Your video is so on point! Just upgraded my Lucca M58 with flow control (had to purchase from distributor because you don’t have them in stock 😂, sorry). My favorite drip / pour over is this Ethiopian Y coffee, but always hated it as an espresso because it is too bright. I tried the same long preinfusion and wow - all the brightness / acidity gone and tastes amazing! Thanks so much for these videos.
Just set up my flow control yesterday. I wanted to take a minute to thank Mark and Todd for all the videos as they were incredibly helpful. I’ve watched just about every one of your videos and they make a huge difference. Love my ECM synchronika and Ceado E37S. Fabulous combination. If your on the fence about investing in these products I can say without hesitation they are well worth it. Your mornings will be even more wonderful 👍🏻
10:15 Hi guys! Just got a new Profitec 500 with flow control! Still learning a lot. Great videos! In this video it looked like the portafilter was just leveled and not tamped. Did I see that wrong? If it wasn't tamped why is that? Thank you!
Hey rich, congrats on the new machine and thanks for your comment on vids! Yes, with a properly set and capable leveler like this one: www.wholelattelove.com/products/asso-coffee-the-jack-leveler-light-wood It is possible to compress the coffee enough that tamping is not required. Some level and still tamp. Here's a video on that leveler: ruclips.net/video/4Z5vTi643sc/видео.html Marc
Marc - why not level and tamp? I level for an even surface but keep the blades high to minimize compression of the grounds. Then I tamp the level bed. Works great!
Thank you for this in-depth video guys. As someone who drinks Americano and milk-based drinks would I benefit from flow control? I also mainly use medium to dark roast.
Hey MP, You are welcome! Americanos for sure. Changing flavor using flow in those will be very apparent. Let's say you have a dark roast coming off as too roasty or bitter. You could use a lower flow as the extraction progresses to reduce those flavors. In milk drinks the flavor difference is still there but maybe a little hidden. Depends on ratios. Very apparent in a short double shot flat white maybe not so much in a large single shot caffe latte. Depending on what you like you might even try to increase bitterness to balance the sweetness of the milk. Hope that helps! Marc
It took you guys 2 years to convince me me to install a flow control to my Pro 700. :) Somehow I just wasn't getting it. Now I get it. :) I wish I had bought in 2020, but it's like having a new machine now. Nice video. I really love having the incremental control over flow and flavor.
Hi S, Thanks for sharing your experience! Flow control really does make a difference! For those unfamiliar with flow control I did a more recent video featuring 2 super easy flow profiles based on coffee freshness and roast level that make a huge difference: ruclips.net/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/видео.html Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Marc I use the profiles as a starting point, and use variations as I become familiar each coffee. The profiles have been helpful directionally. //Stan
Nice video! What is the name of the scales used for weighing the coffee in the portafilter? Not the ones on the drip tray - unless they are the same haha.
Loved the video. Great device. My only comment would be that I would have ground the coffee a bit finer first in order to tone down the brightness, because both shots (IMHO) were brewed just too fast.
Hi Javier, Thanks for the comment. So many variables! Finer grind may have helped. Love your comment as I'll probably have someone complaining the second shot at ~38 seconds from pump on wast too long! If they only knew!!! Marc
After spending a few months with the Pathfinder, I’m ready to start getting into flow control. Like all WLL videos, this video was quite helpful. Excited!
@@Wholelattelovepage Just tried it. I’m floored rn…for a while I was wondering if I should have gone with a PID system instead, but I certainly chose correctly. Still shocked!! I buy from Blank Street, and usually get beans only a couple days off of roast, if not day of. This flow control game is serious business…so appreciative!! Thank you 🙏🏼 WOW!!!
Thank you WLL for all the great videos. I have the Profitec 500 with flow control and have a weird issue going on when using it. I can set it at 1.25 turn, counter clockwise turn, open from closed and 36g pulls in 28 sec. I can close to .5 turn from close and the shot will pull in under 20 sec. This happens over and over. Any ideas why this is happening? Thank you
Hey ch, you are welcome for the videos! Lower flow rates generally require a finer grind size. High flow rates can push fines through the coffee puck resulting in more restriction and a slower shot. Hope that helps! Marc
Really cool to see how visibly different the extract was by starting with a slower flow rate! Definitely less channeling, and better color on the 2nd one! Currently, I have a Flair Pro, and I guess you can say it has a "manual" flow control lol
Hi Marc, Why only the European have those Pro Espresso Machines? It's a low Interest in North America to build something great like ECM, or it's just because they don't have generally that skills and History to prudoced it? Thx Nikita
Hi Nikita, Think you hit the nail on the head with skills and history in Italy. Companies like Bezzera have been making these machines for more than a 100 years! Marc
Hello wholelattelove, I still do not understand the difference between pressure profiling and flow rate control. From my understanding, pressure the pump generates affects the flow rate. So, if we make pressure profile, we also controlling the flow rate. Am I missing something here?
Hi HK, Pressure and flow are related but not the same. Imagine you are pulling a shot and the timing isn't quite right so you adjust the grind size. If you're pressure profiling the pressure will be the same with a new grind size but the flow rate will be different. If you're flow profiling in the same situation the flow rate stays the same with a change in grind size and the pressure will likely be similar. There's research showing little difference in dissolved solids in cup whether one extracts at 6 bar or 9 bar. Conversely changing flow rate does impact in cup TDS as it's flow which removes solids from the coffee puck. Bottom line: flow rate is more impactful. Changing pressure changes both brew pressure and flow rate while changing flow rate keeps the pressure about the same with only flow rate changing. Marc
Hi WLL, I have a question about the normal flow shot at around 3:00. Is there a reason the pump pressure is set just above 8 bar instead of 9? Also my flow control kit is about 1/4 turn off from your tutorial and in another reaction to this video's 1 1/4 turn for normal flow rate. So on my ECM Synchronika the flow control is 1 turn to get around 11g/s, is this too much off?
Hi g, Thanks for the questions. Machine gauge read 8.5 and group was 7.5 - likely because the grind was a bit coarse. But, not concerned at all with the brew pressure. There can be some variation in flow rates based on valve position. Also minor errors in calculation. For flow rate at valve position: One thing to check is if you get no flow when the valve is closed. Not unusual for the sleeve on the shaft of the flow control to drop down a little when the valve is open. Then when you go to close the sleeve prevents the valve from closing all the way. Marc
Hi Marc, incidentally I have started a bag of 'cheffe (11 days from roast) , just beans are smaller and more roasted than I see in your video. Beans are denser than Sumatra or Honduras, to say, and probably that's a reason why regular shot can be light and lack a bite (I've noticed it, and agree to you and Todd). As my machine doesn't change flow rate, I balance grind and time to have extraction longer than I'd use for other beans - yielding same amount (around 35 sec - similar to your 38 sec). I realise my results aren't same as with flow profiling (workaround instead of solution) but I can see use for this tech. Thanks for video! I hope ECM will do right w/ Puristika, it could be ticking most of boxes for me.
Hi E 42, Thanks for detailed comment love it a "whole latte" and you are welcome for the video! We are looking forward to more on the ECM Puristika. For those who are all about Espresso and specialty coffee it should be quite the machine! Marc
Mark, I think your videos point out that a typical shot with 18 grams of dry grinds produces 36 grams of coffee which is about 2 ounces in volume. Does that mean that if youre pulling a single shot with 9 grams of dry grinds, your finished product should be around 1 ounce in volume and weigh 18 grams of liquid espresso?
Hey RG, Thanks for the question. Weighing your shot will always be more accurate than using liquid volumes due to difficulty in estimating a real volume with variations in crema. If you have a scale forget about liquid volumes and start at a 1:2 weight ratio. Marc
Hi guys! Thank you so much for this informative video. Would the slower flow affect the flavor profile of medium or darker roasts as well? I mainly drink medium roasts and recently have purchased Profitec Pro 500 with flow control. I'm curious.
Hi Josh, You're welcome for the video! Slower flow will affect medium and dark roasts as well. In most cases I tend to use a higher flow rate initially and reduce the rate as the extraction progresses for darker roasts. But if a coffee is relatively fresh from roast like within 3 weeks I'd try a low flow rate start. The low flow helps reduce brightness by allowing CO2 still locked up in the beans to off-gas prior to digging in to the extraction with a higher flow rate. Here's a video which simplifies that concept: ruclips.net/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/видео.html Marc
You guys are working HARD to capture all this stuff! Thanks so much! This is one of my primary hangups actually and one that I'd like to try to tackle in the future. I always have a lot of light to medium roasts around and when pulled for espresso they rip my face off with acidity. For that reason I pull daily-driver espresso milk beverages with Red Bird which is a "classic profile" and save the 3rd wave stuff for pour over. I'd like to get to the point where I can tone down that acidity and this gives me good ideas. I'm using a Silvia with a MeCoffee PID which can dim the pump and result in a simulation of flow profiling (with preinfusion). So far I've been told to focus mainly on temperature (higher) which I can also do with the PID so now it's just a question of adding these other two variables into the mix. A followup video that addresses Temp, preinfusion, and flow profiling would of course be very welcome!
Hi d, Thanks for the comment with all the detail - awesome and appreciated! Just had a conversion Todd. We discussed potentially doing some of what you suggest using a Dalla Corte XT 3 group machine. Using that, we can set each group to a different brew temp and flow rate and pull 3 shots simultaneously and do some comparing! Marc
Hi Marc! What are your thoughts about a stiffer/harder spring to „shut off“ the E61-built in preinfusion chamber, delivered with the latest version of the ECM flow control kit? Necessary using this with a rotary pump or not? Curious about your thoughts. Thx for all your great videos, btw! Cheers, Tom
Hi Thomas, Sorry for the delay. We spoke with Michael Hauck at ECM about the harder spring. Purpose is to prevent filling of the pre-infusion chamber so all control goes to the flow control device with no delay. I do not believe it's essential. More of a running upgrade for tighter initial control of flow. Marc
Hi Thomas & Marc, I have a Synchronika and I found it annoying, before I fitted the FC kit, that a shot of hot water would hit the tray when I lowered the lever. It messed up the front of the machine and required frequent cleaning. Now, with the stiffer spring, that problem is gone! I was previously thinking of a diffuser design to stop the mess but now I don't have to.
