Experimental Lightweight Browning High Power
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- One of the handguns that resulted from the post-WW2 interest in standardizing arms among the future members of NATO was a lightweight version of the Canadian produced Browning High Power. Experiments began in 1947 to create first a lightened slide by milling out unnecessary material, and then additionally with the use of machined and cast aluminum alloy frames. The first major batch of guns consisted of six with milled alloy frames, with two each going to the Canadian, American, and British militaries for testing.
This would reveal that the guns were in general quite serviceable, except that the locking blocks tended to distort their mounting holes in the alloy frames under extended firing. The cast frames were generally unsuccessful, suffering from substantial durability problems. The program was cancelled in 1951 by the Canadian military, and the last United States interest was in 1952. The example in today’s video is one of the two milled frame guns sent to the US for testing.
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The US ordinance :
"Hey, the canadians sent us some prototype pistols"
"Cool, lets plink some surplus helmets with them"
I'm not seeing the problem there.
Really interesting; taking a hi-power from 1911 weight to glock weight in the fifties, without polymer.
could have also taken it to glock capacity too if they had realized they could increase the width of the magazine well by using the aluminum frame directly as the grip
@@alanfender123 but then it wouldn't take hp mags
In 1980/81, FN made 2000 aluminum framed High Powers for the Austrian Border Guards. Many of those were imported about 2010, 2011, and one of those is mine, right here in Arizona. So, Ian, that was not the end of the story for the aluminum High Powers!
Youre in Arizona, lend it to Ian to do a video on it ;)
kodiakkeith I think fn made more then 2000 because I live in Belgium and you see the aluminium framed ones very often, in fact: It think before they were replaced with the fn fiveseven, the whole military and police force used aluminium framed brownings, I'm 99% sure
Yes, I think additional orders went to various Belgian police agencies. Here in the US the only ones I've seen are these Austrian Border Guard models that came in about 7 years ago.
I'd be happy to lend it to him.
kodiakkeith send him a email
The standard Browning 9mm was my personal issue weapon for quite some time. It served me well ....rugged, good shooter, reasonable capacity, easy to maintain. I dont see the need to lighten it! Interesting all the same!
For anyone who might not know, Inglis was a home appliance manufacturer who took to making BREN guns and pistols during the war. They were in down town Toronto until the 70's or 80's and went back to making washing machines after the war.
5:40 "which they failed miserably"
Meanwhile, somewhere in the back someone bumps over a rack of very expensive antique rifles.
I've actually asked Ian what that noise was awhile ago (you hear it a lot in his RIA videos) and he said that it's actually just packing tape being used in a room that echos.
+Darkavatar, I'm sure that any of the employees over at RIA would take great care to never damage anything. On a video Ian posted like 4 years ago ("Rock Island Auction Delivery!"), you can see that the actual packages that RIA ship contain more packing tape and bubble wrap than actual rifle :).
The coincidence of the line spoken by Ian and the noise in the back just was too good to not make a joke about it.
bami2 And at 6:05 they add battle wear to a gun with a hammer ;-)
Haha yeah when I saw that I immediately thought of the scenario:
-noise
-Ian pauses to go kill the lousy oaf who knocked over something awesome
-returns to pick up where he left off
Thanks for keeping us metric guys in the loop Ian. That little annotation is very appreciated.
Lo-Weight Hi-Power
It's a beautiful design to begin with and these lightening cuts are really stylish. This looks like the slide was that of an original with the tangent sight considering how high those rear sights look even considering the cut out.
Still using Browning Hi-Powers today.
Carried one in Afghanistan. Great pistol!
I would suggest the HP (P-35) is the most influential auto pistol ever made. It's lockwork and double-stack magazine are nearly universal among modern auto pistols
hes probly in the british army they dont get to pick they just get issued high powers mate my dad carried one when he was in the army and he loves em
weird science might be Canadian, still widespread in it’s use in the CAF.
Yeah same but if I had to choose between it and a CZ, or even a glock, or literally anything else modern I am never ever entrusting my life to such a relic. Looks cool, but performance matters. It is time for a new service pistol. I would buy one too if they weren't such an exorbitant price.
@@B61Mod12 surplus ones in decent condition can be had for 450
Yesss... A Hi-Power video :) Love that gun. I own two, an original FN model with a lanyard loop and a Mauser Mod 80. And I have to say, that old FN is my favourite gun.
I love that I can search almost any firearm and find a forgotten weapons vid.
