Aronra's primary complaint reminds me of something a friend (a Mormon-turned-atheist) once said: "I wanted to believe it was true more than I wanted to know the truth." Seems to me that describes most theists right there.
Only god can give life meaning? My role as an aunt gives my life meaning. Being a daughter gives my life meaning, being a friend gives my life meaning. Being a spouse or parent would give my life meaning. When I hear someone say that only god gives their life meaning, I feel sorry for their friends and family who they think are meaningless.
I think Tracy has many well-considered, well-explained thoughts about the transition from Christian theist to atheist. She's really good at conveying the absurdity of a person's view while still completely validating the feelings that may be associated with coming to grips with losing religion and the comfort it might provide a person. Matt and Aron are great minds on the subjects of theist and atheism, but they tend to be more along the lines of a Dawkins-esque attitude of "the facts should sway you and no emotion need be involved. Period." It seems to me that this denies a lot of the social and emotional aspects of what makes many people believers in the first place. (Or, at least, it's what allows religious indoctrination to find a home in a person's life.)
I have had cats all of my life. What you need is a leather jacket, welding gloves, and a hockey goalie mask. I learned this when I first had to force feed my cat antibiotics.
A P and Allah, Zeus, The flying spaghetti monster and Lord Jeremy Lord Jeremy is the God of Jeremism that i just made up and if you don’t believe in Lord Jeremy, you go to hell for DOUBLE eternity.
Tracie's bit around the 35:00 mark is so true. In the last few years I spent as a believer, I was TERRIFIED of hell because I wasn't convinced I was saved. I prayed and prayed and prayed but felt nothing. I was so scared that salvation was out of my hands and that there was a chance that God wasn't going to save me from hell. It was such a relief when I finally did my own research and found out for myself that God wasn't real, and neither was hell.
I love going back and listening to these podcasts. So much information, that is much, much reality. A reality that we have nearly 3 generations, or over. Of evangelicals that have grown, and grown, especially after WWII. It seems like , now , anyone that was born into a religious family, grow up feeling like their life has this meaning to it, that God has planned for you. Then your told over and over about Hell, Texas, and Florida. That you need to pray, get saved, get baptized. They do all this, but things are not going right as God has planned. I think this is a tipping point for people that live out a murder/ suicide situation. Or have serious mental breakdowns that usually lead to suicide. Like this Corrections officer here in Florence, Alabama. An officer that I've known since 2009. And yes I was an inmate in the jail she was 2nd in command. She was a lonely person from what I've always felt. She had relationships with inmates on a few occasions. And I read several that was sent to my cell mate. But it was just fun for them imo, at that time. Never thought or knew she would be capable or willing to have helped a capital murder suspect, already on a 75 year sentence for Limestone County, Alabama, escape, her having a clean, unblemished record, to sell her $140,000 home for $93,000, knowing exactly what the outcome is going to be, because she has worked in that jail and with corrections for nearly 17 years, I mean, to me that screams mental health issue all the way! And another person has failed to get gods approval for that planned life he has for you. Idk, this probably dosnet make any freaking sense. But it does to me! And I also have an opinion on anyone working for everything from construction, to law enforcement, medical, emergency services, judge's, heavy machinery operations, teachers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, attorneys, prisoners, parents, and therapists. All should get their mental health checked from every 3 months, to every year. I think when you go to school for the first time, and start learning ABC's and 123's. There will be mental health evaluations at the onset. Just to find out where they stand. And if a few children need some serious attention before they grow up to have miserable, up and down, unwanted, unappreciated, depressing lives, then we just saved not only this child's life, but maybe the lives of others. And treating a child with racist tendencies, anger issues, bullying, and so forth. And those that are scared, shy, have the fear of being social, etc. To have someone supporting you, speaking with you, helping you, encouraging you, and there is no financial burden that will be left upon these kids and their future, I have no doubt that everything that is an issue will drop, and everything that is needed for growth will be respected and responsibility becomes more desirable. Fuck, it probably sounds like shit! But I would have no doubt it would work. So much you can accomplish a 4 and 5 years old. I know I got off the subject. I apologize.
***** I personally don't believe that. I disagree with people who make that claim. I think there's strong evidence against the Christian God for example. In that case, I think there's absence of evidence and there's evidence of absence, just like there's evidence for the non-existence of common Santa Claus stories.
***** That's all highly speculative, and irrelevant to theism and the surrounding discourse. Why don't you present your idea to the professional astrophysicists and cosmologists who are capable of critically analyzing it, rather than shotgunning it into an unrelated discussion? P.S. just as a word of advice, truly genius scientific leaps forward don't happen by disproving and replacing proven theories, they do so by standing on top of proven theories. Einstein didn't disprove and replace maxwell and galileo's apparently contradicting experimental results, he created a theory that synthesized them so they no longer contradicted.
My most favourite people amongst Atheists, learn so much from them.Seth Andrews, Matt Dillahunty, Tracy Harris, AronRa. So grateful they exist while I am alive. Love to see them. If I was in USA
The way Pascals Wager was always explained to me was as a starting point, you weren't supposed to stay in that "only doing this out of fear and to take the safe route" mode forever, you were eventually supposed to move on from that to true belief. Likewise you may have gotten baptized or converted or whatever your denomination of choice uses out of fear of hell, but that again was just supposed to be a starting point, and you were expected to eventually move on from that to embracing God's love and respecting his authority beyond mere fear of punishment.
Tracy absolutely nails it at around 20:30. You look at nature and see what it accomplishes and then turn around and say nature isn't capable of accomplishing what it does. Or to argue that foundational logical principles need some further grounding in an absolute being in order to makes sense in our natural world. That is my #1 pet peeve with apologetics.
