Why did Muslim civilisation fall behind the West? Mustafa Akyol & Dr. Abdullah Ali discuss
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- Mustafa Akyol Reopening Muslim Minds: A Return to Reason, Freedom, and Tolerance, Reviewed by Abdullah bin Hamid Ali www.pdcnet.org...
Mustafa Akyol's Response to Abdullah Ali's Critique of "Reopening Muslim Minds" www.academia.e...
Eid-ul-adha Mubarak to all my brothers and sisters who are celebrating 💚
The west's advancement was majorly driven by colonialism, imperialism & industrialization. 1700s was the time when west began to ascend and the Muslim nations went into stagnation.
Yeh you are right people hate to admit it but the jihad of the sahaba and ummayads was what made the Islamic nation at the top in the first place just as the the age of discovery and colonialism is what made Europe great not reforming religion and civilisation as these people would make you believe
Don't forget the generational memory lost of civilizations. Philippines used to be muslim majority. Philippines is still using the name of the Spanish king that colonized them. Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines all lost their own writing systems and are currently using roman alphabet system. The target group is clear. Non-muslim lands like Thailand get to keep their writing system yet muslim majority lands got fcked extra hard during colonizations and underwent mass deletion of knowledge.
The mass memory lost of own civilization method is straight up from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
It's not a propaganda when anyone can go google to confirm the colonizers Stamford Raffles, Ferdinand Magellan and Radermacher all belonged in the same club despite coming from different colonizer nations. They all built their msonic lodges in the lands they colonized. These lodges are physical buildings, physical proofs you can see with your eyes. This isn't antisemitic bs.
Also it's easy to be ahead of everyone else in technology when you can just delete your competition off the face of the earth when they get on planes. Same pattern every time and they say muslims can't contribute to new tech.
Imperialism and colonialism were a result of the west advancement and not the other way around
The renaissance began in Europe before imperialism and colonisation.
@@chickensoup9869 "Stamford Raffles, Ferdinand Magellan and Radermacher all belonged in the same club " Whats the name of the club?
The modern Muslim author, S.E. Al-Djazairi, has written quite a lot of books on this topic :D "The Golden Age and Decline of Islamic civilisation" in three volumes, and "The Hidden Debt to Islamic civilisation" in five volumes. He uses a wide array of sources, focusing on old contemporary accounts, and using non-Muslim as well as Muslim sources. If anyone wants to understand Islamic history better, Al-Djazairi's books are the some of the very best out there.
There were a number of ahistorical misstatements made in this discussion. Al-Ma'mun who was the first Abbasid sultan who championed Mu'talizah wasn't a champion of freedom of religion and thought; he ordered the killing of members of the Prophet's progeny and imprisoned and tortured Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal for disagreeing with the belief of the creation of the Qur'an. His Mu'tazilah successor al-Mu'tasim was just as much of an oppressor to freedom of thought. I'm really suprised by Mr. Aykol's argument.
Same here. I only have a BA in Middle Eastern Studies and I haven't delve that deep into the intellectual history of Islam and even I know that.
Thank you Mr. Paul. You always address the most interesting topics. Aid Mubarak to you, to your family and to all Muslims 😊❤
Aids ohh my god
If I'm not mistaken Mr. Akyol claims that the mu'tazila somehow championed freedom of religion through their theology but this is simply false, one has to read about 30 years of mu'tazili rule in Baqhdad and how they cracked down on anyone who disagreed with them to understand who the mu'tazila really were.
It’s not what he claims, his praise of the mu’tazila primarily concerns their rational approach, he has special highlighted made clear that the minha (the inquisition to which you refer) was coercive and unjust. He also points out how previous and successive Islamic political entities- including asharites- have done the same. I think his gripe is primarily with coercion, which he accepts Abbassid caliph (mutazila) also engaged in
@@pktank1 This just shows how freedom of religion as Mr. Akyol describes it never existed and how theology doesn't necessarily have to do with freedom or scientific advancement.
This further confirms that Mr. Akyol's ideas are reductionist at best.
Imam ibn Hambal was one of them if i don't mistaking, they tortured him in prisoned him for just opposition their theology.
I think he’s saying that because he is sufi
@@liban4679 yes imam Ahmed bin hanbal refused to do kuruj because it will cause more fitnah
So many good videos lately Paul, I'm trying to catch up because I rewatch each video a couple of times. Keep it up!
Glad you like them!
I remember watching a debate between Mustafa akyol and Abdullah al andalusi that took place 10 years ago
It's baffling to me that Mr. Akyol has not changed his ideas and arguments specially when his arguments have been dealt with for God knows how long.
I remember that discussion also.
True that
I saw Mustafa get really lambasted by Sh Hamza and Dr Jackson at Pepperdine about 5 years ago. He had no textual or rationale comeback for the points Dr Jackson brought forth.
Discussion is definitely better than debate. Thank you.
Need more dialogues between modernists and traditionalists like this instead of the garbage hand-waving both sides do which implies they can't engage in this dialectic.
Agree.
What a beautiful and respectful exchange of ideas. While Dr.Ali seems visibly frustrated at times and is not convinced by the explanations offered, he nevertheless carries himself with immense grace and Br. Akyol’s patience and humility is definitely praiseworthy…very rare in these times where many “scholars” are busy mudslinging each other, with no effort to actually engage in a healthy dialogue, their dismissive attitudes only helping islamophobes.
