On the whole your verdikt is right. I live in northern Germany and the NDR-Orchestra is the best orchestra in my region. So I heard many of Gardiners performances in concert. Weill‘s Deadly Sins with Anne Sophie von Otter were an event. And I heard the Symphonic Dances for the first time and it was amazing. Nostalgia. Where are the Planets ? I love your work ! Keep on listening.
Oh man. When I was a classical neophyte, Gramophone was one of my sources for recording reviews. And, of course, they just LOVED Gardiner. I was too green to realize that Gramophone always rooted for the hometown teams. And at the same time, I was trying to get my bearings with HIP and what that meant for my preferences. My first recording of the B Minor Mass was the Klemperer, and whatever you think of Klemperer's approach to Bach, "compulsively listenable" it ain't. So hearing an HIP approach to Bach was a revelation. You can hear all the counterpoint! The tempos actually make the lines dance instead of lumber along! But try as the Gramophone people might, I just could not get into Gardiner. For HIP Bach, I quickly discovered Herreweghe, and I thought his approach just blew away Gardiner. And then there were Gardiner's recordings of the Missa Solemnis (which Gramophone recommended above all others) and Brahm's Deutsches Requiem (also praised to the sky). I could not connect with those recordings at all, especially when compared to their Klemperer counterparts. Was I just missing something? Isn't this "historically informed"? Why does it just sound so dull? All very funny in hindsight, but a good reminder of a critic's responsibility. New classical fans, in the face of an enormous standard repertoire and a veritable sea of recordings, often don't trust their own ears when first starting out.
I second that. Excellent comment. I especially want to highlight Herreweghe, who has made reference recordings of much of the baroque repertoire (deserves a medal for his Bach alone) but has managed to make “historical” performances sound warm and involving in ways Gardiner never managed. Now, in all honesty, Herreweghe doing Brucker or Mahler turns into a different discussion altogether but for earlier music he is pretty much the standard. Point is, as you note, we need to trust our own ears and listen to what we like regardless of what a certain critic might say.
Thank you for your input in the conversation. My experience is like yours, looking into Gramphone instead of learning to trust my own ears (and heart). Well, one is never too young or old to learn... When I was 17 (49 years ago - oy!), I attended a performance of Bach's Johannes Passion in one of the most beautiful churches in Utrecht. There I sat, in awe: Philippe Herteweghe conducting Collegium Vocale Ghent; Altus sung by Rene Jacobs, and Ton Koopman at the continuo organ. Each of these three has gone on to establish major careers up to this day. Yet to have witnessed them performing Bach together with their friends in that church in Utrecht is a memory I cherish to this day.
@@thomass.9167 It was indeed. In hindsight i'd call it a "temporary ascension into heaven"...:-) Ton Koopman at that time posessed a curly head and beard of admirable proportions, which made an even bigger impression as he moved his head with Bach's beat while playing. This performance was indeed worth my pilgrimage. Many years later, in the early 1990s, while I happened to live in Berlin, I was lucky to attend a Carl Heinrich Graun's opera 'Cleopatra e Cesare' at the Berlin Staatsoper under the musical direction of Rene Jacobs, who returned to that house for many other baroque occasions.
David, I'm so glad you said that his Missa Solemnis is nothing special. I never liked it either, even though everyone else have praised it to the hilt, including the British critics. I thought there was something I wasn't getting, but no. It really is a very neat and incisive performance that's utterly devoid of passion or emotion, or any kind of transcendent vision.
Who are the supertanker-sized conductor boxes for? If I were so in love with a conductor's musical personality that I'd want 104 of his CDs, wouldn't I have most of them already? I like Gardiner's Handel/Bach recordings well enough, but I wouldn't buy them twice just to hear his Janacek.
I don't stand monographic boxes/sets dedicated to performers. I think they can have sense for composers, but as it has came out in these reviews, performers often are "mixed bags", depending on the composer they can perfectly hit the Bull's Eye, or totally miss the point, and all of the shades in between. Also, composers being the actual centre of attention, I'd reserve complete editions (or large selections) to them.
As you say: I accept that Karajan's Beethoven is different from Solti's... so, the conductor is in there as a 'distinguishing characteristic', but I'm with you: the composer is king. I avoid performer (be it Callas or Previn or Abbado) collections like the plague in consequence. I have boxed sets of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Britten, Vaughan Williams and Strauss... but I personally don't see the rationale for Ormandy, Previn or Gardiner boxed sets. I am interested in the creators, not the interpreters.
The are excellent, but I need to use samples and I don't want to have a copyright problem. Technically, I can use BIS recordings, but I will get a copyright claim then I have to ask then to remove it and wait until they get around to it, and life is just too short.
