Seriously the instruction, skill, etc, and NOT TO MENTION the camerawork, production quality, sound quality, and overall editing of this show is such high budget, I love it. You guys do such great work.
For what it's worth.....I never have my clutch pulled in going down a hill...ever! I'm in 1st or 2nd, depending on the steepness. If need be, I can pull the clutch in. I love engine braking. I find it extremely reliable. Also, the line you take is so key. Fully agree that your eyes need to be forward but choosing or deciding to cross over the center of the road or trail can present true problems. The center is where thew rubble is, the loose stuff. The rider needs to be very very aware of this, as it is most likely to pitch your front wheel if you are not prepared. I ride a 650 dual sport and a 250 dual sport. They handle different. Know your bike.
These are great tips. I think that if a person has a lot of practice (drills!) understanding the role and function of the brakes, this can help give the confidence to “roll with it” through the center of the hill. Another big point is what Chris Birch says: there’s a big difference between “out of control” and going a bit faster than you’d like. Most of us are probably prone to equating those two things, but after hearing him say that, I’ve grown comfortable that they are not at all the same thing.
Found myself in a challenging (for me) downhill situation this weekend, and I thought back to this video. Worked a treat! Made it down without falling and felt elated at successfully accomplishing the task. Thank you Bret!
Hey man, I love your videos but I gotta say something that contradicts your advice on this one. When coasting down a steep hill off road DONT pull in the clutch, here's why, rear traction is constantly bouncing between 0-100%, with the brake you either have to brake lightly or it will lock the tire. If you engine brake you will keep that rear wheel moving and you can control your speed with the throttle AND the rear brake. You want the throttle to dictate how fast the rear wheel turns, because traction changes so fast on dirt depending on rocks, bumps, momentum, etc, the rear brake just wants to lock. I learned this lesson the hard way last week. Stay safe everyone and again love your channel man, I've learned so much, thank you
Not to mention the light constant pressure on front brakes that may cause an overheat and when needed surprise, don't brake as much as you need it to. Glad someone pointed the clutch out
Clutch in... that was my problem recently when I went down a hill and was all herky-jerky with the throttle as I descended. I came here to watch this video again to see what what was my problem, and there it was... clutch in.| Thanks, Bret, your videos are superb.
Awesome video, great quality and instruction. One mistake I've seen with beginners is going down loose terrain with too much brake pressure, causing the bike to deflect, bounce and buck instead of "float" over the loose debris. Easing some brake pressure for a micro-second helps. It's all about steady, gentle pressure to stabilize only, trusting your bike and "gliding" smoothly down. Again, outstanding vid.
Thanks for the great tips. Did a little offroad with a downhill situation this morning. From now on, my strategy is looking far ahead, planning where to land it, clutch in and slight break pressure, or 1st gear engine brake. Don't panic and grab the breaks, especially the front one.
I have watched , and re-watched some, all of your videos and I ride a bit. I just needed to take a moment to thank you for; making, sharing and getting this info out there for us all. And you DO a GREAT job on these this isn’t iPhone quality videos. So, thank you for the ; info, time and effort.
About the helmet and clutch in technique. Helmet: I often will not completely undo my helmet strap. I leave it threaded through the D-rings with just enough slack to clear my chin and nose. I pull forward on the straps to put the helmet on while the straps are laced, then I give it a tug on the strap to snug it up. When done right the tug happens as I pull my hand away from the helmet or after I start rolling. A time saving trick I learned teaching. Clutch in: the truth is in the details. I hold the clutch in so that I have compression braking or acceleration ready when I need it. My gear selection is low enough to allow strong acceleration but not cause skidding if I release the clutch. Brakes are the most precise way to control speed and avoid a stall. If I am "riding" down hills I am normally on the gas, coasting or on the brakes. The engine is to make the bike go, the brakes make it slow. My goal is control... There are a lot of considerations to riding down hills and this is just a general process of what "I" do. There is so much more but I hope this clears up any confusion.
You are totally right, fear is the thing that you need to master first. I was going down hill and fear caught onto me and I wound up cartwheeling the bike and breaking my wrist and the engine case. Thanks for the video!
50% will be the same to look in front at about 4-5meters to be ready for any obstacle that is coming, the other 50% is to manage the extra weight plus the fact that you'll put more weight on the front suspension since you can't move as free because of the pillion. I did some gnarly small creeks descents with pillion side luggage like this and didn't fall, the secret is to slow a bit to manage the direction changes better, my 2 cents, I hope it helped :) P.S. must have a decent bashplate to protect the engine, I hit mine pretty bad, but I saved the engine :D
It was several videos back but Brett has indeed made a great video on two-up riding off road. Look through Mototrek's channel and you should find it. I had never really considered two-up off road before his video. I think you'll enjoy it.
So last week, downhill.. mixed gravel/mud .. clutch out, engine breaking on first gear.. and the bike kept getting speed - used front brake as recommended here and helped a bit.. but every time I'd do clutch in, the bike will get more speed that I needed/wanted .. good thing I survived lol
I don’t know the hills your going down but the rear break is your #1 friend. Using slightly too much front brake will make you go over the bars. Engine breaking is not very recommending because it puts too much weight on the front tire and you want your weight at the rear so the front tire doesn’t wash out. Other than that I don’t think your going “too fast” down the hill. it’s probably safer to learn how to go down hills at normal/fast speeds than try do all of that and at super slow speed and risk dropping it or high siding.
I've been around the channel from the early stages, glad to see the channel's growth. Great information streamlined for the audience, top notch production. Keep it up.
Thank you so much for this video. This something I struggle with, I at times fear the down Hill I am on. So needed this, I just hope I can remember it all when I find myself there. Keep up with the great videos.
Recently, when I was in a mountainous area I used to switch off the engine going on a long downhills. Even off-road (if it is not a case of a hellish hard enduro of course). Sometimes it is possible to ride 15 or 20 minutes without engine with the speed about 20-50 km/h. The record is almost 11 kms downhill without engine. No reason to hold the clutch for nothing. Like this you have a new feeling of a motorbike. No noise, only gravel and brake sound.
