Always interesting to see these "what could have been/what if" models and to wonder if and how designs might've been influenced had they been more widely adopted.
Lydd and Hythe ranges in the cold and rain, oooooo dear! Memories. Great video, fascinating stuff.........my heart goes out to the citizens of Ukraine today, God bless, stay strong!
Having closely examined one of these guns before, they are impressive not only because of the innovative Maynard tape primer system and innovative breech seal (which I puzzled over when I looked at one; thank you Jonathan for explaining that) but the quality of manufacture is amazing. I would love to know more about its production. It has Enfield inspector stamps where I assume Enfield inspectors checked the parts as the guns were made in the Savage factory. The barrel has fantastic quality 3 groove rifling, the breech locking action is incredibly smooth and precise, and can be manipulated rapidly. Maynard was a dentist by profession but also an inventor of dental things - dubbed the blacksmith dentist by colleagues and he was also into firearm development. The lock functions as a decent trigger mech but also advances the tape from a reel; that’s a lot of precise mechanical activity in a small package. It’s interesting about the condition of the Tower stored examples being poor, allowed to rust. Maybe some rusted so badly nobody wanted to buy them on the civilian market; that’s why they were scrapped. I’ve noticed a few Maynard locks for sale at antique arms fairs over the years. Maybe the rusty / scrapped ones were broken for bits and the locks sold to the gun trade?
Interesting that the Royal Cipher on this American made gun is VxR. I own a few Pattern 1853 rifles, the British made examples are marked V.R, the Belgian Liege made ones are marked V*R, whereas the French St Ettienne example has V+R.
As a complete layperson I've been following the series for a little while but this is the first piece that made me realize the advances in firearm technology that were made in less than a century. If I heard correctly this carbine is from the 1850s, and it feels like it just barely moved away from the age-old muzzle-loaders with ammunition separated in multiple parts. Yet, by the 1950s, we were already in assault rifle era. The leaps made along the way, from self-contained ammunition to the ability to load it faster as a well as, for the gun, to hold onto multiple at a time, and later to even fire them in faster and faster succession up to automatic fire, were astounding both in magnitude and in proximity to one another. I can't help but compare it to how little time there was from first powered flight to landing on the moon. Perhaps a subject more appropriate for a book, but I'd be curious to watch a video breaking down the different technologies that developed in the second half of the 19th century to solve the many problems they faced in all these technical areas -- ammunition, faster loading, loading more shots, faster rate of fire, etc.
I'm not sure if you'll find a video exactly about this developement. More like you can find it in bits and pieces. This may help: ruclips.net/video/YC_Ypmch1y8/видео.html The needle rifles are an early attempt to make a breach-loading rifle with a self-contained cartridge that was suited for military service. This may also be of interest, as it might be one of, if not the first breach loader using a self contained cartridge: ruclips.net/video/lHuNo2XU57g/видео.html
it's even more wild than that this Greene breechloading carbine is ~1850 Henry rifle -1860 (one of the first rifles to use metallic cartridges) Chassepot needle rifle -1866 Colt Single Action Army -1873 (the most famous cowboy gun) Maxim gun - 1884 (first practical machine gun) Lebel rifle -1886 (first smokeless rifle) Borchardt C96 - 1896 (one of the earliest practical automatic pistol and progenitor to the Luger) Madsen machine gun - 1902 (first light machine gun) MP 18/Beretta 1918 -1918 (first sub machine gun) MG 34 - 1934 (first general purpose/universal machine gun) M1 garand - 1936 (first general issue automatic rifle) MP 43 - 1943 (first assault rifle) the late 19th to early 20th were a really fast period of technological development, which can be even more obvious when you look at stuff like aircrafts and automobiles, both were fledgling technologies that became mature in a span of 50-60 years
@@quentintin1 There were a lot of fascinating rifles. The later Mannlicher straight-pull rifles for example with their helicaly threaded bolt were a thing of beauty - if overly complex and fiddly. I would also add the Vetterli rifle to your list. First bolt-action repeater to be adopted by a military and iirc the first repeater over all to be adobted as a standard service rifle - there were some repeater adopted earlier, but only for certain specialised units like some cavalry squadrons. the vetterly was afaik the first to be issued to the rank and file infantry men as their standard weapon.
@@Bird_Dog00 the list was mostly stuff from the top of my head and is just an example of how fast the firearms technology evolved during those 100 years, of course there are a lot of firsts that i could have gone through
Goodness, those locking lugs are massive. They look bigger than the ones on my Mauser and Mosin. I wonder if this would have been able to handle smokeless loads had they been available at the time.
