Bonus Question. I think it’s option 3: Clone can become a copy of Setassan Champion but it will be only an enchantment. The dies trigger will say “Bring this card back to the battlefield. It is only an enchantment.” When Clone changes zones (in the process of dying, leaves the battlefield and boomerangs back), it will drop all of the text of Enduring Curiosity so it will have its own Clone effect. Setessan is a creature and thus meets the criteria for the Clone enter. The triggered ability is still tied to the Clone card itself and will continue to overwrite the type line of Cloned Champion, setting it to just enchantment. Furthermore, Cloned Champion will see itself as an enchantment and draw a card and put a counter on itself, even though the +1 counter serves no purpose until it is somehow becomes a creature again. This is similar to aristocrats seeing itself/everything die in a boardwipe or Soul Sisters gaining you life in a mass blink effect like Eerie Interlude
Wouldn't see itself. In your examples, they only trigger due to the way the effects work. If it did see itself in this case, that would mean soul warden would gain you a life when it enters, etc.
@@justkarkat9575 Soul Warden specifically excludes itself (when. Another creature…). My thinking is along the lines of how discard triggers were phrased for Amonkhet. Cards like Archfiend of Ifnier say “when you cycle or discard…” to remove any ambiguity around does cycling count towards discard triggers. Similarly for Constellation triggers on Ench. Creatures
@@andimayer1119 Yup, a lot of cards are worded with "another" so that they don't trigger themselves. I remember all the confusion around Kappa Cannoneer when it was first printed with the wording "Whenever an artifact" and a lot of people didn't know it triggered itself. Now it has been updated to say 'Whenever Kappa Cannoneer or another artifact".
Very cool episode again on the layer system. BQ: It comes back as a clone with the changing type trigger (it'll only exist as an enchantment), so it can become a non-creature-enchantment-only copy of Setessan Champion and proceed to gain a +1/+1 counter because of the Constellation trigger.
You got it, and yeah, Layers are just a near endless source of confusion in Commander. I really didn't expect to get that much out of Duskmourn, though there is maybe 1 or 2 more things I could do.
Hah, I thought it was reading the card explain the card as per the text in the Glimmer - the copy was a creature - it died - it returns BUT IT'S NOT A CREATURE, just an enchantment. So the clone can't be a creature when it returns - my guess is that it enters just as an enchantment and that it triggers constellation.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel What if Volrath, the Shapestealer copies Enduring Curiosity and dies? Volrath returns as an enchantment, but when using his clone ability he would return to being a creature while the ability's effect lasts?
@@pessiniable Heh, yup, you could pull something like that off and that's how it would play out. Just till EoT, he would override the Enduring effect that brought him back, but then after that Cleanup Step, back to an Enchantment.
I know lands can have counters from things like raging ravine or graft. So i see no reason an enchantment couldnt have a counter on it. My assumption is its an enchantment version of setassan with not creature type but has a counter on it and youve drawn a card
So you could kind of think about the copiable characteristics of the card as in a vacuum, in any other game when nothing else is out on the battlefield and nothing else has happened to the card, then that is what would be stats and qualities of the copy of it? Like if you had a non creature version of that Curiosity and then flickered it, it would be back to being a creature when it comes back, so that's what to copy of it will be too.
Yeah, to an extent. Copiable Values have gotten a little more complex over the last few years of Magic with things like Prototype and Mutate, but in general that is a solid way to think about it for 99% of the time.
Also you should remember that copy effects (and any modifications made to the characteristics of a card during that process) are also copiable. If you cast Yargle, Glutton of Urborg, then cast Spark Double on it, the result is a non-legendary Yargle with a +1/+1 counter. If you then cast Clone and copy the Spark Double, the result is a non legendary Yargle with no +1/+1 counter. The copy effect is copied. The "except it isn't legendary" is a change to the characteristics made during the copying process, so it is copied. The "it enters with an additional +1/+1 counter" is a modification made during the copying process, but since it's not a change to the characteristics, it won't be copied. 707.9b: Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final set of values for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values of the copy. 707.9e: Some replacement effects that generate copy effects include an exception that's an additional effect rather than a modification of the affected object's characteristics. If another copy effect is applied to that object after applying the copy effect with that exception, the exception's effect doesn't happen.
