Hey Everyone, I hope you all enjoyed this chat! Given we are introducing 74 years of history there are plenty of topics we only cover briefly. You can reply to this comment letting us know what Japanese Naval Landing Forces topic you would like to hear more about. If several people want to hear about a similar topic (e.g. the role of Naval Landing Forces in the 1932 Battle of Shanghai), Austin and I could record a video going into more depth. BEFORE YOU COMMENT please note that there is a second part already coming that covers the Naval Landing Forces in the Second World War at roughly the same level of detail as this video.
Did IJN raised more ground troops in order to lessen reliance on Army units? Did February 26 Incident have something with that? Maybe Tarawa will be good topic for dedicated video? Especially when when the battle is often portrayed as US Marines vs Japanese Marines.
Look I get japan wasn’t exactly the industrial big shot they are now but like We really missed out on the IJN making a flat top with tanks on it for shore support
@@looinrims that’s easy you take a liberty ship and put a dozen Sherman’s on the upper deck and you are ready to take on the might of the Kriegsmarine . The Japanese were just to rigid and inflexible to go ahead and try it.
An important reason for assigning gunnery officers to naval infantry was the gunnery officers' skill in directing naval gunfire. Put a signals sailor in the landing party too so that the gunnery officer can relay the call for fire and then adjust the fire. Naval infantry "heavy artillery" was limited in caliber and ammunition supply. Even destroyers provided bigger guns with more shells. The limit was how far inland the shipboard guns could reach--then there was the issue of communications.
My issue with Marines is that because the US uses Marines almost on par with Army even in the 1940's that everyone assumes everyone else Marines are used as infantry rather than the intended use of armed security for the fleet.
@@looinrims sure you said the US Marines are "a large force like their arm(y)". The USMC (including Reserves) are 1/5 the size of the the Army (which includes the Reserves and NG).
Would love to see a vide on the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria. It never gets much coverage even though it was such a massive and highly successful operation.
My Dislexia kicked in and I read "Marines are just sailors with rifles." I was getting ready to write a response filled with curse words and threats. Good thing I reread the title before commenting.
I especially enjoy these presentations on the more obscure aspects of military services. These comprise a part of the reasons I love the internet, and I am old enough to remember having to find things in a card reference or book appendix then ordering books through the library lending services, which sometimes took months to supply one's needs.
This one one of my favorite subjects of Japanese military history, I was hoping one day an ultra-short video on the topic would be released! I'm assuming the second part will cover discuss how the Army and Navy cooperated on land engagements; like how a garrison commander worked with the commander of the naval troops.
All Capitol Ships at one time had Naval Landing forces, usually Gunners and weapons sailors. It had at it's core a Marine Landing force usually one Plt to three Naval Plt's. Many smaller ships had landing parties usually Shore patrol up to a dock security by Master at arms. Even up to the late 70's yet they were never used.
Sounds like another aspect of the Japanese Army - Navy feud before and during the Second World War. I saw a recent video from Drachinifel (sic) on the Japanese Army naval forces. Makes you wonder what they could have done if they worked together instead of against each other.
that would be an interesting aspect to dig in, although considering the limitations of the Japanese, it might have limited influence, but hard to tell.
They have a one time collaboration if I remember it correctly. After retrieving an advance centrimetric radars from a downed US plane, both the Japanese navy and Japanese army engineers made a collaborated effort in reverse engineering the said radar equipment.
THANK YOU for the insight. there are so many videos about american, german forces during WW2 but very few into details of Imperial Japanese Navy especially in the topic of Naval landing forces.
My Father was a US Marine who served in the Pacific at Guam in 1944. He never said much about it but I remember he spoke of the Japanese Marines. He said that while the Japanese were a small people the Japanese Marines were all big six footers. He seemed to hold them in high regard. Now I'm sure this was not first hand knowledge but what was said among the Marines themselves and good example of what the average Marine thought back then.
Years ago, I remember reading one of the war book that mentioned about an instance when US marines did encounter six footer Japanese soldiers in some of pacific islands they invaded.
My grandfather served with the rikusentai in WW2 and from the stories I heard he carried a camera in Burma and the Andaman Islands. I’d love to know more about the role of recon units in the Rikusenkai
My grandfather were in the Rikusentai that lands all over Indonesia then serve under Tadashi Maeda on Java, he was actually loved by the people there and married my grandmother after participating in both Dutch Agresssion War since he and some of his brothers in arms decided to stay and help liberate Asian from European control. Even during the tragedy that is '98 in Indonesia the family house in Surakarta got spared because he flies both Merah Putih and Hinomaru, as the story told by my grandmother goes even the people drove away the looters saying that it's the house of an independence war hero and not the house of a Chinese (since '98 mobs targets Chinese).
Very good discussion, but one very minor point if I can. Usually both "Corps" (USMC, Armoured Corps, XXX, etc.) and "Core" (apple, etc.) are both pronounced as "core" (i.e. silent "p"). :)
Thanks for politely pointing this out. I was aware while recording that Austin had mispronounced it, but he was doing great recording his first ever interview and I didn't want to throw him off his game by cutting him off over a nitpick. Mispronunciations happen sometimes, even to the smartest of people.