When I get into a youtube debate with a Christian apologist concerning Pascal's Wager, I just tell them when my belief in God ceased, the belief of Satan, demons and hell ceased as well. They usually go away.
i really enjoyed this discussion, thank you for arranging it. the personal experiences from tracy as a child being indoctrinated was quite disturbing (and informative). i have discussions with my child about god(s), we have talks about the myriad of deities that humanity believe(d) in, greek mythology is a good way to ease them in (which is what aron was on about). these particular gods can be entertaining, my child and i also have a wonderful time looking up the various multi-armed, multi-coloured gods you can view online. again a great way to discuss our history and mythology, being from australia we also have a bunch of aboriginal "dreamtime" stories as well, i love how those stories can actually contain information that is remotely useful (sometimes). just recently, a religious peer announced they believed in "god" to my child, she asked them "oh really, which one"… so proud :)
Frizzurd hah yes, speaking a sun into existence is so much more realistic than vomiting one up... or not ;), actually now that you mention it, vomiting up a sun DOES make more sense, i mean where DO those carrots come from, i swear i don't eat carrots and yet...
The most effective argument I've heard is the god of the gaps. Most of my friends just spout the cosmological argument as well as say "how else would life come about on earth" and ignore the idea of abiogenesis. The best way to fight religious spread is scientific education.
Tracie's explanation of her journey out of belief (32:45) sounds like mine almost exactly. Though my praying for answers happened mostly while serving as a Mormon missionary, spending all day trying to convert people to a religion that deep down I didn't believe... that was fun.
Great show!! I'm sure that you guys have thought of this before, but I like it. As I'm watching the debates with the presupposition apologists it seems like the majority of their base arguments are that no one can truly know anything unless they already know everything or have access to a being that knows everything. The huge hole in that argument is that since we're human & can't know anything, then we also can never know God for the same reasons .
Hating Nature Box is pointless. And that company, unlike others, wasn't afraid to be associated with this show...and that's considering that Nature Box has Christian-show-hosts promoting them, too and they're not afraid to loose those agreements. One Christian show that endorses N/B is particularly lunatic in its Freemasons/Anti-Christ/Trilateral Commission/Mark-of-the-Beast predictions.
Pascal's wager: if you live your whole life not serving a god, and you're wrong you will be punished for all eternity. If you live your whole life serving god and there is no god, you've lived a good life. My father had these words for me as a child. I doubt he knew of anyone named Pascal or his wager. The utmost in compromise, and a life lived in fear. Never. Never. Never will I live my life leading a lie to avoid an implausible punishment from an implausible being.
not to mention that it's logically flawed, because you would have to worship all gods, practice all religions and denominations which conflict with each other, and believe in anything really, just in case.
PluckySmurf serving a god does not necessarily mean living a good life. Especially a psychopathic god like the Christian god. Not "serving" a god does not exclude being an honest, kind, giving, decent person.
I was very interested in the talk on Pascals wager. I get it all the time. AronRa's take on it is exactly what happened to me. I amazes me that anyone who has given it even a moment's thought, still thinks it is a valid argument.
Starting at 32:40 to 38:30, Tracie Harris description of growing up in a fundamentalist Christian family and what goes through a childs mind is spot on. : )
Last time I walked into a church was for my fundy cousin's wedding. Listening to the grotesque, misogynistic vows, hearing a choice of hymns that were something like "God's Name Is A Hammer," what I felt was the sort of amused horror a parent might feel seeing their child covered head-to-toe in what the parent can only hope is mud. The self-satirical nature of the production, the total irrelevance and obsolescence of their entire belief system......yes, I _did_ feel the presence of god, and the only positive thing I can say is it was slightly educational.
I became a believer, as an atheist, when I had some very powerful "spiritual" experiences, as a teenager.. Spent about a dozen years as a believer. Back to atheism for decades now.
I never really had the whole fear of Hell thing happen during my journey from belief to non-belief. I just never really gave that particular part much thought. I had plenty of other issues with religion that pretty much occupied my thinking. What I did grapple with was the realization that this was my one and only life, and when I die...GAME OVER. Even today I deal with that thought, though not quite as much as I did in the beginning.
The main reason I love this channel is the voice of the show as well as one of guests on this particular podcast (who is a frequent contributor) are men from the heart of the Bible Belt. Seth is from Tulsa, OK and (I just learned this in this podcast) that AronRa is from Texas. An ex of mine had family in Texas and her mother was not just a believer, but a Bible-thumping know-it-all. At the time I was with her, I would have identified myself more of an agnostic, but no way did she know that. However, the niece of my ex started dating a very outspoken atheist. Family gatherings became very uncomfortable after she found this out. She would force the issue and try to "prove" her position for hours if the boyfriend continued engaging with her.
The goal to any dispute in discussion is to know the truth. "When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest."
Not just the threat of reintroducing uncertainty into one's life -- for those who were born into religious families, losing belief can spell a total unraveling of one's life and self. The older you are, the worse it is. One can emerge from a belief system into which they've invested decades of time, effort, and attention; lose their support system, turn around to try and find others to connect with, and find that other people simply *can not* relate to them. People who have been properly raised, educated, and cared for will meanwhile have had decades of practice in critical thinking, decision making, as well as practice navigating close, authentic relationships in which everyone involved exercises healthy boundaries, accountability, intimacy, and consent. They'll have had decades of exploring, discovering, developing, and enjoying themselves guilt-free (instead of denying, doubting, limiting, and self-flagellating themselves). They'll have a *much* better and a much broader range of skills and experiences. For some, to lose belief late in life is to emerge without divine protection and companionship, and without hope of heaven; as a person who will be seen as worse than a child -- someone who has nothing together, who can never catch up, someone who can never be regarded by secular people as being a person worth knowing. The amount of strength necessary to face all that is incredible....but that's about all they'll have going for them.