If I was able, I'd probably have chosen a contemporary Sharps rifle or carbine to carry into battle. But this would still be a big advantage over the muzzle-loaders of that time.
I love all of these "not quite there" designs of the middle XIX. Monkey Tail sounds so promising :D Patch on the powder used for setting it in a uniform shape. Patches were also for filling the gap between the powder and the bullet (ball) in the chambers of the revolvers - am I correct? The gap is to avoid not building up the unsafe pressure in the breech. Would such a gap, left on purpose, provide additional projectile velocity (higher pressure) if the ignition is safe?
Patches also prevent the (unlikely) movement of powder past the projectile. Having simultaneous combustion in front of and behind the projectile is a pain, but it also means you keep more of your propellant if the firearm is tipped.
Will you cover some of the early repeaters like the Spencer or the Vetterli in the near future? Lots of interesting developements there. Weird things as well like stair-like magazines in the butt stock...
I am not a mechanic of any sort, but recently have watched a few car shows on TV. One thing they do frequently say is to lubricate any parts where metal moves against metal, or have a gasket between them to cushion them. Would firearms with moving parts be protected in a similar fashion? In this one I notice the importance of gases not escaping from the breech loading mechanism, which surely they would if the parts concerned had slightly worn despite care taken with them?
Yes, it's generally a good idea to keep guns oiled. Some firearm designs are tolerant of running without lube, and many will function for some amount time without it, but you generally don't want to do it if possible. It also helps protect against corrosion.
@@Regolith86 Like I said in this case it seems that unless the two metal surfaces met when the breech was closed there was nothing else to prevent gasses escaping which is why I asked.
Has Ian done this rifle too? I'm sure he did something at least from the same manufacturer. If I recall correctly there was some financial shenanigans with the factory owner? Could that be why it took so long to complete the contract on these Greene rifles?
Hello i need help please im young and i found the revolver of my dad and i press the chien and i don't know of the gun was loaded because There is something weird about it
How do we get two videos this week? Not complaining, but I do wonder. Consering the "Unlisted"-Tag, did someone accidentally put this on the playlist today?
A quick question. Has anyone seen evidence of these carbines being used by the New Zealand Forest Rangers during the Mauri wars? I saw an article in a magazine about 40 years ago that asserted that they did use Greene's.
I'm surprised that waxed cardboard was never tried as a solution when paper didn't pan out because it was too fragile. The piercer at the back of the chamber could have still done the job.
My guess is that it didn't adequately combust. You got a burning ember in the chamber or bore while loading, and you're in a world of hurt potentially. Animal skin cartridges could have been a slightly improved solution.
I might be wrong. But didn't the first Sharps rifle/carbine, come out in 1854? Might have been a better choice. And of course by 1861 you had the Spencer rifle, a very good repeater.
1:51 I'm sorry, but Britain entered Crimean war in 1853. Which leads me to the question: what exactly prompted the emergency adoption of this carbine? 5:24 So not only it's quite uncomfortable to use when mounted, it's also superbly reliant on careful maintenance? No wonder it's so obscure! 6:48 Wait a second, so this abomination actually went through Hythe? I thought better of them!
Britain didn't see any real action in Crimea until September 1854. The British entered the Black Sea on 3 January 1854. I suggest a checking of facts before you err.
@@Safetytrousers I suggest listening to the video before taking that comical mentoring tone of yours, Jonathan clearly says that Britain entered the war in *1855.*
@@F1ghteR41 That does not change what you said, or what I said. And I'm sorry, that although I recently watched the video I do not remember every word over a 16 minute runtime. Britian unequivocally declared war on Russia on 27 March 1854.
@@Safetytrousers That's why I left a timestamp, so people could check out for themselves before being so obtuse. Besides, the description says 'October 1853', the video says 1855, yet you target your petty pedantry on me somehow.
Must have had a kick like a mule and any unfortunate person on the receiving end of it would go down and stay down no matter where they were hit.......................................................
You've never heard of the famous charge of the Light Brigade during the Crimean war? Forward, the Light Brigade! Was there a man dismayed? Not though the soldier knew Someone had blundered Theirs not to make reply Theirs not to reason why Theirs but to do and die Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred
In a local graveyard there's a headstone to an old boy served in Crimea [1853/56] and then the Mutiny [1857/59]. From freezing his nuts off in front of Sebastopol to sweating them off on the Indian plains - bad timing or what?!?
