Mr Splatoon aka Arthars? If I remember correctly all streamers started to hide their tools cause of him streaming to 5k viewers with triggers and so on.
@@Vaeyz what are you talking about? when tf did arthars ever use splatoon lmfao, all he had was act and a voice trigger for trick attack or useless stuff
What i honestly found the funniest about this whole debacle was Arthars threatening people with going straight to Yoshi-P next fanfest and showing him clips of people using AM. Only one of two things are gonna happen if he really goes through with that. Either he just removes the option to change markers mid-fight Or what i think would be the funniest outcome: He just bans Arthars himself for showing them to him and a patch later he adds AM as an official feature.
They won't block markers from being added / removed mid fight, considering if they did that then the whole marker system might as well be removed. Waymarks got that treatment because it doesn't really matter that the waymarks get changed midpull or not but are still useful to have from the start. Arthars being banned and them adding it would be pretty funny though
@@cheshireyordle9586 You missed my point. "If they block *normal markers* from being applied mid-fight, they might as well remove them entirely from the game since it's the only place they're used". Better?
Apparently having a conversation on something you're passionate about implies that it's the biggest problem in your life. Everything sounds more serious online than it actually is, most people are just having a conversation on am, it's really not that big of a deal
@@skcans This isn't "having a conversation", it's "throwing a Twitter tantrum". The guy wrote a whole thread where he's malding about AM and about how he's gonna go pester Yoshi P in a Fanfest, show him vids with AM (like Yoshi P didn't already know about AM), and hoping he bans them on the spot or stops making ultimates or whatever. So Arthars can then say to his "so-called" friends he doesn't respect them anymore?
Again i rlly don't think Arthars of all people has very little ground to grandstand about any kinda plugin/mods.... devs seeing his dsr clear vod with him using triggers gives him some kinda false ideal hes above being banned or punished?
oh yeah, im the designated marker for TOP for my static, it was miserable as fuck, i hated that phase with a passion lol. my static was headstrong in not using automarkers which is fine, and yet no one was willing to step up so I as the fucking melee dps had to, which is the problem, it expects you to put the burden on 1-2 players to solve the entire mechanic for the whole group. you wont think p5 sucks if you use AM and are not the person who has to mark people. And when I fk up during p5 during and after the dodges people get upset (understandably cause its late as fk in the fight) but it feels shitty as hell. Mechanic is miserable, with how its designed and how late it is into the fight. P5 is not a good fight design if it heavily pushes all the burden on 1-2 people or on using automarker, especially for randos. Every PF would have to have at least 1-2 players who know how to mark during a shitty phase and that's unrealistic.
this is exactly it, in our static obviously the healer marker/caller (jeez I can't even imagine how miserable this must be as meele LOL, cuz you're basically marking during your 2m window if I recall correctly? xD) but EVEN as a person not marking, having the feeling that our healer might mess it up again or get clipped by bs just felt like sht. Even after the 5th clear when I knew he likely will get it right it just felt miserable to be anxious about doing everything correctly as a player while being at the mercy of 1, doing sth which is miserable for him to begin with I hella enjoyed PF with AM cause everybody had the same responsibilties, and even if we would fail you saw it coming from a mile away if someone was going wrong. It just felt way more enjoyable in itself and made me go from dreading reclears to actively sitting in PF to clear TOP for fun. Ended up with 20+ clears total in the end While most people crying here about "you bad" are just people who prob couldn't even get to p5 if they wanted to
@@Bankai90 yep the 2m window happens there. yeah i bet the people who are saying "you bad" probably has never done the marking themselves or their group probably used AM. And agreed PF was more fun cuz I exactly did not have to mark people. I was always so extra stressed during P5 in my static lol. It did get easier but at the start it was absolutely miserable.
@@MorpheusCh at that point you should quit your static, when the group collectively asked and even worse case, burden you with such task, idk if you should call that a static anymore, more like slaving you
@@luckytanuki5449the fact that the devs put it into PF means it's meant for PF. You are already wrong. What is special about a static? One guy will auto mark anyway. Also he is right that Athas can't say shit about AM when he and his group uses it along with all on the world to first. Ultimate is nothing exclusive, only people who can't find value in any other aspect of their life try to pretend it is. Coming from someone who cleared all ults.
@@luckytanuki5449 why would you care how people do it tho? Why should the fight be gatekept behind having a static? I guarantee you even with AM any fight will still be way harder to do in PF than with a static, so it's not like they are making the fight easy. They are just making it doable. I am really confused by the gatekeeping.
@@luckytanuki5449 but isn't that going to produce idiots like req-cat who only cares about how good your parse is as "Skill level" instead of how good the players like xenos and arthars that adapted to the fight?
Random side note why do we have all these random shity sounds from chat when there is any time there is a discussion about a more serieus topic. Good lord the random meme sounds every 20 seconds is really anoying.
Yeah it's becoming a bit too much. It was funny when it was a random fart noise or Discord sound alert that trolled everyone into checking their DMs once every 5/10 minutes or so. But it's not funny any more.
@@MaakaSakuranbo open your no AM pf. Again, if people feel so strongly against AM. The pf's will fill faster than AM groups. Yet again. I bet if you would be a PF player or would've done TOP. You would understand why AM was used there. So when you're in a static you don't even need AM since you're in voice.
@@MaakaSakuranbo You don't have to, if you are miserable someone is using one, you can find another party without one. Don't enter or leave at the sign of it. No one is forcing you to be in this exact party. Leave, say it to them why, they will probably out, blacklist you, so you will never be in the same party as them ever again. repf, and move on. But hey, you can blacklist them too. So you won't be in the same party that makes you miserable by using AM ever again.
@@Bankai90Honestly that's my biggest gripes with Arthars' entire tantrum; in a follow up reply he literally admits that JP does not PF [TOP], he has no frame of reference for progging without callouts and comms between party members. Also personal triggers (ribbide ribbide ribbide) on top of that and it's genuinely mind blowing he thinks he has a high horse to be on here. The only fight I feel like needs the help is TOP, purely because you can't adjust around people who don't understand the mechanic.
Xeno should mute his mic audio to stream every once in a while, and keep recording audio, and then give us RUclips frogs kissies instead of Twitch chat.
The only reason Arthars mentioned Mare is because of how carefree people throw that shit around in search info or their adventurer plates. The maker of the plugin even said to be discrete about it but everywhere you go you can see people with (Mare Lamentorum) on their character. I don't agree with a lot he said but I can understand where he's coming from since waving around the AM and ML isn't exactly discrete, more like flaunting it, at this point.
I made Mare and yes I agree, people are idiots putting it everywhere. But at this point I also don't believe anymore that SE doesn't know about it. They just don't care/do anything about it. We will see what DT will bring so enjoy it as long as it lasts, I guess.
@@rootdarkarchon I haven't exactly seen Square Enix acting on modding and plugin accusations unless they're explicitly mentioned or recorded. Hell, in some cases they even require multiple pieces of evidence to prove botting. As Mare Lamentorum is an auto-translate term, players have some defence in feigning ignorance which is actually a viable argument, even if SE has very little reason to believe it. It's taking advantage of the support staff's neutrality and good faith by using an in-game feature that could be, under certain (if not extremely rare) circumstances, used legitimately.
So I'm the guy who Arthars is talking to, and I realized what I said was fucking stupid. I was praying that this shit would just blow over and people will forget. But now Xemes did a video showing that discussion, please, I'm sorry, I'm fucking stupid. Please do not flame me. Edit: I lack self confidence, something to work on in the future.
Aw man, don't apologize and don't deprecate yourself like this. You had an opinion and you wrote about it, if someone flames you about it then you shouldn't give a flying fk. It's not like every other opinion on Twitter is written after meticulous research and is infallible.
Don't fold, you were right about some things. Arthars would never admit he's wrong even if the whole community including Yoshi-P called him out on it. If only the world first raiders did Ultimate's like Arthars wants they'd hit a point where they wouldn't be able to justify making them anymore. About 20% of players do the content currently, that's why they keep making it. It's a spectacle and enough people do it to justify it, if only 1-5% did it like Arthars wants we'd be lucky to even get 1 an expac. Arthars only attacks AM and PF because he wants less people clearing it, he wants to feel more special. He doesn't really care about 3rd party like he makes it out, he uses things like ACT and Triggers and Alexander, he didn't plan out any of his arguments at all that's why he flip-flops around so much about everything. It'd be hilarious if he somehow got all 3rd party banned because he'd ruin the game for himself, not just others. Whenever he's on something like MogTalk he inadvertently lets his real opinions out and you can tell how he really feels when he's able to talk down to people about it. He's super weirdly elitist about hard content, it doesn't even make sense.
everyone is allow to have an opinion. no matter how unbelieveable stupid and right out insane they are. i still cant believe you pissed arthars so badly to this point. is amazing
AM is not too big a deal for me, my only issue with it is how reliant people are on the plugin. i've seen people ask for it in both ucob and dsr for lightning, looking at your debuff isn't difficult
So, I work at a convenience store. Our policy for theft is that we cannot chase the person stealing. We essentially do not move if we see someone doing it. I don't care if people steal from the store, it doesn't hurt my bank account. However, if we do see someone stealing we have to call the police. Ideally, since we can't stop people from stealing, we prefer they do it in a way that we don't see it so I don't have to call the cops and go through all that trouble. I feel the same way about advertising use of mods. Use it if you want, but don't be an ass about it knowing nothing will be done about it.
before TOP came out I saw some people complaining how formalized the xiv tradition of partitioning responsibilities by role or light party assignment etc (e.g. each tank gets one of two possible patterns, each healer gets one of two possible patterns, etc). then TOP comes out, themed around priority systems and less guarantees on which role gets what, and the feedback is ”no not like that”
I mean DSR has plenty of mechanics where anyone can get any mechanic and people find that fight to be just fine so yeah TOP was a not like that moment. Doesn't mean people were going back on what they said 🤷🏾♀️
Automarkers suck, I'll agree that things like Dynamis stacks aren't great mechanics, but any take that normalizes them more will just make their usage bleed into everything else. If people feel like it's "accepted", you'll just start seeing automarkers used for random stuff like Lightning debuffs in ults, at which point it even bleeds into the gameplay of people who aren't playing with third party, because it affects everyone in the group. Give third party raiders an inch and they'll just start pushing the envelope more into why the next DBM-level addon they like is "actually just QoL, because X is a bad mechanic".
The correct solution would be to go to stuff like p5 top and making it more visually clear. But SE can't do that because then everyone who did it before the change will whine about it until the heat death of the universe. So the best SE can do is to take notes to not create situations that incentivse AM in the future. Currently the easiest to use AM plugin comes with a ton of presets for things that people never use. Wrath and DotH markers, lightning markers for Nael, Looper markers. A ton of stuff. But even though it's just one click away people don't use them because there's no need to - mechanics are fine the way they are. AM is currently STUPIDLY EASY to set up, yet it's only used on Titan, P5 TOP and sometimes Wroth. There's next to no AM usage elsewhere in ultimates and absolutely nothing below ults. People who truly want to cheat don't give a shit about AM because they already run zoomhack, cactbot and splatoon which gives them so much of an advantage that AM is almost redundant. People who just run AM run it to fix janky crap that ruins otherwise fun fights.
This has been the case since Stormblood for UwU, it wasn't necessary nor used or considered for TEA, for DSR I've cleared it in PF without as well and have seen groups that don't rely on it for Wroth. It wasn't considered nor used for groups doing any of the raids for savage (other than levin a while later) nor EX trials, I'm not dismissing the possibility of this becoming an issue in the future but as it has proven with time, it hasn't been the case overall. I would prefer not seeing it or having people rely on it less but I'd prefer if they bothered making stuff like that more visually obvious, there isn't a good reason as to why they don't make mechanics just a little bit more visually clear, it could be a buff on the side that shows the numbers of dynamis stacks or underneath your character, anything would have been better than nothing at all.
"NOOOO BUT PF AND WORLD FIRST RAIDERS NEED CHEATS AND AUTOMARKERS TO CLEAR FIGHTS" Sounds like both PF and World First raiders are both getting clears easier than they should be. It's cheating, and anyone saying otherwise, including Xeems, is coping super hard. Yes, none of the world first clears with cheats matter. Or at least it's watered down. I don't think he's ever had to deal with the integrity of competition being fucked up and doesn't play any competitive games. No one looks at clears and respects having to use shit that solves mechanics for you or think for you. No one maybe outside of the World First raiders that all use them because they all cope with each other on the same playing field. And using "OH BUT YOU CAN TALK TO PEOPLE ON DISCORD FOR CALL OUTS, IS THAT THIRD PARTY?" Is a stupid argument that's been used in the past because the SKILL IS STILL COMING FROM A HUMAN BEING, NOT A MACHINE. This is as out of touch as when he was saying "Savage is midcore". No bro you've been doing ultimates for fucking years and been playing the game for a decade. Everything will get easier for you only and you will lose connection with even the above average player.
Yo Leo, is there a way for you to split Xeno's mic audio from Twitch chat's audio? It would be easier to watch his vods WITHOUT all the crazy sound effects from chat, especially with topics where he's talking in depth about something.
Even the statics that don't use AM, don't have all their players learn a priority system for Sigma and Omega trio and have all 8 players solve it. One gamer who can react quickly will be the one to mark people instead of using a program. THAT person understands the intricacies of the mechanics, the other 7 don't necessarily do just because they cleared without it.
I'll be honest, doing gaols without automarkers isn't hard and if automarking gets banned or countermeasured against, the entire raiding community is gonna be absolutely stunned how easy the proper way to do Gaols was the entire time.
The community tends to overcomplicate things I couldn't understand divebombs in T9 (When it was current) for the longest time because guides made it sound super complicated, but then a friend brought me into the fight, got to that point and resolved it. All I could think was "Wait, this shit was *THAT* easy this whole time?!"
@@Feast_ in T9's case people wanted to gatekeep knowledge to give themselves raid position security. This was a very real thing with varying levels of effectiveness. Most of the time it didn't work. In groups of newer players however...
It's all about practice really. When you first do party synergy, you think it is impossibly hard. But do it 1000 times and you can react to it in a second. It's exactly the same with TOP p5. Practice it enough and you will be able to recognise debuffs on the party list instantly, and get used to prios and flexing easily.
Gaols is so fucking easy without AM. People will watch Tessan's guide and literally ignore the macro provided in the video to do gaols without AM. It takes 10 seconds to make.
My static did P5 just fine without automarkers, am I better than anyone who used it? Hell no, my raid leader called out the far world and fist baits in sigma and the far world baits in omega (plus someone else called monitor for the first part of omega). There was almost no thought needed from my part and the only thing we got from not using AM was making my raid leader's life worse. I'm a bit biased because I really don't do PF and don't care much about the state of it but I'm never gonna judge anyone for using AM on TOP, it's just not worth the stress.
That's literally the problem. Everyone can tell you add-ons make your life easier, that's why half of the people defend them and why the other half hates them. They don't necessarily 'play the game" for you (right now), but they increase the number of things you can track and do. Anything that affects and reduces the mental stack/cognitive load is a net plus, but it's also a hack/cheat in essence if others can't use it (eg. console players, PC players with worse systems, etc.) thus making the competition unequal/unfair. It's also an arms race to the bottom as can be seen in WoW. People get used to having these "minor conveniences" and every year they push further for more convenience here, less hassle there, some assistance with rotation over there, another automation on the other side. It never stops. Worse even, because add-ons exist and impact the difficulty directly, devs will be pressured into making even harder fights, taking into account these add-ons, which in turn makes content even more difficult, to the point it will no longer be doable without them. Once you open Pandora's box of add-ons, you can't simply close it. It's an MMO with many moving parts and once it's in, taking it out and re-training the community becomes impossible. Add-ons is one of those few cases where the answer is black and white. you either have them, or you don't. End of discussion. Once you say yes, you can't change your mind. Show me a Mythic Raider in WoW that doesn't use add-ons, and I will show you a liar.
I'll explain you the issue. Now go and clear again with your static without discord. See how shitty that becomes suddenly. The main reason AM is used in TOP is cuz in voice u can easily callout north/south, the whole AM debacle isn't even about the "difficult" part of TOP. It is about the "easy" part which has no concise placement for at least 2 players. If they would've given 2 people more debuffs and thus a defined placement for north/south, making the mechanic "harder" people wouldn't even use AM in entire P5. You're simply going to AM so you don't have to be in voice, and pf will always choose this. And yea, then it all starts going a bit too far afterwards. With even slightly better design for Omega we would not have this entire AM debacle lol
Tbh I don't even get this logic of "I was carried by raid leader cause they called it" like bruh it's a fucking team game of course you're supposed to help each other
@@GoodLosertjo Also that Raid leader isn't a 100% perfect machine, and good lord if you are any good at the game (specially in TOP) you should be learning to do/call the mech yourself as well and using raid lead as confirmation you read it correctly.
My argument for auto markers has always been that it's such a dumb thing to get upset about. You could have one person get really fucking cracked at marking people with mouseover macros, and effectively be an automarker that's capable of making mistakes. You know why I have that stance? *Because that's what I fucking did.* The other 7 people in the raid might as well have had an automarker because me putting signs over people's heads is what told them what to do. I did vocal callouts for sigma and full enemy signs for omega (sans the marks for the tethers in the second round). Functionally, it's no different. The issue isn't automarkers existing. The issue is the fight being designed in such a way that automarker trivializes a phase.