Dogs don't have a transcendent purpose? I've been walking through woodlands with dogs before. They run round in the bushes, snuffle everything in sight, fetch sticks, investigate everything, roll around in the long grass... . Sure looks to me as though they're transcending something. And in a vicariously pleasurable sort of way for a few moments I'm a dog. So much win, and I say that as a cat person.
Oh my -error 404 not found-! you're comming to alaska! haha how awesome; i'm so excited to hear that! I'll definitely be going :3 sorry to hear about your cat though
Pascal's Wager has always been a topic that frustrates the hell out of me (HA!), but somehow it found a way to make itself even less credible to my mind. I'd never really thought of it in these terms until it occurred to me while listening to this episode. To expand on the fire insurance analogy: It's not only "just in case" insurance, and it's not even "I am convinced I'm going to need it" insurance. It's "buying this GUARANTEES me that I absolutely WILL NOT need it, maybe my house wouldn't have burned down anyway but now I know FOR A FACT that my house is not going to burn down" insurance. Isn't that antinomic? Something can't be the insurance on something for which it is also the cure. I'm not sure what classical logic would say is the correct terminology for the flaw in the argument, but it at least seems incompatible.
The people on this show are exactly why I am now proud to call myself an atheist. I have done what most people do not take the time to do, I have listened to the arguments, and then I took the time to do the investigation to answer the questions that I had. The answers are out there but you have to be willing to leave your indoctrination at the door. If you do that, you will be able to live an honest life through logic and reason. I believe religious people are some of the most dishonest people on the planet. My favorite caller on TAE was the Matt and Traci "Goodbye you piece of s**t!" guy. episode 795 Shane the christian FART SOUND
For my daughter's 7th BD I got her a Himmy. I took her to the vet for grooming. Why? She had to be sedated before hand, otherwise she bit and scratched the groomer horribly. At Pet Smart they sell natural calming agents for Kitties. I gave this to my Baby Boy before flying from Charlotte NC to Phoenix. Whatever it is (chemo brain) it worked well
The Dillahunty-Bruggencate debate was painful. Not Dillahunty, himself. His most consistent problem throughout seemed to be he prepared too much for Sye. Sye had a LOT of problems, almost all of which stemmed from his presuppositionalist point of view. He also seemed to blow a gasket a couple times and attacked the event organizer as well. But I hated that his argument through the whole debate was "God exists because I know it's true because I know God exists."
Why this talk about the lack of value in a dogs life? Seriously, are there any happier animals (humans included) on the planet? Well, maybe dolphins... But to them, I bet they just love living, with or without purpose. Life itself is its purpose. Any other value you want to put into life, having "worth" is totally subjective.
I believe, biologically speaking, the purpose of life is sex, reproduction, and ensuring our spawn survive long enough to survive. If you want more meaning, you have to invent it.
MPythonGirl Sure, biologically speaking. I know I have urges, but I'm not aware in general, that that is why I live. I doubt dogs live just to procreate either. They have lots of other hobbies too, like chewing shit up, chasing other shit around, hang out with friends (even the shitty ones), make bonds within their group etc.
Counter apologetics in a nutshell: a) God is a special pleading by definition. b) The amount of evidence for every single god ever though of is exactly the same.
On Pascal's wager it's not that you didn't lose anything if it turned out there wasn't a god. What you lost was much of your life believing in a bullshit story when you could have spent that time doing better things.
@@realitychannelwithtomparos8238 There are thousands of religions, so Pascal's wager depends on picking the right one, which humanity may not have discovered yet, then living perfectly. So a rewording might be "If god(s?) and hell are real, then the chance of me picking the exact right religion and doing so flawlessly is too low to be worth it for all the effort."
Bullshit story?Planning where you spend your eternity is the most important decision of your life, Get saved now before it's too late. You do not want to go to hell!!.
@Please Complete All Fields The truth is believing in the lord Jesus christ, he is the ticket to salvation if you don't accept him you'll fire throughout eternity, it's your decision.
Tom Paros just in Christianity, out of the countless religions, there are over 40k irreconcilable denominations and amongst them even more interpretations of, which is the true one? I just pray you have the correct interpretation amongst the >40k denominations of christianity. Halle down the loo ya
I finally had time to listen to this episode all the way through. My reaction. I wish I had a pocket book of the material covered in this episode. Not only would I buy that pocket book, I would buy several, incase I lost one. You guys were dog backwards on this episode :)
Matt's argument against Pascal's Wager that there is a cost to being a believer was first expressed by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:19 " If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."
Starting at 32:44 Tracie Harris gives a spectacular first-hand description of how indoctrination works. IMO, her talk is a strong argument for indoctrination of children being child abuse.
36:22 Tracie should do seances or something, that explained my incursion into religion very, very accurately, even the Pascal's wager part (I thought I was being original when I came up with that in my own). 46:14 JW's: "End is right around the corner!"
Evolution is not based on pure chance. Every life form that has ever existed has done its best to survive and reproduce. Everything that has ever lived has effected its own future and influenced the other living things and its environment, no matter how small the effects were, or how successful they were.
God needs a good PR guy. Post pictures of him petting puppies. Have him do some charity work. Make an appearance or two on shows hosted by his skeptics.
moaning about adverts, the hard life of the internet age. Just be happy its not vhs, vinyl, 8 track etc.. Just stop moaning and enjoy the show that Seth puts all his energy and passion into then smile.
Logic, like math, is just a model - one we've invented. It's super useful, but that doesn't mean its properties imply anything about the world outside of that model. TAG arguments just assume ("bam!") that these models define the world, rather than just provide tools for working in it.