Tell the thousands of men who served in Yeomanry regiments in both world wars they didn'y seerve in combat units en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeomanry#Early_19th_century
Ex cav scout here. Thank you so much for understanding the difference between a troop and a company
Always interesting to see these "what could have been/what if" models and to wonder if and how designs might've been influenced had they been more widely adopted.
Lydd and Hythe ranges in the cold and rain, oooooo dear! Memories. Great video, fascinating stuff.........my heart goes out to the citizens of Ukraine today, God bless, stay strong!
'March & shoot' at Lydd as an 18yr old gunner back in 1974. Trying to hit anything at all with an SMG111 when you're gasping for breath.
Having closely examined one of these guns before, they are impressive not only because of the innovative Maynard tape primer system and innovative breech seal (which I puzzled over when I looked at one; thank you Jonathan for explaining that) but the quality of manufacture is amazing. I would love to know more about its production. It has Enfield inspector stamps where I assume Enfield inspectors checked the parts as the guns were made in the Savage factory. The barrel has fantastic quality 3 groove rifling, the breech locking action is incredibly smooth and precise, and can be manipulated rapidly. Maynard was a dentist by profession but also an inventor of dental things - dubbed the blacksmith dentist by colleagues and he was also into firearm development. The lock functions as a decent trigger mech but also advances the tape from a reel; that’s a lot of precise mechanical activity in a small package. It’s interesting about the condition of the Tower stored examples being poor, allowed to rust. Maybe some rusted so badly nobody wanted to buy them on the civilian market; that’s why they were scrapped. I’ve noticed a few Maynard locks for sale at antique arms fairs over the years. Maybe the rusty / scrapped ones were broken for bits and the locks sold to the gun trade?
You the man Jonathan, love these videos keep ‘em coming
...how the fuck did you comment 8 days ago if it came out 3 days ago?
@@wrenpl9070they have early access probably from donating or joining some kinda subscription on RUclips.
What is Jonathan’s background ? I know I should just look him up but he is beyond impressive. He is to be cherished.
Interesting that the Royal Cipher on this American made gun is VxR. I own a few Pattern 1853 rifles, the British made examples are marked V.R, the Belgian Liege made ones are marked V*R, whereas the French St Ettienne example has V+R.
That is interesting
Really awesome! so fascinating to see some of the most rare and intriguing firearms
Thank you Jonathon, that was very interesting. Cheers.
A good week when I get the answer right! Also makes my late night wednesday work hauls much more enjoyable!
As a complete layperson I've been following the series for a little while but this is the first piece that made me realize the advances in firearm technology that were made in less than a century. If I heard correctly this carbine is from the 1850s, and it feels like it just barely moved away from the age-old muzzle-loaders with ammunition separated in multiple parts. Yet, by the 1950s, we were already in assault rifle era. The leaps made along the way, from self-contained ammunition to the ability to load it faster as a well as, for the gun, to hold onto multiple at a time, and later to even fire them in faster and faster succession up to automatic fire, were astounding both in magnitude and in proximity to one another. I can't help but compare it to how little time there was from first powered flight to landing on the moon.
Perhaps a subject more appropriate for a book, but I'd be curious to watch a video breaking down the different technologies that developed in the second half of the 19th century to solve the many problems they faced in all these technical areas -- ammunition, faster loading, loading more shots, faster rate of fire, etc.
I'm not sure if you'll find a video exactly about this developement.
More like you can find it in bits and pieces.
This may help: ruclips.net/video/YC_Ypmch1y8/видео.html
The needle rifles are an early attempt to make a breach-loading rifle with a self-contained cartridge that was suited for military service.
This may also be of interest, as it might be one of, if not the first breach loader using a self contained cartridge: ruclips.net/video/lHuNo2XU57g/видео.html
it's even more wild than that
this Greene breechloading carbine is ~1850
Henry rifle -1860 (one of the first rifles to use metallic cartridges)
Chassepot needle rifle -1866
Colt Single Action Army -1873 (the most famous cowboy gun)
Maxim gun - 1884 (first practical machine gun)
Lebel rifle -1886 (first smokeless rifle)
Borchardt C96 - 1896 (one of the earliest practical automatic pistol and progenitor to the Luger)
Madsen machine gun - 1902 (first light machine gun)
MP 18/Beretta 1918 -1918 (first sub machine gun)
MG 34 - 1934 (first general purpose/universal machine gun)
M1 garand - 1936 (first general issue automatic rifle)
MP 43 - 1943 (first assault rifle)
the late 19th to early 20th were a really fast period of technological development, which can be even more obvious when you look at stuff like aircrafts and automobiles, both were fledgling technologies that became mature in a span of 50-60 years
@@quentintin1 There were a lot of fascinating rifles. The later Mannlicher straight-pull rifles for example with their helicaly threaded bolt were a thing of beauty - if overly complex and fiddly.