Arthars generally has horrible takes in regards to 14. I'd be fine if they removed player marking in combat if they adjusted some ultimate mechanics to compensate, either slightly less random (ie. Dynamis stacks), or clearer non-party list markers. Having a prio order is fine, but it shouldn't end up in a situation where you can't develop a reliable strat without some assigned 3rd party decision maker .
What I'm sort of 'worried' about is this. They removed the ability to change arena markers because the TEA world first team used a 3th party tool for trines, so what's stopping them from doing the same to overhead markers? To me, it honestly feels like something they would have done years ago. I'm very surprised that they haven't done it yet.
Personal markers can be replaced with a plugin typing out personal assignments in party chat and as a GM they would never be able to tell if it isn't just a real player typing, it's a complete non-starter
It's already out of control with people not being able to do TOP transition, dynamis delta or DSR thunders without a marker over their head. I suppose looking at party list debuff too hard for pf ppl as well. Imho allowing it to exist in the end just lowers the skillset needed to clear the fight. It's not like these mechanics are impossible to do without. But noone even wants to try. When we tried to pf one guy to do our no am wroth strat in DSR people were on most part mocking the strat, laughing or leaving. Or even worse you set a pf to do stuff without AM but some guy will join and still activate it mid fight. Actually insane. And I saw lately it's leaking into the savage fights as well, AM on P9S soon pf standard?
I can see where both of Xeems and Arthars is coming from. I don't think Xeno wants 3rd party progrem to go crazy or be normalized. My guess is that Xeno wants the raid to desinged in a way that doesn't require crazy skill or addons
It's a mmorpg. No fight period should ever require either of those. Anytime a fight can only be cleared by the top 1 percent of players. It's a badly designed fight imo.
It will never work. As soon as addons are normalized people will start crying that content is to easy. Raising the difficulty until we are in the same place as WoW in which addons are a requirement. I’m not really brothered by people cheating but having them crying content is to easy is the dumbest shit ever in my option…
@@LuminateTheWorlddepends on the content xd. I agree that that shouldn’t happen with savage but ultima is supposed to be for the 1%. Not cuz the dev team wanted it but cuz the people asked for that 1% challenge.
I think auto markers are a huge problem. Right now it may not seem so, but as it's usage becomes normalized, it'll start to become the norm and a requirement. See how fucking bloated and absurd WOW raids are nowadays due to people getting more and more used with addons that would trevialize more and more of game mechanics, making the developers run an arms race against addons, where in the end the fights get insanely hard, too complicated, to a point that they're IMPOSSIBLE to play without addons/wakauras. Don't let this kind of shit happen to FFXIV.
@@OldManInternetI’ve played both games and I feel iffy even having ACT up. I want to and enjoy playing ff14 in large part because i can play and learn fights and raid without having constant alerts and weakauras covering my screen. It’s on me to memorise and read the fight, not 5 alerts.
idk why people think AM is some kind of automatic totem dispenser bc it's just not. Being in enough pfs with and without AM in the fights that typically use it will clearly tell you
right and wrong. Yes, having AM doesn't automatically clear the fight for you if you cant even get to the part where you need to use AM, which is P5. Without AM, some people couldn't even clear P5, so that's what is wrong with your statement.
@@ampur2 for P5 is it for death or wrath? For wrath : how dumb can you be just for not looking your own debuff? For death : I can see why if they are doing DOTH with full adjust and not the conga line, I tried first like that and it was miserable and then we changed to the line to clear all of this mess
@@xehant7319 I think he's talking about TOP's P5, not DSR one. For WOTH & DOTH, because the fight is well designed, you don't need to, the game already puts on your head a bright thing telling you what to do. For DSR's Wroth of flames, i'd say that automarkers in PF's are more an additionnal security, cause if you were doing the fight via a group & vocal, you could easily warn someone who's not going to the correct spot considering the prio system.
28:45 theres actually a "Tactic" in WoW for the naxxramas raid similar to this strat. during the "Heigan the unclean" fight. known as "The Safety Dance" at the start of the fight you'd ask your raid "Who knows how to dance?" and the guys who say no you get them to just stand outside the boss fight and not even participate.. eventually getting killed by the bosses Damage. whilst players who do know "How to dance" fight the boss. the dance is litterally just avoiding aoe damage in a pattern but requires pretty quick movement.
I dont agree with Xeno about this being wrong when company ban someone for using something what is not allowed and then added to the game, it's not wrong for banning players for using something what is not allowed but the same time adding it to the game because it would be helpful for players. What will happen if squarenix would not ban those players would give wave of another players openly using mods what are clearly wrong and harmful to the game, crying why they get banned when other person don't.
I haven't done ToP myself, I saw the world race and that was about it. I don't remember what P5 was. I kinda wish that Xeno would explain how the mechanic works and why AM (in PF) is mandatory, at least from his perspective.
P5 of TOP is just a series of three trio mechanics -- Delta, Sigma, and Omega. You don't need AM for Delta, but it's basically required for Sigma and Omega because everyone in the party has to position in incredibly precise spots for the mechanics to resolve correctly, and each person's respective spot is determined by following a fairly dense mechanical logic. So world prog groups would designate one or two people to mark players and you would use those marks to determine your spots. AM just automates that process.
There is are 2 parts that cause an issue to where people will use auto markers. There is a point in sigma where the party will split into 2 groups. One group of 3 and one group of 5. The group of 3 cannot have hello near or far as well and the two people taking the beams need to have at least 1 stack of dynamis. After sigma everyone must have 1 or 2 stacks of dynamis. During omega 4 people are marked. 2 far and 2 nears. There is also 2 baited aoes that are required to be taken by 2 people who do not have the first far or near going off and already have 2 stacks as everyone needs 2 stacks after the 3rd set of jumps (2 people with have 3) . Another issue that may happen is that if you have the delayed far or near and you already have 2 stacks of dynamis you need to take the baited aoe to avoid getting 3 stacks since your debuff later will give you the 3 you need. Vice versa if you have delayed far or near and you have 1 stack you must not take the baited aoe so that you have 2 stacks and end with 3 after your debuff goes off. Again So that going into the final set. 2 people have 3 stacks (and no near or far debuff) and everyone else has 2 stacks
so in P5 (after delta) your position during the mechanic matters base on the number of stack of dynamis that you have. for example. 1 player who has no static of dynamis will go towards female omega. and 2 player who also has 1 stack of dynamis will also go to omega female along side the person who has no stack. here the proble,. there are 5 people in totall who has 1 stack of dynamis. how do you know that you're the person who goes to omega female because you have 1 stack, but the other people also has one. so static make a priority for this mechanic. but PF does not have any of that. the AM will auto mark everyone and you simply follow the rule. AM completely remove the extra dificulty of thinking where to go/stand base on the amount of stack you have. you simply ignored all of this and follow the AM. making p5 way easier
if they want people to stop using noclippy/alex, then they should fix the problem in the first place instead of spending their time and energy telling people not to use it, no matter how janky and messed up their coding is. it's their problem as a developer, and it's hindering players. also remember when arthars uses cactbot? ribide ribide? yeah, fucking hypocrite.
@@DantoriusD it's living dead but being pronounced in japanese, but idk why he uses it for in DSR. there's also "twitch prime" but again idk what mechanic he uses it for in DSR. what i know is he used it on DSR world race
i would actually be so happy if they did it... playing from south america to na servers blows dicks and i REQUIRE alex/noclippy to raid as lord intended the gameplay loop
From a perspective of someone who doesn't know coding. Alexander is straight up black magic voodoo shit like what do you mean I can play like I have low ping without low ping?
I cleared DSR and TOP within a month of release, no AM. DSR is better designed but it's boring. I like TOP a lot but p5 dynamis Omega is really bad and should be never done again. Sigma is a very slow mechanic and you can do it no problem with a simple priority system by role and group. You dont need AM for sigma. Omega is far, far too busy and quick to dicern where you need to go for the first pass. I'm my opinion, the developers should just automark players for responsibilities during fast, complex mechanics. Doing this, you can make players perform more and you can design the mechanics to execute faster whilst getting rid of AMs significance.
So how many people here have taken the time to read about the logic behind Dynamis Sigma and Omega? It's not hard to understand but I'm willing to bet a vast majority of the players here haven't even tried solely because AM exists. There's no way anyone's gonna convince me otherwise. The mechanics suck in that they lack visual clarity (looking at a debuff bar when you want to look at the fight absolutely sucks and this applies to Wroth Flames too), I'm not arguing that. But there's a pretty big difference between understanding the mechanic even if it's only 1 person or 2 marking other players, and entirely removing the mental stack by turning the mechanic into basically fixed positions based off the marker on your head that's placed automatically.
i think arthars main point is that am is a slippery slope now its seen as acceptable behaviour for top pf but what if it does not end there what if one day god forbid it fucking bleeds into savage i know its a meme but theres this video of people using am in p9s limitcut which is dumb af i know but the point is when the day comes where the community is okay with using am for savage and it becomes the norm the majority will opt to join pfs with am in the description and the people who want to do it without and actually learn how to do mechanics are shit out of luck and this game will be like wow i know its hyperbole but it could happen
@@coaster1235 Because the prio is pretty easy to adjust to, you only have so many places you can go, AM tends to only get used as the amount of variance for where players can adjust and time to do it goes down. If it was just about making the fight brain dead AM would be used in phases 2, 3, and 5 of DSR and yet it's only used in P6. It's not really clear cut when AM will become popular for a mechanic but aside from TOP, PF can usually do okay without it.
Can’t even call it a hyperbole. There’s already comments here that say “just make your own no AM groups because it’s normal to have AM” It’s not a stretch to see that becoming “just make your own no AM groups for savage because it’s normal to have AM” Eventually it becomes wow of “what the hell are you doing not using bigwigs/dbm?”
If you give combat addons an inch then they will take a mile and the game will become WoW where they are expected, but worse since two whole playerbases can't use them if they wanted to.
For some reason people can't accept that mods would ruin FF14 if they became commonplace like they did in WoW. They make dishonest arguments about the community and how the games are different rather than engaging in common sense.
This is exactly why the plugin injection Dalamud has the Plugin Browser, and why they've actively been making their rules stricter over the years. They don't block unauthorized plugins outright because it stifles mod development, but at the same time they don't list any plugins that violate the terms of service more explicitly. Glamourer violates ToS as it bypasses Fantasia and certain glamour restrictions. And most combat plugins like the zoom hack offer a blatantly unfair advantage with no "accessibility" justification.
This is such a dishonest take. WoW addons are limited by the API that Blizzard has given players access to and they have many times changed what is or isn't allowed. If anything mods in FF14 will be worse because its not limited to the API. Most mods used by people are cosmetic or QOL stuff. I didnt know the mod I use to fix my viera ear physics because SQEX is still developing for a shit console so anything above 60 FPS get physics turned off is cheating. You want to be offended so badly that its funny.
For my UWU clear in PF, we did manual markers. We designated a player with a number and then made a macro to make that number appear during gaols. So we would see who has the gaols marker, pop that macro, smaller number close to Titan, larger number furthest away. It had a few more steps but got the job done.
Same, our priority was both tanks had circle (zero), and everyone else was assigned numbers from 1 to 6 (triangle was 6, like an up arrow, since enemy signs only went up to 5 at the time). Gaols went out, press the button, and you're in front middle or back depending on your ordering. Literally the same thing as automarker or an ACT callout plugin.
You can also just do it like the automarker itself does it. Make a priority list and play it. Everyone who is getting a gaol gets a yellow circle around them. If you have one you run forward. Melees are usually front. Let's say you are reaper, and your co-melee is dragoon. Reaper always has higher priority. So if you are reaper and you see the tank running with you, you are two. If also the other melee is running with you, you are still two. And the dragoon is 3. and in the worst case, just spontaneously adjust. It's really not that difficult. You have plenty of time if you know what you are doing.
I think personally, I feel like at the end of the day it really doesn't matter, and you're just defining your own experience. Who uses and doesn't use mods to clear a fight really isn't impacting your personal experience, Imho. However, I do think with some mods like Noclippy, or things that just fix Potions/Sprint, that should just be baseline in the game. There's literally no value to not having them turned on and they just make the game a universally better experience. I've been doing deep dungeon prog, and trying to adapt to my Healing Potions input logic being so different then every other ability after using Redirect for DPS potions/Sprint for so long is the most obnoxious shit to me. Losing 5 hours of progress because xd you pressed your potion 0.2 too soon is just awful design.
neither a fan or hater of arthars. but isnt his problem is that people are advertising AM so openly in PF instead of AM itself? i thought thats what this whole thing was
Yeah, a couple days ago Arthars said on stream Xeno reacted out of context but at the end of the day both him and Arthars think AM is cheating which is Arthars' main point.
@@teo1120 yea, iread a few of the tweets and immediately realised that he have "no issue" with cheating. He only have an issue if it is so openly advertised/plastered in pf description
Have people cleared TOP in PF without P5 auto markers and not being in discord? I don’t think it’s possible without talking in discord, unless every player has gotten every possible pattern and they know what to do just by looking, highly unlikely though.
lol easy solution is SE implements anti cheat, but probably with the way the game is coded, it would be a huge rewrite which wouldn’t be in budget, plus they’d lose most of the playerbase (character mods).
ye 90% of ppl who would get hit with anticheat aren't even raiders to begin with. Ye go get that Miqote permabanned for a tattoo or the other guy for a beardmod. Wonder how the outrage would be if people lose their houses and 5-10year+ accounts permanently with the introduction of anti cheat. People think that AM is the deciding factor if people would clear ultimates are coping hard. These are all good players and AM is a minor factor for people who want to clear ults. It would simply kill PF, enforce statics and get rid of prob more than half of the RP scene
Idc about anti cheat all this drama just gonna make automarkers in the game with a patch. I’m sure most of these mods will just be added in base game eventually
Unless it’s a competition with some form of reward I 100% couldn’t care less what add-one you use if the groups fine with it. People buy clears so I genuinely don’t see outside of personal accomplishment why it matters.
@@cobbiie It's called pushing the envelope. The fact people think it is proves my point. If you use add-ons for fighting you're cheating. It's that simple.
@@cobbiie My “attitude” is not caring what a group collectively agrees is fine and doing it so long as it’s not in a competitive setting (rewards, fame, etc). It’s absolutely cheating but it’s also been around for ages. Unless the Devs decide to go against it, it isn’t my job to police other people’s play. Fail to see how that’s “bad attitude”.
arthars going on about how ultimates are his fav content and then acting like he's going to tell Yoshi P about AM (as if he doesn't already know about it) who then might be so disappointed about the use of AM that he then stops making his supposed fav content has to be one of the most smooth-brain, low IQ takes I have ever seen regarding this game.
Titan gaols is doable without AM. It is also failable even with AM. It's one of the most stupidly designed mechanics in the game. I'd rather they fix the mechanic than ban AM.
@@fabolousjada5070 Great example of a comment that has nothing to do with what I said. But I'll humor you: console players also benefit from AM so your argument is useless. In fact, your comment makes it seem like you have never done uwu, especially not in pf.
I know this is way late cause i just came across this video but does everyone forget that console exists? That is why they don’t want to be okay with add-ons because SE does not want console players to be pushed out of doing content when players start saying “must have this and that add-on”. SE HAS to beat all content without add-ons because console players have to be able to do content without add-ons. Not saying that add-ons are bad but the difference is that PC players have a choice to use them or not…console does not have that choice.