Do you remember when they called the Gardiner B Minor Mass the "B Minor Madrigal"? It's so fun to chance upon your (impressive) RUclips presence. I have many fond memories, back in my NYC days, of musical revelations thanks to your guidance and enthusiasm. I'm not as steeped in the discography as you, but though I run hot and cold on Gardiner ... I do like some of his French baroque work (Hippolyte et Aricie, Les Boréades, Scylla et Glaucus) thanks to fun choices in soloists. And his Berlioz, as you mention. Greetings from Terry!
Maybe, I missed your reaction: Are Grainger‘s „Warriors“ in the box? I remember that Gardiner argued to record it, because he‘s sort of a relative of Grainger. I guess, it was coupled with „The Planets“.
26:18 Looks like we missed a disc there, David; we went from Handel to Léhar, and skipped Holst. Not that it matters, because Gardiner's recording of The Planets is very skippable.
"Unlistenably comprehensive" - I LOVE that phrase... It's a good reminder that life and time are too precious for some things. But speaking of boxed sets, can you review SONY's COMPLETE FRITZ REINER COLUMBIA box? Some fascinating things in there, available for the very first time based on the in-house Columbia lacquers, not merely dubbed from issued 78s. I am thinking of such things as the first commercial recording of Bartok's CONCERTO FOR ORCHESTRA, and his Pittsburgh Wagner tracks, most of which he never re-recorded in stereo in Chicago (only the MEISTERSINGER stuff was re-done). The Pittsburgh VENUSBERG music is scorching - IMHO superior to Stoki's competing Philly version.
Thamos! One of my all-time favorites. I’ve been waiting for the opportunity to request a video devoted to the King of Egypt, and now it’s finally here. Diego Fasolis’ recording has long been my favorite (JEG’s less so), but I’m open to alternatives. Talk to us Brother!
Enjoyed your Ormandy talks very much, David. Watched the second one twice, in fact. I've watched JEG rehearsing with the Philharmonia and I've listened to eight or nine of his discs. Find his music-making flinty and charmless. JEG conducting Lehar? No thanks. Best, D.
Have you ever thought about looking at the wind band repertoire? I know there are fewer recordings of that music but there more than a few orchestral composers like Holst and Vaughan-Williams who ended up being just as famous in the band world as the orchestral.
Tend to find a lot of Gardiner's discs turn up in charity (thrift) shops! Maybe the initial flush of enthusiasm waned for many?😁 Actually to be fair though, I also found Kleiber's La Traviata you mentioned recently for £1.49 and De Falla's La vida breve with Navarro (splendid work, splendid performance) for 99 pence and excitingly Honeck's Pittsburgh Mahler 3 for the same price! What were those doing there? I have to say the most common one's I find are Bryn Terfel DG compilation albums - embarrassing quantities of those!
Did the Vienna Philharmonic sever their connection with Gardiner? He was doing a lot of work with them and then now nothing. Rattle was the same way. Wonder if they had a falling out? Gardiner's Mozart C minor Mass on Philips is epic, in my opinion. It is just amazingly sung and played. Sylvia McNair just blows me away.
Thanks for the review of what's in the box. I've personally always found Gardiner rather faceless and lacking in character. I admit I don't share your enthusiasm for his Don Giovanni, but operas tend to be fairly personal choices. Glad the set exists for those who desire it but there's so many choices for much of this repertoire and I'm happy with what I have found elsewhere.
I've got a handful of Gardiner recordings--by no means enough on which to make a judgment--but of the ones I have, they tend to back up what DH says about Gardiner's best recordings not being on DG: my favorites are Gluck's Iphigenie en Aulide and, especially, Rameau's Les Boreades, which is a knockout (for which I ponied up about $50 as a starving grad student in the early years of CDs), both on Erato.
Mr Hurwitz I apologize for being a little off topic but I am tempted to get the Bruno Walter Columbia set on Sony. Old school stuff, mono 78 I think. A friend of mine says it’s of great importance and beautiful music. Should I pull the trigger?
I can't take responsibility for that. Much of it is stereo, actually. There are many classic performances, especially his Brahms, Mahler, some Beethoven, and some glorious Mozart. If that's of interest to you, then go for it.
It's a wonderful box. I don't speak with David's authority, of course, but it has given me many, many hours of pleasure. Nice book included, and original artwork.