@@Wholelattelovepage I’m at 1/8 open 1,75 1/4 open 3,07 1/2 open 4,96 3/4 open 7,25 1/1 open 9,46 5/4 open 11,15 So my benchmark for grind-settings should be at 5/4 open. I just have to figure out how to do a pre-infusion as the stream gets unstable. So I am doing something wrong 🤭. Thnkx again, you guys rock!
Awesome work. This is my setup!!! Duelling scales with calculated flow rate for each shot! Will try your extended, super-low flow. Thanks for the video!
Hi Mark, Thanks for the comment! 2 scales makes doing brew ratios easier. Let me know how your low flow shots turn out with coffee used and any other details. Marc
Mr. Mark, on the other video (How To: Espresso Brew Pressure Check & Adjustment) you have said that 9 bar is the optimal pressure for brewing espresso, but here i see the pressure was less than 6 bars. 1) Do you still need to keep the pressure at 9 bars with the flow control or not necessary or depends on personal preferences. 2) i have watched your How To: Home Espresso - 5 Tips for Newbies, once i setup the machines accordingly, do i play with the flow control afterwards to make even better espressos? Sincerely Ben
Hi Ben, Thanks for the questions. When doing flow control pressures can go lower - often much lower than the standard extraction 9 bar. You do not need to always be at 9 bar and it's very common to not be. In reality I often pay little attention to pressure when running flow profiles. There's some good research which shows very little difference in extraction yields from espresso pulled in a range of 6-9 bar. Yes, setup your machine and make some espresso aty normal flow rates. On ECM/Profitec machines normal flow rates are obtained with the valve open 1.25 turns. From there do experiment with flow and taste to see how various rates change the flavor. Here's a link with more info about stock flow rates and graphs of 5 flow profiles for use in differenr coffee situations: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines The profiles in the article were developed by me. Hope that helps! Marc
Hi Whole Latte. I have some questions reagarding this new video. I own ECM Mechanika V Slim with installed the FCD (Flow Control Device). Did you try complete close this flow control? Are you able still get some water flow? Or it is complete closed? Did you measure flow in ml/s with fully open and fully closed FCD without portafilter? If yes, can you share with us please? I wanna compare with my measurements: Fully closed = 5ml/s Fully open = 9,5ml/s Thank you
Hi JK, Thanks for the question. Fully closed you should get no flow. You may need to adjust your FCD. Here is a video showing how to do that: ruclips.net/video/Cicw5_EAOXU/видео.html Also in the video I go through measuring flow rates at various valve positions up to fully open. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Wow, it was really helpful. I was missing about 1/4 turn to full close FCD! You were right. Now I also have no flow when the FCD is fully closed. Thank you for help!
I love and really appreciate all the WLL videos and all the hard work that everyone puts into making them ... but 18-20 second shots?!? I can't imagine that they aren't underextracted
Hi Dan, Thanks for the comment. Not sure where you got 18 - 20. If from the app screens understand things are happening prior to timing start in the app. Also app only starts recording timing at first drip.
Hi Marc. I would like to know if you still sell the single boiler ecm classika pid with flow control. Its out of stock, your the only seller that has it and ecm website dosen't have it with the flow control only with pid only.
Hi Garnett, We do still sell the Classika with flow control. It is out of stock at the moment. The Classika is made near Milan, Italy. There were virus related slow downs in production there and higher than normal demand elsewhere. Production is back and we hope to have more soon. Marc
I purchased a profitech 700 with flow control from your company in October and now I notice that when the knob is turned wide open, the pressure gauge on the brew head only gets to about 8 bar while the brew pressure on the machine shows nine bar. While the flow rate is fine, the espresso seems thinner. On this video, the gauge didn't show 9 bar either when you ran it open. Is there something I need to do to restore the pressure at the head? I have cleaned the machine to no effect
Hi scott, thanks for for an excellent question and your patronage! Your timing is perfect. I'm currently working on a video covering the basics of brew pressure. I'm using an ECM Classika machine with flow control in the video. What you are seeing is normal - and look for my video on brew pressure basics to post tomorrow 3/5. During an extraction you are seeing "dynamic" brew pressure indicated on the gauges. During brewing the group mounted gauge will almost always read lower than the gauge on the machine face. It's measuring pressure in the group so much closer to where pressure is releasing from the filter basket. The machine gauge measures pressure much further up the brewing system hydraulics. What you'll see in my brew pressure video is a drop of .8 to 1.2 bar between machine gauge and group gauge depending on grind size. ~1 bar drop is normal for a dialed in extraction. Thinner espresso may be due to other variables like grind size etc. 8 bar at the group is perfectly fine and normal. One thing I should mention... You may want to close the flow control a bit and not run wide open. At wide open potential flow rate is a few grams per second higher than on a machine with standard mushroom valve. Hope that helps! Marc
really excellent job on the video and flow information. I even learned some info on the acaia scale and brewmaster app. Is there any eta on when we can order the flow control as an add onto other machines with same brew head?
Hi Chris, Thanks for the comment and question! We do hope to have the FCD upgrade available again soon. It's been very popular with demand outpacing supply. Check back here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-e61-flow-control-device Marc
Very nice video. This may have been arsk before but the scale your using... Brand? Is this for more pore over coffee and will this a able to fit under a rocket aparttamnto? Thanks grate vid and info as always
Hi GS, Thanks for the comment and question. Scale is the Acaia Lunar: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-lunar-espresso-scale It can be used for pour over but the Acaia Pearl scale has a larger platform so might be better suited depending on carafe size. The Lunar will work on the Rocket Appartamento. I just checked fit with a spouted PF and no problem. For espresso there's also the new Acaia Pyxis: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-pyxis It's tiny with a very cool hard case so can carry around in a pocket. Marc
Hi CM, You can adjust brew pressure with the flow control installed - works like a blind basket. Just close it and lift the lever. Then adjust to 10 bar on the machine gauge for vibration pump machines and 9 bar for rotary pump machines. You can do prior to FCD install using a blind basket and set to pressures stated above. Hope that helps! Marc
Haven’t seen the flow control on ECM’s website yet. Heard they are coming with their own Leveller and their own wooden handle-sets on the portafilters.
Hi JG, We have carried the FCD upgrade before. Then popularity took off and it's been difficult for supply to keep up with demand. We do hope to have them available again soon individually. If in US check here for availability: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-e61-flow-control-device Marc
I'm a little confused. You said a 1/2 turn is 4.5 grams per second but you pulled 41.9 grams in 22 seconds which is 1.9 grams per second. Is that the flow rate without coffee in the portafilter? If so, wouldn't it be better to measure the pressure/flow by the pressure gage, i.e. 1/4 turn for 15 seconds and then a 1/2 turn and 6 bar until desired yield is reached? Great video by the way, you guys are the best. No flow control for the ECM Technika V Profi PID?
Hi Jesse, Yes, flow rates at valve positions represent maximum potential flow rates. One can chase pressures if desired. I prefer considering only the flow rate. The pressure gauge provides some information like showing pressure drop at a constant flow rate as the puck gives up solids. That information could drive flow rate adjustment during an extraction. Marc
Hi, I fitted flow control to my ECM Sync with the new spring included but find the flow builds very fast from Off to 4g/sec in 1/8 turn, beyond 1/8th almost unusable flow its so high. Should I be adjusting the pump? Pump shows 9 bar, 9.5 in group with blind filter. Any advice Thanks Graham
Hey Graham, No need to adjust your pump. 9 - 9.5 bar with blind is perfect. Sounds like you may need to adjust position of the sleeve on top of the flow control to allow the valve to fully close. Can check if this is problem by running pump with no PF in place. If you fully close the valve do you still get flow from the group? If so, then that's the problem. Sleeve is held in position by turning the control knob. If that sleeve is loose on the valve stem it can drop down and prevent valve from fully closing. To fix loosen the control knob so the sleeve over the valve stem can move up and down on the stem. Then fully close the valve so there's no flow from the group with pump on. Then raise the sleeve on the valve stem a bit so it's not bottomed out when valve is fully closed. You can put a thick card under the sleeve temporarily to hold it's position up a bit while tightening the control knob to hold the valve sleeve in position. Hope that makes sense and solves your high flow rate! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you for the message Marc. I can shut the flow off completely with the flow valve. But even opening it slightly, the flow is quite fast. 0-4g/sec is just 1 or 2 mm of movement, so it opening beyond 1/8 or maybe 1/4 turn makes no difference, as the pressure relief must open...the flow is so fast.
Brilliant video - very informative. I'm hanging out for more info on how manipulating flow can increase or decrease certain flavours and characteristics. I have a flow control on my new Profitec Pro 700 but am unsure how to utilise it best. These videos are just what I need. Keep 'em coming!
Hi Steven, Thanks for the comment. We will have more videos on using flow. A couple of general principles... As seen in this video: Long low flow pre-infusion for very fresh from roast specialty coffees to reduce acidity/brightness. For older coffee: Full flow to start then ramp it down as extraction progresses to avoid pulling out stale flavors. Coffee shots: Use a continuous extra low flow, medium (filter/drip) grind size with extraction time out to 60 seconds. Part of the fun with flow is trying different profiles with a particular coffee and taste the affect. Marc
Hey Michael, if using a standard brew ratio of 1:2 you’d want 66g by weight in your cup. Weight is far more accurate than volume in ml. Using volume you have to guess a bit because Crema doesn’t weigh much. So if using a coffee which produces a lot the volume could be more than 70ml including crema. Marc
@@MichaelGreco Hey Michael, Here's a link to our espresso cup collection. There are some 2.3 and 3oz cups there: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/cups-and-saucers?_=pf&pf_pt_cup_style=Espresso%20Cup My favorite for your application are the 3oz NotNeutral glasses and the Fellow Monty 3oz Demitasse Cup Set . Hope that helps! Marc
Can anybody point me to some source explaining the difference between manipulation of flow and manipulation of pressure? For instance, in this particular case, if one had used a manual lever machine (with pressure gauge) and had chosen to begin the extraction at very low pressure, in what dimensions of flavour should we expect the result to be different to an extraction with low initial flow? What I mean is that I can "picture" in my mind the effect of grinding, the effect of tampering, the effect of pressure (the higher the pressure the "deeper" the extraction of substances from inside the cells) but I cannot figure in my mind the difference, in taste, between pressure effect and flow effect. A slow flow should simply extract slowly, a fast flow, if too fast, should simply dilute the coffee with water. It's pressure which breaks the cell membranes and extract substances, not "flow".