(Long post warning) I see a lot of people including Xeno say you either use AM or make 1-2 people mark everyone else, but that is not correct. Making 1-2 people have that much responsibility is a bad solution and it's just a bandaid that world proggers came up with in order to prog the fight as fast as possible. Like Xeno said, that would be miserable for those 1-2 people. Instead, you can either do self-mark macro strat, or body language + prio system or mix of both to do TOP p5 with zero voice comms. Debuffs for sigma and omega appear at the very start of the mechanic, and the game gives you enough time to flex to different locations and do lineups to signify the order. There are even ways to assign the dynamis stacks by having people flex positions during delta. The reality is that pf would rather not waste time learning how to do the fight properly, and the talk about "bad design" is a reasoning to justify why they don't want to waste time. After all, who decided that having to read party list debuffs and flexing prios is a bad design in MMOs? Xeno said TOP is a horribly designed fight so many times in the video, but when you look for actual reasoning on why it's a bad design, he names bugs, dps checks, not being fun to prog and 1 person marking everyone else. None of that has anything to do with the actual mechanic in p5 (except for 1 person marking but that's just a bad solution). The point is, "bad design" is arbitrary and often just another way of saying "too hard". For example, from my point of view, having to look at M/F, eye, tether and playstation in party synergy is no different than having to look at party list for debuffs, and having to look at people for body language. Now to be fair, I do think there is one actual bad design in the game, and that is the fact that you cannot hard-fix the party list as a team because you are always at the top. But I never hear reasonings like this when people say "bad design". Case in point, I used to think party synergy is impossibly hard, but now I can do it in a second due to practice. P5 will be exactly the same just like literally anything else in this game, if people only gave it a chance without AM. Except that will increase prog time by several months... and suddenly TOP p5 is bad design. People come to recognise and react to tells and debuffs in this game instantly, but for some reason that is not going to happen in p5? I don't buy that at all. Same thing with learning non-AM strats - people can spreadsheet and memorise their GCDs for the entire fight, but they can't learn a slightly modified strat? There is no way that is true. Saying AMs are virtually mandatory sets a bad precedent. In principle, there is no difference between using AM for TOP p5 and using AM for expert roulette mechanics. It's just based on what the majority thinks "bad design" is. And since AM forces the markers on everyone rather than only appearing on the user's screen, it hard caps the mechanic ceiling for everyone based on AM user's opinion of the fight. In other words, it cheapens the experience for someone else who would rather do the mechanic themselves. Not only that, but I'd argue it also robs the opportunity of the progger to overcome a difficult mechanic. This is not a good way forward for the game overall - it will lead to one person thinking you don't need any markers period, and another thinking you need AMs for every mechanic and they're incompatible because AMs just force markers on everyone. Lastly, if done without AM, TOP is probably the hardest fight in the game. But the entire point of an ultimate is to be the hardest content in the game, an aspirational content. If the community looks at a difficult fight and arbitrarily decides that it's too hard / unfun so making it easier is justified - then what is the point of making difficult fights in the first place? Now to play devil's advocate - I heard that Gordias was too difficult and it killed the raiding scene back in the day. So if we're talking about accessibility, then I could see the argument there. But even in that case, I would argue the healthy solution isn't to dumb the fight down, but to learn better strats as a community and become better players. Encourage players to overcome a mechanic that is too hard in an aspirational content, instead of calling it "bad design" and forcing it to be easier just so they can clear it. To me that is losing a lot of the journey to reach the destination. But obviously all of this is subjective That being said, everything Xeno said in the video last year came true about AM becoming mandatory in pf. But you have to wonder how much of that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. AMs are self-perpetuating. Once people start using them, the more people become reliant on them and the less they know the actual mechanics. And because less people know the mechanics, the more pf will come to rely on AMs. TL;DR fundamentally disagree with Xeno saying you have to use AM or make 1-2 people mark everyone else in p5. But it's all subjective and he is right about many things too
The problem is that it gives a massive advantage to those in statics. That’s what makes it bad design. Yeah, you can do a vastly harder strategy, but those in statics have a massive advantage as they can consistently have someone mark everyone. AM is pfs solution to put themselves on statics levels of consistency. I don’t like automarkers, and would rather they not be there, but ultimately, pf will resort to any solutions to even the playing field.
you say this cause you haven't even done p5 nor learned the mechanic. Party syngery, p3, monitors are COMPLETELY different than Omega and esp pt2 without voicechat. You type so much, just like most people. Out of lack of knowledge and experience. You basically talk about sth you have no clue about. You do not give 1 person the responsibility to ease the mech on 7 others. It's 1 person doing because even 2 people who aren't in sync (as in voice) have a high chance to mess it up for each other. Go clear TOP without AM and NO voicechat. I wonder if you would get this done before 2026.
21:35 About shout out to the mods If I were in the shoes of SE, that would be a stupid idea because "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you" It will be like an act of admission of mods making the game better than them and will make the players to demand more aggressively the implementation of mods ingame not just hoping the mod will become first party tool.
Perhaps the only devs that 'test' the fights should be ones that didn't work on the fight, don't know the mechanics and play as many different jobs as possible across 2 or 3 groups without voice chat, to test if it is doable by strangers in PF.
That is exactly how I felt. That TOP became genuinely enjoyable due to AM. I would've cleared the fight 10x+ less if it wouldn't be for AM. It was very fun to clear and help people clear on patch in PF. From so many statics I've been it, there always seem to be a real hate for PF or pf players almost to absurd levels. So I guess a lot of hate also comes from here. Noone can convince me that TOP is "easier" with AM than it is in a static in discord with voice. I've 10 clears with my static. So if you think so better bring some real argument besides "you bad".
I was talking about this TOP P5 issue with my static a little while ago. I think if they made the Dynamis stacks have a visual effect on your character model it would significantly reduce the need for the automarkers. For example, it could have and aura that is a different color depending on how many stacks a character has, so you could look at your party and at a glance know how many stacks each person has. AM is effectively being used to compensate for FFXIV's user interface not giving the information in a way that's readable fast enough.
I don't really see why it's important if WF raiders use it or not, it is irrelevant who is using it if your opinion is that it is bad overall. In the case of "WF raiders cheat" - they get caught too - and the developers have reacted in increasing potency each time. Changing the game in TEA, bans in DSR and actual removal of clears in TOP alongside bans. Simply stating that they do it too does nothing to address Arthar's concerns about yoship's statement. It is stated very clearly that if people continue removing the challenge involved by cheating they do not see the point in creating the challenge in the first place. TOP P5 is absoutely bad design on the fight developer's part, adding a few restrictions and patterns around who can receive what buffs/debuffs would make this mechanic both more interesting, learnable and solvable. We are seeing more and more mechanics which are fully random in ultimates, and there is only so much priority systems can handle before they become too complicated to be expected of the raiding part of the playerbase. However, TOP P5's existence isn't an excuse to use AM, it is only a reason, and Arthar's opinion isn't "wrong". The amount of accepted cheating is steadily increasing and it will eventually come to a head.
players call am cheating then go use raid sim lmao. remember SE was going to put a "practice a phase" in back in the day, the community hated it and they decided it would trivialize the fight and not the intended way to learn the fight so they decided not to. whatever play how you want work smarter not harder, no one gonna look back on their death bed and be like yeah i rocked it in ffxiv, who cares enjoy things how you want
You have a wow problem here where mods are being forced on other people because it makes shit better/easier and the fact that FF mods are unregulated means they can be so much more powerful that anything in WoW. If anyone just decides to put effort into it
I'm currently progging TOP, and when we don't have a full static we fill spots using PF. We don't use AM for anything at all, for that p5 mechanic we self-mark, and there is plenty of time to do this in the leadup to when they're needed. Some players we find in PF literally can't do the fight without AM, and it's pretty frustrating. I agree though that the design of some of these mechanics is bad; it's stupid having to look at your debuffs constantly and use that to dictate what you should do, rather than having some visual cue in game. I hate mechanics where there is no visual cue ("just look at debuffs lol"), it's dumb, and I feel like this sort of thing is what pushes people towards using AM. Basically, we're at an impass; the mechanic is fucked, but possible; should we use AM to make it better? I wish AM wasn't the preferred way to do that mechanic, and there are quite a few players in PF who apparently agree, sometimes I come across a group where only one person wants it, or even nobody. I guess I just hope squeenix takes the feedback on board and recognises the problems with the way the mechanic is designed, and how to change their design strategy to make mechanics difficult whilst not also making AM such an easy win that PF defaults to using AM to solve it. I really don't think we should be okay with world-first groups cheating, and we shouldn't justify AM just because world-first groups use them. If we're calling AM cheating and telling PF to stop using AM, then we should apply the same logic to world-first groups, absolutely. Decide if AM is cheating or not and apply the same logic across the board to every player and every group.
most people simply don't care, since it doesn't affect them. for example, using AM for p5 ToP is just a convenience, most people will learn the mechanic, but it's either, 2 people mark everyone (good luck advertising that in PF) or you get AM to do it for you, at the end of the day, AM is 3rd party and interacts directly with the game, there for not allowed in the ToS. but the problem is, this ToS is so black and white that EVERYTHING falls under this. ACT? even if you purely use it for your own improvement, that's literally cheating, since you're not suppose to see what your DPS is. (stupid AF, don't get me wrong) chat bubbles? dear god! stop this man! being able to see the entire pull timer? OH NO! (yes, I use this, can easily play without, but the fact that 1, the pulltimer on screen is inaccurate, since the pull starts at 1 instead of 0 and you only see starting from 5 seconds, RDM for example needs to hard cast around 5.3-5.4 seconds, aka you're always late) honestly, unless SE finds a way to monitor what is being done to the game without monitoring what's on your PC, this isn't going away, and it doesn't affect me enough to give a shit about. world first uses plugins? tell me what top athlete doesn't use some technicality or something illegal without getting caught, is it right? nope, but at the end of the day, this is a video game, world 1st is literally just bragging rights, it's not like WoW where there can actually be a price pool. Granted, SE could release a client specifically for world 1st racers that they NEED to use and that can monitor much more, also see impossible plays and live record it so that any SE admin could jump in and review what's going on.
@@romualdgarcia7236 macros work if you get everyone to accept a standerized macro, if any starts self marking while others use a macro, shits ruined, youd need to agree.
i've used self marking for 90% of my prog for uwu, and it worked great for a static. As soon as you get into PF the coordination just falls apart (my static fell apart so I had to go into PF). Honestly I hate mechs where self marking is a thing its just a waste of time in my personal opinion. i hate looking at debuffs too but it is what it is, and ik its not going away so its whatever. Honestly I'm fine with AM because its the same thing as having a raid leader call out a mech. Im not okay with like cactpot telling you each and every mechs because you can learn it easily. like the amount of guides I rewatch for savage and ultimate is a lot. AM is just convenient with marking.
PF people not necessarily know self-marker strat, like lpdu says "one guy marks everyone", so light pf doesn't know alternatives honestly. Which is a shame, and I hoped lpdu would come up with something else instead
@@DarkDyllon Yeah it's kinda fucked. Also dude you're completely right about the pull timer for RDM. I main RDM and I created a couple of audio files with metronome-like clicks to count me in to the 5s mark, triggered whenever the countdown shows up in chat. For example if someone starts a countdown at 15s, I get clicks starting at 10s, so I can hit ~5s perfectly every time. For anyone else it seems like the weirdest shit, it only seems to make sense to people who play RDM. It's one of a dozen little QoL things that we can only hope SE notices and implements something so third-party isn't required.
Good take. I really don’t like automarkers, but it is incredibly predictable what type of mechanic they end up getting required for by pfs, so getting rid of them is as simple as not putting that type of mechanic in fights.
@@MaakaSakuranbo no, but the main debacle is about TOP and why AM becomes more prevalent. If TOP omega would have been MORE difficult with 2 more prios during omega. I can bet my left nut AM would've at least on EU not been used till many many months later. You simply don't understand the mech to understand why AM started being used in TOP. And this is the issue, ofc when people start using it for 1 thing. It's easy to then go ahead and use it for Sigma too. Or darn, add Delta too. Or you know what, maybe p3 or monitors too. It all goes too far from 1 major design flaw in 1 mechanic. So you know, maybe just test your game before sending it out. TOP omega is a disaster unless you're in voice. If you think every single PF will be in voice for a prog and/or potential clear that's just delusional
@@fabolousjada5070 the brief moment of omega pt2 where 4 people have the same option to go to the same place while 4 others are taking position during the same moment will ALWAYS be hard no matter how much you understand the mechanic. It becomes absolutely trivial when you're in voice. But if you're not it becomes absolutely messy and is comparable to UWU gaols. Just that the difference is that now you're not 4min into an easy fight but 16min in the hardest ult up to date.
Ive done UwU with AM, since thats just how ive learned it, I wasnt told theres other viable options xD In TOP I knew theres other options, but it seemed ass, it felt required and with it it was almost fun Deep down id like the fights to be solveable without that much hassle, like a middle spot between UwU and TOP, so we odnt incorporate thirdparty in too much With the part bout writing it in pf, if I join a pf, id like to know if they use it or not, I was quite upset to have gotten my BLU Clears with a group that used Cactbot. The leader just repeated in vc what Cactpot told him, I thought he just knows and calls it out, it didnt feel earned..if i knew he uses that, I wouldnt have joined
Okay I have to ask. Being a PS player and not an ultimate raider, I don't know the answer. When Xeno asks, "how is one player putting markers over your head different than auto markers?" I can see that, if a player does the mark, it takes them time and brainpower to solve the mechanic. Does automarker also require a person's input time and brainpower? If it solves the mechanic so that nobody has to risk losing a GCD, then I would think that is completely different. But if it marks spots on the map, and each player then has to interpret which marker to go to, then that stilk requires player input and bainpower. But if it marks each player and marks the map so people only need to react to a non-human solved input, then I don't buy into the argument that these two thinfa are the same. Can someone explain what auto markers do and how they affect the solving of the mechanic?
Automarkers put the markers on players' heads automatically, yes. So in a mechanic where 3 random players get a debuff and have 5 seconds to go to a precise point on the map or the team wipes, automarker marks the players with the debuff and since they are different numbers, it's pre-arranged that 1 goes to the front spot, 2 in the middle, 3 in the back, so they just check the number on their head put there automatically and go to the space they need to. Without automarkers, the debuffed players would need to notice they have the debuffs, and based on the random order the debuff is assigned, have a predetermined priority system to know who goes to the 1/2/3 position, and check every player in their party list to see who has the debuff or not, and what is the priority for those 3 players in specific, in the span of 5 seconds. So yes, automarkers mean less brainpower, less time spent, and less difficulty. It reduces the mental load on the party. And, thus, in my mind, is cheating. A plugin like NoClippy, assumed it's in its default state where it just simulates the ping someone living near the servers would get, isn't cheating. The player still needs to put in as much effort as anyone else would, it just negates the bad netcode the game has and puts them in parity, not beyond, players who are more geographically located.
You didn't understand his point. He was trying to say that the mechanic is poorly designed, because the player who is being marked, does not need to understand the mechanic in order to solve it. No matter if he is marked by a bot or another player.
i think the reason that glam mods are banable just like other mods is because someone could turn their character into another games character or use assets from another game and if it gets out the company that actually owns the rights to it could sue SE and the other mods are mostly considered cheating because they make things easier than its currently suppose to be, even tiny, its still an advantage over others that dont have it, at that rate we should all be using bots because farming mats isnt fair to those who dont like doing it.
Let's be clear: any advantage not built into the game that one person can have but others can't is cheating. That said, hopping into discord and having someone else tell you every single mechanic and you only get the clear because someone else told you is literally the same as having a bot do it. So yes it's cheating, but it's also a video game. With the exception of world first. I just can't be bothered to care. That's it. Even the devs essentially take that stance. Don't advertise stuff that's not a core part of the game. Don't stream something but not everyone can actually do. So if you don't bother anybody else or the devs you'll never be banned. Let's all remember that at the end of the Day, it's a video game. It's not even that competitive of a video game and for those that consider it competitive, they are all in fact cheating. The only time this comes up is when people are streaming world first and cheating to get the win, the day after world first Absolutely everybody just copies, whatever the winning strategy was. Not exactly ethical either huh?
19:22 ppl in my former FC actually think that way, we were raiding Ultimate together back then, there was a pretty shitty member that was bad at every perspective, so I suggested her to use cactbot or whatever that can remind her the mechanics, and they started hating on me. At that point, I knew it is waste of time so I quit. And yes, these are the same ppl believe that the cosmetic mod are cheat
Saw this while twitter drama going down earlier, and the amount of people who arejust jumpiung the bandwagon on this is insane. legit people screaming that people using a beard mod should be perma banned
My group when we got to Titan we got an assigned number. If we had jail the lowest number went to the front and so on. Took a bit to get used to it but it worked.
I'll always be against any AM or anything like that not cuz i care about what others use but as it gets more popular it's expected of me to use them too. Get these in the game if they are supposed to be there or block them entirely if they are not to be in the game. I don't want to risk my PC by installing something a random guy somewhere made.
Especially if its not backed by any terms of agreement or policy tht u can fall back on should they misuse said program to harm ur PC, u are installing it of ur free volition stripin urself of any rights.
27:54 Here Basically you have 4 people run into death wall forcing Titan's gaol RNG to 4 remain players. This strat wouldn't work if dps check these day ain't so forgiving.
@@sneaky7615 Thank you. After Xeno mentioned the JP strat at 8:37, I immediately went to search for the strat before finishing the video because I got curious. Heh heh
Me and my friends recently pfed dsr, no one had AM, so we just manually marked the stacks, used our eyes in wroth and we actually got prog, it’s perfectly doable without AM and it’s not even hard
Xeno, on Crystal people clear Titan Gaols in PF without markers and the way they do it is super simple. They just assign a 1-8 marker for each person. If you get gaol, hit your macro. Then line up in order after the 3 people hit their macro. It works really well. So if AM gets removed Gaols will be just fine. Unless they remove the ability to place player markers in combat.
we tried this before in my ultimate static, the issue was that if you use the same macro (that assigns the marker to attack) and you do it at the same time, you can override someone elses marker. we had that a few times before we just opted for AM, where 2 people essentially pressed it around the same time and you saw 1 get the 1 marker, but it dissapeared to appear on someone else.
@@DarkDyllon So everyone gets a number 1-8. So no one has the same marker. Let’s say Gaol people are 2,5,8. They line up in order 2 first, 5 second, 8 third.
@@Xion-Rotti I know how the macro works, but we ran into the issue that the macro literally overwrite someone else's marker. so for example me and someone else pressed it at the same time, I got the 1 marker and saw it dissapear to appear on someone else's head, this is unfortunately not fool proof. Granted, making a priority system like UCOB with L1-4 and R1-4 could also work. for example OT = 1, H1 = 2. H2= 3 and then the m1, m2, r1 and r2 obviously, this could make it easier overal.
The heavy reliance on debuffs we saw in TOP was absolutely horrendous. I get that it is "possible" to solve the P5 debuffs without AM, but it's just not a fun mechanic. Take away those debuffs and what do you have? A relatively difficult tether and bait phase with Delta, some near and far glitch solves with Sigma, and two predation dodges with Omega. This isn't terrible, but it's not an engaging phase. I want more of P6. Do that. Challenge my mit rotation on tank. Push my healing output on healer. Test my positioning knowledge on dps. And this is completely ignoring the problem that my co-tank and I had in TOP, that being both of us are partially blind. My eyes take a long time to focus compared to most other people and things tend to blend. I can't tell near and far world apart at a glance, let alone tell if I have the short or long one on omega. Devs keep using tiny tells like the slight glow on Hrae and Nidd TBs in DSR, or the terrible quotes in UCOB Nael that make the fights inaccessible. DSR and TEA are amazing fights with massive moving parts, tough and tight mechanics, and in the case of DSR, real knowledge of how your class works. Hopefully the devs are watching what's going on and design future fights with these things in mind.