The ABS on my 1290SA is absolutely extraordinary. It’s light years away from the Gen1 ABS I had on my R1100GS all those years ago. I’ve been down very, very steep offroad tracks using only the front ABS with the clutch disengaged and no rear brake. It really is a wonder of modern engineering.
Great advice ! But where I struggle most downhill is when you get to bigger rocks like in your "gnarly gravel / river rock" video - so when I feel the rocks can actually bring the bike to a stop or a least make you loose momentum. I feel that in that case the gravity does not play in your favour because it can easily make your bike fall to a side due to the high center of gravity. I had a case like that and I decided to go downhill with the engine turned off so that I could use the clutch as rear wheel brake, keeping my both feet available to step down.
You bet it's fear! And fear makes me slow down, which makes the descent even worse.... Alas, it's a conundrum and I am practising, albeit without a smile on my face. Great video. We shall practice more...
Great tips as always Bret! I could have used this video a couple of years ago after 3 downhill drops on the same ride. I was a shattered mess by the end of it! lol
To sum it up. Engine braking or brakes,,, both techniques are correct. There is no "one way" to go down hill. all down hills are different, in length, traction and angle. Not everyone learns the same way and not everyone has the same bike configuration. Take Bret's video and use what is applicable to your needs. Try it, and use it if it works for you, if not, keep doing what you're doing. Techniques are like ass-holes,, everybody has one!
My girlfriend lives on the top of a 22% inclination-100 meters long nasty dirt climb, it looks almost like a dry river with 10 cm rocks, no gravel but dirt instead. She always say goodbye at her house door when I leave in my 2016 Africa Twin, I always end in the bottom of the hill not knowing how I got there without crashing, sweating like if I was running a maraton. Your pieces of advice in this video are what had kept me from crashing.
Was stuck on a steep hill on a gravel road with my NC700X, with street tires. I'll tell you, nothing motivates you more than knowing that that's your only way back home.
I found myself watching this video for a similar case. Have some planned moto-camping ahead of me on a CB500F and I know the only way into this camp is a small downhill gravel driveway =/
Once you master using rear and front brake by listening and feeling the tire/gravel interaction, you'll like keeping the clutch pulled in and use if needed as he said. I can take a passenger down or up my curvy, 30 deg sloped gravel driveway on my 750 lb Roadking. Gross weight 1250 lb.
I am guessing the BMW with a drive shaft is the only bike you have ridden? Because the reason you pull the clutch in and roll or coast down hill is to stop the chain reacting with the suspension, as it constantly pulls above and then below the swing arm. If you use this method which is a far better way to get down a hill, then you must be in a gear (clutch in) that is similar to your speed, or you will lock the wheel when you let the clutch out. Another thing that was omitted is that you should never coast like this unless you can see your exit If you can't then the bike must be kept under control using both brakes and engine braking. One more tip from me, if your arms start aching then your not gripping hard enough with your legs.
Totally agree! Also if you DON'T have ABS then compression breaking with the right gear (depending on desired speed) is the only way downhill with both brakes assisting as needed
In my place we deal with both dry and muddy wet downhill roads. And its not just a simple ride coz we have loads like 3 sacks of fertilizers 50kg each and one or two persons on top. Thats a lot of weight for 100cc bike and a difficult terrain.
On modern ABS you can use as much front as you want.... the ABS will never let if free wheel and it will never tuck. I can hold enough pressure on the front to control speed and leave the clutch out at idle. I wouldnt touch the rear brake.
What i found out with the ABS on there is hardly any rear brake when i tried to use it until i realized that the front brake controls both. That is of course after sailing down the hill in absoulte terror with what i thought were no brakes at all, because i barley used the front at the time.
5 лет назад+8
This tutorial is almost a point by point of Downhill MTB. 😅👍
Something I've commented on a few times, but at last he is losing that self-consciousness of hair loss! About time, a first, I think, Bret! Great advice. I'm just so envious of the variety of trails you're able to ride there - wherever that is!
I am in disbelief that you suggest to avoid compression braking. At present, compression braking is the primary method I use to descend, as it's what we're taught to do in a manual transmission 4x4 vehicle. I find that as long as the engine has a drive to the rear wheel, the rear wheel will continue to rotate and maintain traction and a semi-constant speed. If you clutch in and freewheel the rear wheel, only using the rear brake to control the speed, then if the surface suddenly becomes mud or wet clay underneath, then the rear wheel will lock up and may cause the bike to fall over. Having the drive engaged in that situation would not allow complete lockup, as the engine continues to rotate the wheel. Front braking alone without rear braking causes the bike to attempt to pivot around the steering axis, i.e. you firmly press the front brake and the rear of the bike folds around to your left or right. By balancing constant engine braking with some occasional front braking when the speed it too quick, I find gives me the best control over the motorcycle. I haven't had this fail on me yet. I have however been failed by the front brake, where I transitioned onto a slippery surface while holding some front braking pressure, but the surface was so slippery that the front wheel locked up and slid down and sideways. Had I have released the front brake sooner and relied on the compression braking, I would have maintained better control over the bike. As it was, I put my foot down to steady the bike as a 3rd contact point until traction resumed and I could continue descending the steep slope.
I use engine braking and front modulating brake, and rarely use rear brake down hill on rocks. Clutching causes gravity affects and possible speed up allowing bike to accelerate out of control. Which may cause upset at landing upon trying to slow. Butt back on seat or stand back. Descending turn: slow, keeping bike upright, front brake (easy) to maintain front traction. Correct speed for turn entry essential as no hard braking in down hill turn.
Somehow I have never been comfortable with the clutch in method. My bike just gains a lot of speed which I find difficult to manage. My bike and me both get worked out a lot using this method. I prefer to use the engine braking for descend control with feathering of the brake just in case needed.
Same here, I feel like I have more control with a little engine braking and light on the front brake. Maybe I just need to practice more to get a better feel, but I'm always sliding and locking up on loose stuff with clutch in brake only.