For what it's worth, Gardiner conducted the best concert of Romantic repertoire I've ever heard (out of the 100 or so concerts of classical music in general that I've been to): Mendelssohn's Hebrides Overture and Symphony 3, along with the Schumann Piano Concerto, in London, at the Barbican. The fact that he didn't even get a standing ovation doesn't just show how those are less common in the UK than in the US; it's one more tiny bit of evidence that Gardiner isn't really part of the "home team" in Britain. He was, for example, too much of a rebel against the British blandness embodied in the Choir of King's College. (Listen to his episode of Desert Island Discs to learn more about this.) Furthermore, for my money, no one comes close to Gardiner's DG performance of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, especially in the fugue of the Credo, which may be my favorite section of recorded music of anything. BUT I will agree that, more recently, Gardiner's pace in that work has become almost absurdly fast, so that it loses its elasticity and becomes the musical equivalent of a worn-out pair of underwear.
Gardiner recorded that Mendelssohn/Schumann concert for LSO Live and it contains both Blu-ray audio and video discs. Well worth getting, but my favorite of his Mendelssohn remains the Symphony No. 5 with the Vienna Phil that David hates largely because I never liked the work until I heard Gardiner’s way with it (Paray also knew how to do it, too, as I remember). Nothing sanctimonious or Victorian about it-just terrifically exciting!
I've been away but I think your review here is entirely fair, more so than perhaps I thought it would be lol. Not sure if you mentioned his Clemenza with Julia Varady etc (expect it is in there) but it is far better as a listen than Jacobs. His Mozart is indeed very good and agree the piano concertos with Bilson are marvellous, partly because you wouldn't imagine you'd enjoy them with fortepiano so much, but also because of the orchestral balances between winds and strings and the balance of orchestra and keyboard. Too often even in very good performances it sounds like the orchestra is somehow hovering in the background. I do think that one thing he (and others) deserve a bit of credit for is the stretching of available repertoire over a longer time span than was probably the norm in the 1960s and 70s so we hear more great music as a result (even if the performances are not exactly ideal sometimes). I have a lot of Gardiner recordings, but I did go off him a bit after trying to read his Bach book. It starts out all about him and his bucolic upbringing in the west country and then him imagining himself as Bach etc. Having read Humphrey Burton's bio of Bernstein, where you get a picture of a similarly very talented but also self-absorbed youth, I felt this was even worse, it takes him ages to actually get to Bach's music at which point I had had enough.... I mean the fact that he has a go at Karajan for arrogance etc etc in that interview on the Beethoven symphonies is rather telling.
insightful stuff. I agree totally about the size of choruses in Handel. Out of curiosity, where do you stand on OVPP in Bach? Have you been convinced by it? (I'm curious. I know what I like.)
I have not been convinced, although I think it can be lovely as a means of contrast in movements that offer opportunities for more intimate moments. Even if Bach had to put up with it, I think that Tovey said it best: "Scholarship itself is not obliged to insist on the restoration of conditions that ought never to have existed."
I was looking forward to this box as I'm a Gardiner fan, but this packaging is hideous. Why wouldn't they do the same thing they did with Karl Richter? I adore those Archiv jackets. Blech.
I agree with your assessment. Gardiner is an excellent Choral conductor. And, a fine opera conductor. His only problem for me is his lack of ornamentation in Handel (compare to Mackerras). And his inelastic tempos detract in some of his mozart. However, once he goes above 1800 he looses me completely. His orchestral recordings, especially Beethoven lack dynamics and layered buildups....he is in a race watching his metronome. Yes, there is clarity and detail....but it is as if he forgets there is drama and story of the orchestral pieces. If they ever do a philips box of Gardiner one will find his excellent Mozart symphonies, Mozart masses, Handel orchestral and Choral work etc. what happened to his Haydn mass set.....
David, is there some connection between this sudden glut of huge box set collections and your excellent series of reviews on said boxed sets? Perhaps the labels feel if you are likely to review it, it's worth putting out (even the ones you end up panning!)
No, that's impossible. These things are planned far too long in advance for me to have any effect on the label's plans. Believe me, I'm not even on their radar (or it would shock me to death if I were).
Nice to see Berlioz mentioned as a strength for Gardiner. The one disc of his that I truly treasure is the Erato one with orchestral songs. The one with Nuits d'été featuring different singers. That is one hell of a recording I wouldn't want to be without. I'll just skip this silly box.
You make an incredible Dejanira, Dave! Your interpretation is unique in driving the audience crazy along with you. Your take on Gardiner, however, was spot on. With few exceptions (Monteverdi, Purcell, Handel), i find his performances sterile. For some reason the da Ponte operas managed to evoke some passion in him; but not much else. I have found over the years that Gardiner recordings I enjoyed greatly upon first hearing began to pale, then to pall later on. The great virtue of his Bach is the singing of the Monteverdi Choir. Their rhythmic precision and crisp diction are amazing. I keep some of those DG Bach Cantatas on hand primarily to enjoy those all too rare virtues of choral singing. I shall definitely pass up this box.