One thing I hate about devs saying they tested the game is that there's no reason to believe their test are accurate enough for the wider audience. What I mean is like, them testing the game in house can't realistically take into consideration how ping effects the game because in house testing is likely LAN based or just so close to servers response times are super accurate. I play 14 with roughly 70ms ping, I have 1 friend that plays with 8ms ping, and another that plays at 200 ping with no clippy. I highly doubt the FF14 devs are taking into consideration ping differences so drastic when testing shit. Then there's the fact that test environments can be entirely isolated compared to how the live build. You'll constantly hear devs, not just game devs pretty much all software devs, talk about how they're issues on the public/live build that weren't there on the test build and part is because test builds are just isolated sections compared to how it's apart of the live build. I don't doubt they test TOP but they likely tested ToP in an isolated environment because there's no way they wouldn't have caught the bugs.
L take, but still love you baldy. Oking some third party, ok's it all is wild. World of warcraft allowed way too much 3rd party and it forced the devs to make a worse game. FF14 raiding is unique. Yes the devs have designed some bad mechs, but in totality FF raiding is the best on the market, flaws and all. Allowing 3rd party forces the devs to design around people using them would be bad for the game. Arthars take is not great, but yours is just as bad.
Xeems always with the based takes. Arthars takes are blatantly bad and biased. Automarkers is cheating. no one is arguing against that, what we are arguing against is his biased opinion on how ONLY automarkers is cheat ing, yet world first groups having 10 ppl in discord with 2 being a human cactpot and calling out their every single move isnt cheating, how using ACT to optimize dps which also is against the rules isnt cheating, even TPS used Paisley Park automated waymarks to clear tea. He's a hypocrite and on a crusade against ONLY PF when he should be looking into his own circle if he is so concerned about these things. Also if yoshi P takes automarkers, he is going to end up taking away your precious ACT as well i assure you.
@@estiniensenpai3355 woah alot of heat. AM is cheating, and that's bad. World first using third party is cheating, and that's bad. Baldy seems to be putting forth the suggestion that cheating is binary and if you allow any you should allow all. And that's what i disagree with. No cheating is better for the game. You will never stop all cheaters, they will find a way. I still don't think that excuses cheating. just because some will doesn't mean you open the flood gates and say well everyone can cheat then, just police yourself. And the whole idea that you need to make difficult content accessible just because there are more people that play video games know is BS. Difficult content should be difficult content, and if you can't keep up, get good. Now, that's not to excuse bad design. Of course certain things are poorly designed, and I DO think the devs should do better to design things that don't need to be third party tool assisted. But just because they design something "too hard" doesn't give the all clear to go ahead and cheat. Make content difficult, don't dumb it down for the masses, and design stuff to be intuitive. DO NOT make "difficult content" easy just so more people can say they did difficult content.
Don't care. If world first and high end raiders are cheating, then everyone is allowed to cheat. You can't cherry pick what cheaters you hate, and what cheaters you will give a pass. Fk off with that
Usually the game marks your character in some way to solve mechanics, even number from 1 to 8, if the game doesn't give you this information by default there is a problem in the bossfight.
i really don't think the "i can't beleive WoW needs addon to play the game" crowd and the automarkers crowd have as much of an overlap he thinks they do.
The only thing SE would do to combat Auto Markers is to prevent marking during combat. The exact same reason we can't place way markers during combat now.
Why is the title "Arthars is wrong about Auto Markers" when word for word they said the same thing? "The problem isn't automarkers, it's the fight designs." 21:03 The problem with this outlook is it'll encourage more people to use more mods and make them public in an attempt to get the devs to see it. Because everyone will work under the assumption that their mod will be one of the ones FF14 will accept and roll into the game. And if the consequence of getting banned for using a mod is removed, then the streaming scene will just become a showcase for everything SqEx doesn't want the game to be about. If you want FF14 to become WoW, this would be the fastest path. Saying that someone manually doing markers for people or doing raid callouts is the same as Cactbot and Automarkers is just intellectually dishonest. Is the function of a player not properly learning the mechanic because they're just being told what to do the same? Yes. But the main difference is it's an online, cooperative game, and interacting with other players to overcome challenges is the whole point. Different people having different strengths and weaknesses and contributing what they can to a group getting the fight cleared is the entire essence of the MMO. It's why these games exist in the first place. At the end of the day, using combat assist mods is cheating. The individual subjective morality on the topic doesn't matter, and the only people who defend it are people who are cheating but still want to be taken seriously. If you play via satellite in Antarctica and you use Alex so you can still doubleweave, so be it. You've still cheated to get better results than most people playing the game outside of the west coast. Maybe at the next media tour YoshiP should be presented with a list of the mods people seem to think are acceptable, and see how many he agrees need to be rolled into the game, and how many he shoots down. The problem with some of these takes is they make logical sense in a vacuum. And if FF14 was the first MMO ever made and we had no idea how the internet community would handle things, it would seem like reasonable arguments. But as history has shown us, every online multiplayer game that accepts mods and modding just ends up worse for it, because it gets to a point where too many people's line for what's acceptable is way too far. It becomes an arms race where people who know about and have access to the tools become infinitely better than people just trying to play the game and have a good time, and that's garbage. You can break the stuff up into a tier list and argue at what exact point stuff is or isn't ok, but you're always going to have people tapdancing around that line, or going past it anyway. SqEx would need to add 20% or so to their dev staff just to manage the mod situation properly, which would cost them millions of dollars. And that's why they're not interested.
I personally think any 3rd party that affects other people's gameplay either in a good or a bad way shouldnt be in the game. Also one's that give you an advantage in a group type of setting. the only exception to this is voice chat
Calling voip an exception is extremely biased, because Voip can help more then auto markers, cactbot, and trigonommetry. Either all is bad, or none of it is, cherry picking which is good or isn't is stupid.
@@handles_are_idiotic because I believe every multiplayer game needs to have a form of voice chat. Unfortunate FFXIV doesn't have it but regardless if they add it or not people will still use discord anyways so I get why it's not in the game. It's not cherry picking but more in the lines of a "requirement" in multiplayer games in 2024 and beyond
@@gerpogi YOU believe multiplayer games need some sort of VC, Square enix doesn't. Going as far to say that Discord is third party (Which it is), so it doesn't make sense, regardless of what you believe, the rules are clear, and like i said, cherry picking is dumb. Either all is fine, or none of it is
@@tengille Yes, at a baseline SE designs their fights with no third party being needed (This includes Voip), now do they succeed in that? No, but the fact stands, I personally don't agree that Voip is in the same category as something like "bossmod" but it is, and exempting it from that category is cherry picking
all you have to do is look at twitch and their stance on "mature" content. the moment ffxiv opens the door to one mod, you're going to get people constantly trying to test the line and before long we have full on weak aura's. I'm sorry, we can't trust the modders.
No look at WOW is perfect example. Where the Devs now expect you to be using mods and have work around fact people use Mods for Raids and such. That is can of worms if ff14 would slowly come to if allowed mods. *im fine with cosmetics or graphic mods.* but ones that intentionally make stuff easier for you in raids and such nah
@@MorryOnTheFence Slippery Slope Fallacies are ill definied, but even with accepted definitions the "consequence down the line" has to be improbable for it to actually be a fallacy. But we've already seen multiple times how modders will shift and dominate the meta. In fact automarkers being the topic of conversation has already shown me people using in P9S the freaking easiest current fight. Why would they not do this for every fight on the next raid tier if they already do it with the easiest in the current tier?
@@tengille nobody is seriously suggesting SE allow AM. The argument is that the fights should be better designed. SE do not want to police it by either condoning or cracking down. YoshiP does not want to talk about it, and clearly hates when he's forced to address it every time the community starts drama farming on it again. The idea that Arthars is going to walk up to him at CN Fanfest and get action after a conversation might just be peak delusion.
@@MorryOnTheFenceSlippery slope as a term to counteract matters of consequence is such fucking bullshit. It's always the only argument when shit that would be defined as a "slippery slope" occurs time and time again. WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE SLOPES ARE ACTUALLY SLIPPERY AND IT DOES IN FACT WORK THAT WAY. If something is not and will not block something progressing in a certain direction, then it WILL progress in that direction. Water will erode the ground on the path of least resistance, it's not going to suddenly decide "actually I'm going to stop at this point in erosion specifically and not go any further" No one should need outside tools that solve the mechanic for you and it should rely solely on the teamwork and skill of the team. If fights are TOO HARD as to not be able to do that, then they're too fucking hard or people are clearing who shouldn't. Simple as.
I love how literally none of this would have happened if they gave us like 3-5 more seconds to resolve the first near/far world after the omega dodges. I mean this is the developer who admit they playtest in god mode. By all means take away AM, I know how to conga line, but i am NOT marking in by burst window, my gcd is 1.5.
The worst thing about Ultimate fights in FFXIV is that they throw out their design philosophy in giving you enough legible information to resolve mechanics. The main selling point of FFXIV over WoW that WoW is now trying to incorporate is giving you the actual tells and range of attacks, even if it's after it's resolved, just so that you know how to rectify your mistakes. Ultimates just throw all of that out the window by actually taking away the information that makes their encounter design more enjoyable than their competitors. Wroth Flames wouldn't be the dumpster fire that makes PF bring automarkers if they gave enough legible information, either by giving you the debuffs before you have to start running, or by actually giving characters a marker above their head that denotes Hrae/Nidd marks so people know what debuff other people have. I know the actual intended strat to resolve it would be by rearranging everyone's party window to the exact same lineup and developing a priority system based on that, but you still have little time, and rearranging party windows just screws with healers (especially controller healers) who might prefer tanks in specific spots in the party window.
Arthars is the king of bad takes. Hes always saying some dumb shit on stream. Guys such a hypocrite too, he uses triggers and when he was using that dumbass collar soundbar thing, you could literally hear it coming through his mic lmao.
My mentality is that if AM is used, thats okay. If a person uses a mod to help them complete a mechanic, thats okay. Is using a mod considered cheating? Yes. Does it discount my clear because somebody else or my group needs these mods to do well? No. If I don't use mods it would just make my clear seem more rewarding. I would in full confidence just outright say "I'm just better." And you know what, I get the clear and thats what matters most to me. In the case of AM where a fight isn't designed for the PF to be able to set and agree on priorities, I don't think its evil.
PF has set and agreed on priorities in other mechanics already The issue with AM is, it will affect you. People can't explain prios, or you notice super fst auto marking or w/e. So either you have it and/or follow it, you indirectly use it via getting marked, or you basically can't play in that party
The TOS is written as a blanket statement so SE always has the power to ban without arguing why something may be cheating. They can just call the 3rd party clause and be done with it. Enforcing the TOS is a completely different matter altogether.
Plenty of people clear UWU on JP without doing the 4 player sac thing, they just call out their job or a number and everyone knows the priority system like we did it back before AM or the titan xml I think for me I'm with arthars on it's really the fact that people always justify it, "You have no time" "it's too hard to see" "It's too hard to do without voice chat" etc. they are always finding a reason for it to be the game's fault so that their cheating is justified and/or acceptable. And a lot of these people in PF have never even *tried* to do the mechanic legit, it's not like they got stuck there and said "okay I guess we have to use AM" they just use it by default because from how it sounds it's either impossible or insanely difficult to do without it. I also don't agree that you should expect PF to do it if world first raiders use cheats because world first raiders are in a race, they have a competitive incentive to clear.
Can't speak for TOP as I haven't done much of it, but I've done Gaols and Wroth both with and without AM, it's equally easy for both. Neither of these mechanics are as difficult as people believe them to be, but AM is also not the enormous advantage people believe it to be.
defending world first racers cheating but when people who dont wanna race cheat it's an issue, classic, another hypocrite like arthars, except this time you don't even know the phase and still think your opinion matters..
@@nicesnacks5015 I'm not defending racers for cheating, my point is simply that those people have more incentive to cheat and so you can't say "If racers have to do it, then of course casuals will!". The implication is that it's so hard that even the best players have to use cheats, but that's not the reason they use them, they use them because they want to WIN the race. It's like saying because steroid usage is so common in professional sports that you should expect everyone at your local park to be doping too. These are people who have egos and in the case of sponsored events, money on the line. It's still wrong to do. If you wanna go there and get personal, I've cleared every ultimate and I've played the game since ARR so my UCoB and UwU clears were both in Stormblood before melon or even the ancient titan xml existed, I play on a vanilla client with Mudfish and I haven't bothered running ACT in years because someone else in my groups always does. The only Ultimate I've cleared off-patch was UCoB in 4.5 because it disbanded my original static. I can see from your channel that even with voice chat you needed automarker to clear TOP off patch, in a LPDU c41 (you are the 1) you are effectively the EU version of a Saus Legend. You were even the one nice enough to set up melon for your off patch DSR group too. Why should I think YOUR opinion matters?
to be fair i cleared UwU with AM because there was no single party that wasn't using it on PF so i was forced upon it but neither i cared to much idk..., cleared TEA without using AM. had fun in both fights
Usually agree with you but L take here Xeems. I don't disagree that the stance the devs have on third party tools is stupid, but that doesn't excuse AM usage even if the mechanic is bad. If I have to wall in titan jails I would, I just don't want to cheat. With how garbage the stance is on plugins, you have to draw the line in the sand yourself and abide by that. The shared space that is PF draws the line on AM and whatever your stance is, you'll have to accept this or don't pf UWU/TOP. This is what bothers people. I don't care if you cheat or not, I care that I cannot pf UWU/TOP because I don't want to cheat (again, not by SE standards but by my own).
automarkers are fine specially when my whole raid group plays with 300+ ping, it literally makes fights that would be impossible to clear, clearable. Saying that automaker is equivalent to gil hacks is such a ridiculous false equivalence too lol
Mod turns on, and the 1,2,3,4 and X,O and so on raid markers you can put on people automatically get asinged to people and basically kinda tell you were to stand on top of your head.
Meanwhile Arthas complains about his Triggers not working in W1.
This is what bothers me about Arthars, he is a hypocrite.
Mr Splatoon aka Arthars? If I remember correctly all streamers started to hide their tools cause of him streaming to 5k viewers with triggers and so on.
@@Vaeyz what are you talking about? when tf did arthars ever use splatoon lmfao, all he had was act and a voice trigger for trick attack or useless stuff
@@komimisliar That's what we know, he could also have timers and text cactbot triggers without sound effects...
@@jin6186 yes just like every single person who streams this game?
What i honestly found the funniest about this whole debacle was Arthars threatening people with going straight to Yoshi-P next fanfest and showing him clips of people using AM.
Only one of two things are gonna happen if he really goes through with that.
Either he just removes the option to change markers mid-fight
Or what i think would be the funniest outcome: He just bans Arthars himself for showing them to him and a patch later he adds AM as an official feature.
now that i think bout it, im surprised we can still place and change them midfight unlike floormarks
They won't block markers from being added / removed mid fight, considering if they did that then the whole marker system might as well be removed. Waymarks got that treatment because it doesn't really matter that the waymarks get changed midpull or not but are still useful to have from the start.
Arthars being banned and them adding it would be pretty funny though
@@Ayalis tell me when are markers used outside AM ?
What I found funniest is twitch chat sound boarding through the whole video.
@@cheshireyordle9586 You missed my point. "If they block *normal markers* from being applied mid-fight, they might as well remove them entirely from the game since it's the only place they're used".
Better?
I wish my life was as carefree to have my biggest problem be auto markers in an online game
I wish my life
ikr like XD
Apparently having a conversation on something you're passionate about implies that it's the biggest problem in your life. Everything sounds more serious online than it actually is, most people are just having a conversation on am, it's really not that big of a deal
@@skcans haha no life haha
@@skcans This isn't "having a conversation", it's "throwing a Twitter tantrum". The guy wrote a whole thread where he's malding about AM and about how he's gonna go pester Yoshi P in a Fanfest, show him vids with AM (like Yoshi P didn't already know about AM), and hoping he bans them on the spot or stops making ultimates or whatever. So Arthars can then say to his "so-called" friends he doesn't respect them anymore?
Again i rlly don't think Arthars of all people has very little ground to grandstand about any kinda plugin/mods.... devs seeing his dsr clear vod with him using triggers gives him some kinda false ideal hes above being banned or punished?
Bro I stg Arthars inflated this drama for views
oh yeah, im the designated marker for TOP for my static, it was miserable as fuck, i hated that phase with a passion lol. my static was headstrong in not using automarkers which is fine, and yet no one was willing to step up so I as the fucking melee dps had to, which is the problem, it expects you to put the burden on 1-2 players to solve the entire mechanic for the whole group. you wont think p5 sucks if you use AM and are not the person who has to mark people.
And when I fk up during p5 during and after the dodges people get upset (understandably cause its late as fk in the fight) but it feels shitty as hell. Mechanic is miserable, with how its designed and how late it is into the fight. P5 is not a good fight design if it heavily pushes all the burden on 1-2 people or on using automarker, especially for randos. Every PF would have to have at least 1-2 players who know how to mark during a shitty phase and that's unrealistic.
this is exactly it, in our static obviously the healer marker/caller (jeez I can't even imagine how miserable this must be as meele LOL, cuz you're basically marking during your 2m window if I recall correctly? xD)
but EVEN as a person not marking, having the feeling that our healer might mess it up again or get clipped by bs just felt like sht. Even after the 5th clear when I knew he likely will get it right it just felt miserable to be anxious about doing everything correctly as a player while being at the mercy of 1, doing sth which is miserable for him to begin with
I hella enjoyed PF with AM cause everybody had the same responsibilties, and even if we would fail you saw it coming from a mile away if someone was going wrong. It just felt way more enjoyable in itself and made me go from dreading reclears to actively sitting in PF to clear TOP for fun. Ended up with 20+ clears total in the end
While most people crying here about "you bad" are just people who prob couldn't even get to p5 if they wanted to
@@Bankai90 yep the 2m window happens there. yeah i bet the people who are saying "you bad" probably has never done the marking themselves or their group probably used AM. And agreed PF was more fun cuz I exactly did not have to mark people. I was always so extra stressed during P5 in my static lol. It did get easier but at the start it was absolutely miserable.