To make up the numbers on the WW1 western front excess RN sailors were sent there. They retained their RN ranks and pay and like the Royal Marines wore army type uniforms. The mostly fought alongside the Royal Marines in the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division.
These Naval Landing Forces were in the beginning, formed when there was no potential threat by enemy naval forces. For example, the British Royal Navy, and other forces, had similar concepts. The Royal Navy had their Naval Brigades. They were formed as a kind of QRF, to support the Army in the colonies, and the Crimean War. Reinforcements from the British Islands needed several weeks or even months before they could arrive in Egypt, South Africa or India. And beside the Crimean War, the Royal Navy had no big naval engagements between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Outbreak of the Great War. The Naval Brigades were formed by the shios crews and Marines in the theater, the Marines were used as a kind of Light Infantry, the Sailors as Line Infantry or Artillery crews. They fought in the Opium Wars, the Crimean War, the Indian Mutiny, the Zulu War, both Boer Wars, the Mahdi Wars, the Boxer Uprising and other conflicts. The Germans also used this concept, during the Boxer Uprising and several uprisings in their African colonies, the Reichsmarine deployed contingents of Gun Boats or Light Cruisers to support the Schutztruppe in surpressing these uprisings. For example during the Herero Uprising in Deutsch-Südwest, todays Namibia, the crew of SMS Habicht were in Cape Town when they received a Telegram from Berlin, with order immediately return to Swakopmund and reinforce the Schutztruppe. Once they arrived in Swakopmund, they formed a landing party. Taking two of the ships Maxim guns, five 3,7cm Gatling gun and a rifle for each of the 54 men, including a surgein, with them. Some of the ships engine personal operates together with Raroad employees a locomotive, later upgraded to a kind of armoured teain by the use of railway tracks and railway sleepers, also to repair the tracks if needed.
Great video ! That pic at 04:00 is interesting. There are 31 sailors, 4 NCO's (same cap badge) and 1 Officer (sword). There are 4 light machine guns indicating 4 sections or squads of 7-8 men, or 3 of 9 men plus a platoon Sargent and a machine gun element as a support group (much more conventional and likely) and a medic. Does that tally with what you know about them ?
Fascinating discussion - The Royal Navy had a small detachment of Royal Marines on board most vessels during the seventeenth -nineteenth centuries for security/sniping, but were supplemented by the crews for ad hic landing actions - watch the Hornblower tv series/read the novels. The Royal Marines were then used in bigger engagements as larger units BUT there current formation/usage of RM Commandoes only happened during WW2 due to the needs of the times. (The first commando units had been Army volunteers in 1940 - without any experience of small boats.)
@@lovablesnowman of course, but what's about the British Naval Brigades during the 19th century?! Very similar to the concept of the Special Naval Landing Forces.
I have always thought that marines are a separate branch of a country's military and wear military uniforms and use military ranks and other nomenclature. While naval infantry such as the SNLF and Soviet Naval Infantry are branch of the Navy, use naval uniforms and ranks.
Really interesting information and well presented. (I know it's a dialect thing, but listening to him pronounce the "s" in "corps" is like nails on a chalkboard)
No mention of Blue Jackets? The Japanese never broke the Chinese line in the January 28th incident, Chinese forces withdrew in good order during the night and the Japanese occupied those positions in the morning.The Chinese defence lines were along the Shanghai-Wusong line not the Shanghai -Nanking line. Thanks for your help with my own series of videos on the battle Austin,Im surely going to buy your book.Cheers
It was only after the summer of 1942 did the Allies make any offensive, what other battles would there have been prior to June 1942 when the Allies attacked SNLF units? The SNLF at Milne Bay was beaten but many of the troops evacuated. I would say the 1943 battle of tarawa was a big headache for the Allies, taking over 3000 casualties to weed out the SNLF there.
True. Many of the massacres during the battle for Manila in February 1945 were perpetrated by these Special Naval Landing Forces under Admiral Iwabuchi.
@@royprincipe People forget the destruction of Manila by Japanese forces WAS PLANNED. It is well-documented that the Japanese had installed explosives, artillery and machine gun emplacements in key areas a month before the nightmare of February 1945.
Is Justin doing this episode because it’s focused on the Imperial Japanese in the Pacific? That’s pretty cool, since I’ve never seen this before on this channel.
yeah, this was not the first time, but generally he has far more knowledge on the theater, forces, etc. and thus make better questions etc. meanwhile I can provide PTO content without spending too much time on it.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized oh cool! I should dig through the videos I missed then. Both you and Justin are quite interesting to listen to present information about your respective fields of study.
I was watching a documentary few days ago and they mentioned about the mayla invasion how japanese army used a tactic called the scorpion manoeuvre? to over whelm the Australian devisions trying to block the advance. Were Japanese marines/adhoc infantry taught any manouvoures or tactics in particular or was the human wave the only option given?.
Can we get some counter narrative of how the Japanese army and navy *did* cooperate (when they did), and what some examples of cooperation success were?
My Grandfather actually fought against the Japanese during WWII, specific the Japanese Marines. He described these marines to my father, of whome repeated what he said to me. The description was "These guys were Fucking Huge."
