I Don't Trust Riot Games...
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- Опубликовано: 1 май 2024
- Hello guys and gals, it's me Mutahar again! This time we take a look at Vanguard, one of the most invasive anti-cheats on the gaming market. Recently it was placed in League of Legends, one of the most popular games played right now and it's time to revisit the implications of having something so invasive installed on your system just to play a little game. Thanks for watching!
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Игры
Remember, the chance that a hacker gains access to your *whole* computer through Vanguard is low, but never 0%
It's much higher that you download something from a compromised website.
@@dankmemer1305yes I understand that but you must understand this if it is compromised everyone's computer is compromised no if ands or buts if you have it online and you have vanguard open you are compromised not only are you compromised they probably already have a payload pushing to your computer. I feel like if it does happen it's going to cause a whole new word for a new type of virus probably called D-Day or something.
the chances are near 0, kernel drivers are more secure than Linux.
Hackers: I'll take those odds
@@Twlz_09 true but vanguard would make a good target and I can assure you that right now somebody is looking for a vulnerability.
Muta has his monitor brightness set to "give me a fuckin tan"
At times it's dubbed the "keep me awake" toggle.
You should get some actual sunlight
@@Irosicndosjnf can I play video games on this "actual sunlight"?
@@Irosicndosjnf btw, having a playlist with air fryer recipes and "how to" vids on repairing a Nintendo DS.... I highly doubt you're any less pasty than the rest of us 😂
Right? Someone tell him about dark mode 😭
"Amazing community" and "Valorant" should never be in the same sentance
amazing community and any riot games doesn’t belong in the same sentence.
God loves you all
@@SoulAtParadise They're literally called Riot
"people" that play Valorant are subhuman anyway
he said "amazing dedicated community"
That's part of my issue with Vanguard. Running at Ring 0 won't enable you to catch a DMA card, it's happening at the raw memory level. I feel like the only long term solution that isn't invasive is server side anti cheat.
Agreed. Love your videos btw!
Ring0 does provide benefits to detecting it, because the DMA card driver can deny querying the PCIe port towards other drivers, which a ring0 driver (ie. Vanguard, GameGuard, etc) can bypass, because it can manipulate the methods of the Windows API. Therefore helping identifying it accurately, versus heuristically. You could have a ring2 or ring3 anti-cheat, sure, but then it relies on information fed by the ring0 driver (ie. queried instruments does not show the DMA card then). Then you would need to have other data points that would not be manipulated or have not been manipulated as an oversight by the cheat developer. VAC does this by using machine learning, for example, to identify such connections. At the end of the day, what really matters is how much GameGuard, EAC or Vanguard care. They don't care about DMA cards or Arduino-esque hardware right now, because the barrier of entry is way higher than just downloading an executable, which makes up 99.999% of the cheaters (children with no disposable income and the tech knowledge) and those are the ones who devalue the product the most. If a developer claims it is undetectable, then they're peddling a product, because right now all security comes from obscurity and the gating of the audience to have that obscurity. The moment you compile your own original code you're already completely out of scope of any anti cheat module even - unless you publicize it - so DMA cards and HID/Network stuff is even more obscure than that.
If it were up to me, I would get rid of them entirely because they violate my rights to my own devices and to also replace them with server sided anti cheat modules, but the problem is that video games have become a golden goose for corporations. They're porting games across different systems for a quick buck and if you have to make system-specific adjustments, like keeping in mind that on PC you can very easily access the memory, then they're more likely to resort to blanket solutions like EAC/GameGuard, rather than implementing measures on the server to prevent people from abusing that. You're not going to have a lot of people on console who have the tools to tinker with the packets after all. This means a corporation will not invest into developers working on server measures for months, because every effort under the hood that the customer can't see is considered a waste of money to them. This is why you don't really get great video game AI either and why video game AI always have to cheat extensively, because you're buying the illusion of AI and not some processing heavy algorithms. I don't think we'll ever get corporations to think differently about this, unless mandated by law to invest in server sided game security, and they will always abuse your personal rights to mitigate cheating first. If they could require you having a webcam enabled at all times for facial recognition to put your face into a global database of cheaters, they would.
Personally, I think the solution is to make video games unappealing and not worth cheating on again. The moment you remove FOMO, grind, MTX, competitive aspects and progression systems that induce addiction and an artificially inflated feedback loops, as well as reinstating dedicated servers with self-moderation by people hosting them, then you stop courting an audience that will cheat and they're more likely to get tired of it after a short while, without basing their personality around their performance on a game. Like how many people in here are consistently playing games where you have no resources, no progression, no systems between servers or rounds? I'd say it's less than 1 in 500. How many children would cheat at their homework, if homework was optional and never checked? I think making games for the lowest denominator (aka you can breathe) and letting them mingle with competitive audiences was a mistake, because most of those people are not really playing games because they're intrinsically fun anymore, but because of supplementary systems that are like crack cocaine sprinkled on a cupcake they would otherwise not like.
God loves you all
you people are giving them too much benefit of the doubt. This "cheating problem" is just an excuse to run their software on your devices then sell your data to nation-state actors.
Good take
Anti cheat is either garbage that does nothing or is more invasive than your weird uncle.
Not true. Without anti cheat, it would be vastly worse situation for the players.
@@thingsiplayriot already f*cking up there game so why not f*ck-up there anti-cheat
Or both
@@thingsiplay Reading comprehension is an important skill.
@@cin2110 Attacking personally does not make the other opinion wrong. Anti cheat does a lot for videogames and without them most multiplayer games would be unplayable. Just for you, in case you did not have the skill.
I remember in the original Rainbow 6, you could literally open up a notepad file and change one variable for your rate of fire, bullet velocity, bullet size, etc. We'd just spawn in and aim toward the enemy spawn and they'd get instantly hit with a planet-sized projectile and killed.
That's absolutely *BEAUTIFUL* game design right there.
Someone needs to make a game where cheating is a requirement that actually sounds like fun ngl
@@Gokuevpyou would have loved cs2 premier mode a week ago
that funny in a pve environment.
@@Josh-ri4rdlmao that’s how cs2 premier has been since launch
The moment my buddy told me LoL was asking for a pc restart, and showed me a screenshot of their new Vanguard update, was the moment LoL died for me. Been playing since 2011, it's a damn shame, but all good things must come to an end.
