Trail Braking EXPLAINED 3 Levels Of Difficulty
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
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Here's the full video where the last part came from :) ruclips.net/video/dxs0YDmxq80/видео.html
Sooooo...
KISS doesn't mean Keep It Simple Smith?
Are you sure?
I was in the Corps as well and I distinctly remember hearing: Keep it simple Smith.
For years I was afraid of that damn front brake in the curves. Always thought (by believing the myths) that either the loaded front wheel would push out from under me and I'd go down or the bike would straighten right up and I'd plow right through, off the cliff or into the oncoming lane. This kinda training with practice, practice, practice makes so much sense, one thinks it shoulda been obvious in the first place. Thank you! Hooyah! ⚓️🇺🇸
Absolutely LOVE the fact you added the clip into the video, instead of only linking the video in the description. Love it! Its cool to learn from you and also see little improvements to your editing skills and taking feedback seriously. I haven't been following you for more than a year, but I appreciate what you provide to the community. 👍 I look forward to seeing more progress, and gaining more understanding so I can ride better.
This is literally trail braking for dummies 😂 very well explained.
I think that trail breaking is sometimes hard to explain because some people never carry enough energy on the public road to allow a textbook trail brake because they are already going slow enough to begin with. In other words if you are already maintaining a reasonable cautious road safe speed you will usually slow down enough with a light brief press of the lever it won't ever carry into a noticeable trail break. So for some people the speed is just not there to really experience trail braking. You might have to go to a track.
You can trail brake at any speed for any corner if you want...just to practice...maybe it's just 5% then trailing off to 0%. Everyone should take more high level courses and do a lot of track days. MotoJitsu.com/courses
It's not the speed, it's the width of the track. When you have enough track width, you can turn in earlier and more slowly in order to make the corner shorter, and that's where you have more time/space/shape to overlap significant braking while leaned not too deep, yet. You shouldn't have much use/opportunity for trail braking in street corners, unless you're turning in too early/slowly due to lack of skill. For the narrowness of your lane in street riding, you should almost never want to turn in early. It would provide no advantage in "lap time" and would only increase your risk. You'd only be doing so if you can't turn the bike fast enough to take the better line. In most street/canyon corners, the better rider would turn in later and quicker than you do; he'd carry more apex speed than you; he'd be safer than you; and he wouldn't be trail braking while gapping you. This better rider would only trail brake in select few corners in the twisties, and only after he knows them very well.
Thank you Greg! I just finished the MSF basic course a few weeks ago, I bought safety gear, downloaded you app yesterday and I WILL practice, as soon as I get a lightweight motorcycle.
This is the one skill which has smoothed out my riding and increased my control by orders of magnitude. "Trailing-off braking", I like to call it, because it is immediately more explanatory.
Progressive braking saved my life many times already.. learning defenitely can save lives
Calling it Progressive or hell regressive braking would really help with the explanation. Trail takes your mind to other places
So the bit you call 3 Advanced, 4:22 actually says it is only needed if you are riding at speeds faster than the posted limits and also speeds faster than you can see clearly through the bends (limit points)? Just what some of have been saying all along.
If you're riding at a slower pace, you may not even need the brakes at all...doesn't mean you shouldn't learn and practice it.
It's not strictly related to speed.
The deeper you lean, the more you have to start caring about engine brakes, too. If you want to lean 45-50 degrees, you can easily lose rear traction and lowside if you are leaving throttle completely closed while you dick around to finish trailing off a much smaller amount of front brake. The fastest race that is somewhat similar to street riding is the TT Isle of Man. Since the track is only twice as wide as a normal street and there's no passing, it's much like (stupidly irresponsible) street riding. These racers do almost no trail braking, since it becomes important to roll to neutral throttle by time bike is leaned all the way over.