One historical detail about the IJN "marines" that may have been overlooked is their role in the atrocities towards the civilians during the battle of Manila 1944. Most of the Japanese during the later phase of the fighting were soldiers of the IJN, left to fight to the death. As defeat became inevitable their cruelty to the civilian population reached a crescendo of rape and murder. This suggests that the culture of casual cruelty was as ingrained in the IJN as in the IJA. And/or that these IJN soldiers were poorly disiplined reservists that degenerated into a rabble.
@@trauko1388 English shares many similarities with creole (not French Creole) languages, since Middle English simplified the grammar, and half it's words are of French (from Latin) origin, with many others directly from Latin, Greek, Spanish, Hindu, etc.
So the IJN copied the idea of the British Naval Brigades. The Royal Navy deployed Sailors and Marines from their shios in the theater, as a kind of QRF to support the Army in fighting in the colonies, and also during the Crimean War. The Royal Marines would act as a kind of Light Infantry, while the Sailors fight as Line Infantry and Artillery crews (the Batteries of the Royal Marine Artillery were all based in the UK). In WW1 the Royal Navy deployed the Naval Division to fight in France, this Division had 3 Brigades. Each Brigade was composed of one Battalion of Royal Marines from the Marine Garrisons in Great Britain, and two Battalions of Sailors that weren't part of a ships crew.
Would like to hear about the atrocities committed against their military enemies and the civilians who happened to get in their way in places like New Guinea and Rabaul etc. as the Australians wanted more of them to face trial for their crimes but were 'dissuaded' by the Americans {macarthur} from pushing too hard ? Milne Bay people have some particularly 'fond' memories of the savagery of these units and they were only there for a short time.
My mother in law was an Aussie war bride from Melbourne and she told me of the fear and hatred of the Japanese during WWII. She had a cousin that was a Digger and was eventually a pow. He was put aboard a hellship with hundreds of other Allied pows and put to sea where the Japanese torpedoed the ship killing all onboard. My father fought in the Pacific, US Navy and nothing Japanese was tolerated in our home. I get it but did not share my parents feelings as my best friend was Japanese. All the best from America!
I think the Battle of Tarawa shows that Japanese Naval Landing Forces/Japanese Marines were very good soldiers and deserve to be regarded as dedicated professionals who fought hard for their service and their country. Their only defect was, as with all Japanese forces, not surrendering when out of water and out of ammunition. Senseless sacrifice is not bravery - it is a very perverse narcissism.
@@goforbroke4428 Being alive, going home to their families, contributing to post-war reconstruction, marrying, having children, raising families, contributing a bit of joy in another person's life.
If we're talking about IJN Landing Forces, I prefer to call them "Vile Toads." Much different than the "Degenerate Goblins," though one would be forgiven given their similar appearance and actions in Manila and Nanjing respectively.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized In retrospect, we regret commenting on such a trivial aspect. Thank you and all the contributing guests for all your hard work. Otherwise we would be stuck watching the (made-up) History Channel.
So, how do you make Marines? USMC: "Forging specially selected soldiers into an elite cadre throug rigorous training." IJN: "Uhm, round up every sailor you don't immediately need to run the ship, hand them a rifle and ferry them to the beach. Duh." ... IJN: "Weird, it appears we're losing for some reason."
Am a bit annoyed with grouping the entire west in terms of marine forces. The US is a complete outlier in terms of separate marine forces apart from their puppet allies like Korea and the Philippines during the 20th century to today. The Royal Marines are commandos. Similar forces in Canada, Australia and Western Europe are commandos. Only US politics and Army-Navy rivalry keeps this second army commanded by the Navy concept alive. Maybe it was the best choice, the US generally wins. But outside the Pacific theatre in WW2 it just makes no sense to have Navy controlled divisions of soldiers with their own airforce when you have an actual Army and Airforce. The USMC is full of brave heroes but they shouldn't exist. The waste in material, lives and command confusion is appalling. Thats why no-one else does it.
> Only US politics and Army-Navy rivalry keeps this second army commanded by the Navy concept alive. The USMC is a branch of its own, administratively it is attached to the US Navy. (As far as I know this was different in WW2.) Considering US foreign policy etc. the US Marine Corps makes actually quite some sense, since it is a branch that is mostly concerned with attacking / taking the fight to the enemy and the US needs to cross in most cases an ocean to fight an enemy.
Nothing wrong with a Navy having its own army... and THAT army having its own air force and navy... and THAT navy having its own air force... The Matryoshka of armed forces!!! XD
He would be easier to take more seriously if he actually learned how to pronounce the word "Corps." Sounds as "Core." A "corpse" is a dead body... although for the majority of the Japanese SNLF troops, that did turn out to be their final outcome.
Marines isn't an English word it's Dutch. They invented it before invading England in 1667. That's how the English learned about the concept of marines. So it's actually a Dutch word. Same goes for commandos, comes from the South African Boer wars. Originates from the Dutch kommando, Just saying 😉
The creator of this channel is an Austrian. In german language Korps is spoken Korps. So the Afrikakorps is spoken Afrikakorps, not Afrikakohr or Afrikachor ( bis would be Africa choir. In my homeregion elderly people use ,Kohr" as an outdated term for people in US called ,white trash'.