We both uninstalled. Rip.
It ended after s5
Or just restart your computer
You'll be back.
Uninstalled on the day of the patch myself. Done with LoL as long as Vanguard exists in its current state and is required to play. I can bite the bullet on anticheat if it only runs when the game is playing, but having it boot up automatically every time you restart your PC? No thank you.
God loves you all
This is why I don't play online games.
All offline, all drm free, all backedup offline installer executables.
The level of ownership people freely give away blows my mind.
That’s great in theory, until you and your friends play video games together.
@@stuglife5514 That's literally the only excuse for games as a service, and it doesn't explain the sheer amount of gaas that keeps getting released (even singleplayer ones lmao)
@@stuglife5514 Yeah, sucks that there aren't any games from the past 20+ years that can be played together with friends without having to depend on publisher services.
Oh wait...
@@stuglife5514Local area networks and port forwarding have entered the chat.
@@stuglife5514 That's why local hosted servers exists, i can play minecraft, terraria, CoD, and many others without requiring a monopolistic invasive company to have acess to my data.
You should not trust any games company anymore at this point.
What about indie companies?
@@domena1007Companies are not your friends.
dude why in the first place would you ever place trust any companies in general? They are just after your money not your well-being hahahahhaa.
Even friends turn out to be not friends. Don’t trust anything or one 100
@@LY0N009Hello Games has given us so much without asking for anything in return
TIME TO QUIT LEAGUE AND BE PRODUCTIVE! LETSGOOOOOOO
ngl, i didn't upload it cuz of vanguard and i'm actually being more productive, that game is really opium.
ps: i'm even sleeping better, wtf.
Thousands of league players will finally see the sky and grass
Lets Go
I quit league 7 months ago, usually I would end up going back eventually, but I realized its not even fun anymore. On top of that, vanguard is definitely an additional reason. I've played the game for over 8 years up october of last year... but I'm done
we hardstuck IRL now, boys
while it doesn't _actually_ tell you to delete system32, it's quite wild that it just stops a standard windows driver from loading.
You spelled outdated wrong.
Actually anticheats in general are known to not play ball with all kinds of software you have running normally, from RGB controls through system monitors to actual drivers.
@@abadenoughdude300 it's just weird that it stops something that's internal to windows from loading lmao
@@generallyunimportant things in system32 are not all windows internals. many of them are drivers, such as the classic example of inout64.sys that is used by a bunch of RGB controllers (as backup lol not even the primary) and has an exploit so easy and egregious that i honestly think it’s on purpose. vanguard blocks these vulnerable drivers bc cheats use them as a way to get kernel level access. have yet to see one of these sys32 driver messages where a quick search didn’t immediately find rce in the driver.
@@unitno3113 vanguard shouldnt stop random drivers or programs that are not even cheats from working regardless if they can be exploited. this is not riots business, its over the boundary of what they should be doing, which is stopping cheats/cheaters. you dont need to stop msi afterburner working from common people pcs because it can be used for an cheat, didnt you add vanguard to stop the cheating anyway? let them use the breach in the software or screw their pc on their own, but vanguard should never do anything other than identifying the cheat and banning it. this is why many people get their pc unable to boot or bsod after installing the anticheat, because it has no limits and stops stuff that it shouldnt, causing conflicts in the pc. and its vanguard's fault, not the common user that has a fan controlling software that came with the prebuilt pc that had no idea. imagine installing vanguard and your audio driver just stops working, or your pc not booting anymore because it didnt like a random driver, again this is vanguard causing it, so its vanguard fault and it makes no sense that people are having to deal with this trouble just to play a game. an anticheat is supposed to stop cheats not control everything my computer that i paid for has.
I find it fascinating that RUclips‘s Adblock-Detection is considered against EU-laws while anticheats can just casually take screenshots and look at your clipboard and we are fine with that.
Problem is that if you tried to explain what "kernel level" meant to tho dinosaurs making regulations, their brains would start melting.
Although... Maybe if we framed it correctly. Like: "If you kids install Valorant on your PC, Riot has access to all those incriminating documents that might hurt your re-election chances" 🤔
Explanation: if you see word anticheat combined with word kernel, it means they violate every privacy related law in EU.
The problem is that it bites too big chunk of privacy and security in the name of questionable gains. Hackers will just go lower than kernel as explained in this video. They should find some other approach to deal with cheaters such as measure reaction time or aim accuracy on server side and then flag cheaters based on that instead.
to be fair, youtube isn't installed on your system. Vanguard is. That might be the difference.
Cheaters will spend hundreds on cheats, risk installing malware, and buy new copies of games after getting banned rather than try and get better. That's just sad.
Way more than hundreds. Good quality cheats are a weekly subscription, they are likely spending a couple hundred just for a month of cheats and that is just the cheap ones. High quality cheats are in the hundreds per week bracket
And while that may take them 20+ hours in total, you spend 1000+ hours to get good and they spend 980+ hours making money and advancing in life. Cheating is never ok, mind you, but lets not act like the person with a job is "wasting" their time lmao
@@Quasar-fv8to20 hours wasted, 1000 hours on a good time. If gaming is wasting your time, you must really enjoy working. Spending 20 hours cheating in a game is a bigger waste than a lifetime on a sub-par game.
Bold of you to think they do it because they want to win. A lot of cheaters do it because it makes people mad, which is its own sort of pathetic imo.
@@Quasar-fv8toyou think these cheaters have stable life? Lmao
Riot literally had a data breach around a year or two ago with the game's source code being leaked and they have the gall to say "we will protect our data as if it were our own". That leak of course created a huge uptick in cheaters and scripters and most likely is why they are forced to use Vanguard now. Not to mention they suffered a data leak 5 years ago, and then like, another one 5 years ago before that.
Riot's track record is proof that they really shouldn't be holding the amount of data they can with stuff like this and I won't be surprised when eventually another Genshin Impact incident happens but on a larger scale. It's a matter of when, not if.
As I'm not familiar with Genshin Impact, what happened on that particular incident?
@@ClockworkCrow7 They hacked the anti cheat of pc version of Genshin Impact and used it's kernel level driver to infect pcs with malware more specifically a ransomware iirc.
