I have severe sleep apnea (AHI of 43 and a sleep efficiency index of 23%), and I have been using the Homeoblock Appliance for two months. I watched your video before I made a decision to spend $10,000 on the device. I'm glad I didn't listen to you. I have already noticed a significant improvement in my sleep quality. I've tried surgeries and dental devices and nothing has worked. This is working. I'm very optimistic going forward.
Very interesting! Are you still happy? Do you notice any tooth issue? I'm on the fence about what path I should follow regarding my sleep apnea (AHI:17, but >40 when on the back), and really looking for an option that could help me avoid surgery (MMA most likely). I'm 44.
My maxilla is expanding and if it weren't the device would always be tight, but after 7 days, it becomes loose until I adjust it again to expand it. I don't understand the dentist's complaint in the video. The literature is abundant in its recognition and demonstration of the beneficial effects of the Homeoblock Device. Just read some of the papers referenced by Dr. Belfor and you'll see the science behind the device.
@@ScottRachelson777 that’s good to hear! I’m on the fence about it especially with videos like this saying it’ll ruin teeth. I was quoted $10,000 as well for it but I’m unsure wether to get it or not since I’d not have sleep apnea as of now. Did your homeoblock have a bight plane? How old were you when you started and how long is your treatment? How many mm and how often are you turning it? Have you noticed any teeth issues?
It's important for people to understand that not all doctors are equally competent or intelligent. I would suggest that anybody looking for treatment using the Homeoblock device do their research and seek out the best, most competent people to implement and manufacture the device. I have been frequenting ENT doctors for years to treat my sleep apnea. These doctors have been a nightmare to me. I have had four invasive surgeries that did no good and one of them actually made things worse by giving me a slightly crooked nose. When I mentioned the crooked nose to the surgeon post-op, he just shrugged it off saying, "you signed the waiver." These ENT doctors are shooting in the dark and will not listen to their patient's experiences and use them as guides in their treatment suggestions. To these arrogant doctors, if it isn't in the literature, it doesn't exist except for in their patients' imaginations. I advise people to seek out doctors who actually care about helping their patients, not doctors with good bedside manners, pre-opp, which suddenly disappear after the surgery has been completed and they have been paid in full.
You should see if you can get Nester to agree to an interview. He obviously has an open mind. I can almost guarantee that it your logical thinking in a discussion, can only expand his viewpoint 😊
I was under the impression that Dr belfor developed the homeoblock. And in any videos I watch of him describing it he talks about bone borne expansion, not tooth born expansion and specifically about expanding the maxilla and airway, not the teeth
That's correct. Lot's of misinformation here. I shared the videos from JawHacks with my Orthodontist who works with Dr. Belfor. She told me the videos contain a lot of misinformation. Here's what Dr. Belfor says: ruclips.net/video/jUleuw7N3Go/видео.html
My entire jaw and the top of the inside of my mouth have naturally repositioned in the last two years. It has been an intense process-sometimes I felt my bones would break or teeth would fall out-but I did it slowly and only stretched and held in ways that felt really good, so I trusted the process and now my ear canals have totally opened and my sinuses are big open clear passages. I felt my face had fallen with age (43), and there were all these minuscule sneers connected to my nose. My face has completely lifted naturally and the sneers are gone. It was a huge emotional process but omg, like a miracle. I have conscious control over the muscles inside my face now and, while it’s still happening, I feel and look like I got a complete facelift. Like I went back in time and erased all the stress and emotional holding of a lifetime. Has anyone else experienced anything like this?
Is not an expander. It does not push on teeth nor expand the sutures .It does not create dental tipping It creates maxillary morphogenesis : The forces of the tongue against the palatal component of the device when swallowing creates a signal that transmits to the springs on the device , these light cyclical forces send a message to the periodontal ligament of the teeth where mesenchymal cells exists : periodontal ligament stem cells and that triggers the formation of bone at the alveolar process, not tipping , not expanding ………
@Jaw Hacks, I’m a dentist and agree completely with your logic. The bone-borne appliances are used in older patients to try to repair/recover from problems with “skeletal development”. Tooth-borne appliances when used in adults will most-likely only correct a “malocclusion”....these “malocclusions” are “secondary - subsequent problem” to improper skeletal growth. If you are going to fix a problem, fix the ORIGIN of the true issue !! (Skeletal)....don’t just fix the secondary results of the problem (Dental). If you just fix the dental aspect, yes, the teeth will LOOK better, but this will leave all of the skeletal problems to still exist. For example, if you have a cracked foundation in your house, yes, you can place shims below the walls, and make it APPEAR that you have fixed the problem, but most likely, whatever caused the foundation to crack in the first place will still continue (settling) and the walls of the house will repeatedly need to be addressed to keep them LOOKING like there isn’t an underlying problem (if the foundation continues to settle) Tooth-borne appliances work in young patients, because you can get orthoPEDIC changes with lower orthoDONTIC forces. (The bone and sutures are still relatively “soft” ) But when the sutures close, as they are in older patients, then you need forces that are applied directly to bone...either lower forces with surgical assistance, or possibly higher forces without surgical assistance, in order to get orthoPEDIC (skeletal) changes.
I agree. I'm 18 and just from mewing for 5 months I have a diastemia. My Jaw looks much better and healthy and I breath better. Since I know my suture isn't closed I'm getting a palatal expander. I'm going to do 1mm per week.
Surgically widening and splitting the palette has shown great sustainable results that is really the best solution after adulthood. We can do mewing and it will over time have incredible effects after adulthood but not to the full extent of surgery.
Hi Ron, I really appreciate your work and attempts at analysing devices which relate to facial development. However, I don't agree with the particular framing of this criticism. I'm going to suggest that what you've done in this video isn't really a debunking of the Homeoblock/DNA appliances but instead a construction of a strawman or a misunderstanding/misappropriating of the claims and methods of the Homeoblock/DNA appliances. Unlike AGGA , or other tooth borne appliances, Homeoblock/DNA does not claim that bone follows teeth through bone. Their claim is that new bone is created and this is usually evidenced by 3D scans. I am not a proponent of these devices but I think this should be explored (the reliability of scans etc.) in a proper criticism of these devices. Furthermore, the method of expansion as suggested by Homeoblock/DNA is unique in relation to other tooth borne devices. Homeoblock/DNA does not claim to split to suture, as you seem to suggest is necessary for expansion. Their claim is that there is growth at the site of suture made possible by the unique functions of the device and its interaction with the teeth. I think in order to properly criticise Homeoblock/DNA this claim is the one which must be fully explored and deconstructed. Lumping together all tooth borne devices as one thing with the same functions is insufficient. I'd also like to finish with your claim that such devices do little to nothing to improve nasal breathing/changing of the airway. The DNA appliance is marketed as a treatment for sleep apnea and is currently seeking FDA approval so it can be recognised as such. While ancedotes aren't enough, surely the indication that the developers of this device are seeking FDA approval for its use as a treatment for sleep apnea seems to suggest they have found significant success with it in relation to its use in the improvement of breathing? Again, I am very appreciative of your work but I think this video misses the mark. I would really appreciate a detailed analysis of both the Homeoblock and DNA appliances and not a critcism of tooth borne appliances more generally which is inconsiderate/unaware of the claims, methods and evidences of the Homeoblock and DNA appliances.
Hi, thanks for the response. Are you denying that the DNA and Homeoblock are toothborne appliances? Would you concede that they are at least mostly toothborne? If so, then aren't they subject to the 4 problems laid out in the video? Can you tell me of any advantages they hold over a mostly bone-borne expander like the MSE? This idea that there are "unique functions of the device and its interaction with the teeth" is a major problem for me (and don't these "interactions" mean the devices are at least partially toothborne?). This language reeks of AGGA bullstuff marketing. It is plastic and metal pushing up into the roof of the mouth and onto/around the teeth. That is basic mechanics. There is nothing magical about that. The effect of applying mechanical force to teeth is well known and is detailed in the video. There may be some positive change but it is an inherently flawed technique. Last, just because it is marketed as a sleep apnea appliance does (and even if it is FDA approved) does not make it the best option available. For example, while there are plenty of drugs approved by the FDA to treat headaches, some are much better than others. Thank you for taking the time to write and I appreciate your contribution.
I am no expert on the topic, but I think the bone born devices are best for adults/teens due to the fact that the jaws are mostly done growing. I can see how DNA, Homeoblock, and other similar devices could have a great upside in childern to promote growth in the right direction. To me it seems to risky to uses teeth born devices in adulthood. Thats just my two cents.🤙✌
@Jaw Hacks, I’m a dentist and agree completely with your logic. The bone-borne appliances are trying to repair/recover from problems with skeletal development. The tooth-borne appliances are mainly trying to correct a “malocclusion”....a “secondary - subsequent problem” to improper skeletal growth. If you are going to fix the problem, fix the origin of the true issue !! (Skeletal)....don’t just fix the secondary results of the problem (Dental). If you just fix the dental aspect, yes, the teeth will LOOK better, but this will leave all of the skeletal problems to still exist. If you have a cracked foundation in your house, yes, you can place shims below the walls, and make it APPEAR that you have fixed the problem, but most likely, whatever caused the foundation to crack in the first place will still continue (settling) and the walls of the house will once again need to be addressed to keep them LOOKING like there isn’t an underlying problem.