@@brittakriep2938 Yeah but the dude is speaking English, and he's Canadian anyway. It sounds awful, and will get you beaten down at Paris Island... The last thing you want to call a Marine is a dead body.
@@brittakriep2938 And also, according to Google translate, you are wrong. The German pronunciation for Korps is "core". Is Google translate wrong now too? Lame.
@@AceDupuy well most people are disregarding everything he says because he mispronounced one word. I didn't even know that it's pronounced "core" and not "corpse" until this vid tbh. In German we just day "korps" as "corpse"
Hey Everyone,
I hope you all enjoyed this chat! Given we are introducing 74 years of history there are plenty of topics we only cover briefly. You can reply to this comment letting us know what Japanese Naval Landing Forces topic you would like to hear more about. If several people want to hear about a similar topic (e.g. the role of Naval Landing Forces in the 1932 Battle of Shanghai), Austin and I could record a video going into more depth. BEFORE YOU COMMENT please note that there is a second part already coming that covers the Naval Landing Forces in the Second World War at roughly the same level of detail as this video.
Did IJN raised more ground troops in order to lessen reliance on Army units? Did February 26 Incident have something with that? Maybe Tarawa will be good topic for dedicated video? Especially when when the battle is often portrayed as US Marines vs Japanese Marines.
I would like to know more about their actions in WW2 and tactics in detail, please.
Mr. Katz sounds a lot like Mr. Pyke on this video...😁
I would-be like more about the campaign of the Dutch-Indies 1941-1942
This was very instructive, thanks. I’ve always been fascinated by these units and feel more needs to be known about them.
I remember the Japanese navy have designed their own tank, and the army built their own air craft carrier
Japanese Navy : we will utterly destroy our ultimate enemy, once the Army is defeated then we can dedicate ourselves to defeat the American Navy.
because why not ;) I mean they technically had unlimited natural resources and manpower... oh wait.
Look I get japan wasn’t exactly the industrial big shot they are now but like
We really missed out on the IJN making a flat top with tanks on it for shore support
@@looinrims that’s easy you take a liberty ship and put a dozen Sherman’s on the upper deck and you are ready to take on the might of the Kriegsmarine . The Japanese were just to rigid and inflexible to go ahead and try it.
Pardon for cross posting but Drach has just done a video on IJA vessels ruclips.net/video/mZ9AFbnY4To/видео.html&ab_channel=Drachinifel
A company sized unit, heavily armed with SMGs deploying by submarine! You've peaked my interest.
At last the IJN can land forces to face their prime enemy... the IJA
lol
An important reason for assigning gunnery officers to naval infantry was the gunnery officers' skill in directing naval gunfire. Put a signals sailor in the landing party too so that the gunnery officer can relay the call for fire and then adjust the fire.
Naval infantry "heavy artillery" was limited in caliber and ammunition supply. Even destroyers provided bigger guns with more shells. The limit was how far inland the shipboard guns could reach--then there was the issue of communications.
My issue with Marines is that because the US uses Marines almost on par with Army even in the 1940's that everyone assumes everyone else Marines are used as infantry rather than the intended use of armed security for the fleet.
I won’t lie growing up as an American I just assumed every nation’s marines were a large force like their armies
Boy was I wrong
@@looinrims the US Marines are *TINY* compared to the Army, and always has been.
@@RonJohn63 no one said they weren’t? But the marines are still huge in america
@@RonJohn63 4 division historically and the DoD announced they want a 5th.
@@looinrims sure you said the US Marines are "a large force like their arm(y)".
The USMC (including Reserves) are 1/5 the size of the the Army (which includes the Reserves and NG).
Another expert exposition reinforcing this series' high reputation. thanks.
thank you, are you the author of Third Axis Fourth Ally: Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941-1945?
i have read WW2 hostory all my life and never heard/saw such a good summary of the topic. I will look up Austin's website.
thank you!
Would love to see a vide on the Soviet Invasion of Manchuria. It never gets much coverage even though it was such a massive and highly successful operation.
might happen at one point
@N Fels You do realise the kwangtung army was one of the best equipped parts of the japanese army with massive investment
@@thepeoplessneeder8108 by 45 nope
The People's Sneeder you fail to see how they pulled out their competent troops and heavy equipment by 45 to use in other places
I second this. I've never learned about it and would love to gain a framework for my own research through this video channel.
My Dislexia kicked in and I read "Marines are just sailors with rifles." I was getting ready to write a response filled with curse words and threats. Good thing I reread the title before commenting.
lol, beware of angry Devil Dogs ;)
I especially enjoy these presentations on the more obscure aspects of military services. These comprise a part of the reasons I love the internet, and I am old enough to remember having to find things in a card reference or book appendix then ordering books through the library lending services, which sometimes took months to supply one's needs.
This one one of my favorite subjects of Japanese military history, I was hoping one day an ultra-short video on the topic would be released! I'm assuming the second part will cover discuss how the Army and Navy cooperated on land engagements; like how a garrison commander worked with the commander of the naval troops.
we will see ;) likely there will be more than one more video :)
Great info. I often wondered about the true capabilities of the SNLF. Thanks.