Getting in depth into flow control would be helpful. I’m confused if how much controlling the amount of water coming out of the group head is affecting pressure. I remember from high school physics the Venturi effect. When you constrict a path for fluids it creates an area of high speed low pressure”why a plane flys” is this valve doing that. Sorry to be so in the weeds nerdy. Just trying to understand.
Hi M, I love nerdy! The flow control device is a relatively long distance from the coffee puck. Any speed increase dissipates rapidly. By the time water reaches the coffee it can be a gentle trickle. Good demo of that in this video where I measure flow rates at various valve positions: ruclips.net/video/P1Vz7aa_KtI/видео.html Marc
Hi Mark, I recently read a paper "Systematically Improving Espresso: Insights from Mathematical Modeling and Experiment", which suggests to coarse the grind setting, reduce input to 15g and brew time to 15s and still a really good 40g shot. Would try this new recipe and give some comments comparing current parameters vs this science-suggested recipe? Thanks!
Hi neville, I've been asked about the article many times. I need to have a go at comparing but honestly I'm rather skeptical. Here's the comment I've given numerous times with my thoughts... Better Shots? What I read is the beverage was more consistent in flavor shot to shot. Easier to get the same flavor, but was that flavor good? I've had plenty of shots with grind too coarse and lower coffee dose and they are weak, sour, lacking body - under-extracted. From the Science Daily article: "Though there are clear strategies to reduce waste and improve reproducibility, there is no obvious optimal espresso point," says Hendon. "There is a tremendous dependency on the preferences of the person producing the coffee; we are elucidating the variables that they need to consider if they want to better navigate the parameter space of brewing espresso." The article had some focus on "sustainability benefits". IDK... I like a good 12oz steak. If I and everyone else starts eating 8oz steaks that's more sustainable too. Just don't know if I'm going to be satisfied and makes no difference if all my 8oz steaks tasted the same. I don't want them to. I like it when I run into a 12oz steak with exceptional flavor based on comparison to some other really good ones. All very good steaks, but one stood out like a god shot! Honestly sounds like they're making short coffee shots and not what most would consider espresso. More consistent flavor? That might be easier with a coarser grind due to lower flow variable affects. And, maybe it's a flavor that works for some. We have a lot of former (and some current) baristas on staff here. When a new one comes on board I always ask them what percentage of their customers even know there's espresso in the latte they ordered. The answer is usually in the 20-30% range. That number goes up if they came from a specialty cafe or micro-roaster. IDK maybe weaker, consistent "espresso" works for the Starbucks crowd? Not for me. If anything I'm going the opposite direction more coffee and sticking with the finer grind. I've been on a triple shot kick for a few weeks and loving the deep, rich, straight shots with lots of body! Marc
Hey guys I am going to create a coffee bar in the near future. Right now I have a Breville barista express. This machine has served me well making on average 4 milk based drinks a day for 3 years. I currently have my water running through a softener then and RO system. As I fill the tank with RO water I add drips of minerals back in. I have a couple questions? 1. If I plumb in water line will the inline filters that use ion exchange still work if the water has been through and RO system. Not sure if those filters rely on calcium being present in the water to complete the exchange of minerals 2. I have narrowed it down to Prof Pro 700 and Bez duo. I like the volumetric on the Bez, but really like the organization of internals on Prof. What is the difference in group heads when it come to maintenance and temp stability. Also which machine in your opinion will is better in terms of reliability and taste in th cup? Thank you
Hi M, Thanks for the questions. 1. If referring to a BWT Bestmax Premium inline ion-exchange filter I would not connect that directly to the output of an RO system. You can use an inline BWT BestMin cartridge to remineralize RO water: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmin-premium-m-filter-cartridge Perhaps your situation is similar to the one in this customer comment on the Bestmin page linked above: "Well water with 25 grain hardness is softened leaving 450 ppm NaCl which is removed by RO. RO water is treated through this unit yielding TDS of about 90 making great coffee with an ECM double boiler machine. Highly recommended." 2. The Pro 700 and Bezzara Duo DE are both nice machines. The Duo uses Bezzera's BZ group which is electrically heated and temp controlled using PID. The Pro 700 uses an E61 group with thermosiphon for heating. The electric heating of the BZ group helps to warm up the machine faster. Both provide accurate brew temps and if warmup time is concern you can power the Pro 700 through properly sized smart plug for automatic turn on so it's ready to go when you are. The Pro 700 is a lot less complex internally than the Duo. Long term it's the more reliable machine IMHO. For about the same price as the Duo you can get a Pro 700 with Flow Control on the E61 group which opens up a world of possibilities. Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison with current pricing for both machines: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NjAwNDEzNTk5NSwyMDM4MTQ2NzI3OTkw Hope that helps! Marc
In the comments to another video on youtube a person said he found the flow control tricky to handle, said it reacted very slow. Looking at your video it seems super easy (even though finding a good profile for different coffees of course is difficult) and the flow seems to adjust immediately. Is it this easy? Could he be chasing a certain preasure instead of focusing on flow rate?
Hi s, Thanks for the question. Sure sounds like someone is chasing pressures. While that can be done IMO it's not the best way to approach using flow control. In most cases I give very little regard to pressure reading. Depends on what type of profile you are using but in my experience and in research there's little difference in extraction quality in brew pressures ranging from ~6-10 bar. That's a simplification to some extent which does not consider edge use cases. IMO and that of the coffee pros I work with around the world flow rate which determines brew water contact time with coffee is far more important than brew pressure and a much easier variable to work with. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi! A follow up question here. When profiling by using flow rate is that in a way relative to your machines flow rate? What I mean is the machines you have with rotary pump have a flow rate of about 11 ml/s, the ones with vibration pump about 8 ml/s, there are also machines with about 5,5 ml/s, still I guess all machines have about the same flow rate through the coffee when having 9 bar. Will this mean that when profiling your espresso the flow rate will be relative what machine you are using. 50% in one machine is totally different from another. Hope you understand what I mean! :)
Lastly I’ve seen that the first drip of my espresso is going too quickly, as soon as I let the water flow the espresso will start flowing too, some help?
Hi Marc, awesome video, I am thinking of getting the flow control device for my Profitec 700. Would you say the pre-infusion without the flow control device is kind of useless in the Profitec 700? I have tried doing pre-infusion but it is not turning out great for me, as soon as I see the first drops, I put the lever up but the shot comes really fast and makes a mess.
Hi Mario, Thanks for the comment and question. Flow control opens up a new world of possibilities for sure. I do not believe pre-infusion is useless without the flow control. It's just not as controllable. On a plumbed in Pro 700 one can do a long low flow/pressure pre-infusion and tune the pre-infusion with a pressure regulator on the plumbed in connection. That will definitely help take the brightness bite out of very fresh from roast single origin coffee. If your shot is coming too fast after a pre-infusion that's typically an indication grind needs to be finer. Might try dialing in your grind with no pre-infusion and then use that grind size when you do pre-infusion. But, there is no doubt controlling the flow rate gives one more possibilities. Marc
Obviously the FC produces a great shot for fresh roast. Obviously for tinkerers. I wonder if it’s too much hassle for average user who just want a decent coffee each day without over thinking it? Keep the videos coming!
Hi squib, Thanks for the comment - we will keep the vids coming! FC does helps a lot with the fresh roast! A bunch of other uses as well. I've touched on some in other videos but will go more in-depth down the road. I'll tease a couple... Hitting a not so fresh coffee with high flow at the start and then decreasing the flow as the shot progresses to avoid pulling stale flavors. Mimic shots pulled on manual lever and other machine types, pressure profiling via the group gauge, using filter/drip grind size and reducing flow rate for long coffee/coffee shots. Marc
Hey! Love the videos, I have the ECM slim with flow control from you guys, just got it. and i'm having mega issues having the drip come out way too fast. My beans were Pre-ground for espresso. What size did you use for this video? Or machine and machine settings? My coffee is coming out about 3x as fast and SUPER watery.
Hi Tristan, Thanks a whole latte for the love and your patronage! Your problem is the pre-ground. There's no specific grind size that works universally for espresso. Grind size must be dialed in to match your own espresso extraction variables. Very small changes in grind size can make a huge difference in extraction timing. A grind size which works well in one machine will almost always need adjustment if it's used on another. Grind size is not set and forget. As variables change like the coffee you are using, coffee's age from roast, coffee dose weight in your portafilter, brew temp, etc your grind size will need adjustment. For that reason very few people (like near zero) using prosumer level machines like yours use pre-ground coffee. Grinding fresh right before brewing will exponentially increase youir espresso quality. Here's a video on how to dial in grind size: ruclips.net/video/jOY7D02n4Cw/видео.html What need is a quality espresso oriented flat burr grinder. One that can grind directly into your portafilter. The Mignon Facile is a bare bones lower cost grinder which has those qualities: www.wholelattelove.com/products/eureka-mignon-facile-espresso-grinder So what can you do with the pre-ground you have? Increasing the dose weight in your portafilter will slow down the extraction if you can fit more. Tamping harder might help a little too. Also be sure your flow control is set properly. Turn it 1.25 turns open from the closed no flow position. That gets you the stock flow rate of the machine without flow control and that's where you want to be when first dialing in or working with a new coffee. If you're already set there I don't think increasing the dose weight or tamping pressure will be enough to correct for shots coming 3x too fast. I hope that helps! Marc
i would love to hear your thoughts/experience on profiling (and any specific starting points) for milk-based drinks, which are typically my go-to. while there is great joy in experimenting with the paddle for straight-up shots, i have experienced an issue whereby a standard 1:2 brew ratio (which worked wonderfully on my older/way cheaper Breville, same beans and same dose) no longer "cuts" through the milk, resulting in a weak milky drink. a ~1:1 ristretto with paddle full open gave me much better results, but i feel like i have yet to maximise the potential of the beans. what are your thoughts on flow profiling/recipes for milk drinks? cheers.