In most racing, the track is significantly wider and there's passing. When you have to pass slower riders in a corner, you often turn in earlier than is optimal. Turning in so early that your lap time would be slower (if that slower rider wasn't in your way). Turning in too early gives you a path around this rider and allows you to temporarily get ahead by making the corner a bit shorter. But the corner will get tighter in the end, since you turned in early, so you are still slowing the bike down in the first half. This is where you do most of the trail braking in track riding/racing.
It's true that if a racer enters corner while braking very late and hard, still doing a near stoppie as he enters the corner, he will trail brake. But he's only going to do that in corners so wide that he can start turning in early and gradually enough to still make it through. Also, it is very uncommon for this to be the best thing to do, even on a race track. In a time trail, this will rarely be occur, except by mistake. When you see Toprak turning in while his rear tire is still in the air, it's while racing, not in a time trial. It's usually suboptimal; it's stretching the limit to pass another rider at this specific point on the track, even though the end result is a slightly slower lap time and greatly increased danger/skill to pull off.
It's true that in higher cc classes, this early trail braking line will sometimes produce slightly faster lap time in specific corners, since these bikes can accelerate so fast. The slower apex/finish speed isn't as detrimental, so getting to the apex slightly quicker can be a net win. So in some cases, the early trail braking line is not strictly for passing; it's also for lap time. But this will never apply to you on the street. Street not wide enough. Again, see TT racers. They have skill. They don't trail brake.
Like a TT racer, you should never turn in too early on the street. There's not enough track width to waste for that. Getting to the inside line too early before you can see the exit is always bad for street riding. You would only benefit from trail braking if you run out of skill at steering; say you turn in too early, because you lack proper skill in that area. Or if your bike runs out of lean angle before your tires and skill, so at some point you have to intentionally start turning in a little too early while braking (you really have to know the corner very well to be cutting it this close).
If you have skill and a bike that can lean, you won't benefit from trail braking in street riding, almost ever, unless you consider "maintenance braking" while going downhill as trail braking.
A year ago before watching to your channel i was feeling anxious riding on twisties but now it became really fun thanks
A benefit of tail braking is that you can enter blind turns with more confidence and less drama. If the turn tightens more than expected or if there is an obstacle you can just add more brake pressure.
A downside is you will wear the flank of the front tire more quickly, usually the right side.
I was up in the mountains over the weekend. I ended up bleeding off too much speed ahead of the bend, thus being almost completely off the brake by the time I had any significant angle on.
I think I need more practice.
we all do
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Of all the the trail braking videos I've watched this one is ABSOLUTELY the best explanation and instruction of this techique...WELL DONE
Glad it was helpful!
Trail braking is wasted of time. Don’t bother
you have a lot to learn
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Another great session thank you sir
So if I understood correctly, trail braking allows us to increase traction during a corner?
If done right
How could anyone not understand or not like this video!?? 👑👍😻
because some people still think that trail braking means to keep the brake light on for the entire turn even if they don't need to slow down, and then they are baffled when they realize they're going 20 mph through a turn that could have easily been done at 40 mph. some people also foolishly overlap the throttle and also apply the brakes through a corner because they think that is trail braking.
Practice, practice, practice…
I finally have found someone to explain exactly the definition of trail braking as well as proper technique. Thank you so very much! It makes so much more sense now.
Great video. Thnx.
Maybe I missed it in this video but as I release the brake slowly do I apply throttle slowly and when I get out of the corner and the bike is facing the direction I want/need I go full yolo?
if im going to corner i usually downshift 1 or 2 then i lean if im still faster in the corner i added front and rear brake or sometimes i just controlled my throttle. i love watching your tips and tricks im applying in the my daily ride or in a very long ride. solo ride here. thanks
Now that made sense. I’ve been trying to understand it for the longest time. Gonna try it this afternoon in a parking lot
👍🏼👍🏼
Can you make a video comparing rear brake only vs front brake only vs both at exact same time vs front brake and rear brake with decreasing pressure? (As in you on a bike doing those examples)
already have lots of videos of the brakes and when and where and why, etc.
Thx for explaining, if you brake this way your a pretty good rider in my opinion.