Once you master using rear and front brake by listening and feeling the tire/gravel interaction, you'll like keeping the clutch pulled in and use if needed as he said. I can take a passenger down or up my curvy, 30 deg sloped gravel driveway on my 750 lb Roadking. Gross weight 1250 lb.
Lean back. Rear brake as primary. Front brake as secondary. Clutch play and engine brake. Avoid changing tracks too much or sudden turn. Keep the bike center/forward to the downhill direction. Dont risk your life for speed.
#1 for me on my DL1000 is pull the ABS fuse. Off road it will kill you on downhills. The bike will not let you stop on gravel or loose downhills with the abs engaged. Really need a switch on the bars or dash. Its on my short to do list.
I'm by no means a pro at riding off road. In fact I am very new to riding off road with bikes only riding off road for about a year now, but I have done a fair amount of off roading with a 4x4. Riding down a steep hill with your clutch in seems very counter intuitive for me. I almost always have my bike in second or even first gear if its a really steap hill and I compression break the whole way down and will use breaks when needed. I suppose that depends on your bike aswell. I have an R1200 GS that will tractor along at the slowest of speeds. I was taught in 4x4 riding that clutch in on a steep downhill must be avoided as you can control your decent better using compression breaking. So I took that over to bikes and it seems to work just fine for me. 🤷♂️
Bikes and 4x4's are very different beast... I don't drive my GS like I drive my 4x4 and I Don't ride my dirtbike like I drive a rally car. Even camparing 4x4's to all wheel drive rally cars has very little that is shared. Ride how you choose and if it works great... But don't close your mind to other methods.
How well or bad engine breaking works is very dependent on the bike and also the traction of the hill. My 2019 KTM 500 EXC F it works very well to put in 1st and use engine break going very slow down on gravel (any slower and it would get hard to keep balance), but on other bikes it felt lot better to just use breaks only.
@@BretTkacs thanks for the reply man. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was rubbishing your technique. Was just saying it didn't come naturally to me. Ill definitely keep this technique in mind and give it a try sometime.
Excellent video, I really like how you explained how your feet are positioned. We were always taught to never ever use the front brake, well, unless you want to go down. I liked your insight on that.
I always use the front brake, with varying pressure as needed. A friend always used rear brake only. He crashed into a car that stopped quickly, spent 14 months in the hospital before dying.
On tip if you use engine breaking do not use rear break also unless you use the clutch also at same time as you definitely do not want an engine stall as that = locked rear wheel and sliding until you pull the clutch. Also my experience is that 450 and 500 endure bikes are simply impossible to roll start again because of the high compression so stall is really bad as you need to kick start it or use electric start to get engine going again (my WR450 and KTM 500 you can not even roll start on tarmac...).
Yuh know, all my 4X buds all say to place the vehicle in gear (first or second), get rolling and DO NOT touch the clutch just tap the brakes if it is needed. Granted, a 3K lb jeep is not a motorcycle even a heavy adventure bike, but this seems to make the most sense to me. I have never gone down hill in neutral, ok clutch in, ever. An extended hill could munch a set of front brakes even if its just touching. I watch all your vids and have learned so, so much. Your the expert, but I gotta call you on this one.
A 4x is not a motorcycle... Apples and Oranges. Yes I also own a 4x and have had professional training for rally driving and offroading. Different machines, different techniques
On motorcycles you have the added problem with loosing balance and more importantly when using rear break it is very high chance you will stall the engine if you are not using the clutch also . On a bike stalling downhill that means locked rear tire and it will remain locked and unable to start again with rear sliding uncontrollable (on my KTM 500 it is impossible to roll start even on tarmac) which is real bad considering you only have 2 wheels and also need to keep balance... Some bikes is very hard to control using engine break but my new KTM 500 using no rear break and engine breaking works great downhill, but as soon as you use rear break you need to use clutch also to avoid the stalling risk.
Riding downhill is sooo much easier than riding uphill. Might just feel scarier, but gravity will help you clear obstacles with ease that would stop you dead going uphill.
Off topic here but I ride and work high steel rigging, and I would like to say our prayers are with the families dealing with the crane accident in Seattle. With that said rubber side down.
Why wouldn't I want to use compression braking? I heard you say it's not consistent, but freewheeling down a hill has never been my ideal way of riding.
One more reason why you want to avoid compression braking is because if you lock the rear it will kill the engine, and then you have one more thing to think about. This happened to me last weekend.
You quickly mentioned that ABS can get you freewheeling down the hill. Please expand on what ABS, ASC, Enduro, Enduro Pro, Soft, Medium, Hard . . . settings do on rocky downhills and why certain settings are best.
the grip is always mechanical! doing 'clutch in' on downhills is going to have a negative effect on chain driven bikes. surely the GS is a lot different, but in general, this advice is king of catastrophic, because like i said, grip is always mechanical!
Bullshit. Mountainbikes are "clutch in" all the time and the same basics apply there, too. You can also roll downhill in neutral with a turned off engine.
@@mohba01 I'll expand. No - the GS is no different to chain bikes in this respect. Clutch all the way in makes the bike much more stable. The stable bike makes a better platform for front wheel braking without the fear of tucking the front. So you can ride faster, brake harder and feel more confident. It just works. Try it before you bag it out. (and before you bag out people who ride better than you and who are trying to help you ride better, for free...)
