I think World Tour was a great entry for newcomers, more so than something like Modern Controls, which (probably) hinder you in the end to transition over. Something like World Tour helps people to learn moves after another and different playstyles in a motivating way and this is one new example,if there's more to come, more new players will join the community, I'm sure about it.
I argue that it depends on the game, although that's only to what extent WT is better than MC for the specific purpose of making it *easier* to get into a game. For instance, in Granblue Versus Rising, the "modern input" setting only influences specials (aka skills) by replacing the traditional "attack type+directional input sequence" with "attack type+skill button+single directional input" at the cost of... 10% less damage I believe, and that damage reduction is only from neutral, not within combos. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I just read an article about modern controls in SF and, there, the difference between classic and modern is huge (20% less damage, some attacks are unusable, some combos are automated...). That said, there are people who simply can't physically do classic inputs. In my case, even though I would prefer to use classic controls because they feel more intuitive, I lack the dexterity and hand coordination to pull off a classic input in the middle of a combo, and it's not something I can change by just practising. So modern controls don't just make it easier to get into fighting games: for some, they make it *possible* . All in all, maybe modern inputs should be used only to remove execution barriers without automating anything, while other methods (World Tour-type tutorials for instance) would take care of teaching combos and decision making so that automation is not necessary?
@@lasselen9448 Yes, that's what I meant, drawing peeple in. In my experience the thing that keeps people from playing fighting games is the impression that it's too hard and a single player mode that let's them experience elements of fighting games without it beeing one can help a lot. Plus they did a great job incorperating a lot of lessons without them being obvious lessons and lets you play with different playstyles through the course of the game. It's a good direction for that and they should keep improving in that direction. That's why I think it does more to draw people in and fight the impression of the elitist core gamer image the fighting game community has for a lot of people that can't be easily convinced with words. I know what you mean and I think Granblue Fantasy Versus did the two control types a lot better than SF6 since you don't have to choose and can use them alternately within the same round. Rising on the other hand made the "classic" style unnecessary, so it's still better than have to choose before the game but a small downgrade to Versus, in my opinion. And you're of course right, it's good and necessary that something like that is there, it's sad if people don't want to pick up a genre of fear of beeing bad, that's what WT is for, but it's even worse when people want to play but have or got problems to use the controls, that's quite correct. That's why I referred to the point of drawing people in with WT and similar modes. And since I don't like chosing between control schemes or perspectives (first person / third person) within the same game, because they always have pros and cons and the devs should have focused on making the experience for one of them, I think Granblue does a better job in this category and their version should be the go to for controls, all in one without having to choose.
How to make learning a fighting game less scary? Developers need to make more intuitive, arcade-y games. Games in arcades were designed to hook people from the get-go, because if not, they go somewhere else.
The "Don't Get Hung Up On Your Ego" step could also be applied to not comparing yourself to others. I've put in a little bit of time into each Tekken game since Tekken 3, but usually not more than like 100 hours for each game. And now watching the Sajam Slam I'm seeing all these guys and gals come in that have never played fighting games before and just blow past me, at least in terms of rank. But it's not really constructive to compare myself to that, I'm on my own journey.
I’m definitely watching and trying to understand spacing in Tekken 8 right now and it’s so hard to know if it’ll hit or not. Also if I can react in time to my opponent seeming far but actually being in range. But in doing so I have landed some game winning scenarios off knowing the range and doing the unexpected. Don’t skip steps ya’ll it’ll pay off!
And also don't choose a character whose execution is going to frustrate you. I'm super old, so I started off playing the early KoF games. The execution in those games can be very strict. Playing Iori when I could only do his rekkas correctly about 1/3 of the time was a wall I should really have not been banging my head against.
I think the number of people sitting on the borderline going, “maybe if it was a little easier,” isn’t as big as people think it is. I’m pretty sure people either just like fighting games or they don’t.
Well, this should help and I don’t think it’s healthy to unlike LionOfJudah83 underneath me, pointed out whether sarcastically or not, that you need to play 24 hours a day as that’s just not true, you could only have 2 or 3 hours a day to commit to it and as long as you effectively train within that amount of time I think it’s still possible to get better without having to be in the game 24/7 without any other life responsibilities besides that just not being healthy for any individual to be on a video game 24/7.
Step one: get game Step two: spend multiple hours in training mode and watching RUclips videos. Step three: play game and lose Step four: repeat steps 2 and 3 over and over Step 5 realize it has been a year and you learned nothing and just developed a hatred for the genre you wanted to try. Step 6 give up and do somthing else.
Yo, straight up, that bit about not trying to get everything done upfront to avoid losing or failing spoke to me on a deep level, not just for the game but for life in general.