Can you make a video explaining that engine breaking and trail breaking does it matter.?
Have lots of videos of it already
Ok, thanks. I'll check them out
I just realized one thing I am doing wrong going through turns... incorrect tongue position! 🤣
May sound like a dumb question, but other than the initial clutch use to down shift into the turn…are we using the clutch at all in the turn?
Amigo, thanks yet again for an amplification of the concept of trail braking: it can be a confusing concept. I've watched other videos and they don't explain trail braking enough! But your emphasis, with those hand-motions of yours, REALLY cements it into one's brain, "trailing off on the lean"--so thank you for that! So, rubber-side down; and you be safe! Semper Fi, brother!
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for explaining this - again… Can you discuss or “adjust/adapt” this technique for bikes with telelever and/or linked brakes bikes (e.g. GS/GSA)? I assume - and it’s what I’ve been doing - that I apply the exact same technique as the physics fundamentals translate directly. Just wondering if there are any practical technique adaptations for bikes with these technologies that you’ve discovered.
Bike doesn’t matter at all
Even if a Telever fork does not dive, the weight-transfer still happens.
So, just as Greg said. Bike does not matter.
Nicely explained 👌
❤️ Share it!
Hi Greg,
When I go uphill corner, I usually use throttle to maintain speed through the corner.
I tried to have more speed in to trail brake but the speed decrease really quick so I had to get back to throtlle again, during the corner.
So what is the solution in that situation, if the corner is really steep
Depending on your pace you may not need the brakes at all
Trail braking really becomes important on steep downhill turns.
Makes a lot of sense, Ive been doing it wrong. Thanks
DUDE..... Why are u usuing your left hand to demonstrate breaking??!! Newbees will be cofused and crash!!!
I cannot take you seriously....Sorrry!!
no they won't
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I like it, I notice some of my fellow UK watchers are confusing your long curves, with our short less than 90 degree bends. Tail braking is a must for a for a limit point that is being chased for around the curve , in UK our limit points, predominantly come and go quickly due to type of bends. 👍
IMHO Trail Braking should be called Brake Trailing or Trailing the Brakes. Though I trail my brake in curves/twisties, often I wasn't sure what it actually meant.
Thanks for the clarity 📷
👍🏼
Once I figured it out I realized it’s a similar feel and mechanics to carving on a snowboard, skiing, skateboarding, etc.
Your front forks are like your legs when you compress the knees to go into the turn and slowly push out and straighten your legs on the corner exit; which is like your forks pushing out as you slowly release brake pressure and “hold your carve” through the turn. 🙏🏍️💨
Are you down shifting at any point as you are trail braking prior to accelerating out of the turn? Just to clarify you are off the throttle the entire trail brake? Thanks for your videos. Slowly learning and following you curriculum.
If you need to downshift, you do it before leaning.
And you’re always completely off the throttle when on the brake, trail braking or not
A group of 6 been riding fast since the 70s. We come from a motorcycle town and started going to the races then.
The days of Kenny Robert's and Eddy Lawson. ... And after 3 days camping and "hydrating" in the stands the 150mi ride home for us 20yo. thru the twisties of New England was quite spirated to say the least. We all got a few years on the track and as Bonnevilles became CBRs and Nina's we realized there wasn't going to be much future in that direction on the public byways...
So..instead of moving on into GSXR mentality we turned our weekend 300 mi camping trips to 3000 mi week long camping trips -as back road as possible- aboard more long legged machines...primarily European....
At some point we adopted a "ride fast as hell ....without using your breaks"
game/ philosophy. Down shift all you want but if we see a break light ...that will be disscussed* 😂 around the camp fire. 😂😅😂. 40mph corners at 65 ...no breaks...and no cranking it up on the straights...that's for kids.
Establish the quickest pace you can go on a given road... maintain that- no brakes. Down shifting only...makes an interesting ride.
50 yrs. No cops, no crashes...
(Well ...some cops...but where we go FAST there are very few..or no cops.
