The Amazing Present & Future of Vinyl Records
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- In this video we explore the main aspects and trends of vinyl records today and as well as the near future projections, in particular HD vinyl, which seems on the verge to revolution the industry.
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Sources:
RIAA U.S. Sales database: www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/
Forbes: www.forbes.com/sites/billrose...
Hd Vinyl: hdvinyl.org/ 
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HD Vinyl has potential. The main problem is the source for laser cutting. The best option imo would be DSD - it's the closest sounding digital to analog tape. Paul McGowan from PS Audio is building a recording studio, that will use DSD for capturing and mastering the sound. Imagine combining their masters with HD Vinyl - the sound could be spectacular:)
Good point...but I also like high quality linear PCM...it depends....my favorite digital recordings (trasfers) are PCM...new DSD recordings are exceptional...
Upvote for thinking like I was thinking on getting the most out of the the digital source! Currently after a lot of listening I prefer MQA on most occasions over DSD, but I realize this is a contentious point! I'm also wondering if the amount of data in a DSD file would prohibitive to the laser transferring of the information to the Ultra HD as compared to an MQA file?
I don't think that is an issue because the laser will carry the signal not the data...
@@anadialog Ahh thanks for the reply!
I got it now fascinating stuff!
The way I look at it, converting PCM to 11.2MHz DSD sounds better than the original PCM at CD quality, so converting PCM to a vinyl disc through laser cutting could very well sound amazing. DSD source probably the best option though.
Not sure how you didn't know, but there are quite a few different manufacturers of NEW vinyl presses in the world, such as 'Newbilt' from Germany (which is what Jack White purchased when he put in NEW vinyl presses at Third Man Records in 2015) and manufactured in Canada is 'Viryl Technologies' which is a vinyl press that is fully computerized/automated.
There are dozens of new pressing plants in the US alone and are being built all over the world.
There are also companies that build new parts for the older vinyl presses and do maintenance etc.
As far as laquer cutting lathes, these are also available and a custom build of course... but if someone wants one, all it takes is $$... no worries...
There is a huge support blanket for this industry.
When there are $$ involved there will always be someone building something bigger/faster/better, so no worries!
Enjoy your videos!
This (interesting) comment was spammed...just got it back. Very interesting! But trust me, the grand majority of current production is mainly based on old machines...said that, I am glad to see that new gear is beeing produced. This is another confirmation that VINYL IS BACK!
HD vinyl is definitely important for the survival of the format/attorneys! Because when the older resources we have now (laquer producing plants, cutting lathes, etc.) run out, the only way to produce LP's then will be through HD vinyl! Fantastic video man! PS , as long as the digital source is higher than 44.1k/16bit, it's fine! 192 or even 96k/24bit captures more of the analog source, in turn "sounding" more like analog!
I can concur with your statement about sample rates. The last band I was in recorded an EP to be self-released. Obviously, being unsigned and without an unlimited source of money to afford 2" tape to record & mix analog (mastering will typically be digital since it's still the dominant format source people listen to generally), we did it fully digital @ 192/24 and that's what was uploaded to DiscMakers for the 1000 CD copies we had them press. Vinyl pressing is (because it's very archaic tech now) very expensive now as well (hence the higher price we have to still pay...but it's thankfully going down to what it was in vinyl's heyday) so we couldn't afford that.
The reason I bring this all up is that even the CD version sounds like it was recorded analog because of that high sample rate. Would I love to see this get a vinyl press? Absolutely. The guitarist still has the high-resx master and he might fund that but for the time being, I'm even happy with the mp3 version I personally ripped from the source 2 track master and uploaded to Amazon, Spotify & iTunes. Look up The Dreamwire on Spotify and hear for yourself.
That first point is really important. Thank you for this new perspective!
Thank you!
Your videos are amazing. So much information here... Thank you!
I have no idea why I haven't subscribed.
I absolutely adored your brilliant dark side of the moon comparison.
I,ve corrected that now.
Regarding the environment I think that a record is the best use you can make out of plastic because unlike packagings or other things (even phones and computers) they are treasured and kept forever and they never end up in a landfill or in the ocean. 🙂
Gianluca Saccone good point
Gianluca Saccone True. Plus one of the great pleasures of my collecting is shopping at an independent used record shop. I love the smells and sounds. Records, when taken care of, can be resold for others to enjoy almost indefinitely! So many of my most cherished records were $5 finds and when I trade them, they will be in great condition for the next owner to enjoy!
I really appreciated this video! I’m excited for HD vinyl!
Thanks man!
Exactly Gianluca, he should cut the environmentalist stuff. It's not correct.
I love your videos, agree with all of your tips and advice on turn tables and vinyl records, keep up your good work.
Thanks Norman!
Thanks for your reflexion
I'm totatly agree with you.
Good post. I hadn't heard of HD vinyl! Though less of the economics: if there is money to be made from making cutting machines then they will happen-there will be no shortage.
You have a magnificent channel, my Italian brother! 😁
I find it really funny that we have all this high-tech stuff now but manufacturers are just unable to produce older things like this. There's just so much stuff missing these days
like: vinyl cutting machines, quality tape heads and mechanism, stable motors for record players (my plastic turntable from the 80s runs smoother than modern stuff), proper high power amplifiers for speakers, any kind of button or knob that doesn't break after a few years of use.
It's not funny...its sad! :-(
Interesting, will need to try this out for sure
Great vídeo. A huge hug from Brazil my Italian friend
Thank you Anderson! A big huf from Florence!
I love this info!
It is obvious that the analog still has room for improvement (a lot), it is not dead-end tech as most people thought.
I wish the vinyl its self needs the newest material, i.e. it has a staticproof, scratch-resistant surface, etc or adding more feature, for example, RFID chip implant in unused/inner part of the vinyl disc, so the owner can read more info (artist, lyric) by using a smartphone with an RFID reader.