I hate the lion cut! Someone gave my cat a lion cut once. I get my cat shorn every few months , but I specify that I do NOT want a lion cut; I want her shorn. Like Seth says, she looks funny for a while, but every time I pick her up I hear that she is very cooperative and "sweet." She also seems quite happy for a good month.
I agree completely, then I remembered our President is a habitual liar and the Vice President believes Adam and Eve is a true story and that evolution is invented by the devil. This is why these 4 need more attention!
The capacity of humans to lie to themselves is nearly infinite. If a believer drops their suppositions then their sense of self and entire understanding of the world are destroyed. To them, it is death which is one of the greatest fears most folks have.
At 47: 00.... Of course there are other religions that claim exclusivity. Many decades ago, Christian theologian and philosopher Dr. John Edward Carnell proposed a systematic method for testing any belief system to determine its validity. Although it would be lengthy to list here, check out Ravi Zacharias' book "Jesus Among Other gods" for an explanation.
Sorry about Kat. Mine (Pookey) is mercifully not requiring that service. Matt was fine, under those circumstances. His main problem is his conventional background in common logic. But it was a pointless endeavor anyway. Amazing that Matt hadn't vomited on Sye's feet.
I know this video is super old, but for anyone reading the comments, PLEASE NEVER GROOM YOUR CAT YOURSELF. It's terribly dangerous for you and your cat. Cats have very thin stretchy skin that cuts and tears very easily and cat bites can be very serious because they're puncture wounds that can heal over with bacteria still inside the wound. Sounds like Seth went to a shitty groomer and he certainly should not have been charged full price for an unfinished groom. Always go to a licensed groomer or your vet. :)
Pascal's wager (Wikipedia) "Pascal begins by painting a situation where both the existence and non-existence of God are impossible to prove by human reason. So, supposing that reason cannot determine the truth between the two options, one must "wager" by weighing the possible consequences. Pascal’s assumption is that, when it comes to making the decision, no one can refuse to participate; withholding assent is impossible because we are already "embarked", effectively living out the choice. We only have two things to stake, our "reason" and our "happiness". Pascal considers that if there is "equal risk of loss and gain" (i.e. a coin toss), then human reason is powerless to address the question of whether God exists. That being the case, then human reason can only decide the question according to possible resulting happiness of the decision, weighing the gain and loss in believing that God exists and likewise in believing that God does not exist. ... He then argues that it is simply unconscionable by comparison to bet against an eternal life of happiness for the possibility of gaining nothing. The wise decision is to wager that God exists, since "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing", meaning one can gain eternal life if God exists, but if not, one will be no worse off in death than if one had not believed. On the other hand, if you bet against God, win or lose, you either gain nothing or lose everything. You are either unavoidably annihilated (in which case, nothing matters one way or the other) or lose the opportunity of eternal happiness..."
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It's my 4 favorite atheists in one podcast! Excellent! :)
Aronra's primary complaint reminds me of something a friend (a Mormon-turned-atheist) once said: "I wanted to believe it was true more than I wanted to know the truth." Seems to me that describes most theists right there.
Hi, I'm a mormon turned thiest. I can honestly say that im happier knowing there isn't a judgy guy in the clowds watching everything I do.
@@davidhummer1195 you said theist instead of atheist. (Unless you ment to say that)
Why would God judge us ? On what bases would he Judge us? And, does God still Judge us today?
Only god can give life meaning?
My role as an aunt gives my life meaning. Being a daughter gives my life meaning, being a friend gives my life meaning. Being a spouse or parent would give my life meaning.
When I hear someone say that only god gives their life meaning, I feel sorry for their friends and family who they think are meaningless.
It is silly to think you’d be any of those things if god hadn’t made you in the first place.
the meaning to the colours? Eg blue, What’sred, green? The meaning they have is what you assign them, just like life
Being alive itself brings life meaning
I think Tracy has many well-considered, well-explained thoughts about the transition from Christian theist to atheist. She's really good at conveying the absurdity of a person's view while still completely validating the feelings that may be associated with coming to grips with losing religion and the comfort it might provide a person. Matt and Aron are great minds on the subjects of theist and atheism, but they tend to be more along the lines of a Dawkins-esque attitude of "the facts should sway you and no emotion need be involved. Period." It seems to me that this denies a lot of the social and emotional aspects of what makes many people believers in the first place. (Or, at least, it's what allows religious indoctrination to find a home in a person's life.)
Seth, thanks for bringing the A-team onto the show.
Believers and non-believers alike will benefit from this podcast. Covers much of what I spent the last year trying to find elsewhere in the inter-web.
I have had cats all of my life. What you need is a leather jacket, welding gloves, and a hockey goalie mask.
I learned this when I first had to force feed my cat antibiotics.
Hahaha :-) Perhaps a jock-strap for good measure too
The same people that bring up Pascal's Wager to argue in favor of their faith, should be held to the same argument when it comes to Climate Change.
A P and Allah, Zeus, The flying spaghetti monster and Lord Jeremy
Lord Jeremy is the God of Jeremism that i just made up and if you don’t believe in Lord Jeremy, you go to hell for DOUBLE eternity.
That is brilliant. Thank you for that comment!
Excellent point, A P!
"A wonderfully misspent youth that I could still cling to." You and me both AronRa!!! Up the Irons!
Get Tracie Harris to be a more regular guest on TTA. Always enjoyed her segments on The Atheist Experience. She's always spot on.
I am sure I am not the only one that thinks Matt and Traci are the two best hosts on TAE. I love Jen and John too.
Tracie's bit around the 35:00 mark is so true. In the last few years I spent as a believer, I was TERRIFIED of hell because I wasn't convinced I was saved. I prayed and prayed and prayed but felt nothing. I was so scared that salvation was out of my hands and that there was a chance that God wasn't going to save me from hell. It was such a relief when I finally did my own research and found out for myself that God wasn't real, and neither was hell.