@@ClockworkCrow7 IIRC Genshin's kernel AC was used by bad actors to hack other PCs
The situation didn't last too long as there weren't too many cases nor was it exactly widespread news as even the vast majority of Genshin players that are fairly tech literate probably haven't even heard of it
Edit: Though it did reveal the possibility of things like Vanguard also being used in the same manner, also Muta talks about it at 18:50
@@ClockworkCrow7they used a character with a hack that creates bombs and ones he activates his skill the bombs get deleted and with them whatever was near them thus running the game by deleting large chunks of landmass and key structures
@@ClockworkCrow7 Attacks were utilized that used Genshin Impact's built-in anti cheat engine to drop and run ransomware on peoples' machines.
While not widespread and the impact (pun not intended) was minimal and fixed quickly, it highlights that anti cheat software, even if the company itself who owns the software do not have any malicious intent, other bad actors can still make use of vulnerabilities to create a doorway to attack peoples' computers.
With a game as popular and mainstream as League of Legends with over 160 million players (although who knows how many of those are smurfs/alts), with the added players of Valorant - the potential damage if something similar happens that is widespread is quite terrifying to think about given that Riot has a very poor track record when it comes to security.
i’d rather my videogame match have a hacker than my computer have a hacker.
I just uninstalled their client / game the moment they started to "notify" player that Vanguard will be installed "in the near future".
There was only one option to click on "acknowledged".
I just alt+F4, uninstalled with Revo and posted on twitter ( yeah I know, it's pointless ).
Had been playing LOL from season 3, hit grand master and am a bit sad about it.
But they decided to force the players hands.
riot just ruin my set up
and i am having a freaking gaming laptop
well time for me to play smite & dota 2 i Gussie
@@LORDSofCHAOS333Smite 2 coming soon. Just at the right moment.
WOW, no wonder Louis Rossman is calling these practices "rapist mentality". They're basically forcing consent from the users.
whats revo?
@@Unknown-pg2ed an uninstaller that essentially uninstalls everything that the program you wanna install put in your computer in the first place.
Sounds silly but there's a large number of software out there that leaves out residual files after uninstalling, including entries in the registry, and that's why software like Revo Uninstaller exists.
Essentially Xyed uninstalled his game with that, just in case it was already installed but not in action. I'd do the same if this existed back in the days of StarForce and SecuROM DRM considering the DVD drive stopped reading some discs after installing games with those DRMs
The fact that Valve are still holding their ground and sticking with VAC not being a kernel level anti cheat still blows my mind, they're trying a different approach by incorporating AI into their anti-cheat system, VACnet. The option of Overwatch system in CS2 that was recently added is also a great move, giving the players a way to contribute to the cheater problem in CS2.
They said they don’t want to VAC being exposed. So that’s why they are not pushing any information. But I assure you they are working on it. Sadly, that will not prevent people from cheating but probably reduce the problem by 30-40%.
P.S. 20% :D
Honestly, props to Valve on not trying to make it's Anti-cheat basically malware
Meanwhile they have one of the worst anti-cheats on the market. There's consequences to not keeping up with the times. There's a REASON they're all going kernel-level.
Look how well that's going..
@@TheToffenyeah and that reason is because you give up so much information about your computer and yourself. Not because cheats are getting worse or more prevalent. That’s just the excuse
As a repair tech I can anecdotally state that I have had customer's system with severe corruption after a fresh install and all they have is Chrome and Valorant. I have also seen it conflict with some of ASUS' stuff as we had to uninstall their software (for laptop controls).
I don't know, cause like he said I don't have the laptops to check for my self (never installing it on my laptop), but I would think it's some kinda registry conflict or even worst a bios conflict.
I also don't know if u can confirm this, but I have seen pc's which got trojans and had to be throw away and never connected to anything again, wiping and doing a fresh install wouldn't even work, what ever state the trojan put the pc into, it will always go back to that once powered on. This experience is why riot can't even pay me to install Vanguard on my own system,
@@speeddemon9616 Tell me you don't understand "kernel level" without outright saying that. It's a dangerous space to work in, anything going wrong can mess with anything in the system unlike userspace. Something going wrong in kernel level has the potential to brick hardware.
Could be, but could also be a severely overheated system (over time). Most laptops do not really have the cooling capacity to play games long-term due to the way they are built.
@@freedustinif any of you guys think China does not intend to spy on you, you have another thing coming.
Riot/Tencent has never cared about the players/ it's employees. This is about spying on you and controlling you.
Riot has never cared about cheaters in your games.
@@nathanaelniklaus2981 If you're not overclocking, gaming laptops absolutely can go the distance depending on model and cooling solution. The file corruption issue I've seen on both desktop and laptop, neither are an insufficient cooler issue. And the incompatibility issue is likely something heuristically programmed into the Vanguard anti-cheat tripping a false-positive, as after uninstall and ensuring registry keys are clear the issue resolves itself.
Cheaters are happy opening their computer's ass cheeks wide to allow the cheat tool to shove an arm up into it, just so they can cheat.
Because of that, if you want to play a Riot Games videogame, you have to also open your system's asscheeks wide so that Vanguard can look inside to confirm that there's no hack tool arm controlling it.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Plot twist: people that made vanguard are making cheats :D
@@kruk_7279 well wot sell these on third parties
@@kruk_7279 not a plot twist. thats exactly whats happening not only with vanguard.
The real question is why does Windows 11 even allow user programs stuff to be installed in Ring 0. I blame Microsoft for letting any app control Ring 0
because it's your computer and you should be allowed to install anything you want anywhere you want.
@@zera2314Many AV software install kernel drivers too.
@@zera2314 Literally all of them? do you know what drivers are?
@@Archedgar I didn't know drivers were installed at ring 0, my b. I know barely anything about computers.
Just make windows come with every driver possible pre-installed and users can just turn on the ones they need. Problem solved.
(Joking)
@@zera2314 Like most people defending the rootkit, you are either lying or ignorant.
15:32 That number bends the truth a bit. The League on Linux community pretty much disbanded itself when the vanguard announcement was made a couple of months ago. I was one of the ones that uninstalled league as a result, and wouldn't show up in that count.