It is OK if Digital processing is used in the production stage (I'm sure that the vinyl HD company will use the highest resolution of the digital system), as long as the end-user plays in an analog system. :)
With the affordability of equipment getting better, I think it's going to keep growing. I'm happy to say that even in my small town, our local record shop made enough money to move to a bigger space. I also believe social media is playing a role in this, especially among younger people. If you follow musicians on social media, they'll post pictures of their LPs, along with fans posting their audio set ups.
Absolutely true!
Thanks for new information
I'm totally agree with you
Thank you, Sandesh!
Bravo, Obrigado.....
I really loved the explanation of this hd vinyl! In my opinion it's a great technology for our times, and the downside of being for digital source is not even a downside, since pretty much all new vinyl releases are digital, even reissues get a conversion from tape when they master them. The few labels doing analog to analog will surely continue as they are already doing, and they may even be able to buy traditional equipments from labels that are moving to hd vinyl!
Also I think that it's interesting that HD vinyl is based on laser etching: lasers are developing at the same rate microprocessors are, I can already imagine a future HD vinyl II on which they will be able to use so much power that each and every LP will be etched by the laser instead of being stamped, increasing quality even more!
Interesting! You're right! That is surely going to be the next step!
Perhaps one day, the records will be 3D printed?
I was thinking about that as well.. could be, but a laser will always be more accurate...
@@VictoryHighway I have a 3d printer, so I know enough the topic. There are two problem with 3d printing: accuracy and speed. The sound on a vinyl is encoded in really small continuous variations of depth, whereas a 3d printer deposits layers of molten plastic. You would need a really tiny layer thickness to have enough precision. Also you would need really small nozzle sizes to achieve that kind of accuracy, but already 0,2 mm (that would be enormous for such an application!) are so thin that they tend to clog. Also more precision means less deposited plastic per passage, that translates to more time, exponentially. Printing something the size of a vinyl record would already take around 5-10 hours with current technology, cranking the resolution up to that level would bring it to weeks or even months! Laser will be the way to go, you just need to etch the surface, and power of the laser won't be a problem as it doubles every year following something similar to Moore's law on pc!
Thanks for sharing, I do look forward to HD vinyl. To be honest I've some "Digital Master" LPs and they sound great. At the end of the day, it's what works for you. Today, I've the choice of listening to either streaming master audio files with Tidal with a good pair of high end headphones, or put on a CD or a vinyl. I've to say the "analogue" sound of a vinyl is just so different, it breathes, it's warm, yeah I am definitely more of a vinyl guy. Cheers!
Well, unless you have audiophile releases or original lp's from the 40's to the mid 90's they are ALL already sourced from digital...sadly!
To cut down on the issue of the cutting lathes, there is a company that has been looking at a laser etching option. (Basically they would cut the die plates directly for the record presses, and out of a material that has a longer life, so that the reproductions are more consistent.)
Judging from your comment ti did not the the secod part of the video ;-)
I hadn't heard of HD vinyl before. We'll just have to wait and see what it sounds like.
I think HD Vinyl is really exciting. I don't see any technical reason why it can't be done, but I do worry that the project will never come to fruition because the profitability of it may not be good enough for it to ever be realized. I really hope they can make it happen.
@@AndyBHome I agree, and here's hoping it works out. Regarding the business end, I've just seen that Neil Young is publishing a book on what happened to his Pono Hi-res device, which was killed off by big business, apparently.
I wish they made an analog version of HD Vinyl, where the laser cuts the ceramic in real time fed by an analog signal :) Even if it made no audible difference, cause it's about morals XD
Any update on the HD Vinyl launch date? I can't find anything...I'm very curious now
Nope! I think it's going to happen within the 1st quarter of 2020
A lot of great points, but there are actually new pressing plants opening as reported by Michael Fremer. They are refurbishing old pressing machines, and there is a German company building new pressing machines. I do look forward to trying out a HD vinyl LP, but I hope they at least use 192/24 files. I first heard about HD vinyl about a year ago and the only thing I haven't heard is the estimated cost for an album. You mentioned the stylus maybe an issue, but I believe it may be best listened using a fine line type stylus tip to fully retrieve all the sound from the grooves. I have two fine line styluses and two elliptical styluses so I will be able to test out which does the best.
Yes of course new are opening but very few and mostra of the are refurbishibg old machines...in any case, I think we all agree on the fact that this technology is old and requires development and sustainability. Loibl declared that dedicated turntables will be developed, I think that translates in tonearm and cartridge, not the motor...but we will see!
We already have a stylus for high frequencies ,the Shibata as it was used for playback of the ultra high frequencies of CD-4 also known as quadraphonic records that had an upper frequency range of 45khz.
Shibata is a specific type of diamond stylus cut, not a cartridge. In any case, there are several cartridges on the market that can reach even 100khz like Clearaudio Goldfinger, or several carts by Koetsu. Also many around say 50Khz. So no problem in that side.
and about phonocut home vinyl recorder ... any opinions? Thanks
Well, on one side its good to see these projects around vinyl. Getting a closer look I do have some doubts on this, although I hope to be wrong. Cutting laquer needs a highly precise and sophisticated lathe. Moreover, it needs skills, vinyl cutting is an art, in fact cutters always sign their records as artwork. Finally, it is difficult to cut properly in order to preserve all frequencies or most of them. In a nutshell, I doubt that all this can be done with a little machine at home. Otherwise everyone else that has been doing it the other way must be just simply stupid. Again, hope to be wrong.