Going fast In Town is stupid on several levels)
Now...go play nice..
your video is mirrored - I could not understand why you are braking with the left hand until I realised the error ;-)
ok
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Bingo... I've become a much more informed rider, all thanks to you. Thank you.
I feel like trailbraking slows me down perhaps I still don't understand it
no kidding...you're braking...and you're 0% throttle...that's what happens, you slow down lol
@MotoJitsu I mean feel slower going thru turns vs doing the slow look press roll technique perhaps my pace isn't fast enough to get the benefits of trail braking technique
Slow look press roll is the basic cornering formula from the MSF beginner course...there's MUCH more to learn above and beyond that...don't take that stuff too seriously outside that environment with brand new riders in a parking lot.
You're probably not going quick enough to understand the benefits or get them.
At a slower pace, maybe you don't even need to brakes at all.
Take more courses, start with ChampU it's an online course you can do right now. MotoJitsu.com/courses
I think I'm not going quick enough I understand the theory of how it works but getting the timing of it right takes some practice
Excellent! You definitely accomplished KISS 😂
Nice clip and thnks for the explanation - but why ist the image mirrored?
You re so good teacher! Thanks!!
Your channel helped me learn how to ride. I just started motovlogging. Thanks for all the great tips.
One of your best vids
Looking forward to practice trail braking !! Thanks @motojitsu
Well I have always found that being smooth in everything I do on a motorbike you'll naturally find these notions but that is me
Why do beginners need trail braking at all 😊
Why learn suspension set up? Why learn body position? Why learn anything?
@@MotoJitsu Because it is advanced technique and itt is good to get good intermediate habbits before proceeding further forward :)
Take more courses MotoJitsu.com/courses
Teaching method. Definitely a Marine. Great video.
thanks
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so what if your engine has so much back pressure you never need to break?
instagram.com/motojitsuclub/
Many of us activate our front brakes using our right hand. Using the left hand for the front brake as shown in the first two minutes of the video doesn't improve safety. I would advice against it. Use the right hand for throttle and brakes. Use the left hand for the clutch.
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The video is mirrored cuz he’s using a webcam to record, look at the text on the books.
Is it possible, should or is it dangerous to do Trail Breaking in the rain?
ever see professional racers in the rain? you can do anything in the rain, only depends on how you're doing it.
So when going into a turn am I touching the clutch at all ? Like say I shift down into 1st gear for the turn do I keep the clutch pulled in ? Or can I stay in 2nd gear and just use the breaks ? When do I use the clutch for turning is what I need to know pretty much. Do I use the clutch at all ?
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Don't use the clutch in the corner. Change down gears before the corner.
sorry. I'm not sure if you address this in any of your videos or not but just wondering if you roll on the throttle slowly as you trail brake?
You’re always at 0% throttle before you ever brake
@@MotoJitsu ah yes but I mean when you are slowly release the brake, do you at that time start rolling the throttle slowly too? or only roll the throttle after the apex at corner exit?
@@jamescsl88I have this question also
you literally make the wait before spring exciting.
This is probably a stupid question, but do you maintain the throttle while letting off the brake or completely off the throttle?
no..you always go to 0% throttle
@@MotoJitsu, once again maybe a stupid question but still - what about keeping some throttle open to have the centrifugal force just in case you need to lean further? I've been always taught at the courses that you have to keep the throttle open while cornering to have the control over the lean angle - so when you lean more you gradually open the throttle.
This is what embarrasses me a lot in trail braking - how can one keep the throttle open while putting the pressure on the front brake while cornering and gradually releasing the brake with simultaneously opening the throttle.
I understand that in case you need to lean further you may just close the front brake harder however I have a feeling that the centrifugal force won't be enough to compensate the lean angle in this case.
Again, no.
If you were taught that in a course, you need to take higher level courses. MotoJitsu.com/courses start with ChampU it's an online course you can take right now.
You don't keep throttle open while trail braking.