To get good at fighting games you need to not do anything else. No watching movies, no other video games, no spouse, etc. Just play it 24 hours a day. That's what it seems you need to do to get good at a fighting game.
What? Less scary than League of legends? Dota?, and all those other games that are as complex, games that scrubs decide to play anayway?, people are just scared of not having any teammates to blame for being bad, among other things ofcourse
Eh, I wouldn't say that. Some of the things that really scare people away is just the basic movement, how to fight and even do damage. League and Dota, while hard, you can deal damage or stun people easily and to do that, you just push one button to do said thing. When I first started playing fighting games, I couldn't even do a fireball input. This meant I have less options than my opponent when I try to play against other people, it's why I stopped so early when I was younger. It's also one of the reasons why Smash got so popular, not only did you play your favorite character, but you could play as them right away and do what you want to do.
@watchmesquatch I'm just being real here. It's like darksouls. People will get filtered by the game and leave. The difference is that fighting games is a pvp game first, and if you can't get enough new players on board, it's going to slowly die if there's only a small community of people playing. I think a lot of the games are doing pretty good at bringing new players in tbh me included.
Fortunately, I went into GBVRising with the following mentality: "I'm going to get destroyed anyway, so I'll just pick characters that look good and aren't too difficult to understand". I'm indeed getting destroyed, I don't know if I'm learning or not (or rather, I know my theory has improved but I forget most of it in an actual fight and my poor level of execution couldn't keep up anyway), but I'm having fun. As for combos, that's the part of tutorial videos where my mind goes blank. "Combo" isn't a concept in the game genres I usually play; unlike situational awareness and tactical choices. I also don't practice combos (yet) because what's the point if I can't get myself in a situation in which I can actually do that combo? Learn how to get your turn before you learn how to use your turn, I'd say.
making fighting games easier is a double edged sword. One one hand, it will bring new people to the scene, people buying the game and making the producers money. On the other, we're going to get cookie cutter moves/combos and no originality or personality.
i agree. gets people to buy the game but after a few months you're left with only the less casual and hardcore players who are stuck playing a game made to bring in new players.
agreed. and in the end, the people who really play the game longterm, have a worse experience and eventually move on to other games too. however, there is always a difference between unecessarily hard and hard in a way that makes sense. it is important that difficulty doesn't feel random and just hard for the sake of being it. also, things that are easy should be easy in a reasonable way that makes sense for the game. usually there is no need for 1 frame links as an requirement, to do a simple lll or mmm combo. atleast in anime fighters this is a basic thing you need most of the time. and by having this tiny thing as an auto combo, it will not do anything wrong with the game, as long as those kinds of gatlings make sense as a whole in this game. dbfz was actually a good example of how to give new players atleast something to work with, while actually enhancing the depth of the game for the more experienced players. all with the same auto combo system, but different usecases of it... but yes, they could have made hard link combos instead, get rid of the different tracking levels caused by different timings (air combos mostly) and maybe we would not even have those special grounded moves, that are part of the auto combos as well. so in the end, the issues are almost always the lack of communication what a game is all about, or what is in the minds of the devs and how the players understand it. the outcome of this decides what happens with games and playerbases. and those happening things ultimately form new concepts for fighting games, to make things better... recently, i can't name any bad fighting game that happened this way, but i really think games like guilty gear strive and tekken 8 suffered heavily from hit. it still can all be fixed and most likely will be at some point and those games are not bad anyways, but yeah... could also be more fun for many people, i believe. i mean, there is a reason why people go back to older games from time to time, or even most of the time.
@@gamersparadise743 well, it's mostly about how offense works in this game, how effective some easy things are and how stupid certain characters were at launch, although it's getting better right now. like having heat engagers that are armored, long reaching and forcing literally guess for game situations, other heavily overtuned neutral tools like azucena's pre patch while running 3,2 and just characters like victor in general, lol. so the thing with this game is, when you are ACTUALLY playing neutral, you are not only an experienced fighting game player, but also really good at tekken. otherwise you either do the same braindead neutral skip rushdown stuff over and over, or you are getting destroyed easily by other players doing it. but the easy part is, you don't have to play neutral to get kinda far in short time, if you keep doing that new easy stuff effectively. especially with those characters that are good at it. like there is no need to learn your full character and actually learn how to play tekken and matchups, when you can ignore all of this until you reach the point, where opponents actually got an understanding of the game. in tekken 7 and earlier however, the amount of tools you can just throw out without risk of losing anything is way less. also you are not "forced" to learn technical inputs in tekken 8 right from the start, since regular backdashing is way stronger than before and korean backdashing is less required + also not as effective, given how rushdown focused and linear the game currently is. also you have the option to do the easy input methods for some stuff at any point, if you want... but that last thing is not a negative point. and again, things tend to change for the better...