I'm not sure if someone mentioned this below, but I read a ways down and didn't see it. To go on, Michael Fremer of "Analog Planet" was at the HD Vinyl factory when it was just beginning to tool up with the CEO guy of Pro-Ject and asked the same question about "Analog or digital?" Mr. Fremer looked a little disappointed when he heard the same answer as is being discussed here. I am not sure what to make of it entirely, but whatever happens I am sure it will be good. But perhaps, not as good as an all analog recording and pressing. Why? When it comes to sense of space and depth the mind plays a large part of it, IMHO. I, most likely, won't be able to hear it because of my hearing not being up to par in old age, but knowing is as big a part of listening because of the inner psyche of the listening enjoyment. Somewhat contradictory but so is the talk of analog and digital in many aspects.
I'm excited after hearing this but for one other reason. It seems that music is mastered differently, with less dynamic compression, for vinyl. If records will become more popoular, maybe this will become general trend in digital sources too. Labels could advertise new remastered "vinyl sounding" albums, which would mean just not compress the crap out of songs (which could be done from the start, but hey, better now than never).
I truly hope so!
As soon as you have a sampling rate the point of analogue is largely gone (it's really an admission of limitation- how much of the wave form we captured, we don't have the whole thing). As most albums are recorded hi res digital these days, you may as well go hd vinyl for those. I'm wondering if hd vinyl cutting shapes can be reverse engineered in to some new cutting head. Maybe with today's nano-technology we can take a new approach to to what a cutting head does. Or maybe this is pure science fiction. Either way I fantasise about finding some way at a microscopic level of having huge amounts of stereo bass without the needle jumping. If we have to start from digital to make this happen, aren't we better off listening to a flac file?
We already have the problem that most music on modern day records comes from a digital master and people are still buying them. So there could be a demand for HD Vinyl. But it is kinda pointless to use a laser to "produce" the record and a stylus to play it back. to some point i wish they would come up with something similar to a modern Laser Disc with hi-res audio.
My guess is it will sound very similar to the hi end digital I get from my marantz.
Wonderful but missing something.
I am afraid you may be right...
What is going on with HD vinyl now??? (4/23/2021) And I had heard that the 2 big production houses that had the original masters to most music burned down...is this a rumor or did this really happen? And if it really happened, how with the HD vinyl format compensate for the loss?
Yes, it happened. We lost a lot of original masters of Universal. Very sad story. There are copies around the world...but they are copies. HD vinyl? Clearly they made the step longer that the leg...
It's really important to remember that when you say vinyl outsells CDs, that is purely in terms of dollars. It does not necessarily mean more vinyl units sold than CD units. Remember, vinyl LPs are 2 or 3 times more expensive than a CD. If only 1 vinyl LP sold last year, and only 1 CD was sold, then "vinyl outsold CD's by 3 times," even though exactly the same no. of units were sold.
True, it's only revenue
Regarding HD-LP (Yes, I say "LP" and hope people will stop calling it vinyl soon, and that's my expectation for the future of records), I'd also favour more dynamics (and maybe a bit more loudness), as in 12" singles, over length. I don't need 60+ minute albums (which came up with the CD indeed). 40-45 minutes of good music enough to me.
This is why vinyl is so great:
Put these three things on a shelf--
1. A reel to reel master tape
2. A computer hard drive filled with music files
3. A vinyl record.
Wait 100 years.
Now, if the building is still there and a decent temperature/humidity has been kept, the ONLY format that will be usable will be the vinyl record. The other two will just be garbage.
As I said!
Yes!
@carl hernandez which would last longer on a shelf? A record, Keith Richards or Yoda?
What in the world makes you think a hard drive would degrade?
@carl hernandez he said "Now, if the building is still there and a decent temperature/humidity has been kept[...]".
Any moisture thats going to destroy a hard-drive will undoubtedly ruin a vinyl record...
This is an attempt to step in the right direction (higher quality analog), but the fact that they must use digital as a source ruins it for me. While I agree that transferring a digital file to an analog medium does help take away some of the "digitalness" it is still not as good as pure analog. The industry needs to come up with a new 100% analog chain from recording to mastering to end product. I am not sure if there is enough economic pressure to do so, as digital is convenient and easy to process and store, but I can dream. : )
Dave Rawding , Believe me and scientific fact, it is really ALL in your head!😜😜😜
It's interesting that record sales seem to start dropping off before CDs even came out. My guess is that high quality cassette recorder/players were a significant factor in that trend. I would guess CDs didn't start to have a significant impact on vinyl sales for at least a year, perhaps even 2 or 3 years, after their introduction.
Are cassettes better than vinyls ? I'm wondering ?...
With a High Quality audiophile tape deck cassette player, can it be better than vinyls ? (between vinyls and reel-to-reel)
Thanks !
PS. If so, can you tell me the best tape deck I can buy to have the best sound quality possible ?
Its not that simple...I think that good vinyl sound is more easy to obtain and in most cases better then cassettes. IF we get a good tape deck, a good chrome or metal tape and a good source...it may be the best medium after reel to reel. In some cases it's just as good. I will do soon a video on the good and very good tape decks...of you just can't wait, look for the top models of Nakamichi, Tascam, Technics, Aiwa, NAD, Tanderberg etc.
Thanks !
My only that in the DJ world is that they can use and release EP tracks on vinyl. And not to mention hopeful new analog mixers.
I have HD Vinyl in my yet-to-be published book series (to be fair, it has a fair chunk of alternate history) as a replacement for LP records. Make of it as you will.
I guess sweden is fortunate to have one pressing site for vinyl if there is a few in usa.
Well, not as many you would think, plus they are popping out now...things are changing constantly, but yes, you are lucky. Pressing is the most complex part of the machines necessary to make records.
Yeah, I’m expecting delivery of a 1959 record today. Woo Hoo!
Which company is going to manufacture? Thanks.
You mean HD vinyl? Them! It's a label. They are the ones who are developing and going to manufacture HD lps. Things have slowed down but they are still optimizing the results.