Gardiner will be remembered first and foremost as a Mozart conductor, of that I am sure. His late 1980s-middle 1990s Mozart stuff is the best of its kind but the top recording is not in the box - the C minor mass. That's truly one of my most cherished CDs.
Dear Stuffy, It's an interesting comparison. Actually, I think Marriner was a much more interesting conductor both in terms of repertoire and what he actually accomplished.
…indeed, basic humanity not much in evidence as most who sing or play for him will attest. He’s in a position to make or break careers and fear is the emotion behind many of his performers as they turn in their tight, taut but emotionally dead performances.
I guess I must be a Philistine--but I've always found Gardiner to be a bit boring and bland. His period stuff that he's so obsessed with is always technically brilliant, but i've never found it to be compelling emotionally. It's all just a little too neat and a little too light and above all it's always predictably by the book. It's not horrible, but it's not necessarily the first thing i would recommend to a friend.
I think you're asking for the channel not to be the channel. Dave is as Dave does and most of us either enjoy or endure it as a requirement for getting the gems. For one video, maybe he could bang it out on a child's xylophone, though. I think that would provoke the 'please sing it!' posts :)
Thanks for your reviews of the Ormandy mono legacy and this Gardiner box. The two conductors make an interesting contrast. Ormandy is often overlooked or even deprecated in terms of being among the great conductors whereas BBC Magazine, for example, lists Gardiner at No. 11 among the greatest all-time conductors while listing Simon Rattle at No. 6. Conductor Kenneth Woods made a list of the top 20 deceased conductors in 2011 and (justly, in my opinion) included Ormandy at No. 14 but did not include Bruno Walter. While such lists are subjective and conversation pieces, I cannot fathom leaving Bruno Walter off such lists. To me, Gardiner and Rattle are, on the other land, mostly forgettable and overrated - albeit they apparently both have large enthusiastic followings.
In the world of classical music "large enthusiastic followings" has no meaning. Especially today, it's impossible to separate the PR from the reality of record sales and recordings activity, most of which is privately funded.
Spot on, Mr O'H. The first JEG disc (tape, actually) Iistened to was his take on the Brahms' Requiem. So uninvolving, so lacking in warmth and mystery, compared to ANY of HVK's recordings. Best, D.
Gardiner is great as long as you don't have to work with him.
On the whole your verdikt is right. I live in northern Germany and the NDR-Orchestra is the best orchestra in my region. So I heard many of Gardiners performances in concert. Weill‘s Deadly Sins with Anne Sophie von Otter were an event. And I heard the Symphonic Dances for the first time and it was amazing. Nostalgia. Where are the Planets ? I love your work ! Keep on listening.
Planets is in there--actually pretty good.
Oh man. When I was a classical neophyte, Gramophone was one of my sources for recording reviews. And, of course, they just LOVED Gardiner. I was too green to realize that Gramophone always rooted for the hometown teams.
And at the same time, I was trying to get my bearings with HIP and what that meant for my preferences. My first recording of the B Minor Mass was the Klemperer, and whatever you think of Klemperer's approach to Bach, "compulsively listenable" it ain't. So hearing an HIP approach to Bach was a revelation. You can hear all the counterpoint! The tempos actually make the lines dance instead of lumber along!
But try as the Gramophone people might, I just could not get into Gardiner. For HIP Bach, I quickly discovered Herreweghe, and I thought his approach just blew away Gardiner. And then there were Gardiner's recordings of the Missa Solemnis (which Gramophone recommended above all others) and Brahm's Deutsches Requiem (also praised to the sky). I could not connect with those recordings at all, especially when compared to their Klemperer counterparts. Was I just missing something? Isn't this "historically informed"? Why does it just sound so dull?
All very funny in hindsight, but a good reminder of a critic's responsibility. New classical fans, in the face of an enormous standard repertoire and a veritable sea of recordings, often don't trust their own ears when first starting out.
Thank you for making this very, very valid point. It's a reminder of where we all started out (including yours truly).
I second that. Excellent comment. I especially want to highlight Herreweghe, who has made reference recordings of much of the baroque repertoire (deserves a medal for his Bach alone) but has managed to make “historical” performances sound warm and involving in ways Gardiner never managed. Now, in all honesty, Herreweghe doing Brucker or Mahler turns into a different discussion altogether but for earlier music he is pretty much the standard. Point is, as you note, we need to trust our own ears and listen to what we like regardless of what a certain critic might say.