Have to say, Akyol’s arguments appeal to human intellect. Dr. Ali’s point about freedom having limits in the real world is accurate since absolute freedom of one is probably NOT possible without infringing upon someone else’s freedom/rights. He also reminds us that ultimate wisdom behind all Quranic laws rests with Allah (swt) and whether we comprehend the inherent good or evil in actions, we are obliged to stay within divine boundaries. However, what Akyol tries to get across does not actually contradict that at all. He only stresses that while we can hold “orthodox” beliefs, we have no right to have them imposed on everyone around us. I think Dr. Yasir Qadhi makes that very clear when he says that Islamic punishments that would be applicable under a khilafa, can’t be meted out by governments of nation states. He also highlights that when “Reformation” is brought up, what is meant is reformation of the mind as in our interpretations/understanding of the Deen, and not of the Deen itself.
Also, is it fair to conflate sin and crime? Or should they be understood as two different concepts. Sin is a moral matter, crime a legal… of course some actions fall under both. While we must call out immorality and sinful behaviour, do “Muslim authorities in Islamic countries” have the right to abuse Hudood laws? What does criminalizing something entail?
As for understanding the contentious issues of slavery and concubines in Islam, Dr. Khaled Abu AlFadl of Usuli Institute offers a very thorough, thought provoking and erudite exegesis of the Qur’an. He highlights the moral principles underlying the various Qur’anic injunctions. You can disagree with some of his points but do not let that prevent you from benefiting from his knowledge. Would be good to have him on here some day.
Thank you, Paul, for helping share all kinds of perspectives and discourses.
Very well put mashaAllah
If you choke the text hard enough it will say whatever you want it to say.
When you set a goal for your self before engaging the Quran, and then try to justify what you want based on the text you're conforming your religion to what you want instead of conforming to what the religion wants.
In that sense when people say, we are trying to reform the mind not the Deen, they are just trying to reform the Deen.
I am not saying that this is what Br. Akyol is doing here, but I would look at other things affecting people's moral values which they later try to impose on the religion and also look at myself and see if I am merely trying to reaffirm something which I already knew.
I think this was Dr. Ali's point when he kept affirming that the Mu'tazila had been influenced by outside sources and Br. Akyol kept saying that they relied on the Quran as well, but that misses the point, the Mu'tazila were looking to affirm something they already knew using the Quran instead of letting it speak for itself.
so it really is just a matter of what you consider primary and what is secondary, we all agree that when the philosophers started denying the attributes of god they went too far, but that shows what they considered primary and what secondary, obviously they considered the other outside sources as primary and the Quran secondary.
while the traditional view took the Quran and Sunna as primary.
In the same way people who are calling for reforms whether they say it out right or dress it up as reforming the minds, I see as people who hold secular values as primary and the Quran and Sunna as secondary so I would be very carful dealing with them.
Wa Allahu A3lam.
Agreed. I would love to see shaykh khaled abou el fadl on here. Hes just levels above the other scholars
I am a tenured university professor in engineering in USA, having 60+ peer reviewed papers and 2 US patents. (not showing off, but trying to prove a point)
I have long beard, pants above the ankle and follow the salafi methodology. I am student of Islamic Online University by Dr. Bilal Philips.
I have many friends who are like me. We don't need to reform Islam, Muslims need to come back to Quran and authentic Sunnah to get the glory back. There is no other way.
Allahu akbar! You've spoken the truth, and only the truth.
💯 let’s not fall for their trap.
Mashaa Allah. This is true. May Allah reward you for your efforts brother. I hope to be a good muslim such as yourself.
Yap i ve seen view of scientist in my country who that hold salafi believe, long beard and above ankle pants, and still teaching in the top university
Science is weakest in the land of muslims. Reinterpretation of religious thought is quintessential.
I don't think this conversation got anywhere in terms of answering the question in the title besides Mustafa Akyol quoting one person who didn't think geometry was very useful, I was expecting to hear about some ottoman state policies or some major fatwas or a negative public reaction to technology but we got nothing.
Dear Paul,
With Allah’s blessings I have made duas for you yesterday on the day of Arafa in Makkah. Today i’m in Mina and remembering you in my duas here as well.
You, indeed are an asset for the Muslim Ummah. All praise be to Allah to have guided you to Islam and now he has Alhamdulillah made you a waseela for the guidance of so many people. Just like the Islam of Umar Bin Khattab empowered muslims. Alhamdulillah with Allah’s will and blessings he has empowered the Muslims with your acceptance of Islam.
Eid Mubarak!
JazakAllah o khair.
And Eid Mubarak to you too.
You should plan to do Hajj. And inshAllah when you’ll visit Makkah for Hajj you’ll see how Islam truly is a global religion with absolutely no difference of cast, colour or creed. I have seen richest or the rich people standing right next to the poorest of the poor in prayers and while making Tawaf.
This is the way to discuss our differences in theology, philosophy, apologetics, jurisprudence and sectarian bias between Academics and Intellectuals without calling each other disbelievers, name calling etc where everyone gets lost in the heat of the moment, array and create more confusion!... what we need is Analysis, intellectual challenges and cross-examination to build intellectual bridges despite differences through dialogue between camps and thoughts. 👍🏼🤝🤗 well done Paul. We need more of this type of discussion as well.
please don't. it only brings confusion
@@mrssomeone2143 such discussions are the best method to come out of real confusion and ignorance...