Great subject.. I and my friends would always discuss the debut of an advanced technology for the vinyl medium, and it look's as though with the ever increasing sales the time has finally warranted it viable, through the profitability projections no doubt..
Hey, I was thinking also that we should take into a positive account all of the vinyl sales made optional now and for quite some time for many of the major motion picture prodution soundtracks by the film industry.. I know personally that I MUST and do have the higher quality compositions from, say, the likes of Hans Zimmer and Junkie XL, Alan Silvestri and such.. And they're usually initially offered at 3-4 (in some cases more) Xs the price of the audio CDs!.
("Man Of Steel" and "Batman v Superman: DoJ" are absolute masterpieces along with Gregson-Williams' "Wonder Woman" and "Aquaman" (can very well do without Elfman's "Justice League", God what a horror show.. though perhap's Zack's Cut will contain a Zimmer-Holkenborg accompaniment).. I terribly dislike the new StarWars sequel trilogy but I just had to honor John Williams' grand finale triple.. and thus far Junkie's "Ready Player One" was awesome and cannot wait for his AMAZING "Alita: Battle Angel" soon, the 23rd.. hey..TOMORROW!)--->(Edt)yea, I goofed up, I wasn't paying attention and was expecting it last month but it begin's delivery this month's 23rd.. Oh well, it's worth it.
Great show, thank you for the lowdown my friend, and here's to healthy new spinning soon (CLINK!)
True, we usually overlook the quality of the music and the recordings. Another special thing about scores is that on most cases a full or quasi-full dynamic range is maintained. Fingers crossed for this new step!
@@anadialog > True my friend.. and thank you for the quick and encouraging resonse.
Even though Fox was a major proponet of visual HDR10(& +) and their near total home media offerings are thus formated, for "Alita: BA" they conceded (Hey, who can say no to James Cameron?) to also adding DolbyVison (capable of 10 but also a full 12bits) compatability so it matter's not what your setup is equipped to handle (also a smart business move).. NOW..
.. They all MUST be well aware that purchasers of a seperate soundtrack have as main motivation, of course, the sound quality.. and..
.Another good sign for the scores on vinyl is that the Blu-ray releases have already begun offerring Dolby TrueHD and/or DTS MasterAudio uncompressed audio tracks SO..
..If the film industry's big boys (Sony, AT&T, etc) $mell blood in this new HD-Vinyl tech, then there are very high odds that they WILL back it's further R&D, and that home scores will soon be able to maintain even far more their strictly cinematic level acoustic capability say, in terms of PCM reproduction, of a full 192Kz @ 24bits through 7.1 instead of the currently curtailed 96 @16 in 7.1, or only 44 (not even 48) @ 16 for 5.1 (usually for foreign dubs, the reg DolbyDigital).
Yes, here's hoping for the best of luck.. I have a GOOD feeling about this!
Most modern vinyl is cut from digital anyway using DMM (Direct Metal Mastering) but for audiophile disks the lathes will stay. So will HD vinyl really have an advantage over mass market DMM cut disks from GZ and Record Industry? Interestingly the best sounding disks sourced from files I have are cut to lacquer.
Because they are very expensive and the technology is obsolete, forgotten. As I said, we don't have the blueprints anymore of this stuff. It isn't a matter of mere technology but of memory and practice of that technology. Today its easier to make a stealth aircraft than a Zeppelin!
A company in Canada is making new presses. Furnace have 3 and some other plants have them. Complete new design. Technology is similar in many ways to other moulding machines that are produced. Much more expensive than refurbishing old presses.
I dont think they will advertize new styli to get optimal playback on HD vinyl. It would be too expensive and niche first of all, and if its backwards compatible anyway then the grooves cant be that different from normal records. They might suggest thinner profiles for optimal playback, but that goes for all records.
Whaaaat!
Do you realize that the Laser to make the new stamps would be controlled by Digital equipment?
So what is this hole digital vs analogue issue?
This just strengthens my view that vynal adds artifacts to the sound that some people crave.
I said that! Did you watch all the video? And I also some how support the project...no issue here, it's a different and interesting thing...when I want full analog I know where and what to look for...
Which is a better turntable?:
Sony PS-LX310BT or Audio-Technica Consumer AT-LP60XBT?
The Sony looks superior, especially for that nifty tonearm...
@@anadialog according to B&H the A.T. has the newer Bluetooth 5.0 aptx codec. I'm torn between the two because I want the newest Bluetooth, but I also want to rip via usb. Knowing this, would you STILL choose the SONY over the AT?
@@mikeanderson7962 you are probably asking the wrong guy ;-)
I hate bluetooth, even the latest protocol. There is a clear sound degradation. Cable is always the way to go. Obviously for a party or casual listening Bluetooth is fantastic! Yes, I still vote for the Sony. Its components are just better and they will help to extract more information from the grooves!
@@anadialog thanks for your input! I need Bluetooth because my soundbar is on the opposite side of the room from my turntable. I'll probably go with the Sony based your recommendation. I just hope the Bluetooth can reach across my room. That's why I was really looking at the A.T. with the newer 5.o Bluetooth
Hi, I'm not new to your channel but I've never commented.
Very interesting all the explanation. The purists will come to say that the result is a black 12 'CD.
The issue of the alleged new needles is a sensitive issue. I have heard that since there is no error in the grooves, expensive needles with a sophisticated cut will no longer be so necessary.
Another positive factor is that the higher the production, the lower the cost of the units.
Hi Roberto! Thanks for chiming in. True, I didn't think about the cuts.. I am a purist but I am also interested and open to new sonic solutions...let's see what happens!
@@anadialog I'm not an obsessive purist, if vinyl HD has more dynamics, more recording time, less distortion and low noise, it's more than enough for me. Anyway, almost all regular re-editions are made from digital masters and are also full of defects.
True...
I wonder what would happen if they did a HD 78 record and the specs (+dbx in the bassrange ) might be awsum -curiosa -could it reach old vinyl quality from 1950s ?
