Economist reacts to Keir Starmer's economic proposals | Torsten Bell interview
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- Опубликовано: 10 окт 2023
- Chief Executive of the Resolution Foundation Torsten Bell, reacts to leader of the Labour Party Keir Starmer's conference speech.
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I see Torsten, I click.
He is so good and needs to be listened to much more
We must get the Tories out. Growth will not be through them. I have had enough of them. They seriously need investigated.
Growth is fine... unless it's financed by debt...
Like being employed to dig a hole... it's fine... if you have a ladder to get out and go home at the end of the day.
The UK has £2.5 Trillion debt...
... it's like digging a 20ft deep hole, having a 10ft ladder, and digging deeper... don't do it!... you're in a hole you can't get out of...
@@andrewwalsh2755 do yourself a favour and learn some macroeconomics. Though economic growth is only needed because of the determination to maintain concentrated ownership and decision making within the economic system, and thus mask the resulting effects on labour of such an economy.
@@jgmediting7770 ... interesting proposition... I was merely saying that continuing national debt was dangerous and unnecessary (even if it does generate gdp growth)... and the former governer of BoE said as much in a recent interview...
@@andrewwalsh2755 I couldn’t care less what the governor of the Bank of England says. He doesn’t represent our interests, and has a very biased view and framing of economics.
Investment and growth is the historical way nations get out of debt, via increased tax receipts and inflation over time. Including britain in the past. Austerity is how nations get in more debt, as happened over the past 13 years as the elite lied to the nation to further their economic ideals. It’s the opposite of a private household or business. But to do it right is a threat to elite economic and political interests.
@@jgmediting7770 ... Now that is interesting... When you say Our Interests , who are You?... I don't wish to pry, of course, but are You a British middle income employed person, whose parents and grandparents are/were same?... or are You a Zionist Labour potential foreign investor?... etc ...
I'll assume you are the former: Your interests are a healthy environment and a sustainable economy, with secure food, water, energy supplies... affordable housing... public NHS and other services in a PR democratic system... don't You think?
I'll assume You do think that... and therefore... Kier Starmer and Zionist Labour... a party of lies, deceit, dishonesty and creeping fascism (Starmer has demonstrated these qualities already)... Is Not A Party For You...
With a national debt of £2.5 Trillion... and Liabilities approaching, if not already exceeding, Assets... I would suggest truth, honesty and reducing Liabilities is wiser than increasing Liabilities.
Borrowing-to-invest by competent, honest, people in a resource rich world can work..
Borrowing-to-invest by dishonest people, is a Ponzi Scheme in the making... in my opinion... So Don't Do It...
If You hadn't noticed, we are currently experiencing inflation... and people don't like it... They demand increased wages, and if they don't get it, those who can leave the UK, consider doing so.... That isn't good for You, or the UK national debt, which still needs servicing... 😱
PS... in modern times, all UK govts have borrowed-to-invest and created Magic Money, but, apart from a very small blip around year 2000, national debt has Never been reduced... (debt /gdp) has gone up and down, but actual national debt has risen to £2.5 Trillion... and it's that figure you have to pay the ever increasing interest on... That's why Starmer pledged (for what that's worth!) to "reduce debt as a measure of the economy", not actual debt. As the formed governor of BoE pointed out, gdp is very nebulous... so (debt/gdp) is nebulous too... (how long is a piece of string? ... This long.)
When a govt follows Modern Monetary Theory, and creates Magic Money from nothing, to stimulate economic growth, maybe through cheap loans to businesses and individuals... some time later, it has to tax it back to balance the books. People like cheap loans...they don't like paying tax. They vote for a low tax govt... the Magic Money remains in the system, the currency weakens, and imports become more expensive. Eventually, the Magic Money must leave the system, either by tax, inflation... or austerity...
We can't just go for growth and depend on trickle-down, where wealth gushes up and drips down where the richest can't fix the leaks. The private sector is reluctant to invest in the real economy and prefers share buybacks and speculative trading to reward their shareholders. Intervention may well be needed on both counts.
Thats the shareholder value model as one of the primary causes.
@@jgmediting7770 I agree, the lighter the regulation and the more we allow dodgy financial instruments and complexity, the more we fuel greed and inequality. It's intentional.
@@davidmcculloch8490 The reason people’s wages have stagnated for the last decade is because there has been basically zero growth. It’s why the average British household is now something to the order of £10,000 poorer than other comparable nations who were experiencing economic growth while growth in Britain was stagnating. Nations not experiencing economic growth is simply extremely bad for everyone.
