Worth noting that IDEC sport doesn't just hold the world record for global circumnavigation in a sailing vessel, it holds the world record for global circumnavigation in any kind of watercraft! Earthrace holds the powerboat record, which is more than 20 days slower
Very interesting video! You have forgotten to mention the weight advantage, Idec weigts 18t while Comanche 31t, knowing that the boat need to displace this amount of water to go forward, it makes a lot of water drag reduction for the trimaran.
You’re absolutely right! Lots of monohulls with fixed keels have up to 40% of their weight as lead ballast at the bottom of their keels. You can reduce that with canting keels like Comanche has, but you can get rid of it altogether by using floatation for righting moment instead of lead weights. Multihulls also can and often do sail with fewer crew for the same reason, as there is less need for “rail meat” to keep the mast upright.
@@pocketninjahun Yes wider boats need to get up on the water and plane to go faster, like a water ski boat, but long skinny boats can also exceed the “hull speed barrier” without planing!
The speed of any vehicle is a relation of its weight and the power of its drivetrain. Boats are unique vehicles in the sense that they are kind of plowing themselves to a soft medium called water. So the shape of the hull in relation to the total weight becomes an important factor. But also its drivetrain wich is the windage of the rigging and sails is an important factor as is the angle towards the appearant wind. All in all there is enough combinations possible to understand why sailing is such an obsession and new forms and shapes have been developed ever since man started to sail.
Also note the boards, significant lift is provided by these immersed 'wings' adding righting moment and reducing hull drag. Some tris also cant the mast more to windward, (increased projected area), and rotate the mast, reducing aero-drag and increasing lift. Weight tends to be closely attached to drag so keeping things light on multihulls is almost a religion. As forces are so high good engineering is needed for all types of craft. Of course you can flip a multi , and sink a mono...
I agree with you on all points! I did consider adding features like rotating and canting masts to this video, but decided to stick to fundamentals (e.g. hull design) and discuss those things in future videos.
Jesus I can't believe I found such hi quality information in just few seconds! Your channel must blow up congratulations, hope you continue always bringing that quality of content!
@@SailingTipsCa Dude I'm watching more of your videos, and by now I don't know if you already told this but I don't know exactly why catamarans are more weight sensible than monohulls and how trimarans behaves compared to then about this (except few aspects like about speed and stability but almost nothing compared to reasonable understood information I must say ) and what's the thing about catamarans hulls pointing down and trimarans more likely monohulls can point up, and so... Pretty much basic concepts I guess but coudn't find clear information about it yet, I think this and other basics could be an interesting subject to some video. Thank you!
Thanks for the feedback on my comments! I am looking forward to future videos on this interesting area of sailing. It is of interest that the sailing record around the world is hard to match in a powered vessel. (Weight of fuel) Much of the current speeds in both monohulls and multis (and for sure foilers) is due to advances in materials and composite technology...(you might explore that). Unfortunately for most of us, costs are out of reach by far!
Yes advancements in materials and technology make a big difference! One huge advancement in technology that is readily accessible to most of us is high-tech lines like Dyneema - check out this video: The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ruclips.net/video/9shiekaQNT0/видео.html. In conjunction with modern high-tech sails you can really transform even an old boat!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Very good tip! Have some spectra lines on my old boats (18 sq. meter cat), and a Chris White design outrigger canoe, but could use even more...
Another superbly clear explanation. You're an excellent teacher. This video does assume some basic knowledge of sailing theory, of course. It's worth noting that both boats in the video are aided by foils, doesn't change the fact that the trimaran a is far more efficient form than monohull. It's also the most stable form, even better than a catamaran.
Thanks for your kind words, and glad it makes sense! If it’s not obvious I’m a huge fan of trimarans and their speed potential after having spent thousands of hours on “slow” monohulls. Weight is key though - a heavy multihull will disappoint!
@@SailingTipsCa Due to physics, weight hurts performance, but multihulls have the advantage of getting righting force from structure instead of ballast. Certainly it's possible to build overweight mutlihulls. Condomarans come to mind. Or Neels... :) The idea of creating incredibly advanced monhulls then weighing them down with ballast seems contradictory, especially when better solutions exist in multihulls.
Comanche has a canting keel and IDEC Sport is still much faster because even with the canting keel IDEC Sport has much more righting moment. Using crude math, Comanche's keel-based righting moment is approximately the weight of the bulb of about 10 tonnes times the 6.5m displacement (~keel length), or 650,000 kNm. Compare this to IDEC Sport's righting moment which is approximately the weight of the main and windward hulls, or ~75% of of the 18 tonne total displacement, or 13.5 tonnes, times the 11.25m beam, or 1,520,000 kNm. So even with the canting keel, IDEC Sport still has almost 3 times more righting moment than Comanche (based on bulb alone) and IDEC Sport only weighs half as much. Comanche does also have 6.5 tonnes of water ballast, which increases righting moment to around 1,000,000kNm, but that's still much less than IDEC Sport and now she's also packing around 6.5 tonnes of extra ballast. There is much more complexity to these numbers that I've shown here, but the point is to show that there is no way for a monohull to create anywhere near the righting moment of a trimaran.
