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The Saw Stop system works by conductivity. When there is no ground no electricity flows so the system does not trigger. Same concept as lightening striking an airliner in the air not grounded no damage. Had the workpiece been damp or the metal touching a ground (the saw body or frame) it would have definitely triggered. You are right to have the blade inspected after an event like that. Keep up the good work.
@@StumpyNubs You did not understand my comment. Ground is relative and you would be completing a circuit for current to flow (we are talking millivolts and milliamps or even less because the electronics can detect very slight changes.) If you wanted to get shocked (perish the thought) you would need some significant voltage source to overcome your internal resistance. Also note that you have a 3 prong plug so yes the saw frame IS grounded. You can't break OHM's law. ;)
FWIW, one of the jobs I used to do on an old apartment building we maintained was to use a router to cut mortises in old window frames. I used a magnet to try to find the nails that were in the frame but I often didn't get every nail out. Hitting even a single nail was enough to wreck the router bit. After I switched to a carbide bit the router just cut through small nails like they weren't there and it survived cutting though an occasional medium gauge nail that was used to hold the window in frame in place. ETA: the brand of router bits I switched to was Whiteside.
We have ALL hit a nail or two in our days in the shop. Your advice was spot on, check the blade to make sure it was not messed up in any way then go about your day. We all worry about getting "hit me in the pretty face" at one point or another. That was a classic. Have an awesome rest of your day and week.
As a handyman I've repaired more than my share of roofs, and sometimes the ply is rotten so I have to replace a section. I always snap a chalk line on one side of the row of nail heads in the truss when I go to cut out the rotten part, but it never fails some are angled across my line, so I've cut through countless framing nails with a 7-1/4" circular saw. I used to check the teeth on the blade every time it happened but damage was such a rarity that it quickly ceased being worth the effort.
@@Dwayne_Bearup I'd think skill-saw blades might be built to better withstand accidental encounters with fasteners. A demolition blade definitely wouldn't care.
Thanks for the very lucid explanation of how the SawStop mechanism works! I have always wondered about that, but never felt motivated to figure it out. Nice to have the explanation "served up on a plate"
I saw sawdust explode in a high school shop class. No one was seriously hurt, but scared the crap out us. Gave me a lifelong lesson on the danger of sawdust whenever a spark is around.
I think technically it conflagrates but yeah, sawdust is an oft overlooked hazard, also capable of autoignition depending on certain factors, certain woods, certain oils get near it, so on, and can cause electrical fires in other circumstances. Try to keep the amount manageable and having a small extinguisher or even a bucket of sand is not a terrible idea for your workshop.
There was a stunt that members of Dabney House did from time to time which involved making huge fireballs that mushroomed their way up into the air a hundred feet or so. On the order of 3 cubic ft of sawdust was involved. And no, I'm not going to tell you how to do it. At least nobody was surprised when it happened (with the possible exception of the good citizens of San Marino). It's a miracle that any of us survived Caltech in the 1980s; a surprisingly wild place back then.
For all those of you that find themselves using brads and pin nails a lot, and know that you will be sawing through them: there is a U.S. company that manufactures composite nails and brads (i.e. made from fiber reinforced resin). These are designed to be ground and sawn, and they cannot rust. Maybe worth a consideration...
Always with the timely advice, James!! It's downright uncanny! These are exactly some of the questions I was pondering while thinking about an upcoming project with a complicated glue-up, and whether to use brad nails in certain locations as temporary clamps, against the likelihood of breaking down the project later and re-using the wood, which re-purposing may involve cutting a brad or two. While not exactly planning on cutting through them, it was more a question of greater or lesser probability, and I didn't want to waste the wood if it worked out that way. Thank you, sir!
I have a brand new 1/2" shank chamfer bit that met a hidden brad nail on it's very first run. It makes very clean cuts, with a nice clean groove in the middle.
Yeah... I have a few of those "one of a kind bits" myself... The worst part is whenever I have to actually explain how and where I got them... to someone who "knows the business"... ;o)
ah yes, I have been here before and saw those sparks myself. but in 2-3 years of my woodworking, I can confidently say it is less than 10 times that this happens. it is topics like these that interests me, so thank you for bringing this up! also the table saw I use is not saw stop and doesn't have that braking system, but they still work just as good as usual
We had a number of times we cut through oak, that had bullets embedded in them. This was kiln dried and sanded stock. It definitely scared the crap out of whoever was running the saw at the time. Our policy was to check the blade and squareness of the arbor to the table top and recalibrated from there if needed. As on a 5hp saw, the amount of shock put on the arbor is known too throw it out of alignment. I also ran a horizontal multi saw mill for this same company, that was used to cut truss webbing. It was also common on that machine that encountering large metal fragments, would knock the blades and arbors out of alignment. (each motor was 10hp 3phase on that unit).
@@incognitotorpedo42 It's common for cold war era surplus to have a steel rod into the bullet. the brass or copper jacket also work hardens on impact, as does the lead in the bullet.
I've also encountered modern nails embedded in hardwoods on a couple of occasions, same scenario, all milled, dried and sanded, ready to use. First time was quite an eye-opener (and nearly an eye-closer -- permanently). Made the pesky, annoying safety goggles a bit more appealing after that! Turns out, some people with an ideological grudge against harvesting any wood (not just 'old growth') will intentionally drive them into trees, apparently regarding the 'murder' of a plant as being of greater consequence than maiming a logger or home DIYer. Some people's kids....
I'd like to thank you for the advice you gave me concerning the sawstop. I am now the proud owner of a sawstop job site saw. It has a lot more than just the safety feature going for it. I had the rigid job site saw and the saw stop is by far a better saw as it should be as it is by far more expensive. I am very glad to have made the switch. I gave my old rigid to a friend. In this video you answered my nagging question since I bought the sawstop. Once again thank you. You da man.
I have two things to add to the discussion - I hit an aluminum Kreg table saw sled on a Sawstop with the blade at a 45 and it DID activate the break, although I've hit plenty of nails without it tripping. I was touching the sled with my bare hands so there ya go. Also, I was cutting a 2x4 on my miter saw with the dust bag attached and it had a nail in it. It sparked and I didn't think anything of it but within ten seconds the bag burned away - luckily the saw was outside. I'd say it's far more likely for sparks directed into a dust bag to catch than on a table saw.
Sparks in the sawdust is really the major concern here. Glad your setup was outside, and you were there to catch what happened. It would really suck to have that stuff smoldering inside your workshop or van at night with nobody around.
I had a nail trigger my sawstop. It was cut almost lengthwise so that it was able to make a connection between the blade and the riving knife. That'll certainly do it.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said. Well other then the SawStop bit. Because I don't have one. Well done video. Thanks for another look at something a lot of us probably wouldn't even think about..
Within the last year I cut a nail with my table saw. The only way I knew was from seeing the sparks. I decided to check in the saw cabinet and glad I did because the sawdust was smoldering. I’m guessing that the draft from the dust collector assisted in keeping the sparks going. The steel used to make brad nails seems to be much softer than construction nail steel. Construction nails are a pretty good grade of steel.
One of the scariest thing that ever happened on a table saw to me was using a 1-2-3 block as a brace on a cross cut sled. Had everything clamped up, hands out of the way, started to push my cut through and was met with a banshee like wail and a *fountain* of sparks. Scared poop out of me. Pulled back the sled, hammed to off button. Took stock of what happened. Put a very clean 1/8" deep cut into the side of a 1-2-3 block, just on the corner. However the blade was is much worse shape. Shattered a couple teeth, though I don't think any of them came all the way off. As this was a nicer blade I did send it back to the manufactured to get it fixed. Never made the mistake twice, and less scary than a kickback, but boy was that a clench worthy moment.
Makes me think that a good woodworking project would be wooden 1-2-3 blocks out of a nice dense hardwood, maybe resin stabilized. A saw-safe 1-2-3 block as it were.
@@lizdonovan6024 it generally is soft enough, people use wood cutting blades to work aluminum all the time but I’d still rather not run my good blades into it. Thats why I was thinking resin stabilized hardwood. Also I think the wood might be heavier, which is nice in a 1-2-3 block.