Very well done, thank you all for find and introducing us to all these experts.
Actually answered a lot of questions I happened to have, many thanks Justin and Austin!
Really enjoyed this talk. Fascinating subject as i am finding the WW2 Japanese Military increasingly interesting . Thanks
All Capitol Ships at one time had Naval Landing forces, usually Gunners and weapons sailors.
It had at it's core a Marine Landing force usually one Plt to three Naval Plt's.
Many smaller ships had landing parties usually Shore patrol up to a dock security by Master at arms.
Even up to the late 70's yet they were never used.
The fact that Austin is only 22 y.o. makes me want to rethink some of my life strategies
You gotta wake up at 5am everyday and have beans for breakfast, lunch, and dinner
Your fursona is cute
Sounds like another aspect of the Japanese Army - Navy feud before and during the Second World War. I saw a recent video from Drachinifel (sic) on the Japanese Army naval forces. Makes you wonder what they could have done if they worked together instead of against each other.
that would be an interesting aspect to dig in, although considering the limitations of the Japanese, it might have limited influence, but hard to tell.
All this feud stemmed from Satsuma Rebellion?
@@Joshua_N-A the army and navy officer corps did loosely recruit along the previously existing tribal lines. Exacerbating the rivalry
They have a one time collaboration if I remember it correctly. After retrieving an advance centrimetric radars from a downed US plane, both the Japanese navy and Japanese army engineers made a collaborated effort in reverse engineering the said radar equipment.
THANK YOU for the insight. there are so many videos about american, german forces during WW2 but very few into details of Imperial Japanese Navy especially in the topic of Naval landing forces.
Great video and very informative. Never really thought / realized how different the naval landing force could be. Thanks for the content!
Enjoyed the SNLF segment.
Please consider discussing the book "Kempeitai, Japan's Dreaded Military Police." Author is Raymond Lamont-Brown. Thanks
I love anytime you get Justin on here.
Everybody go buy Austin’s book it’s a great read!
Where can I find it
If you go to his twitter, thats linked in the description, he has an amazon link to the book in question pinned at the top.
My Father was a US Marine who served in the Pacific at Guam in 1944. He never said much about it but I remember he spoke of the Japanese Marines. He said that while the Japanese were a small people the Japanese Marines were all big six footers. He seemed to hold them in high regard. Now I'm sure this was not first hand knowledge but what was said among the Marines themselves and good example of what the average Marine thought back then.
Years ago, I remember reading one of the war book that mentioned about an instance when US marines did encounter six footer Japanese soldiers in some of pacific islands they invaded.
My grandfather served with the rikusentai in WW2 and from the stories I heard he carried a camera in Burma and the Andaman Islands. I’d love to know more about the role of recon units in the Rikusenkai
Awesome stuff. Thanks so much, this was very insightful.
Glad you enjoyed it!
My grandfather were in the Rikusentai that lands all over Indonesia then serve under Tadashi Maeda on Java, he was actually loved by the people there and married my grandmother after participating in both Dutch Agresssion War since he and some of his brothers in arms decided to stay and help liberate Asian from European control. Even during the tragedy that is '98 in Indonesia the family house in Surakarta got spared because he flies both Merah Putih and Hinomaru, as the story told by my grandmother goes even the people drove away the looters saying that it's the house of an independence war hero and not the house of a Chinese (since '98 mobs targets Chinese).
That's awesome
Huh, keren juga
@@Kevin-fj5oe Thanks, tho my grandfather passed away a decade-ish ago his teachings of discipline I still practice today.
Very good discussion, but one very minor point if I can. Usually both "Corps" (USMC, Armoured Corps, XXX, etc.) and "Core" (apple, etc.) are both pronounced as "core" (i.e. silent "p"). :)
Thank you. That drives me up a wall. As does pronouncing cache like cachet.
Even Obama made that mistake
Was just about to make that correction, thank you for doing it for me.
One would think that an author of a book on military history would know better.
Thanks for politely pointing this out. I was aware while recording that Austin had mispronounced it, but he was doing great recording his first ever interview and I didn't want to throw him off his game by cutting him off over a nitpick. Mispronunciations happen sometimes, even to the smartest of people.
Naval paratroopers! Learn something new everyday.
Again I have learned a great deal . Thank you.
Great to hear!
To make up the numbers on the WW1 western front excess RN sailors were sent there. They retained their RN ranks and pay and like the Royal Marines wore army type uniforms. The mostly fought alongside the Royal Marines in the 63rd (Royal Naval) Division.
Marines to Navy is like Dragoons to Cavalry.
Damn 22 and very knowledge and professional.
Who are you? What have you done with Bernhard?
I have Bernhard tied up in the basement where I'm force-feeding him nothing but salad greens and carrots.
lol I didn't knew you had a sadistic side ;)
@@justinpyke1756 Lol, the salad greens and carrots is a bit harsh!
It makes me wonder how much the effective running of the ship would be diminished by the loss of so many sailors? Especially after a heavy battle.
These Naval Landing Forces were in the beginning, formed when there was no potential threat by enemy naval forces.
For example, the British Royal Navy, and other forces, had similar concepts.
The Royal Navy had their Naval Brigades.