I love going back and listening to these podcasts. So much information, that is much, much reality. A reality that we have nearly 3 generations, or over. Of evangelicals that have grown, and grown, especially after WWII. It seems like , now , anyone that was born into a religious family, grow up feeling like their life has this meaning to it, that God has planned for you. Then your told over and over about Hell, Texas, and Florida. That you need to pray, get saved, get baptized. They do all this, but things are not going right as God has planned. I think this is a tipping point for people that live out a murder/ suicide situation. Or have serious mental breakdowns that usually lead to suicide. Like this Corrections officer here in Florence, Alabama. An officer that I've known since 2009. And yes I was an inmate in the jail she was 2nd in command. She was a lonely person from what I've always felt. She had relationships with inmates on a few occasions. And I read several that was sent to my cell mate. But it was just fun for them imo, at that time. Never thought or knew she would be capable or willing to have helped a capital murder suspect, already on a 75 year sentence for Limestone County, Alabama, escape, her having a clean, unblemished record, to sell her $140,000 home for $93,000, knowing exactly what the outcome is going to be, because she has worked in that jail and with corrections for nearly 17 years, I mean, to me that screams mental health issue all the way! And another person has failed to get gods approval for that planned life he has for you. Idk, this probably dosnet make any freaking sense. But it does to me! And I also have an opinion on anyone working for everything from construction, to law enforcement, medical, emergency services, judge's, heavy machinery operations, teachers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, attorneys, prisoners, parents, and therapists. All should get their mental health checked from every 3 months, to every year. I think when you go to school for the first time, and start learning ABC's and 123's. There will be mental health evaluations at the onset. Just to find out where they stand. And if a few children need some serious attention before they grow up to have miserable, up and down, unwanted, unappreciated, depressing lives, then we just saved not only this child's life, but maybe the lives of others. And treating a child with racist tendencies, anger issues, bullying, and so forth. And those that are scared, shy, have the fear of being social, etc. To have someone supporting you, speaking with you, helping you, encouraging you, and there is no financial burden that will be left upon these kids and their future, I have no doubt that everything that is an issue will drop, and everything that is needed for growth will be respected and responsibility becomes more desirable. Fuck, it probably sounds like shit! But I would have no doubt it would work. So much you can accomplish a 4 and 5 years old. I know I got off the subject. I apologize.
Best comment of the discussion was
Q: Why is your argument not special pleading?
A: Because it's God.
Ultimate irony.
That is one of the most self-defeating statements I have ever heard! That, my friend, is an EPIC FAIL.
***** I personally don't believe that. I disagree with people who make that claim. I think there's strong evidence against the Christian God for example. In that case, I think there's absence of evidence and there's evidence of absence, just like there's evidence for the non-existence of common Santa Claus stories.
***** Well, I try to be a good doxastically open skeptic. Feel free to try me.
***** You're delusional. Get back on the meds.
*****
That's all highly speculative, and irrelevant to theism and the surrounding discourse. Why don't you present your idea to the professional astrophysicists and cosmologists who are capable of critically analyzing it, rather than shotgunning it into an unrelated discussion?
P.S. just as a word of advice, truly genius scientific leaps forward don't happen by disproving and replacing proven theories, they do so by standing on top of proven theories. Einstein didn't disprove and replace maxwell and galileo's apparently contradicting experimental results, he created a theory that synthesized them so they no longer contradicted.
I think Tracie absolutely nails it at 38:00. A very astute and uncynical explanation of religious conviction.
Good podcast. Title was intriguing and it was good to hear 3 different thoughts (or completing thoughts) to each topic.
I love this show..is it single?
My most favourite people amongst Atheists, learn so much from them.Seth Andrews, Matt Dillahunty, Tracy Harris, AronRa. So grateful they exist while I am alive. Love to see them. If I was in USA
Just getting started on the podcast, I gotta say, this is gonna be an amazing episode. So many awesome speakers in two episodes! Thank you Seth!
The way Pascals Wager was always explained to me was as a starting point, you weren't supposed to stay in that "only doing this out of fear and to take the safe route" mode forever, you were eventually supposed to move on from that to true belief.
Likewise you may have gotten baptized or converted or whatever your denomination of choice uses out of fear of hell, but that again was just supposed to be a starting point, and you were expected to eventually move on from that to embracing God's love and respecting his authority beyond mere fear of punishment.
Tracy absolutely nails it at around 20:30. You look at nature and see what it accomplishes and then turn around and say nature isn't capable of accomplishing what it does. Or to argue that foundational logical principles need some further grounding in an absolute being in order to makes sense in our natural world. That is my #1 pet peeve with apologetics.
I've been wanting this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you! Cannot wait for part two guys!
Premium stuff, Seth! The discussion next week with emails and calls should be RIPE!
Superb episode, all four touch on really good and deep subjects.
One of your best shows to date. Thank you!
Agree.... Part 2 soon,,!
When I get into a youtube debate with a Christian apologist concerning Pascal's Wager, I just tell them when my belief in God ceased, the belief of Satan, demons and hell ceased as well. They usually go away.
was really looking forward to an episode about this! :)
I like Tracey, she's awesome. Has a slightly different way of talking about topics, kind of feels different and new.