Still listening. Interesting conversation guys. Really appreciate your nuanced dialogues
Thank you for facilitating this discussion Paul. This is a much needed format for the exchange of ideas and bridge building.
Eid MUBARAK to all. Very much appreciated. Paul is bringing very reasonable arguments but not blame game. We need to discuss and find out the reason why our new Gen goes wrong way.
Western civilization may be going through a decline of many generations that can be studied by contemporary scholars. It would be interesting to see if there are similar causes to the Muslim decline. It is always a hope that through such examinations we can learn to avoid past tragedies repeating endlessly through time.
Your channel is the reason I haven't watched a movie on netflix for over two months.. so interesting and informative discussions
Keep it up Paul
Quite an insightful and respectful discussion among two contemporary Muslim scholars who hold views that aren't entirely aligned with one another. Eid Mubarak to all!
Quite a delusional discussion. Words from a devil. Akyol is not a Muslim scholar. He is a liberal devil.
Mr. Akyol is not a scholar; he's a journalist.
Thank you, Paul, for hosting this conversation. Excellent discussion on a very important topic. You're a one man army. Blessed Eid to you. :)
Eid Mubarak to you and your everyone watching this channel.
thanks mr paul for this lo ely conversation your doing so much to the muslim community may allah bless you 🙏
tqvm for 2 hours video with 2 distinguished guests bro paul..its been amazing to listen to them again..wishing all a happy aidiladha ❤😁
Excellent conversation brother Paul, we need more line this. Jazak Allahu Khairan, Eid Mubarak to you all these in the UK
It's not excellent conversation. It's a complete misguidance. Akyol is a devil. He should be kicked out of any Muslim discussion panel. A devil worshiper.
Brother Paul... You are an absolute legend to do this... This is Awesome!
May Allah bless you and this channel even more! Also, Eid Mubarak :)
Thank you Paul for beautiful and graceful presentation, as always.
Adha Mubarak.
Wow this podcast was a roller coaster ride through islamic theology i really appreciate the effort Mr. Paul for bringing these two scholars together.
One word : thrilling. جزاكم الله خيرا
Materialistically speaking, never in terms of morality.
Can we really say that? Unfortunately many muslim countries from Pakistan to Mali to Egypt, the poor and weak in society are completely at the mercy of the ‘haves’. Rule of law in many places (with the gulf a notable exception) is almost non existent. This can be seen in the west too but not nearly to the same degree.
@@pktank1 Oh, I am not defending any particular country or regime, whether in the West or East. It is stated in the Qur'an Surah 5, that those who do not rule with God's laws are the oppressors. Pakistan, Mali, Egypt, I mean they hardly rule with God's laws, most of these countries were founded after colonialism, now ruled by remnants of colonial times, hardly representing Islam.
I think what Mustafa Akuyol has tried to do in his book is not something new and the criticism from Dr. Ali is nothing new too. Fazlur Rehmanit's book "Islam and Modernity" Was a pioneering study in this tradition and the reaction to this book from the traditional muslim scholars set a kind of trend in this respect. What we must take from this is that endeavours like this are a healthy sign for the entire muslim world and we must value it.
My take away messagea from discussion, both are 'right'.
Yes alGhazali's 'occasionalism' did influence Muslim mass world-view/thinking (scholars too), hence Islamic 'philosophy' scholars were out of favor and died out after that. Of course this cannot (difficult) to be prove empirically, but as someone brought up and travel around in Islamic world, i know how the average Muslim person view the world (which in turns reflect how our ustaz teach us).
But this was not at all alGhazali's fault, for how the Muslim understand alGhazali's 'occasionalism' is different and wrongly from what alGhazali proposed. The true intention of occasionalism is around theology issues, as God is the Sustainer of the universe, not a contention of natural law of the world.
And I think, occasionalism is the 'correct' view, of how traditional muslim should view our world. Sadly, most Muslim misunderstood alGhazali's works.
how does the average Muslim view the world?
As someone brought up and traveled around the Islamic world I don't see this wrong "occasionalism" you mention rather the opposite almost all Muslim parents want their kids to grow up and be doctors or engineers and they don't view these kinds of fields as unimportant or negatively.
I respect Mustafa Akyol a lot but I think he got it completely wrong on this one, the association he's trying to make does not reflect on the broader Muslim world one bit.
I loved this video because it’s sparking an important discussion that has been missing from the islamic discourse.
It would be nice to widen these discussions to include all groups like sufis-atharis- salafis- wahhabis.
Issues like : Takfir- Ta’weel- calling on dead people- divine attributes and shape of islamic governance are at the core of contention.
The Ummah is fragmented as a result of theological and political reasons and unless these issues are addressed then the Ummah will have no hope.
Great discussion. Muslim scholars should be able have civil discussion between different school of thoughts like this rather than issuing thakfir behind the desk.