@@JawHacks Hi Ron! I very much appreciate the reply. I'd like to reiterate that I'm not sold on these devices nor am I proponent of them. Like you and many others, I am deeply interested in the development of the jaws and what appliances are and are not effective in treating the development/underdevelopment of the jaws. This is the angle I'm coming from, I'm sure you can appreciate that within this rather niche field orthodontics/orthotropics information and consensus is very hard to come around, so being rigorous in our discussion surrounding these devices is of most importance. To continue then, I am not looking to argue on behalf of these devices nor am I denying that they are toothborne applainces.. My contestation is that both the Homeoblock and DNA appliances make a specific claim about how they achieve growth which is in contestation with your claims about all tooth borne appliances and they usually evidence this with 3D scans. Regardless of the terminology I use or they use in describing this process, simply suggesting that it is too similair to the language used by AGGA in decieving their patients isn't enough to dispute this claim. It needs to investigated and then disputed. Saying something sounds a bit suspect without investigating that suspicion is a defficient analysis. Again, lumping all tooth borne appliances together as you've done in this video, for me at least, isn't convinving enough. As I've said, this field of orthodontics/orthotropics is very much in its infancy and we need to be really specific in our analysis of devices which relate to this very new field of research. To criticise these devices we must make specific claims and investigations, not general ones.
@@JawHacksI agree with Lewis on this: for me, your argument lacks objectivity and suffers from black-and-white thinking. I get that MSE may well have been the best option for you given the damage your use of AGGA had done to your teeth. However, that doesn't mean that MSE will be best for everyone. I don't believe you've got a good understanding of the way Homeoblock & DNA claim to work, much less the way they do actually work. I'd like to see more scientific rigour in your arguments and offer this contribution to the debate: cfs-survivors.org/blog/2020/09/19/does-the-vivos-dna-appliance-really-work-via-epigenetics/
Dr. B Powers: As an orthodontist, I read with great interest the book and cringed when the dental tipping appliances were suggested as solutions for airway problems. It lacks knowledge and appeared to be selectively edited especially with the opportunity to talk with Dr. Marianna Evans. Thank you for your posts and getting the correct information shared. Agreed that the book should not be "thrown out with the bath water". It starts the very important conversation about breathing, health and airways. Keep posting. Most appreciated. Dr. Powers
@@smilepowerorthodontics4723 unfortunately sleep doctors just seem to know about CPAP, apnea sleep appliance, and UPPP surgery. It’d be nice to go an orthodontic route to fix the root cause.
Currently reading Nestor's book and that's why I wandered over here for this good discussion. Good to have dental professionals posting comments on this channel. Agree that Nestor does a good job transcending professional boundaries - or walls - to start a productive conversation. A suspicion should always be raised when someone claims to have 'figured it all out', as Nestor seems to do (and go overboard in so doing) in some instances. But then again, wasn't hand-washing among doctors in the late 19th century considered a fringe practice at one point?
@@smilepowerorthodontics4723 I've been through dozens of ENTs and Pulmonary Doctors, the best at places like Penn Medicine and Jefferson University in Philadelphia, PA. I have had four surgical procedures and tried a dental device and CPAP. I paid lots of money and got no value in return. I choke all the time on my food and beverages because of the last surgery. Most of the Sleep Medicine community is clueless from my experience. Going to a Sleep Medicine doctor will not necessarily solve your problems and might make them worse. Buyer beware!
I became very aware from this video that mse is a very effective way to spread the entire maxillary bone. I also mostly sympathize with the problems and limitations of tooth based expansion devices. Thank you.
You continually refer to the device as James Nestors Homeoblock. This is factually incorrect as it was invented by Theodore R. Belfor. I think you should have cited Belfor's research on the topic rather than James.
From what i have learned, people who wear the ALF appliance only experience tooth tipping and gum recession when their ALF dentist has little hands on experience with the appliance.
I had expanded my maxilla with a two-screwed Schwarz appliance more than a decade ago and my mid palatal suit was dramatically separated. At that time, the problem pointed out in this video did not exist. But now that I watch this video, I think I might not have recognized it at the time and that mse would be more effective.
Mike Mew talks about the necessity of having the appropriate expanding rate, and also a necessity of chewing force while the device is in place, letting lateral force translate into vertical hence bending the palatal suture.
Ronald, I’m 3/4 of the way through DNA appliance therapy and while I have seen a significant difference I agree that the results would probably be even more noticeable with MSE. I anticipate switching to MSE and getting more expansion once my DNA appliance time treatment is over. I will document my experience with both eventually
@@SchoolofEvMac DNA appliance can result in teeth tipping. I underwent this treatment and it did more harm than good. Any "growth" experienced was limited to palatial expansion in the long term. There will be a lot of relapses because the DNA appliance does not work with the tongue, the results achieved are more or less artificial and if you stop using the appliance there will be a significant relapse. Appliances such as the DNA are unhealthy given that they lock the upper jaw in place restricting proper flows of cerebrospinal fluid.
@@LV-po5cz such a garbage take lmao. Classic failed case and start hating just like the guy who posted this video. There’s also plenty of examples of MSE patients who end up with an utterly deformed face as 1 side expands and the other doesn’t leaving them more messed up than before, is that a reason to abandon MSE?
@@user-fn5xg7qt7u MSE by default will deform your face. This idea that expanding the palate by creating extensive trauma on the palate is highly flawed as you'll end up as you put it with a deformed face. Your upper jaw will be so abnormally large that your lower jaw will be unable to support it and thus the airway and the upper jaw will collapse as can be seen in some cases posted to Reddit. For your information, my dentist said that my DNA case was a huge success which I'm not sure if she was bluffing or just plain ignorant. The DNA appliance has high relapse rates because the only thing keeping things in place is that awkward device. Oral habits are never rehabilitated and most people have cranial distortions which the DNA appliance only expands upon and does not fix them. This is also true of MSE which made Ronald's face highly assymetric. To say that the DNA appliance has failed you first have to define what the DNA appliance is supposed to achieve which to my knowledge most practitioners leave it as an abstraction. The DNA appliance expanded the palate but everything else collapsed after a few months of not wearing that awkward upper appliance. It's not really about the device but the practitioner. Even then I would steer clear of any device or treatment modality that doesn't focus on Myofunctional rehabilitation such as the Alf or a Sodis APF activator.
I'm just finding out about this field of medicine, thank you for your insight it will be extremely helpful in preventing me making a massive error at the first post.
I’m about 6 weeks into my homeoblock / myofunctional therapy and I’m breathing significantly more smoothly and faster out of my nose. Nasal passages are opening more and more
Tamer of Horses as a life long mouth breather my nasal passages were very narrow, breathing out of my nose 24/7 was difficult and wasn’t getting the satiation I was looking for. They’re opening up and the flow of oxygen is overwhelming. (In a good way)
It is a valid post but it just makes me wonder, why would James Nestor, an investigative journalist, lie about his results he had with bioblock device, he clearly stated that his facial bone mass was measured, and it had increased significantly? Any ideas?
Ronald completely leaves a key point out which Mr. Nestor mentions in the book - the results were determined by a team at the Mayo Clinic. He (Mr. Nestor) got the attribution wrong, I believe - he attributed it to a team called "Analyze Direct" at the Mayo Clinic, but I actually believe it is more likely the Biomedical Imaging Resource core team (because Belfor recently cited them in another paper he did in the last couple years).
Okay, so instead of using this home-block appliance instrument what do you suggest instead? I really like this video and was informative. I'm glad I came across a different viewpoint.
hey man just checking in... do you have any regrets with the MSE or did it totally fix your issues? Im thinking of doing one myself. Would love to get your feedback
Many people have had incredible results from using the Homeoblock device. I just started using it five days ago, so I will provide updates on my progress throughout the course of treatment.
Light forces may induce bone change but we're talking minimal change for possible damage to the teeth. If you want to skeletally expand the maxilla/cheekbones, I just don't see how you're going to get change in that area with minimal force, the cheekbones are a dense area and the zygomatic sutures are probably even more resistant than the midpalatal suture. If you go according to Wolff's law, I think your maxilla can absorb these loads just fine without a need to remodel to adapt to them, it's the teeth that can't.
@@insidehor Yes, bone borne appliances will not do damage to the teeth even with higher forces which is why it's optimal. Higher forces transferred directly to the palate/maxilla is much more effective than using the teeth as an anchor.
I'm very curious to know what Mike mew and John mew think of MSE expansion. I trust them very much. As far as I know, john mew don't really prefer mse, they prefer bioblock, which is called "semirapid expansion."
I am about a year into my homeoblock treatment but I have progressed much slower then I was supposed to so I'm not really in a position to comment on the results. I tried to make a video on it, you might find it interesting. Would love to see how you are progressing with your journey since this video. Keep up the good work.
Yessss pushing out the teeth only never did make sense to me!! Dude thank you so much you just confirmed and explained exactly what I was thinking!! Bone born expansion is what will give my nasal cavity expansion!!! YESSSSS THANK YOU YOUR A GOD SEND❤️❤️❤️❤️💯💯💯
@@BN-xu5bz the world revolves around money and if you ain’t got none your fucked come back when you got it type shit. Is what it is. Only death is stopping me from getting this expansion tho
Quick q is this bone born suggested for early 20’s ppl. I have a mild midline discrepancy and my tongue doesn’t seem to fit up my palate fully plus it doesn’t stay up when I’m sleeping
Hey JawHacks. I had a lefort 1 2 piece osteotomy do you think expansion of the upperpallate is still possible or do i need to remove the 2 pieces surgically. Lefort 1s can be done in 1,2 and 3 pieces with different splits of the maxilla.
