The easiest way to have happy employees is to treat them with the same respect you want them to treat you with. Pay them well and show respect and your team, no matter what you make, will succeed. It’s simple, but so rare.
Not 9nly employees, but people in general. Treat everyone like a human being, no matter their position/status, and you will have allies when you need one.
Being valued can actually be worth more than money. I've worked a dodgy sales job that made significantly more than my current job working tech support for a medical company. The joy of being told that you're making a suffering persons life better and that they're glad they got you on the phone is worth the smaller paycheck to me. the fact that Thors appreciation comes with a bigger cut is just the cherry on top.
@Victoriens not correct, but okay, pal. Capitalism rewards businesses reinvesting into their business to make more profits. He intentionally keeps the business small so therefore less expansion to bring on additional developers and he himself takes a pay cut compared to other business owners I the industry due to his principles so therefore that wealth also gets funneled back into the employees. If a CEO chooses to take additional cut of the company via stock or raw salary, capitalism isn't further benefiting him unless he puts that back into people to epxnae additional jobs, salaries, etc. Greed exists in all economic functions and capitalism is the only current system that's proved to work as all others have failed thus far.
Seems it is three people, so it's not like when you just got there people coming together that such shares are unusual. Won't be that easy anymoer when you got 500 people with VERY differnt jobs.
@@taahasiddiqui1071 No, you just completely misunderstood the numbers. They gain 25% of the 100%. Otherwise Thor is gaining 50%, the other two get 12.5% each, leaving 25% SOMEWHERE that isn’t in anyone’s pockets.
@@taahasiddiqui1071 the first step is slicing the cake in half and one half goes to pirate software and then the other half gets split between art and music.. tell me how that's 12.5%
It crumbles quickly with more people you add as not everyone will be able to have a book dedicated about their work so they'll make less in total, or work more/fewer hours and it's unfair for those who work more on even more important things to get an even division of the profits, etc, it can still be fair but it's a lot more complex than raw numbers with zero extra thought beyond "take it you earned it", this is a good thing but it's definitely not applicable to teams above 5 people realistically
That "no, you'll get 25%" is not only an awesome thing to do, but it feels awesome to do it. I blew an artists mind a convenention once in similar fashion. The slow transition of facial expressions from "oh damn, this dude is gonna low ball me" to "that's 3 times what I was asking" will never be forgotten.
Honestly your artist and musicians probably do their best work when they know that they're getting compensated. They get to see the fruits of their labor. As the head of the studio, you get the best quality work out of your employees. I see this as an absolute win
Not sure about that. 100% ost is a good idea though, that should be enough to motivate the artist. 25% is crazy high, and can only work for a very small non gameplay focused game.
@@stt.9433 I mean, how many People will buy that OST ? Again, its 25 % so around 2,5 Bucks from each Sale. You can have good weeks and bad weeks, it´s a nice side income but nothing where you can live off and do nothing.
Ah, you beat me to it! CGP Grey covered what pirate quartermasters did, and yeah that's how they did it. They even did compensations for workplace injuries.
it's pretty sad when the "bloodthirsty thieving pirates" have more integrity, moral fiber, and basic humanity than the "upstanding legitimate businessman" 😕
@@calebmitchell9060The "Upstanding legitimate businessmen" you talk about have been involved in horrific crimes too for basically as long as businesses have existed like just look at Nestle and their alledged drug trafficking or how they keep slavery alive because thats how they make money. I suppose that at a certain point a companies enviorment corrodes the initial integrity if you had any when you first joined and promotes less than ethical ways of making money. Plus the fact that some of these conglomerates are simply so large that eventually there's always gonna be rotten apples in their ranks.
It's always so nice when people who worked in a shitty industry try to create an enviornment that's less shitty instead of tring to be the dickhead who profits off the shittiness. It can of course still always go awry and there will be grifters, but it's great to see that there are people in all kinds of industries that believe that we have the capability to make the world a nicer place and try to move towards that.
We don’t just need more game devs like Thor we need more businesspeople like him as well. Building something sustainable that values the workers and what they put into a product and still being able to make good money. If more business were like Thor I think the world at large would be a far nicer place.
@@uncleandy7983but by reinvesting in those employees they’re more likely to stay motivated, and with the company, for longer and provide even better product 😊
@@uncleandy7983 He already is reinvesting into better hardware and software and just growing bigger is not necessarily the way to success in game development. There are not exactly many ways to reinvest besides advertisements either
I think part of the problem is that we've forgotten the purpose of a business. Several years ago I was in management and went to a company thing. I'm listening to this woman speak on the first morning and she asks what the purpose of a business is.. and the answer she gave was about making money. That was her idea of a purpose for a business. I disagreed. The purpose of a business is to provide a product or service. Under capitalism, a good business will also make a profit from providing that product or service. Late stage capitalism forgets what capitalism is supposed to be and twists itself into this shit hole we find ourselves in.
I have worked in the restaurant infustry for 15 years. For 12 of them, I was never treated well by management. They never once thanked me for working harder or doing a good job, never once asked if I needed help, and I never once saw any of them bus a table or wash a dish. I always vowed that if I were in charge, I would do things differently. After 3 years of owning my own restaurant/bar, half of my staff has our logo tattooed on them. Idk if I need to say more than that. ♡
Is he paying this _on top_ of a salary? If yes, then no way that should be the basic model. He's generously overpaying them. If not then it's fair, but still not suitable for a basic model. Most people want a steady income and don't want to risk making nothing if the game flops.
How does this model make any sense? LIke... come work for me for 3 years while we work on this game, but you get 25% of nothing because the game isn't making money yet (and might never if it's a flop)???
@@Ironically-Sarcastic In the first second of the video he says "of the money that comes from Steam" He's talking about profits for sales of the game. Obviously, if people are doing work on the game they should get paid for their work on the game but they should ALSO be paid for how well that game does.
People who create are happy to just be comfortable and allowed to create. Those who take are never satisfied by what they take. Thor is a creator first, so he's satisfied with enough to live on and to continue to create. All of the big AAA publishers are takers, they can take millions and ask why can't they can't have billions.