LMAO, thanks for the info. It really does make me feel better. I recently just threw out this poor, abused chunk of scrap wood. It has been planed, scraped, cut, drilled and you name it. I recently got a pin nailer and after testing decided enough is enough. It has to go in order to maintain my tool integrity. I wont worry so much now and I am on the look out for a good chunk of scrap for further tool testing. Thanks and cheers
I always run a pinpointer across all my wood before it goes near the planer or table saw. This show will show up any metal within the wood no matter how small. It has saved my planer blades on more than one occasion.
@@samueldeter9735 it's a handheld metal detector, the one I use is a garrett Pro pointer. In my opinion its one of the better ones on the market cost is about £100 but there are cheaper ones out there for about £20. Tried the cheaper one before and it worked for about a week then went faulty, drowned it in a river. The one I have is fully waterproof and been using it for about 5 years, first four of them were in muddy fields and rivers doing metal detecting. Plenty of videos of them on RUclips and loads for sale on ebay.
Thanks a lot, this is quite instructive. That comforts me into wearing safety glasses and a sturdy apron when working on the table and miter saws. Another thing I do is keep the usually inferior OEM blade that comes with the saw. If I suspect metal in the material I cut, it's only a couple of minutes to swap my pricier blade for the beater.
I had a scary experience cutting through a hammered in finish nail once. of course, I got the sparks, and I stopped the radial arm to check it out. everything was fine until five minutes later when smoke started pouring out of my shop vac. A spark had traveled down the hose and started the wood dust in the vac smoldering I pushed it outside and carefully removed the Motor and saw about a 10" circle of glowing embers on top of the almost full vac. as I was scooping it out part of it started to flame up Luckly, I got it out before it got any worse but since then i have been very careful about what I cut.
Easy way to take your eyebrows off xD (they can fireball up) its a fair point, dust collection systems can be extremely flammable. Depending on what you're cutting you could also have flammable oils and vapours. You have me considering my own now. I wonder if anyone has good ideas.
Maybe it was just bad luck, but a little over a year ago, I had a full dado stack on my Saw Stop and hit a 23 gauge pin, which activated my brake system. I had to replace my entire dado set and dado brake. Very expensive, but at least the brad was undamaged.
I wonder if the dado stack had enough mass to dissipate the low voltage charge on the blade and thus trigger the sawsafe. I am assuming the dado stack has more mass than a bullet embedded in wood or a framing nail.
I’ve never put a dado stack on our SawStop, but am I remembering correctly in the manual that you need to replace the brake cartridge for a special one designed for the dado when using a dado on the machine?
We had SawStop cabinet saws at my old school. I had to replace two brakes (and blades) because a fastener activated the brake. I think they were #8 screws, I can't remember for sure, but it can definitely happen edit: I was a technician as well as a student, I wasn't the one who activated the brakes lol
I feel you are wrong about the sawstop not getting triggered from cutting 18 gauge pins. As you do, I work daily with my saw stop and have had it drop twice in three years now from metal bits circulating through the brake interface. From conversations with sawstop, what appears to happen is that the pieces of metal from the width of the cut -the width of the carbide cut- will/can make contact between the blade tips and the brake face across the measured gap, causing the mechanism to fail. This is why sawstop began putting the tough plastic "sticker" across that same surface on the brake cartridge to help interfere. I will say that it has only happened with full 1/8" width blades. Has not happened with the 3/32 finish blades yet. I just use the override key if there is a possibility. That's just my two cents. I love and appreciate your channel and all you share with us! Keep it up!
One thing to remember. Metal working lathes and milling machines often use carbide tipped tooling with no problems. Must remember that the tip spreed of the tooling is no were near that of a table saw so that will probably make a big difference. Either way I woulc always check out a brazed carbide tipped saw blade.
It also helps that most nails are close to pure iron, no carbon, and are low hardness. A wood screw or drywall screw is higher carbon and higher hardness, and could be more damaging to a blade.
Great video, thank you for doing these! I think it would be nice to see a video about the economics of managing your blades. You mentioned that after an incident like this, it might be a good idea to mail your blade to a sharpening service, but my mind immediately starts to do the math of shipping cost + sharpening service cost and it doesn't seem to add up against just buying a new blade. I'm less than a novice though so my cost estimates are probably way out of reality.
@@unpairedelectron2886 not many of us are used to buying $120 saw blades so thats why it seems so outrageous to send it out lol but it seems reasonable when it's that cheap compared to the blade
Ive had a couple of different professional sharpening services sharpen MANY blades and bits and I have NEVER been impressed by what I got in return. There is nothing like a new blade with a factory grind. Makita saw blades and jig saw blades are surgically precise and sharp. Freud saw blades are excellent.
I use Amana blades, and they cost me (depending on the blade) $200 to almost $300, so It definitely worth dropping off to be checked and or fixed than to shell out another 250. Im fortunate enough to be close to several blade servicing shops, so there is no shipping charge. ask your local wood working store (like rockler or woodcrafters) where to send them locally.
I'll be honest, I've cut 1mm sheet carbon steel on my table saw and apart from a massive amount of sparks, it cut perfectly well and the blade was absolutely fine. Thinking about it now, I would not do it again and I believe I might have been foolish. Lol.
@@marcknight5678 yep, I could barely see the blade it was so bright. Humans are great. We come up with new and ingenious ways to seriously hurt or kill ourselves. I could have won a Darwin Award. I must try harder.
Where I worked they used to use the table saw to cut 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum jig plate. I've found that cutting aluminum works quite well, and now do it frequently, though I'm usually cutting 1/16" or 1/8" sheet stock. And there are Cermet II (Ceramic and Metallic) blades designed for cutting steel, though I'm not sure if they approve of doing it on the table saw.
@@bobvogel9916, I make all my own jig guides from 3/8" aluminum stock by running it through my cabinet saw. On a whim, since it's required to run a Twin Cutter (two blades a fraction of an inch apart and going in opposite directions), when cutting aluminum, so the aluminum doesn't build up between the two blades, I rubbed caning wax on the cut line. Running a cut, you can actually hear a difference in the noise (less), and can see the wax melting just in front of the cut. Initially, I put on safety glasses, put a face shield over them, and cut it with a 60 tooth, ten inch blade. It made for even smoother cuts than I get from the 7-1/4" blade sold for cutting aluminum.
Glad you brought up sparks. We had an old cabinet Delta TS w/no dust extraction. There have been 2 fires in the saw over the years. If you have extraction it may well be even MORE dangerous because of the flow of high-speed O2 keeping the spark hot. As an example a newbie welder was welding on a 10 story building and figure the sparks would be cold by the time they hit the ground. Nope. The opposite. It wiped out the paint and windshield glass on half a dozen cars below. Painful experience.
I've triggered my sawstop once. When I hit a 16g pin nail. Now if I have any doubt, I turn the brake function off. Thankfully I did this a few days back when I hit a forgotten 3 inch deckscrew, lengthwise. Top to bottom. I figured the saw blade was shot and just powered thru it. Major noise and sparks. No fire. Blade was a cheap one that had been in use for months so I just replaced it.
I used to cut a good deal of 3/4" aluminum jig stock on the table saw - but I used a metal pattern blade. I find insulators, bullets, rocks, fence wire, and all kinds of other stuff in wood. If the wood is harvested on private land and not a plantation, you will likely run into something sooner or later. Rarely does it damage the blade, but it's a good idea to check!
Hey Stumpy..I’ve changed more cartridges on our saw stops than I care to remember…..our policy is to turn of the system when cutting any material that may have a nail in it….nails have activated the system, but the biggest culprit is workers hitting their tape to the blade when the blade is almost at a standstill….we also activated the system when cutting a rubber based material and some plastic laminate material that turned out to not be totally plastic….my advice, turn off the system when you think nails may be present, or when using a material other than wood. Love your show!
Good advice but I think its something that takes experience to really learn. There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the sawstop mechanism and how/why/when its triggered.
I actually started a smolder by a quick grind on my belt sander once. The cover was on, and I neglected to clean the caked sawdust. The air flow enabled the sparks to ignite the dust, and it turned into a belt smoke machine, lol. Wasn’t a big deal, but it definitely unnerved me a bit.