@@meltedsnowman9637 Yes, I'm aware of that argument but it's a fantasy that trickle-down stimulates growth. Let's assume that more wealth is put in the pockets of the majority and they spend it in country, as opposed to the wealthiest who move it offshore. A recipe for growth, ceteris paribus.
"Dignity and respect for everyone whatever they're doing" we could start by paying them the same.. or, at least, vaguely similar. One person, one vote. One stomach, one meal. Why do some people believe they need 1000 meals a day?
This is scarily close to communism.
@@superpantman I haven't read the manifesto.. can't be arsed if I'm honest - but it looks to me like the more extreme the inequality, the worse things seem to get. If the idea of vaguely fair pay and conditions for workers and one vote (or equivalent influence) per person is scary, then we might want to ask ourselves why we'd think such a thing. What is so terrifying about a broadly fair society?
You don't have to answer but I think it at least warrants a little thought..
Big up Torsten ✊
It’s always great to hear you speak Torsten.
It's going to be difficult for KS to balance the books as all the things he promised in his speech will require tax hikes .
He's got to focus on the richest 2% in society who possess 50% of the nations wealth and to windfall tax the energy corporations .
EXACTLY 👍
lets not forget the 1.6 billion spent on the barge, didnt need spending, or 6 million a day on hotels that could be spent elsewhere if we got rid of backlog, but working though at speed, and actually removing people where their claims fail, as there has been a 70% reduction of sending people back under torry
Yes..and we need to increase corporation tax and make it progressive for the £1 billion plus companies. Closing the Irish loophole on tax where the likes of Amazon, Google and Microsoft funnel all their UK revenues would pay for more or less everything.
@@petyrkowalski9887 You beat me to that.
@@petyrkowalski9887On 1 July 2021, the OECD issued a statement setting out its two-pillar plan to reform international corporate taxation (Digital Services Tax page), which the UK has committed to. Pillar One will enable the UK to tax a portion of the profits of the world's largest businesses that are attributable to consumption in the UK, including the profits of the world's largest digital businesses. As a compromise, the UK is to withdraw DST and commit to a 15% minimum level of global tax on large businesses under Pillar Two of the OECD's proposal.
On 20 December 2022, the OECD released a consultation document (Public Consultation Document - Amount A) setting out draft articles for the inclusion of the Multilateral Convention (MLC) in order to implement Pillar One. The MLC will require all members of the Inclusive Framework (of which the UK is included) to “remove all DST and other relevant similar measures with respect to all companies, and to commit not to introduce such measures in the future.” The Inclusive Framework aims to finalise the MLC for the implementation of Pillar One by mid-2023, for entry into force in 2024. The OECD intends to finalise the legislative framework during 2023, with the proposal to take effect from 2024. The UK has agreed to end its DST by the deadline of 31 December 2023 in order to adopt the OECD’s Pillar One model rules from 2024. The UK government anticipates that it will introduce a domestic minimum tax in the UK to complement Pillar Two, likely to come into effect from 1 April 2024 at the earliest.
Business and economists are on board 👏
Exploitative capitalists
and unions
sure but the original comment forgot to add unions @@DecMurphy
@@Alexpage1111 The unions don't seem to me to be on board. If they are it's very reluctantly, some like Unite have considered disaffiliating from Labour if they don't follow through on their worker's rights pledges.
Economists who believe in Modern Monetary Theory... creating Magic money and increasing national debt is not a problem....
.... it's easy to create Magic money, to stimulate economic growth, but it all has to be taxed back, to balance the books. And increasing debt requires increasing interest payments...
Can anyone explain the difference b/w trickle down economics and trickle down jobs.
But trickle down jobs IS trickle down economics. That’s exactly what it is. Tax benefits and subsidies for big business instead of taxes going to things like free school meals, child benefits, free travel. The issue is not jobs the issue is that the corporate world takes the subsidies and incentives profit massive from it and it goes to CEOs and investors, not ordinary staff. That why we have massive wealth inequality. It’s the same daylight Robert that’s been going on for decades. Starmer is here to make sure is stays.