Nah, this is overpaying big time. A way to be extremely generous but still be fair to yourself would be to give both 20%, yourself 80%, and then reverse those numbers for the art book and OST
As an artist I almost cried watching this. Shows businesses can be profitable, and pay people, others just choose to fuck over those helping the most. I respect you a ton for this.
Hell yeah man, this is awesome. I have a similar deal with one of the devs that I work with (though I don’t get a percentage of sales). That said, I get to keep 100% of the streaming and music sales on all platforms with the exception of Steam since the dev basically acts as the publisher there, but is still get a hefty percentage (90% on one game, 75% on another). Plus he’s just a great guy to work with. Huge respect to you for this pay structure and keeping your composers and artists happy!
Depending on how much he makes, since he's taking the largest part of the pie he is likely paying the most taxes. the writeoff could knock him down a tax level, which is always nice@@wokeupinapanic
@@CleepIsMe No, I'm talking about business. Consumers don't even get a tax break for purchasing software. It has to be for business use. And the "tax break" for purchasing software, or honestly ANYTHING, is negligible. People always talk about "tax write offs" with zero understanding of them. They are not "write offs" or even really "breaks". They barely contribute. They're only even useful when you're buying something for 1,000+ employees. For someone like Thor it makes no difference if he logs it or the artist logs it in their taxes. The result will still be like $2 difference in either of their taxes.
I am a professional musician for 15 years already, I’ve been playing with independent artists, cruise ships, jazz festivals and stuff. This video really made me proud.
When you don't try to take every penny, people will want to help working with you. It's not about getting the best deals you can now, it's about setting yourself up for the best deals later by taking care of everyone and doing the right thing. I guarantee he's going to do some even larger things in the future compared to what he's already done now, or he will always be able to find people to work with him because of how well he treats people. Integrity is a very powerful thing, and he has it.
This is actually very kind of you Thor, I would be proud to work with you actually, I think you're probably one of the best people on this planet. Not even exaggerating here, in terms of projects, you would probably be one of the best people to work with.
I have been following Thor for a while now and he might be the most wholesome human being on the planet. If everybody was like him the world would be paradise.
Christ, I've never even followed this guy, but seen many, MANY clips of him in various forms, and every video just makes me like and respect the dude more than the last time!
FWIW, this split makes sense for a game made by 3 people. They get royalties for the lifetime of sales and retain rights to the major contribution they made (ip, programming, design, visual art, music). That idea breaks down when you have a larger team-you can't give 25% to 100+ artists and 25% to the 1-3 composers that might work on a game. That makes for an illogical split. However, you CAN portion a percentage per major pillar. Like 30% visual arts, 10% sound design, 10% music, 50% game design and programming. But if you want to give everyone on a large team royalties this way, you end up having to weigh the value of each individual contribution. If the composer only works on the game for 3 months, should they get a much larger (individual) share than the artists who were there the whole time? Probably not. But the music is not a small contribution, so maybe it should be a little bigger? It's hard to say at the beginning of a project. That's why a simple contract like this sounds really nice, but isn't manageable when the scale of a project expands beyond a single digit team size. Edit: if you read this far and care for more, check the replies for my thoughts on how I'd structure a fair royalties contract with a bigger team.
This requires more thought and consideration, but if i was going to build a contract for a larger project team, on gut feeling, i might do something like this: 30-50%*** of total net revenue from the project is allocated for royalties. Each contributing team member gets a percentage of those royalties relative to their time spent on the project. The granularity of time tracking should be relatively coarse, because I wouldn't want people wasting mental effort tracking 15 min breaks. Per day or even per week would work. Additionally, the studio retains overall IP rights, but in the case of secondary products (art books, soundtrack albums, etc) 80% of net revenues are allocated to the contributing team members on those products. 20% is kept for the studio, just to ensure there is some incentive to actually bother producing those secondary merch items. I think this split, while not perfect, strikes an acceptable balance between benefit to the studio and fair compensation to the team. While avoiding over valuing any one pillar of the project. Each team member just gets a compensation for how much time they committed. *** 30% in the case where team members are being paid a salary or wage. 50% if the budget for the project can't afford immediate compensations.
@@Wanooknox I like the concept for this. But I've got issues with some fundamentals in who gets what and why. I'm a very strong advocate for worker's rights. I just want that to be out in the open. That said I do believe strongly in the old adage of "fair pay for fair work". But we've gotten a bit further since people actually said those things in a meaningful way. And the part where you say that people will be payed based on X amount of time spent on the project is to me a surefire way to kill this idea before it can take root. A worker should always have a baseline income guaranteed from the employer. This baseline income should be enough to live in adequate comfort and safety. That is the bare minimum otherwise you're going to get people that won't work or not take the job seriously enough. Now that said. After the base pay that should not be "minimum wage" is established. I do believe that in sectors like this where there is a lot of creative working and on-project based work. Whatever revenue generated like Thor showcased is a good baseline for bonus income. Meaning it's more likely to generate a desire to work and keep working since they're getting something extra. What I also like from Thor is that he essentially makes a budget with an already built-in pool of funds for any software or potential hardware need the artists and designers would or could need. Having multiple piles of money in order to fund future costs is a good pro-active decision to lower unnecessary spending and unwanted straining on the budget as a whole.
Obviously this changes at scale, but a team of 100 is making a significantly different product than a team of 3. A team of 3 make and indie game that *hopefully* reaches an audience of thousands. A team of 100 people made Call of Duty 4, a game that made over $715 million. I can really only think of one indie team getting that level of AAA style popularity, and that would be Mojang with Minecraft, who had a very small team even when Microsoft finally purchased them.
@@Kaiquintos I'm absolutely on board with fair wages. The skills necessary to make games, regardless of department, are complex to learn and warrant good compensation. When I mentioned the compensation thing at the end, I was thinking of a really small team like Thor's. I've made games with friends in the past, where we are all contributing outside of regular daily work, without compensation. This wasn't a day job arrangement and we didn't have a "budget" per-se. It was a for-fun project. But in the case of a real proper studio with funding, employees should be getting proper salaries and benefits, of course. Perhaps I cast too wide of a net when I was thinking about this earlier today 😅.