@@seandun7083 Yup, I've been wanting to make a video a while on this. I have a Urza, Prince of Kroog deck and I run cards like Phyrexian Metamorph and Sculpting Steel and the trick I always use is that I have them enter as a copy of nothing (Urza's +2/+2 keeps the Metamorph alive) so that when I use his 6 mana Activated Ability on them I can have the tokens come in as a copy of anything those cards could come in as, but if I had the originals come in as something, every time I use Urza's ability on them they'd have to be tokens of that thing. Super cool tech but I always have to explain it to my opponents.
Clone can return, It will be a non-creature enchantment, Since the champions ability does not say "another" it will see itself enter. It would get counters, even though it isn't a creature, every permanent can get any kind of counter if you can find a way.
I am fairly sure that the answer to the bonus is, it enters as a copy of setessan champion, but a non creature enchantment with no subtypes. It doesnt see itself, thats not how it works in this case. AFAIK spells dont see themselves enter, otherwise soul warden would gain 1 life on enter, for example. If future enchantments are played, it would get a +1+1 counter though, as no rule states a non creature permanent cannot have +1+1 counters, just as a planeswalker with giadas gift still has loyalty counters
Very, very close. Got every part except about it seeing itself enter and triggering its own ability. It actually would net you the card draw and the +1/+1 counter on itself.
Soul Warden is a semi-optimal example because the Trigger on Soul Warden is "whenever ANOTHER creature...." so it is correct that it would Not Trigger, but the Card says that already ;). Constellation on the other Hand Trigger from itself, but "normaly" setessan champ is not an enchantment so the text doesn't mentioned itself (but as is not stateted as "another" IT would Trigger If setessan champ would enter as an enchantment. Permanents can have +1/+1
Main Situation Recap: You control Enduring Curiosity, which is currently a creature. You cast Clone and choose to copy Enduring Curiosity with it. The Clone copy of Enduring Curiosity dies, triggering its ability to return to the battlefield. Now, the big question: Can the returning Clone come back as a copy of Setessan Champion (a non-enchantment creature)? And if so, what form will it take? Let's go through this: 1. Can you have Clone come back as a copy of Setessan Champion? Yes, you can have Clone come back as a copy of Setessan Champion. When Clone returns from the graveyard, it retains its cloning ability, so it can copy any creature on the battlefield. There's no restriction saying the clone has to copy an enchantment, even though it was previously copying Enduring Curiosity. 2. What form will it take when it copies Setessan Champion? It will come back as a Creature - Human Warrior. Since Setessan Champion is purely a creature (with no enchantment type), the Clone will enter as a copy of it in that form: a creature and not an enchantment. This means it will be a Human Warrior and have all of the Champion's abilities, but it will not be an enchantment or any other type. 3. Would it trigger the Champion's own ability when entering the battlefield? No, it would not trigger Setessan Champion's own ability. That ability specifically cares about enchantments entering the battlefield, and in this case, Clone would be entering the battlefield as just a creature (Human Warrior), not an enchantment. So no card draw from the Champion's ability. 4. Follow-up: What if it came back as a non-creature enchantment? If, hypothetically, the Clone came back as a non-creature enchantment version of something (but not in this case with Setessan Champion), it would trigger abilities like Setessan Champion's that care about enchantments entering the battlefield. 5. Could it get a +1/+1 counter as a non-creature? No, it cannot get a +1/+1 counter if it’s a non-creature. Only creatures can have +1/+1 counters, so if Clone somehow came back as a non-creature enchantment, it would not be able to receive a +1/+1 counter. Conclusion Recap: Clone can come back as a copy of Setessan Champion. It would be a creature - Human Warrior, not an enchantment. It would not trigger Setessan Champion's "enchantment entering" ability. If it somehow entered as a non-creature enchantment, it could trigger abilities that care about enchantments, but it couldn’t get +1/+1 counters as a non-creature. I hope this untangles the web of questions and gets your brain working on more awesome Magic interactions! Let me know if you want to dive into anything else. Amm i rite
It would come back as a non-creature enchantment version of the champion. It has the dies trigger making it back as an enchantment and the enters trigger making it a copy of a creature. Both apply, so it will be a copy of a creature but with its type changed to enchantment. It entering as an enchantment will trigger both its own constellation ability and that of your original champion, each letting you draw a card and put a counter on it. You will still put a counter on the non-creature copy, +1/+1 counters can be places on any permanent, they just don't have any inherent effect unless placed on a creature. For an example look at Heliod, Sun Crowned. Heliod has 'Whenever you gain life, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature or enchantment you control.'