Quality discussion MashAllah. May Allah reward you brother Paul for providing this and for letting the discussion go on with out intervening despite your knowledge MashAllah.
mashallah very impressed with this discussion. both "opponents" for what of a better word, were still respectfully and extremely honest in how they conducted themselves and towards the counterpart
Many turning points but perhaps the most important was in 1492 with the fall of Granada and the Beginnings of colonialism. 1500's King Henry 8th, church of England reformation. Printing press takes hold of society. King James Bible, 1611. Newton and scientific age of reason. Bank of England formed, 1694. 1800's Industrialisation takes hold. Steam engines. Factories. Fossil fuels. WW1, spanish flu, passport system formed. WW2. Bretton Woods. 1971, US comes off gold standard. Petrodollar FIAT money credit expansion. 2020, beginnings of reset to digital currency passport social credit system via internet of things. Orwellian Brave new world. Complete detachment from spirituality and the land. Arrival of the digital god/singularity/anti christ. All seeded in RIBA and the weaponisation of nature aka greed, the antithesis of god consciousness as old as ancient Egypt and Babylon.
Wow you seems know history well, may i know your reference so I can deep learning about your summary?
@@ridwanarifien1628 Apologies for late reply. I have been on a 10 day internet fast!
Sure, to understand better the history of money/finance/usury, I recommend Anthony Migchels. To understand from a religious perspective, I think blogging theology and lets talk religion are two superb resources so you're in the right place already.
Wow. From my research I agree with you. Very good summary.
Awesome discussion. I started listening to this and then I stopped. I went out and got the book read it and rewatched the discussion. The book is extremely well documented and Doctor Ali is only going to make Mustafa Aykol stronger in his delivery of his scholarship. Both of them will benefit from this discussion and I believe Dr Ali has already done so. This is not going away. Young Muslims in the west as well as converts have already agreed with a lot of Mustafa's arguments whether they say so openly or not. We need more of this!
Fascinating discussion more like this pplease, thanks Paul for your wonderful work.
all depends on how one defines “fell behind”
True and I feel he means Morally but that would be a mistake bc our Morality is from Allah, that simple
@@homtanks7259 Yea exactly. I didn't really watch it to be honest I assumed they were discussing technologically etc. The West is in a very bad way, all the glitz and glamour but no morality, most western countries are so far in debt because of Riba and so are their citizens. Mortgages through the roof.
@@lorenzomuhammad1715 👍🏻
Are you serious? It fell behind technologically, financially, academically, and politically.
@@ericpowell4350 not everything is as it seems on the surface. Try to think with more than what the world has taught you and you will decipher what I was referring to.
Thank you sheikh Paul Williams for making them define the concepts
I just started watching and I love this format already.
The Muslim civilisation became too decadent and relaxed too much. They failed to continue training men and women in how to defend themselves.
The main reason is that they abandoned the Quran. They failed to grasp a universal concept that Allah swt gives us in the Quran, i.e
We have made you into nations that you may each, keep each other in check. Knowing this to be the case, it is paramount that a nation should not get themselves into a quagmire and forget that they could easily be made to be subordinate to another nation.
The muslim civilisation also abandoned Deen Islam for Mazhab-Islam. They allowed their Priests and Mullahs to gain power and influence and slowly the Deen of Allah changed.
They abandoned jihad and started to fight over what they already had
Excellent analysis. Have you heard of Dr Israar Ahmed? He was far ahead of his time in his analysis of this.
By making Islam a madhab ( religion) it becomes controllable for political agendas, like greed or power etc.
@@Ashleii
Hi.
Dr Israr Ahmed was indeed a great person and his thoughts were ahead of his time.
Thanks for your kind reply.
Very refreshing to see someone suggest to look with an open mind. This is what we need; civil discussion. Not branding everyone who don't think the way you do kafir. Insallah in time the narrow minded extremists will lose power and the world will understand true Islam. The Islam that accepts not discriminates while not comprimising core beliefs
I don't know Abdullah bin Hamid, but I can tell you Mustafa Akyol's work is mainly flawed and seems to ponder to the western audience.
Eid Mubarak Paul. JazakaAllahu khayr.
A different format but I loved it .. more of it please jzk
Since when do we reform Islaam to make Islaam palatable for those who struggle with the usool and the waajibaat. This is what the Christians and Jews have done and continue upon; they made religion submissive to them. At that point you can't call Islaam submission to the will of Allah ypon Tawheed and Sunnah, it would submission to the people who want to reform Islaam.
Beautiful discussion. Loved it brother Paul
Eid Mubarak brother Paul
Excellent conversation
Whenever a civilization becomes complicit and arrogant as a result of its own accomplishments it becomes susceptible to being defeated from where they least expect. You could say that of the world powers now but I would also apply the same rule to Islamic dynasties in the past. When they where great they where truly great, but when their leaders became arrogant and developed and inherent sense of superiority, they lost touch with reality and became very susceptible to defeat by outer forces. However, such as in the case of the Mongols, many of the foreign invaders (who were initially cruel in their own right) found the true meaning of Islam and I would argue in some cases became better Muslims than the native one’s before them. For me it just goes to show that no one is “above” the need for humility and that the Quran doesn’t say “Allah is on the side of the Muslims”. It says Allah is on the side of the just. If Muslim countries want to be great again they need to stay actually doing things according to what God values-not their own personal impulses.
There is a reason why God tells us in Surah “Inshirah”: “when you are free still labor hard.”