It would be awesome...but are you willing to get up every 4-5 minutes? Not me! ;-)
HD vinyl 78's ? or 45's and what about HD 18 rpm then the missing pitch would be there.
I got really excited listening to you talk about HD until....you mentioned digital :( Surely there MUST be away to do this using analog sourcing!?
I would have hoped so but sadly, no. In any case we are still waiting for the inception of this project. They had some problems but they are claiming that they will start production by the end of this year. Now with COVID19, things are probably shifting again.
So a vinyl pressing plant could sell cold ,perfect and a hot version of a LP basicilly .Price 10$ for cold 30 for perfect and 20$ for hot version relese. assuming the quality are in this order.
Well, the problem is the fact that we don't know! They just batch them up and send them to the packing facility. Only audiophile labels check all processes like Quality Pressings at Analogue Productions.
What really needs to be measured is the percentage of vinyl sold against other mediums. Vinyl now competes with many and various
types of reproduction available that just weren’t around in its glory days when it had no competition.
I'm curious to know why sales spiked in "77 and '78. I started buying records in 1973 and they were of course the main means of music reproduction. 1977 was the beginning of new wave. I wonder if that led to a generational upsurge in record buying? Was disco suppressing sales? And why wasn't the peak in the mid 70's when huge acts like Paul McCartney and Elton John were stomping the pop landscape? Its an interesting graph.
True...I think that it was just the moment of true affirmation and distribution or records...perhaps also a significant drop in price respect to the past? I don't know...must investigate...
@@anadialog I think the sales increase in 77 and 78 was due to the Bee Gees and the Saturday Night Fever. Let's remember that it was the best selling album in history until that moment.
www.elvis-express.com/elvisradio_articles_7778recordsales.html
Even if it is backwards compatible, and the stylii work fine, the manufacturers will tell us we need to upgrade, just watch! Stylii optimised for HD
I dont think that will happen, and if its backwards compatible the grooves couldnt be very different anyway. They would likely just suggest using a thin profile to optimize playback, which it does for all records.
Do you know how expensive the HD vinyl should be?
BR
Stefan
Loibl of Rebeat, declared that they will fix the price for the stamper, the final.product is up to the labels...😱
Which probably means higher than normal, at least in the beginning...
@@anadialog > Yes that's sound's logical.. since it's a new (well, a new-old) tech debut, it will most likely be somewhat more expensive, than the contemporary vinyl.. BUT.. They must be aware that they'll need to stay competative with the other current formats so, the difference between this and those should be insignificant OR, if it's more it would be an initial necessity and the prices should shortly level as it take's off
@@anadialog This is going to be exciting. 💰
🤞
Great video! The digital source is indeed a letdown I must say. However I am one of those who have thoroughly enjoyed listening to MQA digital audio. I would love to hear what a fully unpacked MQA digital sourced HD vinyl would sound like that would get me very interested.
True!
I have full confidence that there will eventually be more pressing plants
If their is enough demand for something suppliers will want that money
Every year I see more and more people at record stores than I’ve ever seen
I started collecting vinyl in the early nineties
Traditional hole in the wall eclectic record shops use to be for the most part empty
But now they are always packed
This is not a fad this is something that has been building for quite a long time
Indeed!
When it comes to environmental impact of vinyl: the average turntable has a very long lifespan and the Technics SL1200G we have will probably serve two lifetimes.
That in contrast to the average PC or other streaming devices that get dumped within 10 or often 5 years.
I have not heard of HD vinyl before, but I already look forward to it.
I like the noiseless background of DMMs, but with a high S/N ratio of HD vinyl, that will be even more amazing.
Btw, I know Lonsdale is just a regular sports brand in most of Europe, but over here (Netherlands) it has very strong ties to skinhead extremism.
So to me it looks kinda... "funny".
@DJ Jeff Hehe yeah I know about Mokum records, nice music. DJing is how I started out turntabling, the Technics SL1200 and Vestax PDX series were the most common pro decks back then. The majority still works fine after al those years.
I may still have some Mokum vinyl, but I've sold most of them, only saved the best oldies. Especially those TSA vinyls, mostly released on Pengo Records. I also have kept most of the BuzzFuzz stuff and thunderdome releases.
The amount of toxic byproduct in the production of vinyl records is minuscule (nearly immearsureable) when compared to the amount toxins produced by solar cell and lithium battery manufacturing especially considering that most of that is in Asia whose enviromental record is dismal. However, your point on the production bottleneck is spot on. Plus, it would be nice to see retail shops set up a recycle bin since old worn out LP's can be discarded and recycled. The future of HD vinyl sounds exciting. Enjoy your dialog.
Thanks Mark! Yes, you are right, but it is interesting and useful to know that there is an impact on the environment.
@@anadialog You are welcome! Enjoy the commentary. I am learning a lot.
I bet a lot of modern LP's also use digital audio in the production along the way. I look at it like 3 different kinds of magic; recording, production, and playback magic. The playback magic is what we're really concerned with, and I'm not convinced digital audio can't sound a lot more like true analog when it is pressed into some vinyl instead of going through a DAC in realtime.
I'd say 98% is digitally sourced. I see your point. Surely the analog format makes the digital source much more pleasing.
Sad to say, but as far as recording music, it's MUCH cheaper to record digital. Another commenter mentioned this but it's all about that sample rate. In the early days, it was 16/44.1 and the majority of us were ok with that. However, with my experience in the studio as well as a complete musicphile (meaning I live, breathe and everything else music and am a fan of nearly any style of music), I've noticed more modern recordings are DDD typically but even I'm noticing a lot of recent albums, albiet from a high-res digital source file, being pressed to vinyl which I think is amazing. Now with older recordings that predate full digital recordings (about up to 1979/1980), those original pressings will be a complete AAA version on vinyl since digital wasn't a thing back then The first FULL DIGITAL recording I purchased on vinyl was Madonna's Like A Virgin when it came out in 1984 @ Musicland for $6.99 on sale. It sounded awesome actually! Better than a CD copy even.