I used to work in a lumber yard, and our insurance policy required us to stop using the saws 30 min before closing, because that's how long it takes to be sure any sparks that made it into the saw dust are extinguished.
We do metal work in our scenic woodshop and our policy is a two hour hot watch after using tools that generate sparks. One hour hot watch is more common. For our operations that means welding, grinding, and anything that generate sparks has to stop two hours before the end of the work day.
I used a nice 1 inch wood owl auger bit when I was running some wire in the attic, not something I do often at all. Drilled right into/through a framing nail, ate the spurs of the bit right off.... soooo depressing, as those auger bits are super nice. I need to buy some cheap spade bits that size for that job
I've cut through a couple 18ga brads with my SawStop in some reclaimed plywood.... thought I saw a quick spark while making the cut and after completion, sure enough ... there it was. The Forrest blade was unfazed.
I worked for the Third largest cabinet company in the United States. I ran several large saws Holtzma and other brands. These saws were capable of cutting 6 - 12’x5’x3/4” sheets at one time. With that said... I almost burned the entire company due to cutting a nail. These two saw blade systems in these saws use massive dust collectors systems in order to operate correctly and must be grounded to prevent static buildup. There was a small nail that had managed to make it into the particle board prior to lamination And happened to get cut buy the trim blade causing a shower of sparks to combust the fine dust in the collection system setting the unit on fire. Do to the location of the dust collection system we didn’t notice until the fire started to spread from the unit itself. Sparks from cutting metal might not kill your saw but CAN kill your dust collectors. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS check your dust collectors when you have a metal strike that cause sparks!
I started a fire in my Jet hybrid saw cutting through an 8d nail. melted the plastic access panel on the back before I discovered it and grabbed the fire extinguisher. no other damage but it took 3 years to find a replacement.
The Dewalt blades I have installed recently on my table saw are designed to be nail proof so no problem if I hit the odd nail. Not that i intend to. On my chop saw (evolution rage3) it was designed to cut anything. I've seen i guy saw a steel I beam with it and it is still cut wood after! (to prove it could do it not for everyday occurance). Useful if you are on the job site and want to cut the odd bit of steel framing etc.
Another thing to note is that an 18G nail can get ripped out of the wood and thrown back at you. Happened to me and had the nail imbed about 1/4" into my hand. Never in a million years did i ever think that an 18G nail would get hooked by the blade instead of being cut.
Was about to add this comment myself. Have had several brad nails turn into little missiles off the blade. Seems to be worse if they're angled, or not well supported by the wood, as in cutting them near the head where the wood is open on one side and more torn up. Safety glasses are a good thing!
They are twice as likely I found to go flying in projects made from MDF or Luan than they are from say partial board plywood or hard woods. I switched to a pin nailer for MDF and Luan after the last time I got hit with flying brad nails.
I use carbide to cut metal almost exclusively. I use hss for custom ground form tools. now I realize this is carbide built for machining metal but if the nail is supported ie in wood it should cut it no problem. Now we cut a lot of framing with skill saws ( not on purpose) but rarely do i see blade damage if the nail is supported. Just my 2¢
Carbide blades are also used in metal cutting chop saws. They’re very hard. Brads might be high carbon steel, but they aren’t hardened and heat treated, so they’re relatively soft. Same with the framing nail.
I managed to put two groves, one in each horizontal arm of my B&D Workmate, blade still cut for a couple of years afterwards, it was a neat light show.
Chip load is important to know. If you are rough cut ripping you will probably bite right into the nail and do more damage, but if you slowly pass thru then the teeth will act like a milling cutter and be less damaging to the saw blade.
Certainly cutting a large nail could damage your saw blade. But consider this. In the last few years steel cutting has changed. I'm a welding fabricator. Previously the most common way to cut steel was an abrasive chop saw. Two years ago i purchased an Evolution carbide tooth chop saw. It has a 14 inch, 66 tooth blade that buzzes through steel like butter
i've set a belt sander on fire before because i failed to clean out the pine dust that accumulated around the pivot wheel guards. granted i was putting an edge on a virgin blade blank. so it was more than just a few sparks.
Those brad nails are much harder than the large construction nail so they have the potential to do more harm than the bigger nail. However, if you push quickly into a 16 penny nail you are likely to get some damage.
I can absolutely say that a nail is enough to trigger a sawstop saw. I was cutting a board with an 8d nail that I didn't see and it triggered. It isolated in the wood and wasn't in contact with my hand or the table. Unfortunately for me it was not just with a regular rip blade but with my dado stack. Arrgh! Either way, if you're cutting anything with a nail in it I'd recommend using the override mode so it doesn't trip.
Lay a screwdriver against the side of the blade (with the saw off). The light will flash on the switch panel and the saw will not turn on because the system is sensing something that will trigger it. The screwdriver is not grounded, but it's mass is enough even if your hand is not holding it.
I'm by no means an electrician and consider sawstop pure magic, but the one time mine did trip is when the magnet on a Kreg push stick contacted the blade. I would have thought the magnet being encased in plastic would have prevented the charge from dissipating but nope, one blade gone and 90 bucks for a new cartridge.
A couple months ago I cut through what I think was an old lag bolt in some lumber from a walnut tree I had milled up. It tripped the sawstop mechanism and buried the blade in the brake. it was quite the thump when it went off, but at least I know it works!
Do you have any experience of the evolution saws (not sure of the name in the USA) they actively market their sawblades as being able to cut through nails (large ones) with ease. Is there a difference in the way the blades are made?
You may have done a video or answer this already . I am torn between the harvey trunnion 4 horse saw or saw stop that doesnt offer a trunnion saw. I no the saw stop is higher dollar but of coarse it is safer . But I really like the harvey saw and can safety optimize it . Would really appreciate your input .
I had a very thin tape measure with a plastic case trip my Sawstop. It ruined both the blade and brake and my shorts since it was the first time.. I no longer use even tape measures near a running saw for that reason.
I have a specific old blade I switch to when I need to cut old barn lumber for reuse. That bad boy has cut literally hundreds of construction grade nails. No problem.
I have to differ with your opinion on a SawStop and hitting a nail. We have two of them at the college I teach woodworking at and we have hit nails small as the 23 gauge and also the little staples that are sometimes in the end of a board and they have tripped the brake multiple times. It has gotten better over the last few years now that they put a Mylar tape on the part of the brake slams into the blade but a brad nail or larger will trip the break. You can send a trip to break back to SawStop and they can tell you what trip to break by Hooking it to a computer. If you have a SawStop and you have to cut through some wood that might have a nail in it, just deactivate the break it’s a fairly easy task.
I have done a lot of remodeling over the years, and I have cut a lot of nails. If you hit a 16, you might chip a tooth. (16 is the one he showed, framing nail) But it's pretty rare, and generally doesn't cause any problems. Checking with a metal detector is good, but honestly people overthink it. It's okay for a tooth to break off, you have 60 more of them. Or 80. It's much worse when you cut it at a steep angle. The biggest mistake I've ever made with my table saw is trying to cut a piece that was too small, MDF, and had it shoot back like a Frisbee and almost break three of my fingers and my thumb. I do a lot of free hand sign on my table saw without the guard, not recommended. But it works, and sometimes you hit strange things Wear goggles. Be safe.
I haven't seen a technical description of how Sawstop works, but I would guess anything shorting the blade to the saw top would do it, not because of mass but because the table is electrically grounded. I always wondered if you have to wear a grounding strap or be touching the table with some part of your body for Sawstop to work, but from your description it sounds like the human body has enough capacitance on its own.
for those rare instances where the small nail supposedly triggered the sawstop, I'd be another possibility is that the wood was wet, pressure treated, for examlpe, giving electricity a path to your body. I was surprised you didn't mention the cut itself. Was cutting that box in that way good practice? Seems like you left a lot of unsupported stuff behind at the end of that cut, plus threw a lot back at you. I assume putting it on a sled would have been better. Great video.