God never tells us to whine like children and act like victims while criticizing everyone except for oneself. Group narcissism permits that-not God.
This is a point that I feel Muslims who are what you might call more “modern” such as brother Aykol, are very frank about. While I personally totally commend the neo-traditional approach, I for one am very tired of people who call themselves “traditionalists” but do nothing other than blame Salafi’s for the all the worlds problems and merely give the tradition lip service.
Also if you want my opinion-the age of Caliphate is over and it’s never coming back. The best we can do now is just focus on moral refinement and bringing love and beauty to whatever society we happen to live in.
the age of the caliphate is only over because Muslims themselves stopped wanting it. Had Muslims from Morroco to India and East Asia wanted a united Muslim polity, then we would have it. Rather we have embraced ideas of state based on things like ethnicity and nationality. A Caliphate is an eventuality of Islam being followed and if the time is not right to do that, then the least we can do is try to move closer to it and move our countries closer together militarily, politically, diplomatically, economically etc.
@@lastword8783 Very true.
Also another thought just came to my mind: during the era of the early Islamic conquests, there was overall a higher level of freedom of religion for Christians and Jews because prior to the Muslim conquests minority Christian sects had been persecuted by the one’s in power. Then Islam came and gave them all equal rights provided they paid taxes to the Muslim state and gave the Caliphs their loyalty. However nowadays we have many different kinds of Muslims at odds with one another given their diverse visions for the state of the Ummah and what defines the “real Islam”. Therefore what is the ultimate “orthodoxy” to unify us know? Each group will claim “orthodoxy” for themselves given their own methodologies and proofs-but that will realistically only create further damage since as Aykol said-everyone is “orthodox” in their own minds. For this reason we might say that the quietist method which seeks to refer things only to God in the hereafter is the only logical answer.
@@ameenmakanvand868 No worries, my point was that Muslims should not stop wanting and striving towards a Caliphate.
quran states in you were bad acting to the people they would leave you
The problem with Muslims is the contrast between their beliefs and their work. The first commandment of the Quran was read and that means read everything in the world in the name of Allah Read the laws created by Allah, learn the laws that nature has set, if Muslims did this, they would make scientific and technological development. Muslims only recited the Qur'an with their tongue, but they did not carry the Qur'an into their lives, considering wearing a turban and a robe and growing a beard is Muslim.
Love your channel and your passion for intellectual debate in the Islamic realm!
This is such a nice discussion. 😃👍
My view is that the growth of the Muslim Ummah of Nabi Muhammad Sa’s came to a halt at least 5-6 centuries back when it reached the stage of adolescence because of the ghafla that engulfed ulumah. They looked outside of the Quran for solutions to worldly challenges and were dependent on other’s ilm that had sprung up during the fast growing initial stages.
Wherever they would've looked, it would've turned out exactly the same as, because they no direct or indirect connections to Nabiyyu-LLaahi, they were making up everything just as other worldly were!
Why don't liberal Muslims understand Islam is complete and does not need to be liberalised?
It was a brilliant idea to structure this podcast with this peer review dynamic.....
Thank you Paul for this channel and this video. I'm a little bit upset you didn't have much input in this discussion.
Muslims fell when they stopped practicing Islam properly. It's time to return to the roots, to reunite the Muslim countries - from their fractured state - into one strong nation!
Muslims fell when they abandoned the Quran & Sunnah
If majority audience is non Muslims then is it wise to hand on a platter issues that first need to be discussed and reach a consensus by the Muslim community first. Otherwise it becomes a weapon for non Muslims to add to their propaganda.
Thanks Paul
Great conversation!
Thank you for hosting this discussion, Paul. I read Mr. Akyol’s book a few months ago and couldn’t understand his beef with Ashaarism, or why he has such a deterministic view of it. He raises important questions that warrant discussion, like free will and religious freedom, but I think he misses on his proposed answers to those questions. Thank you for this Eid gift!!!
Thank you Paul & thank you scholars for sharing views. We are all ‘seekers of truth’ first and foremost no matter what that ‘truth’ might be & how uncomfortable. Perhaps the ‘straight path’ includes aspects & approaches of both these scholars (and others) the reality is we all need to be a little more open minded and self-critical. Eid Mubarak to all.
wow the centuries old ashari and mutazalite debate still ongoing... thanks to both these individuals I'm enlightened...
"Mongols.....Crusaders.....Colonization"
I listened to Reopening Muslim minds as an audio book. The book brings up some very interesting points esp related to history of Muslim orthodoxy. Highly recommended
Would you recommend the book as a good read for a Christian believer? I'm not Muslim but I respect Muslims. Peace
@@johnbrzykcy3076 For beginners I would recommend ‘Secrets of Divine Love’
The reasons for the cultural backwardness of the Muslims over time:
1. The fall of the Abbasid state from the Mongols, the weakening of the Islamic state, and the slaves (Mamluks) became rulers over Muslims. (Slaves do not make a civilization) The Mamluk state continued for several centuries to rule the Muslims.
2. The Ottoman occupation of the Arab countries, which lasted for centuries, was a problem for the destruction of the great civilization in the Islamic nation, because the Ottoman state did not care about education or support for scientific research, but rather the destruction of education and the spread of illiteracy among the Arabs.