High resolution and especially well mastered digital are more than welcome here! ;-)
@@anadialog For smaller musicians, like myself, it's the way to go. Plus, since I still have the high res masters, I could...one day...press to vinyl...one day...
HD vinyl may or may not be that much better than DMM, since I think the limitations are likely to become mainly the playback rather than the cutting process.
And again... Digital is not evil :) When properly implemented, it is great, wonderful indeed. Keep in mind that many LPs released in late 80s have some digital ingredient, yet they sound very well. The UMG fire, for example... Very sad story and those masters are forever gone :( If they were digital that would not be so tragic; with digital you can have as many originals as you like, and store them in as many different places as you can, for safety.
A tragedy...😰
Intresting very intresting. But I only see one problem in the future for vinyl records. And that's the oil. Vinyl comes from the oil and I have the slidest idea were running out of this in a few years.
So how are they keep pressing new records , in let's say 40 years?
I am sure that they will find another material suitable for the purpose. Personally I cannot wait for the moment when plastic in all its forms will disappear for good. Sadly we are probably going to face something similar or worse...
@@anadialog Well time will tell. I don't think we wont make it to that time, at least I don't. I'm 60 now so in my life I wont see the other material. But I agree with you plastic has to disapear for good and there has to come a replacement.
I am sure you will!
If it's cut by laser, it should be read by laser also. No feedback, no vibration sent through the tonearm.
It is stupid to cut it with high precision laser and read it with friction stylus.
That is called Compact Disc ;-)
See the irony? We may have a high resolution "compact disc" if a laser will be used.
As long as the playback head is the good old stylus, all that sound in the pressing will be coloured by the environment.
We still need to decouple and isolate, as good as you can.
Steve - Do more episodes with Matt. He's got a healthy amount of skepticism. Pat
Also there no single sales
hi there's no sign of the cost i just know it will be for the lot with lots of money
HI this man is the right one to do this i watch his video's yes he goes on a bit the thing is reel to reel
decks are a right pain when going down
lucky i am a tec my otati mx70 needs work
it's the cap some have died getting away from
reel to reel masting is the best way we are running out of tec's to fix them
A++++
Though the concern for the future of vinyl is valid, we can at least take comfort in the fact that there are a “gazillion” used analog records in circulation right now and that number will continue to grow at least until the last old school record pressing plant has closed its doors! That’s enough for generations to come assuming Humanity survives that long.
True...we're safe!
GREAT VIDEO ,
Nothing can beat the reel-to-reel master tapes, or maybe HD cassettes/VHS... ?!
AAA full digital HD vinyls is a joke for me, even if they use the DSD format !
SACD 2.0 ?...
Must to be listened to see what it looks like so I'll buy an HD Vinyl as soon as they are avaible !
You want perfection? 30ips reel to reel tape on a professional deck. My reference recording regardless the format, is a master tape copy 15ips of Pink Floyd's "The Wall" on my A810 Studer...flabbergasting!!
Of course but unfortunatly not cheap :( ...
@@guillaumelabesse8161 sadly true...but you can find great deals if you look around with patience with excellent sound (If the machine is serviced and calibrated for recording).
Almost the end of 2022 and still..... NO HD VINYL!
I know...😔 Did you see my interview with the founder of HD vinyl? ruclips.net/video/ip_ieAwOcok/видео.html
I have over 3000 vinyls and over 3000 CDS so I have my foot in both camps. I can't deny that Analog is fun. However, for many reasons I strongly prefer CDs.
Analog technology is expensive. The trend today for moving coil phonograph cartridges ignored the most important aspects of performance seen in vinyl's heyday, the ability to get the best tracking capabilities without degrading the record. These desirable characteristics were optimized in high compliance low dynamic mass moving magnet designs. Their output was considerably higher as well because the coils in a moving magnet cartridge do not contribute to the dynamic mass and therefore many more turns of wire were possible. They could successfully track most records without distortion at on gram or less. I have one high end CD4 cartridge that falls into this category wit an FR to 45 khz. Its Shibata like stylus has greater contact area further reducing stress on the soft vinyl. Higher tracking force cartridges can degrade sound quality with a single play.
The mastering of vinyl phonograph records given the technical limitations of the medium required great skill. It's probably a largely lost art. It should be noted that without Dolby A, or knob twirling a vinyl phonograph record made from analog tape undergoes 6 equalizations between the time the signal leaves the microphone and the time it reaches your preamplifier output. Add Dolby A and it jumps to 14. Vinyl records were mostly manufactured before low cost multi band equalizers were available to the consumer. Therefore today FR in the audio passband is among the least important factors to consider so long as there are no significant resonances. If you are willing to use one you can tweak the FR to whatever you want it to be.
The art of mastering for vinyl is truly disappearing...but there are a lot of great engineers...for the rest, I agree on some points but not completely...if everything is done properly, records will live forever! In any case, we also have cassettes that are better than digital, again, you need to known what you are doing...
After the revelations of the UMG fire and half a million master tapes, allegedly turned to ash. I wonder where all the sources will come from, in the future?
I am still under shock...
@@anadialog Jiust look for sheryl crow and you won't find much, only post 2008 is available, it seems. They will run out of these albums eventually if the digital master copy was turned to ashes. It's easy to see what has gone, and what has survived. Just by looking for vinyl. No vinyl, = no tapes or digital files. Supertramp only has two albums on vinyl COTC & BIA. It looks like the first two TP no longer exist either? allegedly. So, we have to wonder where al this stuff is coming from? if they do. it could all be reversed HI RES downloads? look at 7digital they provide all the Hi Res downloads for all the other online companies.