I appreciate your concern. Here is my assessment of this particular cut…. What looks like a kickback at 0:21 was merely the offcut being brushed back by the sides of the teeth with only enough momentum to fall off the edge of the saw top onto the floor.... When you see the remaining part move at the end of the cut you must remember that this is after it had cleared the blade and only the riving knife remained next to it.... I had a riving knife installed and used a pusher to keep my hands fully clear of the blade and was in no danger at any time during this particular cut…. HOWEVER, it is generally a good idea to avoid trapping an offcut beneath the workpiece, making this cut similar to cutting the cheek from a tenon (which I would not do this way). There is a small chance that the loose offcut may kick back with greater force than was experienced here and for that reason this cut should be made differently.
Armor of ships and tanks is often sloped because it is effectively thicker when an armor piercing shell hits it at an angle. Measure a cross section at an angle.
I have cut nails closer to the size of framing nails and have never noticed significant damage to the table saw blade. I expect that every one I cut nudged the blade a little closer to the scrap bin though. Thin kerf blades like used on cordless circular saws are another thing. Just a couple of framing or roofing nails total them. A standard circular saw, even with the cheapest promo carbide blade from the big box store will survive many a nail. Of course, if you are doing something like roofing, if there are only a couple of missing teeth, you just keep going until it gets too slow or smoky.
Fire danger from cutting metal is real. I cut through a screw and the sparks ignited the pile of sawdust that had accumulated in my cabinet saw. Fortunately I caught this right away. I was able to put out the fire that was contained in the cabinet. Thank God I saw it right away and kept the shop from going up in flames.
Good discussion regarding cutting nails. To me the scarier issue is the loose piece trapped between the fence and the blade (also sans splitter.) Perhaps an L fence or cutting from the other side might have been a better choice? Not trying to be safety police, but my dad got a trip to the ER and stitches with a smaller scaled version of that.
What do you mean "sans splitter?" There was a riving knife installed on the saw. I appreciate your concern. Here is my assessment of this particular cut…. What looks like a kickback at 0:21 was merely the offcut being brushed back by the sides of the teeth with only enough momentum to fall off the edge of the saw top onto the floor.... When you see the remaining part move at the end of the cut you must remember that this is after it had cleared the blade and only the riving knife remained next to it.... I had a riving knife installed and used a pusher to keep my hands fully clear of the blade and was in no danger at any time during this particular cut…. HOWEVER, it is generally a good idea to avoid trapping an offcut beneath the workpiece, making this cut similar to cutting the cheek from a tenon (which I would not do this way). There is a small chance that the loose offcut may kick back with greater force than was experienced here and for that reason this cut should be made differently.
Back (many years ago) when I first started woodworking, an 18 gauge brad did a number on my steel jointer knives. Lesson learned. I now own a metal detector.
I made a push block the other day and stupidly attached the bottom piece with brad nails. Zipped right through them on the second cut 🤦 No blade damage as far I can tell but it did spark quite a bit.
Hi James After 35 years as a sawdoctor / saw sharpener I can assure you that the carbide tip will fracture before the softer solder unless the saw is of poor quality and condition
I once hit a piece of some type of igneous gravel with my bandsaw, & that created a lot of sparks too (and really badly wrecked the blade since I did think it was just a small nail or BB & pushed on through). Still got no idea how a piece of gravel ended up embedded several inches into a tree trunk; my thinking is that it embedded itself early & was absorbed as the tree grew around it. Something to think about if a piece of urban/industrial tree does something weird to your tools.
Several years ago I was slabbing an urban log on my bandsaw mill and got surprised with a bunch of sparks. The tree had been near a gravel-covered flat roof and over the years some of the gravel had fallen into a crotch in the tree, gradually becoming embedded in the wood as the tree grew. Lost a lot of teeth on that blade.
@@matthewsmith8573 This makes me want to embed things in trees for future woodworkers to find. Nice things though, like.. different types of wood maybe.
Hitting nails is a pretty regular occurrence in construction carpentry. Each framing nail has a small but noticeable effect on your typical carbide blade. Screws are noticeably worse. If I know the blade is going to be trash before we get to the finish stage anyway, I hardly even try to avoid it, though. You can repurpose a lot of cutoffs and other "dirty" wood before totally killing a cheap carbide blade.
I cut through so many more nails, which isn't many with my 12" compound miter saw and it laughs it off. Sawdust though is creepy because a pile can smolder until it all turns black. Not allowing sawdust to accumulate is always smart.
I cut through a nail with my compound miter saw and bent the fence by about 1/64 of an inch. However that was from the end to the center of it so there was no adjusting to fix it and sadly I could no longer get a replacement either.
Mine triggered when I was cutting a bevel and I forgot to move my miter fence over to clear the blade. It ruined the blade and brake but didn't leave a scratch on the aluminum miter fence.
Saw blade is generally the only thing you’ll likely need to replace, if your cutting a whole bunch of ferrous metals cleaning out the saw is a good idea to remove the swarf before rusting. 🤷🏻♂️ as a carpenter working on houses cutting through framing nails, you might chip a tooth or loose they don’t go whipping around the room as you would expect 😅 same with router bits, snapped one while using it inappropriately routing brass broke at full tilt and it just dropped to the ground 🤷🏻♂️. When a blade loses a tooth it’s generally in contact and under load and breaks while almost stationary. The blades spinning but the energy is Dissipated into the material.
Just as a bit of information carbide blades on a skilsaw will run through 16p all day. Obviously not ideal but talk to any carpenter doing demolition and he's probably cutting through multiple layers or shingles and nails. Carbide is the top of the food chain
Ridge Carbide, my favorite blades and sharpening service. Is it possible if the moisture density is high enough that the wood itself could conduct. So even if you are not directly touching the nail the wood might provide a path to your body and cause the brake in a SawStop saw to fire?
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The Saw Stop system works by conductivity. When there is no ground no electricity flows so the system does not trigger. Same concept as lightening striking an airliner in the air not grounded no damage. Had the workpiece been damp or the metal touching a ground (the saw body or frame) it would have definitely triggered. You are right to have the blade inspected after an event like that. Keep up the good work.
@@stevemcentyre1570 - The charge does not need a path to the ground. If it did we would have to work barefoot on dirt floors.
@adelaide- I literally just said that...
@@StumpyNubs You did not understand my comment. Ground is relative and you would be completing a circuit for current to flow (we are talking millivolts and milliamps or even less because the electronics can detect very slight changes.) If you wanted to get shocked (perish the thought) you would need some significant voltage source to overcome your internal resistance. Also note that you have a 3 prong plug so yes the saw frame IS grounded. You can't break OHM's law. ;)
I appreciate your attention to spreading safety first.
FWIW, one of the jobs I used to do on an old apartment building we maintained was to use a router to cut mortises in old window frames. I used a magnet to try to find the nails that were in the frame but I often didn't get every nail out. Hitting even a single nail was enough to wreck the router bit. After I switched to a carbide bit the router just cut through small nails like they weren't there and it survived cutting though an occasional medium gauge nail that was used to hold the window in frame in place. ETA: the brand of router bits I switched to was Whiteside.
We have ALL hit a nail or two in our days in the shop. Your advice was spot on, check the blade to make sure it was not messed up in any way then go about your day. We all worry about getting "hit me in the pretty face" at one point or another. That was a classic. Have an awesome rest of your day and week.
As a handyman I've repaired more than my share of roofs, and sometimes the ply is rotten so I have to replace a section. I always snap a chalk line on one side of the row of nail heads in the truss when I go to cut out the rotten part, but it never fails some are angled across my line, so I've cut through countless framing nails with a 7-1/4" circular saw. I used to check the teeth on the blade every time it happened but damage was such a rarity that it quickly ceased being worth the effort.
@@Dwayne_Bearup To be fair, a circular saw isn't pointed at your face...
@@technoman9000 S'truth, and I always make sure none of my workers are in the potential line of fire, just in case.
@@Dwayne_Bearup I'd think skill-saw blades might be built to better withstand accidental encounters with fasteners. A demolition blade definitely wouldn't care.
Thanks for the very lucid explanation of how the SawStop mechanism works! I have always wondered about that, but never felt motivated to figure it out. Nice to have the explanation "served up on a plate"
I saw sawdust explode in a high school shop class. No one was seriously hurt, but scared the crap out us. Gave me a lifelong lesson on the danger of sawdust whenever a spark is around.