Hi Shing, Thanks for an interesting question. I have not done profiling in an attempt to get more coffee flavor through the milk. I honestly am not a big milk-based drink drinker unless it's a cortado, flat white or random wet cappuccino. I dislike gulping straight milk. I want the espresso to be featured so my milk drinks tend to be a 1:2 or lower espresso to milk ratio. If using flow control on espresso for those I'd do what I think is best for the espresso without much thought to the milk. So taming brightness in very fresh from roast coffee with long low flow pre-infusion to first drip at ~15 seconds then increase to a medium flow rate. Or hitting bean blends or older coffee with high flow to start then a linear ramping off of flow/pressure to avoid bitter or stale flavors. I will say that with some coffees like bolder Italian style blends I'm okay with them go long as the bitterness gets tamed a bit by the milk and helps the espresso cut through. Marc
Hi Jonathan, Congrats on your new machine! Which ECM did you get? You must watch one of my more recent videos on flow control. You can have too much flow! Never run with the flow control wide open. Stock flow rate without flow control is ~11g/s on rotary pump machines and ~8g/s on vibration pump machines. Open your flow control all the way and you'll get close to 30g/s on a rotary machine. Here's a live stream (it's long) I did a couple of weeks ago on flow control. It goes through the calibration procedure so you know how to set for a stock flow rate then goes into some ways to use flow: ruclips.net/video/BkwP3JYrk-A/видео.html. Starting this Thursday, April 30 I'll be doing a series of live streams over a couple of weeks featuring different flow profiles. This week's is a profile for working with very fresh from roast high-altitude specialty coffee. Marc
Hi Martin, Thanks for the comment and question. As mentioned we currently have the flow control available out of the box on ECM Classika and Synchronika. Also available with Profitec Pro 500, 600 and 700. All machines are available without the FCD as well. We do hope to have upgrade kits back in stock soon for use on other machines. Can be installed on just about any existing E61 group machine. Currently demand for those is outpacing supply. Marc
You guys definitely know what you are talking about. Rare but really welcomed skill here on RUclips, you usually only see in creepy forums. Thumbs up’ed 👍 and subscribed immediately 😍
Hi CM, When using flow we are not overly concerned with brew pressure. There's some good research showing little difference in extraction yields at brew pressures ranging from 6-9 bar. There is a big difference in flavors extracted based on the flow rate. Marc
i love espresso. i want better espresso at home. i use flair signature pro with pressure gauge. this flow control lesson will very usefull for me. thank you for the lesson. i subscribe 👍
Can you feature some items that are good but not so expensive!! Scales, levelers etc. I mean $100-&200 are way over many budgets. There has to be good items that are not so expensive for home use.
Hi O, Thanks for the request. I have done a number of videos on lower cost upgrades like precision filter baskets, shower screens, group gaskets, etc. Marc
Hi, I like this video and the setup a lot, especially the before/after and the approach with scales etc. However there are two things that I don't understand, maybe you can help me out here: 1) in the first shot, to me it looks like you have really massive channeling, right at the start of the shot, which is .. well, very bad. I would assume that the extraction is pretty uneven, and that you would taste this. You mention channeling briefly, but like as an aside. If this were in the last third of the shot, I would be less concerned. But here, you almost have spurts to the side. That's really bad. And I would assume that this is either due to bad prep (grind distribution / tamping etc), or not the grind is already too fine. Are you sure this is not due to "leveling only", and lack of tamping? 2) you do a slow, long pre-infusion, then you go up to 6 bars of pressure. I would be curious to know why you did not go higher than that (classic 8-9 bars) - is there a reason? Don't get me wrong - I like the setup and I think the video is great!
Hi j, Thanks for the comment and questions. It's been a long time since I did the video so not certain on #1. It's entirely possible there was channeling. With proper leveling I get more consistent shots than with tamping alone. IMO hard tamping is over rated. You can only compress coffee so much. Also I tend to grind finer. On #2... Long slow pre-infusions and lower flow rate extractions are a common way of taming the brightness in fresh from roast specialty coffees. I'm not very concerned with the brew pressure. It's more about the flow rate of water through the coffee. Flow and pressure are related but not one in the same. There's some good research showing little difference in extraction of solids in brew pressures ranging from 6-9bar. Marc
I think I gonna build mine back. I really think it's just not worth it for me at least. I mean I have a nice preinfusion by default from my Mara X and I only drink dark roast, no fancy "single origin 100% arabica washed Ethiopian" . It's just not for me. It's expensive, it's a little struggle to get into, you could break something easily if not mindful while installing. So with that being said.... Does anybody want to buy a Flow profile Kit with a paddle for a Mara X ? 😂
interesting... the flow control shot looked very noticeably what looks likes better shot I guess this is why Oracle has about 21 gram dose and a simple 2-step flow control
Great video team. Love the content. If 7 days for this particular coffee, is considered fresh from roast and therefore needs slower preinfusion to mitigate the potential, unwelcome acidity. Then at what age would the coffee be considered "rested", and therefore suitable for a standard espresso recipe pulled at 9bar/30 seconds (or thereabouts)?
Hi Sam, Great question! Unfortunately I don't have a great answer for you. It depends on some variables like how coffee was stored etc. Would likely be very different at 2 weeks. Prior to making this video I worked with the coffee at 2, 3 and 4 days from roast. One aspect that changed daily was grind size. Every day a little finer as the coffee aged. Marc
Thanks for the comment. Consider this... Grind can only be compressed so much. Then further compression has no impact other than sore arm. I can use a capable leveler and compress the grind enough a dry puck can be knocked out in a single piece. In my experience compressing further - tamping with more force has no affect on an extraction.
Hey aA, thanks for adding your opinion. When using flow I pay very little attention to brew pressure. Lots of research showing very little difference in extractions in a range of 6-9bar. Changing the flow rate which actually removes solids from the coffee has a much greater impact. Also give leveling a try! Much easier and far more consistent IMO. The leveling does compress the coffee with the tool I was using. Cheers, Marc
Sorry Guys I don’t wish to offend, I just thought it looked Funny😂😂😂👍. Just to let you know I recently purchased a New ECM Classika along with a OCD Distribution Tool, I have been watching your Videos on RUclips have been taking your Advice on board, Thanks again guys I think you are doing a Top Job, especially the way the World is Travelling these days. Cheers from Roger in Sydney Australia.👍👍👌
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Your video is so on point! Just upgraded my Lucca M58 with flow control (had to purchase from distributor because you don’t have them in stock 😂, sorry). My favorite drip / pour over is this Ethiopian Y coffee, but always hated it as an espresso because it is too bright. I tried the same long preinfusion and wow - all the brightness / acidity gone and tastes amazing! Thanks so much for these videos.
Hi Mario, You are welcome and thanks for the comment! The extended low flow really does make a huge difference with the very fresh coffees!
Marc
Excellent content please don’t ever stop
Just set up my flow control yesterday. I wanted to take a minute to thank Mark and Todd for all the videos as they were incredibly helpful. I’ve watched just about every one of your videos and they make a huge difference. Love my ECM synchronika and Ceado E37S. Fabulous combination. If your on the fence about investing in these products I can say without hesitation they are well worth it. Your mornings will be even more wonderful 👍🏻
Hi Chris, Thanks for the kind comments and reccomendation. The Synchronika plus E37S is a wonderful combo!
Marc
Awesome video. Just ordered my ECM classika with flow control. Can’t wait to experiment with it.
Hey F, thanks for the comment. Have fun experimenting with FC!
Marc
10:15
Hi guys!
Just got a new Profitec 500 with flow control! Still learning a lot. Great videos!
In this video it looked like the portafilter was just leveled and not tamped. Did I see that wrong? If it wasn't tamped why is that?
Thank you!
Hey rich, congrats on the new machine and thanks for your comment on vids! Yes, with a properly set and capable leveler like this one: www.wholelattelove.com/products/asso-coffee-the-jack-leveler-light-wood
It is possible to compress the coffee enough that tamping is not required. Some level and still tamp. Here's a video on that leveler: ruclips.net/video/4Z5vTi643sc/видео.html
Marc
coffee like beer and wine has so much complexity itrs no wonder we differ in slight emphasys.. LOVE UUU GUYS!
Hey Matthew, Thanks for the comment. 100% slight changes in variables etc produce different results.
Marc
Marc - why not level and tamp? I level for an even surface but keep the blades high to minimize compression of the grounds. Then I tamp the level bed. Works great!
perfectly explained all here with nice setup of screen for us. thanks mike and all behind this.
Hi Ahmet, Thanks for the comment Todd and I appreciate!
Marc
Thank you for this in-depth video guys. As someone who drinks Americano and milk-based drinks would I benefit from flow control? I also mainly use medium to dark roast.
Hey MP, You are welcome! Americanos for sure. Changing flavor using flow in those will be very apparent. Let's say you have a dark roast coming off as too roasty or bitter. You could use a lower flow as the extraction progresses to reduce those flavors. In milk drinks the flavor difference is still there but maybe a little hidden. Depends on ratios. Very apparent in a short double shot flat white maybe not so much in a large single shot caffe latte. Depending on what you like you might even try to increase bitterness to balance the sweetness of the milk. Hope that helps!
Marc
It took you guys 2 years to convince me me to install a flow control to my Pro 700. :) Somehow I just wasn't getting it. Now I get it. :) I wish I had bought in 2020, but it's like having a new machine now. Nice video. I really love having the incremental control over flow and flavor.