I would also add the Vetterli rifle to your list.
First bolt-action repeater to be adopted by a military and iirc the first repeater over all to be adobted as a standard service rifle - there were some repeater adopted earlier, but only for certain specialised units like some cavalry squadrons. the vetterly was afaik the first to be issued to the rank and file infantry men as their standard weapon.
Smokeless powder was a game changer, because it stopped fouling up the guns and allowed all kinds of tactics that were unfeasible with black powder.
@@Bird_Dog00 the list was mostly stuff from the top of my head and is just an example of how fast the firearms technology evolved during those 100 years, of course there are a lot of firsts that i could have gone through
`Very timely.
Great video. Intriguing design. Thank you.
ITYM 'with award winning firearms and weapons expert Jonathan Ferguson' :)
Goodness, those locking lugs are massive. They look bigger than the ones on my Mauser and Mosin.
I wonder if this would have been able to handle smokeless loads had they been available at the time.
dont know about smokeless----you try it first! ;-)
Not always about the size but metallurgy and other factors.
If I was able, I'd probably have chosen a contemporary Sharps rifle or carbine to carry into battle. But this would still be a big advantage over the muzzle-loaders of that time.
Keep up the good work I really enjoy the vids thank you
the Crimean War is such an interesting Conflict.
Fascinating
Good video and very informative, happened upon your channel and subscribed.
Weird that 2 years in to the war they saw the need so urgent. Obvious are the flaws.
Fascinating video any chance please of Snider Enfield and how the infantries take it from muzzle loading.
I love all of these "not quite there" designs of the middle XIX. Monkey Tail sounds so promising :D
Patch on the powder used for setting it in a uniform shape. Patches were also for filling the gap between the powder and the bullet (ball) in the chambers of the revolvers - am I correct?
The gap is to avoid not building up the unsafe pressure in the breech. Would such a gap, left on purpose, provide additional projectile velocity (higher pressure) if the ignition is safe?
Patches also prevent the (unlikely) movement of powder past the projectile. Having simultaneous combustion in front of and behind the projectile is a pain, but it also means you keep more of your propellant if the firearm is tipped.
In a revolver, a patch (or "wad") will prevent chain-firing, igniting one or more _other_ chambers in the cylinder.
It's incredibly unpredictable to have unpacked powder. It might ignite slowly or very quickly
I'd love a video on the "Monkey tail" system if you get a chance.
Will you cover some of the early repeaters like the Spencer or the Vetterli in the near future?
Lots of interesting developements there.
Weird things as well like stair-like magazines in the butt stock...
Do you have any examples of the Ferguson Rifle? It had very interesting loading system.
Ah. Changing cartridges after you've adopted the gun. That also hurt the M16.
Good ol' Maynard Tape Primer system.
At 10 rounds per minute they must have been wearing a glove on the off hand.
I often wonder how reliable the Maynard system was. Even #11 caps pale in comparison to the reliability of Musket caps.
14:09 Jonathan do you have any historical examples of Skittles in the collection?
I am not a mechanic of any sort, but recently have watched a few car shows on TV. One thing they do frequently say is to lubricate any parts where metal moves against metal, or have a gasket between them to cushion them. Would firearms with moving parts be protected in a similar fashion? In this one I notice the importance of gases not escaping from the breech loading mechanism, which surely they would if the parts concerned had slightly worn despite care taken with them?
Yes, it's generally a good idea to keep guns oiled. Some firearm designs are tolerant of running without lube, and many will function for some amount time without it, but you generally don't want to do it if possible. It also helps protect against corrosion.
@@Regolith86 Like I said in this case it seems that unless the two metal surfaces met when the breech was closed there was nothing else to prevent gasses escaping which is why I asked.
Any chance you could pull out MCEM Sterling Prototype?
ISTR, probably wrong, Ian of ForgottenWeapons has a vi of this carbine, but, doesn't make note of that obdurater moving. Interesti g.
A Westley-Richards episode? Yes, please. 😁😁
Has Ian done this rifle too? I'm sure he did something at least from the same manufacturer. If I recall correctly there was some financial shenanigans with the factory owner? Could that be why it took so long to complete the contract on these Greene rifles?
