I 100% agree with this technique being very nieche for drumset, outside of extreme metal (blast beats), the occasional drumline style snare fill, maybe some drum and bass jungle stuff and some very very fast jazz comping I don't really use this type of motion like at all. It sounds like a lot but it really isn't, and those aren't the type of gigs I manage to get right now 😅 One variation that immediately comes to mind is using the middle finger as well, I tried it just now and it seems doable - that way you get full triplets, but I doubt that this would get significantly faster than just the push pull - thumb index method. Still, maybe there's some room to explore that with moeller strokes. One big application of this technique for drumset is interlacing the push pull with a kick, so you get alternating kick/hand singles - very Jojo Mayer - this technique seems to flow really well into that. Can even go for the Vinnie version where it's Right Hand, Left Kick, Left Hand, Right Kick - though at that point using push pull is really unnessecary since the speed is quadrupled per stroke.
I learned this technique from watching the greyson vids on my own because I never found a video like this haha. Greyson never shows the finger technique below like 240bpm because that’s what it’s best for so this video being around is great. Currently at like 220 on singles wish me luck with that last 20 bpm lol
Very nice technique, but I wouldn't categorize it as a push/pull, more like an advanced finger technique (although I suppose you could argue the thumb is pushing and the index finger is pulling). Push/pull are techniques that produce a stroke when your hand is moving downward, and another when moving upward. In tradtional grip, it's more of a lateral motion - the push is when the hand turns over so the palm faces down, and the pull is when the hand turns back to the normal position. It should look like the tip of the stick is staying in one place, while the butt end is moving side to side. A second push/pull is sort of the reverse of the first, like a two-note Moeller. A third push/pull can be done with the palm facing upward and the fingers straighted under the stick. The fingers do an alternating release and catch as the hand moves down and up slightly.
I can definitely see what you mean, technically it isn't a push-pull. Those push/pulls you mentioned sound very interesting though, I'm not familiar with two of them
You asked for a good example for a use. How about the introduction for the venture's song walk don't run. One full measure of fast 16 notes. I think the tempo is something like 156 bpm
I think that song intro has a speed that can be either muscled-out or you could use the technique. Since the measure is all snare drum it'd be a good place to practice it
Great technical at higher speed. How did you manage the emotional frustration element of development at the lower speeds? How long did it take you to get the technique up to speed? What about pulsing with accents? Good all round lesson!
Thank you! The technique itself is pretty limited as far as the amount of speeds you can achieve with it. Like someone in another comment mentioned, it technically isn't a push-pull but more of a finger technique. And because the fingers are such small muscles it's difficult to get a wide range of tempos -- the technique in this video is just good for trying to get as-fast-as-possible single strokes. Kinda like how with a basketball, there's a very limited range of speeds you can dribble before you get too slow and lose the rhythm. I would recommend trying to get two bounces in a row --- thumb, index --- and not worrying about the speed. Then try to get four like I mentioned int he video --- thumb, index, thumb, index. Again don't worry about speed. It didn't take me very long to develop the technique but I also didn't necessarily try to play it slow. Again like the basketball analogy, when someone learns to dribble they don't try to dribble at a certain speed but instead just try to dribble period. As for pulsing with accents, I haven't tried that, because it's hard to accent with only finger strength. You could mix some wrist-strokes in there though.
You could but then it would take longer to get back to the thumb, and you'd have to count sixteenth notes in phrases of three with your left hand if that makes sense.
Thanks for this. I'm going to try this out today. I've been working my left index finger lately after procrastinating for years, and its slowly getting faster on the practice pad once I'm warmed up (potentially faster than my thumb), but when i tried on a real snare drum it doesn't work so well--at least not yet. Also been working on combo thumb/index stroke together. Perhaps the alternating finger strokes will work out better or at least be another option to use. Again, thanks. Great explanation.
You’re welcome, I’m glad you found it helpful. Left hand index finger is tough for sure and it’s much easier to play it on a pad/tight drumhead. Practicing on a pillow helped me a lot in general
Making slow progress on that left hand. Thanks again. At the moment I'm particularly interested in how it seems to be helping me work toward a cleaner left hand part for five consecutive strokes in the Wilcoxon solo Paradiddle Johnny.
I thought about doing the matched grip technique but I saw there's a lot of videos explaining that one, so I held off on that for this video. Thank you for the sub!
@nickmonticello valid reason! I probably could never do traditional, and definitely not this technique due to an injury and recovering from my 3rd hand surgery. BUT I thought it was really cool. I have to settle in and understand I will never be a fast drummer, and just enjoy playing my style!
I was talking more about moving around the toms or applying the pattern to get faster fills. Buddy Rich's technique is slightly different than the one shown here and as far as I've seen, his left hand remains on the snare drum when he's using the method.
I play match ,
But you explained the left hand the best I seen . Nice video .
You've explained that so well, you've demystified this for me. Thanks a bunch! My homework set for the immediate future haha
Thank you very much for this. After taking a 15 year hiatus. Relearning drums, beginning with jazz. And this has been a huge help.
Traditional grip..love it..
I may have a go at this now on the kit. Everyday is a learning day! :)
Great video Nick!
Thanks . Tommy’s dvd book changed everything for me .