@@Wanooknox haha no sweat my dude, I am no game dev or business owner. I'm just someone that strongly believes in that one should not have to work excessively for barrel scraps. Anyway I do agree that you that this is definitely worth figuring out because there's just so many larger corporations that just exploit their hard working teams. And I do understand that regardless of what industry, a company wants to make money first and foremost. I just believe it can be done without the unnecessary soul crushing and exploitation of the workforce. And I agree with you that what Thor showcased is most suited for small scale jobs. I do it has potential for a much larger group. Even if said group consists of multiple studios and several hundreds of people. However I am not going to be the one figuring that one out so I'll leave that to the much smarter folks 😅
honestly, the way thor manages bussiness in the videogame industry, makes me think he would be the ideal succesor of gabe newell, a new head of steam, that won't make it public and protect it from other greedy companies and investors
I love that people complain about the wages and working conditions and then go out and hire their own team one day and do the exact same bad things to them but Thor would rather be part of the solution and not be greedy when the only thing stopping him from doing so is himself.Massive respect to you and anyone that does anything like this in any industry.
That's... really smart. Ensures you'll keep your art consistent. That your artists will thrive. And... like, people may not comment on how vital the music is to the experience, but then you play a demo that doesn't have it and it just feels wrong and not in a "this is leading to something" way creepy horror vibes go. Just... "did I fuck up the settings?" wrong.
Sometimes I also do this on a much smaller scale when buying stuff at the local markets from vendors who handmake or grow their goods themselves. I'll ask what their price is for an item or number of items, then hand them 50% - 100% more than they quoted and tell 'em to keep the full amount since I want to support their entrepreneurial venture and see them thrive! It makes me feel good and every now and then it brings them to tears which always ends up being a wholesome moment for us all 💯😁🤙🏼
So glad to see an owner taking care of his employees. Remember, as a worker, you are selling your services to a company. They are depending on you. Whit that said, you are worth more to the company than you think. And a great leader can see that.
Thor is what corporations should have been: A way to get a bunch of people to all pitch in and succeed while loving what they do. They don't have the financial pressure of "if I leave this job, I stop having healthcare" because they're still getting checks based off of sales. I aspire to be able to build something as great as Thor's structure
It only really works in the small scale like what hes got since as costs add up devs make up the bulk of costs from pay checks to hardware/software easily dwarfing the art and music team by alot so to shave off 50% of sales from the game to such a small portion of the team is crazy and will in turn make the devs feel shittier but since hes the primary coder on this project it works since any other coder was more of assistance rather then full time work so it makes sense they got a smaller cut while the music and art people did a lot more then those assistants to thor since they handled stuff thor couldn't do himself.
@@Notaforumguy007 The point Thor is making is not to make it as if every game dev needs to splits everything evenly... But more about being fair. The reason AAA companies are in such a terrible condition right now is because all the money being made goes into the investors and higher ups, something he experienced first-hand after being paid under minimum wage when he worked at Blizzard. Game devs in general are being treated like garbage compared to any other creative line of work and he wants to change that. He only needs to make enough money to make a game he wants, while managing the rest of the income to the rest of his team.
As a musician and composer, I have yo say that is so honorable of you. Musicians' skills, experience and work is so undervalued in our country it makes most of us give up and turn it into a hobby instead of our profession.
This is genius. By making the game dirt cheap and releasing it into early access alongside monetizing the development directly, he gets to appear extremely generous. He makes it seem like he's giving away half of his profits when in reality, the sale of the game is only a small fraction of his income.
Is it not generous though? I understand that he gets some money from the publicity the games generate because of streams, but he not only paid them more than they asked for, but continues to pay and support them for their previous contribution to his IP, and the publicity he gets supports them too, as more people then buy the game. Without the successful game, the music and art wouldn't be bought in nearly the same capacity, and so far the revenue from the game alone, not including OST and art sales, would net both the artist and musician $175k (gross revenue being $700k so far). As for the rest of his income, it would either come from games he made (in which, according to this, he pays them the same as in this case), or the long streams he does, in which case I'd say the money is fairly deserved. It's genius in that it's a win situation for everyone, but I'd say that at the very worst, if he's not generous, then he's fair, and he still deserves the praise he gets because of the other content he posts.
I am musician myself. If i would have such a negotiation, that i want less but company give me more, this is really something. I lot of people unfortunately undervalue music for any kind of industry. Really happy for you treating sound design person with respect. My appreciation for your mind set💪💪💪 Hope more companies could treat their employees like you!!!
The thing that large bussinesses can never understand is that kindness, humanity, passion and community will carry a game further than any amount of marketing and budget ever will. Stardew Valley is one of the best examples, where the game is made with love and the dev has gone on record saying "I will never charge for DLC or updates and feel free to quote me if I ever go back on that". Thor understands this and above all: he understands that the success of a game should not be paid with the blood sweat and tears of the devs. If you offer a fair pay and ask a fair and affordable price, people WILL come to you!
His team is 3 people you can’t scale this model to a team of thousands. His game will also never be profitable he has been working on it for probably 10 years at this point and will sell very few copies because that’s indie game market.
If i got this treatment and the company fell on hard times i would work with cut or no pay and do everything i can to help get us out of that situation. This kind of treatment might not make you max amount 😊of money short term but it will show in your product and your staff will actually be loyal.
seeing JP actually makes me nostalgically happy. I used to watch SC2 tournaments in 2011-2013 and JP was a caster. Damn, JP. You've been holding out on me.
This is the one example of a fair pay structure I have ever heard of in any industry. This sounds like the most balanced way to deal with a complex problem in creative endeavors.
"weather it in house or otherwise" Thats a very important distinction and that is super big of him. Letting them use the tools he provides to create anything weather its for the company or something on their own.
I only knew this guy from his youtube short but god he's so wisw intelligent i learned alot from him watching his short pop up randomly i respect this guy he's a leader there's no question about it
I have a game on steam i'm releasing soon, and i also have an artist and a musician. this is what i was planning on doing, down even to the artbook and ost. this is my first time releasing a paid game with a full team under me, and i had no idea what would be appropriate money-wise, so seeing this really helped. thank you!