They were formed as a kind of QRF, to support the Army in the colonies, and the Crimean War.
Reinforcements from the British Islands needed several weeks or even months before they could arrive in Egypt, South Africa or India.
And beside the Crimean War, the Royal Navy had no big naval engagements between the end of the Napoleonic Wars and the Outbreak of the Great War.
The Naval Brigades were formed by the shios crews and Marines in the theater, the Marines were used as a kind of Light Infantry, the Sailors as Line Infantry or Artillery crews.
They fought in the Opium Wars, the Crimean War, the Indian Mutiny, the Zulu War, both Boer Wars, the Mahdi Wars, the Boxer Uprising and other conflicts.
The Germans also used this concept, during the Boxer Uprising and several uprisings in their African colonies, the Reichsmarine deployed contingents of Gun Boats or Light Cruisers to support the Schutztruppe in surpressing these uprisings.
For example during the Herero Uprising in Deutsch-Südwest, todays Namibia, the crew of SMS Habicht were in Cape Town when they received a Telegram from Berlin, with order immediately return to Swakopmund and reinforce the Schutztruppe.
Once they arrived in Swakopmund, they formed a landing party.
Taking two of the ships Maxim guns, five 3,7cm Gatling gun and a rifle for each of the 54 men, including a surgein, with them.
Some of the ships engine personal operates together with Raroad employees a locomotive, later upgraded to a kind of armoured teain by the use of railway tracks and railway sleepers, also to repair the tracks if needed.
Hey it’s Justin again! Yay :D
:)
Great video ! That pic at 04:00 is interesting. There are 31 sailors, 4 NCO's (same cap badge) and 1 Officer (sword). There are 4 light machine guns indicating 4 sections or squads of 7-8 men, or 3 of 9 men plus a platoon Sargent and a machine gun element as a support group (much more conventional and likely) and a medic.
Does that tally with what you know about them ?
Thank you, ideally ask twitter.com/adachi_aus?s=21&t=goPmo0CSfw3swVXnHOAFSw
Fascinating discussion -
The Royal Navy had a small detachment of Royal Marines on board most vessels during the seventeenth -nineteenth centuries for security/sniping, but were supplemented by the crews for ad hic landing actions - watch the Hornblower tv series/read the novels.
The Royal Marines were then used in bigger engagements as larger units BUT there current formation/usage of RM Commandoes only happened during WW2 due to the needs of the times. (The first commando units had been Army volunteers in 1940 - without any experience of small boats.)
Your first point applies to most navies of the world during that time. That is the origin of Marines, not an amphibious force.
Don't forget the Naval Division in WW1, it's three Brigades also included one Battalion of Royal Marines each.
@@stephanl1983 the naval division in ww1 is a weird exception though.
@@lovablesnowman of course, but what's about the British Naval Brigades during the 19th century?!
Very similar to the concept of the Special Naval Landing Forces.
Referring to a Hollywood movie for historical accuracy is laughable.
I have always thought that marines are a separate branch of a country's military and wear military uniforms and use military ranks and other nomenclature. While naval infantry such as the SNLF and Soviet Naval Infantry are branch of the Navy, use naval uniforms and ranks.
Fantastic overview! Who the hell disliked this?
Really interesting information and well presented. (I know it's a dialect thing, but listening to him pronounce the "s" in "corps" is like nails on a chalkboard)
No mention of Blue Jackets? The Japanese never broke the Chinese line in the January 28th incident, Chinese forces withdrew in good order during the night and the Japanese occupied those positions in the morning.The Chinese defence lines were along the Shanghai-Wusong line not the Shanghai -Nanking line. Thanks for your help with my own series of videos on the battle Austin,Im surely going to buy your book.Cheers
yes, the 19th route army was extremely admirable.
The INJ SNLF did one thing well - die gallantly. After June 1942 they were not much of a headache for the Allied forces to decimate SNLF units.
It was only after the summer of 1942 did the Allies make any offensive, what other battles would there have been prior to June 1942 when the Allies attacked SNLF units? The SNLF at Milne Bay was beaten but many of the troops evacuated. I would say the 1943 battle of tarawa was a big headache for the Allies, taking over 3000 casualties to weed out the SNLF there.
Zero downvotes, as it should be.
Sadly the lack of training and logistics did not mean a lack in brutality against civilians and POWs.
True. Many of the massacres during the battle for Manila in February 1945 were perpetrated by these Special Naval Landing Forces under Admiral Iwabuchi.
@@royprincipe People forget the destruction of Manila by Japanese forces WAS PLANNED. It is well-documented that the Japanese had installed explosives, artillery and machine gun emplacements in key areas a month before the nightmare of February 1945.
Is Justin doing this episode because it’s focused on the Imperial Japanese in the Pacific? That’s pretty cool, since I’ve never seen this before on this channel.
yeah, this was not the first time, but generally he has far more knowledge on the theater, forces, etc. and thus make better questions etc. meanwhile I can provide PTO content without spending too much time on it.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized oh cool! I should dig through the videos I missed then. Both you and Justin are quite interesting to listen to present information about your respective fields of study.