While I can't factually say how many more of us were playing league on linux months prior to the announcement, 800 were just those that remained.
Edit: Spelling
I'm glad somebody said this... Like the most obvious issue with their numbers.
I knew it had to be something like that. It's such an unbelievable number given how big that game is.
I was playing around the time it was announced. On a random day I got a pop-up in my League client saying my system is suited for Vanguard, só I don't trust their capability of gathering this data
There was also argument (idk if truth) that lots of linux players shows up as windows players etc. so they're excluded from this data too.
Yeah same. I quit in the winter due to vanguard and Wayland issues that fucked with LOL.
" YO ! put these shackles on , it's just to avoid theft, trust me bro! "
Are you vaccinated?
@@Rissper.What ?
Why are you even asking ?
How is this related to the topic ?
Guess we'll never know why you wrote that comment !
@@Rissper. are you serious?
@@Rissper.3rd party certification
@@Rissper. Weak attempt at hatebait. Remember, it's not a failure but a learning experience. You'll get better over time, trust me bro.
Vanguard very nearly bricked my brother’s computer, which he uses for work and everything. I had no idea an anti-cheat could completely cripple a computer the way it did, as it stuck around even when it was uninstalled. It took us forever to fix.
I ran a driver program and saw that vgk.sys wasn't on the list of drivers. How did you figure out it stuck around after uninstalling it and how did you fix it?
proof?
How did you fix it afterwards?
@@chronozeta what proof? totally in the possiblity of what could happen with rootkits
@@Thundah Because the issue still persisted, and vanguard was still showing in windows task manager using up like 98% of his CPU constantly. His computer ran as slow as though it was running Windows 95 still.
YAY thank you for this, I checked your account early yesterday in hopes you would've talked about Vanguard cuz I trust your word. Thank you for covering this!
Vanguard is the only one that doesn't work alongside my school districts security. All the esports teams just lost access to the game lmao.
God loves you all
i think i spent like at least 30 minutes trying to uninstall riot and vanguard, because i was running low on storage. for some reason, it didn’t let you uninstall the game from the client and even the control panel wouldn’t allow uninstalling until after a restart and deleting the riot exe file
I had a similar problem. For some reason I was having trouble uninstalling, and league/vanguard were taking up several TERABYTES of space(!?).
As a Valorant player the funniest thing is that for some reason there was a glitch with the inspect on certain skins, most notably the newest one, the mystbloom bundle, literally gave you wallhacks lol
I defo had hardware issues as soon as vanguard installation started when I first wanted to play valo. Everything became borged during the installation process and afterward my pc started freezing completely when I tabbed out of full screen games and some other specific situations, as the issue got worse I had to completely wipe my system as well as exchange my gpu to fix it. And it 100% started the moment I clicked ok on the vanguared installation prompt.
We need to start a petition to have *ANY* anti-cheat involving Kernel to be labeled as Malware.
I agree
I'd rather start a petition for cheaters to never touch a game again.
You can protect yourself 100% from VAC. Never install a game that includes it. Of course, this means waiting until after release and then looking up online to see if it's included, but (IMO) buying on or before launch day is never a good idea anyway.
@@grayaj23 Does bro know what he's talking about
We also need to start a petition to have *ANYONE* who protests against effective anti-cheating measures to be labeled a cheater.
if the anticheat has to be active 24/7 and if you turn it off it tells you that you can't play again without restarting your pc, then there is something 100% fishy going on.
Well said
Literally explained in the video. This comment is a psyop from the cheat makers, either that or they can't listen to a video for more than 10 seconds.
doesn't seem fishy to me
how so
Exactly
Can't get invasive kernel level anti-cheat installed onto my system if I never installed their games to begin with.
Go to C:\Windows\System32\drivers and look at how many drivers you have that aren't from Microsoft. Hate to scare you but you already got tones of software running in kernel land from random companies
Standing very firm with you on this, and recently learnt that helldivers2 uses kernel level anticheat as well which makes no sense to make and makes me feel insecure about my pc and want to get rid of the game.
This sucks big time, now evert time I will have pc issues or data breaches I will wonder if it was anticheat running on my system or not
Wanna see how many more games uses Kernel level AC? 🤣
At least the one that Helldivers 2 uses doesn't have to run in the background all the time, it only seems to activate when running the game. It sucks that it's there but at least it isn't as invasive as Valorant. As soon as I realised that Valorant had to run in the background even when not playing League of Legends I made the decision to uninstall it and everything related to it. I haven't played League in months anyways but this was the final straw for me.
nProtect is bad, but nowhere near as bad as Vanguard. At worst, if you don't want it to run, you don't play the game and it never runs. Meanwhile with Vanguard, even if you last played Valorant 3 years ago, if you didn't uninstall it, Vanguard will still cripple your PC.
most multiplayer levels use an anticheat like this. Except indie games like deep rock (basically helldivers copy them, so you have that choice if you want), or overcooked, terraria, those kind of games, minecraft, valve games (have anticheat but is not kernel level)
Nah - it's actually pretty likely that Vanguard is the cause. The devs probably just weren't aware that interacting with the TPM infrastructure has a fairly long history of causing hardware problems.
For the average consumer, turning off the TPM module on your motherboard should be among the first things you do when installing the board.
No shit, because the 'devs' are communist agitators who spend every waking moment online doxxing and harassing people.
@@iamperplexed4695 What "average consumer" even knows what TPM is?
@@x_voxelle_x whichever group you place above the average console user in intelligence.
@@iamperplexed4695 The irony of considering yourself intelligent, while thinking the AVERAGE consumer have ever opened up BIOS. Stay in your worm realm, where u keep denying reality.
POV: You just updated league of legends 0_0
DO NOT SUPPORT RIOT GAMES
skibidi
Amogus
i just unistalled it after it asked for vanguard.
I uninstalled LoL when they announced they were going to add Vanguard back in january. I was also able to credit card charge back all the RP I had purchased in the previous months
I like that you are honest about these things and actually look into claims instead of just running with claims because you don’t really like anti-cheats.
Dropped league cause of vanguard. 3 bluescreens of death and season 14 kills my 4 years grinding
It's so weird that they make you reset your entire computer just to "initialize"
Karnel level anti cheat requires a reset so it could boot into the computer? No way Jose!! Are people actually this stupid or is this a bait?