Ha! The rant on the lion cut is priceless :)
Lol I loved when he said "Frankenkitty"
Looked for pics on FB but couldn't find any. So funny.
i really enjoyed this discussion, thank you for arranging it.
the personal experiences from tracy as a child being indoctrinated was quite disturbing (and informative).
i have discussions with my child about god(s), we have talks about the myriad of deities that humanity believe(d) in, greek mythology is a good way to ease them in (which is what aron was on about). these particular gods can be entertaining, my child and i also have a wonderful time looking up the various multi-armed, multi-coloured gods you can view online. again a great way to discuss our history and mythology, being from australia we also have a bunch of aboriginal "dreamtime" stories as well, i love how those stories can actually contain information that is remotely useful (sometimes).
just recently, a religious peer announced they believed in "god" to my child, she asked them "oh really, which one"… so proud :)
Frizzurd hah yes, speaking a sun into existence is so much more realistic than vomiting one up... or not ;), actually now that you mention it, vomiting up a sun DOES make more sense, i mean where DO those carrots come from, i swear i don't eat carrots and yet...
Goode episode! Looking forward to part two.
Awesome episode much respect to aron, Tracie(spelling), and seth.
The most effective argument I've heard is the god of the gaps. Most of my friends just spout the cosmological argument as well as say "how else would life come about on earth" and ignore the idea of abiogenesis. The best way to fight religious spread is scientific education.
Tracie's explanation of her journey out of belief (32:45) sounds like mine almost exactly. Though my praying for answers happened mostly while serving as a Mormon missionary, spending all day trying to convert people to a religion that deep down I didn't believe... that was fun.
Halfway through, and I am already finding this to be a great show!
thanks for your time and welcome all 4 of you
Good show. Thanks for putting all the shows on RUclips.....
Great show!! I'm sure that you guys have thought of this before, but I like it. As I'm watching the debates with the presupposition apologists it seems like the majority of their base arguments are that no one can truly know anything unless they already know everything or have access to a being that knows everything. The huge hole in that argument is that since we're human & can't know anything, then we also can never know God for the same reasons .
1:18:31 "It's this weird little echo chamber or circle jerk". I didn't expect Tracie to say "circle jerk". Lol. Props to you Tracie.
Hating Nature Box is pointless. And that company, unlike others, wasn't afraid to be associated with this show...and that's considering that Nature Box has Christian-show-hosts promoting them, too and they're not afraid to loose those agreements. One Christian show that endorses N/B is particularly lunatic in its Freemasons/Anti-Christ/Trilateral Commission/Mark-of-the-Beast predictions.
So much awesomeness in one podcast.
Pascal's wager: if you live your whole life not serving a god, and you're wrong you will be punished for all eternity. If you live your whole life serving god and there is no god, you've lived a good life.
My father had these words for me as a child. I doubt he knew of anyone named Pascal or his wager. The utmost in compromise, and a life lived in fear. Never. Never. Never will I live my life leading a lie to avoid an implausible punishment from an implausible being.
not to mention that it's logically flawed, because you would have to worship all gods, practice all religions and denominations which conflict with each other, and believe in anything really, just in case.
+PluckySmurf not only that, you think you can fool god by faking belief
They love this god they are afraid of. That doesn't sound like love it sounds more like they are covering their butts out of fear.
PluckySmurf serving a god does not necessarily mean living a good life. Especially a psychopathic god like the Christian god. Not "serving" a god does not exclude being an honest, kind, giving, decent person.
My pop was superstitious too. Wasted almost every frickin' Sunday of his life... It's a strange feeling to know you're smarter than your dad.
I was very interested in the talk on Pascals wager. I get it all the time.
AronRa's take on it is exactly what happened to me. I amazes me that anyone who has given it even a moment's thought, still thinks it is a valid argument.
Great discussion you all!
I love what Matt said about “are these the reasons you became a believer?” I always think the same thing when I hear a William Lain Craig type.
Starting at 32:40 to 38:30, Tracie Harris description of growing up in a fundamentalist Christian family and what goes through a childs mind is spot on. : )
Tracie is SO RIGHT about the broken self trust part!! OMGoodness that has plagued my life.
Worst argument I got in person, "When you walk into a church, don't you just feel god's presence??" Me: No.
Last time I walked into a church was for my fundy cousin's wedding. Listening to the grotesque, misogynistic vows, hearing a choice of hymns that were something like "God's Name Is A Hammer," what I felt was the sort of amused horror a parent might feel seeing their child covered head-to-toe in what the parent can only hope is mud. The self-satirical nature of the production, the total irrelevance and obsolescence of their entire belief system......yes, I _did_ feel the presence of god, and the only positive thing I can say is it was slightly educational.
I too have “fundy cousins”. I stopped going to family gatherings several years ago because I just couldn’t take the bullshit anymore.
I became a believer, as an atheist, when I had some very powerful "spiritual" experiences, as a teenager.. Spent about a dozen years as a believer. Back to atheism for decades now.
Excellent episode. Thank you. I would love the transcript.
I never really had the whole fear of Hell thing happen during my journey from belief to non-belief. I just never really gave that particular part much thought. I had plenty of other issues with religion that pretty much occupied my thinking. What I did grapple with was the realization that this was my one and only life, and when I die...GAME OVER. Even today I deal with that thought, though not quite as much as I did in the beginning.
The main reason I love this channel is the voice of the show as well as one of guests on this particular podcast (who is a frequent contributor) are men from the heart of the Bible Belt. Seth is from Tulsa, OK and (I just learned this in this podcast) that AronRa is from Texas. An ex of mine had family in Texas and her mother was not just a believer, but a Bible-thumping know-it-all. At the time I was with her, I would have identified myself more of an agnostic, but no way did she know that. However, the niece of my ex started dating a very outspoken atheist. Family gatherings became very uncomfortable after she found this out.
She would force the issue and try to "prove" her position for hours if the boyfriend continued engaging with her.
The goal to any dispute in discussion is to know the truth.
"When an honest
man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest."
Not just the threat of reintroducing uncertainty into one's life -- for those who were born into religious families, losing belief can spell a total unraveling of one's life and self. The older you are, the worse it is.