I was watching a documentary few days ago and they mentioned about the mayla invasion how japanese army used a tactic called the scorpion manoeuvre? to over whelm the Australian devisions trying to block the advance. Were Japanese marines/adhoc infantry taught any manouvoures or tactics in particular or was the human wave the only option given?.
USMC: Soldiers who happened to be sailors.
RM: Special Forces who happened to be sailors.
I was sort of hoping for more on the Shanghai force in 1937... I'd have to imagine they were the best trained snlf in the army at the time.
More Justin :)))))))
Very interesting and thorough video! One tip though corps is pronounced /kôr/
Austin's a foremost expert!
@4:00 why is George Bush in the Japanese naval landing force? (front row, 4th from right)
The real question I have is, Are the members of the Army servings on Army naval ships, soldiers or sailors?
CHADachi
So started out as sailors with rifles but evolved to become closer to marines.
Can we get some counter narrative of how the Japanese army and navy *did* cooperate (when they did), and what some examples of cooperation success were?
My Grandfather actually fought against the Japanese during WWII, specific the Japanese Marines. He described these marines to my father, of whome repeated what he said to me. The description was "These guys were Fucking Huge."
An informative video on a very obscure topic.
All I read they were just armed sailor units more for guard duty then infantry, not 1st class men or officers
One historical detail about the IJN "marines" that may have been overlooked is their role in the atrocities towards the civilians during the battle of Manila 1944.
Most of the Japanese during the later phase of the fighting were soldiers of the IJN, left to fight to the death. As defeat became inevitable their cruelty to the civilian population reached a crescendo of rape and murder.
This suggests that the culture of casual cruelty was as ingrained in the IJN as in the IJA. And/or that these IJN soldiers were poorly disiplined reservists that degenerated into a rabble.
From the little I know it very likely was ingrained.
*Corps is pronounced in English as ''CORE'' -- a loan word from the French, and retains the silent S. Corpse is a dead body.
English is weird.
@@trauko1388 English shares many similarities with creole (not French Creole) languages, since Middle English simplified the grammar, and half it's words are of French (from Latin) origin, with many others directly from Latin, Greek, Spanish, Hindu, etc.
we knew that one would come up :D
the french loaned it from latin "corpus" so one could argue both the french and you are wrong...
@Mialisus Maybe it is because all colonels are assholes? XD
But yeah, French spelling, Spanish pronunciation...
So the IJN copied the idea of the British Naval Brigades.
The Royal Navy deployed Sailors and Marines from their shios in the theater, as a kind of QRF to support the Army in fighting in the colonies, and also during the Crimean War.
The Royal Marines would act as a kind of Light Infantry, while the Sailors fight as Line Infantry and Artillery crews (the Batteries of the Royal Marine Artillery were all based in the UK).
In WW1 the Royal Navy deployed the Naval Division to fight in France, this Division had 3 Brigades. Each Brigade was composed of one Battalion of Royal Marines from the Marine Garrisons in Great Britain, and two Battalions of Sailors that weren't part of a ships crew.
Would like to hear about the atrocities committed against their military enemies and the civilians who happened to get in their way in places like New Guinea and Rabaul etc. as the Australians wanted more of them to face trial for their crimes but were 'dissuaded' by the Americans {macarthur} from pushing too hard ? Milne Bay people have some particularly 'fond' memories of the savagery of these units and they were only there for a short time.
My mother in law was an Aussie war bride from Melbourne and she told me of the fear and hatred of the Japanese during WWII. She had a cousin that was a Digger and was eventually a pow. He was put aboard a hellship with hundreds of other Allied pows and put to sea where the Japanese torpedoed the ship killing all onboard. My father fought in the Pacific, US Navy and nothing Japanese was tolerated in our home. I get it but did not share my parents feelings as my best friend was Japanese. All the best from America!
Someone tell this guy “corps” does not equal “corpse”
Huh. So they were the 'special type' destroyers (Booky Class) of the land forces.
In the battle o shanghai they desempended a major role. Hold on the ground, while waiting reinforces from japan and another colonies.
I think the Battle of Tarawa shows that Japanese Naval Landing Forces/Japanese Marines were very good soldiers and deserve to be regarded as dedicated professionals who fought hard for their service and their country. Their only defect was, as with all Japanese forces, not surrendering when out of water and out of ammunition. Senseless sacrifice is not bravery - it is a very perverse narcissism.
What would they have contributed as pows?
@@goforbroke4428 Being alive, going home to their families, contributing to post-war reconstruction, marrying, having children, raising families, contributing a bit of joy in another person's life.
@@dewittbourchier7169 well if that’s how that works, we might as well never stand up for anything.
If we're talking about IJN Landing Forces, I prefer to call them "Vile Toads." Much different than the "Degenerate Goblins," though one would be forgiven given their similar appearance and actions in Manila and Nanjing respectively.
its called naval infantry
Corps is pronounced "kor" not "corps", drop the S.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't corps pronounced kawrz; kohrz and not "corpse". I always thought the p was silent.
yes, it is silent.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized In retrospect, we regret commenting on such a trivial aspect. Thank you and all the contributing guests for all your hard work. Otherwise we would be stuck watching the (made-up) History Channel.
Is there really a difference?
Banzai!