@@thegoblinwholaughs1137 isn't it like when you go to the airport and metal detector beeped,then you take the stuff that got detected out then you walk thru the detector again as if you were to restart the process right?
@@poonpoon1604no it is more like the metal detector failed while initializing, so you gotta do it again with a working one.
@@richardgoed8101 I know that it's not 100% just saying that the restart in this case is like a double check up again that's all
If Vanguard doesn't launch on boot and the cheats do then the cheats can easily hide themselves from Vanguard.
This was the final straw for me. I play League casually from time to time so I've had the Riot launcher on my PC, but had to uninstall it entirely when I saw this garbage.
Do you plan to not play the large list of other games that use kernal leval anti cheat.
@@jlctheownerVanguard is causing actual problems for people's computers (Rito claiming Vanguard is not the cause is just as credible to me as when companies claim Denuvo has no performance hit) and Riot is an especially scummy company. I just don't want to deal with them anymore. They can go fart on their employees about it
@@jlctheownerNot all of them are hooked to the CCP tho.
@jlctheowner Ive played other games from Chinese game companies like Genshin Impact and Tower of Fantasy and even their anti cheats arent active 100% of the time. Riot is being hella sus here.
Yes but League is wirst cade scenario. Constantly running is THE worst a kernel level anticheat could do. Its probably prime target for hackers right now. Also Riot cant fox yheir client its still in a beta state filled with bugs. They are not known for good software and competence.
Well, if they run in Ring 0, nothing is stopping you from running your cheat software in Ring -1(hypervisors), Ring -2(System Management Mode - SMM), or Ring -3. (Before anybody tries to accuse me of cheating, I don't play any of these games.)
Thats not how this works, every lower ring has complete oversight over every higher ring, a cheat placed in a higher ring than the anticheat will be detected immediately
@@edgie8772 I know, you probably misunderstood me. If the anti-cheat software is placed in ring 0. I suggest to place the cheats in ring negative 1, negative 2, or negative 3. (Those '-' signs are meant as minus signs, not as hyphens.)(Those are a recent addition that came many years later than ring 0. That is why the names are a bit confusing.)
I dont know why Im reminded of Red dead. Where you have groups of people reading other peoples IPs while sitting around a campfire.
Vanguard is the most appealing target to compromise. It's so lucrative, it's probably already compromised and the actors who have done so are being INCREDIBLY protective about keeping it hidden. You have to just accept this truth as a likelihood if you play these games, until some goober gets overzealous and highlights the vulnerability.
There are literally bounties from riot with money just to find the holes and report them do you expect that no one will challenge themselves and ruin other hackers fun because this is the best think that can be done
Riot is only offering 100k. A 0 click exploit that gives remote access with ring 0 privileges to software on this many machines would sell for much, much higher to any broker who deals in malware. Sure a security researcher may report it, but plenty of people would be more motivated to sell for more money to others who would abuse it.
And riot offers 100k per exploit. Much more than any cheater will
@@TheRavenOfLifeit would not i work with security malware devs offer about 5-8k per exploit rn.
Biggest, most potent botnet to ever exist for sure.
You just remembered me that I forgot to permanently remove Riot Client from my PC including Riot Vanguard! Thank you for the reminder!
What’s the process to remove all the stuff?
I give a year before you return to league and want to play 😂😂😂😂
@@pureyt2725 You can probably use Revo Uninstaller to nuke it.
@@pureyt2725Tbh, the safest option is to reinstall Windows. You never know what kind of changes the AC made.
@@kostakonomiI stopped playing a few months ago and won't be going back. Not everyone who plays League is a crack addict that can't stop. There's so many other games out there to play.
while vanguard was still learning in the early days of valorant, vanguard bricked my usb ports. took a couple weeks to fix it so I could play with keyboard, mouse, headset etc.
Riot can't even fix memory leaks in their 15 year old client, do you really trust them operating at ring 0. It's hard enough for kernel devs to keep systems safe/secure
Something you fail to consider is that it's not because they don't actively steal data now that they don't have a switch to start abusing their kernel level permission the moment Winnie The Pooh tells them to.
what makes it even more suspicious are the TOS when you install the riot launcher, because when you accept them you also accept to give up your right to engage a class action against riot games if there is any kind a problem with their products (terms which are written is very small letters at the end of the TOS)
@@DandyVampire605that's common practice with terms of services these days, not to make riot look better, because I don't like that term but it's becoming very wide spread with these companies...
Yes. The whole issue with vanguard is its on 24/7. A test with raspberry pi to see that at that one instance he didn't DETECT anything happening isn't enough for me.
maybe like a year ago or more I tried valorant, when I tried to uninstal riot games basically wouldnt uninstall. I had to digging around and manually remove a ton of files
same
I think the longer video's you do are better cause it give some a better chance to understand your point. I found this video very interesting and informative to learn.
one of these days we will be greeted by Muta holding a knife and covered in blood in these intros
I don't play live service/online games (other than occasionally Honkai Star Rail and thats on the PS5), so I really don't care... BUT, if I'm running any software once I close that software I expect ALL of it's processes and sub-processes to terminate. If I'm required to have something running in the background EVEN if I'm not running the software (or game) then this is something I'm NOT installing in the first place.
yes you are totally right but what about sweet sweet data ?
imagine playing that gacha trash
@@ThunderingRoar imagine playing that riot trash
Don't trust corporations, in particular corporations that have access to your data, including online gaming companies/corporations!
The “don’t trust corporations” mindset isn’t good to have. You should understand what they do and don’t do, which is why videos like this are helpful. Corporations like Valve or Google are some of the major contributors behind projects like Linux
@@Cootshk did you see the latest CAL on which Verizon was found guilty? The latest CAL on which Google was convicted?
@@Cootshktwo dead Boeing whistleblowers. Don’t trust corporations BUT also learn what they’re doing, those aren’t mutually exclusive ✌🏼🙂👍🏼
@@Andrumen01I find it ironic that you say this stuff, considering you have a RUclips account and Google already has your data in their hands. You basically played yourself upon making your comment.
@trooperstallion Kid, the world is more complicated than you imagine. Some times there is no option but to get screwed over, like it or not, but that doesn't mean that trust has not been lost. You'll understand when you grow up.