@@gasdive Hello ! thanks for the explanation. But i think what you say applies when you are riding a downhill MTB. not for a motorcycle which has rotating mass and a drive train. The disadvantages of shaft-drive is that it is a lot heavier than a chain and absorbs more of the engine’s power before it reaches the rear wheel compared to a chain system BUT STILL has mechanical forces that act when the throttle is opened and closed quickly the bike can rise and squat because the shaft is trying to “climb” the cog on the back wheel. The engineers at BMW will have to /would try to optimize the position of the paralever pivot to the bevel drive system to achieve a good balance between the shaft rotation movement & pitch for the best comfort, control & traction. You will find that the bike will sit at a position of 30%-50% of available travel when under acceleration. And, Today, with current sofwares (like Catia3D) we can figure a 3D in movement to demonstrate the simple and easy way to calculate instant anti-squat during all the travel (during accelerations). Manufacturers won't need anymore to test 10 different solutions to find out what is working or not. LASTLY, When you english speaking parrots comment on motorcycles without knowing wtf you are saying, i have a good laugh. And, you have no business commenting "people who ride better than you" whosoever you are, which is a personal remark. Surely you knew your comment was publicly visible, so you meant for it to be seen by all. Your behavior is similar to construction workers catcalling and whistling at a woman unfortunate enough to merely walk by the job site. just plain cheap, which, probably is true.
Wanted to learn how to ride a mammoth adv bike downhill, what I learned --> "You are going down the hill, one way or the other." 😆 .... JOKES aside, this is extremely helpful. :)
So you say light grip on front brake and clutch in but nothing about the back brake !!! personally I leave the clutch engaged and dab the rear brake when needed so using engine braking to control my decent and rear brake to slow the bike, this is the technique that works for me.
If you drove bicycle as a child, this is something you learned pretty early ( + manual traction control), but that bicycle experience gives you a mental blockade when going uphill, as we usually pushed our bikes next to us
Brett, I feel that the hill shown was not steep enough to explore the techniques described, I am not 100% on letting the bike roll down the hill without compression braking of the engine, as compression braking is the most effective way of maintaining a slow speed without brakes, thus preventing wheel lock. On really steep hills I try and ride in the smoothest part of the track with the least amount of loose rocks, as this keep the rear wheel from skidding, if all fails just ride in the ruts and just paddle down the hill and don't try to steer out of them with speed as the front wheel usually washes out.....breathe and trust the bike....but it is the fear that catches most of us out....
Same here. I find it hard to comprehend without engine braking. The engine brake is like an ABS while descending. Or is it different with big bikes? Mine is a cute 150cc and it flies on descends usually at 2nd or 3rd gear.
Try it. I struggled with down hills for years after I switched to fourstrokes. It took a lot of pestering from my riding buddies and eventually threats before I gave in and tried it. Now I'll happily (as in, I enjoy) ride down hills I couldn't walk down. The engine braking just destabilised the bike. Because the bike wasn't stable, I felt like I was going too fast. So I slowed down, which destabilised the bike more, making me slow down, until I crashed. Now I ride down hills at about the same speed I ride on the flat. (edit typo, autoincorrect had changed 'braking' to 'breaking')
I agree. Engine braking works ok in a car on road but destabilizes the drive tire in dirt. Brakes are much smoother down to a much lower speed than your idle RPM will lug.
If your speed out does the gear the wheel will start to lock up. Most steep hills you will take at such a slow speed, the gear never reached its engine braking point, so why be in it. His method is good, be a n gear but clutch in just in case you need a burst.
You’ve produced a lot of GREAT material thus far and I always learn something new with your vid’s. Have you ever thought about producing a line of tip’s for riders that are off-roaring with DCT bikes like the CRF1000 from 2016 and Up? I often try and adapt what you teach (minus the feathering of the clutch) and I wonder how would YOU adapt your techniques with a DCT.
I’m down with everything ….except I think leaving the bike in gear 1 and letting the engine slow you is the best way of keeping those wheels turning. The excepting is when your slowing to a crawl then it’s time to grab that clutch and two finger that brake.
Had a off road adventure few months ago ( yes, I am beginner motocycle) and encounters a little steep downhill on the way. Stopped and did a U-turn.. Hahahahaha
Seriously the instruction, skill, etc, and NOT TO MENTION the camerawork, production quality, sound quality, and overall editing of this show is such high budget, I love it. You guys do such great work.
Cant second that enough!
I absolutely agree. There needs to be greater promotion of this channel, though I guess the ADV riding community isn’t the largest segment of riders.
Oxibase Its a growing segment.
For what it's worth.....I never have my clutch pulled in going down a hill...ever! I'm in 1st or 2nd, depending on the steepness. If need be, I can pull the clutch in. I love engine braking. I find it extremely reliable. Also, the line you take is so key. Fully agree that your eyes need to be forward but choosing or deciding to cross over the center of the road or trail can present true problems. The center is where thew rubble is, the loose stuff. The rider needs to be very very aware of this, as it is most likely to pitch your front wheel if you are not prepared. I ride a 650 dual sport and a 250 dual sport. They handle different. Know your bike.
These are great tips. I think that if a person has a lot of practice (drills!) understanding the role and function of the brakes, this can help give the confidence to “roll with it” through the center of the hill. Another big point is what Chris Birch says: there’s a big difference between “out of control” and going a bit faster than you’d like. Most of us are probably prone to equating those two things, but after hearing him say that, I’ve grown comfortable that they are not at all the same thing.
"you are gong to the bottom of the hill, one way or the other" that cracked me up.
Found myself in a challenging (for me) downhill situation this weekend, and I thought back to this video. Worked a treat! Made it down without falling and felt elated at successfully accomplishing the task. Thank you Bret!
Hey man, I love your videos but I gotta say something that contradicts your advice on this one. When coasting down a steep hill off road DONT pull in the clutch, here's why, rear traction is constantly bouncing between 0-100%, with the brake you either have to brake lightly or it will lock the tire. If you engine brake you will keep that rear wheel moving and you can control your speed with the throttle AND the rear brake. You want the throttle to dictate how fast the rear wheel turns, because traction changes so fast on dirt depending on rocks, bumps, momentum, etc, the rear brake just wants to lock. I learned this lesson the hard way last week. Stay safe everyone and again love your channel man, I've learned so much, thank you
Not to mention the light constant pressure on front brakes that may cause an overheat and when needed surprise, don't brake as much as you need it to. Glad someone pointed the clutch out
He is simply the best instructor in the world.
Go take a course with him...