Hi S, Thanks for sharing your experience! Flow control really does make a difference! For those unfamiliar with flow control I did a more recent video featuring 2 super easy flow profiles based on coffee freshness and roast level that make a huge difference: ruclips.net/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/видео.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Marc I use the profiles as a starting point, and use variations as I become familiar each coffee. The profiles have been helpful directionally. //Stan
Nice video! What is the name of the scales used for weighing the coffee in the portafilter? Not the ones on the drip tray - unless they are the same haha.
Hello! Can i use this flow control in a ECM mechanika IV profi Heat Exchanger?
Hi m, yes you can. ECM/Profitec flow control devices are compatible with all of their E61 group machines.
Marc
Great video. What is brightness?
Hi mxm, Thanks for the comment. Brightness is sharp acidic flavor common in coffee fresh from roast.
Marc
Loved the video. Great device. My only comment would be that I would have ground the coffee a bit finer first in order to tone down the brightness, because both shots (IMHO) were brewed just too fast.
Hi Javier, Thanks for the comment. So many variables! Finer grind may have helped. Love your comment as I'll probably have someone complaining the second shot at ~38 seconds from pump on wast too long! If they only knew!!!
Marc
After spending a few months with the Pathfinder, I’m ready to start getting into flow control. Like all WLL videos, this video was quite helpful. Excited!
Hey 80's kid, it's going to rock your espresso world!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage
Just tried it. I’m floored rn…for a while I was wondering if I should have gone with a PID system instead, but I certainly chose correctly. Still shocked!! I buy from Blank Street, and usually get beans only a couple days off of roast, if not day of. This flow control game is serious business…so appreciative!! Thank you 🙏🏼 WOW!!!
Thank you WLL for all the great videos. I have the Profitec 500 with flow control and have a weird issue going on when using it. I can set it at 1.25 turn, counter clockwise turn, open from closed and 36g pulls in 28 sec. I can close to .5 turn from close and the shot will pull in under 20 sec. This happens over and over. Any ideas why this is happening? Thank you
Hey ch, you are welcome for the videos! Lower flow rates generally require a finer grind size. High flow rates can push fines through the coffee puck resulting in more restriction and a slower shot. Hope that helps!
Marc
Really cool to see how visibly different the extract was by starting with a slower flow rate! Definitely less channeling, and better color on the 2nd one! Currently, I have a Flair Pro, and I guess you can say it has a "manual" flow control lol
Glad you enjoyed it!
Marc
Hi Marc,
Why only the European have those Pro Espresso Machines? It's a low Interest in North America to build something great like ECM, or it's just because they don't have generally that skills and History to prudoced it?
Thx Nikita
Hi Nikita, Think you hit the nail on the head with skills and history in Italy. Companies like Bezzera have been making these machines for more than a 100 years!
Marc
Cos in the US they drink filter coffee mostly. Its in all the US movies too.
So with the flow control can you use it to pre infusion the pro 500
Hi Samantha, Yes you can!
Marc
Hello wholelattelove, I still do not understand the difference between pressure profiling and flow rate control. From my understanding, pressure the pump generates affects the flow rate. So, if we make pressure profile, we also controlling the flow rate. Am I missing something here?
Hi HK, Pressure and flow are related but not the same. Imagine you are pulling a shot and the timing isn't quite right so you adjust the grind size. If you're pressure profiling the pressure will be the same with a new grind size but the flow rate will be different. If you're flow profiling in the same situation the flow rate stays the same with a change in grind size and the pressure will likely be similar. There's research showing little difference in dissolved solids in cup whether one extracts at 6 bar or 9 bar. Conversely changing flow rate does impact in cup TDS as it's flow which removes solids from the coffee puck. Bottom line: flow rate is more impactful. Changing pressure changes both brew pressure and flow rate while changing flow rate keeps the pressure about the same with only flow rate changing.
Marc
Hi WLL, I have a question about the normal flow shot at around 3:00. Is there a reason the pump pressure is set just above 8 bar instead of 9? Also my flow control kit is about 1/4 turn off from your tutorial and in another reaction to this video's 1 1/4 turn for normal flow rate. So on my ECM Synchronika the flow control is 1 turn to get around 11g/s, is this too much off?
Hi g, Thanks for the questions. Machine gauge read 8.5 and group was 7.5 - likely because the grind was a bit coarse. But, not concerned at all with the brew pressure. There can be some variation in flow rates based on valve position. Also minor errors in calculation.
For flow rate at valve position: One thing to check is if you get no flow when the valve is closed. Not unusual for the sleeve on the shaft of the flow control to drop down a little when the valve is open. Then when you go to close the sleeve prevents the valve from closing all the way.
Marc
Hi Marc, incidentally I have started a bag of 'cheffe (11 days from roast) , just beans are smaller and more roasted than I see in your video. Beans are denser than Sumatra or Honduras, to say, and probably that's a reason why regular shot can be light and lack a bite (I've noticed it, and agree to you and Todd). As my machine doesn't change flow rate, I balance grind and time to have extraction longer than I'd use for other beans - yielding same amount (around 35 sec - similar to your 38 sec). I realise my results aren't same as with flow profiling (workaround instead of solution) but I can see use for this tech. Thanks for video! I hope ECM will do right w/ Puristika, it could be ticking most of boxes for me.
Hi E 42, Thanks for detailed comment love it a "whole latte" and you are welcome for the video! We are looking forward to more on the ECM Puristika. For those who are all about Espresso and specialty coffee it should be quite the machine!
Marc
Mark, I think your videos point out that a typical shot with 18 grams of dry grinds produces 36 grams of coffee which is about 2 ounces in volume. Does that mean that if youre pulling a single shot with 9 grams of dry grinds, your finished product should be around 1 ounce in volume and weigh 18 grams of liquid espresso?
Hey RG, Thanks for the question. Weighing your shot will always be more accurate than using liquid volumes due to difficulty in estimating a real volume with variations in crema. If you have a scale forget about liquid volumes and start at a 1:2 weight ratio.
Marc
Nice video for tasting comparative but why do you don't tamp ?
Hi XM, Thanks for the question. I switched to using a leveler about 18 months ago and have not looked back.
@@Wholelattelovepage Yeah me too, but this is still require a tamper
Hi guys! Thank you so much for this informative video. Would the slower flow affect the flavor profile of medium or darker roasts as well? I mainly drink medium roasts and recently have purchased Profitec Pro 500 with flow control. I'm curious.
Hi Josh, You're welcome for the video! Slower flow will affect medium and dark roasts as well. In most cases I tend to use a higher flow rate initially and reduce the rate as the extraction progresses for darker roasts. But if a coffee is relatively fresh from roast like within 3 weeks I'd try a low flow rate start. The low flow helps reduce brightness by allowing CO2 still locked up in the beans to off-gas prior to digging in to the extraction with a higher flow rate. Here's a video which simplifies that concept: ruclips.net/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/видео.html
Marc
You guys are working HARD to capture all this stuff! Thanks so much! This is one of my primary hangups actually and one that I'd like to try to tackle in the future. I always have a lot of light to medium roasts around and when pulled for espresso they rip my face off with acidity. For that reason I pull daily-driver espresso milk beverages with Red Bird which is a "classic profile" and save the 3rd wave stuff for pour over. I'd like to get to the point where I can tone down that acidity and this gives me good ideas. I'm using a Silvia with a MeCoffee PID which can dim the pump and result in a simulation of flow profiling (with preinfusion). So far I've been told to focus mainly on temperature (higher) which I can also do with the PID so now it's just a question of adding these other two variables into the mix. A followup video that addresses Temp, preinfusion, and flow profiling would of course be very welcome!
Hi d, Thanks for the comment with all the detail - awesome and appreciated! Just had a conversion Todd. We discussed potentially doing some of what you suggest using a Dalla Corte XT 3 group machine. Using that, we can set each group to a different brew temp and flow rate and pull 3 shots simultaneously and do some comparing!
Marc
Hi Marc! What are your thoughts about a stiffer/harder spring to „shut off“ the E61-built in preinfusion chamber, delivered with the latest version of the ECM flow control kit? Necessary using this with a rotary pump or not? Curious about your thoughts. Thx for all your great videos, btw! Cheers, Tom
I really hope to get an answer...
Hi Thomas, Sorry for the delay. We spoke with Michael Hauck at ECM about the harder spring. Purpose is to prevent filling of the pre-infusion chamber so all control goes to the flow control device with no delay. I do not believe it's essential. More of a running upgrade for tighter initial control of flow.
Marc
Whole Latte Love Thanks a lot for your thoughts!
Hi Thomas & Marc, I have a Synchronika and I found it annoying, before I fitted the FC kit, that a shot of hot water would hit the tray when I lowered the lever. It messed up the front of the machine and required frequent cleaning.
Now, with the stiffer spring, that problem is gone! I was previously thinking of a diffuser design to stop the mess but now I don't have to.
Love the bottomless pours..it certainly makes a better brew-Great job Marc.!
Hi J, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Any idea what the regular flow control is without the device installed? As I lost my benchmark for dialing in new beans.
Hi JG, Yes stock flow is 11g/s for rotary pump machine and 8g/s on vibes. You’ll get that flow with FCD opened 1.25 turns with either pump type.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I’m at
1/8 open 1,75
1/4 open 3,07
1/2 open 4,96
3/4 open 7,25
1/1 open 9,46
5/4 open 11,15
So my benchmark for grind-settings should be at 5/4 open. I just have to figure out how to do a pre-infusion as the stream gets unstable. So I am doing something wrong 🤭.
Thnkx again, you guys rock!
Awesome work. This is my setup!!! Duelling scales with calculated flow rate for each shot! Will try your extended, super-low flow.
Thanks for the video!
Hi Mark, Thanks for the comment! 2 scales makes doing brew ratios easier. Let me know how your low flow shots turn out with coffee used and any other details.