This is my practice when buying things from people. When I ask to buy something off of them and they say a price less than 60% of what it was actually worth, I’d pay them to at least the 80% mark. This happened the other day with a guitar Amp, I went to go buy it, the dude asked for 30$, the amp brand new was worth 100$, and 60$ used. I paid him 60$ for it even when he didn’t want me to pay that much. It’s a principle I stand by to not screw over people even if I have to throw out politeness to do so. If I want something from you, I want to make sure you walk away from that thinking “I felt good about that” not doubting your decision. If I lose money doing this so be it, my personal principles are above my greed.
People often forget that art and music are 50% of a game, and they're the two hardest things to do in the game too. Programming can be learnt by anyone, but few are blessed with art skills.
That's actually SO RESPECTABLE. We need WAY more people like Thor!! I would 100% do the exact same thing, except I'd probably be the musician in this scenario 😅 Fairness and happiness are way more important to me than greedy profit margins or whatever. I used to grow cannabis back in the day to survive, but i still just practically gave it away to people because i mostly just loved growing, and i loved to spread the happiness and to help out people who had health issues. Im thinking if i should start growing again, but legal cbd strains this time. And maybe even make it into a business.
Many people are have a dream like him, but he's the only that has the finesse to run the business, and the integrity to still be true to himself even if money starts flowing in his pocket. I really hope he grows big and turns out to be another Larian
I am a failed startup founder only had 3 developers with me. But honestly this is the best because they actually come in wanting to give you their best work, it honestly pays for itself.
The way they were a jovial and happily laughing he bewildered them so much they just had to listen and see how much of a goat thor actually is. Can see them processing his genius
This a result of being involved for the artistry and not sheerly turning a massive profit… corporate business has brought our beloved games industry to its knees… the quality, involvement, satisfaction. Buying up small studios and just absorbing the beauty and talent there is in the field… to feed into the meat grinder of meaningless numbers.
If you want good employees, make them believe in the company too, make them want it too. This is how you do that. A seen employee is a HARD WORKING employee. Value them.
Thor seems like an awesome higher up to have. Dudes got a level head. I always question why i work as hard as I do at work and the doubt always comes from whether or not my bosses care or acknowledge my effort or appreciate it. I appreciate that you put in effort to show appreciation.
he's also one of very few big streamers on Twitch who actually pays his mods with actual wage+benefits. Imagine someone like H*san or Asm*n actually treating their mods like an actual employee or human being... They would never.
"I just need 15 percent."
"25. Take it or leave it 🗿"
GOATed.
Leaving it wasn't even an option. He was getting 25% whether he liked it or not.
Bro just said "Fuck you take 25%,"
Chad move🗿
+100% of OST
"ill happily take 15%"
Thor:
"Oooooo sorry man, best i can do... Is 25%"
I wonder why you don't have any replies?
@@GG22nglitch in the matrix
Because no replies are needed, it's perfect as it
wow im so glad he told me what a great guy he is!
Least*
The easiest way to have happy employees is to treat them with the same respect you want them to treat you with. Pay them well and show respect and your team, no matter what you make, will succeed. It’s simple, but so rare.
Not 9nly employees, but people in general. Treat everyone like a human being, no matter their position/status, and you will have allies when you need one.
Because capitalism indirectly punishes generosity by directly rewarding greed.
Being valued can actually be worth more than money.
I've worked a dodgy sales job that made significantly more than my current job working tech support for a medical company.
The joy of being told that you're making a suffering persons life better and that they're glad they got you on the phone is worth the smaller paycheck to me.
the fact that Thors appreciation comes with a bigger cut is just the cherry on top.
@Victoriens not correct, but okay, pal. Capitalism rewards businesses reinvesting into their business to make more profits. He intentionally keeps the business small so therefore less expansion to bring on additional developers and he himself takes a pay cut compared to other business owners I the industry due to his principles so therefore that wealth also gets funneled back into the employees. If a CEO chooses to take additional cut of the company via stock or raw salary, capitalism isn't further benefiting him unless he puts that back into people to epxnae additional jobs, salaries, etc. Greed exists in all economic functions and capitalism is the only current system that's proved to work as all others have failed thus far.
@@Distantdistress Capitalism barely works. The others failed, sure. But I wouldn't say Capitalism is thriving either.
Thor, when starting his own studio:
"This industry deserves a better class of leadership. And I'm gonna give it to 'em."
And draws a box in paint
Don't forget that
Seems it is three people, so it's not like when you just got there people coming together that such shares are unusual.
Won't be that easy anymoer when you got 500 people with VERY differnt jobs.
@miriamweller812 every change in the world starts small. His hope is that this will grow overtime and more people will notice a follow suit
It's easy to do that when there's 3 people working on the game. Less easy when there's 3000 employee.
Good luck scaling
Artist: I'll take 15% if that's ok Mr. Thor...
Thor: You will take 25% and you are gonna like it!
25% of 50% is really 12.5% of the total. People are ignoring that first step of the 50% for some reason.
@@taahasiddiqui1071
No, you just completely misunderstood the numbers. They gain 25% of the 100%. Otherwise Thor is gaining 50%, the other two get 12.5% each, leaving 25% SOMEWHERE that isn’t in anyone’s pockets.
@@taahasiddiqui1071Math is hard, huh?
@@taahasiddiqui1071 the first step is slicing the cake in half and one half goes to pirate software and then the other half gets split between art and music.. tell me how that's 12.5%
That’s my attitude right now, and on ice cream Thursday
Honestly the most normal and actually worker focused business even seen. It can be done
It crumbles quickly with more people you add as not everyone will be able to have a book dedicated about their work so they'll make less in total, or work more/fewer hours and it's unfair for those who work more on even more important things to get an even division of the profits, etc, it can still be fair but it's a lot more complex than raw numbers with zero extra thought beyond "take it you earned it", this is a good thing but it's definitely not applicable to teams above 5 people realistically
thats why walmart etc is evil. small businesses all the way. hard to screw someone when you know their kids names
@@ry8539 Unless they're your kids too.
@@aydentardifI’d be surprised if Thor only has 5 employees. I don’t think he has many, but I doubt it’s a that few.
@mowermen1762 he definitely has more, but most of them are stream mods or help with content creation. This is about his game specifically
That "no, you'll get 25%" is not only an awesome thing to do, but it feels awesome to do it. I blew an artists mind a convenention once in similar fashion. The slow transition of facial expressions from "oh damn, this dude is gonna low ball me" to "that's 3 times what I was asking" will never be forgotten.