Thank you for your input in the conversation. My experience is like yours, looking into Gramphone instead of learning to trust my own ears (and heart). Well, one is never too young or old to learn... When I was 17 (49 years ago - oy!), I attended a performance of Bach's Johannes Passion in one of the most beautiful churches in Utrecht. There I sat, in awe: Philippe Herteweghe conducting Collegium Vocale Ghent; Altus sung by Rene Jacobs, and Ton Koopman at the continuo organ. Each of these three has gone on to establish major careers up to this day. Yet to have witnessed them performing Bach together with their friends in that church in Utrecht is a memory I cherish to this day.
@@ewmbr1164 You are very lucky. Now, that’s a baroque dream team if there ever was one.
@@thomass.9167 It was indeed. In hindsight i'd call it a "temporary ascension into heaven"...:-) Ton Koopman at that time posessed a curly head and beard of admirable proportions, which made an even bigger impression as he moved his head with Bach's beat while playing. This performance was indeed worth my pilgrimage. Many years later, in the early 1990s, while I happened to live in Berlin, I was lucky to attend a Carl Heinrich Graun's opera 'Cleopatra e Cesare' at the Berlin Staatsoper under the musical direction of Rene Jacobs, who returned to that house for many other baroque occasions.
David, I'm so glad you said that his Missa Solemnis is nothing special. I never liked it either, even though everyone else have praised it to the hilt, including the British critics. I thought there was something I wasn't getting, but no. It really is a very neat and incisive performance that's utterly devoid of passion or emotion, or any kind of transcendent vision.
Who are the supertanker-sized conductor boxes for? If I were so in love with a conductor's musical personality that I'd want 104 of his CDs, wouldn't I have most of them already? I like Gardiner's Handel/Bach recordings well enough, but I wouldn't buy them twice just to hear his Janacek.
@@paxpaxart4740 I think Mr Hurwitz should do a talk on this
I don't stand monographic boxes/sets dedicated to performers. I think they can have sense for composers, but as it has came out in these reviews, performers often are "mixed bags", depending on the composer they can perfectly hit the Bull's Eye, or totally miss the point, and all of the shades in between.
Also, composers being the actual centre of attention, I'd reserve complete editions (or large selections) to them.
As you say: I accept that Karajan's Beethoven is different from Solti's... so, the conductor is in there as a 'distinguishing characteristic', but I'm with you: the composer is king. I avoid performer (be it Callas or Previn or Abbado) collections like the plague in consequence. I have boxed sets of Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Britten, Vaughan Williams and Strauss... but I personally don't see the rationale for Ormandy, Previn or Gardiner boxed sets. I am interested in the creators, not the interpreters.
So true about Gardiner. By the way, I often like Suzuki and his Japanes forces in Bach. Perhaps an idea for a video.
Agreed. Suzuki’s cantata cycle is the best one out there (according to me at least) and beautifully recorded on top of that.
The are excellent, but I need to use samples and I don't want to have a copyright problem. Technically, I can use BIS recordings, but I will get a copyright claim then I have to ask then to remove it and wait until they get around to it, and life is just too short.
Do you remember when they called the Gardiner B Minor Mass the "B Minor Madrigal"? It's so fun to chance upon your (impressive) RUclips presence. I have many fond memories, back in my NYC days, of musical revelations thanks to your guidance and enthusiasm. I'm not as steeped in the discography as you, but though I run hot and cold on Gardiner ... I do like some of his French baroque work (Hippolyte et Aricie, Les Boréades, Scylla et Glaucus) thanks to fun choices in soloists. And his Berlioz, as you mention. Greetings from Terry!
Er... wrong conductor. The 'OVPP B minor Madrigal' was conducted by Joshua Rifkin not JEG.
Maybe, I missed your reaction: Are Grainger‘s „Warriors“ in the box? I remember that Gardiner argued to record it, because he‘s sort of a relative of Grainger. I guess, it was coupled with „The Planets“.
Yes, it's there. I didn't mention it--my oversight. The booklet page got stuck.
26:18 Looks like we missed a disc there, David; we went from Handel to Léhar, and skipped Holst. Not that it matters, because Gardiner's recording of The Planets is very skippable.
Yep. Pages stuck together. It's there, and one of his better "normal" efforts, but as you say, rather unnecessary.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Agree....I was not impressed with his PLANETS.....maybe he should have had his ORR forces perform it.
"Unlistenably comprehensive" - I LOVE that phrase... It's a good reminder that life and time are too precious for some things.