One can emerge from a belief system into which they've invested decades of time, effort, and attention; lose their support system, turn around to try and find others to connect with, and find that other people simply *can not* relate to them.
People who have been properly raised, educated, and cared for will meanwhile have had decades of practice in critical thinking, decision making, as well as practice navigating close, authentic relationships in which everyone involved exercises healthy boundaries, accountability, intimacy, and consent. They'll have had decades of exploring, discovering, developing, and enjoying themselves guilt-free (instead of denying, doubting, limiting, and self-flagellating themselves). They'll have a *much* better and a much broader range of skills and experiences.
For some, to lose belief late in life is to emerge without divine protection and companionship, and without hope of heaven; as a person who will be seen as worse than a child -- someone who has nothing together, who can never catch up, someone who can never be regarded by secular people as being a person worth knowing.
The amount of strength necessary to face all that is incredible....but that's about all they'll have going for them.
I’m lucky; since the age when I could think i was never a believer.
Dogs don't have a transcendent purpose?
I've been walking through woodlands with dogs before. They run round in the bushes, snuffle everything in sight, fetch sticks, investigate everything, roll around in the long grass... . Sure looks to me as though they're transcending something.
And in a vicariously pleasurable sort of way for a few moments I'm a dog.
So much win, and I say that as a cat person.
Oh my -error 404 not found-! you're comming to alaska! haha how awesome; i'm so excited to hear that! I'll definitely be going :3 sorry to hear about your cat though
Pascal's Wager has always been a topic that frustrates the hell out of me (HA!), but somehow it found a way to make itself even less credible to my mind.
I'd never really thought of it in these terms until it occurred to me while listening to this episode. To expand on the fire insurance analogy: It's not only "just in case" insurance, and it's not even "I am convinced I'm going to need it" insurance. It's "buying this GUARANTEES me that I absolutely WILL NOT need it, maybe my house wouldn't have burned down anyway but now I know FOR A FACT that my house is not going to burn down" insurance. Isn't that antinomic? Something can't be the insurance on something for which it is also the cure. I'm not sure what classical logic would say is the correct terminology for the flaw in the argument, but it at least seems incompatible.
That cat story is just fantastic.
And the rest is awesome too
Rock on o/
The people on this show are exactly why I am now proud to call myself an atheist. I have done what most people do not take the time to do, I have listened to the arguments, and then I took the time to do the investigation to answer the questions that I had. The answers are out there but you have to be willing to leave your indoctrination at the door. If you do that, you will be able to live an honest life through logic and reason. I believe religious people are some of the most dishonest people on the planet. My favorite caller on TAE was the Matt and Traci "Goodbye you piece of s**t!" guy. episode 795 Shane the christian FART SOUND
I'm laughing so hard I'm crying about your cat! That's HILARIOUS!
For my daughter's 7th BD I got her a Himmy. I took her to the vet for grooming. Why? She had to be sedated before hand, otherwise she bit and scratched the groomer horribly. At Pet Smart they sell natural calming agents for Kitties. I gave this to my Baby Boy before flying from Charlotte NC to Phoenix. Whatever it is (chemo brain) it worked well
I was about to check your FB for the cat photo… and then noticed this was posted 7 YEARS AGO!! 😂
The Dillahunty-Bruggencate debate was painful. Not Dillahunty, himself. His most consistent problem throughout seemed to be he prepared too much for Sye.
Sye had a LOT of problems, almost all of which stemmed from his presuppositionalist point of view. He also seemed to blow a gasket a couple times and attacked the event organizer as well. But I hated that his argument through the whole debate was "God exists because I know it's true because I know God exists."
Why this talk about the lack of value in a dogs life? Seriously, are there any happier animals (humans included) on the planet? Well, maybe dolphins... But to them, I bet they just love living, with or without purpose. Life itself is its purpose. Any other value you want to put into life, having "worth" is totally subjective.
I believe, biologically speaking, the purpose of life is sex, reproduction, and ensuring our spawn survive long enough to survive. If you want more meaning, you have to invent it.
MPythonGirl Sure, biologically speaking. I know I have urges, but I'm not aware in general, that that is why I live. I doubt dogs live just to procreate either. They have lots of other hobbies too, like chewing shit up, chasing other shit around, hang out with friends (even the shitty ones), make bonds within their group etc.
HAH! Tracie said "circle jerk". Made my night XD
Meaning of Life? or Purpose of Life?
For me, I am the one who find my meaning or purpose of my life.
Tracie nailed it at 36:00. Saw some real parallels in my life.
Counter apologetics in a nutshell:
a) God is a special pleading by definition.
b) The amount of evidence for every single god ever though of is exactly the same.
On Pascal's wager it's not that you didn't lose anything if it turned out there wasn't a god. What you lost was much of your life believing in a bullshit story when you could have spent that time doing better things.
Why would you risk your soul and suffer throughout eternity if you're wrong.
@@realitychannelwithtomparos8238 There are thousands of religions, so Pascal's wager depends on picking the right one, which humanity may not have discovered yet, then living perfectly. So a rewording might be "If god(s?) and hell are real, then the chance of me picking the exact right religion and doing so flawlessly is too low to be worth it for all the effort."
Bullshit story?Planning where you spend your eternity is the most important decision of your life, Get saved now before it's too late. You do not want to go to hell!!.
@Please Complete All Fields The truth is believing in the lord Jesus christ, he is the ticket to salvation if you don't accept him you'll fire throughout eternity, it's your decision.