This guy out here blowing artists! Nice!
@@thomasj2797he’s what? 😭
"i want 15%"
"25, last offer, take it or leave it"
absolute chad
hey, you aren't going to quickly leave the company that upped your offer by that much without really knowing you
@@rory8182 true
@@rory8182
Incentives. What a weird concept that many business fail to comprehend
proof, or just going with his word?
@@RyAnAiTcH92
"I'm taking his word for it" at 500
Those people will likely never quit, they're being treated like people instead of like a resource.
Thor has no HR department. He doesn't have any human resources! 😤
@@Kio_Kurashi no humans, only goblins
@@miniman72697 *FOR THE GOBLIN LORD!*
@@miniman72697 And you definitely don't want Goblin Resources to get involved.
@@miniman72697and he definitely does have a goblin resources department
Honestly your artist and musicians probably do their best work when they know that they're getting compensated. They get to see the fruits of their labor. As the head of the studio, you get the best quality work out of your employees. I see this as an absolute win
Not sure about that. 100% ost is a good idea though, that should be enough to motivate the artist. 25% is crazy high, and can only work for a very small non gameplay focused game.
@@stt.9433 I mean, how many People will buy that OST ?
Again, its 25 % so around 2,5 Bucks from each Sale. You can have good weeks and bad weeks, it´s a nice side income but nothing where you can live off and do nothing.
We need more people like Thor
1000%
@@HowToMolly yes, people who know what they are talking about when it comes to work and money.
I'll gladly inject thor's spinal serum if that's what it takes.
@@Vhite and people who pay above market to creative people and give them residuals!
@@HowToMolly Stay unhappy lol
Nobody is going to be surprised by this, but his payment strategy is similar to those used by actual pirates.
WAIT YOU’RE RIGHT HOLY SHIT
Ah, you beat me to it! CGP Grey covered what pirate quartermasters did, and yeah that's how they did it. They even did compensations for workplace injuries.
it's pretty sad when the "bloodthirsty thieving pirates" have more integrity, moral fiber, and basic humanity than the "upstanding legitimate businessman" 😕
@@calebmitchell9060 actual terrorists have admitted the system working as intended is far more capable of evil than they could ever hope to be.
@@calebmitchell9060The "Upstanding legitimate businessmen" you talk about have been involved in horrific crimes too for basically as long as businesses have existed like just look at Nestle and their alledged drug trafficking or how they keep slavery alive because thats how they make money. I suppose that at a certain point a companies enviorment corrodes the initial integrity if you had any when you first joined and promotes less than ethical ways of making money. Plus the fact that some of these conglomerates are simply so large that eventually there's always gonna be rotten apples in their ranks.
It's always so nice when people who worked in a shitty industry try to create an enviornment that's less shitty instead of tring to be the dickhead who profits off the shittiness.
It can of course still always go awry and there will be grifters, but it's great to see that there are people in all kinds of industries that believe that we have the capability to make the world a nicer place and try to move towards that.
I wonder how many companies started out like this; only to get too big and fall back to those shitty practices.😓
That's exactly why Sean Murray left EA and formed Hello Games.
It's also why No Man's Sky has been receiving virtually 'endless' support.
We don’t just need more game devs like Thor we need more businesspeople like him as well. Building something sustainable that values the workers and what they put into a product and still being able to make good money. If more business were like Thor I think the world at large would be a far nicer place.
Businesses are more sustainable by reinvestment. He would be better off by putting a larger percentage of that back into the business.
@@uncleandy7983but by reinvesting in those employees they’re more likely to stay motivated, and with the company, for longer and provide even better product 😊
Grifter will find a way to cheat his ways.
@@uncleandy7983 He already is reinvesting into better hardware and software and just growing bigger is not necessarily the way to success in game development. There are not exactly many ways to reinvest besides advertisements either
I think part of the problem is that we've forgotten the purpose of a business. Several years ago I was in management and went to a company thing. I'm listening to this woman speak on the first morning and she asks what the purpose of a business is.. and the answer she gave was about making money. That was her idea of a purpose for a business. I disagreed. The purpose of a business is to provide a product or service. Under capitalism, a good business will also make a profit from providing that product or service.
Late stage capitalism forgets what capitalism is supposed to be and twists itself into this shit hole we find ourselves in.
I have worked in the restaurant infustry for 15 years. For 12 of them, I was never treated well by management. They never once thanked me for working harder or doing a good job, never once asked if I needed help, and I never once saw any of them bus a table or wash a dish. I always vowed that if I were in charge, I would do things differently. After 3 years of owning my own restaurant/bar, half of my staff has our logo tattooed on them. Idk if I need to say more than that. ♡
Hell yeah, brother. You're doing G-d's work. One day at a time.
Well done! We need more people like you.
I'm aspiring to do this as well in a few years (as dev)
I'm hoping they had a choice :P
@@MadsterV 'brand' loyalty 😂
@MadsterV lmao of course. Better story if they didn't though 😈
This is how I envisioned running my own studio. I never got to that stage but you did you're amazing keep being wholesome! You rock!
This should honestly just be the basic model. The fact that it isn't says some terrible things about the industry
Is he paying this _on top_ of a salary? If yes, then no way that should be the basic model. He's generously overpaying them. If not then it's fair, but still not suitable for a basic model. Most people want a steady income and don't want to risk making nothing if the game flops.
How does this model make any sense? LIke... come work for me for 3 years while we work on this game, but you get 25% of nothing because the game isn't making money yet (and might never if it's a flop)???
@@Ironically-Sarcastic In the first second of the video he says "of the money that comes from Steam"
He's talking about profits for sales of the game. Obviously, if people are doing work on the game they should get paid for their work on the game but they should ALSO be paid for how well that game does.
People who create are happy to just be comfortable and allowed to create.
Those who take are never satisfied by what they take.
Thor is a creator first, so he's satisfied with enough to live on and to continue to create.
All of the big AAA publishers are takers, they can take millions and ask why can't they can't have billions.