But speaking of boxed sets, can you review SONY's COMPLETE FRITZ REINER COLUMBIA box? Some fascinating things in there, available for the very first time based on the in-house Columbia lacquers, not merely dubbed from issued 78s. I am thinking of such things as the first commercial recording of Bartok's CONCERTO FOR ORCHESTRA, and his Pittsburgh Wagner tracks, most of which he never re-recorded in stereo in Chicago (only the MEISTERSINGER stuff was re-done). The Pittsburgh VENUSBERG music is scorching - IMHO superior to Stoki's competing Philly version.
I've heard it but haven't talked about it. Jed did an excellent review for ClassicsToday.com, but I have been considering it.
Thamos! One of my all-time favorites. I’ve been waiting for the opportunity to request a video devoted to the King of Egypt, and now it’s finally here. Diego Fasolis’ recording has long been my favorite (JEG’s less so), but I’m open to alternatives. Talk to us Brother!
Wonder if a Brüggen box is in the stars.
Enjoyed your Ormandy talks very much, David. Watched the second one twice, in fact.
I've watched JEG rehearsing with the Philharmonia and I've listened to eight or nine of his discs. Find his music-making flinty and charmless. JEG conducting Lehar? No thanks.
Best, D.
Have you ever thought about looking at the wind band repertoire? I know there are fewer recordings of that music but there more than a few orchestral composers like Holst and Vaughan-Williams who ended up being just as famous in the band world as the orchestral.
There's an entire play list devoted to it on my channel. Have a look.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Very much appreciated. Thank you!
Tend to find a lot of Gardiner's discs turn up in charity (thrift) shops! Maybe the initial flush of enthusiasm waned for many?😁 Actually to be fair though, I also found Kleiber's La Traviata you mentioned recently for £1.49 and De Falla's La vida breve with Navarro (splendid work, splendid performance) for 99 pence and excitingly Honeck's Pittsburgh Mahler 3 for the same price! What were those doing there?
I have to say the most common one's I find are Bryn Terfel DG compilation albums - embarrassing quantities of those!
Did the Vienna Philharmonic sever their connection with Gardiner? He was doing a lot of work with them and then now nothing. Rattle was the same way. Wonder if they had a falling out? Gardiner's Mozart C minor Mass on Philips is epic, in my opinion. It is just amazingly sung and played. Sylvia McNair just blows me away.
What the fach is Gardiner doing with Taras Bulba?
Thanks for the review of what's in the box. I've personally always found Gardiner rather faceless and lacking in character. I admit I don't share your enthusiasm for his Don Giovanni, but operas tend to be fairly personal choices. Glad the set exists for those who desire it but there's so many choices for much of this repertoire and I'm happy with what I have found elsewhere.
Fair enough!
I've got a handful of Gardiner recordings--by no means enough on which to make a judgment--but of the ones I have, they tend to back up what DH says about Gardiner's best recordings not being on DG: my favorites are Gluck's Iphigenie en Aulide and, especially, Rameau's Les Boreades, which is a knockout (for which I ponied up about $50 as a starving grad student in the early years of CDs), both on Erato.
I second those recommendations.
Mr Hurwitz I apologize for being a little off topic but I am tempted to get the Bruno Walter Columbia set on Sony. Old school stuff, mono 78 I think. A friend of mine says it’s of great importance and beautiful music. Should I pull the trigger?
I can't take responsibility for that. Much of it is stereo, actually. There are many classic performances, especially his Brahms, Mahler, some Beethoven, and some glorious Mozart. If that's of interest to you, then go for it.
It's a wonderful box. I don't speak with David's authority, of course, but it has given me many, many hours of pleasure. Nice book included, and original artwork.
Thanks guys!! I’m goin for it
My bad. I was thinking of Edward Gardner. Is my punishment listening to all existing recordings of Tzigani?
For what it's worth, Gardiner conducted the best concert of Romantic repertoire I've ever heard (out of the 100 or so concerts of classical music in general that I've been to): Mendelssohn's Hebrides Overture and Symphony 3, along with the Schumann Piano Concerto, in London, at the Barbican. The fact that he didn't even get a standing ovation doesn't just show how those are less common in the UK than in the US; it's one more tiny bit of evidence that Gardiner isn't really part of the "home team" in Britain. He was, for example, too much of a rebel against the British blandness embodied in the Choir of King's College. (Listen to his episode of Desert Island Discs to learn more about this.) Furthermore, for my money, no one comes close to Gardiner's DG performance of Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, especially in the fugue of the Credo, which may be my favorite section of recorded music of anything. BUT I will agree that, more recently, Gardiner's pace in that work has become almost absurdly fast, so that it loses its elasticity and becomes the musical equivalent of a worn-out pair of underwear.