Peter got you with the reply. It actually will come back and despite being a non-enchantment creature as Clone and despite coming in as a copy of the Champion that is also a non-enchantment creature, it will end up being a non-creature enchantment. It will have the ability and trigger itself.
That's all good. I wouldn't be making these videos if I assumed that a majority of Commander players would know how all of these crazy scenarios would play out. A lot of the comments you're seeing are correct, the Clone could come back in as the Champion, but it would be a creatureless enchantment and trigger it's own ETB.
Bonus Question.
I think it’s option 3: Clone can become a copy of Setassan Champion but it will be only an enchantment.
The dies trigger will say “Bring this card back to the battlefield. It is only an enchantment.”
When Clone changes zones (in the process of dying, leaves the battlefield and boomerangs back), it will drop all of the text of Enduring Curiosity so it will have its own Clone effect. Setessan is a creature and thus meets the criteria for the Clone enter.
The triggered ability is still tied to the Clone card itself and will continue to overwrite the type line of Cloned Champion, setting it to just enchantment.
Furthermore, Cloned Champion will see itself as an enchantment and draw a card and put a counter on itself, even though the +1 counter serves no purpose until it is somehow becomes a creature again.
This is similar to aristocrats seeing itself/everything die in a boardwipe or Soul Sisters gaining you life in a mass blink effect like Eerie Interlude
Wouldn't see itself. In your examples, they only trigger due to the way the effects work. If it did see itself in this case, that would mean soul warden would gain you a life when it enters, etc.
@@justkarkat9575 Nah it wouldn't. Soul Warden reads: Whenever another creature enters, you gain 1 life.
@@justkarkat9575 Soul Warden specifically excludes itself (when. Another creature…).
My thinking is along the lines of how discard triggers were phrased for Amonkhet. Cards like Archfiend of Ifnier say “when you cycle or discard…” to remove any ambiguity around does cycling count towards discard triggers. Similarly for Constellation triggers on Ench. Creatures
Very well done and very detailed breakdown. You got it!
@@andimayer1119 Yup, a lot of cards are worded with "another" so that they don't trigger themselves. I remember all the confusion around Kappa Cannoneer when it was first printed with the wording "Whenever an artifact" and a lot of people didn't know it triggered itself. Now it has been updated to say 'Whenever Kappa Cannoneer or another artifact".
Dang, what a curveball. I had no clue it would be bound by those rules bringing it back.
@@JeffCarpenter-c1i For sure, I knew it would be a tricky thing for a whole lot of players.
Very cool episode again on the layer system.
BQ: It comes back as a clone with the changing type trigger (it'll only exist as an enchantment), so it can become a non-creature-enchantment-only copy of Setessan Champion and proceed to gain a +1/+1 counter because of the Constellation trigger.
You got it, and yeah, Layers are just a near endless source of confusion in Commander. I really didn't expect to get that much out of Duskmourn, though there is maybe 1 or 2 more things I could do.
Hah, I thought it was reading the card explain the card as per the text in the Glimmer - the copy was a creature - it died - it returns BUT IT'S NOT A CREATURE, just an enchantment.