Not quite.. so-called trickle down was based on the lie that making the rich even richer benefits the poor as they will benefit from the money they spend. Its been proven time and again to be false. Jobs is about sharing the wealth more equally so long as they are quality jobs and well paid ones which is why we need to invest in a skilled workforce for tech, engineering, science, medicine etc
ending thatchers diabolical privatisation legacy would be extremely helpful along with income tax avoiding parasites.
modern day robber barons
Starmer didn't say that, he said trickle-down economics causes jobs to trickle out.
And that will always happen whilst you have an economic system with concentrated ownership and decision making. Or in other words, an economic foundation where work and ownership is separated.
Same as it ever was.. Same as it ever was... Same as it ever was.... Same as it ever was
I hear a song coming on
The other thing they need to do is renationalise the utilities so that every penny of your bill is going into better services and not shareholders pockets.
I agree with the idea that we need to improve jobs and that more housing is needed. I don't think the public will be on board with higher taxes considering the record profits made by oil companies and companies in general over the last few years and especially during the pandemic. I also think it's a bit sad that his mind is focused on what we're "handing on" to future generations, there's nothing wrong with wanting the country to be better for people in the future but there are people here and now that are struggling and would like these changes to impact them for better job and life satisfaction and the people that are here now aren't hypothetical.
Plenty of people out there not paying their fair due of taxes, and they are certainly not poor, far from it.
Broken Britain.
higher taxes for the wealthy, tax capital like we do with income, and massively overhaul the tax system for rentier corporations like the energy sector, water, transport, big internet tech companies etc. and close down tax avoidance loopholes. simple.
1:22 --- This "economist" doesn't know that fiscal spending is not financed by treasury sales (meaning interest rates are irrelevant).
You don't oftentimes need to raise taxes to increase fiscal spending (the Tories hit a record fiscal deficit during the pandemic, with no inflation); inflation only arrived in 2022 when the energy companies engaged in price gouging (record profits are proof it had nothing to do with supply "issues").
Public investment is the foundation upon which the private sector can be an epiphyte or a parasite, but never the fulcrum.
His insistence on GDP growth is poppycock, since there is no lack of wealth in Britain, only a misallocation to the top 5%. You can fix that by raising the income tax allowance, then pegging it to the RPI. The minimum wage should be inflation adjusted (to 2006 pounds, just before the banking crisis) and then pegged to the RPI. VAT should be scrapped for food and energy, set to 5% for all else, and 30% for luxury goods
Slamming private businesses that pay tax is cynical and it’s more about having the right balance and incentives.
@@Pathofplenty "slamming private businesses"? I said they're epiphytes or parasites. That's an even-handed perspective; the only way you wouldn't think so, is if you were ignorant of the definition of 'epiphyte'.
@@BOZ_11 What you’re saying isn’t true. The UK has objectively been experiencing FAR less growth than other first world countries such as the US.
Does not matter what they offer
They won't deliver it.
To have good jobs available requires that companies come to the UK to invest. As long as the Government portrays itself as isolationist, why would they come?
Or perhaps we invest in ourselves. Foreign investment just moves money abroad
I'm German. I'm talking about blue collar jobs
We need dyno-rod economics to return the natural flow and clear the blockages 😂
The jobs market is a sea of crap payed low hours garbage. What’s there not to be happy about?😂
What is it about Torsten that is so compelling? Smart, handsome & cheeky....he'd make a great MP one day.
Not his economics, anyway.
@@jgmediting7770too left- or too right wing for you?
@@vintage0x don’t get me wrong. His economics is infinitely preferable to right wing economics. But the few times I’ve seen him speak, the economic suggestions don’t solve the fundamental issue, and will just lead us right back to where we are in the long run. Which will always happen with reforms to constrain capital in a capitalist economic model, as the likes of picketty have analysed.
Though I don’t know if Torsten views these as short term things and intends them as stepping stones to fixing the fundamental issue, or whether they’re where he actually is on the political spectrum. If it’s the former, fine as they will improve things in the short run as part of a longer term plan to fundamentally improve society. If it’s the latter, then it’s a problem as he is ignoring the lessons of the past 80 years. So, he isn’t too right. He’s not left enough, is possibly ignoring the fundamental causes of the problems as he tinkers around the margins, whilst ignoring the lesson the likes of picketty have learnt.
A large reason continuous growth is needed under economies based on a foundation of work being separated from ownership is because of the very class dynamics such systems create and the need to counter its effects to stop that system collapsing. So, I just don’t trust those who are giving it this kind of rhetoric around growth as being the solution, as it’s a load of disingenuous nonsense that is rooted in the elite’s class interests around their economic and political power.