Multiple things to correct here:
- For once some cheats done with external hardware, analysing output from the one PC in real time instead of relying on direct memory access, can't be detected at all. Because it is not directly connected. So kernel level anticheat doesn't help in that case at all - it just moves cheating to hardware level.
- Second thing is that you don't need to use anticheat software to prevent cheating. That's completely ridiculous. The cheaters aren't even the issue but the match-making is. As long as cheaters only get matched with cheaters, nobody would even care about them. That could be managed with any kind of preventive analysis of players which does not require client-side analysis tools of your software or hardware, or any other kind of invasive method - let alone kernel level access to your personal system.
At this point it would make more sense to sell the game preinstalled on read-only flash memory inside a custom console with only whitelisted and paired input devices, if you think anticheat was the way to go. But in my opinion that's just wrong.
It's far superior to combat cheating with a proper game design, not preventing cheating but dealing with it. But either these companies have no idea what they are doing or they simply prefer having access to your device and data for no good reason. Anyway it won't protect you against cheaters. Instead hardware to cheat in games will become more accessible to the casual players. It will not be possible to prevent it and therefore amount of cheaters will increase. So even if it might work now, it's short-sighted at best.
Halo already does this and there's still nothing but cheaters.
@@Zan_Jayna Seems like they are doing it wrong or their system thinks you are a cheater too. So you get matched with them.
@@thejackimonster9689 lol how do you think VAC works buddy and why do you think it's so trash at stopping cheaters lmao
@@czpa6406 I'm not even sure which statement you are referring to. Either way the individual anticheat doesn't matter. The problem is systematic.
As said you can't detect software which isn't running on the system with the anticheat. Same goes for hardware which isn't directly connected. So all kernel level access doesn't prevent shit.
You can find videos showing how to workaround such anticheat by the way and you can also buy existing solutions.
Also I didn't say current anticheat solutions don't prevent cheaters as a whole. But in the bigger picture they won't help long-term.
You now have most cheaters looking for quick and dirty cheats done with software which can be written yourself or found online. However the more games adopt invasive anticheat, the more cheaters will move to hardware solutions since prices for those will decrease over time and they will become easily available to masses.
I think at the moment this still requires SBCs with a little tinkering. But I don't think it will take long until you have dedicated devices to cheat despite kernel level anticheat.
@@thejackimonster9689 "They are doing it wrong" I would love to see how you would make a solution for such a long existing problem. It's easy to talk the talk but finding the answer to that is an entire innovation anti cheat devs have been searching for years
spookiest thing is right after i started watching this video the riot launcher loaded up on my PC without me opening it.
The thing that amazes me that Vanguard has been updated, more invasive more controversial, Agent updates but not a single news about the replay system in Valorant for years.
dont wear bluetooth headphones while playing valorant. Moment it disconnects your pc locks up for a good 3-5 minutes and you cant do anything. Best case scenario is to just reboot your PC.
If you do wear bluetooth headphones, be sure to keep them charged.
That might be a you problem and not Valorant. I only use bluetooth headsets and i never had something like this playing Valorant
I haven't had this issue
Prob as other said the pc might not be good enough to handle that much data and the disconnection lock it up
Never had this issues
@@jlctheowner not you op on the comments only ass machines would get overwhelmed any PC built in the last 4 years would not have this issue
Muda, software developer here. Let me ask you a simple question: Name one software company or application type that requires you to do a reboot to disable its core functionality or authenticate its legitimacy (aside from this trash)? There isn't one. The problem here is that when you give Vanguard this wiggle room you're going to give other companies the go ahead to do the same. Adobe will be one of the first running root level spyware to confirm the "legitimacy" of its application installs. Of course, we all can trust Adobe to do the right thing with that level of access. Now imagine multiple traditional software companies all doing the same. What they will really do is use it to spy on their competitors and upload sensitive non-critical usage data (this I know as fact because I sat in on meetings discouraging the practice). You have a much increase level of data leaving your home network so not only is it a privacy concern but increase data transmission cost as well. 30 or 40 companies "only uploading a little data here and there" adds up over time.
Two more problems this creates: 1) increased attack vector for bad actors 2) legitimizing grey developers having root access. The first is self-explanatory. The more companies needing the access because LOL, the greater the likelihood some hacker will exploit it for nefarious purposes. As soon as some shit breaks or gets stolen they will either deny it was their fault, point the finger at someone else, or deny it even happened (all of which we've seen before). The amateur devs honestly scare me the worst because I don't want some idiot from Github trying some experimental shit he read about on some board.
Once you cede ground here it becomes a cumulative snowball effect. This is bigger than your gaming hobby. Software companies are like illegal aliens. Once you let one of them get away with something, the rest will feel comfortable doing the same. Next thing you know they're all over the place doing WTFever they want and telling you that it's their right because you clicked download/install. Build That Firewall.
spot on 🔥
Fire conclusions 🔥🔥🔥
Once you let one Mayflower in, the rest come swarming🪳
I can't wait to hear Mutahar's take on the PSN account stuff in Helldivers.
I don’t trust any ordinary gamer! I trust SOME ORDINARY GAMERS! 💪
ok
Factual 🗣🔥🔥🔥
MUTA FAX!!
Muta hard
wow... well said. the SOG Sigma army co-signs this message
The fact that there are ppl who readily install this shit is insane to me.
people carry around a device that track them 24/7 and even willingly post more information on it to share with the world, you're a bit behind the time there
Sadly, not everyone has that level of care and attention to what's happening beyond their game screen.
Most people aren't educated early enough for them to not build dossiers. They're given a tablet or phone so early but don't know what or how the internet works.
Dangerous
Cause i want to play the game. Im not gonna willingly give my info and will always say no to tracking and stuff like that but in all honesty so many things we use are probably monitoring our data anyways so im not about to get paranoid and fret over everything. I just wanna play valorant :(
Go to C:\Windows\System32\drivers and look at how many drivers you have that aren't from Microsoft. You already have tones of 3rd party drivers running in kernel land
bro i had to subscribe, wish the internet was more like your channel than what it actually is xD
Was about to ask about that on here, glad you already thought of it.