Will wearing it mess up my dental occlusion? Currently I have correct dental occlusion because of my braces, i want to use such a device on my maxilla to improve nose breathing during sleep, snoring and avoid sleep apnea in future.
Does Biobloc also classify as the expanders discussed in this video or is it significantly different? (As in expansion without causing fenestration and dehiscence?)
Yo thanks for this. I currently am about to be 21 and I have invisalign. I cannot mew properly right now and maintain it because I think my palate is narrow. Not for the middle tongue but what I think is the back. I cannot tell if it’s because I have a frenulum and that’s a tongue tie, or if it’s my palate. My invisalign looks like it is going to be more broad towards the end when I compare the aligners. I don’t know if that’s because my teeth are crooked inwards (possibly from clenching) or if they are trying to do palate expansion . My front teeth look tilted outwards. Although they appear somewhat inwardly tilted toward the back but I can’t tell. I have not proceeded from the first set because I wanted to research about this without causing back and forth damage. Do you think this is a danger to my buckle plates? And should I stop and use MSE? I also have malocclusion I think people have doubted this issue to me because my cheekbones are prominent ( maybe from fights, sleeping on face, and genetics ) and so I don’t look like I have a narrow maxilla. But I’m pretty sure I can’t fit my tongue in the back. I’m trying to figure out why I can’t achieve tongue oral posture. If it’s from my frenulum restricting tongue movements, if it’s that my palate is narrow in the back, or poor body posture and health at the moment (hormones)? Also , is it possible for teeth to restrict tongue suction hold if they are merely tilted inward and not actually narrow? Would it be possible for me to swallow properly with my tongue and get myback 1/4 tongue to the roof if I had a tongue tie? Or could I still do that but the frenulum still pulls the tongue down?
Hey man. I have a crowded upper palate that is definitely retruded, resulting in a weak lower jaw, which does have straight teeth but which is super retruded with a big nose. I am 25 years old, and have no money, what the fuck am I supposed to do? Am I fucked? I wish I could have used a homeoblock or something else when I was younger. Idk what to doz
Hi i have a question ive been wondering about for a long time. My diet it primarily soft foods so I never have to chew hard. Are Jaw exercizes an adequete substitue for training my jaw muscles that I dont get through chewing?
I wound up being a mouth breather as a kid after having broke my nose. my maxilla dropped leaving me with an indent in the procerus region which I hate. I’m against the idea of surgery and will avoid if I can. is there any way I can build up the procerus region so that perhaps the muscle can build and fill in a little more space? any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
I have a wonderful Ortho I am working with in Decatur. Oshea Oshea is the practice and Dr. Shannon is who you want to see. Tell her Michael sent you. She is the best.
I'm currently wearing the John Mew's Bioblock appliances for both upper and lower jaws. It's been 10 month since I started. I have expanded the upper jaw by 10mm at least (I've stopped counting) and I on month 3 into the treatment I developed a diastema between front teeth very similar to what you showed when your MSE caused a split in your jaw. So I assume mine also split in some way, just slowly. I have not done any x-rays or anything to detect if my airways got bigger, but current winter is the first one when I don't need to use nasal sprays to breathe properly and I barely used them even when I had a cold. It never happened before so I assume the appliance did work.
@m_is_notfree I haven't done any imaging to know if the suture split or not. And I did not wear a face mask. Currently I'm wearing braces to align teeth back and close the gaps. Now that there's enough space I will get an implant for one tooth that got pulled when I was a child.
@@СергейСиница-щ9к I've been wanting to get a biobloc for a while, and your results sound amazing! Who was your ortho, and did your face change for the better?
In my personal opinion, this is the best video on your channel. You gave a reasonable and compelling criticism of a very pervasive idea that a big name has been spreading. I feel like you did a huge favor to public education with this video. It really sets you apart from the confusing sea of Mew-ist information and channels. Thank you!
Dude your face looks great. Seems like the cheekbone issue was resolved. Did you do all of your MSE treatment with Dr. Newaz and overall what was you satisfaction level? I am currently deciding between him, Dr. Ting or Dr. Evans for my MSE and am wondering if there is any difference in quality of treatment between them.
I want to get the MSE, however I am really struggling to find a provider in the UK or even in Europe. Do you know where I can find a list of providers or who I can contact for a list of providers?
Dr Richard Cousley of the Priestgate clinic uses TADs. I contacted him once asking if he did MARPE/MSE, might be worth calling and asking? Dr Won was also supposed to do a seminar in 2020. Not sure if he’d be able to suggest anyone
In addition to Dr. Rebecca Bockhow, would you consider interviewing Dr. Marrianna Evans? Also, I wonder what these periodontists (especially Evans) would think about the stability of SFOT long term.
I highly recommend you learn more about the differences between the HB as they other bilaterally fixed appliances you mentioned similar to a Schwartz. Unilateral BiteBlock Technology® Does not push on the teeth and uses epigenetic signaling to stimulate bone growth and then tooth movement the exact opposite what you are accusing the appliance of doing. When an Appliance is fixed bilaterally with acrylic then I would agree with your assessments. But your incorrect understanding in the Homeoblock makes this video very dangerous In your comments are false and misleading. I would recommend you remove it thank you Dr. Scott Simonetti president of Advanced Facialdontics
hey, i am very interested in unilateral appliance you mentioned, i've never heard of it before, where can I get my hands on it... i need it badly, also if you would provide the average cost for the treatment please. Really need an expansion but I didn't want to worsen my situation (narrow and imbalanced palate, one side is wider and has more space for my tongue than the other).
hi mate would you do a video on SARPE? as far as i have researched, it widens the maxilla. but does it also bring the lower jaw forward. my ortho said that the lower jaw follows the upper jaw. will appreciate your input
MSE moves the zygomatae, to which the ramus is connected. It might just be that his ramus moved slightly outward, hence why his mandible looks slightly wider.
I broke my suture on the roof of my mouth and it stayed that way for TOO long, the key with the devices in my head would require very small adjustments(one a month) because due to my self care I have a now pushed forward mouth and major gum loss
Complete speculation: If you look at the language Dr. Belfor chose in marketing the Homeoblock over the last few years (admittedly he has toned this down on his personal website but there are still lingering bits there, and much more egregious examples being used by the businesses that sell the appliance or other dental providers who work with it), it is at best hyperbolic, but realistically more-so illogical and deceitful. Not hard to imagine someone who markets their product like this, wouldn't also flat out lie to recipients of the device about what kind of results they're experiencing. I don't expect Nestor to understand the proper way to read CBCT scans to verify any of the information Dr. Belfor is feeding him. One thing to consider.. we know proper splitting of the suture and actual expansion of the maxilla itself by any measurable degree always results in diastema, typically a single diastema right at the midline. Nestor makes no such claims as far as I'm aware.. How did he grow "3 pennies" worth of bone through expansion of the maxilla without creating a large diastema? Anyone with elementary knowledge can see that these devices have no where to apply force other than primarily the teeth and secondary the arch of bone holding the teeth. Perhaps the device will give you some effects similar to mewing, but you run the risk of tipping and pushing teeth in the process. And for what, we already know mewing will not split the suture or cause worthwhile expansion in mature adults, at best it just reinforces better posture, breathing, and perhaps slight muscular changes as your face adapts to the new posture. - Point is, Dr. Belfor can't even admit that his device is pushing on the teeth, why would his deception stop there? The devices still does something to create more space for your tongue by moving teeth, perhaps that was enough for Nestor to think it worked as it should, hence the endorsement.
@@alexandergonzo683 I've never seen a report of Homeoblock or DNA causing a diastema, and I believe it's because they don't work by splitting the suture. They work by remodelling bone using light forces applied over a very long period of time. That's my answer to your question about the "3 pennies" worth of bone. I get that you don't trust Dr Belfor, but I don't see how moving teeth alone would result in the breathing improvements reported by James Nestor. I'd like to see your future speculation backed up by solid scientific references.