I think technically it conflagrates but yeah, sawdust is an oft overlooked hazard, also capable of autoignition depending on certain factors, certain woods, certain oils get near it, so on, and can cause electrical fires in other circumstances. Try to keep the amount manageable and having a small extinguisher or even a bucket of sand is not a terrible idea for your workshop.
Flour too. Bakeries and storage silos have really good fire suppression systems.
@@asailijhijrwatch what other employees would do to a fellow employee smoking around a grain silo. . . .
My moms garage once caught fire from just the heating element of the electric dryer because of dust accumulation
There was a stunt that members of Dabney House did from time to time which involved making huge fireballs that mushroomed their way up into the air a hundred feet or so. On the order of 3 cubic ft of sawdust was involved. And no, I'm not going to tell you how to do it. At least nobody was surprised when it happened (with the possible exception of the good citizens of San Marino).
It's a miracle that any of us survived Caltech in the 1980s; a surprisingly wild place back then.
James, I feel you have the best channel on RUclips. I am trying to watch as many of your videos as I can. Keep up the great work!
For all those of you that find themselves using brads and pin nails a lot, and know that you will be sawing through them: there is a U.S. company that manufactures composite nails and brads (i.e. made from fiber reinforced resin). These are designed to be ground and sawn, and they cannot rust. Maybe worth a consideration...
Boatbuilders use them. Raptor fasteners.
Can you provide a manufacturer+model? Much appreciated!
@@richd8537 I just got a notification that their website has computer viruses on it.
Another one is called lignolock by a company called beck
Interesting.
Thank you for the video. Great to hear from someone dealing with these saws professionally
Always with the timely advice, James!! It's downright uncanny! These are exactly some of the questions I was pondering while thinking about an upcoming project with a complicated glue-up, and whether to use brad nails in certain locations as temporary clamps, against the likelihood of breaking down the project later and re-using the wood, which re-purposing may involve cutting a brad or two. While not exactly planning on cutting through them, it was more a question of greater or lesser probability, and I didn't want to waste the wood if it worked out that way. Thank you, sir!
I had no idea! I've always been fearful of encountering a nail or brad when reclaiming old scrap lumber. This was very helpful. Thanks!
I have a brand new 1/2" shank chamfer bit that met a hidden brad nail on it's very first run. It makes very clean cuts, with a nice clean groove in the middle.
Yeah... I have a few of those "one of a kind bits" myself... The worst part is whenever I have to actually explain how and where I got them... to someone who "knows the business"... ;o)
ah yes, I have been here before and saw those sparks myself. but in 2-3 years of my woodworking, I can confidently say it is less than 10 times that this happens.
it is topics like these that interests me, so thank you for bringing this up!
also the table saw I use is not saw stop and doesn't have that braking system, but they still work just as good as usual
We had a number of times we cut through oak, that had bullets embedded in them. This was kiln dried and sanded stock. It definitely scared the crap out of whoever was running the saw at the time. Our policy was to check the blade and squareness of the arbor to the table top and recalibrated from there if needed. As on a 5hp saw, the amount of shock put on the arbor is known too throw it out of alignment. I also ran a horizontal multi saw mill for this same company, that was used to cut truss webbing. It was also common on that machine that encountering large metal fragments, would knock the blades and arbors out of alignment. (each motor was 10hp 3phase on that unit).
What were these bullets made of? Steel? Seems like you could cut lead all day long...
@@incognitotorpedo42 brass and lead, the lead was a joke, but the jacket really make a thunk and would shock the saws something impressive.
@@incognitotorpedo42 It's common for cold war era surplus to have a steel rod into the bullet. the brass or copper jacket also work hardens on impact, as does the lead in the bullet.
I've also encountered modern nails embedded in hardwoods on a couple of occasions, same scenario, all milled, dried and sanded, ready to use. First time was quite an eye-opener (and nearly an eye-closer -- permanently). Made the pesky, annoying safety goggles a bit more appealing after that! Turns out, some people with an ideological grudge against harvesting any wood (not just 'old growth') will intentionally drive them into trees, apparently regarding the 'murder' of a plant as being of greater consequence than maiming a logger or home DIYer. Some people's kids....
I'd like to thank you for the advice you gave me concerning the sawstop. I am now the proud owner of a sawstop job site saw.
It has a lot more than just the safety feature going for it. I had the rigid job site saw and the saw stop is by far a better saw as it should be as it is by far more expensive. I am very glad to have made the switch. I gave my old rigid to a friend. In this video you answered my nagging question since I bought the sawstop. Once again thank you. You da man.
I have two things to add to the discussion - I hit an aluminum Kreg table saw sled on a Sawstop with the blade at a 45 and it DID activate the break, although I've hit plenty of nails without it tripping. I was touching the sled with my bare hands so there ya go. Also, I was cutting a 2x4 on my miter saw with the dust bag attached and it had a nail in it. It sparked and I didn't think anything of it but within ten seconds the bag burned away - luckily the saw was outside. I'd say it's far more likely for sparks directed into a dust bag to catch than on a table saw.
An aluminum sled is a lot larger than an nail, so yes, it will set it off.
Sparks in the sawdust is really the major concern here. Glad your setup was outside, and you were there to catch what happened. It would really suck to have that stuff smoldering inside your workshop or van at night with nobody around.
I had a nail trigger my sawstop. It was cut almost lengthwise so that it was able to make a connection between the blade and the riving knife. That'll certainly do it.
Couldn't agree more with everything you said. Well other then the SawStop bit. Because I don't have one. Well done video. Thanks for another look at something a lot of us probably wouldn't even think about..
Within the last year I cut a nail with my table saw. The only way I knew was from seeing the sparks. I decided to check in the saw cabinet and glad I did because the sawdust was smoldering. I’m guessing that the draft from the dust collector assisted in keeping the sparks going.
The steel used to make brad nails seems to be much softer than construction nail steel. Construction nails are a pretty good grade of steel.
One of the scariest thing that ever happened on a table saw to me was using a 1-2-3 block as a brace on a cross cut sled. Had everything clamped up, hands out of the way, started to push my cut through and was met with a banshee like wail and a *fountain* of sparks. Scared poop out of me. Pulled back the sled, hammed to off button. Took stock of what happened. Put a very clean 1/8" deep cut into the side of a 1-2-3 block, just on the corner. However the blade was is much worse shape. Shattered a couple teeth, though I don't think any of them came all the way off. As this was a nicer blade I did send it back to the manufactured to get it fixed. Never made the mistake twice, and less scary than a kickback, but boy was that a clench worthy moment.
Makes me think that a good woodworking project would be wooden 1-2-3 blocks out of a nice dense hardwood, maybe resin stabilized. A saw-safe 1-2-3 block as it were.
@@Vikingwerk Good idea. I wonder if aluminum would be more stable and soft enough to avoid blade damage
@@lizdonovan6024 it generally is soft enough, people use wood cutting blades to work aluminum all the time but I’d still rather not run my good blades into it. Thats why I was thinking resin stabilized hardwood. Also I think the wood might be heavier, which is nice in a 1-2-3 block.
LMAO, thanks for the info. It really does make me feel better. I recently just threw out this poor, abused chunk of scrap wood. It has been planed, scraped, cut, drilled and you name it. I recently got a pin nailer and after testing decided enough is enough. It has to go in order to maintain my tool integrity. I wont worry so much now and I am on the look out for a good chunk of scrap for further tool testing. Thanks and cheers
I always run a pinpointer across all my wood before it goes near the planer or table saw. This show will show up any metal within the wood no matter how small. It has saved my planer blades on more than one occasion.
What is a pin pointer?
@@samueldeter9735 it's a handheld metal detector, the one I use is a garrett Pro pointer. In my opinion its one of the better ones on the market cost is about £100 but there are cheaper ones out there for about £20. Tried the cheaper one before and it worked for about a week then went faulty, drowned it in a river. The one I have is fully waterproof and been using it for about 5 years, first four of them were in muddy fields and rivers doing metal detecting. Plenty of videos of them on RUclips and loads for sale on ebay.