Marc
Mr. Mark, on the other video (How To: Espresso Brew Pressure Check & Adjustment) you have said that 9 bar is the optimal pressure for brewing espresso, but here i see the pressure was less than 6 bars. 1) Do you still need to keep the pressure at 9 bars with the flow control or not necessary or depends on personal preferences. 2) i have watched your How To: Home Espresso - 5 Tips for Newbies, once i setup the machines accordingly, do i play with the flow control afterwards to make even better espressos? Sincerely
Ben
Hi Ben, Thanks for the questions. When doing flow control pressures can go lower - often much lower than the standard extraction 9 bar. You do not need to always be at 9 bar and it's very common to not be. In reality I often pay little attention to pressure when running flow profiles. There's some good research which shows very little difference in extraction yields from espresso pulled in a range of 6-9 bar.
Yes, setup your machine and make some espresso aty normal flow rates. On ECM/Profitec machines normal flow rates are obtained with the valve open 1.25 turns. From there do experiment with flow and taste to see how various rates change the flavor. Here's a link with more info about stock flow rates and graphs of 5 flow profiles for use in differenr coffee situations: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
The profiles in the article were developed by me.
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Whole Latte. I have some questions reagarding this new video. I own ECM Mechanika V Slim with installed the FCD (Flow Control Device).
Did you try complete close this flow control? Are you able still get some water flow? Or it is complete closed?
Did you measure flow in ml/s with fully open and fully closed FCD without portafilter? If yes, can you share with us please?
I wanna compare with my measurements:
Fully closed = 5ml/s
Fully open = 9,5ml/s
Thank you
Hi JK, Thanks for the question. Fully closed you should get no flow. You may need to adjust your FCD. Here is a video showing how to do that: ruclips.net/video/Cicw5_EAOXU/видео.html Also in the video I go through measuring flow rates at various valve positions up to fully open.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Wow, it was really helpful. I was missing about 1/4 turn to full close FCD! You were right.
Now I also have no flow when the FCD is fully closed. Thank you for help!
Compared to stock grind setting, how “fine” can / should you go when using flow control
Do you think the Puristika will be rotary or vibe?
Vibe, I think they explained it and sound during extraction confirms this. Size of a machine puts certain limits, too.
Hi E, Will have more details down the road on the machine. Typical rotary pump/motor unlikely to fit in the case as you mention.
Marc
I love and really appreciate all the WLL videos and all the hard work that everyone puts into making them ...
but 18-20 second shots?!? I can't imagine that they aren't underextracted
Hi Dan, Thanks for the comment. Not sure where you got 18 - 20. If from the app screens understand things are happening prior to timing start in the app. Also app only starts recording timing at first drip.
@@Wholelattelovepage
my bad, It was the app time, from first drip to last drip, not actual brew time.
Hi Marc. I would like to know if you still sell the single boiler ecm classika pid with flow control. Its out of stock, your the only seller that has it and ecm website dosen't have it with the flow control only with pid only.
Hi Garnett, We do still sell the Classika with flow control. It is out of stock at the moment. The Classika is made near Milan, Italy. There were virus related slow downs in production there and higher than normal demand elsewhere. Production is back and we hope to have more soon.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you very much. I'll keep saving my pennies when it's finally released.
Great video, rock and roll with flow control, appreciate all the hard work, fun and informative videos you do for us coffee lovers, thank you
Hi Orrin, Rock and Roll for sure! Thanks a whole latte for the comment!
Marc
I purchased a profitech 700 with flow control from your company in October and now I notice that when the knob is turned wide open, the pressure gauge on the brew head only gets to about 8 bar while the brew pressure on the machine shows nine bar. While the flow rate is fine, the espresso seems thinner. On this video, the gauge didn't show 9 bar either when you ran it open. Is there something I need to do to restore the pressure at the head? I have cleaned the machine to no effect
Hi scott, thanks for for an excellent question and your patronage! Your timing is perfect. I'm currently working on a video covering the basics of brew pressure. I'm using an ECM Classika machine with flow control in the video. What you are seeing is normal - and look for my video on brew pressure basics to post tomorrow 3/5. During an extraction you are seeing "dynamic" brew pressure indicated on the gauges. During brewing the group mounted gauge will almost always read lower than the gauge on the machine face. It's measuring pressure in the group so much closer to where pressure is releasing from the filter basket. The machine gauge measures pressure much further up the brewing system hydraulics. What you'll see in my brew pressure video is a drop of .8 to 1.2 bar between machine gauge and group gauge depending on grind size. ~1 bar drop is normal for a dialed in extraction. Thinner espresso may be due to other variables like grind size etc. 8 bar at the group is perfectly fine and normal. One thing I should mention... You may want to close the flow control a bit and not run wide open. At wide open potential flow rate is a few grams per second higher than on a machine with standard mushroom valve. Hope that helps!
Marc
really excellent job on the video and flow information. I even learned some info on the acaia scale and brewmaster app. Is there any eta on when we can order the flow control as an add onto other machines with same brew head?
Hi Chris, Thanks for the comment and question! We do hope to have the FCD upgrade available again soon. It's been very popular with demand outpacing supply. Check back here: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-e61-flow-control-device
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage awesome will do!!!
Really nice video with clear visuals! Thanks! The puck preparation could use some improvement although
Hey Ben thanks for the comment.
Marc
Very nice video. This may have been arsk before but the scale your using... Brand? Is this for more pore over coffee and will this a able to fit under a rocket aparttamnto? Thanks grate vid and info as always
Hi GS, Thanks for the comment and question. Scale is the Acaia Lunar: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-lunar-espresso-scale It can be used for pour over but the Acaia Pearl scale has a larger platform so might be better suited depending on carafe size. The Lunar will work on the Rocket Appartamento. I just checked fit with a spouted PF and no problem. For espresso there's also the new Acaia Pyxis: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-pyxis It's tiny with a very cool hard case so can carry around in a pocket.
Marc
Hi Latte Love how do your have your scale set up? when does the timer start?
Hi AC, For this video I had the scale set to start automatically at first drip.
Marc
Whole Latte Love is that your go to method?
What exactly does this orange coffee taste like, and how did I end up here?
For ECM, what should I set my stock OPV valve pressure at before adding flow control / calibrating?
Hi CM, You can adjust brew pressure with the flow control installed - works like a blind basket. Just close it and lift the lever. Then adjust to 10 bar on the machine gauge for vibration pump machines and 9 bar for rotary pump machines. You can do prior to FCD install using a blind basket and set to pressures stated above. Hope that helps!
Marc
Haven’t seen the flow control on ECM’s website yet. Heard they are coming with their own Leveller and their own wooden handle-sets on the portafilters.
Hi JG, We have carried the FCD upgrade before. Then popularity took off and it's been difficult for supply to keep up with demand. We do hope to have them available again soon individually. If in US check here for availability: www.wholelattelove.com/products/ecm-e61-flow-control-device
Marc
I'm a little confused. You said a 1/2 turn is 4.5 grams per second but you pulled 41.9 grams in 22 seconds which is 1.9 grams per second. Is that the flow rate without coffee in the portafilter? If so, wouldn't it be better to measure the pressure/flow by the pressure gage, i.e. 1/4 turn for 15 seconds and then a 1/2 turn and 6 bar until desired yield is reached? Great video by the way, you guys are the best. No flow control for the ECM Technika V Profi PID?
Hi Jesse, Yes, flow rates at valve positions represent maximum potential flow rates. One can chase pressures if desired. I prefer considering only the flow rate. The pressure gauge provides some information like showing pressure drop at a constant flow rate as the puck gives up solids. That information could drive flow rate adjustment during an extraction.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Ok, that answers my question. Thanks! 🙂👍
Hi, I fitted flow control to my ECM Sync with the new spring included but find the flow builds very fast from Off to 4g/sec in 1/8 turn, beyond 1/8th almost unusable flow its so high. Should I be adjusting the pump? Pump shows 9 bar, 9.5 in group with blind filter. Any advice Thanks Graham
Hey Graham, No need to adjust your pump. 9 - 9.5 bar with blind is perfect. Sounds like you may need to adjust position of the sleeve on top of the flow control to allow the valve to fully close. Can check if this is problem by running pump with no PF in place. If you fully close the valve do you still get flow from the group? If so, then that's the problem. Sleeve is held in position by turning the control knob. If that sleeve is loose on the valve stem it can drop down and prevent valve from fully closing. To fix loosen the control knob so the sleeve over the valve stem can move up and down on the stem. Then fully close the valve so there's no flow from the group with pump on. Then raise the sleeve on the valve stem a bit so it's not bottomed out when valve is fully closed. You can put a thick card under the sleeve temporarily to hold it's position up a bit while tightening the control knob to hold the valve sleeve in position. Hope that makes sense and solves your high flow rate!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you for the message Marc. I can shut the flow off completely with the flow valve. But even opening it slightly, the flow is quite fast. 0-4g/sec is just 1 or 2 mm of movement, so it opening beyond 1/8 or maybe 1/4 turn makes no difference, as the pressure relief must open...the flow is so fast.
Brilliant video - very informative. I'm hanging out for more info on how manipulating flow can increase or decrease certain flavours and characteristics. I have a flow control on my new Profitec Pro 700 but am unsure how to utilise it best. These videos are just what I need. Keep 'em coming!
Hi Steven, Thanks for the comment. We will have more videos on using flow. A couple of general principles... As seen in this video: Long low flow pre-infusion for very fresh from roast specialty coffees to reduce acidity/brightness. For older coffee: Full flow to start then ramp it down as extraction progresses to avoid pulling out stale flavors. Coffee shots: Use a continuous extra low flow, medium (filter/drip) grind size with extraction time out to 60 seconds. Part of the fun with flow is trying different profiles with a particular coffee and taste the affect.
Marc
Hi Marc! if I do a 22 gram tripple shot, do we still shoot for the same 70 mil shot?
Hey Michael, if using a standard brew ratio of 1:2 you’d want 66g by weight in your cup. Weight is far more accurate than volume in ml. Using volume you have to guess a bit because Crema doesn’t weigh much. So if using a coffee which produces a lot the volume could be more than 70ml including crema.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage ah, do they sell espresso cups that are slightly larger than a 2oz?