@@MorpheusCh at that point you should quit your static, when the group collectively asked and even worse case, burden you with such task, idk if you should call that a static anymore, more like slaving you
After everything has been said, it all come down to "Ultimate is for Prestigious, elite people only, not for pebble like you PF"
@@luckytanuki5449the fact that the devs put it into PF means it's meant for PF. You are already wrong. What is special about a static? One guy will auto mark anyway. Also he is right that Athas can't say shit about AM when he and his group uses it along with all on the world to first. Ultimate is nothing exclusive, only people who can't find value in any other aspect of their life try to pretend it is. Coming from someone who cleared all ults.
@@luckytanuki5449 why would you care how people do it tho? Why should the fight be gatekept behind having a static? I guarantee you even with AM any fight will still be way harder to do in PF than with a static, so it's not like they are making the fight easy. They are just making it doable.
I am really confused by the gatekeeping.
@@luckytanuki5449 so people with changing schedules are not allowed to raid? what a dumb argument
@@luckytanuki5449 but isn't that going to produce idiots like req-cat who only cares about how good your parse is as "Skill level" instead of how good the players like xenos and arthars that adapted to the fight?
@@omaralmula3202 Cheating is when no schedule
Random side note why do we have all these random shity sounds from chat when there is any time there is a discussion about a more serieus topic. Good lord the random meme sounds every 20 seconds is really anoying.
fr, having a bitch moaning in my ears when he's having some serious words is annoying af
youtube frog kekw
Yeah it's becoming a bit too much. It was funny when it was a random fart noise or Discord sound alert that trolled everyone into checking their DMs once every 5/10 minutes or so. But it's not funny any more.
i can't listen to this whilst there is a random dude moaning every 2 minutes
Because Xeems isn't someone who should be taken seriously. He proves it time and time again.
For me, use whatever you need, so you don't make my life more miserable in pf.
The issue of AM is that now that you use it, I have to use it too. So you make my life miserable :)
@@MaakaSakuranbo open your no AM pf. Again, if people feel so strongly against AM. The pf's will fill faster than AM groups.
Yet again. I bet if you would be a PF player or would've done TOP. You would understand why AM was used there. So when you're in a static you don't even need AM since you're in voice.
Imagine just playing a game
@@MaakaSakuranbo You don't have to, if you are miserable someone is using one, you can find another party without one. Don't enter or leave at the sign of it. No one is forcing you to be in this exact party.
Leave, say it to them why, they will probably out, blacklist you, so you will never be in the same party as them ever again. repf, and move on.
But hey, you can blacklist them too. So you won't be in the same party that makes you miserable by using AM ever again.
@@Bankai90Honestly that's my biggest gripes with Arthars' entire tantrum; in a follow up reply he literally admits that JP does not PF [TOP], he has no frame of reference for progging without callouts and comms between party members. Also personal triggers (ribbide ribbide ribbide) on top of that and it's genuinely mind blowing he thinks he has a high horse to be on here. The only fight I feel like needs the help is TOP, purely because you can't adjust around people who don't understand the mechanic.
Xeno should mute his mic audio to stream every once in a while, and keep recording audio, and then give us RUclips frogs kissies instead of Twitch chat.
BASED
The only reason Arthars mentioned Mare is because of how carefree people throw that shit around in search info or their adventurer plates. The maker of the plugin even said to be discrete about it but everywhere you go you can see people with (Mare Lamentorum) on their character. I don't agree with a lot he said but I can understand where he's coming from since waving around the AM and ML isn't exactly discrete, more like flaunting it, at this point.
I made Mare and yes I agree, people are idiots putting it everywhere. But at this point I also don't believe anymore that SE doesn't know about it. They just don't care/do anything about it. We will see what DT will bring so enjoy it as long as it lasts, I guess.
Nah arthars is a elitis
SE would know about mare and AM irregardless of players ‘Flaunting’ them. So who cares?
@@rootdarkarchon I haven't exactly seen Square Enix acting on modding and plugin accusations unless they're explicitly mentioned or recorded. Hell, in some cases they even require multiple pieces of evidence to prove botting. As Mare Lamentorum is an auto-translate term, players have some defence in feigning ignorance which is actually a viable argument, even if SE has very little reason to believe it.
It's taking advantage of the support staff's neutrality and good faith by using an in-game feature that could be, under certain (if not extremely rare) circumstances, used legitimately.
what tf is mare, if u don't mind answering?
So I'm the guy who Arthars is talking to, and I realized what I said was fucking stupid. I was praying that this shit would just blow over and people will forget. But now Xemes did a video showing that discussion, please, I'm sorry, I'm fucking stupid. Please do not flame me.
Edit: I lack self confidence, something to work on in the future.
Aw man, don't apologize and don't deprecate yourself like this. You had an opinion and you wrote about it, if someone flames you about it then you shouldn't give a flying fk. It's not like every other opinion on Twitter is written after meticulous research and is infallible.
Its all good, we all say things that we regret
Don't fold, you were right about some things.
Arthars would never admit he's wrong even if the whole community including Yoshi-P called him out on it. If only the world first raiders did Ultimate's like Arthars wants they'd hit a point where they wouldn't be able to justify making them anymore. About 20% of players do the content currently, that's why they keep making it. It's a spectacle and enough people do it to justify it, if only 1-5% did it like Arthars wants we'd be lucky to even get 1 an expac.
Arthars only attacks AM and PF because he wants less people clearing it, he wants to feel more special. He doesn't really care about 3rd party like he makes it out, he uses things like ACT and Triggers and Alexander, he didn't plan out any of his arguments at all that's why he flip-flops around so much about everything. It'd be hilarious if he somehow got all 3rd party banned because he'd ruin the game for himself, not just others. Whenever he's on something like MogTalk he inadvertently lets his real opinions out and you can tell how he really feels when he's able to talk down to people about it. He's super weirdly elitist about hard content, it doesn't even make sense.
It is alright dude, you have a opinion and regardless if some agree or not.
everyone is allow to have an opinion. no matter how unbelieveable stupid and right out insane they are.
i still cant believe you pissed arthars so badly to this point. is amazing
bro aint no way im watching this and youtube rolled up with a gil selling website ad LMAO
WTF bro wild shit
Have been seeing those since last week, too
AM is not too big a deal for me, my only issue with it is how reliant people are on the plugin. i've seen people ask for it in both ucob and dsr for lightning, looking at your debuff isn't difficult
So, I work at a convenience store. Our policy for theft is that we cannot chase the person stealing. We essentially do not move if we see someone doing it. I don't care if people steal from the store, it doesn't hurt my bank account. However, if we do see someone stealing we have to call the police. Ideally, since we can't stop people from stealing, we prefer they do it in a way that we don't see it so I don't have to call the cops and go through all that trouble.
I feel the same way about advertising use of mods. Use it if you want, but don't be an ass about it knowing nothing will be done about it.
before TOP came out I saw some people complaining how formalized the xiv tradition of partitioning responsibilities by role or light party assignment etc (e.g. each tank gets one of two possible patterns, each healer gets one of two possible patterns, etc). then TOP comes out, themed around priority systems and less guarantees on which role gets what, and the feedback is ”no not like that”
I mean DSR has plenty of mechanics where anyone can get any mechanic and people find that fight to be just fine so yeah TOP was a not like that moment. Doesn't mean people were going back on what they said 🤷🏾♀️
Lmao okay...sorry I couldn't really focus on what Xeems was saying because of all the effects his chat kept spamming to drown him out.
Completely agree, I wish they would remove the chat effects on these uploads.
@@SS3Sheltonjust because you can’t reign in your attention span doesn’t mean the rest of us should suffer
@PareSM Suffer? Oh no don't take away the extremely unfunny spam, anything but that.
Yeah, these stupid effects make al ot of streams insufferable to watch imo
I thought they came from him having videos rolling with the "x hours of silence occasionally broken up by x sound"
Like the Yoder times
Automarkers suck, I'll agree that things like Dynamis stacks aren't great mechanics, but any take that normalizes them more will just make their usage bleed into everything else. If people feel like it's "accepted", you'll just start seeing automarkers used for random stuff like Lightning debuffs in ults, at which point it even bleeds into the gameplay of people who aren't playing with third party, because it affects everyone in the group. Give third party raiders an inch and they'll just start pushing the envelope more into why the next DBM-level addon they like is "actually just QoL, because X is a bad mechanic".
The correct solution would be to go to stuff like p5 top and making it more visually clear. But SE can't do that because then everyone who did it before the change will whine about it until the heat death of the universe. So the best SE can do is to take notes to not create situations that incentivse AM in the future. Currently the easiest to use AM plugin comes with a ton of presets for things that people never use. Wrath and DotH markers, lightning markers for Nael, Looper markers. A ton of stuff. But even though it's just one click away people don't use them because there's no need to - mechanics are fine the way they are. AM is currently STUPIDLY EASY to set up, yet it's only used on Titan, P5 TOP and sometimes Wroth. There's next to no AM usage elsewhere in ultimates and absolutely nothing below ults. People who truly want to cheat don't give a shit about AM because they already run zoomhack, cactbot and splatoon which gives them so much of an advantage that AM is almost redundant. People who just run AM run it to fix janky crap that ruins otherwise fun fights.
You are right I've already seen people use it for the P9S Levinstrike.
This has been the case since Stormblood for UwU, it wasn't necessary nor used or considered for TEA, for DSR I've cleared it in PF without as well and have seen groups that don't rely on it for Wroth. It wasn't considered nor used for groups doing any of the raids for savage (other than levin a while later) nor EX trials, I'm not dismissing the possibility of this becoming an issue in the future but as it has proven with time, it hasn't been the case overall.
I would prefer not seeing it or having people rely on it less but I'd prefer if they bothered making stuff like that more visually obvious, there isn't a good reason as to why they don't make mechanics just a little bit more visually clear, it could be a buff on the side that shows the numbers of dynamis stacks or underneath your character, anything would have been better than nothing at all.
"NOOOO BUT PF AND WORLD FIRST RAIDERS NEED CHEATS AND AUTOMARKERS TO CLEAR FIGHTS" Sounds like both PF and World First raiders are both getting clears easier than they should be. It's cheating, and anyone saying otherwise, including Xeems, is coping super hard. Yes, none of the world first clears with cheats matter. Or at least it's watered down. I don't think he's ever had to deal with the integrity of competition being fucked up and doesn't play any competitive games.
No one looks at clears and respects having to use shit that solves mechanics for you or think for you. No one maybe outside of the World First raiders that all use them because they all cope with each other on the same playing field. And using "OH BUT YOU CAN TALK TO PEOPLE ON DISCORD FOR CALL OUTS, IS THAT THIRD PARTY?" Is a stupid argument that's been used in the past because the SKILL IS STILL COMING FROM A HUMAN BEING, NOT A MACHINE.
This is as out of touch as when he was saying "Savage is midcore". No bro you've been doing ultimates for fucking years and been playing the game for a decade. Everything will get easier for you only and you will lose connection with even the above average player.
just bite back with a macro that clears marks
Yo Leo, is there a way for you to split Xeno's mic audio from Twitch chat's audio? It would be easier to watch his vods WITHOUT all the crazy sound effects from chat, especially with topics where he's talking in depth about something.
Even the statics that don't use AM, don't have all their players learn a priority system for Sigma and Omega trio and have all 8 players solve it. One gamer who can react quickly will be the one to mark people instead of using a program. THAT person understands the intricacies of the mechanics, the other 7 don't necessarily do just because they cleared without it.
I'll be honest, doing gaols without automarkers isn't hard and if automarking gets banned or countermeasured against, the entire raiding community is gonna be absolutely stunned how easy the proper way to do Gaols was the entire time.
The community tends to overcomplicate things
I couldn't understand divebombs in T9 (When it was current) for the longest time because guides made it sound super complicated, but then a friend brought me into the fight, got to that point and resolved it. All I could think was "Wait, this shit was *THAT* easy this whole time?!"
@@Feast_ in T9's case people wanted to gatekeep knowledge to give themselves raid position security. This was a very real thing with varying levels of effectiveness. Most of the time it didn't work. In groups of newer players however...
The fucking same as dynamis though
It's all about practice really. When you first do party synergy, you think it is impossibly hard. But do it 1000 times and you can react to it in a second. It's exactly the same with TOP p5. Practice it enough and you will be able to recognise debuffs on the party list instantly, and get used to prios and flexing easily.
Gaols is so fucking easy without AM. People will watch Tessan's guide and literally ignore the macro provided in the video to do gaols without AM. It takes 10 seconds to make.
My static did P5 just fine without automarkers, am I better than anyone who used it? Hell no, my raid leader called out the far world and fist baits in sigma and the far world baits in omega (plus someone else called monitor for the first part of omega).
There was almost no thought needed from my part and the only thing we got from not using AM was making my raid leader's life worse. I'm a bit biased because I really don't do PF and don't care much about the state of it but I'm never gonna judge anyone for using AM on TOP, it's just not worth the stress.
Yeah basically for everyone but the person marking/calling out it still like AM lol
That's literally the problem. Everyone can tell you add-ons make your life easier, that's why half of the people defend them and why the other half hates them. They don't necessarily 'play the game" for you (right now), but they increase the number of things you can track and do. Anything that affects and reduces the mental stack/cognitive load is a net plus, but it's also a hack/cheat in essence if others can't use it (eg. console players, PC players with worse systems, etc.) thus making the competition unequal/unfair.
It's also an arms race to the bottom as can be seen in WoW. People get used to having these "minor conveniences" and every year they push further for more convenience here, less hassle there, some assistance with rotation over there, another automation on the other side. It never stops.
Worse even, because add-ons exist and impact the difficulty directly, devs will be pressured into making even harder fights, taking into account these add-ons, which in turn makes content even more difficult, to the point it will no longer be doable without them.
Once you open Pandora's box of add-ons, you can't simply close it. It's an MMO with many moving parts and once it's in, taking it out and re-training the community becomes impossible. Add-ons is one of those few cases where the answer is black and white. you either have them, or you don't. End of discussion. Once you say yes, you can't change your mind.
Show me a Mythic Raider in WoW that doesn't use add-ons, and I will show you a liar.
I'll explain you the issue. Now go and clear again with your static without discord. See how shitty that becomes suddenly. The main reason AM is used in TOP is cuz in voice u can easily callout north/south, the whole AM debacle isn't even about the "difficult" part of TOP. It is about the "easy" part which has no concise placement for at least 2 players. If they would've given 2 people more debuffs and thus a defined placement for north/south, making the mechanic "harder" people wouldn't even use AM in entire P5.
You're simply going to AM so you don't have to be in voice, and pf will always choose this. And yea, then it all starts going a bit too far afterwards.
With even slightly better design for Omega we would not have this entire AM debacle lol
Tbh I don't even get this logic of "I was carried by raid leader cause they called it" like bruh it's a fucking team game of course you're supposed to help each other
@@GoodLosertjo Also that Raid leader isn't a 100% perfect machine, and good lord if you are any good at the game (specially in TOP) you should be learning to do/call the mech yourself as well and using raid lead as confirmation you read it correctly.
My argument for auto markers has always been that it's such a dumb thing to get upset about. You could have one person get really fucking cracked at marking people with mouseover macros, and effectively be an automarker that's capable of making mistakes. You know why I have that stance? *Because that's what I fucking did.* The other 7 people in the raid might as well have had an automarker because me putting signs over people's heads is what told them what to do. I did vocal callouts for sigma and full enemy signs for omega (sans the marks for the tethers in the second round). Functionally, it's no different.
The issue isn't automarkers existing. The issue is the fight being designed in such a way that automarker trivializes a phase.
Yea I think this is a good take on it
What upsets me a bit more is that you dont even need AM for delta with just a few tweaks you wouldnt need it for sigma or omega neither
Arthars generally has horrible takes in regards to 14.
I'd be fine if they removed player marking in combat if they adjusted some ultimate mechanics to compensate, either slightly less random (ie. Dynamis stacks), or clearer non-party list markers. Having a prio order is fine, but it shouldn't end up in a situation where you can't develop a reliable strat without some assigned 3rd party decision maker
.
You most likely can make a reliable strat. People just have to bother to learn it. And esp. when it's a race thing people don't wanna do that
What I'm sort of 'worried' about is this. They removed the ability to change arena markers because the TEA world first team used a 3th party tool for trines, so what's stopping them from doing the same to overhead markers? To me, it honestly feels like something they would have done years ago. I'm very surprised that they haven't done it yet.
Personal markers can be replaced with a plugin typing out personal assignments in party chat and as a GM they would never be able to tell if it isn't just a real player typing, it's a complete non-starter
It's already out of control with people not being able to do TOP transition, dynamis delta or DSR thunders without a marker over their head. I suppose looking at party list debuff too hard for pf ppl as well.
Imho allowing it to exist in the end just lowers the skillset needed to clear the fight.