I'd say the hi-power was the first modern service pistol, it's double stack 9mm high capacity with a tilting barrel, it ticks all boxes.
sure the 1911 had the form factor, but it didn't have the capacity.
@@austinismadcrunk I've always wondered why Walther didn't make a double-stack P-38. Patent issues?
@@AshleyPomeroy Possibly.
Maybe it was the German experience with double-stack single-feed magazines in submachine guns that made them mistrustful of them. Alternately they may have felt that a backup weapon doesn't need a large capacity magazine.
@@AshleyPomeroy Because they were waiting for the Italians and Americans to to make it.
If you don't get the joke, that's okay.
I'm a simple man:
I see a Hi-Power in any form, I press like.
An excellent report, Ian. You and Hickok45 are the best on firearms issues. No BS, no hype, just good solid information.
Ian, another really excellent, insightful and fascinating look into bygone firearms development. Thank you so much. I love the Hi-Power. I find it so aesthetically pleasing and balanced.
As you can guess, I have one and it points so naturally and because of its weight is surprisingly pleasant to shoot. All the best, Rob
I competition shot the Hi Power as a British soldier, although it was not my personal weapon. I loved shooting it.
fascinating to think of the US adopting the .280 FAL and Hi-Power in the 50's and all of NATO standardizing on those (+ the MAG?).
Oh wow, it even has an RMR cut.
That's just what I thought.
I think a lot of us had that idea.
American testing: If repeatedly mag dumping, which gun can be dropped into a bucket to best heat water for use with rations?
British Testing: After repeated mag dumping, which gun can be dropped into a bucket of water to make tea with?
@@KageMinowara I suggest a Vickers.
that is such a nice voice. would be a good choice for audio books.
I've got a client at my work that has 6 or 7 Browning Hi Powers and they have the best recoil impulse of any pistol I've ever fired. It's a slow light impulse that is easy to control and makes follow up shots incredibly easy and accurate. The trigger could use work but the recoil is buttery smooth and awesome.
The high power is such a comfortable pistol to shoot. I shot a $2000 competition 1911 in 9mm that felt just like a high power with a trigger job.
Ah! the Browning Hi Power, my platonic love 😍 because I’m Mexican and the laws in my country about the possession of fire arms are too heavy... only .380 in pistols, .38 Spc in revolvers 😔 but thanks to this channels I can see interesting things about a guns and their histories! 😉
Yeah i was getting ready to say line the frame with steel rails etc and it might work a bit better.
I carried a sig p225 as a cop duty weapon for over 25 years.
actually I carried 2 as the first one cracked the aluminum lower after at k east 50 k rounds through it.
sig warranty provided my second one free of charge.
Finally a high power video. Now you'll have a reference point for that trigger linkage through the slide mechanism.
The later aluminum High Powers have an entirely different cam shape, and the slot cut on the barrel is different to accommodate that re-engineered bar. I would suppose that is due to lessons learned from this experimental model.
Well done Ian.Very well done indeed. A minor point, that Canada's flag was the red ensign until 1964.You chose the correct national flag of the period. Most would not know or care.But the old regimental officers I knew as a child served under the red ensign and cared very deeply indeed.Glad you did the homework.Patient attention to detail.Good for you.
paul manson noticed as well, thanks Ian indeed!
You learn something new every day, I guess that's why I get up. I have 3 different Hi-Powers, one in .40 S&W. I totally love Hi-Powers, no better ergonomic gun ever made & in my opinion thee last eloquent firearm ever manufactured. Been studying them for years, but never knew about this program. Thankyou for the info. I still carry an HP-35 in my concealed carry rotation to this day.
And he was the very model of modern major general with that pistol!
my dad carried a browning high power when his regiment did a guard for the queen at some parade back in 2007
Your videos are so interesting and so detailed in the information you provide. I'm proud to support you on Patreon.
I have never heard or read the word ameliorate before your videos. There were a few others I can't remember.
Canadians: hey guys, how is the lighter hi power? You prefer the weight and recoil over your 1911s? Is the aluminum frame durable enough?
Americans: yeah man it’s great, love the penetration power
Canadians: .....errr, yeah, that’s cool I suppose
I can't carry a service sized all steel pistol for very long comfortably. I had a S&W 4006 full size all stainless steel pistol. It shot well but was terrible to carry even in a good holster. My Sig M11-A1 is about the same size but much less bothersome to carry.