Clutch in... that was my problem recently when I went down a hill and was all herky-jerky with the throttle as I descended. I came here to watch this video again to see what what was my problem, and there it was... clutch in.|
Thanks, Bret, your videos are superb.
Awesome video, great quality and instruction. One mistake I've seen with beginners is going down loose terrain with too much brake pressure, causing the bike to deflect, bounce and buck instead of "float" over the loose debris. Easing some brake pressure for a micro-second helps. It's all about steady, gentle pressure to stabilize only, trusting your bike and "gliding" smoothly down. Again, outstanding vid.
Another home run! You are providing the best instruction on the web!
Don’t forget to strap on the helmet! Great vid.
I noticed that also!
Maybe the cap is Snell certified?
Chris Namaste looks like it just might be
Alex Trajano I saw that too😂 But Great Channel 👌🏼
@@chrisnamaste3572 snell certified helmets don't have straps?
Yet another great video! Short, with excellent instruction and no superfluous BS
Glad you liked it, Ron!
Thanks for the great tips. Did a little offroad with a downhill situation this morning. From now on, my strategy is looking far ahead, planning where to land it, clutch in and slight break pressure, or 1st gear engine brake. Don't panic and grab the breaks, especially the front one.
Thanks for giving for right technic for off road downhill rides
I have watched , and re-watched some, all of your videos and I ride a bit. I just needed to take a moment to thank you for; making, sharing and getting this info out there for us all. And you DO a GREAT job on these this isn’t iPhone quality videos. So, thank you for the ; info, time and effort.
Totally agree Brett, fear is the biggest hurdle.👍
Great vid.
Agree
About the helmet and clutch in technique.
Helmet: I often will not completely undo my helmet strap. I leave it threaded through the D-rings with just enough slack to clear my chin and nose. I pull forward on the straps to put the helmet on while the straps are laced, then I give it a tug on the strap to snug it up. When done right the tug happens as I pull my hand away from the helmet or after I start rolling. A time saving trick I learned teaching.
Clutch in: the truth is in the details. I hold the clutch in so that I have compression braking or acceleration ready when I need it.
My gear selection is low enough to allow strong acceleration but not cause skidding if I release the clutch. Brakes are the most precise way to control speed and avoid a stall. If I am "riding" down hills I am normally on the gas, coasting or on the brakes. The engine is to make the bike go, the brakes make it slow. My goal is control...
There are a lot of considerations to riding down hills and this is just a general process of what "I" do.
There is so much more but I hope this clears up any confusion.
Need a love button...
Helmet... Exactly what I did as a courier.
Brakes... Exactly what I do, and I wish I'd been able to explain as clearly.
@@gasdive looks like that makes a total of two of us in this camp :-)
@@BretTkacs haha. We're an exclusive club!
I generally go down a hill in the same gear as uphill. I read it somewhere and it works for both motorcycles and cars
Great video! I really enjoy the instructional videos.
You are totally right, fear is the thing that you need to master first. I was going down hill and fear caught onto me and I wound up cartwheeling the bike and breaking my wrist and the engine case. Thanks for the video!
Very well presented! A definite review every riding season to mentally prepare for those downhill adventures.
Thank you! A question I needed answering for ages already 👍
Nice one! But still waiting for "Off road with passenger" videos! :P
BR, from Hungary
count me in - would like to see some light off-road\forest trails two up
50% will be the same to look in front at about 4-5meters to be ready for any obstacle that is coming, the other 50% is to manage the extra weight plus the fact that you'll put more weight on the front suspension since you can't move as free because of the pillion. I did some gnarly small creeks descents with pillion side luggage like this and didn't fall, the secret is to slow a bit to manage the direction changes better, my 2 cents, I hope it helped :) P.S. must have a decent bashplate to protect the engine, I hit mine pretty bad, but I saved the engine :D
It was several videos back but Brett has indeed made a great video on two-up riding off road. Look through Mototrek's channel and you should find it. I had never really considered two-up off road before his video. I think you'll enjoy it.
@@onemilemore541 i've seen that video! I think, he replyd us on that one, that there will be more! ;)
+1
The last hint is the best. Thanks for the video!
So last week, downhill.. mixed gravel/mud .. clutch out, engine breaking on first gear.. and the bike kept getting speed - used front brake as recommended here and helped a bit.. but every time I'd do clutch in, the bike will get more speed that I needed/wanted .. good thing I survived lol
I don’t know the hills your going down but the rear break is your #1 friend. Using slightly too much front brake will make you go over the bars. Engine breaking is not very recommending because it puts too much weight on the front tire and you want your weight at the rear so the front tire doesn’t wash out. Other than that I don’t think your going “too fast” down the hill. it’s probably safer to learn how to go down hills at normal/fast speeds than try do all of that and at super slow speed and risk dropping it or high siding.
I've been around the channel from the early stages, glad to see the channel's growth. Great information streamlined for the audience, top notch production. Keep it up.
Thank you so much for this video. This something I struggle with, I at times fear the down Hill I am on. So needed this, I just hope I can remember it all when I find myself there. Keep up with the great videos.
Recently, when I was in a mountainous area I used to switch off the engine going on a long downhills. Even off-road (if it is not a case of a hellish hard enduro of course). Sometimes it is possible to ride 15 or 20 minutes without engine with the speed about 20-50 km/h. The record is almost 11 kms downhill without engine. No reason to hold the clutch for nothing. Like this you have a new feeling of a motorbike. No noise, only gravel and brake sound.
The ABS on my 1290SA is absolutely extraordinary. It’s light years away from the Gen1 ABS I had on my R1100GS all those years ago. I’ve been down very, very steep offroad tracks using only the front ABS with the clutch disengaged and no rear brake. It really is a wonder of modern engineering.
Hmmm ur going to the bottom of the hill one way or another....😂
Great advice ! But where I struggle most downhill is when you get to bigger rocks like in your "gnarly gravel / river rock" video - so when I feel the rocks can actually bring the bike to a stop or a least make you loose momentum. I feel that in that case the gravity does not play in your favour because it can easily make your bike fall to a side due to the high center of gravity. I had a case like that and I decided to go downhill with the engine turned off so that I could use the clutch as rear wheel brake, keeping my both feet available to step down.