You didn’t mention the weight difference. If the trimaran and the monohull were the same weight, the speed difference would be minimal, I think. Try adding a lump of lead on the dagger board of the trimaran, and it would slow down significantly.
Yes Comanche is quite a bit heavier than IDEC Sport, however I have an interesting comparison much closer to home: My F-82R trimaran is about the same length, weight, and has a very similar sail plan to a Cheetah 30 sport boat that I also did lots of racing on. Both boats are fast off the wind, however the F-82R trimaran is significantly faster as the wind moves forward of the beam because of the use of flotation versus ballast for righting moment. The Cheetah gets knocked over as the wind moves forward, but the F-82R just goes faster!
@@SailingTipsCa Interesting comparison. So I think we are both right. The extra weight on a trimaran slows it down, but, as you say, the initial stability of a multihull gives it more power to windward. I have only ever sailed a Hobie cat, so what do I know. Not much. I do know however that reducing or adding weight on my 2 meter radio controlled trimaran significantly affects its speed. You should check out Perthmini40man on RUclips to see some exciting foiling videos. Cheers, Malin
@@malin5468 You’re absolutely right that excess weight has a huge impact on trimaran performance! But as you noted there is also a huge difference in initial stability. Here are some figures: the F-82R and Cheetah 30 both weigh about 2,400lbs, plus 3 crew to round up to 3,000 lbs each. The Cheetah 30 has a 1,000 lb torpedo bulb on a 7’ keel for a maximum righting moment of about 7,000 lbs, but that’s when the keel is horizontal, and much less with the mast vertical. The F-82R leeward float and beams weigh about 500 lbs, with enough flotation to lift the rest of the boat and crew (about 2,500 lbs) out of the water, so with a 10’ lever arm (distance from float to mast) the maximum righting moment of the F-82R is about 25,000 lbs and that’s with the mast almost vertical! Thanks for watching and thanks for the video tip!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for the very useful info about the respective righting moments of the mono and multihulls. Is there any point at which the drag of the bulb on the Cheetah makes it nosedive when sailing downwind? This happens with 10 Rater RC boats.
@@malin5468 Not really but there are some big differences 1) the 10 Rater has a very tall mast and long keel compared to the length of the forefoot of the hull, so there’s lots of leverage from the mast to pull the bow under. The Cheetah (and most boats) has a comparatively short mast and keel. 2) The Cheetah flies an asymmetric spinnaker from the end of a long bowsprit which provides substantial upward lift on the bow 3) The Cheetah has a relatively flat bottom and hard chines and planes like a water ski boat, which moves the waterline aft at speed 4) We move the crew as far aft as possible in these conditions. The Cheetah does wipe out downwind, but it’s more often a typical broach where the rudder gets overpowered like in this video: Five Reasons to Fly a Spinnaker and Jib Together ruclips.net/video/_HjLyupVRGc/видео.html.
Comanche does have a canting keel, which enables her to produce more righting moment with less weight in the bulb. It definitely helps over a fixed keel, but still not as effective as using flotation and the weight of the boat as righting moment like a trimaran!
I haven’t sailed on either of these but I would expect IDEC Sport to be significantly faster on all points of sail. There’s a common misconception that multihulls don’t sail very well to windward. Certainly some of them don’t (e.g. cruising catamarans) but some are very good to weather. My F-82R trimaran (8.2M / 27’) is faster on all points of sail than any monohull of the same length that I’ve encountered. In winds under 8 knots it’s about the same speed as a Flying Tiger 10M / 33’ racing monohull, in 12 knots of wind it’s about the same speed as a CM1200 12M / 40’ racing monohull, and the advantage of the trimaran continues to build as the wind builds, because it has many times more righting moment than the monohull. On the other hand, monohulls take less of a speed penalty if you load them down. I explain more of the pros and cons in this video Race to Alaska Best Boat ruclips.net/video/qzdpNOk2oxc/видео.html
James Wharram who sailed thousands of miles in Polynesian catamarans of his own design disliked any projection from his boats as he said it could trip the boat up and capsize it on the face of a wave. He wanted the boat to slide down the wave front as easily as possible. His boats did not go well to windward but have sailed safely many thousands of miles.
Good observation! The footage in this particular video is from the Rhoute de Rhumb in 2018 when IDEC sport did have partially lifting foils on the floats and T foils on the rudder. However they were added in 2018, and the speed record of 894 NM at 37.25 knots was from 2016 before they had what would be considered foils by today's standards as you can see in this video ruclips.net/video/3FB0HUpcU3o/видео.html.
You could, but trimarans tend to be very weight sensitive, so common approaches are 1) moving the crew from side to side or 2) canting the rig (mast) towards the wind to compensate for heeling of the boat. Maybe canting rigs could be a topic for another video!
@@SailingTipsCa Yes, the 100-foot Ultims have tilting masts as well as rotation ability, not to mention foils. They have all the weapons in the sailing arsenal. I understand the newest most advanced of these have exceeded 50 kts in trial runs..