I recently joined my local fgc for SF6 I've made it to gold with Ken I just feel stuck this video helps some i love ken but when you aren't showing growth do you go play something else until you get as good as possible then come back or play both simultaneously? I know sounds silly but even neutral in Street Fighter and Tekken are two whole different things almost
If you can't do a Guilty gear super, then maybe fighters aren't for you. I've had to build up my muscle memory. You shouldn't be able to compete by playing smash bros.
Pick a character you dont mind losing with specifically. Its hard to feel like chars are fun or who you have the most fun with. The char you want to just play win or lose is a more defining choice.
I have a method of showing people different “levels” for a character. Level 1 is like have a basic bnb and the good normals to abuse. Then add on for the next levels so people have a clear vision of what the next level looks like.
It doesnt need to be easier. Not all hobbies are easy to learn. Like skateboarding. Hard learning curves arent for everyone. Stop ruining things in order to include lazy people.
I think World Tour was a great entry for newcomers, more so than something like Modern Controls, which (probably) hinder you in the end to transition over.
Something like World Tour helps people to learn moves after another and different playstyles in a motivating way and this is one new example,if there's more to come, more new players will join the community, I'm sure about it.
I argue that it depends on the game, although that's only to what extent WT is better than MC for the specific purpose of making it *easier* to get into a game.
For instance, in Granblue Versus Rising, the "modern input" setting only influences specials (aka skills) by replacing the traditional "attack type+directional input sequence" with "attack type+skill button+single directional input" at the cost of... 10% less damage I believe, and that damage reduction is only from neutral, not within combos. On the opposite side of the spectrum, I just read an article about modern controls in SF and, there, the difference between classic and modern is huge (20% less damage, some attacks are unusable, some combos are automated...).
That said, there are people who simply can't physically do classic inputs. In my case, even though I would prefer to use classic controls because they feel more intuitive, I lack the dexterity and hand coordination to pull off a classic input in the middle of a combo, and it's not something I can change by just practising. So modern controls don't just make it easier to get into fighting games: for some, they make it *possible* .
All in all, maybe modern inputs should be used only to remove execution barriers without automating anything, while other methods (World Tour-type tutorials for instance) would take care of teaching combos and decision making so that automation is not necessary?
@@lasselen9448 Yes, that's what I meant, drawing peeple in. In my experience the thing that keeps people from playing fighting games is the impression that it's too hard and a single player mode that let's them experience elements of fighting games without it beeing one can help a lot.
Plus they did a great job incorperating a lot of lessons without them being obvious lessons and lets you play with different playstyles through the course of the game. It's a good direction for that and they should keep improving in that direction.
That's why I think it does more to draw people in and fight the impression of the elitist core gamer image the fighting game community has for a lot of people that can't be easily convinced with words.
I know what you mean and I think Granblue Fantasy Versus did the two control types a lot better than SF6 since you don't have to choose and can use them alternately within the same round. Rising on the other hand made the "classic" style unnecessary, so it's still better than have to choose before the game but a small downgrade to Versus, in my opinion.
And you're of course right, it's good and necessary that something like that is there, it's sad if people don't want to pick up a genre of fear of beeing bad, that's what WT is for, but it's even worse when people want to play but have or got problems to use the controls, that's quite correct.
That's why I referred to the point of drawing people in with WT and similar modes.
And since I don't like chosing between control schemes or perspectives (first person / third person) within the same game, because they always have pros and cons and the devs should have focused on making the experience for one of them, I think Granblue does a better job in this category and their version should be the go to for controls, all in one without having to choose.
“Lost in the sauce” lol
How to make learning a fighting game less scary? Developers need to make more intuitive, arcade-y games. Games in arcades were designed to hook people from the get-go, because if not, they go somewhere else.
The "Don't Get Hung Up On Your Ego" step could also be applied to not comparing yourself to others. I've put in a little bit of time into each Tekken game since Tekken 3, but usually not more than like 100 hours for each game. And now watching the Sajam Slam I'm seeing all these guys and gals come in that have never played fighting games before and just blow past me, at least in terms of rank. But it's not really constructive to compare myself to that, I'm on my own journey.
1min of the video and the first step is already hard af for begginers 😂😂😂
I’m definitely watching and trying to understand spacing in Tekken 8 right now and it’s so hard to know if it’ll hit or not. Also if I can react in time to my opponent seeming far but actually being in range.