So the clone can't be a creature when it returns - my guess is that it enters just as an enchantment and that it triggers constellation.
Yup, you got it, including that it will trigger itself.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel
What if Volrath, the Shapestealer copies Enduring Curiosity and dies? Volrath returns as an enchantment, but when using his clone ability he would return to being a creature while the ability's effect lasts?
@@pessiniable Heh, yup, you could pull something like that off and that's how it would play out. Just till EoT, he would override the Enduring effect that brought him back, but then after that Cleanup Step, back to an Enchantment.
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel
Thank you very much for the answer.
This interaction fits well in my deck : )
As soon as I find Danse of the Manse all these counters are gonna go crazy
I know lands can have counters from things like raging ravine or graft. So i see no reason an enchantment couldnt have a counter on it.
My assumption is its an enchantment version of setassan with not creature type but has a counter on it and youve drawn a card
Nicely done, and good reference on the Ravine and Llanowar Reborn the Graft land.
Sorry you were so cold. That's nice that you turn off your heat just for our audio to be better, now go warm yourself up!
So you could kind of think about the copiable characteristics of the card as in a vacuum, in any other game when nothing else is out on the battlefield and nothing else has happened to the card, then that is what would be stats and qualities of the copy of it? Like if you had a non creature version of that Curiosity and then flickered it, it would be back to being a creature when it comes back, so that's what to copy of it will be too.
Yeah, to an extent. Copiable Values have gotten a little more complex over the last few years of Magic with things like Prototype and Mutate, but in general that is a solid way to think about it for 99% of the time.
Also you should remember that copy effects (and any modifications made to the characteristics of a card during that process) are also copiable.
If you cast Yargle, Glutton of Urborg, then cast Spark Double on it, the result is a non-legendary Yargle with a +1/+1 counter.
If you then cast Clone and copy the Spark Double, the result is a non legendary Yargle with no +1/+1 counter.
The copy effect is copied.
The "except it isn't legendary" is a change to the characteristics made during the copying process, so it is copied.
The "it enters with an additional +1/+1 counter" is a modification made during the copying process, but since it's not a change to the characteristics, it won't be copied.
707.9b: Some copy effects modify a characteristic as part of the copying process. The final set of values for that characteristic becomes part of the copiable values of the copy.
707.9e: Some replacement effects that generate copy effects include an exception that's an additional effect rather than a modification of the affected object's characteristics. If another copy effect is applied to that object after applying the copy effect with that exception, the exception's effect doesn't happen.
@@seandun7083 Yup, I've been wanting to make a video a while on this. I have a Urza, Prince of Kroog deck and I run cards like Phyrexian Metamorph and Sculpting Steel and the trick I always use is that I have them enter as a copy of nothing (Urza's +2/+2 keeps the Metamorph alive) so that when I use his 6 mana Activated Ability on them I can have the tokens come in as a copy of anything those cards could come in as, but if I had the originals come in as something, every time I use Urza's ability on them they'd have to be tokens of that thing. Super cool tech but I always have to explain it to my opponents.
Clone can return, It will be a non-creature enchantment, Since the champions ability does not say "another" it will see itself enter. It would get counters, even though it isn't a creature, every permanent can get any kind of counter if you can find a way.
@@jaceg810 Huzzah, all points, nailed them.
I am fairly sure that the answer to the bonus is, it enters as a copy of setessan champion, but a non creature enchantment with no subtypes. It doesnt see itself, thats not how it works in this case. AFAIK spells dont see themselves enter, otherwise soul warden would gain 1 life on enter, for example. If future enchantments are played, it would get a +1+1 counter though, as no rule states a non creature permanent cannot have +1+1 counters, just as a planeswalker with giadas gift still has loyalty counters
Read up how Tyranid Prime interacts with creatures you control and itself, think that might help u understand.
Very, very close. Got every part except about it seeing itself enter and triggering its own ability. It actually would net you the card draw and the +1/+1 counter on itself.