So that the Arabs do not advance and expel the Ottomans from their country, there are many references to Arab books on the role of the Ottomans in destroying education in the Arab world, even in the time of the Ottoman Empire, the printing of books was forbidden among Muslims and the Jews were allowed to print books!
(The establishment of the Arab state was a revival in the education of Arabs again after the Ottoman colonialism)
Even Western colonialism built schools and educating the Arabs, and this was not done by the Ottomans.
When I talk about the Ottomans, I'm talking about a government, not a race.
3. The stage of Western colonialism, although it did some good things, was colonization, occupation, and an attempt to destroy the Islamic culture in all its aspects and steal the wealth of the Islamic nation. Therefore, the Arabs and Muslims suffered from civil wars with the Western colonialists, and this caused the killing of many lives and material losses.. It was a period of Destructive for the Arabs after the destruction of the Arabs by the Ottomans, and it was one of the reasons for the division of the Arabs into states after they were one Islamic nation
Because one of the factors of the strength of Islamic civilization in the Umayyad and Abbasid states is the cultural and civilizational integration between all cultures within the Islamic Caliphate
One of the major projects of the Umayyad dynasty was the translation of science into Arabic
The Abbasid state carried out the Dar al-Hikma project in Baghdad and because of it the Islamic Renaissance appeared
4. The current era: It is after the League of Nations project to the Security Council, whose policies are controlled by 5 colonial countries that have a dark history with Muslims, and these countries still interfere in the internal affairs of Islamic countries, and some of them are still colonizing some Islamic countries by stealing their treasures through their companies that practice What was the Western colonizer doing, but with government legislation that oppressed Muslims and strengthened the impact of these Western companies on the economies of Muslims?
The big question, when will Islamic civilization come back bright again?
It needs a political, security, cultural and scientific treatment that begins with
1 - The Turkish and Persian governments are convinced that the intervention in the Arab countries will not make them glory and expansion at the expense of the Arabs, but, on the contrary, a security and economic harm that affects the future of everyone, and instead they deal with the Arabs economically and security and in political, scientific, security and commercial partnerships as well. Western European countries do so that the peoples of the Islamic world interact for a prosperous future for all
2. Making a joint defense agreement between the Islamic countries to stop any western or eastern invasion projects in the Islamic countries because it is one of the causes of the civilizational backwardness of the Islamic nation.. who destroyed Iraq.. who destroyed Syria.. who destroyed Palestine etc..
Unifying the foreign policy of Islamic countries + a unified Islamic army like NATO... Agreement on joint projects in the field of scientific research
In large joint investment projects in the fields of education, health, technology, scientific research, partnership in military industrialization, etc., it is one of the important areas for creating a bright future for the Islamic nation.
The problems of the current civilization lag can be summarized in:
1. The regionally harmful ambitions of Iran, Turkey and Israel in the Arab countries, which caused anxiety and security instability for Arab countries and countries hostile to them.
2. Western and Eastern interventions by the colonizers of the great powers to try to impose their political and cultural agenda and stop the causes of the civilized growth of the Islamic Ummah as a whole
3. Some Muslim rulers are a major reason for the civilizational backwardness because of their inability to improve and develop the scientific centers in Islamic countries in all sectors due to leadership weakness and security challenges. Also, the Muslim individual is one of the reasons for the civilizational backwardness either for immigrants to the Western world who can change their peoples but prefer life in the world The West, while the Koreans and Japanese returned to their countries and led the industrial wealth.
Admitting our mistakes is the beginning of correction.
To be fair, islamic countries are not all bad. You still have strong family values, networking, solidarity, strong cultural bond. People always think about their role in society and how to contribute. What lacks in the islamic world is the ability to critically think and to understand that criticism is not an attack but rather an opposing perspective that always point to something that you usually miss to see.
I like where you said that "criticism is not an attack but rather an opposing perspective...." That's excellent. Thanks
What do you mean “critically think?”
Can you give a few examples in the different countries?
Do you mean the populous? Or the academics? Or the government?
Personally I would say critical thinking is part n parcel of Islamic theology. But without a doubt there is stagnation in Muslim countries
But I would say that colonialism and then the post colonial poverty / financial slavery, and constant western interference has resulted in most people just surviving. It’s impossible to progress when there is constant turmoil in your country
But still we need to turn inwards to unity first to fight this imperialism.
If the Quran is perfect- there is no room to “criticize” it.
Turn your critical thinking towards liberalism & all the other man made ideologies.
We don't need progressive values if that is what you imply by critical thinking, Critical thinking is all fine as long as it's under the paradigm of Islam, otherwise even gender studies could be called critical thinking but it's in fact perverted thinking.
Let’s not make the same mistake as the early people of the book, and reform our religion for the gentilles. It was already made for them , the mission of Jesus (AS) was distorted by apostle Paul, in so that the message could reach an “urban” or “modern” Greek audience. This is evidenced by the obvious references to platonic philosophy and complicated koine Greek used in New Testament manuscripts. We don’t need to appeal , their is already many things in the tradition to aid us in living in the west
“I went to the West and saw Islam, but no Muslims; I got back to the East and saw Muslims, but not Islam.” -- Muhammad Abduh (1849-1905)
Abduh was a masonic modernist.
Most of what he says can be ignored.
@@cogthusiast1150 That does not mean that this particular quote is wrong.