@@MichaelGreco Hey Michael, Here's a link to our espresso cup collection. There are some 2.3 and 3oz cups there: www.wholelattelove.com/collections/cups-and-saucers?_=pf&pf_pt_cup_style=Espresso%20Cup
My favorite for your application are the 3oz NotNeutral glasses and the Fellow Monty 3oz Demitasse Cup Set .
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I just purchased a slim tray to fit in the Gaggia Classic pro so I can fit a scale. I'll give it a try
Can anybody point me to some source explaining the difference between manipulation of flow and manipulation of pressure? For instance, in this particular case, if one had used a manual lever machine (with pressure gauge) and had chosen to begin the extraction at very low pressure, in what dimensions of flavour should we expect the result to be different to an extraction with low initial flow?
What I mean is that I can "picture" in my mind the effect of grinding, the effect of tampering, the effect of pressure (the higher the pressure the "deeper" the extraction of substances from inside the cells) but I cannot figure in my mind the difference, in taste, between pressure effect and flow effect. A slow flow should simply extract slowly, a fast flow, if too fast, should simply dilute the coffee with water. It's pressure which breaks the cell membranes and extract substances, not "flow".
Getting in depth into flow control would be helpful. I’m confused if how much controlling the amount of water coming out of the group head is affecting pressure. I remember from high school physics the Venturi effect. When you constrict a path for fluids it creates an area of high speed low pressure”why a plane flys” is this valve doing that. Sorry to be so in the weeds nerdy. Just trying to understand.
Hi M, I love nerdy! The flow control device is a relatively long distance from the coffee puck. Any speed increase dissipates rapidly. By the time water reaches the coffee it can be a gentle trickle. Good demo of that in this video where I measure flow rates at various valve positions: ruclips.net/video/P1Vz7aa_KtI/видео.html
Marc
Hi Mark,
I recently read a paper "Systematically Improving Espresso: Insights
from Mathematical Modeling and Experiment", which suggests to coarse the grind setting, reduce input to 15g and brew time to 15s and still a really good 40g shot.
Would try this new recipe and give some comments comparing current parameters vs this science-suggested recipe?
Thanks!
Hi neville, I've been asked about the article many times. I need to have a go at comparing but honestly I'm rather skeptical. Here's the comment I've given numerous times with my thoughts...
Better Shots? What I read is the beverage was more consistent in flavor shot to shot. Easier to get the same flavor, but was that flavor good? I've had plenty of shots with grind too coarse and lower coffee dose and they are weak, sour, lacking body - under-extracted. From the Science Daily article: "Though there are clear strategies to reduce waste and improve reproducibility, there is no obvious optimal espresso point," says Hendon. "There is a tremendous dependency on the preferences of the person producing the coffee; we are elucidating the variables that they need to consider if they want to better navigate the parameter space of brewing espresso."
The article had some focus on "sustainability benefits". IDK... I like a good 12oz steak. If I and everyone else starts eating 8oz steaks that's more sustainable too. Just don't know if I'm going to be satisfied and makes no difference if all my 8oz steaks tasted the same. I don't want them to. I like it when I run into a 12oz steak with exceptional flavor based on comparison to some other really good ones. All very good steaks, but one stood out like a god shot!
Honestly sounds like they're making short coffee shots and not what most would consider espresso. More consistent flavor? That might be easier with a coarser grind due to lower flow variable affects. And, maybe it's a flavor that works for some. We have a lot of former (and some current) baristas on staff here. When a new one comes on board I always ask them what percentage of their customers even know there's espresso in the latte they ordered. The answer is usually in the 20-30% range. That number goes up if they came from a specialty cafe or micro-roaster. IDK maybe weaker, consistent "espresso" works for the Starbucks crowd? Not for me. If anything I'm going the opposite direction more coffee and sticking with the finer grind. I've been on a triple shot kick for a few weeks and loving the deep, rich, straight shots with lots of body!
Marc
Hey guys I am going to create a coffee bar in the near future. Right now I have a Breville barista express. This machine has served me well making on average 4 milk based drinks a day for 3 years. I currently have my water running through a softener then and RO system. As I fill the tank with RO water I add drips of minerals back in. I have a couple questions?
1. If I plumb in water line will the inline filters that use ion exchange still work if the water has been through and RO system. Not sure if those filters rely on calcium being present in the water to complete the exchange of minerals
2. I have narrowed it down to Prof Pro 700 and Bez duo. I like the volumetric on the Bez, but really like the organization of internals on Prof. What is the difference in group heads when it come to maintenance and temp stability. Also which machine in your opinion will is better in terms of reliability and taste in th cup?
Thank you
Hi M, Thanks for the questions.
1. If referring to a BWT Bestmax Premium inline ion-exchange filter I would not connect that directly to the output of an RO system. You can use an inline BWT BestMin cartridge to remineralize RO water: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-bestmin-premium-m-filter-cartridge Perhaps your situation is similar to the one in this customer comment on the Bestmin page linked above: "Well water with 25 grain hardness is softened leaving 450 ppm NaCl which is removed by RO. RO water is treated through this unit yielding TDS of about 90 making great coffee with an ECM double boiler machine. Highly recommended."
2. The Pro 700 and Bezzara Duo DE are both nice machines. The Duo uses Bezzera's BZ group which is electrically heated and temp controlled using PID. The Pro 700 uses an E61 group with thermosiphon for heating. The electric heating of the BZ group helps to warm up the machine faster. Both provide accurate brew temps and if warmup time is concern you can power the Pro 700 through properly sized smart plug for automatic turn on so it's ready to go when you are. The Pro 700 is a lot less complex internally than the Duo. Long term it's the more reliable machine IMHO. For about the same price as the Duo you can get a Pro 700 with Flow Control on the E61 group which opens up a world of possibilities. Here's a link to a side by side spec comparison with current pricing for both machines: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/compare?products=MTU0NjAwNDEzNTk5NSwyMDM4MTQ2NzI3OTkw
Hope that helps!
Marc
Whole Latte Love your awesome thanks Marc!
In the comments to another video on youtube a person said he found the flow control tricky to handle, said it reacted very slow. Looking at your video it seems super easy (even though finding a good profile for different coffees of course is difficult) and the flow seems to adjust immediately. Is it this easy? Could he be chasing a certain preasure instead of focusing on flow rate?
Hi s, Thanks for the question. Sure sounds like someone is chasing pressures. While that can be done IMO it's not the best way to approach using flow control. In most cases I give very little regard to pressure reading. Depends on what type of profile you are using but in my experience and in research there's little difference in extraction quality in brew pressures ranging from ~6-10 bar. That's a simplification to some extent which does not consider edge use cases. IMO and that of the coffee pros I work with around the world flow rate which determines brew water contact time with coffee is far more important than brew pressure and a much easier variable to work with.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hi! A follow up question here. When profiling by using flow rate is that in a way relative to your machines flow rate? What I mean is the machines you have with rotary pump have a flow rate of about 11 ml/s, the ones with vibration pump about 8 ml/s, there are also machines with about 5,5 ml/s, still I guess all machines have about the same flow rate through the coffee when having 9 bar. Will this mean that when profiling your espresso the flow rate will be relative what machine you are using. 50% in one machine is totally different from another. Hope you understand what I mean! :)
Lastly I’ve seen that the first drip of my espresso is going too quickly, as soon as I let the water flow the espresso will start flowing too, some help?
Grind finer
Whole Latte Love but then it slows the down, so start pretty fast and it ends really slow, I don’t understand how to fix that
Hi Marc, awesome video, I am thinking of getting the flow control device for my Profitec 700. Would you say the pre-infusion without the flow control device is kind of useless in the Profitec 700? I have tried doing pre-infusion but it is not turning out great for me, as soon as I see the first drops, I put the lever up but the shot comes really fast and makes a mess.
Hi Mario, Thanks for the comment and question. Flow control opens up a new world of possibilities for sure. I do not believe pre-infusion is useless without the flow control. It's just not as controllable. On a plumbed in Pro 700 one can do a long low flow/pressure pre-infusion and tune the pre-infusion with a pressure regulator on the plumbed in connection. That will definitely help take the brightness bite out of very fresh from roast single origin coffee. If your shot is coming too fast after a pre-infusion that's typically an indication grind needs to be finer. Might try dialing in your grind with no pre-infusion and then use that grind size when you do pre-infusion. But, there is no doubt controlling the flow rate gives one more possibilities.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Ill give it a try, thanks for the comments!
Obviously the FC produces a great shot for fresh roast. Obviously for tinkerers. I wonder if it’s too much hassle for average user who just want a decent coffee each day without over thinking it? Keep the videos coming!
Hi squib, Thanks for the comment - we will keep the vids coming! FC does helps a lot with the fresh roast! A bunch of other uses as well. I've touched on some in other videos but will go more in-depth down the road. I'll tease a couple... Hitting a not so fresh coffee with high flow at the start and then decreasing the flow as the shot progresses to avoid pulling stale flavors. Mimic shots pulled on manual lever and other machine types, pressure profiling via the group gauge, using filter/drip grind size and reducing flow rate for long coffee/coffee shots.
Marc
Hey! Love the videos, I have the ECM slim with flow control from you guys, just got it. and i'm having mega issues having the drip come out way too fast. My beans were Pre-ground for espresso. What size did you use for this video? Or machine and machine settings? My coffee is coming out about 3x as fast and SUPER watery.