Nah, this is overpaying big time. A way to be extremely generous but still be fair to yourself would be to give both 20%, yourself 80%, and then reverse those numbers for the art book and OST
As an artist I almost cried watching this. Shows businesses can be profitable, and pay people, others just choose to fuck over those helping the most. I respect you a ton for this.
Thor heard that be the change you wanna see in the world to heart and that super legit
Hell yeah man, this is awesome. I have a similar deal with one of the devs that I work with (though I don’t get a percentage of sales). That said, I get to keep 100% of the streaming and music sales on all platforms with the exception of Steam since the dev basically acts as the publisher there, but is still get a hefty percentage (90% on one game, 75% on another). Plus he’s just a great guy to work with.
Huge respect to you for this pay structure and keeping your composers and artists happy!
look at his current drama
Thor can write the software and hardware off on his taxes which helps.
its a win win
Technically so could the artists, but it honestly works out better this way IMO
Depending on how much he makes, since he's taking the largest part of the pie he is likely paying the most taxes. the writeoff could knock him down a tax level, which is always nice@@wokeupinapanic
Dude the difference an annual software subscription makes in your taxes is like $2 lol. That's not really anything.
@@hrothgarnogarfor a consumer, sure. But for a business, you get way higher tax breaks
@@CleepIsMe No, I'm talking about business. Consumers don't even get a tax break for purchasing software. It has to be for business use. And the "tax break" for purchasing software, or honestly ANYTHING, is negligible. People always talk about "tax write offs" with zero understanding of them. They are not "write offs" or even really "breaks". They barely contribute. They're only even useful when you're buying something for 1,000+ employees. For someone like Thor it makes no difference if he logs it or the artist logs it in their taxes. The result will still be like $2 difference in either of their taxes.
I am a professional musician for 15 years already, I’ve been playing with independent artists, cruise ships, jazz festivals and stuff. This video really made me proud.
This man is a legit legend. Uses the terrible parts of his pass to make good decisions for not only himself but for others.
This guy is just a genuinely likable guy
Like Lenin.
@@potencjalnypracownik2966 Are you salty that he treats his workers well or something?
@@notapplicable6985 are you salty because you are incapable?
@@potencjalnypracownik2966 Nope, seems like you are though.
When you don't try to take every penny, people will want to help working with you. It's not about getting the best deals you can now, it's about setting yourself up for the best deals later by taking care of everyone and doing the right thing.
I guarantee he's going to do some even larger things in the future compared to what he's already done now, or he will always be able to find people to work with him because of how well he treats people. Integrity is a very powerful thing, and he has it.
This is actually very kind of you Thor, I would be proud to work with you actually, I think you're probably one of the best people on this planet. Not even exaggerating here, in terms of projects, you would probably be one of the best people to work with.
I have been following Thor for a while now and he might be the most wholesome human being on the planet. If everybody was like him the world would be paradise.
Christ, I've never even followed this guy, but seen many, MANY clips of him in various forms, and every video just makes me like and respect the dude more than the last time!
FWIW, this split makes sense for a game made by 3 people. They get royalties for the lifetime of sales and retain rights to the major contribution they made (ip, programming, design, visual art, music). That idea breaks down when you have a larger team-you can't give 25% to 100+ artists and 25% to the 1-3 composers that might work on a game. That makes for an illogical split.
However, you CAN portion a percentage per major pillar. Like 30% visual arts, 10% sound design, 10% music, 50% game design and programming. But if you want to give everyone on a large team royalties this way, you end up having to weigh the value of each individual contribution. If the composer only works on the game for 3 months, should they get a much larger (individual) share than the artists who were there the whole time? Probably not. But the music is not a small contribution, so maybe it should be a little bigger? It's hard to say at the beginning of a project.
That's why a simple contract like this sounds really nice, but isn't manageable when the scale of a project expands beyond a single digit team size.
Edit: if you read this far and care for more, check the replies for my thoughts on how I'd structure a fair royalties contract with a bigger team.
This requires more thought and consideration, but if i was going to build a contract for a larger project team, on gut feeling, i might do something like this:
30-50%*** of total net revenue from the project is allocated for royalties. Each contributing team member gets a percentage of those royalties relative to their time spent on the project. The granularity of time tracking should be relatively coarse, because I wouldn't want people wasting mental effort tracking 15 min breaks. Per day or even per week would work.
Additionally, the studio retains overall IP rights, but in the case of secondary products (art books, soundtrack albums, etc) 80% of net revenues are allocated to the contributing team members on those products. 20% is kept for the studio, just to ensure there is some incentive to actually bother producing those secondary merch items.
I think this split, while not perfect, strikes an acceptable balance between benefit to the studio and fair compensation to the team. While avoiding over valuing any one pillar of the project. Each team member just gets a compensation for how much time they committed.
*** 30% in the case where team members are being paid a salary or wage. 50% if the budget for the project can't afford immediate compensations.
@@Wanooknox I like the concept for this. But I've got issues with some fundamentals in who gets what and why.
I'm a very strong advocate for worker's rights. I just want that to be out in the open. That said I do believe strongly in the old adage of "fair pay for fair work". But we've gotten a bit further since people actually said those things in a meaningful way.
And the part where you say that people will be payed based on X amount of time spent on the project is to me a surefire way to kill this idea before it can take root.
A worker should always have a baseline income guaranteed from the employer. This baseline income should be enough to live in adequate comfort and safety. That is the bare minimum otherwise you're going to get people that won't work or not take the job seriously enough. Now that said. After the base pay that should not be "minimum wage" is established. I do believe that in sectors like this where there is a lot of creative working and on-project based work. Whatever revenue generated like Thor showcased is a good baseline for bonus income. Meaning it's more likely to generate a desire to work and keep working since they're getting something extra. What I also like from Thor is that he essentially makes a budget with an already built-in pool of funds for any software or potential hardware need the artists and designers would or could need.
Having multiple piles of money in order to fund future costs is a good pro-active decision to lower unnecessary spending and unwanted straining on the budget as a whole.
Obviously this changes at scale, but a team of 100 is making a significantly different product than a team of 3.
A team of 3 make and indie game that *hopefully* reaches an audience of thousands. A team of 100 people made Call of Duty 4, a game that made over $715 million.
I can really only think of one indie team getting that level of AAA style popularity, and that would be Mojang with Minecraft, who had a very small team even when Microsoft finally purchased them.