@@MotoJitsu thank you Sir for your response and valuable instructions
@@MotoJitsu, many thanks, Greg! Am I right there is no such situation when you keep the throttle open together with the front brake closing even to a little extent? So this is a rule of thumb - opened throttle, released brakes and vice versa.
P.S. we are not taking burnouts etc. :)
Growing up riding and racing dirt bikes, proper brake use was imperative. These days, I run a k1600GT when I want to have a spirited ride. She is a heavy girl, but with proper braking, she does pretty darn good. At 6'2", 230lbs. The sport bikes are just too cramped for me. Very good advice, and I always want to be a better rider. Takes a lot of practice. Thanks!
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I've never really used this on the street and still a bit of a fast rider. I typically opt for a down shift, obtain desired speed and open throttle. I don't hang off bike on street either, typically opting for a slight shift in seat and counterbalance. Current bikes are Z900RS and Superduke1290r
you should learn, it's a superpower once you master it
MotoJitsu.com/courses
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Problem is (and it is ingrained in me as a car driver) ... I brake into a corner and accelerate out of it... help ? Seriously.
I have lots of videos on the topic
I didn't ride for 20 years and ended up forgetting all the fundamentals I had acquired before I stopped. I got a new bike, and oh boy, I could have been killed so many times, because I was a rookie all over again. Watching your vids has helped me a lot, in being reminded of so many techniques I had completely forgotten about!
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Thanks! Such a simple concept yet needs practice as well.
Why mirrored video?
Well said my man, nice straight to the point.
thanks!
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What about the rear brake? Can you use it to help yourself anywhere except for low speed stuff? I saw some onboard videos of pro racers and quite a few of them touched the rear brake mid corner for some reason,or nearing corner exit. Never could understand why
ruclips.net/video/Hh8NIdsVr8I/видео.html
Moto Jitsu, you are a great instructor. Thanks for putting these videos out. Have learned so much from your work.
glad to hear it
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2:27 taking the thousand yard stare to another level!
My understanding, trail braking has nothing to do with the rear brake.
you can trail brake with the front or rear
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I guess it depends on how you define the term. I always interpreted it to mean the application of front brake to collapse the forks, reducing rake and trail to improve maneuverability through the corner. That has nothing to do with the rear brake.The more general definition of trailing off the brakes never made much sense to me.
these are great explanations!
Thank you a lot!))
I wish you had classes in Florida! Your vids are great and the info is very practical and easy to understand. Thank you!
MotoJitsu.com/courses
Watched this in 1.5x speed and had a good laugh. Thank you for explaining it
Glad it helped!
Do I add throttle while trailing off the front brake?
Why would you?
All those faces hahaha funny bastard hahahahaha
Trail braking is game changing in my riding! Thx for sharing your knowledge!
:)
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love the facial expressions 😂😂
I've seen so many videos about trail braking and lean and counter lean around corners and have come to the conclusion that everyone is right. Each method has its place and time. Nobody has yet made a video giving precise measurements of curve radius when lean or counter lean apply. The average person hasn't yet had enough experience to decide when and where to use what. I ride on highways and small Japanese streets and realize that all techniques are required and relevant. Thank you Greg for such an enlightening channel.
And no one can give those measurements because it’s all preference. 10 people on the same bike going through the same turn may do 10 different things. I say learn & practice everything and then experiment with different techniques on various corners to learn when something may or may not be relevant.
I love the fascial expressions!!!!!
This is awesome! I'm a newbie rider. Just started riding for about a month now. Question: Do I have to downshift before trail braking a corner?
Thanks! ✌🏽
Downshifting has nothing to do with trail braking
@@MotoJitsu Got it. Thank you! 🙏🏼
❤
great ! thank you
This technique is something that I didn't learn when I did my basic learners course. It wasn't a problem at higher speeds when engine braking and timing the corner would suffice, but at lower speeds I was anything but smooth. I was crying into my beer with my local bike mechanic who just so happened to be a club racer. That's when I got taught to trail brake. Everything changed then. I try to time my corners if I'm doing any sort of speed and try and rely on engine braking. But on slower, tighter stuff, trail braking is second nature.