Tom Paros just in Christianity, out of the countless religions, there are over 40k irreconcilable denominations and amongst them even more interpretations of, which is the true one? I just pray you have the correct interpretation amongst the >40k denominations of christianity. Halle down the loo ya
I finally had time to listen to this episode all the way through. My reaction. I wish I had a pocket book of the material covered in this episode. Not only would I buy that pocket book, I would buy several, incase I lost one. You guys were dog backwards on this episode :)
Wooo-hoo from Anchorage! I am SO there on the 31st! If you haven't lined up a good place to stay, might I recommend the Arctic Fox Inn?
Matt's argument against Pascal's Wager that there is a cost to being a believer was first expressed by the Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:19 " If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied."
Starting at 32:44 Tracie Harris gives a spectacular first-hand description of how indoctrination works. IMO, her talk is a strong argument for indoctrination of children being child abuse.
Awesome. I love when Seth does the southern accent 😂
36:22 Tracie should do seances or something, that explained my incursion into religion very, very accurately, even the Pascal's wager part (I thought I was being original when I came up with that in my own).
46:14 JW's: "End is right around the corner!"
Evolution is not based on pure chance.
Every life form that has ever existed has done its best to survive and reproduce. Everything that has ever lived has effected its own future and influenced the other living things and its environment, no matter how small the effects were, or how successful they were.
God needs a good PR guy. Post pictures of him petting puppies. Have him do some charity work. Make an appearance or two on shows hosted by his skeptics.
I also think that time is an open-interval (the asymptote thing that AronRa talked about). I would be interested to hear the counterargument.
about the podcast, I'm only about halfway through it, but i already think it's tremendous...
Very good show guys...and gals.
43:58 "Pascals RAGER".
Jk, great vid. Thumbs way up.
moaning about adverts, the hard life of the internet age. Just be happy its not vhs, vinyl, 8 track etc.. Just stop moaning and enjoy the show that Seth puts all his energy and passion into then smile.
The lady has explained the real problem
Religion are born out of psychological issues. Primarily fear. It’s so primal that with all knowledge we gained, it still is an uphill battle.
A groomer messed up my mom's western terrier one time, she chewed them out and started going 45 minutes away to get him trimmed from now on.
Logic, like math, is just a model - one we've invented. It's super useful, but that doesn't mean its properties imply anything about the world outside of that model. TAG arguments just assume ("bam!") that these models define the world, rather than just provide tools for working in it.
I hate the lion cut! Someone gave my cat a lion cut once. I get my cat shorn every few months , but I specify that I do NOT want a lion cut; I want her shorn. Like Seth says, she looks funny for a while, but every time I pick her up I hear that she is very cooperative and "sweet." She also seems quite happy for a good month.
During my days of programming, we had to contend with Turbo Pascal's Wager. Luckily, it didn't take long to convert to C ++.
The modern day four horsemen..these are my fave 4
I agree completely, then I remembered our President is a habitual liar and the Vice President believes Adam and Eve is a true story and that evolution is invented by the devil. This is why these 4 need more attention!
The capacity of humans to lie to themselves is nearly infinite. If a believer drops their suppositions then their sense of self and entire understanding of the world are destroyed. To them, it is death which is one of the greatest fears most folks have.
If the ultimate meaning of life is to serve our master, how is that different from the life of a dog?
Woof! Woof!
At 47: 00.... Of course there are other religions that claim exclusivity. Many decades ago, Christian theologian and philosopher Dr. John Edward Carnell proposed a systematic method for testing any belief system to determine its validity. Although it would be lengthy to list here, check out Ravi Zacharias' book "Jesus Among Other gods" for an explanation.
Sorry about Kat. Mine (Pookey) is mercifully not requiring that service. Matt was fine, under those circumstances. His main problem is his conventional background in common logic. But it was a pointless endeavor anyway. Amazing that Matt hadn't vomited on Sye's feet.
I can hear Sye saying to all of this:"But you can't justify your reasoning, neener, neener, neener." lol
Tracy!!! Love her!!!
Hahahaha.. that was the best rant ever, Seth! (about your cat's botched haircut)*
I know this video is super old, but for anyone reading the comments, PLEASE NEVER GROOM YOUR CAT YOURSELF. It's terribly dangerous for you and your cat. Cats have very thin stretchy skin that cuts and tears very easily and cat bites can be very serious because they're puncture wounds that can heal over with bacteria still inside the wound. Sounds like Seth went to a shitty groomer and he certainly should not have been charged full price for an unfinished groom. Always go to a licensed groomer or your vet. :)
Pascal's wager (Wikipedia)
"Pascal begins by painting a situation where both the existence and non-existence of God are impossible to prove by human reason. So, supposing that reason cannot determine the truth between the two options, one must "wager" by weighing the possible consequences. Pascal’s assumption is that, when it comes to making the decision, no one can refuse to participate; withholding assent is impossible because we are already "embarked", effectively living out the choice.
We only have two things to stake, our "reason" and our "happiness". Pascal considers that if there is "equal risk of loss and gain" (i.e. a coin toss), then human reason is powerless to address the question of whether God exists. That being the case, then human reason can only decide the question according to possible resulting happiness of the decision, weighing the gain and loss in believing that God exists and likewise in believing that God does not exist.
... He then argues that it is simply unconscionable by comparison to bet against an eternal life of happiness for the possibility of gaining nothing. The wise decision is to wager that God exists, since "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing", meaning one can gain eternal life if God exists, but if not, one will be no worse off in death than if one had not believed.
On the other hand, if you bet against God, win or lose, you either gain nothing or lose everything. You are either unavoidably annihilated (in which case, nothing matters one way or the other) or lose the opportunity of eternal happiness..."
😸😸😸Seth, trying to doze off to your soothing stories, but you have me LMFAO LISTENING to your cat story.har har har!!👍👍
I was an accident that doesn't make my life pointless.
You were a surprise, NOT an accident.
my favourite part is you talking bout your cat :D