But in doing so I have landed some game winning scenarios off knowing the range and doing the unexpected.
Don’t skip steps ya’ll it’ll pay off!
And also don't choose a character whose execution is going to frustrate you.
I'm super old, so I started off playing the early KoF games. The execution in those games can be very strict. Playing Iori when I could only do his rekkas correctly about 1/3 of the time was a wall I should really have not been banging my head against.
I think the number of people sitting on the borderline going, “maybe if it was a little easier,” isn’t as big as people think it is. I’m pretty sure people either just like fighting games or they don’t.
And the reasons why they don't? I'm pretty sure difficulty is one of them. Otherwise, how are the newer fighting games getting so many newer players
@@dragonic22 Because if they gave a shit they could figure out even the most complicated fighting game. But most of them aren’t even that hard.
@@dragonic22 L
@@cylondorado4582 But then why do they care now, and not before? What changed?
@@dragonic22 marketing, marketing changed
Make a 3rd person giant ass open world RPG that's actually secretly a tutorial, and call it World Tour.
Wait...
World Tour is trash.
@@watchmesquatch you are either smoking rocks or watch DSP.
World Tour is the most brilliant single player fighting game mode ever made.
@@actuallynotsteve it's horribly boring.
Well, this should help and I don’t think it’s healthy to unlike LionOfJudah83 underneath me, pointed out whether sarcastically or not, that you need to play 24 hours a day as that’s just not true, you could only have 2 or 3 hours a day to commit to it and as long as you effectively train within that amount of time I think it’s still possible to get better without having to be in the game 24/7 without any other life responsibilities besides that just not being healthy for any individual to be on a video game 24/7.
Step one: get game
Step two: spend multiple hours in training mode and watching RUclips videos.
Step three: play game and lose
Step four: repeat steps 2 and 3 over and over
Step 5 realize it has been a year and you learned nothing and just developed a hatred for the genre you wanted to try.
Step 6 give up and do somthing else.
Yo, straight up, that bit about not trying to get everything done upfront to avoid losing or failing spoke to me on a deep level, not just for the game but for life in general.
"Find a character that suits what you like" immediately pans to juri feet
I don't need spacing. I have drive rush and heat engage.
To get good at fighting games you need to not do anything else. No watching movies, no other video games, no spouse, etc. Just play it 24 hours a day. That's what it seems you need to do to get good at a fighting game.
What? Less scary than League of legends? Dota?, and all those other games that are as complex, games that scrubs decide to play anayway?, people are just scared of not having any teammates to blame for being bad, among other things ofcourse
Eh, I wouldn't say that. Some of the things that really scare people away is just the basic movement, how to fight and even do damage. League and Dota, while hard, you can deal damage or stun people easily and to do that, you just push one button to do said thing. When I first started playing fighting games, I couldn't even do a fireball input. This meant I have less options than my opponent when I try to play against other people, it's why I stopped so early when I was younger. It's also one of the reasons why Smash got so popular, not only did you play your favorite character, but you could play as them right away and do what you want to do.
@@definitelynotcheng1083 so learn it. Don't ask for it to ne easier. Just fkin learn it. People love ruining things just to include lazy bums.
@watchmesquatch I'm just being real here. It's like darksouls. People will get filtered by the game and leave. The difference is that fighting games is a pvp game first, and if you can't get enough new players on board, it's going to slowly die if there's only a small community of people playing. I think a lot of the games are doing pretty good at bringing new players in tbh me included.
@@definitelynotcheng1083 cool story. Still, we don't want lazy bums in the community who just wanna win by mashing.
Fortunately, I went into GBVRising with the following mentality: "I'm going to get destroyed anyway, so I'll just pick characters that look good and aren't too difficult to understand". I'm indeed getting destroyed, I don't know if I'm learning or not (or rather, I know my theory has improved but I forget most of it in an actual fight and my poor level of execution couldn't keep up anyway), but I'm having fun.
As for combos, that's the part of tutorial videos where my mind goes blank. "Combo" isn't a concept in the game genres I usually play; unlike situational awareness and tactical choices. I also don't practice combos (yet) because what's the point if I can't get myself in a situation in which I can actually do that combo? Learn how to get your turn before you learn how to use your turn, I'd say.
making fighting games easier is a double edged sword. One one hand, it will bring new people to the scene, people buying the game and making the producers money. On the other, we're going to get cookie cutter moves/combos and no originality or personality.