The British military adopted one of the sig sauer pistols (can't remember the model) and a few years ago I heard they were basically taking it out of service because they found that the slide was wearing away the frames of them,now it's mostly just the Glock,the Hi-power is sadly out of service
Anthony Williams To be fair, the Sigs were emergency acquisition. So it was more to solve the 'we need pistols and we needed it yesterday' problem than actually replacing the Browning GP.
Anthony Williams the Glock 17 replaced all the hi powers and sigs
the browning high power and the HK USP are my two great love.
I was very curious about Major General AJH Cassels. It turns out he was the commander of the Commonwealth Division in Korea and he went on to become the UK Chief of the General Staff, the head of UK armed forces! He landed in NW Europe shortly after June 6th 1944, taking part in and being wounded in the Canadian operations around Falaise. He served throughout NW Europe into Germany. After Korea he was the UK head of Counterinsurgency operations during the Malayan Emergency. He ultimately became a Field Marshall. Ultimately, if the lightweight Inglis High Power was carried by only one person, it could have been someone a lot less significant than this.
That is a great idea. It is a shame no such version is currently in production. I bet it would be a rather good selling firearm. Whenever they make the hi power these days they still sell well.
I have carried one for 33 yrs and counting while in the CAF. It's a good pistol, but it's getting old and the parts are wearing out. I'd be happy if we got new ones to replace our 1957-9 issued ones.
We still use this in the Australian army a modern light version we have SIGs now but the hi power will all ways be my favourite just can not kill them
I had the pleasure to handle a full weight Browning Hi-Power back in the early 90s, however, sadly I wasn't able to shoot it. The lightweight version looks very cool. I wonder whatever happened the General's gun? That gun has serious "cool" attached it ;) Great video Ian, keep up the good work.
Penetrating a steel helmet at 120 yards is impressive. Hitting a steel helmet at 120 yards is a miracle!! =D Guessing it was clamped. I inherited my dad's HP when he passed away a few years back. Dont shoot it very often but will take it apart and put it together again every now and then to remind me of pops.
At least it was successful! They sold *one*!
No, there were able to give one away.
Wow. Impressed to hear one of these handguns would punch a steel helmet beyond 100 yards. Pretty crazy. Can't imagine it was an easy test to pull off as far as reliably hitting the helmet from that range.
Bloody hell Ian when did the vids move to 1 o clock
ᕙ(˵ ಠ ਊ ಠ ˵)ᕗᕙ(˵ ಠ ਊ ಠ ˵)ᕗ
Have you changed to daylight savings time recently?
They've been one since we went into BST
They were early morning in America not that long ago. Ian being American it kinda makes sense to do them during his standard day.
spef I need the video your pic comes from as well.
Scary thing is this Generation of Hi Power is still in service with the Canadian Army. Some units were updated to Sigs but most troops that require a pistol still use Hi Powers.
I have an aluminum frame HiPower with an unmilled slide. It was Belgian issued and made it's way home with a soldier.
My heart is breaking. In 1975 or so there was a gun amnesty in Canada and someone turned in for destruction a matched pair of aluminum Hi-Powers, with extra mags, with a UN sticker on the hand grip right under the trigger guard and in a presentation case. No papers, no plaque. To this day I hope some police officer took them home and took good care of them.
Around '97 or '98 I handled a polymer frame for the Hi Power. IIRC Alex du Plessis of ADP pistol fame was involved with the project. Sadly it never seemed to have gone beyond the prototype stage.
I saw a "de-activated" lightweight being sold as a momento at Fultons Gunsmith at Bisley Camp England. The cam bar was made out of a round section steel rod not the normal Browning oval bar with the central recessed section.
I love these Canadian military gun videos because you don't really hear about them very much.
During the late 60s thru the early 70s FN made another batch of similar guns; they had the aluminum frame but a standard slide. I understand they were intended for high ranking police or military officers only.
Ian ---- 2022 Update ---- The HiPower Renaissance is upon us. The NEW FN HiPower has dropped at Shot Show, only months after the new Springfield Armory SA-35 launched and Girsan has been making their P-35 clone for a little bit. - Better ergonomics, no hammer bite, more magazine capacity and the deletion of the magazine disconnect. Here we go!!!!
It would be wise to produce a Browning P35 in the new Metals available today in the same old configuration. Cheers
You know, I'm not complaining about our current flag, it is rad as hell to have a maple leaf, but part of me misses the classic "let's smoosh a billion things together" of the older Canadian flag.