Hi Tristan, Thanks a whole latte for the love and your patronage! Your problem is the pre-ground. There's no specific grind size that works universally for espresso. Grind size must be dialed in to match your own espresso extraction variables. Very small changes in grind size can make a huge difference in extraction timing. A grind size which works well in one machine will almost always need adjustment if it's used on another. Grind size is not set and forget. As variables change like the coffee you are using, coffee's age from roast, coffee dose weight in your portafilter, brew temp, etc your grind size will need adjustment. For that reason very few people (like near zero) using prosumer level machines like yours use pre-ground coffee. Grinding fresh right before brewing will exponentially increase youir espresso quality. Here's a video on how to dial in grind size: ruclips.net/video/jOY7D02n4Cw/видео.html What need is a quality espresso oriented flat burr grinder. One that can grind directly into your portafilter. The Mignon Facile is a bare bones lower cost grinder which has those qualities: www.wholelattelove.com/products/eureka-mignon-facile-espresso-grinder
So what can you do with the pre-ground you have? Increasing the dose weight in your portafilter will slow down the extraction if you can fit more. Tamping harder might help a little too. Also be sure your flow control is set properly. Turn it 1.25 turns open from the closed no flow position. That gets you the stock flow rate of the machine without flow control and that's where you want to be when first dialing in or working with a new coffee. If you're already set there I don't think increasing the dose weight or tamping pressure will be enough to correct for shots coming 3x too fast. I hope that helps!
Marc
what is the scale that goes with an app?
Hi JK, Thanks for the question. Here's the Acaia Lunar scale used in the video: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-lunar-espresso-scale
Marc
Is this the same principal as how the new GS3 MP works?
Hi f, Yes it is similar - but far more affordable than GS3.
Marc
i would love to hear your thoughts/experience on profiling (and any specific starting points) for milk-based drinks, which are typically my go-to. while there is great joy in experimenting with the paddle for straight-up shots, i have experienced an issue whereby a standard 1:2 brew ratio (which worked wonderfully on my older/way cheaper Breville, same beans and same dose) no longer "cuts" through the milk, resulting in a weak milky drink. a ~1:1 ristretto with paddle full open gave me much better results, but i feel like i have yet to maximise the potential of the beans. what are your thoughts on flow profiling/recipes for milk drinks? cheers.
Hi Shing, Thanks for an interesting question. I have not done profiling in an attempt to get more coffee flavor through the milk. I honestly am not a big milk-based drink drinker unless it's a cortado, flat white or random wet cappuccino. I dislike gulping straight milk. I want the espresso to be featured so my milk drinks tend to be a 1:2 or lower espresso to milk ratio. If using flow control on espresso for those I'd do what I think is best for the espresso without much thought to the milk. So taming brightness in very fresh from roast coffee with long low flow pre-infusion to first drip at ~15 seconds then increase to a medium flow rate. Or hitting bean blends or older coffee with high flow to start then a linear ramping off of flow/pressure to avoid bitter or stale flavors. I will say that with some coffees like bolder Italian style blends I'm okay with them go long as the bitterness gets tamed a bit by the milk and helps the espresso cut through.
Marc
Brought out the big guns today. I'm drooling at the equipment and the shots. That's a setup goal. 😛
Hi tp01, Thanks for the comment! Yes we did - I love this stuff.
Marc
Hey Marc! just got my ECM with flow control- to make it fully open how far do you have to turn the knob? I assume it can't ever be too much flow?
Hi Jonathan, Congrats on your new machine! Which ECM did you get? You must watch one of my more recent videos on flow control. You can have too much flow! Never run with the flow control wide open. Stock flow rate without flow control is ~11g/s on rotary pump machines and ~8g/s on vibration pump machines. Open your flow control all the way and you'll get close to 30g/s on a rotary machine. Here's a live stream (it's long) I did a couple of weeks ago on flow control. It goes through the calibration procedure so you know how to set for a stock flow rate then goes into some ways to use flow: ruclips.net/video/BkwP3JYrk-A/видео.html. Starting this Thursday, April 30 I'll be doing a series of live streams over a couple of weeks featuring different flow profiles. This week's is a profile for working with very fresh from roast high-altitude specialty coffee.
Marc
Next level video Marc - YOU DA MAN!
Hi Waxifari, Thanks a "whole latte" for the comment - YOU DA MAN too!
Marc
Great Video! :) Do you think ECM will start integrating the Flow Control device as standard? Or will it be an after market product in the future?
Hi Martin, Thanks for the comment and question. As mentioned we currently have the flow control available out of the box on ECM Classika and Synchronika. Also available with Profitec Pro 500, 600 and 700. All machines are available without the FCD as well. We do hope to have upgrade kits back in stock soon for use on other machines. Can be installed on just about any existing E61 group machine. Currently demand for those is outpacing supply.
Marc
Why is normal flow first shot below 8 bars?
Hi CM, When using flow rate as the controlling variable we are not overly concerned with brew pressures.
Marc
You guys definitely know what you are talking about. Rare but really welcomed skill here on RUclips, you usually only see in creepy forums. Thumbs up’ed 👍 and subscribed immediately 😍
Pretty decent video setup too.
Hi Sam, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I would have wasted so much more time on my espresso journey without people like you.
you guys are awesome! thank you
Hi t, Thanks for the comment you are welcome!
Marc
Is the 9 bar rule no longer a rule with FC? Your second shot barely passed 6 bar
Hi CM, When using flow we are not overly concerned with brew pressure. There's some good research showing little difference in extraction yields at brew pressures ranging from 6-9 bar. There is a big difference in flavors extracted based on the flow rate.
Marc
i love espresso. i want better espresso at home. i use flair signature pro with pressure gauge. this flow control lesson will very usefull for me. thank you for the lesson. i subscribe 👍
Hi ferri, You are welcome for the lesson and thank you for subscribing! I've used the Flair Pro in the past a few times nice little unit.
Marc
Can you feature some items that are good but not so expensive!! Scales, levelers etc. I mean $100-&200 are way over many budgets. There has to be good items that are not so expensive for home use.
Hi O, Thanks for the request. I have done a number of videos on lower cost upgrades like precision filter baskets, shower screens, group gaskets, etc.
Marc
This is nice that you are drinking from the one cup =)
кто знает, может, это такая прелюдия
Hi, Todd and I are very good friends!
Marc
lol, prelude to what?
Marc
Hi, I like this video and the setup a lot, especially the before/after and the approach with scales etc. However there are two things that I don't understand, maybe you can help me out here:
1) in the first shot, to me it looks like you have really massive channeling, right at the start of the shot, which is .. well, very bad. I would assume that the extraction is pretty uneven, and that you would taste this. You mention channeling briefly, but like as an aside. If this were in the last third of the shot, I would be less concerned. But here, you almost have spurts to the side. That's really bad. And I would assume that this is either due to bad prep (grind distribution / tamping etc), or not the grind is already too fine. Are you sure this is not due to "leveling only", and lack of tamping?
2) you do a slow, long pre-infusion, then you go up to 6 bars of pressure. I would be curious to know why you did not go higher than that (classic 8-9 bars) - is there a reason?
Don't get me wrong - I like the setup and I think the video is great!
Hi j, Thanks for the comment and questions. It's been a long time since I did the video so not certain on #1. It's entirely possible there was channeling. With proper leveling I get more consistent shots than with tamping alone. IMO hard tamping is over rated. You can only compress coffee so much. Also I tend to grind finer. On #2... Long slow pre-infusions and lower flow rate extractions are a common way of taming the brightness in fresh from roast specialty coffees. I'm not very concerned with the brew pressure. It's more about the flow rate of water through the coffee. Flow and pressure are related but not one in the same. There's some good research showing little difference in extraction of solids in brew pressures ranging from 6-9bar.
Marc
I think I gonna build mine back. I really think it's just not worth it for me at least. I mean I have a nice preinfusion by default from my Mara X and I only drink dark roast, no fancy "single origin 100% arabica washed Ethiopian" .
It's just not for me. It's expensive, it's a little struggle to get into, you could break something easily if not mindful while installing.
So with that being said....
Does anybody want to buy a Flow profile Kit with a paddle for a Mara X ? 😂
interesting... the flow control shot looked very noticeably what looks likes better shot
I guess this is why Oracle has about 21 gram dose and a simple 2-step flow control
Hi Mark, Could be... Aussies go big!
Marc
Whole Latte Love yeah, I see their favorite is the latte - but since new the puck touches the screen?
Great video team. Love the content. If 7 days for this particular coffee, is considered fresh from roast and therefore needs slower preinfusion to mitigate the potential, unwelcome acidity. Then at what age would the coffee be considered "rested", and therefore suitable for a standard espresso recipe pulled at 9bar/30 seconds (or thereabouts)?
Hi Sam, Great question! Unfortunately I don't have a great answer for you. It depends on some variables like how coffee was stored etc. Would likely be very different at 2 weeks. Prior to making this video I worked with the coffee at 2, 3 and 4 days from roast. One aspect that changed daily was grind size. Every day a little finer as the coffee aged.
Marc
Yes ❤️🇧🇬
Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Without tamping no great shot
Thanks for the comment. Consider this... Grind can only be compressed so much. Then further compression has no impact other than sore arm. I can use a capable leveler and compress the grind enough a dry puck can be knocked out in a single piece. In my experience compressing further - tamping with more force has no affect on an extraction.
Dirty tools, no tamping, the grind size not changed before using the flow control, the pressure under 9bar, bad extraction.
Hey aA, thanks for adding your opinion. When using flow I pay very little attention to brew pressure. Lots of research showing very little difference in extractions in a range of 6-9bar. Changing the flow rate which actually removes solids from the coffee has a much greater impact. Also give leveling a try! Much easier and far more consistent IMO. The leveling does compress the coffee with the tool I was using.
Cheers,
Marc
Puck prep is poor
okay
What about the Coronavirus Guys, What are you Thinking🤪🤪👎
Drinking out of the Same container,?? Is there No COVID-19 over There OMG🤪🤪
Hi Roger, Well, This video was shot end of January 2020. Prior to any cases reported in the US.
Marc
Sorry Guys I don’t wish to offend, I just thought it looked Funny😂😂😂👍. Just to let you know I recently purchased a New ECM Classika along with a OCD Distribution Tool, I have been watching your Videos on RUclips have been taking your Advice on board, Thanks again guys I think you are doing a Top Job, especially the way the World is Travelling these days. Cheers from Roger in Sydney Australia.👍👍👌
Oops forgot to mention, Also purchased the ECM 64 Manuale Grinder, Hope I have made the right Choice, Cheers🍻