I’m happy to learn more about Tortsten to see exactly where he’s coming from, but feel I got a pretty good idea from an hour or two interview I saw of his on novara media. He seemed to be towards the social democratic middle of the political spectrum. Hence my comments. If that impression is wrong, let me know. One thing I would be interested in, is his views on worker coops.
@@jgmediting7770 thanks for the thorough reply! you've gauged his economics in much the same as I have - he strikes me as a standard centre left socdem, and a believer in capital and in growth. totally get what you mean about the potential of worker ownership models, and it would not surprise me if he was at least somewhat sympathetic toward policy which would make co-ops easier to establish.
Torsten Bell, also known as the Bell End
why?
No, he must offer the People, Re-Join the EU or no Vote, Re-Join by 24.
Tax the rich, simple 🙂
In the short run, absolutely. In the medium and long run, address the fundamental issue within the economic system. Something this guy and Starmer’s labour avoid to the point they don’t even mention it.
@@freko106 I absolutely agree with you about taxing wealth. But we also have to learn the lesson of history the likes of picketty have pointed out. Putting such constraints on capital will never last in the long run as that class will use its wealth to eventually roll back such reforms constraining them. It can only work in the long run if it’s a stepping stone to addressing the fundamental issue, which is concentrated ownership and decision making within an economic system. Or in other words, an economic foundation of work being separated from ownership.
It’s a sobering thought that we need a 100% wealth tax to stop inequality growing each year. Even a 99% wealth tax would see inequality continue to grow.
Sounds good, but how does that help me?
simplistic, not simple. The top 1% already pay 30% of taxes.
More important possibly is to stop companies getting away with paying 0 tax
A lot of this speech seems completely at odds with what he's been saying for the past 4 years.
Not sold, no idea who he is for still!
He's an economist, his job is to critically analyse the policy that gets proposed and critique the outcomes, not mindlessly route for a political party like we're watching football.
@superpantman Yes, I know what an economist is, thanks.
It's Keir Starmer, who I don't believe or know what he stands for. His statements are often contradictory and the small print rarely matches the headline
good jobs for the boys etc
quality jobs not two bob Conservative jobs zero hours working within the junk food industry.
For poverty wages.
Would that somehow magically change under Labour?
@@keithparker1346 That's all you ever bang on about. Yawn yawn yawn. No one is asking you to vote for them are they?. All you want to do is moan about them. Yeah ok we hear you. You have an issue with Labour. No one cares.
Labour needs to offer democratic socialism. There is no other solution.
There is capitalist socialism, as performed in mainly Scandinavian countries.
There is overwhelming evidence that central planning has massively increased poverty and lower standards of living compared to capitalist systems.
EVERYTHING HE PROMISED IN HIS SPEECH HE WOULD DO ; WOULD COST -A LOT - OF MONEY! TO PROVIDE "HIS" WORKING CLASS WITH THESE
HIGH-QUALITY JOBS ( ALSO THE TORIES PROMISED TO CREATE H. Q. JOBS AFTER BREXIT BUT HAVE RUINED THEM)
THEREFORE HE HAS TO MAKE THE ECONOMY ; INTERNATIONAL. TRADE FUNCTIONING FIRST ! I DOUBT THAT THIS IS IN THE MINDSET OF LABOUR!
taxing those who should already be paying taxes such as those with non dom status will bring in billions. Then of course also no throwing money at your mates would bring in billions as well and not wasting money on public spending projects that you abandon would bring in even more billions. Labour has fully costed it plans. Unlike Truss and the rest of those billionaires currently in charge is wasting public public money.
Joining the EU would be another great idea. More so because we were told lies ✌️🫶 You’ll Never Walk Alone 👊❤️❤️❤️
we left a sinking ship and totalitarian regime by a democratic vote.
No no no no going back. Brexit best thing since sliced bread
Decent pay, funded by a wealth tax
And when many rich people or corporations leave, you’ll have way less taxes and also way less businesses paying people wages than you did before you raised taxes, leading to lower wages and less money to spend on public services with higher taxes.
@meltedsnowman9637 the wealthy always make this sort of noise. The majority won't leave because they will have to give up their lifestyles and social circles.
Compartments - an 'economist'.
No no no no more houses definitely no more houses!!!!! No no more no no no
Agreed. Food security
Until Brexit is address we will always be the poor man of Europe...