Great. Everyone has their good days, and I'm glad you heard one of them.
Gardiner recorded that Mendelssohn/Schumann concert for LSO Live and it contains both Blu-ray audio and video discs. Well worth getting, but my favorite of his Mendelssohn remains the Symphony No. 5 with the Vienna Phil that David hates largely because I never liked the work until I heard Gardiner’s way with it (Paray also knew how to do it, too, as I remember). Nothing sanctimonious or Victorian about it-just terrifically exciting!
The "uvula of Christ" has reduced me to a gibbering and lachrymose mess 😂
I've been away but I think your review here is entirely fair, more so than perhaps I thought it would be lol. Not sure if you mentioned his Clemenza with Julia Varady etc (expect it is in there) but it is far better as a listen than Jacobs. His Mozart is indeed very good and agree the piano concertos with Bilson are marvellous, partly because you wouldn't imagine you'd enjoy them with fortepiano so much, but also because of the orchestral balances between winds and strings and the balance of orchestra and keyboard. Too often even in very good performances it sounds like the orchestra is somehow hovering in the background.
I do think that one thing he (and others) deserve a bit of credit for is the stretching of available repertoire over a longer time span than was probably the norm in the 1960s and 70s so we hear more great music as a result (even if the performances are not exactly ideal sometimes). I have a lot of Gardiner recordings, but I did go off him a bit after trying to read his Bach book. It starts out all about him and his bucolic upbringing in the west country and then him imagining himself as Bach etc. Having read Humphrey Burton's bio of Bernstein, where you get a picture of a similarly very talented but also self-absorbed youth, I felt this was even worse, it takes him ages to actually get to Bach's music at which point I had had enough.... I mean the fact that he has a go at Karajan for arrogance etc etc in that interview on the Beethoven symphonies is rather telling.
insightful stuff. I agree totally about the size of choruses in Handel. Out of curiosity, where do you stand on OVPP in Bach? Have you been convinced by it? (I'm curious. I know what I like.)
I have not been convinced, although I think it can be lovely as a means of contrast in movements that offer opportunities for more intimate moments. Even if Bach had to put up with it, I think that Tovey said it best: "Scholarship itself is not obliged to insist on the restoration of conditions that ought never to have existed."
@@DavesClassicalGuide Excellent Tovey quote. Thank you.
Ha! Your reaction to this version of The Fairy Queen almost exactly reflects my own.
Regarding completeness, Gardiner recorded The Planets for DG. Didn't hear you mention it.
Didn't. The booklet pages got stuck together. It's pretty good.
I was looking forward to this box as I'm a Gardiner fan, but this packaging is hideous. Why wouldn't they do the same thing they did with Karl Richter? I adore those Archiv jackets. Blech.
Because Richter's interpretations are genial and for the ages and Gardiner's are not.
I agree with your assessment. Gardiner is an excellent Choral conductor. And, a fine opera conductor. His only problem for me is his lack of ornamentation in Handel (compare to Mackerras). And his inelastic tempos detract in some of his mozart. However, once he goes above 1800 he looses me completely. His orchestral recordings, especially Beethoven lack dynamics and layered buildups....he is in a race watching his metronome. Yes, there is clarity and detail....but it is as if he forgets there is drama and story of the orchestral pieces.
If they ever do a philips box of Gardiner one will find his excellent Mozart symphonies, Mozart masses, Handel orchestral and Choral work etc.
what happened to his Haydn mass set.....
The Masses are on Philips/Decca (this week).
David, is there some connection between this sudden glut of huge box set collections and your excellent series of reviews on said boxed sets? Perhaps the labels feel if you are likely to review it, it's worth putting out (even the ones you end up panning!)
No, that's impossible. These things are planned far too long in advance for me to have any effect on the label's plans. Believe me, I'm not even on their radar (or it would shock me to death if I were).
Nice to see Berlioz mentioned as a strength for Gardiner. The one disc of his that I truly treasure is the Erato one with orchestral songs. The one with Nuits d'été featuring different singers. That is one hell of a recording I wouldn't want to be without.
I'll just skip this silly box.
Discogs lists "Thamos" as disc 105 - was there a second edition?