@@derekrobertson1548 sweet, thank you!
Thanks a lot, this is quite instructive. That comforts me into wearing safety glasses and a sturdy apron when working on the table and miter saws. Another thing I do is keep the usually inferior OEM blade that comes with the saw. If I suspect metal in the material I cut, it's only a couple of minutes to swap my pricier blade for the beater.
I had a scary experience cutting through a hammered in finish nail once. of course, I got the sparks, and I stopped the radial arm to check it out. everything was fine until five minutes later when smoke started pouring out of my shop vac. A spark had traveled down the hose and started the wood dust in the vac smoldering I pushed it outside and carefully removed the Motor and saw about a 10" circle of glowing embers on top of the almost full vac. as I was scooping it out part of it started to flame up Luckly, I got it out before it got any worse but since then i have been very careful about what I cut.
Easy way to take your eyebrows off xD (they can fireball up) its a fair point, dust collection systems can be extremely flammable. Depending on what you're cutting you could also have flammable oils and vapours. You have me considering my own now. I wonder if anyone has good ideas.
Maybe it was just bad luck, but a little over a year ago, I had a full dado stack on my Saw Stop and hit a 23 gauge pin, which activated my brake system. I had to replace my entire dado set and dado brake. Very expensive, but at least the brad was undamaged.
I know this sounds like a joke to newbies like me, but if it were a non-brad object, perhaps human-shaped, I would be ecstatic.
I wonder if the dado stack had enough mass to dissipate the low voltage charge on the blade and thus trigger the sawsafe. I am assuming the dado stack has more mass than a bullet embedded in wood or a framing nail.
I’ve never put a dado stack on our SawStop, but am I remembering correctly in the manual that you need to replace the brake cartridge for a special one designed for the dado when using a dado on the machine?
@@calstatelaalproductions2358 Correct.
@@calstatelaalproductions2358 he said his dado brake too
Congrats for the
700K subs, James... Awesome!
I used to work in a shipyard in Florida. With the natural humidity a sheet of plywood having a staple at the end would cause our saw break to engage.
We had SawStop cabinet saws at my old school. I had to replace two brakes (and blades) because a fastener activated the brake. I think they were #8 screws, I can't remember for sure, but it can definitely happen
edit: I was a technician as well as a student, I wasn't the one who activated the brakes lol
if your finger was on the screw or the screw was touching the fence or table it will happen, as then the voltage has someplace to go
I feel you are wrong about the sawstop not getting triggered from cutting 18 gauge pins.
As you do, I work daily with my saw stop and have had it drop twice in three years now from metal bits circulating through the brake interface.
From conversations with sawstop, what appears to happen is that the pieces of metal from the width of the cut -the width of the carbide cut- will/can make contact between the blade tips and the brake face across the measured gap, causing the mechanism to fail.
This is why sawstop began putting the tough plastic "sticker" across that same surface on the brake cartridge to help interfere.
I will say that it has only happened with full 1/8" width blades. Has not happened with the 3/32 finish blades yet. I just use the override key if there is a possibility. That's just my two cents.
I love and appreciate your channel and all you share with us! Keep it up!
One thing to remember. Metal working lathes and milling machines often use carbide tipped tooling with no problems. Must remember that the tip spreed of the tooling is no were near that of a table saw so that will probably make a big difference. Either way I woulc always check out a brazed carbide tipped saw blade.
It also helps that most nails are close to pure iron, no carbon, and are low hardness. A wood screw or drywall screw is higher carbon and higher hardness, and could be more damaging to a blade.
Great video, thank you for doing these!
I think it would be nice to see a video about the economics of managing your blades. You mentioned that after an incident like this, it might be a good idea to mail your blade to a sharpening service, but my mind immediately starts to do the math of shipping cost + sharpening service cost and it doesn't seem to add up against just buying a new blade. I'm less than a novice though so my cost estimates are probably way out of reality.
Ridge carbide saw blade: $120
Ridge carbide saw sharpening service: $20
Shipping: $10
Makes total sense to get it checked out.
@@unpairedelectron2886 not many of us are used to buying $120 saw blades so thats why it seems so outrageous to send it out lol but it seems reasonable when it's that cheap compared to the blade
If your blade costs less than $50, then you are unlikely to send it out. if it costs more than $50, it's definitely worth it.
Ive had a couple of different professional sharpening services sharpen MANY blades and bits and I have NEVER been impressed by what I got in return. There is nothing like a new blade with a factory grind. Makita saw blades and jig saw blades are surgically precise and sharp. Freud saw blades are excellent.
I use Amana blades, and they cost me (depending on the blade) $200 to almost $300, so It definitely worth dropping off to be checked and or fixed than to shell out another 250. Im fortunate enough to be close to several blade servicing shops, so there is no shipping charge. ask your local wood working store (like rockler or woodcrafters) where to send them locally.
I'll be honest, I've cut 1mm sheet carbon steel on my table saw and apart from a massive amount of sparks, it cut perfectly well and the blade was absolutely fine. Thinking about it now, I would not do it again and I believe I might have been foolish. Lol.
What? That made sparks?
@@marcknight5678 yep, I could barely see the blade it was so bright. Humans are great. We come up with new and ingenious ways to seriously hurt or kill ourselves. I could have won a Darwin Award. I must try harder.
Where I worked they used to use the table saw to cut 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum jig plate. I've found that cutting aluminum works quite well, and now do it frequently, though I'm usually cutting 1/16" or 1/8" sheet stock. And there are Cermet II (Ceramic and Metallic) blades designed for cutting steel, though I'm not sure if they approve of doing it on the table saw.
@@bobvogel9916, I make all my own jig guides from 3/8" aluminum stock by running it through my cabinet saw.
On a whim, since it's required to run a Twin Cutter (two blades a fraction of an inch apart and going in opposite directions), when cutting aluminum, so the aluminum doesn't build up between the two blades, I rubbed caning wax on the cut line. Running a cut, you can actually hear a difference in the noise (less), and can see the wax melting just in front of the cut.
Initially, I put on safety glasses, put a face shield over them, and cut it with a 60 tooth, ten inch blade. It made for even smoother cuts than I get from the 7-1/4" blade sold for cutting aluminum.
Carbide cuts mild steel, just don't feed it too fast. There is a reason metal lathes have water based lubricant sprays😀
I had no idea that's how a Saw Stop worked. Very cool!
The only time I triggered my saw stop blade brake was when I was cutting really wet wood and I didn't think ahead to put it into by-pass mode.
Glad you brought up sparks. We had an old cabinet Delta TS w/no dust extraction. There have been 2 fires in the saw over the years.
If you have extraction it may well be even MORE dangerous because of the flow of high-speed O2 keeping the spark hot. As an example a newbie welder was welding on a 10 story building and figure the sparks would be cold by the time they hit the ground. Nope. The opposite. It wiped out the paint and windshield glass on half a dozen cars below. Painful experience.
Very useful information thank you for sharing this with us today from Henrico County Virginia
Nailed that one Stumpy 🎯
Thanks James for taking the time to share this information with us. Stay safe and keep up the good videos. Fred.
I've triggered my sawstop once. When I hit a 16g pin nail. Now if I have any doubt, I turn the brake function off. Thankfully I did this a few days back when I hit a forgotten 3 inch deckscrew, lengthwise. Top to bottom. I figured the saw blade was shot and just powered thru it. Major noise and sparks. No fire. Blade was a cheap one that had been in use for months so I just replaced it.
I used to cut a good deal of 3/4" aluminum jig stock on the table saw - but I used a metal pattern blade. I find insulators, bullets, rocks, fence wire, and all kinds of other stuff in wood. If the wood is harvested on private land and not a plantation, you will likely run into something sooner or later. Rarely does it damage the blade, but it's a good idea to check!
Woot woot Red Wings !!!! I forgot what you were talking about when I saw the Wings.
Hey Stumpy..I’ve changed more cartridges on our saw stops than I care to remember…..our policy is to turn of the system when cutting any material that may have a nail in it….nails have activated the system, but the biggest culprit is workers hitting their tape to the blade when the blade is almost at a standstill….we also activated the system when cutting a rubber based material and some plastic laminate material that turned out to not be totally plastic….my advice, turn off the system when you think nails may be present, or when using a material other than wood.