Why isn't Starmer offering good jobs now? 🤔
Oh! Because he's in opposition.
Let's be radical and put the horse before the cart.
Starmer, Labour, must get elected.
Stop giving him the benefit of your wisdom and back him.
Feel free to offer advice when he's in a position to do something.
So let's give a known liar and u turner a free pass? No thanks
This guy sold out as soon as he got offered a role to be an MP for Labour.
Joe.good.man❤🇬🇧😇
The economy needs to be democratised, but instead of doing that all team Starmer is going to do is subsidise private enterprise, which is what got us into this mess in the first place, to make doing socially useful things as profitable for them as possible. In so doing they're further increasing the unaccountable power of private oligarchs, just like New Labour did, and overly centralised power is the entire problem with our society. Things may appear to improve slightly for a bit, but it'll be at the expense of the future, and in the long term their approach will just leave us in an even worse situation.
More Tankie 💩
@@davidhodgson3901 Come up with an actual counter argument and get back to me.
I like how we went from first "Well Labour need to be electable so they shouldn't be too far left" to "Keir Starmer should not drop too many left wing policies" to finally now "I hope Starmer is lying about his policies and once he gets into No. 10 will reverse everything he's saying now". Dire, dire times and honestly I'm not sure I want to vote for a party on the hope that they're completely lying about what they will do.
yeah, of course only that unions also agree, and that the public will always own a share but yeah go ahead and thank Corbin for all those policies and state ownership he created, oh wait, he didnt do anything did he lol, oh hows that minimum wage? long term labour policy didn't help anyone till Blair enacted it @@menon.anirudh
Spot on. Nice to see an economically and politically literate and educated person in RUclips comments.
Try re joining the EU.👍
🤠💜
Its not government's job to offer or create jobs that is just modern times crap because it is now pretty much ran for the benefit of businesses rather than the people. If you want good paying jobs start paying more in benefits and get rid of the hoops, make it so people can sit ok and not fear what might happen if they lose there poor paying/bad environment jobs that way the companies will have to start offering more, better conditions, pay etc... But no that would eat into the shareholders pockets and decrease profits.
I think you are talking about UBI, a full safety net so that you can aim for a good job.
@@JoannaHammond That would be even better and yes I've been a supporter of that for a long time, everyone gets the same regardless of circumstances, no more JSA/ESA/Gov Pensions just one payment paid to all citizens. But currently if you are unemployed you will be sent on countless courses etc that all cost the government absurd amounts, then we have health assessments where a "Health Care Professional", usually someone who did a PE course overrides the views and opinions of our doctors which also cost massive amounts, and then we have the appeals that cost even more. All so people don't get comfortable on the dole and are terrified of loosing that crappy job that barely pays enough.
@@TheSkunkyMonk Yep, I used OBR figures ages ago to cost out a basic £20k for everyone. This was removing ALL benefits including PIP, also changing the minium school leaving age to 21 (when UBI would become available.) Was interesting, could be affordable with a few tweaks to taxation, such as removing the current tax free amount (would no longer be needed.)
@@JoannaHammond ubi under capitalism isn’t great. You need the right economic foundation for ubi to be a really good thing.
The fundamental solution to that is an economic foundation built around worker coops. Starting with promoting the growth of a large coop sector to compete with the private sector.
James Acaster not as funny as he used to be
HA ha ha ha, capitalist economic forces of supply and demand govern jobs, the capitalists want a cheap labour force.
Here’s a plan: get the hell out of the WAY! Stop protecting the corporations and connected people from the people who have new and better ideas.
And no, there doesn’t need to be an attitude if you invest you will get returns. There needs to be an attitude if you invest, you won’t get ruined by the government.
Finally, do have dignity for workers. Let them all make their own contracts. How can you expect employers to treat workers with dignity while at the same time demanding they be everyone’s nannies?
Listening to these people is turning me into a libertarian.
No company is going to invest if they don’t think they’ll get returns. Less business investment means lower demand for labour for a given supply, which means lower wages.
@@meltedsnowman9637 But they don’t have to think it’s guaranteed. Someone who only invests in sure things has no business in a free country. They can eff off as far as I’m concerned. Also, all this concentration on jobs is part of the problem. Government needs to realize the businesses and investors do not work to keep them in office. They need to get their paws off the economy.
This guy makes me feel stupid. Haha
Try re joining the EU.👍