It's not like these mechanics are impossible to do without. But noone even wants to try. When we tried to pf one guy to do our no am wroth strat in DSR people were on most part mocking the strat, laughing or leaving.
Or even worse you set a pf to do stuff without AM but some guy will join and still activate it mid fight. Actually insane.
And I saw lately it's leaking into the savage fights as well, AM on P9S soon pf standard?
I can see where both of Xeems and Arthars is coming from. I don't think Xeno wants 3rd party progrem to go crazy or be normalized. My guess is that Xeno wants the raid to desinged in a way that doesn't require crazy skill or addons
It's a mmorpg. No fight period should ever require either of those. Anytime a fight can only be cleared by the top 1 percent of players. It's a badly designed fight imo.
It will never work. As soon as addons are normalized people will start crying that content is to easy. Raising the difficulty until we are in the same place as WoW in which addons are a requirement.
I’m not really brothered by people cheating but having them crying content is to easy is the dumbest shit ever in my option…
@@LuminateTheWorlddepends on the content xd. I agree that that shouldn’t happen with savage but ultima is supposed to be for the 1%. Not cuz the dev team wanted it but cuz the people asked for that 1% challenge.
@@luckytanuki5449 No. If a fight demands cheating to be completed outside of status. It needs to be toned down or designed better.
@@sirnonsense5033people? Lmfao 98 percent of people in this game either do just msq or sit around in limsa
I think auto markers are a huge problem. Right now it may not seem so, but as it's usage becomes normalized, it'll start to become the norm and a requirement. See how fucking bloated and absurd WOW raids are nowadays due to people getting more and more used with addons that would trevialize more and more of game mechanics, making the developers run an arms race against addons, where in the end the fights get insanely hard, too complicated, to a point that they're IMPOSSIBLE to play without addons/wakauras. Don't let this kind of shit happen to FFXIV.
People who didn't play both games can't see just how bad this could get. One of FF14s greatest qualities is it's anti mod stance.
@@OldManInternet Exactly!
I am glad other people see the same. Exactly what I am thinking
@@OldManInternetI’ve played both games and I feel iffy even having ACT up. I want to and enjoy playing ff14 in large part because i can play and learn fights and raid without having constant alerts and weakauras covering my screen. It’s on me to memorise and read the fight, not 5 alerts.
Delusional fearmongering
idk why people think AM is some kind of automatic totem dispenser bc it's just not. Being in enough pfs with and without AM in the fights that typically use it will clearly tell you
LPDU basically uses AM for DSR Wroth, most "reclear" parties still either wipe to meteors or p3 in general, most don't even get to wroth.
right and wrong. Yes, having AM doesn't automatically clear the fight for you if you cant even get to the part where you need to use AM, which is P5.
Without AM, some people couldn't even clear P5, so that's what is wrong with your statement.
If you get to the AM mech, at least in NA PF, you've got a damn good party
@@ampur2 for P5 is it for death or wrath?
For wrath : how dumb can you be just for not looking your own debuff?
For death : I can see why if they are doing DOTH with full adjust and not the conga line, I tried first like that and it was miserable and then we changed to the line to clear all of this mess
@@xehant7319 I think he's talking about TOP's P5, not DSR one. For WOTH & DOTH, because the fight is well designed, you don't need to, the game already puts on your head a bright thing telling you what to do. For DSR's Wroth of flames, i'd say that automarkers in PF's are more an additionnal security, cause if you were doing the fight via a group & vocal, you could easily warn someone who's not going to the correct spot considering the prio system.
28:45 theres actually a "Tactic" in WoW for the naxxramas raid similar to this strat. during the "Heigan the unclean" fight. known as "The Safety Dance" at the start of the fight you'd ask your raid "Who knows how to dance?" and the guys who say no you get them to just stand outside the boss fight and not even participate.. eventually getting killed by the bosses Damage. whilst players who do know "How to dance" fight the boss. the dance is litterally just avoiding aoe damage in a pattern but requires pretty quick movement.
i played in jp and they DO use AM too, they just dont tell in the pf descrip like NA does
elemental or mana/gaia . depends on which server u're tho
I dont agree with Xeno about this being wrong when company ban someone for using something what is not allowed and then added to the game, it's not wrong for banning players for using something what is not allowed but the same time adding it to the game because it would be helpful for players. What will happen if squarenix would not ban those players would give wave of another players openly using mods what are clearly wrong and harmful to the game, crying why they get banned when other person don't.
I haven't done ToP myself, I saw the world race and that was about it. I don't remember what P5 was. I kinda wish that Xeno would explain how the mechanic works and why AM (in PF) is mandatory, at least from his perspective.
P5 of TOP is just a series of three trio mechanics -- Delta, Sigma, and Omega. You don't need AM for Delta, but it's basically required for Sigma and Omega because everyone in the party has to position in incredibly precise spots for the mechanics to resolve correctly, and each person's respective spot is determined by following a fairly dense mechanical logic. So world prog groups would designate one or two people to mark players and you would use those marks to determine your spots. AM just automates that process.
There is are 2 parts that cause an issue to where people will use auto markers. There is a point in sigma where the party will split into 2 groups. One group of 3 and one group of 5. The group of 3 cannot have hello near or far as well and the two people taking the beams need to have at least 1 stack of dynamis. After sigma everyone must have 1 or 2 stacks of dynamis. During omega 4 people are marked. 2 far and 2 nears. There is also 2 baited aoes that are required to be taken by 2 people who do not have the first far or near going off and already have 2 stacks as everyone needs 2 stacks after the 3rd set of jumps (2 people with have 3) . Another issue that may happen is that if you have the delayed far or near and you already have 2 stacks of dynamis you need to take the baited aoe to avoid getting 3 stacks since your debuff later will give you the 3 you need. Vice versa if you have delayed far or near and you have 1 stack you must not take the baited aoe so that you have 2 stacks and end with 3 after your debuff goes off. Again So that going into the final set. 2 people have 3 stacks (and no near or far debuff) and everyone else has 2 stacks
so in P5 (after delta) your position during the mechanic matters base on the number of stack of dynamis that you have. for example.
1 player who has no static of dynamis will go towards female omega. and 2 player who also has 1 stack of dynamis will also go to omega female along side the person who has no stack. here the proble,. there are 5 people in totall who has 1 stack of dynamis. how do you know that you're the person who goes to omega female because you have 1 stack, but the other people also has one. so static make a priority for this mechanic. but PF does not have any of that. the AM will auto mark everyone and you simply follow the rule. AM completely remove the extra dificulty of thinking where to go/stand base on the amount of stack you have. you simply ignored all of this and follow the AM. making p5 way easier
if they want people to stop using noclippy/alex, then they should fix the problem in the first place instead of spending their time and energy telling people not to use it, no matter how janky and messed up their coding is. it's their problem as a developer, and it's hindering players.
also remember when arthars uses cactbot? ribide ribide? yeah, fucking hypocrite.
Im too afrait to ask but tf is ribide ribide?
@@DantoriusD it's living dead but being pronounced in japanese, but idk why he uses it for in DSR. there's also "twitch prime" but again idk what mechanic he uses it for in DSR. what i know is he used it on DSR world race
i would actually be so happy if they did it... playing from south america to na servers blows dicks and i REQUIRE alex/noclippy to raid as lord intended the gameplay loop
From a perspective of someone who doesn't know coding. Alexander is straight up black magic voodoo shit like what do you mean I can play like I have low ping without low ping?
on god. no clippy is mandatory because the game's code is so shit.
I cleared DSR and TOP within a month of release, no AM. DSR is better designed but it's boring. I like TOP a lot but p5 dynamis Omega is really bad and should be never done again.
Sigma is a very slow mechanic and you can do it no problem with a simple priority system by role and group. You dont need AM for sigma. Omega is far, far too busy and quick to dicern where you need to go for the first pass.
I'm my opinion, the developers should just automark players for responsibilities during fast, complex mechanics. Doing this, you can make players perform more and you can design the mechanics to execute faster whilst getting rid of AMs significance.
So how many people here have taken the time to read about the logic behind Dynamis Sigma and Omega? It's not hard to understand but I'm willing to bet a vast majority of the players here haven't even tried solely because AM exists. There's no way anyone's gonna convince me otherwise.
The mechanics suck in that they lack visual clarity (looking at a debuff bar when you want to look at the fight absolutely sucks and this applies to Wroth Flames too), I'm not arguing that. But there's a pretty big difference between understanding the mechanic even if it's only 1 person or 2 marking other players, and entirely removing the mental stack by turning the mechanic into basically fixed positions based off the marker on your head that's placed automatically.
i think arthars main point is that am is a slippery slope now its seen as acceptable behaviour for top pf but what if it does not end there what if one day god forbid it fucking bleeds into savage i know its a meme but theres this video of people using am in p9s limitcut which is dumb af i know but the point is when the day comes where the community is okay with using am for savage and it becomes the norm the majority will opt to join pfs with am in the description and the people who want to do it without and actually learn how to do mechanics are shit out of luck and this game will be like wow i know its hyperbole but it could happen
It will happen given enough space and time as every rot does.
People and I say in the general sense . People will ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance. If something can make a fight easier, it will be used.
@@coaster1235 Because the prio is pretty easy to adjust to, you only have so many places you can go, AM tends to only get used as the amount of variance for where players can adjust and time to do it goes down. If it was just about making the fight brain dead AM would be used in phases 2, 3, and 5 of DSR and yet it's only used in P6. It's not really clear cut when AM will become popular for a mechanic but aside from TOP, PF can usually do okay without it.
Can’t even call it a hyperbole. There’s already comments here that say “just make your own no AM groups because it’s normal to have AM”
It’s not a stretch to see that becoming “just make your own no AM groups for savage because it’s normal to have AM”
Eventually it becomes wow of “what the hell are you doing not using bigwigs/dbm?”
If you give combat addons an inch then they will take a mile and the game will become WoW where they are expected, but worse since two whole playerbases can't use them if they wanted to.
For some reason people can't accept that mods would ruin FF14 if they became commonplace like they did in WoW. They make dishonest arguments about the community and how the games are different rather than engaging in common sense.
Exactly that. If the game reaches that point, you can safely be sure, that you are going to kiss console players goodbye.
Become WoW? when it comes to ultimates it already is, these mfers modded out the wazzo.
This is exactly why the plugin injection Dalamud has the Plugin Browser, and why they've actively been making their rules stricter over the years. They don't block unauthorized plugins outright because it stifles mod development, but at the same time they don't list any plugins that violate the terms of service more explicitly. Glamourer violates ToS as it bypasses Fantasia and certain glamour restrictions. And most combat plugins like the zoom hack offer a blatantly unfair advantage with no "accessibility" justification.
This is such a dishonest take. WoW addons are limited by the API that Blizzard has given players access to and they have many times changed what is or isn't allowed. If anything mods in FF14 will be worse because its not limited to the API. Most mods used by people are cosmetic or QOL stuff. I didnt know the mod I use to fix my viera ear physics because SQEX is still developing for a shit console so anything above 60 FPS get physics turned off is cheating. You want to be offended so badly that its funny.
I love Xenos and Arthars relationship. They are such homies but still disagree with each other. Those are the type of friends you keep for life
For my UWU clear in PF, we did manual markers. We designated a player with a number and then made a macro to make that number appear during gaols. So we would see who has the gaols marker, pop that macro, smaller number close to Titan, larger number furthest away. It had a few more steps but got the job done.
It has one more step, click button.
Same, our priority was both tanks had circle (zero), and everyone else was assigned numbers from 1 to 6 (triangle was 6, like an up arrow, since enemy signs only went up to 5 at the time). Gaols went out, press the button, and you're in front middle or back depending on your ordering. Literally the same thing as automarker or an ACT callout plugin.
You can also just do it like the automarker itself does it. Make a priority list and play it. Everyone who is getting a gaol gets a yellow circle around them. If you have one you run forward. Melees are usually front. Let's say you are reaper, and your co-melee is dragoon. Reaper always has higher priority. So if you are reaper and you see the tank running with you, you are two. If also the other melee is running with you, you are still two. And the dragoon is 3.
and in the worst case, just spontaneously adjust. It's really not that difficult. You have plenty of time if you know what you are doing.
I think personally, I feel like at the end of the day it really doesn't matter, and you're just defining your own experience. Who uses and doesn't use mods to clear a fight really isn't impacting your personal experience, Imho.
However, I do think with some mods like Noclippy, or things that just fix Potions/Sprint, that should just be baseline in the game. There's literally no value to not having them turned on and they just make the game a universally better experience. I've been doing deep dungeon prog, and trying to adapt to my Healing Potions input logic being so different then every other ability after using Redirect for DPS potions/Sprint for so long is the most obnoxious shit to me. Losing 5 hours of progress because xd you pressed your potion 0.2 too soon is just awful design.
Isn’t Arthur’s party leader the person that rmt to clear for someone on their account and has been banned before but just comes back?
culul?? huh?? proof?
neither a fan or hater of arthars. but isnt his problem is that people are advertising AM so openly in PF instead of AM itself?
i thought thats what this whole thing was
Yeah, a couple days ago Arthars said on stream Xeno reacted out of context but at the end of the day both him and Arthars think AM is cheating which is Arthars' main point.
@@teo1120 yea, iread a few of the tweets and immediately realised that he have "no issue" with cheating.
He only have an issue if it is so openly advertised/plastered in pf description
Have people cleared TOP in PF without P5 auto markers and not being in discord? I don’t think it’s possible without talking in discord, unless every player has gotten every possible pattern and they know what to do just by looking, highly unlikely though.
Wish the stream sounds would be turned off during these talks lol
lol easy solution is SE implements anti cheat, but probably with the way the game is coded, it would be a huge rewrite which wouldn’t be in budget, plus they’d lose most of the playerbase (character mods).
ye 90% of ppl who would get hit with anticheat aren't even raiders to begin with. Ye go get that Miqote permabanned for a tattoo or the other guy for a beardmod. Wonder how the outrage would be if people lose their houses and 5-10year+ accounts permanently with the introduction of anti cheat.
People think that AM is the deciding factor if people would clear ultimates are coping hard. These are all good players and AM is a minor factor for people who want to clear ults. It would simply kill PF, enforce statics and get rid of prob more than half of the RP scene
Idc about anti cheat all this drama just gonna make automarkers in the game with a patch. I’m sure most of these mods will just be added in base game eventually
Unless it’s a competition with some form of reward I 100% couldn’t care less what add-one you use if the groups fine with it. People buy clears so I genuinely don’t see outside of personal accomplishment why it matters.
That's exactly why the game gets worse. Terrible attitude.
@@TheOneGreatyes because of megawaffle612 and others with similar attitude the game gets worse, not because the devs design stupid shit
@@fabolousjada5070what are you talking about
@@cobbiie It's called pushing the envelope. The fact people think it is proves my point. If you use add-ons for fighting you're cheating. It's that simple.
@@cobbiie My “attitude” is not caring what a group collectively agrees is fine and doing it so long as it’s not in a competitive setting (rewards, fame, etc). It’s absolutely cheating but it’s also been around for ages. Unless the Devs decide to go against it, it isn’t my job to police other people’s play. Fail to see how that’s “bad attitude”.
arthars going on about how ultimates are his fav content and then acting like he's going to tell Yoshi P about AM (as if he doesn't already know about it) who then might be so disappointed about the use of AM that he then stops making his supposed fav content has to be one of the most smooth-brain, low IQ takes I have ever seen regarding this game.
you must be so fucking deluded if you think arthars showing yoship would push him to not making ultimates lmao
Titan gaols is doable without AM. It is also failable even with AM.
It's one of the most stupidly designed mechanics in the game.
I'd rather they fix the mechanic than ban AM.
The number of times I watch someone stand a pixel too far from where they need to, causing a wipe, is too many
@@fabolousjada5070 Great example of a comment that has nothing to do with what I said. But I'll humor you: console players also benefit from AM so your argument is useless. In fact, your comment makes it seem like you have never done uwu, especially not in pf.
@@bluumberrylmfao stg. The people who act like AM dispenses a free totem for uwu probably just fish all day and do nothing else in the game
I know this is way late cause i just came across this video but does everyone forget that console exists? That is why they don’t want to be okay with add-ons because SE does not want console players to be pushed out of doing content when players start saying “must have this and that add-on”. SE HAS to beat all content without add-ons because console players have to be able to do content without add-ons. Not saying that add-ons are bad but the difference is that PC players have a choice to use them or not…console does not have that choice.
(Long post warning) I see a lot of people including Xeno say you either use AM or make 1-2 people mark everyone else, but that is not correct. Making 1-2 people have that much responsibility is a bad solution and it's just a bandaid that world proggers came up with in order to prog the fight as fast as possible. Like Xeno said, that would be miserable for those 1-2 people. Instead, you can either do self-mark macro strat, or body language + prio system or mix of both to do TOP p5 with zero voice comms. Debuffs for sigma and omega appear at the very start of the mechanic, and the game gives you enough time to flex to different locations and do lineups to signify the order. There are even ways to assign the dynamis stacks by having people flex positions during delta.
The reality is that pf would rather not waste time learning how to do the fight properly, and the talk about "bad design" is a reasoning to justify why they don't want to waste time. After all, who decided that having to read party list debuffs and flexing prios is a bad design in MMOs? Xeno said TOP is a horribly designed fight so many times in the video, but when you look for actual reasoning on why it's a bad design, he names bugs, dps checks, not being fun to prog and 1 person marking everyone else. None of that has anything to do with the actual mechanic in p5 (except for 1 person marking but that's just a bad solution).