HD Vinyl coming from a digital source kind of renders it pointless IMO. It's like shooting a movie on film, then putting it through any digital process. You're reducing the continuous, organic, atomic material to something made of very finite, quantifiable, chunky blocks. It's like recreating the Mona Lisa with Lego. Sure, it's fine at a distance, but it loses all the flow of every brush stroke from da Vinci's own hand.
In principle, yes, I agree. Nevertheless, I am eager to try it considering that 95% of today's releases are sourced from digital,.
Still 1 groove per side.
If the demand for vinyl becomes bigger every year then why not build a new factory for vinyl production.I know it's an obsolete technology but if they can built it 50 or 60 years ago
today it should be much easier.The whole HD vinyl doesn't look promising for me.If you have a digital file as a source then it's like getting back to when CD was introduced.
The naturalness of vinyl exist because there's nothing digital in it.Anything digital will make it sound more artificial.Maybe HD vinyl is cheaper to make so that's what it's all about.
The same promises for perfect sound etc where made when CD was introduced so don't throw your hats yet.
Well, 99% of vinyl records made today are sourced from digital...so HD vinyl isn't changing anything.
You're bringing up the environment is like , so what. In the beginning there was only vinyl, cassette gave us mobility and is still good today, reel to reel gave us high quality , for home use. The cd gave us high quality, mobility and for me greatest access to classical music. The record will survive , there is so much hardware now, they will invest in new record plants..
The hd vinyl will kill regular vinyl. We might as well just stay with cd.
Vinyl is good, excellent, cd also , sacd even better still , but people didn't care. It seems that cheap rules.
Beta was better than VHS no one cared
HD vinyl will likely wear out the stylus quicker and i don't think it will take off
The essence of today's vinyl is not the frequency range but rather the warmth of the sound .it is so involved
I have a thousand in mint condition under the house, where they belong. Got it all on CD or mp3. Sound is superior. That’s why I don’t use the first Edison lightbulbs. Spell it O B S O L E T E.........
Sell them to me!!
main issue i have is new vinyl is utter rubbish , compressed and lots of surface noise . all down to profit margins :(
Books are sold on cd and those statistics are not included along with used.CD sells out at every show while vinyl doesn't. Interesting how the statistic paint a different picture.Analog died in the early 90's when the recording studios quit mastering with analog.Nothing new.Modern digital lasercut records.Why not just stick with compact disc?
Can’t stand records , bought 3 in my life , I’m 55, always been a tape , mini disc man and cd , and use all three mediums every day , tapes since I was 15,, 40 yrs and mini disc for 20 yrs cheers Shane uk 🇬🇧
If you love tape...I live you! ;-)
what an interesting topic! after watching your excellent video, I went to watch Fremer's interview with the CEO of Rebeat in the offices of Pro-Ject. in my opinion, the HD vinyl is crap! As unfortunately so many album reissues or new releases made thinking of vinyl as a hipster fashion. in many cases the cuts of the lacquers are made using very bad .mp3 files. The direction in which the HD vinyl could take us would be catastrophic as a point of no return! Let us not be enchanted. Vinyls sound better when they come from analogue sources.
We need a system of source control and certification...just like fancy food or other high quality products...
Speaking of the environment, vinyl can be reused. Yes, it has been done before with less than impressive results, but that was because they didn't remove the labels before remelting. If labels are being removed, then all the tons of crap records at thriftstores, fleamarkets, used record stores etc. that no one want's to buy, can be made in to cool new albums that people actually wish to own.
Another way to spare the environment could be to make sure that crap artists aren't allowed to release their crimes against mankind on vinyl. For instance Justin Bieber albums can be found everywhere, and of course no one in their right mind will buy such garbage. Therefore they will end up being dumped and pollute the environment. In other words; If pressing vinyl with country, german schlager, Cliff Richard, Britney Spears, boy bands, slut singers, and all other kinds of no taste - no talent crap was prohibited, it would be good for the environment, for the mental health of the masses, and infact free up capacity to press real music.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
So true!
True at the end
Engineering is deliberately getting worse .
Its us Djs that kept Records running , well some of us have as it takes effort to use Records
This has prevented some of the machines to stay in use .
7" singles could come back as Djs are now using them but not much , the sound quallity will not be good as the grove is to close to the center , thats why the base line is not that good .
Thank us Djs for Records continuing today .
They made the machines back in the day , now they cannot .
They make enough computer crap these days , its everywhere , but there is no engineers now .
Us Engineers are now out of work , it is a thing of the past .
Do you DJ's still use 12inch and analog mixers.
Toxic Waste? Do you know how many chemicals are used in everything we use daily? At least in the western world where we have environmental regulations, that waste is generally handled quite well. I think your fears are generally overblown. The process used to make records is no different than anything else. Injection molding of plastics, plating of parts....no real difference in "toxic waste".
The nichel fixation for the stampers, among other passages, requires a load of chemicals. Yes, of course other aspects of our life are even worse, but why not make thos better. It is and remains an issue.
@@anadialog Have you ever been in a plating shop? We use all sorts of nasty chemicals but the key is to handle them safely and responsibly which we do. My point is Vinyl records are no different than many other things that we use and the manufacturing process isn`t that different.
Records have come a long long way.
Both in durability and in sound.
Comparing a modern release with a vintage record is pretty startling! LOL
Not accurate...I'm new to vinyl but I have 70's albums that sound better than new re-releases, and that's including wear and tear.
That's for sure!
..... 11:00, And let's not forget we only have two DMM lathes in the world!
Couple of things you forgot to mention - records eventually get dirty, ticks and pops. As the stylus moves toward center, the grooves become more and more compact making it difficult for the stylus to track accurately. I haven't heard a vinyl record in such a long my ears have become digital. I'll stick with cds/aac music. The convenience, low maintenance, portibilility make it a winner. They have done wonders with older music through the digital medium. Not everything sounds great but the majority sounds pretty close to vinyl without all the drawbacks.