Hello i need help please im young and i found the revolver of my dad and i press the chien and i don't know of the gun was loaded because There is something weird about it
Hey Jon, any chance you may discuss the "AKMSU" carbine in the future?
it is just a shortened action AKM with folding stock.
it's not that weird, it is basicly the 7.62 version of the AKS-74U
Caps in the back yard just make a noise. Yes but if you take a whole roll and smack it with an 8 lb hammer it makes a larger noise😁.
How do we get two videos this week? Not complaining, but I do wonder. Consering the "Unlisted"-Tag, did someone accidentally put this on the playlist today?
So was this actually used in the crimean war?
A quick question. Has anyone seen evidence of these carbines being used by the New Zealand Forest Rangers during the Mauri wars? I saw an article in a magazine about 40 years ago that asserted that they did use Greene's.
I dont have any info sorrry i only know of the sinder carbine being used by them
Cool
"It has a second nipple"
Yeah that's what I'm used to
"The second nipple is the piercing type"
All right, I can work with that
"The Algorithm" just decided to present me with a Forgotten Firearms video about this gun - from Nov 2017. Interesting to get another view.
That gun must have been a task to reload while on a horse that was trotting/galloping across a rough field..
The standard of photography lets you down.
John
"Fighting in the Crimea"
Well, shit, here we might go (in France and UK case - again)
Fuckin beautiful piece of work mate, they didn’t go there to fuck spiders
"Greene with an E"
Gren
I'm surprised that waxed cardboard was never tried as a solution when paper didn't pan out because it was too fragile. The piercer at the back of the chamber could have still done the job.
My guess is that it didn't adequately combust. You got a burning ember in the chamber or bore while loading, and you're in a world of hurt potentially. Animal skin cartridges could have been a slightly improved solution.
@@SlavicCelery, well, that at least makes sense, thanks.
This screams modern replica chambered in .50AE.
I might be wrong. But didn't the first Sharps rifle/carbine, come out in 1854? Might have been a better choice. And of course by 1861 you had the Spencer rifle, a very good repeater.
God loves guns, which is why He gave us the Connecticut Valley.
Greene with three e.
How inconveniently topical
close your eyes at 3:27 and for half a minute think that he's talking about the other type of "nipple"
1:51 I'm sorry, but Britain entered Crimean war in 1853. Which leads me to the question: what exactly prompted the emergency adoption of this carbine?
5:24 So not only it's quite uncomfortable to use when mounted, it's also superbly reliant on careful maintenance? No wonder it's so obscure!
6:48 Wait a second, so this abomination actually went through Hythe? I thought better of them!
Britain didn't see any real action in Crimea until September 1854.
The British entered the Black Sea on 3 January 1854.
I suggest a checking of facts before you err.
@@Safetytrousers I suggest listening to the video before taking that comical mentoring tone of yours, Jonathan clearly says that Britain entered the war in *1855.*
@@madisntit6547 Yes, but it's not 1855 at all.
@@F1ghteR41 That does not change what you said, or what I said.
And I'm sorry, that although I recently watched the video I do not remember every word over a 16 minute runtime.
Britian unequivocally declared war on Russia on 27 March 1854.
@@Safetytrousers That's why I left a timestamp, so people could check out for themselves before being so obtuse.
Besides, the description says 'October 1853', the video says 1855, yet you target your petty pedantry on me somehow.
"The reason I got both out today..." is to flex on your @$$
Some very satisfying clunks there.
Beautiful weapon. Intriguing design. Such a shame they cut up some of them.
Rate the pawnee t shirt
Давайте расскажите каким украинским Крым был в то время и как уничтожали русских оккупанты из ваших стран.
Must have had a kick like a mule and any unfortunate person on the receiving end of it would go down and stay down no matter where they were hit.......................................................
Kinda a goofy idea. IMO a sharps or Westley Richards monkey tail is a better idea.
didnt know british had a war in crimea, i was thinking russia at first
The more you know.....
You've never heard of the famous charge of the Light Brigade during the Crimean war?
Forward, the Light Brigade!
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred
In a local graveyard there's a headstone to an old boy served in Crimea [1853/56] and then the Mutiny [1857/59].
From freezing his nuts off in front of Sebastopol to sweating them off on the Indian plains - bad timing or what?!?
@@andyleighton6969 Is the name on it Sir Harry Flashman?
Generally speaking, if there's a place, the odds are better than even that the Brits either invaded or had a war there...
A weapon of World War Zero .
:)
Ours 🇺🇦
Lmao
"Greene, with an e"
So, green?🤨
Tell the thousands of men who served in Yeomanry regiments in both world wars they didn'y seerve in combat units en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeomanry#Early_19th_century