You bet it's fear! And fear makes me slow down, which makes the descent even worse.... Alas, it's a conundrum and I am practising, albeit without a smile on my face. Great video. We shall practice more...
Bret, I usually make it to the bottom of the hill,"The Other Way"!!!!
Perfect...u r good teacher.its so easy to understand nd apply when we r on these kind of terrain.
Thanx for sharing this.👍🏻
Great tips as always Bret! I could have used this video a couple of years ago after 3 downhill drops on the same ride. I was a shattered mess by the end of it! lol
To sum it up. Engine braking or brakes,,, both techniques are correct. There is no "one way" to go down hill. all down hills are different, in length, traction and angle. Not everyone learns the same way and not everyone has the same bike configuration. Take Bret's video and use what is applicable to your needs. Try it, and use it if it works for you, if not, keep doing what you're doing. Techniques are like ass-holes,, everybody has one!
Good advice with the "landing zone"!
My girlfriend lives on the top of a 22% inclination-100 meters long nasty dirt climb, it looks almost like a dry river with 10 cm rocks, no gravel but dirt instead. She always say goodbye at her house door when I leave in my 2016 Africa Twin, I always end in the bottom of the hill not knowing how I got there without crashing, sweating like if I was running a maraton.
Your pieces of advice in this video are what had kept me from crashing.
Was stuck on a steep hill on a gravel road with my NC700X, with street tires.
I'll tell you, nothing motivates you more than knowing that that's your only way back home.
I found myself watching this video for a similar case. Have some planned moto-camping ahead of me on a CB500F and I know the only way into this camp is a small downhill gravel driveway =/
Once you master using rear and front brake by listening and feeling the tire/gravel interaction, you'll like keeping the clutch pulled in and use if needed as he said. I can take a passenger down or up my curvy, 30 deg sloped gravel driveway on my 750 lb Roadking. Gross weight 1250 lb.
One of the best moto trainer 🎉👍🙏
I am guessing the BMW with a drive shaft is the only bike you have ridden? Because the reason you pull the clutch in and roll or coast down hill is to stop the chain reacting with the suspension, as it constantly pulls above and then below the swing arm. If you use this method which is a far better way to get down a hill, then you must be in a gear (clutch in) that is similar to your speed, or you will lock the wheel when you let the clutch out. Another thing that was omitted is that you should never coast like this unless you can see your exit If you can't then the bike must be kept under control using both brakes and engine braking. One more tip from me, if your arms start aching then your not gripping hard enough with your legs.
Totally agree! Also if you DON'T have ABS then compression breaking with the right gear (depending on desired speed) is the only way downhill with both brakes assisting as needed
My first lesson. Thanks
Great job explaining so well. Overall so good. I subscribe the first few minutes I watched.
Love the product placement and the instruction.
Unfortunately we don't have any sponsors at this point. :(
@@MOTOTREK They are missing out!
Great video. Will keep pushing for the 2 up riding version.
In my place we deal with both dry and muddy wet downhill roads. And its not just a simple ride coz we have loads like 3 sacks of fertilizers 50kg each and one or two persons on top. Thats a lot of weight for 100cc bike and a difficult terrain.
On modern ABS you can use as much front as you want.... the ABS will never let if free wheel and it will never tuck. I can hold enough pressure on the front to control speed and leave the clutch out at idle. I wouldnt touch the rear brake.
Nerb1 first thing i do when i leave the pavement is turn the ABS and TCS off. Better feedback and prediction of the bike in my opinion.
What i found out with the ABS on there is hardly any rear brake when i tried to use it until i realized that the front brake controls both. That is of course after sailing down the hill in absoulte terror with what i thought were no brakes at all, because i barley used the front at the time.
This tutorial is almost a point by point of Downhill MTB. 😅👍
I do appreciate your time to educate us 🥇👌🏻
I learn alot from this awesome channel
... thank you 👏🏻 💐 🇸🇦
Love that Ridge jacket and Expedition H2O boots 👍
Holy Sh*t! You showed the top of your head! Always seems magical when you are wearing a helmet one second and a hat the next.
Something I've commented on a few times, but at last he is losing that self-consciousness of hair loss! About time, a first, I think, Bret!
Great advice.
I'm just so envious of the variety of trails you're able to ride there - wherever that is!
I am in disbelief that you suggest to avoid compression braking.
At present, compression braking is the primary method I use to descend, as it's what we're taught to do in a manual transmission 4x4 vehicle.
I find that as long as the engine has a drive to the rear wheel, the rear wheel will continue to rotate and maintain traction and a semi-constant speed.
If you clutch in and freewheel the rear wheel, only using the rear brake to control the speed, then if the surface suddenly becomes mud or wet clay underneath, then the rear wheel will lock up and may cause the bike to fall over. Having the drive engaged in that situation would not allow complete lockup, as the engine continues to rotate the wheel.
Front braking alone without rear braking causes the bike to attempt to pivot around the steering axis, i.e. you firmly press the front brake and the rear of the bike folds around to your left or right.
By balancing constant engine braking with some occasional front braking when the speed it too quick, I find gives me the best control over the motorcycle.
I haven't had this fail on me yet.
I have however been failed by the front brake, where I transitioned onto a slippery surface while holding some front braking pressure, but the surface was so slippery that the front wheel locked up and slid down and sideways. Had I have released the front brake sooner and relied on the compression braking, I would have maintained better control over the bike.
As it was, I put my foot down to steady the bike as a 3rd contact point until traction resumed and I could continue descending the steep slope.
Agreed.
I use engine braking and front modulating brake, and rarely use rear brake down hill on rocks. Clutching causes gravity affects and possible speed up allowing bike to accelerate out of control. Which may cause upset at landing upon trying to slow. Butt back on seat or stand back. Descending turn: slow, keeping bike upright, front brake (easy) to maintain front traction. Correct speed for turn entry essential as no hard braking in down hill turn.