@@maxwellmallery5638 it is wrong. Driven by inferiority complex
That is what our parents and teachers thought us when we where young
They fantasized about the west and western society.
Because of this lie we left Islam to pursue the western dream and to be excepted by the western man
Little did we know we will never be excepted into their society just because of our color.
They thought us to care only for ourselves just as the western man only thinks of himself, "just look how they have progressed by abandoning God's desire and caring about desires of man" they told us.
in this way we lost our families and real friends because we only cared for ourselves.
Our teachers thought us to be more like the western man, through this endeavor we lost our own culture and became the slaves of the west.
Today I tell you not to be fooled by these words to not end up as we have
Don't end up as me and my country men have ended up
Don't end up like Iran.
Abandon the Islam of the west because that is not Islam. search for the Islam that is in the Quran and the speech of the Prophet of God (pbuh). Don't forget about your culture and heritage.
Know that you are no lesser to the western man.
@@nimasws4594 What if your a Muslim revert who is from the West. Islam has no skin color or culture. Islam is Islam.
Great discussion, please consider going a level higher.
In the narrative of this descension, the weakness was attributed to flaws. Please also consider the loss of good factors which were once embraced. By studying good examples such as the very golden age of Andalusia, we can find what strengths they had and by losing these strengths, weakness spread.
You may start by studying the effect of the following factors:
1. Fairness,
2. Diversity, and
3. Creating opportunities.
Early Andalusians enjoyed fair and novel legislations and much effort was directed in creating new opportunities such as creating market for dried produce and advancing irrigation.
Eid Mubarak Paul!
Eid Mubarak everyone
Lovely brother Paul, JaskaAllah khair.
Wow! a real modern day self-assumed mutazila! No too many of those! May Allah reward him for the good he did and may He guide to the real path and truth of Sunni traditional islam and away from mutazilism and may Allah bless and reward Brother Ali, he is a true gem! Thanks for making this happen, Paul!
Paul seriously how many ads are you putting in these videos?! It’s getting riduclous you’ve just lost yourself a subscriber
Imam Shafi loved Geometry. He said it causes exactness in judgement.
Qazi Abu Bakr ibn Arabi learned all books of Euclid at an early age
This is just for information
Amazing discussion. Only you could make this happen Paul. Mashallah.
Jazakumullahukhairan Br. Paul for this amazing video.
Holy Quran 48:18
------------------
۞ لَّقَدْ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ يُبَايِعُونَكَ تَحْتَ الشَّجَرَةِ فَعَلِمَ مَا فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ فَأَنزَلَ السَّكِينَةَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَثَابَهُمْ فَتْحًا قَرِيبًا
Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest
Dear Sir; Mustafa Akyol is intergrated with The Group " Fetö", as u know this organisation is agains the Muslims and act like Muslims, therefore i warn u to be more carefull about who is a muslim or not; i know u are a good Moslem, but there are so many Munafikuns out there!
And he was friends with Adnan Oktar. This man is dangerous.
Was expecting a podcast about how Muslim civ fall behind the west and how to overcome it , instead got modernist Vs Orthodox conversation.
This discussion made me feel good
Very nice
Akyol is essentially a secularist.
Unfortunately may Allah guide him and us.
Wow... I really like the title of Mustafa Akyol's book - "Reopening Muslim Minds: a Return to Reason, Freedom and Tolerance." Would you recommend the book as a good read for a Christian believer? Peace
Salam John
I have this video talking about the nature of God and Jesus (peace be upon him) in the bible:
ruclips.net/video/ExL30-ZpBC4/видео.html
What do you think about it?
I pray to our Creator the One True God of The Messiah Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them both) to guide us to the truth. Amen
Why does Mustafa Akyol sounds like a quranist?
You can say he is a Scriptualist as opposed to a Traditionalist. Unlike Scriptualists, the Quranists reject Hadiths entirely. On the other hand, Scriptualists acknowledge Hadiths but treat them skeptically, so they prioritize the Quran over the Hadiths. Traditionalists generally prioritize the Hadiths over the Quran.
@@dinomar7818 "Traditionalists generally prioritize Hadith over Quran" Can you please clarify this statement, to what group do you refer by Traditionalists? Can you give an example where a Traditional school prioritized Hadith over Quran? My understanding is that all mainstream Muslim schools of thought establish the superiority of Quran over Hadith, as a rule.
@@husamabou-shaar9740 When I say Traditionalists, I meant mainstream Sunnis: Maturidi-Hanafis, Ash'ari-Malikis and Ash'ari-Shafi'is. Sunnis do not say the Quran is superior to Hadiths because both are revelation from God with equal authority. Nonetheless, the reliability of the Quran is higher, while the Hadith have varient strengths. Though, mass transmitted hadiths are also equally certain like the Quran.
The Quran is regarded with more respect because both its words and meanings are attributed to God and due to its liturgical function. Hadith do not have the same function, but its meanings are also attributed to God, so one cannot say Hadiths are inferior. That said, the words of Hadith are attributed to the Prophet pbuh. So, to be more percise, the Quran is more sacred, but not superior to Hadiths.
Since the Quran must be respected, and also because its principles are more general, jurists often begin with citing the relevant verses when adressing a certain issue. But, since the hadiths are more detailed and specific, it's all about hadiths afterwards. Fiqh is pretty much codified hadiths.