@@grahamstoney169 Considering those appliances do not offer any "scientific" references other than studies they funded and controlled themselves (at least none involving adult subjects that I can find). There are studies done on children, but it is already widely known that tooth borne appliances can expand the palate in children since that suture will move freely before the teeth will. I find it worthwhile to have discussions without scientific evidence for either side at this point in time. Their evidence amounts to claims made by themselves alone, and the opposing evidence amounts to claims from any orthodontist or oral surgeon who is willing to speak openly about them. I don't suspect any conspiracy by orthos and surgeons to purposely hold back DNA/Homeo as all of these practitioners who are aware of DNA/Homeo openly support expansion through means of MSE, MARPE, DOME, SARPE; and they tend not to be the type of orthos we are all against, like those who extract teeth and do retractive work that only focuses on straightening teeth, not improving health. If DNA/Homeo worked, why wouldn't these specialists offer them? MSE is on average only $2,500-$4,500 for install and complete treatment, add $2,000-$3,500 if you require surgical assist in splitting the suture. Even at the top of the scale including surgical assist that is $8,000 - I see DNA/Homeo commonly quoted at $10,000-$20,000. I would think orthos would love to use them and pocket all that extra money, since its just a piece of acrylic with metal wire, the profit margins on that must be insane. I know I'm bouncing all over the place but those devices also market themselves as palate expanders as much or more than they do "mid face bone growers" so that circles back to diastemas, and why don't we see any diastemas if they're expanding palates as advertised?.. I did explain in my last comment how moving teeth can improve breathing; if it allows better tongue posture, better breathing could follow. Nestor is probably not a good reference point for positive outcomes considering he didn't just try Homeoblock. He did Wim Hof, various ancient meditative breathing exercises, sauna, yoga, conscious posture/mewing and a number of other things while researching for the book... who knows what exactly, or which combination of things gave him the most in terms of better breathing. You said it yourself, "they work by applying light forces" - Where do you think that force is being applied? From what anecdotal reports I've read, most people do not experience the force as light either. They can feel it pushing on the backs of the teeth it is in contact with, and they feel that pressure increase with every turn.
@@alexandergonzo683 All the scientific papers I’ve seen reporting studies sponsored by appliance manufacturers have cited other references, and there’s plenty of solid science relevant to these appliances beyond that, such as the papers on bone remodelling I cited in this article: cfs-survivors.org/blog/2020/09/19/does-the-vivos-dna-appliance-really-work-via-epigenetics/ Homeoblock is not the enemy: as you mention, retractive orthodontics is the enemy. I can’t speak for orthodontists who don’t offer the Homeoblock, but I have spoken with Dr Belfor and he told me they would need to be up to date with his training in order to offer it. If it’s anything like the Vivos Integrated Practice Program, it’s expensive. The fact that a particular provider doesn’t offer a particular device isn’t evidence that it doesn’t work. I explained in my last comment why you don’t see diastemas. Please read it again. Moving teeth isn’t going to improve UARS; you need to expand the floor of the nasal cavity to do that. I agree that James Nestor was doing many things at one time and it’s possible some of the improvement he got is due to one of the other techniques. I have a friend who trained with Patrick McKeown and I’ve done his Oxygen Advantage program. I’ve also practised many of the other breathing techniques you describe. I got very little recognisable benefit in my obstructive sleep apnea from any of them, so I remain sceptical of your speculative assertion that Nestor’s improvement was due to something other than what he says it was. Homeoblock is a tooth-borne expander so obviously the force is applied to the jaws via the teeth. If the people you are talking to are feeling the pressure increasing over time, they’re expanding too fast and not following the protocol. It’s not a rapid palate expander; it’s a very slow palate expander if you want to think about it in those terms. Read the article I linked above and you’ll get why this is important. That said, if you want to have discussions based purely on speculation without scientific evidence, I’ll bow out now and leave you to it.
@@grahamstoney169 you do realize that you are sharing the only link that anyone on jaw forums shares to defend the DNA device.. and it is absolutely meaningless according to your standards.. that is not published in any medical journals.. that amounts to nothing more than a blog post / advertisement and the references within are either not discussing DNA/Homeoblock devices directly, or they too are opinion pieces.. and then you look at the bottom and its fucking written by you hahahahahahahaha You know what does have numerous unbiased and independent from the manufacturer run studies that have been published in medical journals... MSE, MARPE, SARPE, DOME I see I have wasted much time.. you ignoring every point I've made to repeat vague statements about how DNA "works" should've been my first clue that you're shilling.
My dear Ron.. Can I please request you to pay equal attention to transversal mandible expansion and methods available. If we are ruling out tooth anchored expanders, the MSE becomes redundant if we don’t have a solution for mandible expansion, for us where the mandible is the primary problem or the more narrower arch. I’ve looked into BMDO, which seem to come with unsavoury risks such as nerve damage which is quite plausible since we are splitting mandible bone and tissue where there is no natural suture to split. It was quite saddening to see Dr Ting and Dr Vaughan tip toe around surgical side effect and make pathetic jokes about being able to eat hot pizza without burning ourselves. A true reflection of our modern healers. Work and research is left to us holistic, as-close-to-correct, solution seekers. So this leaves SFOT (which you say you will be applying to yourself) or resorting to tooth borne appliances only for the mandible to get ‘some’ space without causing nerve/tissue damage.. Look forward to your input.. peace and love
Hello Ronald, hope u doing alright. I’m not sure if you still check the comments but here it goes anyway: I am interested in having a MSE appliance but the thing is that I have a very narrow palate but very wide set eyes (hypertelorism). I wanted to ask you if the distance between your eyes increased or if it stayed the same? Thanks.
there is low probability that an mse will expand the space between your eyes, if you research anatomy or just watch Ronald's video on "how the mse works" you will see that it only affects bones under the eyes. So unless you have a maxilla that is placed so high it sets between your eyes (which is anatomically impossible unless you had a huge deformation), you should be good, but check with your local orthodontist too, and look up the orthotropics website and their map of orthotropists around the world.
I think you are starting to remind me of the fox whose tail was bitten off at this point. I beleive that a slight toothborne expansion with habit correction firstly would make the results stable, because the tongue would be the retainer. That's the bigger problem with toothborne orthodontics imo rather than the moving itself.
Well then you have people who have tried it for 12 months posting befor and after information videos etc. Good research but I guess the people who have tried speak louder than that!
Hey Ronald, couple questions 1. have you stopped your blog? 2. are you still happy with your MSE treatment? would you recommend it if i’m primarily interested in forward growth (MSE + Face Mask). would also like some more prominent zygos. 3. Have you looked at Kieran’s Dowden Appliance? (some kind of new facepuller)
I have severe sleep apnea (AHI of 43 and a sleep efficiency index of 23%), and I have been using the Homeoblock Appliance for two months. I watched your video before I made a decision to spend $10,000 on the device. I'm glad I didn't listen to you. I have already noticed a significant improvement in my sleep quality. I've tried surgeries and dental devices and nothing has worked. This is working. I'm very optimistic going forward.
Very interesting! Are you still happy? Do you notice any tooth issue? I'm on the fence about what path I should follow regarding my sleep apnea (AHI:17, but >40 when on the back), and really looking for an option that could help me avoid surgery (MMA most likely). I'm 44.
How are you now? How much r u paying per month?
@@rzlk6647 Much better! I'm noticing some improvements after 5 months. I'm paying $222 per month.
My maxilla is expanding and if it weren't the device would always be tight, but after 7 days, it becomes loose until I adjust it again to expand it. I don't understand the dentist's complaint in the video. The literature is abundant in its recognition and demonstration of the beneficial effects of the Homeoblock Device. Just read some of the papers referenced by Dr. Belfor and you'll see the science behind the device.
@@ScottRachelson777 that’s good to hear! I’m on the fence about it especially with videos like this saying it’ll ruin teeth. I was quoted $10,000 as well for it but I’m unsure wether to get it or not since I’d not have sleep apnea as of now. Did your homeoblock have a bight plane? How old were you when you started and how long is your treatment? How many mm and how often are you turning it? Have you noticed any teeth issues?
It's important for people to understand that not all doctors are equally competent or intelligent. I would suggest that anybody looking for treatment using the Homeoblock device do their research and seek out the best, most competent people to implement and manufacture the device. I have been frequenting ENT doctors for years to treat my sleep apnea. These doctors have been a nightmare to me. I have had four invasive surgeries that did no good and one of them actually made things worse by giving me a slightly crooked nose. When I mentioned the crooked nose to the surgeon post-op, he just shrugged it off saying, "you signed the waiver." These ENT doctors are shooting in the dark and will not listen to their patient's experiences and use them as guides in their treatment suggestions. To these arrogant doctors, if it isn't in the literature, it doesn't exist except for in their patients' imaginations. I advise people to seek out doctors who actually care about helping their patients, not doctors with good bedside manners, pre-opp, which suddenly disappear after the surgery has been completed and they have been paid in full.
which doctor did you consult with for your homeobloc treatment?
@@nouyed Dr. Theodore Belfor and Dr. Irene Grafman, who learned from him.
@@ScottRachelson777and I’m guessing insurance covers none of it?
You should see if you can get Nester to agree to an interview. He obviously has an open mind. I can almost guarantee that it your logical thinking in a discussion, can only expand his viewpoint 😊
I was under the impression that Dr belfor developed the homeoblock. And in any videos I watch of him describing it he talks about bone borne expansion, not tooth born expansion and specifically about expanding the maxilla and airway, not the teeth
That's correct. Lot's of misinformation here. I shared the videos from JawHacks with my Orthodontist who works with Dr. Belfor. She told me the videos contain a lot of misinformation. Here's what Dr. Belfor says: ruclips.net/video/jUleuw7N3Go/видео.html
your face, specifically your eye area look great especially recently. I think your face is starting to adjust to the wider maxilla
i appreciate that. yeah, maybe.
Definitely
@@JawHacks hope alls well man. Where have you been?
@@JawHacks 100% yes.