Somehow I have never been comfortable with the clutch in method. My bike just gains a lot of speed which I find difficult to manage. My bike and me both get worked out a lot using this method. I prefer to use the engine braking for descend control with feathering of the brake just in case needed.
Same here, I feel like I have more control with a little engine braking and light on the front brake. Maybe I just need to practice more to get a better feel, but I'm always sliding and locking up on loose stuff with clutch in brake only.
As recommended on another video, I note.
Once you master using rear and front brake by listening and feeling the tire/gravel interaction, you'll like keeping the clutch pulled in and use if needed as he said. I can take a passenger down or up my curvy, 30 deg sloped gravel driveway on my 750 lb Roadking. Gross weight 1250 lb.
@@USA-GreedyMenOfNoIntegrity On really steep gradients, say above 30 degrees, would you use engine braking or still clutch in?
Lean back. Rear brake as primary. Front brake as secondary. Clutch play and engine brake. Avoid changing tracks too much or sudden turn. Keep the bike center/forward to the downhill direction. Dont risk your life for speed.
#1 for me on my DL1000 is pull the ABS fuse. Off road it will kill you on downhills. The bike will not let you stop on gravel or loose downhills with the abs engaged. Really need a switch on the bars or dash. Its on my short to do list.
I'm by no means a pro at riding off road. In fact I am very new to riding off road with bikes only riding off road for about a year now, but I have done a fair amount of off roading with a 4x4. Riding down a steep hill with your clutch in seems very counter intuitive for me. I almost always have my bike in second or even first gear if its a really steap hill and I compression break the whole way down and will use breaks when needed. I suppose that depends on your bike aswell. I have an R1200 GS that will tractor along at the slowest of speeds. I was taught in 4x4 riding that clutch in on a steep downhill must be avoided as you can control your decent better using compression breaking. So I took that over to bikes and it seems to work just fine for me. 🤷♂️
Bikes and 4x4's are very different beast... I don't drive my GS like I drive my 4x4 and I Don't ride my dirtbike like I drive a rally car.
Even camparing 4x4's to all wheel drive rally cars has very little that is shared.
Ride how you choose and if it works great... But don't close your mind to other methods.
How well or bad engine breaking works is very dependent on the bike and also the traction of the hill. My 2019 KTM 500 EXC F it works very well to put in 1st and use engine break going very slow down on gravel (any slower and it would get hard to keep balance), but on other bikes it felt lot better to just use breaks only.
@@BretTkacs thanks for the reply man. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was rubbishing your technique. Was just saying it didn't come naturally to me. Ill definitely keep this technique in mind and give it a try sometime.
CROM approves...(and don't forget to have fun AND strap that helmet @5:50).
Excellent video, I really like how you explained how your feet are positioned. We were always taught to never ever use the front brake, well, unless you want to go down. I liked your insight on that.
I always use the front brake, with varying pressure as needed. A friend always used rear brake only. He crashed into a car that stopped quickly, spent 14 months in the hospital before dying.
On tip if you use engine breaking do not use rear break also unless you use the clutch also at same time as you definitely do not want an engine stall as that = locked rear wheel and sliding until you pull the clutch. Also my experience is that 450 and 500 endure bikes are simply impossible to roll start again because of the high compression so stall is really bad as you need to kick start it or use electric start to get engine going again (my WR450 and KTM 500 you can not even roll start on tarmac...).
Yuh know, all my 4X buds all say to place the vehicle in gear (first or second), get rolling and DO NOT touch the clutch just tap the brakes if it is needed. Granted, a 3K lb jeep is not a motorcycle even a heavy adventure bike, but this seems to make the most sense to me. I have never gone down hill in neutral, ok clutch in, ever. An extended hill could munch a set of front brakes even if its just touching. I watch all your vids and have learned so, so much. Your the expert, but I gotta call you on this one.
A 4x is not a motorcycle... Apples and Oranges. Yes I also own a 4x and have had professional training for rally driving and offroading. Different machines, different techniques
Gotcha, thanks.
@@BretTkacs there needs to be a level higher that like. I love that comment. Bikes aren't cars.
On motorcycles you have the added problem with loosing balance and more importantly when using rear break it is very high chance you will stall the engine if you are not using the clutch also . On a bike stalling downhill that means locked rear tire and it will remain locked and unable to start again with rear sliding uncontrollable (on my KTM 500 it is impossible to roll start even on tarmac) which is real bad considering you only have 2 wheels and also need to keep balance... Some bikes is very hard to control using engine break but my new KTM 500 using no rear break and engine breaking works great downhill, but as soon as you use rear break you need to use clutch also to avoid the stalling risk.
Excellent Bret!! Thanks for share
Matt Joergensen, we are waiting on that album! :)
Thanks a lot !
Very informative ! 🙂👍
Riding downhill is sooo much easier than riding uphill. Might just feel scarier, but gravity will help you clear obstacles with ease that would stop you dead going uphill.
Awesome, thank you
The statement "You're Going down the hill one way or another" !!!
From about forty?
Love this Brett.
Off topic here but I ride and work high steel rigging, and I would like to say our prayers are with the families dealing with the crane accident in Seattle. With that said rubber side down.
Dont forget to smile!!! Best tip ever!!! 🤣🤣🤣
I love the work you do. I also gave you a nickname "The Proffesor" 😁 . Super useful videos!
Ah Professor! ...On the Drumkit. Just like Neil Peart who also rides Adventure bikes!!
Very nice brother thanks from India
you said best ideas
Thanks, I really love this channel! Can gain tips even as a enduro rider that uses way lighter bikes.
Love your videos!
Why wouldn't I want to use compression braking? I heard you say it's not consistent, but freewheeling down a hill has never been my ideal way of riding.
One more reason why you want to avoid compression braking is because if you lock the rear it will kill the engine, and then you have one more thing to think about. This happened to me last weekend.