The point is, "bad design" is arbitrary and often just another way of saying "too hard". For example, from my point of view, having to look at M/F, eye, tether and playstation in party synergy is no different than having to look at party list for debuffs, and having to look at people for body language. Now to be fair, I do think there is one actual bad design in the game, and that is the fact that you cannot hard-fix the party list as a team because you are always at the top. But I never hear reasonings like this when people say "bad design". Case in point, I used to think party synergy is impossibly hard, but now I can do it in a second due to practice. P5 will be exactly the same just like literally anything else in this game, if people only gave it a chance without AM. Except that will increase prog time by several months... and suddenly TOP p5 is bad design. People come to recognise and react to tells and debuffs in this game instantly, but for some reason that is not going to happen in p5? I don't buy that at all. Same thing with learning non-AM strats - people can spreadsheet and memorise their GCDs for the entire fight, but they can't learn a slightly modified strat? There is no way that is true.
Saying AMs are virtually mandatory sets a bad precedent. In principle, there is no difference between using AM for TOP p5 and using AM for expert roulette mechanics. It's just based on what the majority thinks "bad design" is. And since AM forces the markers on everyone rather than only appearing on the user's screen, it hard caps the mechanic ceiling for everyone based on AM user's opinion of the fight. In other words, it cheapens the experience for someone else who would rather do the mechanic themselves. Not only that, but I'd argue it also robs the opportunity of the progger to overcome a difficult mechanic. This is not a good way forward for the game overall - it will lead to one person thinking you don't need any markers period, and another thinking you need AMs for every mechanic and they're incompatible because AMs just force markers on everyone.
Lastly, if done without AM, TOP is probably the hardest fight in the game. But the entire point of an ultimate is to be the hardest content in the game, an aspirational content. If the community looks at a difficult fight and arbitrarily decides that it's too hard / unfun so making it easier is justified - then what is the point of making difficult fights in the first place? Now to play devil's advocate - I heard that Gordias was too difficult and it killed the raiding scene back in the day. So if we're talking about accessibility, then I could see the argument there. But even in that case, I would argue the healthy solution isn't to dumb the fight down, but to learn better strats as a community and become better players. Encourage players to overcome a mechanic that is too hard in an aspirational content, instead of calling it "bad design" and forcing it to be easier just so they can clear it. To me that is losing a lot of the journey to reach the destination. But obviously all of this is subjective
That being said, everything Xeno said in the video last year came true about AM becoming mandatory in pf. But you have to wonder how much of that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. AMs are self-perpetuating. Once people start using them, the more people become reliant on them and the less they know the actual mechanics. And because less people know the mechanics, the more pf will come to rely on AMs.
TL;DR fundamentally disagree with Xeno saying you have to use AM or make 1-2 people mark everyone else in p5. But it's all subjective and he is right about many things too
The problem is that it gives a massive advantage to those in statics. That’s what makes it bad design. Yeah, you can do a vastly harder strategy, but those in statics have a massive advantage as they can consistently have someone mark everyone. AM is pfs solution to put themselves on statics levels of consistency. I don’t like automarkers, and would rather they not be there, but ultimately, pf will resort to any solutions to even the playing field.
you say this cause you haven't even done p5 nor learned the mechanic. Party syngery, p3, monitors are COMPLETELY different than Omega and esp pt2 without voicechat.
You type so much, just like most people. Out of lack of knowledge and experience. You basically talk about sth you have no clue about. You do not give 1 person the responsibility to ease the mech on 7 others. It's 1 person doing because even 2 people who aren't in sync (as in voice) have a high chance to mess it up for each other.
Go clear TOP without AM and NO voicechat. I wonder if you would get this done before 2026.
Arthar's take about needing addons for wow, look at world first prog in wow and see howmany addons are needed to clear a mythic raid 😂
21:35 About shout out to the mods
If I were in the shoes of SE, that would be a stupid idea because "You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can be used against you"
It will be like an act of admission of mods making the game better than them and will make the players to demand more aggressively the implementation of mods ingame not just hoping the mod will become first party tool.
Perhaps the only devs that 'test' the fights should be ones that didn't work on the fight, don't know the mechanics and play as many different jobs as possible across 2 or 3 groups without voice chat, to test if it is doable by strangers in PF.
That is exactly how I felt. That TOP became genuinely enjoyable due to AM. I would've cleared the fight 10x+ less if it wouldn't be for AM. It was very fun to clear and help people clear on patch in PF.
From so many statics I've been it, there always seem to be a real hate for PF or pf players almost to absurd levels. So I guess a lot of hate also comes from here. Noone can convince me that TOP is "easier" with AM than it is in a static in discord with voice. I've 10 clears with my static. So if you think so better bring some real argument besides "you bad".
I was talking about this TOP P5 issue with my static a little while ago. I think if they made the Dynamis stacks have a visual effect on your character model it would significantly reduce the need for the automarkers. For example, it could have and aura that is a different color depending on how many stacks a character has, so you could look at your party and at a glance know how many stacks each person has. AM is effectively being used to compensate for FFXIV's user interface not giving the information in a way that's readable fast enough.
I don't really see why it's important if WF raiders use it or not, it is irrelevant who is using it if your opinion is that it is bad overall. In the case of "WF raiders cheat" - they get caught too - and the developers have reacted in increasing potency each time. Changing the game in TEA, bans in DSR and actual removal of clears in TOP alongside bans. Simply stating that they do it too does nothing to address Arthar's concerns about yoship's statement. It is stated very clearly that if people continue removing the challenge involved by cheating they do not see the point in creating the challenge in the first place.
TOP P5 is absoutely bad design on the fight developer's part, adding a few restrictions and patterns around who can receive what buffs/debuffs would make this mechanic both more interesting, learnable and solvable. We are seeing more and more mechanics which are fully random in ultimates, and there is only so much priority systems can handle before they become too complicated to be expected of the raiding part of the playerbase.
However, TOP P5's existence isn't an excuse to use AM, it is only a reason, and Arthar's opinion isn't "wrong". The amount of accepted cheating is steadily increasing and it will eventually come to a head.
players call am cheating then go use raid sim lmao. remember SE was going to put a "practice a phase" in back in the day, the community hated it and they decided it would trivialize the fight and not the intended way to learn the fight so they decided not to. whatever play how you want work smarter not harder, no one gonna look back on their death bed and be like yeah i rocked it in ffxiv, who cares enjoy things how you want
You have a wow problem here where mods are being forced on other people because it makes shit better/easier and the fact that FF mods are unregulated means they can be so much more powerful that anything in WoW. If anyone just decides to put effort into it
So Xeems is fine with a open note test and not Arthars. Did I get that right?
Dude has been going absolute HAM on twitter recently. Like comparing Mare to boss triggers....
lol, lmao even.
(Random ppl mention AM)
Arthurs *Proceeds to make a 10 hour documentary to try and get a point across* lmao XD
I'm currently progging TOP, and when we don't have a full static we fill spots using PF. We don't use AM for anything at all, for that p5 mechanic we self-mark, and there is plenty of time to do this in the leadup to when they're needed. Some players we find in PF literally can't do the fight without AM, and it's pretty frustrating. I agree though that the design of some of these mechanics is bad; it's stupid having to look at your debuffs constantly and use that to dictate what you should do, rather than having some visual cue in game. I hate mechanics where there is no visual cue ("just look at debuffs lol"), it's dumb, and I feel like this sort of thing is what pushes people towards using AM. Basically, we're at an impass; the mechanic is fucked, but possible; should we use AM to make it better? I wish AM wasn't the preferred way to do that mechanic, and there are quite a few players in PF who apparently agree, sometimes I come across a group where only one person wants it, or even nobody. I guess I just hope squeenix takes the feedback on board and recognises the problems with the way the mechanic is designed, and how to change their design strategy to make mechanics difficult whilst not also making AM such an easy win that PF defaults to using AM to solve it.
I really don't think we should be okay with world-first groups cheating, and we shouldn't justify AM just because world-first groups use them. If we're calling AM cheating and telling PF to stop using AM, then we should apply the same logic to world-first groups, absolutely. Decide if AM is cheating or not and apply the same logic across the board to every player and every group.
most people simply don't care, since it doesn't affect them.
for example, using AM for p5 ToP is just a convenience, most people will learn the mechanic, but it's either, 2 people mark everyone (good luck advertising that in PF) or you get AM to do it for you, at the end of the day, AM is 3rd party and interacts directly with the game, there for not allowed in the ToS.
but the problem is, this ToS is so black and white that EVERYTHING falls under this.
ACT? even if you purely use it for your own improvement, that's literally cheating, since you're not suppose to see what your DPS is. (stupid AF, don't get me wrong)
chat bubbles? dear god! stop this man!
being able to see the entire pull timer? OH NO! (yes, I use this, can easily play without, but the fact that 1, the pulltimer on screen is inaccurate, since the pull starts at 1 instead of 0 and you only see starting from 5 seconds, RDM for example needs to hard cast around 5.3-5.4 seconds, aka you're always late)
honestly, unless SE finds a way to monitor what is being done to the game without monitoring what's on your PC, this isn't going away, and it doesn't affect me enough to give a shit about.
world first uses plugins? tell me what top athlete doesn't use some technicality or something illegal without getting caught, is it right? nope, but at the end of the day, this is a video game, world 1st is literally just bragging rights, it's not like WoW where there can actually be a price pool.
Granted, SE could release a client specifically for world 1st racers that they NEED to use and that can monitor much more, also see impossible plays and live record it so that any SE admin could jump in and review what's going on.
@@romualdgarcia7236 macros work if you get everyone to accept a standerized macro, if any starts self marking while others use a macro, shits ruined, youd need to agree.
i've used self marking for 90% of my prog for uwu, and it worked great for a static. As soon as you get into PF the coordination just falls apart (my static fell apart so I had to go into PF). Honestly I hate mechs where self marking is a thing its just a waste of time in my personal opinion. i hate looking at debuffs too but it is what it is, and ik its not going away so its whatever. Honestly I'm fine with AM because its the same thing as having a raid leader call out a mech. Im not okay with like cactpot telling you each and every mechs because you can learn it easily. like the amount of guides I rewatch for savage and ultimate is a lot. AM is just convenient with marking.
PF people not necessarily know self-marker strat, like lpdu says "one guy marks everyone", so light pf doesn't know alternatives honestly. Which is a shame, and I hoped lpdu would come up with something else instead
@@DarkDyllon Yeah it's kinda fucked. Also dude you're completely right about the pull timer for RDM. I main RDM and I created a couple of audio files with metronome-like clicks to count me in to the 5s mark, triggered whenever the countdown shows up in chat. For example if someone starts a countdown at 15s, I get clicks starting at 10s, so I can hit ~5s perfectly every time. For anyone else it seems like the weirdest shit, it only seems to make sense to people who play RDM. It's one of a dozen little QoL things that we can only hope SE notices and implements something so third-party isn't required.
Good take. I really don’t like automarkers, but it is incredibly predictable what type of mechanic they end up getting required for by pfs, so getting rid of them is as simple as not putting that type of mechanic in fights.
Or you know, the community could stop cheating and just learn techniques to handle them.. like they did with other mechanics.
@@MaakaSakuranbo you have never cleared TOP so why are you talking
@@Bankai90 As if people only use it for TOP
Good joke
@@MaakaSakuranbo no, but the main debacle is about TOP and why AM becomes more prevalent. If TOP omega would have been MORE difficult with 2 more prios during omega. I can bet my left nut AM would've at least on EU not been used till many many months later. You simply don't understand the mech to understand why AM started being used in TOP.
And this is the issue, ofc when people start using it for 1 thing. It's easy to then go ahead and use it for Sigma too. Or darn, add Delta too. Or you know what, maybe p3 or monitors too. It all goes too far from 1 major design flaw in 1 mechanic.
So you know, maybe just test your game before sending it out. TOP omega is a disaster unless you're in voice. If you think every single PF will be in voice for a prog and/or potential clear that's just delusional
@@fabolousjada5070 the brief moment of omega pt2 where 4 people have the same option to go to the same place while 4 others are taking position during the same moment will ALWAYS be hard no matter how much you understand the mechanic. It becomes absolutely trivial when you're in voice. But if you're not it becomes absolutely messy and is comparable to UWU gaols.
Just that the difference is that now you're not 4min into an easy fight but 16min in the hardest ult up to date.
Ive done UwU with AM, since thats just how ive learned it, I wasnt told theres other viable options xD In TOP I knew theres other options, but it seemed ass, it felt required and with it it was almost fun
Deep down id like the fights to be solveable without that much hassle, like a middle spot between UwU and TOP, so we odnt incorporate thirdparty in too much
With the part bout writing it in pf, if I join a pf, id like to know if they use it or not, I was quite upset to have gotten my BLU Clears with a group that used Cactbot. The leader just repeated in vc what Cactpot told him, I thought he just knows and calls it out, it didnt feel earned..if i knew he uses that, I wouldnt have joined
Okay I have to ask. Being a PS player and not an ultimate raider, I don't know the answer. When Xeno asks, "how is one player putting markers over your head different than auto markers?" I can see that, if a player does the mark, it takes them time and brainpower to solve the mechanic. Does automarker also require a person's input time and brainpower?
If it solves the mechanic so that nobody has to risk losing a GCD, then I would think that is completely different. But if it marks spots on the map, and each player then has to interpret which marker to go to, then that stilk requires player input and bainpower. But if it marks each player and marks the map so people only need to react to a non-human solved input, then I don't buy into the argument that these two thinfa are the same.
Can someone explain what auto markers do and how they affect the solving of the mechanic?
Automarkers put the markers on players' heads automatically, yes. So in a mechanic where 3 random players get a debuff and have 5 seconds to go to a precise point on the map or the team wipes, automarker marks the players with the debuff and since they are different numbers, it's pre-arranged that 1 goes to the front spot, 2 in the middle, 3 in the back, so they just check the number on their head put there automatically and go to the space they need to. Without automarkers, the debuffed players would need to notice they have the debuffs, and based on the random order the debuff is assigned, have a predetermined priority system to know who goes to the 1/2/3 position, and check every player in their party list to see who has the debuff or not, and what is the priority for those 3 players in specific, in the span of 5 seconds. So yes, automarkers mean less brainpower, less time spent, and less difficulty. It reduces the mental load on the party. And, thus, in my mind, is cheating. A plugin like NoClippy, assumed it's in its default state where it just simulates the ping someone living near the servers would get, isn't cheating. The player still needs to put in as much effort as anyone else would, it just negates the bad netcode the game has and puts them in parity, not beyond, players who are more geographically located.
You didn't understand his point. He was trying to say that the mechanic is poorly designed, because the player who is being marked, does not need to understand the mechanic in order to solve it. No matter if he is marked by a bot or another player.
i think the reason that glam mods are banable just like other mods is because someone could turn their character into another games character or use assets from another game and if it gets out the company that actually owns the rights to it could sue SE and the other mods are mostly considered cheating because they make things easier than its currently suppose to be, even tiny, its still an advantage over others that dont have it, at that rate we should all be using bots because farming mats isnt fair to those who dont like doing it.
It’s not about cheating or not cheating to some people. It’s only about disobeying SE or not. Calling no clippy or alex cheats it’s just plain stupid.
Let's be clear: any advantage not built into the game that one person can have but others can't is cheating. That said, hopping into discord and having someone else tell you every single mechanic and you only get the clear because someone else told you is literally the same as having a bot do it. So yes it's cheating, but it's also a video game. With the exception of world first. I just can't be bothered to care. That's it. Even the devs essentially take that stance. Don't advertise stuff that's not a core part of the game. Don't stream something but not everyone can actually do. So if you don't bother anybody else or the devs you'll never be banned. Let's all remember that at the end of the Day, it's a video game. It's not even that competitive of a video game and for those that consider it competitive, they are all in fact cheating. The only time this comes up is when people are streaming world first and cheating to get the win, the day after world first Absolutely everybody just copies, whatever the winning strategy was. Not exactly ethical either huh?
19:22 ppl in my former FC actually think that way, we were raiding Ultimate together back then, there was a pretty shitty member that was bad at every perspective, so I suggested her to use cactbot or whatever that can remind her the mechanics, and they started hating on me. At that point, I knew it is waste of time so I quit.
And yes, these are the same ppl believe that the cosmetic mod are cheat
Saw this while twitter drama going down earlier, and the amount of people who arejust jumpiung the bandwagon on this is insane. legit people screaming that people using a beard mod should be perma banned
My group when we got to Titan we got an assigned number. If we had jail the lowest number went to the front and so on. Took a bit to get used to it but it worked.
I'll always be against any AM or anything like that not cuz i care about what others use but as it gets more popular it's expected of me to use them too. Get these in the game if they are supposed to be there or block them entirely if they are not to be in the game. I don't want to risk my PC by installing something a random guy somewhere made.
Especially if its not backed by any terms of agreement or policy tht u can fall back on should they misuse said program to harm ur PC, u are installing it of ur free volition stripin urself of any rights.
What's the JP strat for UwU Xeno is talking about at 8:37?
Can't find anything about it.
27:54 Here
Basically you have 4 people run into death wall forcing Titan's gaol RNG to 4 remain players. This strat wouldn't work if dps check these day ain't so forgiving.
I did this with my old static, you need to keep both healers and a rdm for raises. it's an extremely dumb strat that makes healers do way more work.