Love your show!
Good advice but I think its something that takes experience to really learn. There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the sawstop mechanism and how/why/when its triggered.
Some plastics will build up a static charge while cutting and may result in the sawstop system being triggered.
Thank you, Mr. Nubs!
I actually started a smolder by a quick grind on my belt sander once.
The cover was on, and I neglected to clean the caked sawdust. The air flow enabled the sparks to ignite the dust, and it turned into a belt smoke machine, lol.
Wasn’t a big deal, but it definitely unnerved me a bit.
I used to work in a lumber yard, and our insurance policy required us to stop using the saws 30 min before closing, because that's how long it takes to be sure any sparks that made it into the saw dust are extinguished.
We do metal work in our scenic woodshop and our policy is a two hour hot watch after using tools that generate sparks. One hour hot watch is more common. For our operations that means welding, grinding, and anything that generate sparks has to stop two hours before the end of the work day.
I used a nice 1 inch wood owl auger bit when I was running some wire in the attic, not something I do often at all. Drilled right into/through a framing nail, ate the spurs of the bit right off.... soooo depressing, as those auger bits are super nice.
I need to buy some cheap spade bits that size for that job
I've cut through a couple 18ga brads with my SawStop in some reclaimed plywood.... thought I saw a quick spark while making the cut and after completion, sure enough ... there it was. The Forrest blade was unfazed.
Hi James, Brilliant advice and for someone who doesn't use his table saw very often advice I will definitely remember.
Take care James.
Cheers, Huw
Good explanation, I've cut an 18 guage nail and it didn't trigger much to my surprise.
I worked for the Third largest cabinet company in the United States. I ran several large saws Holtzma and other brands. These saws were capable of cutting 6 - 12’x5’x3/4” sheets at one time. With that said... I almost burned the entire company due to cutting a nail. These two saw blade systems in these saws use massive dust collectors systems in order to operate correctly and must be grounded to prevent static buildup. There was a small nail that had managed to make it into the particle board prior to lamination And happened to get cut buy the trim blade causing a shower of sparks to combust the fine dust in the collection system setting the unit on fire. Do to the location of the dust collection system we didn’t notice until the fire started to spread from the unit itself.
Sparks from cutting metal might not kill your saw but CAN kill your dust collectors. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS check your dust collectors when you have a metal strike that cause sparks!
I started a fire in my Jet hybrid saw cutting through an 8d nail. melted the plastic access panel on the back before I discovered it and grabbed the fire extinguisher. no other damage but it took 3 years to find a replacement.
GOOD VIDEO!! THANK YOU STUMPY!!
The Dewalt blades I have installed recently on my table saw are designed to be nail proof so no problem if I hit the odd nail. Not that i intend to. On my chop saw (evolution rage3) it was designed to cut anything. I've seen i guy saw a steel I beam with it and it is still cut wood after! (to prove it could do it not for everyday occurance). Useful if you are on the job site and want to cut the odd bit of steel framing etc.
Another thing to note is that an 18G nail can get ripped out of the wood and thrown back at you. Happened to me and had the nail imbed about 1/4" into my hand. Never in a million years did i ever think that an 18G nail would get hooked by the blade instead of being cut.
Was about to add this comment myself. Have had several brad nails turn into little missiles off the blade. Seems to be worse if they're angled, or not well supported by the wood, as in cutting them near the head where the wood is open on one side and more torn up. Safety glasses are a good thing!
They are twice as likely I found to go flying in projects made from MDF or Luan than they are from say partial board plywood or hard woods. I switched to a pin nailer for MDF and Luan after the last time I got hit with flying brad nails.
Yeah a nail did wonders for my DeWalt planer knives and platform
Pretty interesting indeed! Thanks, James! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I use carbide to cut metal almost exclusively. I use hss for custom ground form tools. now I realize this is carbide built for machining metal but if the nail is supported ie in wood it should cut it no problem. Now we cut a lot of framing with skill saws ( not on purpose) but rarely do i see blade damage if the nail is supported. Just my 2¢
Carbide blades are also used in metal cutting chop saws. They’re very hard. Brads might be high carbon steel, but they aren’t hardened and heat treated, so they’re relatively soft. Same with the framing nail.
Metal cutting chop saws run at about a third of the speed of a table saw.
I managed to put two groves, one in each horizontal arm of my B&D Workmate, blade still cut for a couple of years afterwards, it was a neat light show.
Great info video. Like the advice about what to do with a good blade if you accidentally cut a large nail. Thank you.
Chip load is important to know. If you are rough cut ripping you will probably bite right into the nail and do more damage, but if you slowly pass thru then the teeth will act like a milling cutter and be less damaging to the saw blade.
I agree
Certainly cutting a large nail could damage your saw blade. But consider this. In the last few years steel cutting has changed. I'm a welding fabricator. Previously the most common way to cut steel was an abrasive chop saw.
Two years ago i purchased an Evolution carbide tooth chop saw.
It has a 14 inch, 66 tooth blade that buzzes through steel like butter
Metal cutting chop saws run at about a third of the speed of a table saw.
i've set a belt sander on fire before because i failed to clean out the pine dust that accumulated around the pivot wheel guards. granted i was putting an edge on a virgin blade blank. so it was more than just a few sparks.
Those brad nails are much harder than the large construction nail so they have the potential to do more harm than the bigger nail. However, if you push quickly into a 16 penny nail you are likely to get some damage.
I can absolutely say that a nail is enough to trigger a sawstop saw. I was cutting a board with an 8d nail that I didn't see and it triggered. It isolated in the wood and wasn't in contact with my hand or the table. Unfortunately for me it was not just with a regular rip blade but with my dado stack. Arrgh! Either way, if you're cutting anything with a nail in it I'd recommend using the override mode so it doesn't trip.
It’s not increased mass that trigger a SawStop but the fact that you ground the blade when you tough it changing the electrical load in the system.
Lay a screwdriver against the side of the blade (with the saw off). The light will flash on the switch panel and the saw will not turn on because the system is sensing something that will trigger it. The screwdriver is not grounded, but it's mass is enough even if your hand is not holding it.
I am looking to upgrade the rip fence on my craftsman cabinet table saw from the 1940's i was wondering if you had any brand suggestions ?
I'm by no means an electrician and consider sawstop pure magic, but the one time mine did trip is when the magnet on a Kreg push stick contacted the blade. I would have thought the magnet being encased in plastic would have prevented the charge from dissipating but nope, one blade gone and 90 bucks for a new cartridge.
Inconceivable!!!!
A couple months ago I cut through what I think was an old lag bolt in some lumber from a walnut tree I had milled up. It tripped the sawstop mechanism and buried the blade in the brake. it was quite the thump when it went off, but at least I know it works!
Do you have any experience of the evolution saws (not sure of the name in the USA) they actively market their sawblades as being able to cut through nails (large ones) with ease. Is there a difference in the way the blades are made?
I have a perfectly ripped in half 5/32” x 2” wood screw sticking on a magnet in my shop as a reminder to check old lumber before repurposing
You may have done a video or answer this already . I am torn between the harvey trunnion 4 horse saw or saw stop that doesnt offer a trunnion saw. I no the saw stop is higher dollar but of coarse it is safer . But I really like the harvey saw and can safety optimize it . Would really appreciate your input .
Both are great saws. You have to decide if you need the SawStop feature, and if you are willing to spend the extra amount for it.
I had a very thin tape measure with a plastic case trip my Sawstop. It ruined both the blade and brake and my shorts since it was the first time.. I no longer use even tape measures near a running saw for that reason.
I have a specific old blade I switch to when I need to cut old barn lumber for reuse. That bad boy has cut literally hundreds of construction grade nails. No problem.
I have to differ with your opinion on a SawStop and hitting a nail. We have two of them at the college I teach woodworking at and we have hit nails small as the 23 gauge and also the little staples that are sometimes in the end of a board and they have tripped the brake multiple times. It has gotten better over the last few years now that they put a Mylar tape on the part of the brake slams into the blade but a brad nail or larger will trip the break. You can send a trip to break back to SawStop and they can tell you what trip to break by Hooking it to a computer. If you have a SawStop and you have to cut through some wood that might have a nail in it, just deactivate the break it’s a fairly easy task.