Always.. smile cheers
You quickly mentioned that ABS can get you freewheeling down the hill. Please expand on what ABS, ASC, Enduro, Enduro Pro, Soft, Medium, Hard . . . settings do on rocky downhills and why certain settings are best.
Where was your channel when I got my GS in 2014? This is so good.
Excellent... learned something very important
Thank you! 😊😊
the grip is always mechanical! doing 'clutch in' on downhills is going to have a negative effect on chain driven bikes. surely the GS is a lot different, but in general, this advice is king of catastrophic, because like i said, grip is always mechanical!
Bullshit. Mountainbikes are "clutch in" all the time and the same basics apply there, too.
You can also roll downhill in neutral with a turned off engine.
No.
Just try it.
Do you agree that motorbikes are not granted a special and unique benefit to escape the laws of the physics ? or are you a going to disagree ?
@@mohba01 I'll expand. No - the GS is no different to chain bikes in this respect. Clutch all the way in makes the bike much more stable. The stable bike makes a better platform for front wheel braking without the fear of tucking the front. So you can ride faster, brake harder and feel more confident.
It just works. Try it before you bag it out. (and before you bag out people who ride better than you and who are trying to help you ride better, for free...)
@@gasdive Hello ! thanks for the explanation. But i think what you say applies when you are riding a downhill MTB. not for a motorcycle which has rotating mass and a drive train. The disadvantages of shaft-drive is that it is a lot heavier than a chain and absorbs more of the engine’s power before it reaches the rear wheel compared to a chain system BUT STILL has mechanical forces that act when the throttle is opened and closed quickly the bike can rise and squat because the shaft is trying to “climb” the cog on the back wheel. The engineers at BMW will have to /would try to optimize the position of the paralever pivot to the bevel drive system to achieve a good balance between the shaft rotation movement & pitch for the best comfort, control & traction. You will find that the bike will sit at a position of 30%-50% of available travel when under acceleration. And, Today, with current sofwares (like Catia3D) we can figure a 3D in movement to demonstrate the simple and easy way to calculate instant anti-squat during all the travel (during accelerations).
Manufacturers won't need anymore to test 10 different solutions to find out what is working or not. LASTLY, When you english speaking parrots comment on motorcycles without knowing wtf you are saying, i have a good laugh. And, you have no business commenting "people who ride better than you" whosoever you are, which is a personal remark. Surely you knew your comment was publicly visible, so you meant for it to be seen by all. Your behavior is similar to construction workers catcalling and whistling at a woman unfortunate enough to merely walk by the job site. just plain cheap, which, probably is true.
Wanted to learn how to ride a mammoth adv bike downhill, what I learned --> "You are going down the hill, one way or the other." 😆 .... JOKES aside, this is extremely helpful. :)
So you say light grip on front brake and clutch in but nothing about the back brake !!! personally I leave the clutch engaged and dab the rear brake when needed so using engine braking to control my decent and rear brake to slow the bike, this is the technique that works for me.
So cool you ride my exact bike
Still the coolest drummer/perc ever
If you drove bicycle as a child, this is something you learned pretty early ( + manual traction control), but that bicycle experience gives you a mental blockade when going uphill, as we usually pushed our bikes next to us
Brett, I feel that the hill shown was not steep enough to explore the techniques described, I am not 100% on letting the bike roll down the hill without compression braking of the engine, as compression braking is the most effective way of maintaining a slow speed without brakes, thus preventing wheel lock. On really steep hills I try and ride in the smoothest part of the track with the least amount of loose rocks, as this keep the rear wheel from skidding, if all fails just ride in the ruts and just paddle down the hill and don't try to steer out of them with speed as the front wheel usually washes out.....breathe and trust the bike....but it is the fear that catches most of us out....
Same here. I find it hard to comprehend without engine braking. The engine brake is like an ABS while descending. Or is it different with big bikes? Mine is a cute 150cc and it flies on descends usually at 2nd or 3rd gear.
Try it.
I struggled with down hills for years after I switched to fourstrokes. It took a lot of pestering from my riding buddies and eventually threats before I gave in and tried it.
Now I'll happily (as in, I enjoy) ride down hills I couldn't walk down.
The engine braking just destabilised the bike. Because the bike wasn't stable, I felt like I was going too fast. So I slowed down, which destabilised the bike more, making me slow down, until I crashed.
Now I ride down hills at about the same speed I ride on the flat.
(edit typo, autoincorrect had changed 'braking' to 'breaking')
I agree. Engine braking works ok in a car on road but destabilizes the drive tire in dirt. Brakes are much smoother down to a much lower speed than your idle RPM will lug.
Mountain bikes manage without engine braking
If your speed out does the gear the wheel will start to lock up. Most steep hills you will take at such a slow speed, the gear never reached its engine braking point, so why be in it. His method is good, be a n gear but clutch in just in case you need a burst.
Appreciation goes to the word ‘dont forget to smile’
That's four words!
the tessellater true🙏
Lovin' your work Best👍
Awesome video!
You’ve produced a lot of GREAT material thus far and I always learn something new with your vid’s. Have you ever thought about producing a line of tip’s for riders that are off-roaring with DCT bikes like the CRF1000 from 2016 and Up? I often try and adapt what you teach (minus the feathering of the clutch) and I wonder how would YOU adapt your techniques with a DCT.
Yes, Peter, we have. DCT is on our to-do list. Thanks for the feedback.
Hello from India !
Great video Sir... Will try next time I go off-road ! Cheers 👍
Perferct, as always. Thank you
I’m down with everything ….except I think leaving the bike in gear 1 and letting the engine slow you is the best way of keeping those wheels turning. The excepting is when your slowing to a crawl then it’s time to grab that clutch and two finger that brake.
The road is fine nothing to worry
how have i just found this channel..wow
and never forget to smile!!! ;-)
Great video as usual . The mental attitude explanation was very good
Had a off road adventure few months ago ( yes, I am beginner motocycle) and encounters a little steep downhill on the way. Stopped and did a U-turn.. Hahahahaha