@@sneaky7615 Thank you. After Xeno mentioned the JP strat at 8:37, I immediately went to search for the strat before finishing the video because I got curious. Heh heh
p5 is easier than party synergy, progging party synergy is actually worse than progging p5 with AM
Me and my friends recently pfed dsr, no one had AM, so we just manually marked the stacks, used our eyes in wroth and we actually got prog, it’s perfectly doable without AM and it’s not even hard
Xeno, on Crystal people clear Titan Gaols in PF without markers and the way they do it is super simple. They just assign a 1-8 marker for each person. If you get gaol, hit your macro. Then line up in order after the 3 people hit their macro. It works really well. So if AM gets removed Gaols will be just fine. Unless they remove the ability to place player markers in combat.
we tried this before in my ultimate static, the issue was that if you use the same macro (that assigns the marker to attack) and you do it at the same time, you can override someone elses marker.
we had that a few times before we just opted for AM, where 2 people essentially pressed it around the same time and you saw 1 get the 1 marker, but it dissapeared to appear on someone else.
@@DarkDyllon that's not what he's saying. Every person get his own unique marker to mark themselve with.
Funny RP server actually do mechanic aint that ironic.
@@DarkDyllon So everyone gets a number 1-8. So no one has the same marker. Let’s say Gaol people are 2,5,8. They line up in order 2 first, 5 second, 8 third.
@@Xion-Rotti I know how the macro works, but we ran into the issue that the macro literally overwrite someone else's marker.
so for example me and someone else pressed it at the same time, I got the 1 marker and saw it dissapear to appear on someone else's head, this is unfortunately not fool proof.
Granted, making a priority system like UCOB with L1-4 and R1-4 could also work.
for example OT = 1, H1 = 2. H2= 3 and then the m1, m2, r1 and r2 obviously, this could make it easier overal.
The heavy reliance on debuffs we saw in TOP was absolutely horrendous. I get that it is "possible" to solve the P5 debuffs without AM, but it's just not a fun mechanic. Take away those debuffs and what do you have? A relatively difficult tether and bait phase with Delta, some near and far glitch solves with Sigma, and two predation dodges with Omega. This isn't terrible, but it's not an engaging phase. I want more of P6. Do that. Challenge my mit rotation on tank. Push my healing output on healer. Test my positioning knowledge on dps.
And this is completely ignoring the problem that my co-tank and I had in TOP, that being both of us are partially blind. My eyes take a long time to focus compared to most other people and things tend to blend. I can't tell near and far world apart at a glance, let alone tell if I have the short or long one on omega. Devs keep using tiny tells like the slight glow on Hrae and Nidd TBs in DSR, or the terrible quotes in UCOB Nael that make the fights inaccessible.
DSR and TEA are amazing fights with massive moving parts, tough and tight mechanics, and in the case of DSR, real knowledge of how your class works. Hopefully the devs are watching what's going on and design future fights with these things in mind.
One thing I hate about devs saying they tested the game is that there's no reason to believe their test are accurate enough for the wider audience. What I mean is like, them testing the game in house can't realistically take into consideration how ping effects the game because in house testing is likely LAN based or just so close to servers response times are super accurate. I play 14 with roughly 70ms ping, I have 1 friend that plays with 8ms ping, and another that plays at 200 ping with no clippy. I highly doubt the FF14 devs are taking into consideration ping differences so drastic when testing shit.
Then there's the fact that test environments can be entirely isolated compared to how the live build. You'll constantly hear devs, not just game devs pretty much all software devs, talk about how they're issues on the public/live build that weren't there on the test build and part is because test builds are just isolated sections compared to how it's apart of the live build. I don't doubt they test TOP but they likely tested ToP in an isolated environment because there's no way they wouldn't have caught the bugs.
L take, but still love you baldy.
Oking some third party, ok's it all is wild. World of warcraft allowed way too much 3rd party and it forced the devs to make a worse game. FF14 raiding is unique. Yes the devs have designed some bad mechs, but in totality FF raiding is the best on the market, flaws and all. Allowing 3rd party forces the devs to design around people using them would be bad for the game.
Arthars take is not great, but yours is just as bad.
Xeems always with the based takes. Arthars takes are blatantly bad and biased. Automarkers is cheating. no one is arguing against that, what we are arguing against is his biased opinion on how ONLY automarkers is cheat
ing, yet world first groups having 10 ppl in discord with 2 being a human cactpot and calling out their every single move isnt cheating, how using ACT to optimize dps which also is against the rules isnt cheating, even TPS used Paisley Park automated waymarks to clear tea. He's a hypocrite and on a crusade against ONLY PF when he should be looking into his own circle if he is so concerned about these things. Also if yoshi P takes automarkers, he is going to end up taking away your precious ACT as well i assure you.
@@estiniensenpai3355 woah alot of heat. AM is cheating, and that's bad. World first using third party is cheating, and that's bad. Baldy seems to be putting forth the suggestion that cheating is binary and if you allow any you should allow all. And that's what i disagree with. No cheating is better for the game. You will never stop all cheaters, they will find a way. I still don't think that excuses cheating. just because some will doesn't mean you open the flood gates and say well everyone can cheat then, just police yourself.
And the whole idea that you need to make difficult content accessible just because there are more people that play video games know is BS. Difficult content should be difficult content, and if you can't keep up, get good. Now, that's not to excuse bad design. Of course certain things are poorly designed, and I DO think the devs should do better to design things that don't need to be third party tool assisted. But just because they design something "too hard" doesn't give the all clear to go ahead and cheat. Make content difficult, don't dumb it down for the masses, and design stuff to be intuitive. DO NOT make "difficult content" easy just so more people can say they did difficult content.
Don't care. If world first and high end raiders are cheating, then everyone is allowed to cheat. You can't cherry pick what cheaters you hate, and what cheaters you will give a pass. Fk off with that
Cheating is cheating cope.
Usually the game marks your character in some way to solve mechanics, even number from 1 to 8, if the game doesn't give you this information by default there is a problem in the bossfight.
i really don't think the "i can't beleive WoW needs addon to play the game" crowd and the automarkers crowd have as much of an overlap he thinks they do.
The only thing SE would do to combat Auto Markers is to prevent marking during combat. The exact same reason we can't place way markers during combat now.
Why is the title "Arthars is wrong about Auto Markers" when word for word they said the same thing? "The problem isn't automarkers, it's the fight designs."
21:03 The problem with this outlook is it'll encourage more people to use more mods and make them public in an attempt to get the devs to see it. Because everyone will work under the assumption that their mod will be one of the ones FF14 will accept and roll into the game. And if the consequence of getting banned for using a mod is removed, then the streaming scene will just become a showcase for everything SqEx doesn't want the game to be about. If you want FF14 to become WoW, this would be the fastest path.
Saying that someone manually doing markers for people or doing raid callouts is the same as Cactbot and Automarkers is just intellectually dishonest. Is the function of a player not properly learning the mechanic because they're just being told what to do the same? Yes. But the main difference is it's an online, cooperative game, and interacting with other players to overcome challenges is the whole point. Different people having different strengths and weaknesses and contributing what they can to a group getting the fight cleared is the entire essence of the MMO. It's why these games exist in the first place.
At the end of the day, using combat assist mods is cheating. The individual subjective morality on the topic doesn't matter, and the only people who defend it are people who are cheating but still want to be taken seriously. If you play via satellite in Antarctica and you use Alex so you can still doubleweave, so be it. You've still cheated to get better results than most people playing the game outside of the west coast. Maybe at the next media tour YoshiP should be presented with a list of the mods people seem to think are acceptable, and see how many he agrees need to be rolled into the game, and how many he shoots down.
The problem with some of these takes is they make logical sense in a vacuum. And if FF14 was the first MMO ever made and we had no idea how the internet community would handle things, it would seem like reasonable arguments. But as history has shown us, every online multiplayer game that accepts mods and modding just ends up worse for it, because it gets to a point where too many people's line for what's acceptable is way too far. It becomes an arms race where people who know about and have access to the tools become infinitely better than people just trying to play the game and have a good time, and that's garbage. You can break the stuff up into a tier list and argue at what exact point stuff is or isn't ok, but you're always going to have people tapdancing around that line, or going past it anyway. SqEx would need to add 20% or so to their dev staff just to manage the mod situation properly, which would cost them millions of dollars. And that's why they're not interested.
That's the title because that is what will gets clicks
I personally think any 3rd party that affects other people's gameplay either in a good or a bad way shouldnt be in the game. Also one's that give you an advantage in a group type of setting. the only exception to this is voice chat
Calling voip an exception is extremely biased, because Voip can help more then auto markers, cactbot, and trigonommetry. Either all is bad, or none of it is, cherry picking which is good or isn't is stupid.
@@handles_are_idiotic because I believe every multiplayer game needs to have a form of voice chat. Unfortunate FFXIV doesn't have it but regardless if they add it or not people will still use discord anyways so I get why it's not in the game. It's not cherry picking but more in the lines of a "requirement" in multiplayer games in 2024 and beyond
@@gerpogi YOU believe multiplayer games need some sort of VC, Square enix doesn't. Going as far to say that Discord is third party (Which it is), so it doesn't make sense, regardless of what you believe, the rules are clear, and like i said, cherry picking is dumb. Either all is fine, or none of it is
@@tengille Yes, at a baseline SE designs their fights with no third party being needed (This includes Voip), now do they succeed in that? No, but the fact stands, I personally don't agree that Voip is in the same category as something like "bossmod" but it is, and exempting it from that category is cherry picking
Meanwhile Arthars playing with ACT, XIVAlexander and Triggers, along with who knows what else.
all you have to do is look at twitch and their stance on "mature" content. the moment ffxiv opens the door to one mod, you're going to get people constantly trying to test the line and before long we have full on weak aura's. I'm sorry, we can't trust the modders.
No look at WOW is perfect example. Where the Devs now expect you to be using mods and have work around fact people use Mods for Raids and such. That is can of worms if ff14 would slowly come to if allowed mods. *im fine with cosmetics or graphic mods.* but ones that intentionally make stuff easier for you in raids and such nah
Literal slippery slope fallacy.
@@MorryOnTheFence Slippery Slope Fallacies are ill definied, but even with accepted definitions the "consequence down the line" has to be improbable for it to actually be a fallacy.
But we've already seen multiple times how modders will shift and dominate the meta.
In fact automarkers being the topic of conversation has already shown me people using in P9S the freaking easiest current fight. Why would they not do this for every fight on the next raid tier if they already do it with the easiest in the current tier?
@@tengille nobody is seriously suggesting SE allow AM. The argument is that the fights should be better designed.
SE do not want to police it by either condoning or cracking down.
YoshiP does not want to talk about it, and clearly hates when he's forced to address it every time the community starts drama farming on it again.
The idea that Arthars is going to walk up to him at CN Fanfest and get action after a conversation might just be peak delusion.
@@MorryOnTheFenceSlippery slope as a term to counteract matters of consequence is such fucking bullshit. It's always the only argument when shit that would be defined as a "slippery slope" occurs time and time again. WOW IT'S ALMOST LIKE THE SLOPES ARE ACTUALLY SLIPPERY AND IT DOES IN FACT WORK THAT WAY.
If something is not and will not block something progressing in a certain direction, then it WILL progress in that direction. Water will erode the ground on the path of least resistance, it's not going to suddenly decide "actually I'm going to stop at this point in erosion specifically and not go any further"
No one should need outside tools that solve the mechanic for you and it should rely solely on the teamwork and skill of the team. If fights are TOO HARD as to not be able to do that, then they're too fucking hard or people are clearing who shouldn't. Simple as.
I love how literally none of this would have happened if they gave us like 3-5 more seconds to resolve the first near/far world after the omega dodges. I mean this is the developer who admit they playtest in god mode.
By all means take away AM, I know how to conga line, but i am NOT marking in by burst window, my gcd is 1.5.
The worst thing about Ultimate fights in FFXIV is that they throw out their design philosophy in giving you enough legible information to resolve mechanics. The main selling point of FFXIV over WoW that WoW is now trying to incorporate is giving you the actual tells and range of attacks, even if it's after it's resolved, just so that you know how to rectify your mistakes. Ultimates just throw all of that out the window by actually taking away the information that makes their encounter design more enjoyable than their competitors.
Wroth Flames wouldn't be the dumpster fire that makes PF bring automarkers if they gave enough legible information, either by giving you the debuffs before you have to start running, or by actually giving characters a marker above their head that denotes Hrae/Nidd marks so people know what debuff other people have. I know the actual intended strat to resolve it would be by rearranging everyone's party window to the exact same lineup and developing a priority system based on that, but you still have little time, and rearranging party windows just screws with healers (especially controller healers) who might prefer tanks in specific spots in the party window.
AM or no AM I don't really care, but Arthars suggesting Squenix are going to stop making Ultimate Raids because people are using PF AMs is hilarious.
Arthars is the king of bad takes. Hes always saying some dumb shit on stream. Guys such a hypocrite too, he uses triggers and when he was using that dumbass collar soundbar thing, you could literally hear it coming through his mic lmao.
I am so far removed from mods that when he said noclippy I tought it was something related to haircut and glam. Had to google the name lmao.
My mentality is that if AM is used, thats okay.
If a person uses a mod to help them complete a mechanic, thats okay.
Is using a mod considered cheating? Yes.
Does it discount my clear because somebody else or my group needs these mods to do well? No.
If I don't use mods it would just make my clear seem more rewarding. I would in full confidence just outright say "I'm just better." And you know what, I get the clear and thats what matters most to me.
In the case of AM where a fight isn't designed for the PF to be able to set and agree on priorities, I don't think its evil.
PF has set and agreed on priorities in other mechanics already
The issue with AM is, it will affect you. People can't explain prios, or you notice super fst auto marking or w/e. So either you have it and/or follow it, you indirectly use it via getting marked, or you basically can't play in that party
The TOS is written as a blanket statement so SE always has the power to ban without arguing why something may be cheating. They can just call the 3rd party clause and be done with it. Enforcing the TOS is a completely different matter altogether.
Plenty of people clear UWU on JP without doing the 4 player sac thing, they just call out their job or a number and everyone knows the priority system like we did it back before AM or the titan xml
I think for me I'm with arthars on it's really the fact that people always justify it, "You have no time" "it's too hard to see" "It's too hard to do without voice chat" etc. they are always finding a reason for it to be the game's fault so that their cheating is justified and/or acceptable. And a lot of these people in PF have never even *tried* to do the mechanic legit, it's not like they got stuck there and said "okay I guess we have to use AM" they just use it by default because from how it sounds it's either impossible or insanely difficult to do without it.
I also don't agree that you should expect PF to do it if world first raiders use cheats because world first raiders are in a race, they have a competitive incentive to clear.
Why do you get so butthurtt about how other people do something?
Can't speak for TOP as I haven't done much of it, but I've done Gaols and Wroth both with and without AM, it's equally easy for both. Neither of these mechanics are as difficult as people believe them to be, but AM is also not the enormous advantage people believe it to be.
defending world first racers cheating but when people who dont wanna race cheat it's an issue, classic, another hypocrite like arthars, except this time you don't even know the phase and still think your opinion matters..
@@patrickmcpartland1398 Because I like to pug between doing stuff with my static and if I don't want to use AM I literally cannot pug ultimates.
@@nicesnacks5015 I'm not defending racers for cheating, my point is simply that those people have more incentive to cheat and so you can't say "If racers have to do it, then of course casuals will!". The implication is that it's so hard that even the best players have to use cheats, but that's not the reason they use them, they use them because they want to WIN the race. It's like saying because steroid usage is so common in professional sports that you should expect everyone at your local park to be doping too. These are people who have egos and in the case of sponsored events, money on the line. It's still wrong to do.
If you wanna go there and get personal, I've cleared every ultimate and I've played the game since ARR so my UCoB and UwU clears were both in Stormblood before melon or even the ancient titan xml existed, I play on a vanilla client with Mudfish and I haven't bothered running ACT in years because someone else in my groups always does. The only Ultimate I've cleared off-patch was UCoB in 4.5 because it disbanded my original static. I can see from your channel that even with voice chat you needed automarker to clear TOP off patch, in a LPDU c41 (you are the 1) you are effectively the EU version of a Saus Legend. You were even the one nice enough to set up melon for your off patch DSR group too.
Why should I think YOUR opinion matters?
to be fair i cleared UwU with AM because there was no single party that wasn't using it on PF so i was forced upon it but neither i cared to much idk..., cleared TEA without using AM. had fun in both fights
After this video: we fixed all the dps checks in UwU in a hotfix
Usually agree with you but L take here Xeems. I don't disagree that the stance the devs have on third party tools is stupid, but that doesn't excuse AM usage even if the mechanic is bad. If I have to wall in titan jails I would, I just don't want to cheat. With how garbage the stance is on plugins, you have to draw the line in the sand yourself and abide by that. The shared space that is PF draws the line on AM and whatever your stance is, you'll have to accept this or don't pf UWU/TOP. This is what bothers people. I don't care if you cheat or not, I care that I cannot pf UWU/TOP because I don't want to cheat (again, not by SE standards but by my own).
You can always find a static that wont use AM!
For fuck's sake, the game itself gives you Auto markers for Hello World towers
automarkers are fine specially when my whole raid group plays with 300+ ping, it literally makes fights that would be impossible to clear, clearable. Saying that automaker is equivalent to gil hacks is such a ridiculous false equivalence too lol
I don't know what Auto Markers are and at this point I'm too afraid to ask
Its exactly what the Name suggests. It Marks the Player automatically when you have to solve a Mechanic thst requires a specific Order to solve.
Mod turns on, and the 1,2,3,4 and X,O and so on raid markers you can put on people automatically get asinged to people and basically kinda tell you were to stand on top of your head.