@@Kaiquintos I'm absolutely on board with fair wages. The skills necessary to make games, regardless of department, are complex to learn and warrant good compensation.
When I mentioned the compensation thing at the end, I was thinking of a really small team like Thor's. I've made games with friends in the past, where we are all contributing outside of regular daily work, without compensation. This wasn't a day job arrangement and we didn't have a "budget" per-se. It was a for-fun project. But in the case of a real proper studio with funding, employees should be getting proper salaries and benefits, of course.
Perhaps I cast too wide of a net when I was thinking about this earlier today 😅.
@@Wanooknox haha no sweat my dude, I am no game dev or business owner. I'm just someone that strongly believes in that one should not have to work excessively for barrel scraps.
Anyway I do agree that you that this is definitely worth figuring out because there's just so many larger corporations that just exploit their hard working teams. And I do understand that regardless of what industry, a company wants to make money first and foremost. I just believe it can be done without the unnecessary soul crushing and exploitation of the workforce. And I agree with you that what Thor showcased is most suited for small scale jobs. I do it has potential for a much larger group. Even if said group consists of multiple studios and several hundreds of people. However I am not going to be the one figuring that one out so I'll leave that to the much smarter folks 😅
He's an honest leader that the people needed! 💯
The three other guys wanted to cry… coz they wish they had a boss like Thor 😂
That dude is too wholesome... every industry needs more people like him
honestly, the way thor manages bussiness in the videogame industry, makes me think he would be the ideal succesor of gabe newell, a new head of steam, that won't make it public and protect it from other greedy companies and investors
I love that people complain about the wages and working conditions and then go out and hire their own team one day and do the exact same bad things to them but Thor would rather be part of the solution and not be greedy when the only thing stopping him from doing so is himself.Massive respect to you and anyone that does anything like this in any industry.
That's... really smart. Ensures you'll keep your art consistent. That your artists will thrive. And... like, people may not comment on how vital the music is to the experience, but then you play a demo that doesn't have it and it just feels wrong and not in a "this is leading to something" way creepy horror vibes go. Just... "did I fuck up the settings?" wrong.
Sometimes I also do this on a much smaller scale when buying stuff at the local markets from vendors who handmake or grow their goods themselves. I'll ask what their price is for an item or number of items, then hand them 50% - 100% more than they quoted and tell 'em to keep the full amount since I want to support their entrepreneurial venture and see them thrive! It makes me feel good and every now and then it brings them to tears which always ends up being a wholesome moment for us all 💯😁🤙🏼
So glad to see an owner taking care of his employees. Remember, as a worker, you are selling your services to a company. They are depending on you. Whit that said, you are worth more to the company than you think. And a great leader can see that.
Thor took the phrase "Be the change you want to see in the world" quite literally, and that's just amazing.
Thor is what corporations should have been: A way to get a bunch of people to all pitch in and succeed while loving what they do. They don't have the financial pressure of "if I leave this job, I stop having healthcare" because they're still getting checks based off of sales. I aspire to be able to build something as great as Thor's structure
The more shorts I see of this guy, the more I like him.
And this is why Thor is killing it everywhere. Seems like a great dude to work for and/or be friends with
This is 100% how I'd run a project like this if I have a chance. Love seeing people showing up and proving that fair alternative models work.
This guy is an amazing boss
It only really works in the small scale like what hes got since as costs add up devs make up the bulk of costs from pay checks to hardware/software easily dwarfing the art and music team by alot so to shave off 50% of sales from the game to such a small portion of the team is crazy and will in turn make the devs feel shittier but since hes the primary coder on this project it works since any other coder was more of assistance rather then full time work so it makes sense they got a smaller cut while the music and art people did a lot more then those assistants to thor since they handled stuff thor couldn't do himself.
@@Notaforumguy007 you could just divide it up equally per person, I don't think anyone would complain
@@Notaforumguy007 The point Thor is making is not to make it as if every game dev needs to splits everything evenly... But more about being fair.
The reason AAA companies are in such a terrible condition right now is because all the money being made goes into the investors and higher ups, something he experienced first-hand after being paid under minimum wage when he worked at Blizzard.
Game devs in general are being treated like garbage compared to any other creative line of work and he wants to change that.
He only needs to make enough money to make a game he wants, while managing the rest of the income to the rest of his team.
As a musician and composer, I have yo say that is so honorable of you. Musicians' skills, experience and work is so undervalued in our country it makes most of us give up and turn it into a hobby instead of our profession.
Mr. Thor is a person we should all strive to be.
I don't follow this guy or watch his streams but I will say he sounds like a really kind and thoughtful guy.
It's things like this I was happy to shell out full price for Heartbound. I highly recommend this game and this mindset.
As a composer for media, including a handful of games, you are amazing. This is unheard of!
He has the same aggro kindness as Tanjiro from DS
Treating the creatives on a team like this is unheard of. Glad to see this
This is genius. By making the game dirt cheap and releasing it into early access alongside monetizing the development directly, he gets to appear extremely generous. He makes it seem like he's giving away half of his profits when in reality, the sale of the game is only a small fraction of his income.
Is it not generous though?
I understand that he gets some money from the publicity the games generate because of streams, but he not only paid them more than they asked for, but continues to pay and support them for their previous contribution to his IP, and the publicity he gets supports them too, as more people then buy the game.
Without the successful game, the music and art wouldn't be bought in nearly the same capacity, and so far the revenue from the game alone, not including OST and art sales, would net both the artist and musician $175k (gross revenue being $700k so far).
As for the rest of his income, it would either come from games he made (in which, according to this, he pays them the same as in this case), or the long streams he does, in which case I'd say the money is fairly deserved.
It's genius in that it's a win situation for everyone, but I'd say that at the very worst, if he's not generous, then he's fair, and he still deserves the praise he gets because of the other content he posts.
I am musician myself. If i would have such a negotiation, that i want less but company give me more, this is really something. I lot of people unfortunately undervalue music for any kind of industry. Really happy for you treating sound design person with respect. My appreciation for your mind set💪💪💪
Hope more companies could treat their employees like you!!!
"I'll be ok with 15%"
"Nah fuck you, you're gonna take 25% and you're gonna like it."