True you good looking
My entire jaw and the top of the inside of my mouth have naturally repositioned in the last two years. It has been an intense process-sometimes I felt my bones would break or teeth would fall out-but I did it slowly and only stretched and held in ways that felt really good, so I trusted the process and now my ear canals have totally opened and my sinuses are big open clear passages. I felt my face had fallen with age (43), and there were all these minuscule sneers connected to my nose. My face has completely lifted naturally and the sneers are gone. It was a huge emotional process but omg, like a miracle. I have conscious control over the muscles inside my face now and, while it’s still happening, I feel and look like I got a complete facelift. Like I went back in time and erased all the stress and emotional holding of a lifetime. Has anyone else experienced anything like this?
Did you use any appliance? Or all just oral posture and exercises?
When you say naturally repositioned did you do anything to aid this? Like myofunctional therapy? I am trying to achieve this without an appliance
What did you do for it??
what did you do
Is not an expander. It does not push on teeth nor expand the sutures .It does not create dental tipping
It creates maxillary morphogenesis : The forces of the tongue against the palatal component of the device when swallowing creates a signal that transmits to the springs on the device , these light cyclical forces send a message to the periodontal ligament of the teeth where mesenchymal cells exists : periodontal ligament stem cells and that triggers the formation of bone at the alveolar process, not tipping , not expanding ………
@Jaw Hacks, I’m a dentist and agree completely with your logic.
The bone-borne appliances are used in older patients to try to repair/recover from problems with “skeletal development”.
Tooth-borne appliances when used in adults will most-likely only correct a “malocclusion”....these “malocclusions” are “secondary - subsequent problem” to improper skeletal growth.
If you are going to fix a problem, fix the ORIGIN of the true issue !! (Skeletal)....don’t just fix the secondary results of the problem (Dental). If you just fix the dental aspect, yes, the teeth will LOOK better, but this will leave all of the skeletal problems to still exist.
For example, if you have a cracked foundation in your house, yes, you can place shims below the walls, and make it APPEAR that you have fixed the problem, but most likely, whatever caused the foundation to crack in the first place will still continue (settling) and the walls of the house will repeatedly need to be addressed to keep them LOOKING like there isn’t an underlying problem (if the foundation continues to settle)
Tooth-borne appliances work in young patients, because you can get orthoPEDIC changes with lower orthoDONTIC forces. (The bone and sutures are still relatively “soft” )
But when the sutures close, as they are in older patients, then you need forces that are applied directly to bone...either lower forces with surgical assistance, or possibly higher forces without surgical assistance, in order to get orthoPEDIC (skeletal) changes.
The problem is improper habits. Skeletal or teeth problems they are still symptoms, jaw surgeries have relapses for that reason.
I agree. I'm 18 and just from mewing for 5 months I have a diastemia. My Jaw looks much better and healthy and I breath better. Since I know my suture isn't closed I'm getting a palatal expander. I'm going to do 1mm per week.
@@onekingaj1004 hi, you still mewing? how you getting along?
Surgically widening and splitting the palette has shown great sustainable results that is really the best solution after adulthood. We can do mewing and it will over time have incredible effects after adulthood but not to the full extent of surgery.
How much is the probability of relapse?
Hi Ron, I really appreciate your work and attempts at analysing devices which relate to facial development. However, I don't agree with the particular framing of this criticism. I'm going to suggest that what you've done in this video isn't really a debunking of the Homeoblock/DNA appliances but instead a construction of a strawman or a misunderstanding/misappropriating of the claims and methods of the Homeoblock/DNA appliances.
Unlike AGGA , or other tooth borne appliances, Homeoblock/DNA does not claim that bone follows teeth through bone. Their claim is that new bone is created and this is usually evidenced by 3D scans. I am not a proponent of these devices but I think this should be explored (the reliability of scans etc.) in a proper criticism of these devices. Furthermore, the method of expansion as suggested by Homeoblock/DNA is unique in relation to other tooth borne devices. Homeoblock/DNA does not claim to split to suture, as you seem to suggest is necessary for expansion. Their claim is that there is growth at the site of suture made possible by the unique functions of the device and its interaction with the teeth. I think in order to properly criticise Homeoblock/DNA this claim is the one which must be fully explored and deconstructed. Lumping together all tooth borne devices as one thing with the same functions is insufficient.
I'd also like to finish with your claim that such devices do little to nothing to improve nasal breathing/changing of the airway. The DNA appliance is marketed as a treatment for sleep apnea and is currently seeking FDA approval so it can be recognised as such. While ancedotes aren't enough, surely the indication that the developers of this device are seeking FDA approval for its use as a treatment for sleep apnea seems to suggest they have found significant success with it in relation to its use in the improvement of breathing?
Again, I am very appreciative of your work but I think this video misses the mark. I would really appreciate a detailed analysis of both the Homeoblock and DNA appliances and not a critcism of tooth borne appliances more generally which is inconsiderate/unaware of the claims, methods and evidences of the Homeoblock and DNA appliances.
Hi, thanks for the response.
Are you denying that the DNA and Homeoblock are toothborne appliances? Would you concede that they are at least mostly toothborne? If so, then aren't they subject to the 4 problems laid out in the video?
Can you tell me of any advantages they hold over a mostly bone-borne expander like the MSE?
This idea that there are "unique functions of the device and its interaction with the teeth" is a major problem for me (and don't these "interactions" mean the devices are at least partially toothborne?). This language reeks of AGGA bullstuff marketing. It is plastic and metal pushing up into the roof of the mouth and onto/around the teeth. That is basic mechanics. There is nothing magical about that. The effect of applying mechanical force to teeth is well known and is detailed in the video. There may be some positive change but it is an inherently flawed technique.
Last, just because it is marketed as a sleep apnea appliance does (and even if it is FDA approved) does not make it the best option available. For example, while there are plenty of drugs approved by the FDA to treat headaches, some are much better than others.
Thank you for taking the time to write and I appreciate your contribution.
I am no expert on the topic, but I think the bone born devices are best for adults/teens due to the fact that the jaws are mostly done growing. I can see how DNA, Homeoblock, and other similar devices could have a great upside in childern to promote growth in the right direction. To me it seems to risky to uses teeth born devices in adulthood. Thats just my two cents.🤙✌
@Jaw Hacks, I’m a dentist and agree completely with your logic.
The bone-borne appliances are trying to repair/recover from problems with skeletal development. The tooth-borne appliances are mainly trying to correct a “malocclusion”....a “secondary - subsequent problem” to improper skeletal growth.
If you are going to fix the problem, fix the origin of the true issue !! (Skeletal)....don’t just fix the secondary results of the problem (Dental). If you just fix the dental aspect, yes, the teeth will LOOK better, but this will leave all of the skeletal problems to still exist.
If you have a cracked foundation in your house, yes, you can place shims below the walls, and make it APPEAR that you have fixed the problem, but most likely, whatever caused the foundation to crack in the first place will still continue (settling) and the walls of the house will once again need to be addressed to keep them LOOKING like there isn’t an underlying problem.
@@JawHacks Hi Ron! I very much appreciate the reply. I'd like to reiterate that I'm not sold on these devices nor am I proponent of them. Like you and many others, I am deeply interested in the development of the jaws and what appliances are and are not effective in treating the development/underdevelopment of the jaws. This is the angle I'm coming from, I'm sure you can appreciate that within this rather niche field orthodontics/orthotropics information and consensus is very hard to come around, so being rigorous in our discussion surrounding these devices is of most importance.
To continue then, I am not looking to argue on behalf of these devices nor am I denying that they are toothborne applainces.. My contestation is that both the Homeoblock and DNA appliances make a specific claim about how they achieve growth which is in contestation with your claims about all tooth borne appliances and they usually evidence this with 3D scans. Regardless of the terminology I use or they use in describing this process, simply suggesting that it is too similair to the language used by AGGA in decieving their patients isn't enough to dispute this claim. It needs to investigated and then disputed. Saying something sounds a bit suspect without investigating that suspicion is a defficient analysis.
Again, lumping all tooth borne appliances together as you've done in this video, for me at least, isn't convinving enough. As I've said, this field of orthodontics/orthotropics is very much in its infancy and we need to be really specific in our analysis of devices which relate to this very new field of research. To criticise these devices we must make specific claims and investigations, not general ones.
@@JawHacksI agree with Lewis on this: for me, your argument lacks objectivity and suffers from black-and-white thinking. I get that MSE may well have been the best option for you given the damage your use of AGGA had done to your teeth. However, that doesn't mean that MSE will be best for everyone. I don't believe you've got a good understanding of the way Homeoblock & DNA claim to work, much less the way they do actually work. I'd like to see more scientific rigour in your arguments and offer this contribution to the debate: cfs-survivors.org/blog/2020/09/19/does-the-vivos-dna-appliance-really-work-via-epigenetics/
Dr. B Powers: As an orthodontist, I read with great interest the book and cringed when the dental tipping appliances were suggested as solutions for airway problems. It lacks knowledge and appeared to be selectively edited especially with the opportunity to talk with Dr. Marianna Evans. Thank you for your posts and getting the correct information shared. Agreed that the book should not be "thrown out with the bath water". It starts the very important conversation about breathing, health and airways. Keep posting. Most appreciated. Dr. Powers
What do you suggest for sleep apnea?
@@tqb43 if you have been diagnosed with sleep apnea your referring doc will able to advise you specific to your case. Good health to you!
@@smilepowerorthodontics4723 unfortunately sleep doctors just seem to know about CPAP, apnea sleep appliance, and UPPP surgery. It’d be nice to go an orthodontic route to fix the root cause.