So do you bring in new people or gatekeep the game?
i agree. gets people to buy the game but after a few months you're left with only the less casual and hardcore players who are stuck playing a game made to bring in new players.
agreed. and in the end, the people who really play the game longterm, have a worse experience and eventually move on to other games too. however, there is always a difference between unecessarily hard and hard in a way that makes sense. it is important that difficulty doesn't feel random and just hard for the sake of being it. also, things that are easy should be easy in a reasonable way that makes sense for the game.
usually there is no need for 1 frame links as an requirement, to do a simple lll or mmm combo. atleast in anime fighters this is a basic thing you need most of the time. and by having this tiny thing as an auto combo, it will not do anything wrong with the game, as long as those kinds of gatlings make sense as a whole in this game.
dbfz was actually a good example of how to give new players atleast something to work with, while actually enhancing the depth of the game for the more experienced players. all with the same auto combo system, but different usecases of it...
but yes, they could have made hard link combos instead, get rid of the different tracking levels caused by different timings (air combos mostly) and maybe we would not even have those special grounded moves, that are part of the auto combos as well.
so in the end, the issues are almost always the lack of communication what a game is all about, or what is in the minds of the devs and how the players understand it. the outcome of this decides what happens with games and playerbases. and those happening things ultimately form new concepts for fighting games, to make things better... recently, i can't name any bad fighting game that happened this way, but i really think games like guilty gear strive and tekken 8 suffered heavily from hit. it still can all be fixed and most likely will be at some point and those games are not bad anyways, but yeah... could also be more fun for many people, i believe. i mean, there is a reason why people go back to older games from time to time, or even most of the time.
@@soramercury7074 what have they made easier in tekken 8 compared to the older ones? i am new to that game
@@gamersparadise743 well, it's mostly about how offense works in this game, how effective some easy things are and how stupid certain characters were at launch, although it's getting better right now.
like having heat engagers that are armored, long reaching and forcing literally guess for game situations, other heavily overtuned neutral tools like azucena's pre patch while running 3,2 and just characters like victor in general, lol.
so the thing with this game is, when you are ACTUALLY playing neutral, you are not only an experienced fighting game player, but also really good at tekken. otherwise you either do the same braindead neutral skip rushdown stuff over and over, or you are getting destroyed easily by other players doing it. but the easy part is, you don't have to play neutral to get kinda far in short time, if you keep doing that new easy stuff effectively. especially with those characters that are good at it. like there is no need to learn your full character and actually learn how to play tekken and matchups, when you can ignore all of this until you reach the point, where opponents actually got an understanding of the game.
in tekken 7 and earlier however, the amount of tools you can just throw out without risk of losing anything is way less. also you are not "forced" to learn technical inputs in tekken 8 right from the start, since regular backdashing is way stronger than before and korean backdashing is less required + also not as effective, given how rushdown focused and linear the game currently is.
also you have the option to do the easy input methods for some stuff at any point, if you want... but that last thing is not a negative point.
and again, things tend to change for the better...
I recently joined my local fgc for SF6 I've made it to gold with Ken I just feel stuck this video helps some i love ken but when you aren't showing growth do you go play something else until you get as good as possible then come back or play both simultaneously? I know sounds silly but even neutral in Street Fighter and Tekken are two whole different things almost
If you can't do a Guilty gear super, then maybe fighters aren't for you. I've had to build up my muscle memory. You shouldn't be able to compete by playing smash bros.
Pick a character you dont mind losing with specifically. Its hard to feel like chars are fun or who you have the most fun with. The char you want to just play win or lose is a more defining choice.
I have a method of showing people different “levels” for a character. Level 1 is like have a basic bnb and the good normals to abuse. Then add on for the next levels so people have a clear vision of what the next level looks like.
Commenting on every video requesting Makoto’s BBCF combo trials, video 102.
video came out 38 minutes ago, your comment posted 39 minutes ago. How tf?
The opening line is funny to me because I come from the 2.5d abomination that is pokken
Outside of the BNB combo stuff embrace getting hit bc that is
part of the game and force yourself to play up close.
I love the content on this channel, alot of fun topics. Great guests as well keep it up!
Diaphone is such a good teacher
Thanks 🎉
I was gunna make a troll comment right away because these types of videos usually give generic advice, but that was actually a good discussion.
Hot take: Fighting games should be a game mode, not the main game.
Gimme an example. A fighting game should be a game mode of what kind of game?
@@dragonic22 I mean every game that is mainly a pve game and has a pvp mode is an example of that.
@@nodnoh-2174 👎👎👎
@watchmesquatch when it happens I want you to remember my comment.
@@nodnoh-2174 I meant like a tradditional fighting game. I don't count stuff like Elden Ring's pvp
It doesnt need to be easier. Not all hobbies are easy to learn. Like skateboarding. Hard learning curves arent for everyone. Stop ruining things in order to include lazy people.