"No, youre getting more." is my dream to hear from an employer
The thing that large bussinesses can never understand is that kindness, humanity, passion and community will carry a game further than any amount of marketing and budget ever will. Stardew Valley is one of the best examples, where the game is made with love and the dev has gone on record saying "I will never charge for DLC or updates and feel free to quote me if I ever go back on that". Thor understands this and above all: he understands that the success of a game should not be paid with the blood sweat and tears of the devs. If you offer a fair pay and ask a fair and affordable price, people WILL come to you!
His team is 3 people you can’t scale this model to a team of thousands. His game will also never be profitable he has been working on it for probably 10 years at this point and will sell very few copies because that’s indie game market.
Bro that is solid. I’m happy to see someone with programming skills showing the world how it should be.
GIGATHOR
And now the fact that Thor and Ludwig work together is astounding. Both pay their employees far more than expected
Thor: "You'll take your 25% and LIKE IT"
If i got this treatment and the company fell on hard times i would work with cut or no pay and do everything i can to help get us out of that situation. This kind of treatment might not make you max amount 😊of money short term but it will show in your product and your staff will actually be loyal.
Glad Thor is getting notoriety. This man knows how to run a business with his employees in mind.
seeing JP actually makes me nostalgically happy. I used to watch SC2 tournaments in 2011-2013 and JP was a caster.
Damn, JP. You've been holding out on me.
Master of bullshit
Love you for this attitude man. It goes into everything you do, and it shows!
This guy is so full of shit every single time. Its hilarious
Special needs is strong with you.😂😂😂
Artist"ill work for 15% man"
Thor"sorry, that isn't economical for us. How bout 25%?"
I love this! You're my inspiration to finally get started on Game Development
This is the one example of a fair pay structure I have ever heard of in any industry. This sounds like the most balanced way to deal with a complex problem in creative endeavors.
Much love for appreciating Musicals. They are so important
"weather it in house or otherwise"
Thats a very important distinction and that is super big of him. Letting them use the tools he provides to create anything weather its for the company or something on their own.
I only knew this guy from his youtube short but god he's so wisw intelligent i learned alot from him watching his short pop up randomly i respect this guy he's a leader there's no question about it
As an Art Teacher I love your take here.
I have a game on steam i'm releasing soon, and i also have an artist and a musician. this is what i was planning on doing, down even to the artbook and ost. this is my first time releasing a paid game with a full team under me, and i had no idea what would be appropriate money-wise, so seeing this really helped. thank you!
How is it possible to find this man more admirable with every short I see of him
Dude I really enjoy your content and your mentality. Very refreshing in our modern culture
Music is an important and often underrated element of games. I appreciate this.
This is my practice when buying things from people. When I ask to buy something off of them and they say a price less than 60% of what it was actually worth, I’d pay them to at least the 80% mark.
This happened the other day with a guitar Amp, I went to go buy it, the dude asked for 30$, the amp brand new was worth 100$, and 60$ used. I paid him 60$ for it even when he didn’t want me to pay that much.
It’s a principle I stand by to not screw over people even if I have to throw out politeness to do so. If I want something from you, I want to make sure you walk away from that thinking “I felt good about that” not doubting your decision. If I lose money doing this so be it, my personal principles are above my greed.
People often forget that art and music are 50% of a game, and they're the two hardest things to do in the game too. Programming can be learnt by anyone, but few are blessed with art skills.
As a budding composer for games, I'm very appreciative of folks like Thor that value the creatives on the project as much as they do ❤
That's actually SO RESPECTABLE. We need WAY more people like Thor!!
I would 100% do the exact same thing, except I'd probably be the musician in this scenario 😅
Fairness and happiness are way more important to me than greedy profit margins or whatever. I used to grow cannabis back in the day to survive, but i still just practically gave it away to people because i mostly just loved growing, and i loved to spread the happiness and to help out people who had health issues.
Im thinking if i should start growing again, but legal cbd strains this time. And maybe even make it into a business.
Many people are have a dream like him, but he's the only that has the finesse to run the business, and the integrity to still be true to himself even if money starts flowing in his pocket. I really hope he grows big and turns out to be another Larian
True Alpha right there! Supporting and building people up. Much respect
I am a failed startup founder only had 3 developers with me. But honestly this is the best because they actually come in wanting to give you their best work, it honestly pays for itself.
The way they were a jovial and happily laughing he bewildered them so much they just had to listen and see how much of a goat thor actually is. Can see them processing his genius
_It's not about the money, is about sending a message_
This guy always impresses me with how he can be so logical and empathetic at the same time. he maxes out both stats
The very definition of "Be the change you want to see in the world" 💙
“Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to”
-Richard Branson
It makes sense for heartbound which has like a 100 songs.
Not for the average indie game which has like 20-25 songs max.
I’m gonna go buy a few of your games. Don’t even care if I play them. This is more of the attitude that we need that will make every industry better.
Being his musician has to be the ultimate dream job
This a result of being involved for the artistry and not sheerly turning a massive profit… corporate business has brought our beloved games industry to its knees… the quality, involvement, satisfaction. Buying up small studios and just absorbing the beauty and talent there is in the field… to feed into the meat grinder of meaningless numbers.
If you want good employees, make them believe in the company too, make them want it too. This is how you do that. A seen employee is a HARD WORKING employee. Value them.
nice to see someone not being greedy with the money and treating their workers well
Thor in the banana costume menacingly staring at the musician 'you gonna get 25% you have no choice in this' and then recedes into the goblin cave
pirate software is the hero we need, but not the one we deserve, hes such a pure soul
This is the type of shit that will make me buy a game just to support those values.
Thor seems like an awesome higher up to have. Dudes got a level head. I always question why i work as hard as I do at work and the doubt always comes from whether or not my bosses care or acknowledge my effort or appreciate it. I appreciate that you put in effort to show appreciation.
he's also one of very few big streamers on Twitch who actually pays his mods with actual wage+benefits.
Imagine someone like H*san or Asm*n actually treating their mods like an actual employee or human being... They would never.
This why everyone loves Thor, he is one hell of a happy, friendly and kind dude.
That’s why your a legend and will
Allways be known for your sacrifice ❤