Currently reading Nestor's book and that's why I wandered over here for this good discussion. Good to have dental professionals posting comments on this channel. Agree that Nestor does a good job transcending professional boundaries - or walls - to start a productive conversation. A suspicion should always be raised when someone claims to have 'figured it all out', as Nestor seems to do (and go overboard in so doing) in some instances. But then again, wasn't hand-washing among doctors in the late 19th century considered a fringe practice at one point?
@@smilepowerorthodontics4723 I've been through dozens of ENTs and Pulmonary Doctors, the best at places like Penn Medicine and Jefferson University in Philadelphia, PA. I have had four surgical procedures and tried a dental device and CPAP. I paid lots of money and got no value in return. I choke all the time on my food and beverages because of the last surgery. Most of the Sleep Medicine community is clueless from my experience. Going to a Sleep Medicine doctor will not necessarily solve your problems and might make them worse. Buyer beware!
I became very aware from this video that mse is a very effective way to spread the entire maxillary bone. I also mostly sympathize with the problems and limitations of tooth based expansion devices. Thank you.
I think you've done a good job at looking at the issue objectively
thank you
"You're kidding me, Siri" 😂😂😂 Thank you for not editing that out. I'm LOLing
Hey Ron, can't wait for the next video bud. Just a question please, why did you remove Dr. Bockow's videos from your channel? Thanks man!
You continually refer to the device as James Nestors Homeoblock. This is factually incorrect as it was invented by Theodore R. Belfor. I think you should have cited Belfor's research on the topic rather than James.
From what i have learned, people who wear the ALF appliance only experience tooth tipping and gum recession when their ALF dentist has little hands on experience with the appliance.
I had expanded my maxilla with a two-screwed Schwarz appliance more than a decade ago and my mid palatal suit was dramatically separated. At that time, the problem pointed out in this video did not exist. But now that I watch this video, I think I might not have recognized it at the time and that mse would be more effective.
Mike Mew talks about the necessity of having the appropriate expanding rate, and also a necessity of chewing force while the device is in place, letting lateral force translate into vertical hence bending the palatal suture.
Where did your interviews with the female orthodontist go to?
Hi Bro, How come you don't make any videos any more? Are you okay?
Your face is looking better and better!
Ikr
Ronald, I’m 3/4 of the way through DNA appliance therapy and while I have seen a significant difference I agree that the results would probably be even more noticeable with MSE. I anticipate switching to MSE and getting more expansion once my DNA appliance time treatment is over. I will document my experience with both eventually
Has it improved your airway? Have you noticed teeth tipping or bone loss?
@@SchoolofEvMac DNA appliance can result in teeth tipping. I underwent this treatment and it did more harm than good. Any "growth" experienced was limited to palatial expansion in the long term. There will be a lot of relapses because the DNA appliance does not work with the tongue, the results achieved are more or less artificial and if you stop using the appliance there will be a significant relapse. Appliances such as the DNA are unhealthy given that they lock the upper jaw in place restricting proper flows of cerebrospinal fluid.
@@LV-po5cz such a garbage take lmao. Classic failed case and start hating just like the guy who posted this video. There’s also plenty of examples of MSE patients who end up with an utterly deformed face as 1 side expands and the other doesn’t leaving them more messed up than before, is that a reason to abandon MSE?
@@user-fn5xg7qt7u MSE by default will deform your face. This idea that expanding the palate by creating extensive trauma on the palate is highly flawed as you'll end up as you put it with a deformed face. Your upper jaw will be so abnormally large that your lower jaw will be unable to support it and thus the airway and the upper jaw will collapse as can be seen in some cases posted to Reddit. For your information, my dentist said that my DNA case was a huge success which I'm not sure if she was bluffing or just plain ignorant. The DNA appliance has high relapse rates because the only thing keeping things in place is that awkward device. Oral habits are never rehabilitated and most people have cranial distortions which the DNA appliance only expands upon and does not fix them. This is also true of MSE which made Ronald's face highly assymetric. To say that the DNA appliance has failed you first have to define what the DNA appliance is supposed to achieve which to my knowledge most practitioners leave it as an abstraction. The DNA appliance expanded the palate but everything else collapsed after a few months of not wearing that awkward upper appliance. It's not really about the device but the practitioner. Even then I would steer clear of any device or treatment modality that doesn't focus on Myofunctional rehabilitation such as the Alf or a Sodis APF activator.
@@LV-po5cz what is your preferred expansion device then if DNA and MSE are both highly likely to fail / cause negative e results in your opinion
I miss your vids lol, come back with some content hahhaha
How’s its going man , it’s been a while since you last updated us, your subscribers, to what you’ve been up to. hope to see you back soon
He died.
@@westernrev9628 nahhh , you gotta be kiddin .
@@ZUNNI333 Nope, I’am actually serious. His MSE appliance split his skull in half. Look it up.
@@westernrev9628 No...
@@westernrev9628 stop pls
I'm just finding out about this field of medicine, thank you for your insight it will be extremely helpful in preventing me making a massive error at the first post.
James Nestor himself specifically states that his own breathing became better with expansion though.
I’m about 6 weeks into my homeoblock / myofunctional therapy and I’m breathing significantly more smoothly and faster out of my nose. Nasal passages are opening more and more
@@brunskies92 Can you elaborate a vit more on "significantly"?
Tamer of Horses as a life long mouth breather my nasal passages were very narrow, breathing out of my nose 24/7 was difficult and wasn’t getting the satiation I was looking for. They’re opening up and the flow of oxygen is overwhelming. (In a good way)
@@brunskies92 are you still happy with your decision on the homeoblock?
@@kendralane5951 110%
And then he disappeared
hey when are posting we want to see your progress
It is a valid post but it just makes me wonder, why would James Nestor, an investigative journalist, lie about his results he had with bioblock device, he clearly stated that his facial bone mass was measured, and it had increased significantly? Any ideas?
Ronald completely leaves a key point out which Mr. Nestor mentions in the book - the results were determined by a team at the Mayo Clinic. He (Mr. Nestor) got the attribution wrong, I believe - he attributed it to a team called "Analyze Direct" at the Mayo Clinic, but I actually believe it is more likely the Biomedical Imaging Resource core team (because Belfor recently cited them in another paper he did in the last couple years).
Okay, so instead of using this home-block appliance instrument what do you suggest instead? I really like this video and was informative. I'm glad I came across a different viewpoint.
He mentions MSE multiple times
hey man just checking in... do you have any regrets with the MSE or did it totally fix your issues? Im thinking of doing one myself. Would love to get your feedback
Did u get it? How’d it turn out?
Many people have had incredible results from using the Homeoblock device. I just started using it five days ago, so I will provide updates on my progress throughout the course of treatment.
Can you update me on your progress so far? I’m considering getting homeoblock
Followup?
Completely counter to Mike Mews abundance of data. He uses palatial expanders no problem. Plus your face looks off. You’ve expanded too much.
I am also very questionable about this. John mew said that rpe expansion is a risk of recurrence and prefers bioblock for palatal expansion
Light forces may induce bone change but we're talking minimal change for possible damage to the teeth. If you want to skeletally expand the maxilla/cheekbones, I just don't see how you're going to get change in that area with minimal force, the cheekbones are a dense area and the zygomatic sutures are probably even more resistant than the midpalatal suture. If you go according to Wolff's law, I think your maxilla can absorb these loads just fine without a need to remodel to adapt to them, it's the teeth that can't.
which is why u get mse, Because it’s bone borne not tooth borne
@@insidehor Yes, bone borne appliances will not do damage to the teeth even with higher forces which is why it's optimal. Higher forces transferred directly to the palate/maxilla is much more effective than using the teeth as an anchor.
Did the surgical procedure work to heal your loose teeth?
Hey. Do you think bioblocs could expand the airway similar to MSE, just at a slower rate?
Ronald, upload more videos please
Why did you delete the interview with the doctor?
I'm very curious to know what Mike mew and John mew think of MSE expansion. I trust them very much.
As far as I know, john mew don't really prefer mse, they prefer bioblock, which is called "semirapid expansion."
I am about a year into my homeoblock treatment but I have progressed much slower then I was supposed to so I'm not really in a position to comment on the results. I tried to make a video on it, you might find it interesting. Would love to see how you are progressing with your journey since this video. Keep up the good work.
@@Elgansayer unfortunately despite a lot of people getting results on it, it didn't work for me, I explain it in the 2nd video. Cheers
hey how has it gone til now
Hey JawHacks, Where is the old videos ?
Come back, we miss your videos!
Do you think it’s possible for the MSE to save wisdom teeth if they haven’t been extracted?
Would love to know too
YES AT LAST! This is a big question 😭😭
That's a really good question. Did you get around to finding an answer anywhere?
Hope you’re doing ok man
Yessss pushing out the teeth only never did make sense to me!! Dude thank you so much you just confirmed and explained exactly what I was thinking!! Bone born expansion is what will give my nasal cavity expansion!!! YESSSSS THANK YOU YOUR A GOD SEND❤️❤️❤️❤️💯💯💯
Has it worked bro?