I have done a lot of remodeling over the years, and I have cut a lot of nails. If you hit a 16, you might chip a tooth. (16 is the one he showed, framing nail) But it's pretty rare, and generally doesn't cause any problems. Checking with a metal detector is good, but honestly people overthink it. It's okay for a tooth to break off, you have 60 more of them. Or 80.
It's much worse when you cut it at a steep angle.
The biggest mistake I've ever made with my table saw is trying to cut a piece that was too small, MDF, and had it shoot back like a Frisbee and almost break three of my fingers and my thumb.
I do a lot of free hand sign on my table saw without the guard, not recommended. But it works, and sometimes you hit strange things
Wear goggles. Be safe.
I haven't seen a technical description of how Sawstop works, but I would guess anything shorting the blade to the saw top would do it, not because of mass but because the table is electrically grounded. I always wondered if you have to wear a grounding strap or be touching the table with some part of your body for Sawstop to work, but from your description it sounds like the human body has enough capacitance on its own.
for those rare instances where the small nail supposedly triggered the sawstop, I'd be another possibility is that the wood was wet, pressure treated, for examlpe, giving electricity a path to your body.
I was surprised you didn't mention the cut itself. Was cutting that box in that way good practice? Seems like you left a lot of unsupported stuff behind at the end of that cut, plus threw a lot back at you. I assume putting it on a sled would have been better.
Great video.
I appreciate your concern. Here is my assessment of this particular cut…. What looks like a kickback at 0:21 was merely the offcut being brushed back by the sides of the teeth with only enough momentum to fall off the edge of the saw top onto the floor.... When you see the remaining part move at the end of the cut you must remember that this is after it had cleared the blade and only the riving knife remained next to it.... I had a riving knife installed and used a pusher to keep my hands fully clear of the blade and was in no danger at any time during this particular cut…. HOWEVER, it is generally a good idea to avoid trapping an offcut beneath the workpiece, making this cut similar to cutting the cheek from a tenon (which I would not do this way). There is a small chance that the loose offcut may kick back with greater force than was experienced here and for that reason this cut should be made differently.
'Smoldering in the Sawdust' is the title of my upcoming trashy romance novel about a rugged woodworker set in the 1800s.
Nice sponsor segue, btw :)
Armor of ships and tanks is often sloped because it is effectively thicker when an armor piercing shell hits it at an angle. Measure a cross section at an angle.
I have cut nails closer to the size of framing nails and have never noticed significant damage to the table saw blade. I expect that every one I cut nudged the blade a little closer to the scrap bin though. Thin kerf blades like used on cordless circular saws are another thing. Just a couple of framing or roofing nails total them. A standard circular saw, even with the cheapest promo carbide blade from the big box store will survive many a nail. Of course, if you are doing something like roofing, if there are only a couple of missing teeth, you just keep going until it gets too slow or smoky.
your vids are entrancing.
Fire danger from cutting metal is real. I cut through a screw and the sparks ignited the pile of sawdust that had accumulated in my cabinet saw. Fortunately I caught this right away. I was able to put out the fire that was contained in the cabinet. Thank God I saw it right away and kept the shop from going up in flames.
Good discussion regarding cutting nails. To me the scarier issue is the loose piece trapped between the fence and the blade (also sans splitter.) Perhaps an L fence or cutting from the other side might have been a better choice? Not trying to be safety police, but my dad got a trip to the ER and stitches with a smaller scaled version of that.
What do you mean "sans splitter?" There was a riving knife installed on the saw.
I appreciate your concern. Here is my assessment of this particular cut…. What looks like a kickback at 0:21 was merely the offcut being brushed back by the sides of the teeth with only enough momentum to fall off the edge of the saw top onto the floor.... When you see the remaining part move at the end of the cut you must remember that this is after it had cleared the blade and only the riving knife remained next to it.... I had a riving knife installed and used a pusher to keep my hands fully clear of the blade and was in no danger at any time during this particular cut…. HOWEVER, it is generally a good idea to avoid trapping an offcut beneath the workpiece, making this cut similar to cutting the cheek from a tenon (which I would not do this way). There is a small chance that the loose offcut may kick back with greater force than was experienced here and for that reason this cut should be made differently.
@@StumpyNubs my bad, I mistook the shiny riving knife for a moving blade. Always great info, appreciate what you share.
Back (many years ago) when I first started woodworking, an 18 gauge brad did a number on my steel jointer knives. Lesson learned. I now own a metal detector.
Composite nails are available too, and will avoid the issue altogether.
Congrats on 700k
I made a push block the other day and stupidly attached the bottom piece with brad nails. Zipped right through them on the second cut 🤦
No blade damage as far I can tell but it did spark quite a bit.
Carbide blades where created to allow carpenters to cut through preexisting framing without having to replace the blades often.
Hi James
After 35 years as a sawdoctor / saw sharpener I can assure you that the carbide tip will fracture before the softer solder unless the saw is of poor quality and condition
Maybe you haven't, but I have personally sees a whole carbide tooth come off a saw blade. I know others who have, as well.
I nicked a small, 1" wood screw in a sled once and it tripped my Sawstop. Lesson learned.
I once hit a piece of some type of igneous gravel with my bandsaw, & that created a lot of sparks too (and really badly wrecked the blade since I did think it was just a small nail or BB & pushed on through). Still got no idea how a piece of gravel ended up embedded several inches into a tree trunk; my thinking is that it embedded itself early & was absorbed as the tree grew around it. Something to think about if a piece of urban/industrial tree does something weird to your tools.
Several years ago I was slabbing an urban log on my bandsaw mill and got surprised with a bunch of sparks. The tree had been near a gravel-covered flat roof and over the years some of the gravel had fallen into a crotch in the tree, gradually becoming embedded in the wood as the tree grew. Lost a lot of teeth on that blade.
@@matthewsmith8573 This makes me want to embed things in trees for future woodworkers to find. Nice things though, like.. different types of wood maybe.
Hitting nails is a pretty regular occurrence in construction carpentry. Each framing nail has a small but noticeable effect on your typical carbide blade. Screws are noticeably worse. If I know the blade is going to be trash before we get to the finish stage anyway, I hardly even try to avoid it, though. You can repurpose a lot of cutoffs and other "dirty" wood before totally killing a cheap carbide blade.
I cut through so many more nails, which isn't many with my 12" compound miter saw and it laughs it off. Sawdust though is creepy because a pile can smolder until it all turns black. Not allowing sawdust to accumulate is always smart.
I cut through a nail with my compound miter saw and bent the fence by about 1/64 of an inch. However that was from the end to the center of it so there was no adjusting to fix it and sadly I could no longer get a replacement either.
Mine triggered when I was cutting a bevel and I forgot to move my miter fence over to clear the blade. It ruined the blade and brake but didn't leave a scratch on the aluminum miter fence.
Saw blade is generally the only thing you’ll likely need to replace, if your cutting a whole bunch of ferrous metals cleaning out the saw is a good idea to remove the swarf before rusting. 🤷🏻♂️ as a carpenter working on houses cutting through framing nails, you might chip a tooth or loose they don’t go whipping around the room as you would expect 😅 same with router bits, snapped one while using it inappropriately routing brass broke at full tilt and it just dropped to the ground 🤷🏻♂️. When a blade loses a tooth it’s generally in contact and under load and breaks while almost stationary. The blades spinning but the energy is Dissipated into the material.
Just as a bit of information carbide blades on a skilsaw will run through 16p all day. Obviously not ideal but talk to any carpenter doing demolition and he's probably cutting through multiple layers or shingles and nails. Carbide is the top of the food chain
Ridge Carbide, my favorite blades and sharpening service.
Is it possible if the moisture density is high enough that the wood itself could conduct. So even if you are not directly touching the nail the wood might provide a path to your body and cause the brake in a SawStop saw to fire?
They come with an override so you can disengage it for wet wood iirc.
So wait. What you`re saying is that the more candy and bacon i eat the better my Sawstop will work? Thanks!