The Hanafis and Malikis have also found it acceptable for a mass transmitted hadith to abrogate a verse, but the Shafi'is refused. Regardless, a special rule always repeals or takes priority over a general rule. This is a legal and a logical principle found in Sunni fiqh and all legal traditions. So the Traditionalists, i.e. Sunnis, give more importance to hadiths and attention.
The Hanbalis are also Sunni, generally speaking, and give even more importance to hadiths than the other three schools. The problem with Hanbalis is that sometimes they tend to be heterodox or extreme. More importantly, they sometimes adopt anthropomorphic beliefs which caused a lot of historical clashes and controversies, unfortunately. This caused them to become a minority school, even less than the Shi'is.
@@dinomar7818 I respectfully disagree with your understanding, I still maintain that all mainstream Muslim schools maintain the superiority of Quran over Hadith, including of course Sunnis:
1. Quran is the literal word of God, reciting it is considered an act of worship.
2. Quran is preserved word for word according to the 7 Ahruf, which Muslims believe they were all revealed on prophet Mohammed SAW. i.e. Muslims ponder upon the fabric of Quran text and form, and extract meaning from the way it is constructed, because we all believe it is preserved word for word, not just meaning.
3. Hadith is transmitted by meaning, if you know about any major scholar who affirms that any Hadith is 100% the wording used by prophet Mohammed SAW, please let me know.
4. Belief in preservation of Quran is required simply because it is said so in Quran itself, on the other hand Belief in Hadith preservation is not even a thing as far as I know, on the contrary, Hadith science's whole goal is to classify Hadith authenticity, and clearly states there are many fabricated Hadith. In other words, Sunni and Shia Muslims agree there have been both active and accidental corruption of Hadith text attributed to prophet SAW, and they both agree it needs to be authenticated, what they might differ about is the details of the authentication process, which led to different collections of Hadith. On the other hand, there is only one version of Quran according to both Sunnis and Shias, no authentication effort was ever done because none was required in the first place.
5. Even if we know for a fact that some Mutawater Hadith is 100% transmitted to us verbatim as prophet SAW said it, its literal value is not like Quran the words of God himself.
6. Saying that Sunnis relied heavily on Hadith for fiqh therefore they prioritize it over Quran implies a false premise, it implies that for a certain subject there are equally clear texts from Quran and Hadith on the subject at hand, and those texts contradict each other for a certain degree and scholars decided to favor Hadith. I am arguing that there is no such case, if you know of any example, please enlighten us.
7. The subject of abrogation is disputed, many scholars deny it completely.
Again, if you know of any example that supports your case, please mention it, no need to provide more theoretical statements.
@@dinomar7818 now u have created a new sect called scriptualist
Every Muslim countries law should be Qur'an and hadiths if you are truly Muslim it is simple and that is the ultimate justice do these people not understand that?
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
Mustafa Akyol is a senior fellow at the Cato Institute’s Center for Global Liberty and Prosperity, where he focuses on the intersection of public policy, Islam, and modernity. Since 2013, he has also been a frequent opinion writer for The New York Times,
“The Thinking Muslim,” a popular podcast, defined Akyol as “probably the most notable Muslim modernist and reformer.”
Sirs, it is very simple.
Rejection of everything not in the holy book, and of course intellect and hard work.
Akyol’s liberalism has destroyed the ummah. Its poison, disguised as a cure.
Tariq ibn Shihab reported: Umar ibn al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Verily, we were a disgraceful people and Allah honored us with Islam. If we seek honor from anything besides that with which Allah honored us, Allah will disgrace us.”
Source: al-Mustadrak ‘alá al-Ṣaḥīḥayn 207
Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani
Colonisation n collision of Al Saud n Abdul Ahad Wahab took Islamic open mindedness backward,every Conservative idea was associated with Islam. It trapped people in a box to think with emancipation. Things got politicised n took ideological shape., independent, intellectual thinking got curtailed.,hampering the overall creative process that is so very conducive for critical thinking.
Dr .Abdullah Ali Philly homegrown.
Subhaanallaah!
Assalaam alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakaatu
Please Paul, can you sort out the ads and where they come in the videos that are uploaded. I can never finish the wonderful discussions due to keep skipping the ads whilst working. Allah bless you.
Use an ad-blocking browser plugin. It's pretty effective in blocking unwanted ads.
@@GUULLIVER thank you. Anyone in particular you can recommend?
@@hamzawebb6188 If you are annoyed by youtube ads, then use "adblock for youtube", if you are annoyed by ads in websites in general, use Adguard. If you are annoyed by ads in both cases, use both. "adblock for youtube" won't work in websites in general, and I suspect Adguard isn't that effective in youtube. That's why I use both and I am happy with the results.
@@GUULLIVER thank you so much @Gulliver
Eid Adha Mubarak.
If it really fell behind...then you are at the core at its revival....
Really bro? You really took Mustafa akyol to the stage? Super disappointed since he does not have any credibility..
Is this dude a Quran only?
@@homtanks7259 The question should rather be: Is this guy even a muslim? Because all he does is talking nonsense about Islam, spreading falsehood and twisting the religion according to his own will. We shouldn‘t give men like him any attention.