@@BN-xu5bz it will once I get it, I’m having a consultation within a month and imma get started soon as I can
@@BN-xu5bz the world revolves around money and if you ain’t got none your fucked come back when you got it type shit. Is what it is. Only death is stopping me from getting this expansion tho
Quick q is this bone born suggested for early 20’s ppl. I have a mild midline discrepancy and my tongue doesn’t seem to fit up my palate fully plus it doesn’t stay up when I’m sleeping
Please explain braces? If pushing teeth is so dangerous, why is this still a procedure still being done today?
What would be your preferred method of closing the gap after using the mse appliance?
So is Dr. John mew's bioblock semi rapid expansion method completely wrong? You're muying Mike Mew.
Hello. What do you think of the biobloc?
Hey JawHacks. I had a lefort 1 2 piece osteotomy do you think expansion of the upperpallate is still possible or do i need to remove the 2 pieces surgically. Lefort 1s can be done in 1,2 and 3 pieces with different splits of the maxilla.
Will wearing it mess up my dental occlusion?
Currently I have correct dental occlusion because of my braces, i want to use such a device on my maxilla to improve nose breathing during sleep, snoring and avoid sleep apnea in future.
Does Biobloc also classify as the expanders discussed in this video or is it significantly different? (As in expansion without causing fenestration and dehiscence?)
That is also a question I immediately had. Ronald never seems to talk about this appliance...
Yo thanks for this. I currently am about to be 21 and I have invisalign. I cannot mew properly right now and maintain it because I think my palate is narrow. Not for the middle tongue but what I think is the back.
I cannot tell if it’s because I have a frenulum and that’s a tongue tie, or if it’s my palate.
My invisalign looks like it is going to be more broad towards the end when I compare the aligners.
I don’t know if that’s because my teeth are crooked inwards (possibly from clenching) or if they are trying to do palate expansion . My front teeth look tilted outwards. Although they appear somewhat inwardly tilted toward the back but I can’t tell.
I have not proceeded from the first set because I wanted to research about this without causing back and forth damage.
Do you think this is a danger to my buckle plates? And should I stop and use MSE?
I also have malocclusion
I think people have doubted this issue to me because my cheekbones are prominent ( maybe from fights, sleeping on face, and genetics ) and so I don’t look like I have a narrow maxilla. But I’m pretty sure I can’t fit my tongue in the back. I’m trying to figure out why I can’t achieve tongue oral posture. If it’s from my frenulum restricting tongue movements, if it’s that my palate is narrow in the back, or poor body posture and health at the moment (hormones)?
Also , is it possible for teeth to restrict tongue suction hold if they are merely tilted inward and not actually narrow?
Would it be possible for me to swallow properly with my tongue and get myback 1/4 tongue to the roof if I had a tongue tie? Or could I still do that but the frenulum still pulls the tongue down?
MSE damages the bone permanently. Best expansion practice is the biobloc
If I may ask, what kind of expansion did you use?
Hey man. I have a crowded upper palate that is definitely retruded, resulting in a weak lower jaw, which does have straight teeth but which is super retruded with a big nose. I am 25 years old, and have no money, what the fuck am I supposed to do? Am I fucked? I wish I could have used a homeoblock or something else when I was younger. Idk what to doz
What was your original intermolar width?
Hi i have a question ive been wondering about for a long time. My diet it primarily soft foods so I never have to chew hard. Are Jaw exercizes an adequete substitue for training my jaw muscles that I dont get through chewing?
I wound up being a mouth breather as a kid after having broke my nose. my maxilla dropped leaving me with an indent in the procerus region which I hate. I’m against the idea of surgery and will avoid if I can. is there any way I can build up the procerus region so that perhaps the muscle can build and fill in a little more space? any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!
Hey man, do you know any ortho’s that specialize in MSE in Georgia or South Carolina?
I have a wonderful Ortho I am working with in Decatur. Oshea Oshea is the practice and Dr. Shannon is who you want to see. Tell her Michael sent you. She is the best.
@@OleWMD thank you for reaching out! Did you get MSE?
I'm currently wearing the John Mew's Bioblock appliances for both upper and lower jaws. It's been 10 month since I started. I have expanded the upper jaw by 10mm at least (I've stopped counting) and I on month 3 into the treatment I developed a diastema between front teeth very similar to what you showed when your MSE caused a split in your jaw. So I assume mine also split in some way, just slowly. I have not done any x-rays or anything to detect if my airways got bigger, but current winter is the first one when I don't need to use nasal sprays to breathe properly and I barely used them even when I had a cold. It never happened before so I assume the appliance did work.
If it worked you’d feel a big difference in your nasal breathing.
@@hazexo1131 You might be right
Did the palate median suture split? And did you wear a face mask? I'm curious. Thank you for your precious experience.
@m_is_notfree I haven't done any imaging to know if the suture split or not. And I did not wear a face mask. Currently I'm wearing braces to align teeth back and close the gaps. Now that there's enough space I will get an implant for one tooth that got pulled when I was a child.
@@СергейСиница-щ9к I've been wanting to get a biobloc for a while, and your results sound amazing! Who was your ortho, and did your face change for the better?
In my personal opinion, this is the best video on your channel. You gave a reasonable and compelling criticism of a very pervasive idea that a big name has been spreading. I feel like you did a huge favor to public education with this video. It really sets you apart from the confusing sea of Mew-ist information and channels. Thank you!
Dude your face looks great. Seems like the cheekbone issue was resolved. Did you do all of your MSE treatment with Dr. Newaz and overall what was you satisfaction level? I am currently deciding between him, Dr. Ting or Dr. Evans for my MSE and am wondering if there is any difference in quality of treatment between them.
Hey just wondering how this went for u im thinking of doing it myself. Also does the doctor matter? Could I get this done at a local orthodontist?
Keep posting , love the content
I want to get the MSE, however I am really struggling to find a provider in the UK or even in Europe. Do you know where I can find a list of providers or who I can contact for a list of providers?
Dr Richard Cousley of the Priestgate clinic uses TADs. I contacted him once asking if he did MARPE/MSE, might be worth calling and asking? Dr Won was also supposed to do a seminar in 2020. Not sure if he’d be able to suggest anyone
@@junehudson6147 Thank you very much for your response. I will try and contact them both
Howd you get on Iain?
@@RB621337 I found a list of providers if you are looking?
@@RB621337 www.moonmse.com/distributors-1
In addition to Dr. Rebecca Bockhow, would you consider interviewing Dr. Marrianna Evans?
Also, I wonder what these periodontists (especially Evans) would think about the stability of SFOT long term.
I will try and ask today, and yes I would be happy to interview Dr. Marianna Evans.
@@JawHacks Epic. Also, is your mandible still displaced out of the TMJ fossa?
If my lower teeth are croocked what do i use then? Equivalent to a mse?
Is homeoblock the same as bioblock?
A very good summary of this topic thanks.
I highly recommend you learn more about the differences between the HB as they other bilaterally fixed appliances you mentioned similar to a Schwartz. Unilateral BiteBlock Technology® Does not push on the teeth and uses epigenetic signaling to stimulate bone growth and then tooth movement the exact opposite what you are accusing the appliance of doing. When an Appliance is fixed bilaterally with acrylic then I would agree with your assessments. But your incorrect understanding in the Homeoblock makes this video very dangerous
In your comments are false and misleading. I would recommend you remove it thank you Dr. Scott Simonetti president of Advanced Facialdontics
hey, i am very interested in unilateral appliance you mentioned, i've never heard of it before, where can I get my hands on it... i need it badly, also if you would provide the average cost for the treatment please. Really need an expansion but I didn't want to worsen my situation (narrow and imbalanced palate, one side is wider and has more space for my tongue than the other).
hi mate would you do a video on SARPE? as far as i have researched, it widens the maxilla. but does it also bring the lower jaw forward. my ortho said that the lower jaw follows the upper jaw. will appreciate your input
It doesn’t expand the Nasal airways much. It is teeth focused, not upper bone focused.
WYA Ronald
Is he done updating us?
so you advocate an invasive device instead of a external spreader. Not a better option.
How the hell your lower third looks way better than your old videos ?
Is it just the lighting or MSE somehow widened your bigonial width too ?
MSE moves the zygomatae, to which the ramus is connected. It might just be that his ramus moved slightly outward, hence why his mandible looks slightly wider.
@Abdul R i am talking about its width from front, not side profile
@ZAbdulZ No lower third for my face
I wish he would come back :(
I broke my suture on the roof of my mouth and it stayed that way for TOO long, the key with the devices in my head would require very small adjustments(one a month) because due to my self care I have a now pushed forward mouth and major gum loss
if bone does not follow teeth then who do regular braces work?
Does this also apply to the biobloc appliance?
The owner of this channel seems skeptical of the bioblock device.
Is there any orthodontist you know of who would work/expand like Dr. Newaz?
What’s going on with you bro? Haven’t posted in a while
Just stumbled upon you a few days ago, you’ve given me a lot useful on MSE
Are these tratments different from DNA appliance ?
If what you're saying is true, how do you explain the positive results that James Nestor reported getting with his Homeoblock?