You make an incredible Dejanira, Dave! Your interpretation is unique in driving the audience crazy along with you. Your take on Gardiner, however, was spot on. With few exceptions (Monteverdi, Purcell, Handel), i find his performances sterile. For some reason the da Ponte operas managed to evoke some passion in him; but not much else. I have found over the years that Gardiner recordings I enjoyed greatly upon first hearing began to pale, then to pall later on. The great virtue of his Bach is the singing of the Monteverdi Choir. Their rhythmic precision and crisp diction are amazing. I keep some of those DG Bach Cantatas on hand primarily to enjoy those all too rare virtues of choral singing. I shall definitely pass up this box.
Yes the don giovanni is excellent very enjoyable and beautiful singing and dramatic
I must admit I did enjoy his Don Giovanni and his Bruckner motets.
So did I.
Gardiner will be remembered first and foremost as a Mozart conductor, of that I am sure. His late 1980s-middle 1990s Mozart stuff is the best of its kind but the top recording is not in the box - the C minor mass. That's truly one of my most cherished CDs.
SDG = 'Soli Deo Gloria' or perhaps 'Sod DG'
LOL
Hi! Are those Haydn-Dorati over your left ear? Did you like them?
Of course.
Hi guru Dave,
Would you agree Gardiner is the Neville Marriner of the period instruments?
Keep it up (from a stuffy Brit)
Dear Stuffy,
It's an interesting comparison. Actually, I think Marriner was a much more interesting conductor both in terms of repertoire and what he actually accomplished.
So in other words, this is another option for your squatting exercises!
Bingo!
I thought my aahkenazy karajan sets were big.
I'm sorry if you mentioned it and missed it, but didn't Gardiner do a Merry Widow for DG?
I did mention it.
Too right about the complete lack of any scrap of humour from this conductor.
…indeed, basic humanity not much in evidence as most who sing or play for him will attest. He’s in a position to make or break careers and fear is the emotion behind many of his performers as they turn in their tight, taut but emotionally dead performances.
@@angusmcmillan8981 Nailed it. One would not this box of his for free.
Meant to say: Would not have this box set of his for free.
@David Hurwitz - Which orchestra or conductor do you recommend for the Music of Bach?
Watch sone videos.
Thamos is in Mozart 225, not that that’s a cheap way to get it.
And it should be here.
I guess I must be a Philistine--but I've always found Gardiner to be a bit boring and bland. His period stuff that he's so obsessed with is always technically brilliant, but i've never found it to be compelling emotionally. It's all just a little too neat and a little too light and above all it's always predictably by the book. It's not horrible, but it's not necessarily the first thing i would recommend to a friend.
Sounds about right to me, with certain exceptions as I noted.
"Big echo-ey Germans..." } Very droll, indeed...
Question: are those the complete Haydn Eszterhaza operas behind you on the shelf? I have them also - would love to hear your take on them...Thnx!
Yes they are!
Any comments on his Chandos recordings?
I think you've got the wrong guy.
Please - I am BEGGING you.
Don’t sing. At least don’t sing loudly...
Deal with it.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sing as much as you like, David!
I think you're asking for the channel not to be the channel. Dave is as Dave does and most of us either enjoy or endure it as a requirement for getting the gems. For one video, maybe he could bang it out on a child's xylophone, though. I think that would provoke the 'please sing it!' posts :)
Just love your singing! It conveys the points you are making.
Thanks for your reviews of the Ormandy mono legacy and this Gardiner box. The two conductors make an interesting contrast. Ormandy is often overlooked or even deprecated in terms of being among the great conductors whereas BBC Magazine, for example, lists Gardiner at No. 11 among the greatest all-time conductors while listing Simon Rattle at No. 6. Conductor Kenneth Woods made a list of the top 20 deceased conductors in 2011 and (justly, in my opinion) included Ormandy at No. 14 but did not include Bruno Walter. While such lists are subjective and conversation pieces, I cannot fathom leaving Bruno Walter off such lists. To me, Gardiner and Rattle are, on the other land, mostly forgettable and overrated - albeit they apparently both have large enthusiastic followings.
In the world of classical music "large enthusiastic followings" has no meaning. Especially today, it's impossible to separate the PR from the reality of record sales and recordings activity, most of which is privately funded.
John Eliot Gardiner = Brisk Efficiency and not much more.
Spot on, Mr O'H. The first JEG disc (tape, actually) Iistened to was his take on the Brahms' Requiem. So uninvolving, so lacking in warmth and mystery, compared to ANY of HVK's recordings. Best, D.
You repeat this constantly but it's not (always) true. Listen to his K. 595 with Bilson. Warm, gorgeously phrased, humane. It's sensual, even!
I'm inclined to agree.
@@garthhudson Patrick, I will give it a crack out of respect for your good self - B
I agree, I find him a mediocre so called director. His Bach seems to be played by an atheist.