Loud & Clear.🩸
Things must have been resolved over the years regarding that lightweight aluminum frame. Bulgarians made their high power versions for comercial marked many years ago.
If you change the original material for the receiver with a softer one that is a recoil bearing part, what would one expect? The postwar duralumin Walther P38s suffered similarly.
as usual a fantastic presentation on what this time is my all time fave pistol and what i cut my teeth on. Keep up the great work.
hell yea Canadian history.
I find this a particularly interesting topic with the recent selection of the Sig P320. The military has recognized the sidearm plays a relatively insignificant role in combat for a long time, essentially since WWI, and that weight spent on a sidearm is for most soldiers dead mass. With that said, they have been relatively reluctant to move away from traditional materials through history. It's amazing to me it took this long for a light weight pistol to finally get adopted.
Seth Rich Well, it really plays into some interesting doctrines. At least for American Military, all men must go armed around an FOB. A limited number of side arms are sent to the base. Officers snatch them up because they can be armed without a heavy, unwieldy rifle to hump around and they get first pick anyways.
I do have to yell at CoD for copying Halo and giving everyone 2 weapons in a current day context and then exploding in popularity.
SgtKOnyx You bring up an interesting point as well on the methodology of who even carries a sidearm. First in country they usually are limited, and tend to go to officers. I have no personal experience, but in my career I work frequently with former military. From my understanding most guys view a sidearm as the potential to carry an extra mag or two, extra IFAK, or water if they don't take it; all things that are far more likely to be used.To me this makes sense for the average soldier as they'll almost always be in fire teams, if one rifle goes down the others have your back. The only guys we worked with that regularly carried both rifle and sidearm were 5th group Special Forces which makes sense in that their role often dictates breaking fire team and controlling sectors individually or in pairs. It really comes down to whether a sidearm is necessitated by the training doctrine for that specific unit. In most cases I'd say it doesn't.
I think when it comes to video games us firearms owners or military personnel are the minority. We want them to be combat sims. The designers build them for 16 year olds that just want to run around and blast everything. ha
From your name I take it you're a service member? Thank you for your service and all those that have and will serve.
Seth Rich Actually I'm not, but I would appreciate the thanks if I were and would pass on similar. In all honesty, the name is my gamer tag. Though I have somewhat coincidentally turned into the "Sarge" of my friend group.
the best single action pistol and the nicest!
Ian that really is a good looking High Power, Makes Me want to machine cut My ones slide
Got a high power made in Belgium.not a scratch. Great pistol.
One of the double action pieces was for sale on Gun Broker a while back but, alas, I didn't have enough fun tickets available at the time but a great piece to have along side a single. :)
The problems noted could be overcome with a little sticktoitivenes, a shame people crapped out on it.
Kind of makes you wonder why they didn't do the same thing in reverse. Make the frame steel and the slide aluminum alloy.
I’m sure i missed the alloy used on this pistols. 7075 AR uppers are quite happy coexisting with steel BCGs...granted the friction and metal to metal impact is different.
Ps. They obviously didn’t have E. Stoner on the Engineering team.
They should've continued to make the lighter slide and used it on regular Hi-Powers. (Or perhaps they did)
america just kindoff went: "hey a gun. JAMES! WHAT DO WE DO WITH THE GUN?! james: fuck it use it in an m1 helmet test. why!? FREEDOM
STANAG 4090 is the NATO standard agreement for 9mm ammunition and specifies dimensions, bullet mass range, muzzle energy and terminal effectiveness requirements, along with a list of related items I didn't mention. Paragraph 3 of the technical performance specification requires lethality at 23m through a steel helmet or body armor and it lists the M1 helmet and M1952 body armor as defined examples. Any pistol submitted for NATO adoption is going to have to meet those requirements using 9mm NATO ammo.
Those tests had been around since before the NATO standard agreement requirements and are unlikely to have been invented by the US. When multiple trusted countries or agencies are involved in weapons testing it's not uncommon to split up the work. There would be no point in the US confirming that the Canadians told the truth about velocity and muzzle energy and there would be no point in the British confirming that the Americans told the truth about penetration.
The tests were not split according to what was important to each country, they were gating tests. The Canadians designed the pistol, and the first test was to confirm the ammo performance by the numbers. The US has a public law requiring operational testing of military weapons. Penetration tests can confirm that the numbers make sense against real world targets. And when those passed, the next question was about operational suitability - including reliability. The British came up with operational tests for that.