I think it is concerning how many are seemingly okay with installing or running vanguard. I realize most people are not very knowledgeable what it means to have this running while on the internet all the time. But still, the resignation of the community overall is CRAZY. Looks like online gaming really is in the process of killing itself via the endless fight of intrusive anticheat vs cheaters.
"If you wanna play some of the best games in the world, I guess you have to kind of give up some of your security."
I thought we were talking about League of Legends!
God loves you all
The way you gotta uninstall any riot game by deleting the files themselves instead of a normal uninstall program.
you can literally uninstall it in control panel like any other app, wtf you yappin about
@@jobinzooki My friend had to use IObit uninstaller to get rid of his Valorant.
@@jobinzooki it actively refused to delete, friends and I needed to deep clean the files out to fully remove it from the system
@@honeysucklejazper3777 no you dont 🤣 i literally uninstalled mine on my old laptop yesterday. Everythin uninstalled fine. What you talking about 🤣 your pc just probably already full of malware 🤣
@@jobinzooki not for me, I let wouldn't let me I had to go and manually delete every single file. But okay.....
I like the long videos. I feel smarter after hearing you give Indepth explanations.
For context on that year old issue. Vanguard used to filter all known unsafe drivers and MSI Afterburner was using a long known exploitable driver and would be blocked this is no longer a issue and the blogpost even mentions that they just gave up and let some fly because some are just widely used.
Context: I also used MSI Afterburner on the release of valorant
Yesterday when I played Valorant I saw that I "lost" animations for one of my overpaid skin, comes out that their newest skin bundle along few other gave people wallhack while inspect gun animation and reloads
Wouldn’t play that shit even if it didn’t have Chinese spyware
The man , the legend 🍷🗿
Real
I mean spyware doesn't need to run in kernel. So I don't think that this should be the thing we are talking about. Riot could take your information without kernel access. Kernel access doesn't mean they have more information, just that they can see what other programms try to do. And of course they can also do everything else to your PC, but most stuff they could do without kernel in the first place. Your information isn't safe from something just cause it doesn't have Kernel access.
Vanguard wants me to disable the emulation VM from the BIOS. I find that to be too much, so I just uninstalled it.
I remember this being solely a creepy pasta channel. Man we’ve come a long way.
The spookiest ones are the ones that end up being true, like these cursed games.
I love the laugh as he does his intro. Love Mutahar
May I ask what virtual OS you use? is Oracle good for this?
I installed vanguard in a closed environment and put some unusual, some less so, files all around the drive. As soon as the computer booted, i saw reads to those files aswell as multiple system files by vanguard executable aswell as it writing an encrypted logfile and sending that data over to 3 different IPs. Wont be seeing that shit on my main system... So it does read stuff even outside the game.
So it is a spyware,thank you for your service
It is probably just hashing the files and comparing them to a database. It doesn't send the contents of your files over (but it could)
@@randomness4989 Much worse than spyware. It's a virus, one called a 'rootkit' which is the most extreme kind of virus.
Not to mention that it bricked a shitload of computers. A not-insignificant amount of people had their perfectly fine computers just shit the bed entirely after installing Vanguard for League of Legends
Well, color me surprised.
This is why I uninstalled league the moment they announced it.
My laptop is precious to me and I'd even sacrifice league. Game is unfun anyway due to bad game balance and design.
no they didnt XD i guess its the farmers fault when an obese person gets heart failure?
@@warlis4767 balance is rarely bad you just have a skill issue
@@iciclegaming7740Riot removing tenacity runes next patch:
@iciclegaming7740 balance rarely bad? When did you even start playing League?
I've seen high elo players make plays that you'd expect to see in Iron 4. Game knowledge and game skills aren't the same.
Mutahard trusts Trudeau more than he does Riot Games.
"too soon", or "not soon enough" ?
Hey man!!! Canadians are our brothers to the north
They might be batshit crazy sometimes but we love them nonetheless❤❤❤
@@SHUT-UP_MEG who is "we"?
@@Quasar-fv8to Canadians aren’t bad ngl they are chill
@LemiBee until we go to war. Then we commit some of the most atrocious war crimes known to history.
(Canadians were responsible for sabotaging canned food with live Grenades during ww2 and then tossing them at the Germans. Germans thinking they got food would open the cans and then get blown up)
Faceit is worse. They now require you to verify your id or passport. i uninstalled that shit so fast.
it does not requires verification. unless if your account is flagged by anticheat because of the suspicious actions you did with that account
@@onurdurmaz3634 bro I literally didn’t do anything suspicious. I did everything I was supposed to do and even did terrible in every match I played. It’s not like I was wall banging everyone and hitting all headshots. The only “suspicious” thing that I did was accidentally left my vpn on after I got done watching a movie but that alone should not require me to go through verification.
Very well-articulated. Purchase two systems, one personal, one gaming. I saw the update and I immediately stopped playing on my personal machine.
The evolution of muta’s eye bags is insane, no offense to him, mine are pretty bad too it’s just interesting to see, I inspect my own too I don’t know why other then eye bags changing or growing or shrinking always have
appearing stages im probably the only one who really thinks that but doesn’t hurt to share
damn... i just noticed that now
League of Linux is dead because of this software. They have already been losing some fans pretty hard the past few years from the convention panel where men were not allowed to attend, the allegations of overt discrimination, the damage certain events has caused with greedy battlepass nonsense nobody wanted, the old points change which killed off progression in older or unlucky accounts - So on and so forth. This one thing is likely to create more drama across the board with their games. Here's hoping they learn, remove this dogshit anticheat from existance and accept the responsibility of using server side securty. At the very least when these games go under I hope that preservation law is in effect so we can make those games better ourselves.
Yes, and allow us to set our server side for old patches like League Sandbox LS4 (4.20)
@@Zcooger Yes! we all wan't to go back and see the old fall and christmas rift or play events missed, even do some old school TT/Dominion again. Something RIOT is 100% opposed to. I 100% endorse backups of those patches getting released so we can get those back in full and mod them to be better. I want to dance with Vilemaw again!
Apparently there is a guy who was able to bypass vanguard while playing the game.
Enter client>close vanguard in app tray>immediately press play.