Thank you, this is a great tutorial but for the love of Jesus stop pronouncing the "p" on corps
Why did you call it 'Marine Corpse'? 😬🤢
Is it a Canadian speaking habit to pronounce corps as "corpse" and not "core"? I'm not being critical I'm just curious.
not as far as we know.
Want to know the difference between a marine and a soldier? One is wet, the other is just dirty.
It triggers me when I hear Corps pronounced as corpse.
At least I'm not the only one shuddering every time it comes up.
I'm retired Army and can't stand it either.
So, how do you make Marines?
USMC: "Forging specially selected soldiers into an elite cadre throug rigorous training."
IJN: "Uhm, round up every sailor you don't immediately need to run the ship, hand them a rifle and ferry them to the beach. Duh."
...
IJN: "Weird, it appears we're losing for some reason."
Am a bit annoyed with grouping the entire west in terms of marine forces. The US is a complete outlier in terms of separate marine forces apart from their puppet allies like Korea and the Philippines during the 20th century to today.
The Royal Marines are commandos. Similar forces in Canada, Australia and Western Europe are commandos.
Only US politics and Army-Navy rivalry keeps this second army commanded by the Navy concept alive. Maybe it was the best choice, the US generally wins. But outside the Pacific theatre in WW2 it just makes no sense to have Navy controlled divisions of soldiers with their own airforce when you have an actual Army and Airforce. The USMC is full of brave heroes but they shouldn't exist. The waste in material, lives and command confusion is appalling. Thats why no-one else does it.
> Only US politics and Army-Navy rivalry keeps this second army commanded by the Navy concept alive.
The USMC is a branch of its own, administratively it is attached to the US Navy. (As far as I know this was different in WW2.) Considering US foreign policy etc. the US Marine Corps makes actually quite some sense, since it is a branch that is mostly concerned with attacking / taking the fight to the enemy and the US needs to cross in most cases an ocean to fight an enemy.
Why are you rehashing petulant Army gripes from decades ago?
“Puppet allies” has that old-fashioned, ritualistic Warsaw Pact tone.
Nothing wrong with a Navy having its own army... and THAT army having its own air force and navy... and THAT navy having its own air force...
The Matryoshka of armed forces!!! XD
@@trauko1388 It's turtles all the way down.
You kinda lost my interest when you pronounced Corps as Corpse. Good😮💨😞 Lord.
can of worms indeed
Corps, not Corpse.
God... THANK YOU.
Former US Marine here, it was like nails on a blackboard... CORPSE CORPSE CORPSE
Lol, sea men...
CAN 10 PANZER COMPETE WITH 1 T90 TANK IN WAR .
no
You may want to coach your guest that the word "corps" is pronounced "core" in English.
Thank you
you should see it the other way, Austin adapted so well to the channel already, he unintentionally made pronunciation errors.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized As the saying goes, "When in Central Europe, do as the Central Europeans do."
*CoRpSe*
He would be easier to take more seriously if he actually learned how to pronounce the word "Corps." Sounds as "Core." A "corpse" is a dead body... although for the majority of the Japanese SNLF troops, that did turn out to be their final outcome.
In german language Korps is spoken Korps, and the creator of this channel is Austrian ( german language).
@@brittakriep2938 Then he should of done the interview in German to speak the word as he did. In English, the 'p' is silent.
@@Sirilere : The comment was not intended being serious.
Marines isn't an English word it's Dutch. They invented it before invading England in 1667.
That's how the English learned about the concept of marines.
So it's actually a Dutch word.
Same goes for commandos, comes from the South African Boer wars. Originates from the Dutch kommando,
Just saying 😉
I dont trust anything this kid says because he dosen't know how to pronounce corps
So you dont have thousands of dollars worth of source material but you're still more credible because you know how to say corps.
Alright makes sense
In german Korps is spoken Korps. Answers only in 100% correct high german.
Marine corpse? Come on dude.
Marine corpse? You mean, friendly casualty...
rah
The creator of this channel is an Austrian. In german language Korps is spoken Korps. So the Afrikakorps is spoken Afrikakorps, not Afrikakohr or Afrikachor ( bis would be Africa choir. In my homeregion elderly people use ,Kohr" as an outdated term for people in US called ,white trash'.
@@brittakriep2938 Yeah but the dude is speaking English, and he's Canadian anyway. It sounds awful, and will get you beaten down at Paris Island... The last thing you want to call a Marine is a dead body.
@@brittakriep2938 And also, according to Google translate, you are wrong. The German pronunciation for Korps is "core". Is Google translate wrong now too? Lame.
"Corpse" costs you a lot of credibility. Never, ever make that mistake again.
You're going to disregard all this because someone pronounces a word differently?
@@weebtrash944 This isn't tom-ay-to, tom-ah-to. Pronouncing corps like corpse is objectively wrong.
@@AceDupuy it doesn't make literally everything he says not credible... Adachi is a pretty intelligent dude.
@@weebtrash944 I didn't say it made him less credible. The problem is hearing someone repeatedly mispronounce a word is very annoying.
@@AceDupuy well most people are disregarding everything he says because he mispronounced one word. I didn't even know that it's pronounced "core" and not "corpse" until this vid tbh. In German we just day "korps" as "corpse"