The point of distributing the testing was to distribute testing costs so it didn't all fall on one nation. Professional military organizations are exactly what they say they are - professional. "Yee haw, 'Murica," had nothing to do with it.
. Goes to show JM Browning got it right first time.
I actually quite like those cuts from an aesthetic point of view. Perhaps I should look into replicating it. Doesn't look too difficult, removing bits of slide. Don't know about the depth of the cuts though. Anyways, great video.
great review of the gun very interesting history really loved hearing about it
Apparently the scallop that you said is for pushing out the slide stop is actually designed to be a grasping point when running the slide. Doctrine dictated that you pull the slide back from that scallop with your thumb and index finger.
Then again, it lines up perfectly with the slide stop, so maybe it had a dual purpose.
I've fired an awful lot of rounds through these while in the British army and never used that scallop to cock the weapon. That's what the grippy milled slots on the back of the slide are for. Incidentally, I was working in Oman recently and their military still use the Browning. Good to see.
The BHP is fairly light for a steel gun and it points like a finger.
Then the French demanded a magazine safety and stuffed up a perfectly decent gun. How anyone can muck up a trigger pull deliberately is beyond me.
FN made aluminum frame High powers in tve seventies and eighties. They were in widespread use by the Belgian gendarmerie.
Weird side note: I've got a Hungarian Hi Power clone (FEG P9M) and it doesn't have that little cut on the right side that lines up with the pin for disassembly.
Casting has come a long way.
Inglis had a plant near me where they made washers and dryers. I guess it's a small leap from there to lightweight Brownings.
Adding an optics cut way before optics cuts were a thing on pistols 😅
Interesting. Would love to see a review of the Argentinian ''Detective'' model FN. Cheers
Eh ameo!!! Hace rato que le vengo pidiendo que haga una review del Halcón 63 pero no hay caso😂😂😂
What an interesting vid! Thanks a lot for uploading it. The "Forgotten Weapons" channel is always hugely interesting.
MsG
The high power is still in service in Canada
nah, they were getting the slide optic ready. forward thinking bunch that :-)
Ian you might do a clip on the "Brigader " pistols built by a consortium of manufacturers.
Aluminum is about 60% lighter than steel. In other words, it weighs a bit more than 1/3 as much. It is a magic metal.
"It BELONGS IN A MUSEUM!!"
-Indiana Jones-
Neat vid, my fav pistol ever is the Sig P220. It started as a 9mm as i. sure you know. Would be neat to find one of those, i actually prefer the new milled slide p220 though, easier to work on and pop the extractor out and just seems better made. Weird how its known as a 45 but started as a 9. Im thinking watching this vid, just leave the cut out milled slide and use a steel frame. lol call it a day
Interesting. Did not know about these. I would imagine that a big part of the problem was the specific aluminum alloys in use back then. I don't think 7071T6 was made until a few years later. That probably accounts for the steel block ovaling its hole. Any info on how much weight the slide cuts themselves saved? I would guess about 3-3.5 oz, just as a SWAG. I like the HP a lot, and lighter is better to a point. I wonder if they had to change the recoil spring in order to keep the slide velocity workable. A lighter slide will of course move faster. An interesting chapter of what might have been. Great video as always.
The High Power was a great pistol in the late 1930's, early 1940's. Much like the M14 was a great rifle in the late 1950's and early 1960's. Both firearms have hugely underserved reputations when compared to other weapons in their class.
Still is a great pistol in active service all around the world, including Australia.
When you drop everything, grab your cheerios and watch Ian :)
I have a vision of the UK test with sub machine gun ammunition, which has been the death knell of many a good military High power frame.
Moot point thought:
How many rounds did the British put through the gun before the deformation became significant? Depending on how cheap mass producing the frames could be, and how long it takes to wear it out, they could have taken the same approach the Russians did with tanks. "It'll last long enough before we need to replace it."
You have some Great Uploads... Corona is allowing me to binge watch.
I like the look and it would be comparable to the older Hi Power. I'd like to own one.
Thanks. Very informative.
He WAS the very model of a modern major general.
Makes me want to get a Hi Power to send off to a machinist to have these cuts done to it. Definitely a neat idea
Thanks for your nice (old) info-clip and yes, my Hungarian look-alike-version of the 1911
is by far not the same as any of the real Brownings - take care.
UK special forces favourite sidearm, Browning high power.