Riot for most incpometent dev team of the decade (except their artistic teams they dish out peak).
riot didn't fix they lol client for years
what makes you believe they are competent now .
blizzard maybe a shady greedy company also run by teencent
but at least they don't force me to run a sus anti cheat just to play a dumb game
its just not worth it bro
i will so going to uninstall every riot game and their client and install games like dota2 & heroes of the storm & smite on vid just to piss theme off
maybe then they will remove vengard from lol
considering it overkilled much low-end pc computers.
1 or 10 bad games are just not worth it getting my pc busted over it.
@@LORDSofCHAOS333blizzard isn’t owned by Tencent. Now you can’t even play wow in China
Another reason to play Dota 2 instead of League of Legends
Thank god Mutah i was looking tonight for research Vanguard and you are one of the few legit sources!
I need to get up in 4 h so ill check it out tomorrow
i used to live in the philippines and i shit you not, league of legends was found out injecting crypto miners in their clients some 6 or 7 years ago in the whole southeast asia region!! shit was wild!! and riot just issued an infuriating stupid-ass half-hearted apology and swept it under the rug like nothing happened... i've never played any riot games and always try to dissuade people from playing their games ever since
@kickingbackpunchingcones4099 it was on garena ages ago, but i thought i heard league just started distributing the game on their own for sea some time ago
it was garena not riot games
That was garena my boy
that was garena so blame them and their shitty launcher.
@@gamersworld4176 U can blame Garena and also Riot Games, they never bothered to do any check on Garena predatory actions until crypto incident.
The problem to me is that i literally can't even start the game, because Vanguard is not compatible with my system, and if Vanguard is not functioning correctly, the only option it gives you is to close the client. And i'm not getting a new operational system JUST to play League, i'm a player since 2014 and got emerald last season, but i still consider myself a casual, if i have to go to such incovenience just so i can play the game, i won't even botter, i'll just say goodbye.
Best bit about the “800” Linux users is that they released that statement about 2 weeks after announcing that lol won’t work on Linux anymore 😂
I am fairly certain they didn't even really have a proper way of identifying linux users, as wine simulated a windows environment so closely, that even the vanguard install test said that the OS is perfectly ready for vanguard installation. It even installed the vanguard client normally, but kept asking for a restart as the kernel driver (obviously) didn't load.
Also, the majority of linux users already uninstalled when vanguard got announced anyway. Why keep playing when you know it will end soon anyway.
vanguard fried my vape i was charging through my laptop and it never turned on again. this was at the launch of valorant. i believe the people saying they are having charging/boot problems
W vanguard
W vanguard
rare vanguard W
Vanguard, savior of the youth.
u probably just had to reboot the vape so vanguard could fully install on it 👍👍
As a reformed League of Legends player, cheating isn't even in the top 10 of things Riot needs to fix in LoL
Absolutely no reason for them to bring in their sketchy "anti-cheat" and makes me glad I quit playing
Honestly, I don't really care enough about playing League that I'll install Vanguard, but hot damn is it funny to see people bypass it day 1 like it's a speedrun. The client is such a joke that it just allows you to use its API to access almost anything (queuing, messaging, shopping) through an error message telling you Vanguard isn't installed/running, that only the failed in-game heartbeat to Vanguard is able to effectively prevent you from playing. League is such a spaghetti fest of code that I just really don't see Vanguard being able to run properly for the first year or two. But, happy to watch from the sidelines.
The video was did NOT feel long or tiresome.
Wonderful work Muta.
I have that bias that comes from playing LoL on and off since S1. However I've also seen them turn to the dark side slowly so eh I would just out of not giving a fuck.
Dude, there wasn’t any Tencent first three seasons. And the game was legitimately a game for fun with interesting raw mechanics and everything overall
This is the reason why stopped gaming. It is crazy that just to play a game, you need to install invasive software. Gaming is supposed to be fun but we now have to go out of the way and get headaches. Now I only play very basic retro games.
what are you hiding on your pc buddy ?
You mind me snooping thru your room? What you got to hide buddy?
If it acts like malware it is malware
Hey Muta I too chose the solution of just having two computers. Do you have any recommendations to listen to audio from both? For instance could I listen to and respond to voicechat from OG laptop and then also hear League from the new laptop? :|
Mutahar: not trusting things since 2012
My PC (the GPU to be exact) just randomly started overheating during gaming of any kind, I uninstalled Valorant and didn't have that problem anymore WHAT A SURPRISE
Edit: To anyone trying to suggest that I don't have the required specs or a dusty PC, it was a brand-new PC I built 2 weeks prior,
it has a Ryzen 7 7800X3D, 32 Gigs of DDR5 and a 4070 Ti
and it didn't have any issues before and after having Vanguard on my system
My PC overheated as in it crashed, usually it runs on around 60-70 degrees during gaming and games that ran completely fine before I installed Valorant weren't playable after
Edit2: I recommend people to try and read my post and the answers to ridiculous statements made by others that clearly didn't read it in the first place, before uttering nonsense , trying to delude themselves into thinking it was somehow my fault, in order to understand what overheating means and realize I have a new, high-end rig that is clean and well-built, and that my PC has been running perfectly fine no matter what game I play and no matter what settings I use, after uninstalling this crappy anti-cheat and before installing it in the first place
lol
source: trust me bro
my GPU stops overheating when I stop playing games WHAT A SURPRISE
yapping
ikr same on my setup
Don't worry. The day they announced it gave a sigh of relief. I only play once in a while for a friend who lives really far away. Now i can uninstall and not feel bad lol
Vanguard was one reason why I didn't play more Valorant when it launched it was too problematic to work with. It used to block my drawing tablet drivers so I had to close it everytime and required me to restart just to relaunch so I can play again, decided to go quits before I got invested in Valorant lol...
Uninstalled the entire riot client last week after realizing how complicated it is to fully remove from your system.
exactly! I don't have an issue with even other kernel anticheats like EAC, but uninstalling riot stuff makes you remove like 3 things in the right order and then probably still have to delete leftover files
You click a single uninstall button
You click, to a single uninstall button...
With anti-libre software, we are not the users, we are the used.
16:15 Also if you force Vangaurd to close through Task Manager, it can BoSD your PC.
bruh I swear as soon as I get dragged into reinstalling Valorant this video comes out