Complete speculation: If you look at the language Dr. Belfor chose in marketing the Homeoblock over the last few years (admittedly he has toned this down on his personal website but there are still lingering bits there, and much more egregious examples being used by the businesses that sell the appliance or other dental providers who work with it), it is at best hyperbolic, but realistically more-so illogical and deceitful. Not hard to imagine someone who markets their product like this, wouldn't also flat out lie to recipients of the device about what kind of results they're experiencing. I don't expect Nestor to understand the proper way to read CBCT scans to verify any of the information Dr. Belfor is feeding him. One thing to consider.. we know proper splitting of the suture and actual expansion of the maxilla itself by any measurable degree always results in diastema, typically a single diastema right at the midline. Nestor makes no such claims as far as I'm aware.. How did he grow "3 pennies" worth of bone through expansion of the maxilla without creating a large diastema? Anyone with elementary knowledge can see that these devices have no where to apply force other than primarily the teeth and secondary the arch of bone holding the teeth. Perhaps the device will give you some effects similar to mewing, but you run the risk of tipping and pushing teeth in the process. And for what, we already know mewing will not split the suture or cause worthwhile expansion in mature adults, at best it just reinforces better posture, breathing, and perhaps slight muscular changes as your face adapts to the new posture. - Point is, Dr. Belfor can't even admit that his device is pushing on the teeth, why would his deception stop there?
The devices still does something to create more space for your tongue by moving teeth, perhaps that was enough for Nestor to think it worked as it should, hence the endorsement.
@@alexandergonzo683 I've never seen a report of Homeoblock or DNA causing a diastema, and I believe it's because they don't work by splitting the suture. They work by remodelling bone using light forces applied over a very long period of time. That's my answer to your question about the "3 pennies" worth of bone. I get that you don't trust Dr Belfor, but I don't see how moving teeth alone would result in the breathing improvements reported by James Nestor. I'd like to see your future speculation backed up by solid scientific references.
@@grahamstoney169 Considering those appliances do not offer any "scientific" references other than studies they funded and controlled themselves (at least none involving adult subjects that I can find). There are studies done on children, but it is already widely known that tooth borne appliances can expand the palate in children since that suture will move freely before the teeth will. I find it worthwhile to have discussions without scientific evidence for either side at this point in time. Their evidence amounts to claims made by themselves alone, and the opposing evidence amounts to claims from any orthodontist or oral surgeon who is willing to speak openly about them. I don't suspect any conspiracy by orthos and surgeons to purposely hold back DNA/Homeo as all of these practitioners who are aware of DNA/Homeo openly support expansion through means of MSE, MARPE, DOME, SARPE; and they tend not to be the type of orthos we are all against, like those who extract teeth and do retractive work that only focuses on straightening teeth, not improving health. If DNA/Homeo worked, why wouldn't these specialists offer them? MSE is on average only $2,500-$4,500 for install and complete treatment, add $2,000-$3,500 if you require surgical assist in splitting the suture. Even at the top of the scale including surgical assist that is $8,000 - I see DNA/Homeo commonly quoted at $10,000-$20,000. I would think orthos would love to use them and pocket all that extra money, since its just a piece of acrylic with metal wire, the profit margins on that must be insane. I know I'm bouncing all over the place but those devices also market themselves as palate expanders as much or more than they do "mid face bone growers" so that circles back to diastemas, and why don't we see any diastemas if they're expanding palates as advertised?..
I did explain in my last comment how moving teeth can improve breathing; if it allows better tongue posture, better breathing could follow.
Nestor is probably not a good reference point for positive outcomes considering he didn't just try Homeoblock. He did Wim Hof, various ancient meditative breathing exercises, sauna, yoga, conscious posture/mewing and a number of other things while researching for the book... who knows what exactly, or which combination of things gave him the most in terms of better breathing.
You said it yourself, "they work by applying light forces" - Where do you think that force is being applied? From what anecdotal reports I've read, most people do not experience the force as light either. They can feel it pushing on the backs of the teeth it is in contact with, and they feel that pressure increase with every turn.
@@alexandergonzo683 All the scientific papers I’ve seen reporting studies sponsored by appliance manufacturers have cited other references, and there’s plenty of solid science relevant to these appliances beyond that, such as the papers on bone remodelling I cited in this article: cfs-survivors.org/blog/2020/09/19/does-the-vivos-dna-appliance-really-work-via-epigenetics/
Homeoblock is not the enemy: as you mention, retractive orthodontics is the enemy. I can’t speak for orthodontists who don’t offer the Homeoblock, but I have spoken with Dr Belfor and he told me they would need to be up to date with his training in order to offer it. If it’s anything like the Vivos Integrated Practice Program, it’s expensive. The fact that a particular provider doesn’t offer a particular device isn’t evidence that it doesn’t work.
I explained in my last comment why you don’t see diastemas. Please read it again.
Moving teeth isn’t going to improve UARS; you need to expand the floor of the nasal cavity to do that. I agree that James Nestor was doing many things at one time and it’s possible some of the improvement he got is due to one of the other techniques. I have a friend who trained with Patrick McKeown and I’ve done his Oxygen Advantage program. I’ve also practised many of the other breathing techniques you describe. I got very little recognisable benefit in my obstructive sleep apnea from any of them, so I remain sceptical of your speculative assertion that Nestor’s improvement was due to something other than what he says it was.
Homeoblock is a tooth-borne expander so obviously the force is applied to the jaws via the teeth. If the people you are talking to are feeling the pressure increasing over time, they’re expanding too fast and not following the protocol. It’s not a rapid palate expander; it’s a very slow palate expander if you want to think about it in those terms. Read the article I linked above and you’ll get why this is important.
That said, if you want to have discussions based purely on speculation without scientific evidence, I’ll bow out now and leave you to it.
@@grahamstoney169 you do realize that you are sharing the only link that anyone on jaw forums shares to defend the DNA device.. and it is absolutely meaningless according to your standards.. that is not published in any medical journals.. that amounts to nothing more than a blog post / advertisement and the references within are either not discussing DNA/Homeoblock devices directly, or they too are opinion pieces.. and then you look at the bottom and its fucking written by you hahahahahahahaha
You know what does have numerous unbiased and independent from the manufacturer run studies that have been published in medical journals... MSE, MARPE, SARPE, DOME
I see I have wasted much time.. you ignoring every point I've made to repeat vague statements about how DNA "works" should've been my first clue that you're shilling.
My dear Ron.. Can I please request you to pay equal attention to transversal mandible expansion and methods available. If we are ruling out tooth anchored expanders, the MSE becomes redundant if we don’t have a solution for mandible expansion, for us where the mandible is the primary problem or the more narrower arch. I’ve looked into BMDO, which seem to come with unsavoury risks such as nerve damage which is quite plausible since we are splitting mandible bone and tissue where there is no natural suture to split. It was quite saddening to see Dr Ting and Dr Vaughan tip toe around surgical side effect and make pathetic jokes about being able to eat hot pizza without burning ourselves. A true reflection of our modern healers. Work and research is left to us holistic, as-close-to-correct, solution seekers. So this leaves SFOT (which you say you will be applying to yourself) or resorting to tooth borne appliances only for the mandible to get ‘some’ space without causing nerve/tissue damage.. Look forward to your input.. peace and love
Why is he going for sfot instead of lower jaw surgery ? We can't get jaw surgery after mse?
Han Ji not certain why he would be using this in comparison. Maybe it’s because Ron is after lateral expansion more than forward. Guessing here
The ALF is NOT a palatal expander. Darrick Nordstrom did not develop it to be one
Can unbalance mewing cause a canted alignment
great into , thank you
Hello Ronald, hope u doing alright. I’m not sure if you still check the comments but here it goes anyway: I am interested in having a MSE appliance but the thing is that I have a very narrow palate but very wide set eyes (hypertelorism). I wanted to ask you if the distance between your eyes increased or if it stayed the same? Thanks.
there is low probability that an mse will expand the space between your eyes, if you research anatomy or just watch Ronald's video on "how the mse works" you will see that it only affects bones under the eyes. So unless you have a maxilla that is placed so high it sets between your eyes (which is anatomically impossible unless you had a huge deformation), you should be good, but check with your local orthodontist too, and look up the orthotropics website and their map of orthotropists around the world.
I think you are starting to remind me of the fox whose tail was bitten off at this point. I beleive that a slight toothborne expansion with habit correction firstly would make the results stable, because the tongue would be the retainer. That's the bigger problem with toothborne orthodontics imo rather than the moving itself.
"the tongue would be the retainer" exactly
You just confirmed what I was always thinking! Nasal breathing is life iteself period!! Bone borne expansion baby let’s go!!
Dude, when are you becoming an orthodontist?
Well then you have people who have tried it for 12 months posting befor and after information videos etc. Good research but I guess the people who have tried speak louder than that!
I have a posterior open bite. Can mewing help
Damn, I just got the DNA
Me too.
@@TytonidaeBingo should I keep wearing it?
@@kuhcena2997 well you can't get a refund
@Septime I feel you man
Did you decide to keep wearing it?
Hey Ronald, couple questions
1. have you stopped your blog?
2. are you still happy with your MSE treatment? would you recommend it if i’m
primarily interested in forward growth (MSE + Face Mask). would also like some more prominent zygos.
3. Have you looked at Kieran’s Dowden Appliance? (some kind of new facepuller)
does this include the vivos? they claim that it expands 3 dimensionally.
Ron what do you think about gokhale method for posture?
How can we explain he increased the mass of his maxilla by 6pennies weight then ?
Do you know about the ALF appliance?