And that's where I'd put in a caution for beginners. Start off slowly. I most certainly had a good off when I was pushing the boundaries in practice. No pain and minimal damage, but I'm glad I was going slowly.
of course it wasn't...its a beginner course. You weren't taught suspension set up or full body position either I'm sure...can't teach PhD info to pre-schoolers.
plus, a lot of riders aren't going quick enough on the street to use the brakes at all before a corner, let alone trail brake.
@@MotoJitsu All true. Thanks for the content.
glad you enjoy it....1,000+ videos
brilliant tutorial bro! thank you
Hi! My name is Rith. I have been subscribed to your site for so long and I thank you so much for sharing the riding motorcycle skills. I have learned so much from you; yet actually having a chance to really practice it. Every time I get on my bike, I always think about your techniques. It helps so much. Here I have a question about TRAIL BRAKING. You have mentioned a lot on your videos about using the brake at the corner; BUT YOU NEVER MENTION ABOUT DEDUCING CLUTH. I am a little confuse when coming the turn corner and starting using Trail Braking. Can you please explain to me about it? Should I reduce CLUT before entering the corner and start Trail Braking. Hope you don't mind...Thank you so much!
because the clutch has nothing to do with trail braking
@@MotoJitsu thank you for quick response. Again it’s a silly question. I know that I have to slow down by applying the brake and zero throttle. What about the clutch? Since I have to slow the bike down, do I have to reduce gear or clutch?
you only touch the clutch if you're shifting
@@MotoJitsu that’s what I meant. When come to the corner and have to slow down with Throl and brake, do I have to shift down first? Sorry…sorry this is a stupid question. I always confused. Thanks
Greg is the GOAT 🐐
Hi Greg, is ok use trail breaking with wet road?
Yup
Nice explanation.
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Awesome vid
Thank You
You're welcome
linktr.ee/GregWidmar
Loved this
Hi Greg
Should you be in a gear where there is a minimal amount of engine breaking when trail breaking - how do you judge which gear to be in?
Gear your in depends on the speed you’re going
@@MotoJitsudoes being in a low, mid, or high rpm range matter while trail braking?
No...doesn't matter at all.
@@MotoJitsu thanks
So the point of trail braking is to keep the weight on the front for all the benefits, got it, but once you eventually open maintain throttle, the suspension will rise, I suppose, so, I gotta try this out myself, kinda confused
Not really since you’ll still be in the middle of the corner and the “sideways” forces keep it pretty compressed
@@MotoJitsu got it
Do ChampU, online course
@@MotoJitsu what I gotta do is ride more and watch less theory, lol, winter here, it's been weeks
No idea what ChampU? 40 videos by professionals racers who many also ride on the street.
why is he miming braking with his left hand
Great video
Thanks! Share it
Great explanation
Glad it was helpful!
🎉
It's annoying as hell that you will get failed on a driver exam here in Sweden if you trail break.
Who cares what’s required in a beginner course. Do what you have to do to pass
Best explanation I've heard. Really makes me think a lot of folks don't really know what trail braking actually is cause I sure didn't.
thanks
i am a dirt rider never use the front brakes or your going down... now just started on the open highway at fast speeds the rear brake only is all i use, i use it so much that i got a thing called brake fade, where i was with a pack of world class fast riders my sons friends that ride just super crazy fast and i can keep up and in the middle of the pack my only braking i really use is rear brake failed i mean no brake at all going 70 MPH going into a turn and nothing i was drifting out onto the shoulder super fast and no rear brake and closer to the sand on the side of the lane up in the mountains area and going so fast all i could do was lean like i was no a sport bike and was on a full size Harley super heavy just lean more and made it out, did not think of down shifting i was in a good gear just have to ride it out. i got home okay and changed out rear brake system completely.
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