Soul Warden is a semi-optimal example because the Trigger on Soul Warden is "whenever ANOTHER creature...." so it is correct that it would Not Trigger, but the Card says that already ;). Constellation on the other Hand Trigger from itself, but "normaly" setessan champ is not an enchantment so the text doesn't mentioned itself (but as is not stateted as "another" IT would Trigger If setessan champ would enter as an enchantment.
Permanents can have +1/+1
Main Situation Recap:
You control Enduring Curiosity, which is currently a creature.
You cast Clone and choose to copy Enduring Curiosity with it.
The Clone copy of Enduring Curiosity dies, triggering its ability to return to the battlefield.
Now, the big question: Can the returning Clone come back as a copy of Setessan Champion (a non-enchantment creature)? And if so, what form will it take? Let's go through this:
1. Can you have Clone come back as a copy of Setessan Champion?
Yes, you can have Clone come back as a copy of Setessan Champion. When Clone returns from the graveyard, it retains its cloning ability, so it can copy any creature on the battlefield. There's no restriction saying the clone has to copy an enchantment, even though it was previously copying Enduring Curiosity.
2. What form will it take when it copies Setessan Champion?
It will come back as a Creature - Human Warrior. Since Setessan Champion is purely a creature (with no enchantment type), the Clone will enter as a copy of it in that form: a creature and not an enchantment. This means it will be a Human Warrior and have all of the Champion's abilities, but it will not be an enchantment or any other type.
3. Would it trigger the Champion's own ability when entering the battlefield?
No, it would not trigger Setessan Champion's own ability. That ability specifically cares about enchantments entering the battlefield, and in this case, Clone would be entering the battlefield as just a creature (Human Warrior), not an enchantment. So no card draw from the Champion's ability.
4. Follow-up: What if it came back as a non-creature enchantment?
If, hypothetically, the Clone came back as a non-creature enchantment version of something (but not in this case with Setessan Champion), it would trigger abilities like Setessan Champion's that care about enchantments entering the battlefield.
5. Could it get a +1/+1 counter as a non-creature?
No, it cannot get a +1/+1 counter if it’s a non-creature. Only creatures can have +1/+1 counters, so if Clone somehow came back as a non-creature enchantment, it would not be able to receive a +1/+1 counter.
Conclusion Recap:
Clone can come back as a copy of Setessan Champion.
It would be a creature - Human Warrior, not an enchantment.
It would not trigger Setessan Champion's "enchantment entering" ability.
If it somehow entered as a non-creature enchantment, it could trigger abilities that care about enchantments, but it couldn’t get +1/+1 counters as a non-creature.
I hope this untangles the web of questions and gets your brain working on more awesome Magic interactions! Let me know if you want to dive into anything else.
Amm i rite
It would come back as a non-creature enchantment version of the champion. It has the dies trigger making it back as an enchantment and the enters trigger making it a copy of a creature. Both apply, so it will be a copy of a creature but with its type changed to enchantment. It entering as an enchantment will trigger both its own constellation ability and that of your original champion, each letting you draw a card and put a counter on it. You will still put a counter on the non-creature copy, +1/+1 counters can be places on any permanent, they just don't have any inherent effect unless placed on a creature. For an example look at Heliod, Sun Crowned. Heliod has 'Whenever you gain life, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature or enchantment you control.'
Peter got you with the reply. It actually will come back and despite being a non-enchantment creature as Clone and despite coming in as a copy of the Champion that is also a non-enchantment creature, it will end up being a non-creature enchantment. It will have the ability and trigger itself.
@@petersullivan9559 this game is so complex 😄
@@ThisIsACommanderChannel gotta understand layers better I guess? Haha
@@cryptogames299 It just takes time.
Crap, I was going to say it would be an enchantment creature but looks like others are saying just enchantment. Dang.
That's all good. I wouldn't be making these videos if I assumed that a majority of Commander players would know how all of these crazy scenarios would play out. A lot of the comments you're seeing are correct, the Clone could come back in as the Champion, but it would be a creatureless enchantment and trigger it's own ETB.