Well...I can only say that if you know how to move, you will here the perfect groove...and this channel is a good place to start! ;-)
@@anadialog I don't have those problems with my linear turntable. So if you Boots Amstrong are wellwilling to try a linear turntable and take good care off your records, you will have a whole new demension. And yes I allso use High res audio. Sometimes I buy a File from the HDTracks site and store them at a NAS. The player I use then is a Pioneer N-70 and that allso sounds amazing. But you don't have the experiance of putting on a record at a player.
@@showstopperrob1097 I never tried a liner turntable and I'm sure tracking in a straight line greatly increase accuracy but it still doesn't change the fact that the grooves on the record become more compact due to the slower rotation of the record as the stylus moves toward the center. I did have a large record collection of vinyl that was in pristine condition but I had to get rid of it when I moved. I still love that you can play a song on a CD 1000 times and there's no wear, less noise and I've never come across a CD that was off center or warped - like can happen to vinyl. 😄
@@bootsarmstrong8421 Well Boots, I have no idea where you live but, I let you hear albums from the 60's and 70's that sounds still as good as they came from the factory.. It all depends how you handle them.
I agree...!
There is a lot of missinformation here, just to point 3 things:
8:15, vinyls are made of PVC, like a lot of things, yes, it's plastic, but no one is throwing them in the ocean
15:54, nickel and "other" metals are not involved in the press process, only in the creation of the matrix, and there is a good percentage of recovery, so it's quite friendly
12:04 that was maybe in the 50's, today the whole operation is controled by computers, so, no, it's not old technology.
I think you were watching a different video! No misinformation. You are changing my words.
1- I did not say that, I actually said that fortunately people are keeping them at home. Plus, I was talking about the Polyvinylchloride process. This process is a refining petroleum process and it creates waste. Plus it is too expensive to reuse and very rarely it is done.
2- again, I never said it is used in the pressing process (???). It is used to create the stampers and the make a ton of stampers each day. Plus, the process to fix the nickel uses a variety of chemicals that create a huge toxic waste each day.
3- Yes, but the machines are the same of the 50's!!
HD vinyl is digital and 99% of all new vinyl is digital. There really isn't anything analogue about the mastering. There is no resurgence of vinyl It is a new Media called Digitally Mastered Vinyl (or 12" CD's) which is nothing like original vinyl. Digitally mastered Vinyl will be around for a long time but the sales will decline over time to be mediocre. I have stopped purchasing this digital vinyl crap 2 years ago. I only purchase new vinyl if it is 100% analogue as it should be but it is rare. These are hard to find and are expensive. Why put a digital file on vinyl? Well because it is cheap and people think their getting great sound on Digitally mastered Vinyl and shelling out 30.00 a pop. It's all Bullshit!!
Yes, I said that in the vid...I usually do the same, 100% analog when possible but, besides the high costs, I think that there is space for this, if the digital quality is truly high resolution and master with attention, little compression and effects. We will see!
I agree. I was really enthusiastic right until before the end of the video...
😂😂😂
Thanks for typing that in 12" CDs , there is no escaping Digital now .
We are keeping our original records , they are irreplaceable .
Yes most of the vinyl pressings of today are indeed cut from digital files. But what if that file is 32bit 768khz? You are getting all that resolution in the grooves and the turntable (if decent) should be able to reproduce it without a sweat. I don't think there is any kind of cd or streaming service that offers such quality at the moment. Correct me if i'm wrong maybe i'm speaking nonsense? Hehe
Screw nature, I want records, I want more records :-) All this story about pressing plants and the machinery is bullshit, does anybody believe we can not build a vinyl pressing machine today? Everything will be rebuild because if anybody can make money with it they will build it, period. All this worrying about the future of vinyl, the technic that is gone, the knowledged workers who are dead or retired is bullshit, big bullshit. Economy and technology always goes where the money is, if we can make money with vinyl records, vinyl records we will have. HD vinyl is one more proof, vinyl has a future so even new technology will be developed, does anybody think they would do this if there is´nt a promise or hope to make money with it?
I agree with you, nobody said the opposite. Only that I am arguing about the actual PRESENT and you of the possible FUTURE. I hope all the chain gets back on track....but now it's not like that.
@@anadialog if people continue to buy records, it will. Watch was Jack White is doing, the HD vinyl, blue note tone poets (check the first tone poets and the quality now), even RTI raised the bar, reissues are getting better again in general, I can go on with that list. Why? Where the money is, there the business goes, I am positive, hopefully not naive:-)....love your videos, learned a lot, thank you!
Don't get me wrong...I hope so!!
point 4: capitalism will provide 👆👍
😂
All presses are running 24/7 and even new ones are built.
Can't listen to CD, it sounds flat and boring.
Same here , poor top end
the cd is flat , otherwise you have a problem. not all vinyl is created equal same with cd , The better labels have the best sound. MP3 is a joke
Mike Hydropneumatic It’s your ears...flat and boring🤣🤣🤣
Ok, let me get this straight, you get an extremely high resolution digital master file to drive the digital lazer cutter, get some vinyl, press it, sell it - put it on your player, lower the cartridge which is really dragging a rock (diamond) along a plastic groove and magic happens. Sorry guys you are all deluded. just play the original digital master tape and get over this vinyl religion thing, it is only adding "distortion" that your brain wants to believe in. This isn't science / physics its just dumb.........wake up, its another sales gimmick. Now where did i put my Trinitron TV, has to be better than my 8k flat screen.............
Modern records are great.
Just get them out of those destructive cardboard, plastic and paper sleeves into a hybrid and you'll be fine.
And the best ones are flea market.