Thank you , great video
I 100% agree with this technique being very nieche for drumset, outside of extreme metal (blast beats), the occasional drumline style snare fill, maybe some drum and bass jungle stuff and some very very fast jazz comping I don't really use this type of motion like at all. It sounds like a lot but it really isn't, and those aren't the type of gigs I manage to get right now 😅
One variation that immediately comes to mind is using the middle finger as well, I tried it just now and it seems doable - that way you get full triplets, but I doubt that this would get significantly faster than just the push pull - thumb index method. Still, maybe there's some room to explore that with moeller strokes.
One big application of this technique for drumset is interlacing the push pull with a kick, so you get alternating kick/hand singles - very Jojo Mayer - this technique seems to flow really well into that. Can even go for the Vinnie version where it's Right Hand, Left Kick, Left Hand, Right Kick - though at that point using push pull is really unnessecary since the speed is quadrupled per stroke.
Awesome great chops
thank you for making this!!
I learned this technique from watching the greyson vids on my own because I never found a video like this haha. Greyson never shows the finger technique below like 240bpm because that’s what it’s best for so this video being around is great. Currently at like 220 on singles wish me luck with that last 20 bpm lol
Excellent explanation. Thanks for posting
Glad it was helpful!
HOLY SHIIIT.
Very nice technique, but I wouldn't categorize it as a push/pull, more like an advanced finger technique (although I suppose you could argue the thumb is pushing and the index finger is pulling). Push/pull are techniques that produce a stroke when your hand is moving downward, and another when moving upward. In tradtional grip, it's more of a lateral motion - the push is when the hand turns over so the palm faces down, and the pull is when the hand turns back to the normal position. It should look like the tip of the stick is staying in one place, while the butt end is moving side to side. A second push/pull is sort of the reverse of the first, like a two-note Moeller. A third push/pull can be done with the palm facing upward and the fingers straighted under the stick. The fingers do an alternating release and catch as the hand moves down and up slightly.
I can definitely see what you mean, technically it isn't a push-pull. Those push/pulls you mentioned sound very interesting though, I'm not familiar with two of them
10:28 he dosnt count its an Alien.
Damn!!!!! Wow
Nice job, Nick.
Great lesson , thanks
You're welcome!
Great hands
You asked for a good example for a use. How about the introduction for the venture's song walk don't run. One full measure of fast 16 notes. I think the tempo is something like 156 bpm
I think that song intro has a speed that can be either muscled-out or you could use the technique. Since the measure is all snare drum it'd be a good place to practice it
Great technical at higher speed. How did you manage the emotional frustration element of development at the lower speeds? How long did it take you to get the technique up to speed? What about pulsing with accents? Good all round lesson!
Thank you!
The technique itself is pretty limited as far as the amount of speeds you can achieve with it. Like someone in another comment mentioned, it technically isn't a push-pull but more of a finger technique. And because the fingers are such small muscles it's difficult to get a wide range of tempos -- the technique in this video is just good for trying to get as-fast-as-possible single strokes. Kinda like how with a basketball, there's a very limited range of speeds you can dribble before you get too slow and lose the rhythm.
I would recommend trying to get two bounces in a row --- thumb, index --- and not worrying about the speed. Then try to get four like I mentioned int he video --- thumb, index, thumb, index. Again don't worry about speed. It didn't take me very long to develop the technique but I also didn't necessarily try to play it slow. Again like the basketball analogy, when someone learns to dribble they don't try to dribble at a certain speed but instead just try to dribble period.
As for pulsing with accents, I haven't tried that, because it's hard to accent with only finger strength. You could mix some wrist-strokes in there though.
Very interesting lesson. I'd love to hear about that pancake set in the back. Pearl?
I believe it's this one: www.ebay.com/itm/145408158608
just a question, why stop at 2 fingers? would it be inefficient to incorporate the middle finger as well?
You could but then it would take longer to get back to the thumb, and you'd have to count sixteenth notes in phrases of three with your left hand if that makes sense.
Thanks for this. I'm going to try this out today. I've been working my left index finger lately after procrastinating for years, and its slowly getting faster on the practice pad once I'm warmed up (potentially faster than my thumb), but when i tried on a real snare drum it doesn't work so well--at least not yet. Also been working on combo thumb/index stroke together. Perhaps the alternating finger strokes will work out better or at least be another option to use. Again, thanks. Great explanation.
You’re welcome, I’m glad you found it helpful. Left hand index finger is tough for sure and it’s much easier to play it on a pad/tight drumhead. Practicing on a pillow helped me a lot in general
Making slow progress on that left hand. Thanks again. At the moment I'm particularly interested in how it seems to be helping me work toward a cleaner left hand part for five consecutive strokes in the Wilcoxon solo Paradiddle Johnny.
Glad I found yahoo! Subbed. Do one using the right or non-traditional grip?? 🙂
I thought about doing the matched grip technique but I saw there's a lot of videos explaining that one, so I held off on that for this video. Thank you for the sub!
@nickmonticello valid reason! I probably could never do traditional, and definitely not this technique due to an injury and recovering from my 3rd hand surgery. BUT I thought it was really cool. I have to settle in and understand I will never be a fast drummer, and just enjoy playing my style!
How can you say there is no drum set application for the traditional grip finger patterns after watching Buddy Rich?
I was talking more about moving around the toms or applying the pattern to get faster fills. Buddy Rich's technique is slightly different than the one shown here and as far as I've seen, his left hand remains on the snare drum when he's using the method.
@@nickmonticello True. He keeps it on the snare.
@@zachary813plus a lot of the time he just wrists it out, which makes me want to give up even more lmao
Nicely Done have you seen Todd Sucherman do the Left Hand paradiddles?
I looked it up after seeing your comment, I guess I forgot he had done them before