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks that is interesting information. I was thinking about weigth that is already aboard and has a different function already, like crew, rigs, batteries even supplies. If they are stored in a box that can be moved from one side to the other side.
@@HansKeesom Moving stacks of sails from side to side is pretty common in racing monohulls, because that can be done with relative safety inside the boat. I’ve never heard of it in multihulls though, as the centre hull is pretty skinny, and moving things across the nets can be dangerous in rough seas.
Yes that is definitely also a factor, but I stayed away from that in the video because it depends on how many hulls the trimaran has in the water, and on the design of those hulls. For example, with one hull in the water (i.e. flying the main and windward hull) the trimaran would definitely have much less wetted surface than a monohull, but with two or three hulls in the water that's less obvious, because some main hulls have skinny V-shaped bottoms and some have flat planing bottoms.
Trimarans Vs Catamaran PowerBoats; Catamarans can be achievable as faster than the Trimarans Powerboat Sailing; Trimarans are now become the living testimony in all sportscraft due to effective ratios in the proper hydrodynamics and the efficient geometric displacements in one facets compare to Catamaran sailboats that troubled onto their geometric coefficiencies even to potent with achieving its effective hydrodynamic trimmed, as though the Catamaran's foul designs were their sails were actually located in between through their twin hulls whilst the Trimarans can shift their three hulls onto two functions of inertia whilst the center hulls were masts are located most one effective Trimaran designs were the Corsair Marine as which the daggerboard were in the centerhull whilst some other Trimaran contenders were foils can lift their vessels up to the hydrofoil oriented. Legacy; Trimarans were allegedly the successors in the boat used in "Paraw Regatta" in the Visayas, Philippines🇵🇭💯👍😎❤️💝
For a sailing catamaran to be fast it really needs to be flying a hull (i.e. sailing on one hull only), and at that point it's a very fine balancing act to keep it there, and very bad when things go wrong! On the other hand most (non-foiling) sailing trimarans are generally fastest with the windward hull in the air, the leeward hull carrying most of the weight of the boat, and the centre hull just skimming along the surface. And because they are generally wider than catamarans it's easier and more forgiving for the crew to keep them in this state for longer periods of time. The issue of lifting foils in trimaran floats is also somewhat unsettled in my mind. Obviously the America's Cup and SailGP boats are very fast, but they are also sailing in a very specific set of conditions. I know several people with lifting foils in their trimaran floats and they say the results can vary. Also, the Australian OMR rating system doesn't rate foils, so if they were highly beneficial the foiling boats would be cleaning up, but they aren't. Nor are the full foiling Ultimes (100 foot trimarans) breaking IDEC Sport's non-foiling 24 hour distance record from 2016!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Not to take anything away from this monumental achievement, IDEC Sport's record was largely achieved due to unprecedented favorable weather conditions. The team experienced what amounted to a once in a lifetime set of conditions that allowed it to sail without significant delays on its route. No doubt, it was and still is a very fast boat, but in no way is it higher performing than the latest foiling Ultimes or even some that aren't the latest greatest like Gitana 17. The Gitana team tried to set a world record in early 2021 but had to abandon the attempt due to component breakage. The Gitana team has been winning every race it enters for the past couple of years and remains the best contender for the JV trophy _but_ it requires a lot of luck both in weather and obstacle avoidance.
@@jamesaron1967 Yes IDEC Sport benefitted greatly from perfect weather, Francis Joyon, and an amazing crew! I agree that Gitana 17 is probably the best contender for the JV trophy, but interestingly no foiling boat has beaten Banque Populaire or IDEC’s non-foiling 24 hour achievements either. Gitana was hoping to win the JV not by having higher top speeds but higher average speeds in the more moderate regions: How Fast Can a Foiling Sailboat Actually Go?!?!? ruclips.net/video/SWGBgR_Np3E/видео.html
@@SailingTipsCa True, higher average speeds is what the Ultim teams and other classes like IMOCA 60 are aiming for. The brand new foils Sodebo just installed on their Ultim is intended to increase average speeds. Actually, in the case of the larger trimaran classes, the skippers many times need to reduce speeds not to break anything. It's also harder to avoid hitting objects the faster they go. As far as setting records with the new foilers, it's only a matter of time. Semi-lifting curved daggerboards on IDEC Sport, ex-Spindrift and on the Ocean 50s have been around for a while, the full-flight hydrofoils have only been used in the past 4 years or so. Those years have been a learning experience for all the teams and there's still a lot to R&D. That's not much time especially when you figure the last two years limited some racing and refining because of the pandemic. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.
@@The442nd The Corsair 880 is relatively new on the market so I think it has yet to fully establish itself but in my observation 1) it appears to have more cruisy amenities than previous Corsair/Farrier models and 2) this comes with the price of it being quite heavy compared to previous Corsair/Farrier models. At that price point I would personally consider looking for a used F-32/33 which would also have good cruising amenities but also a proven track record, and more weight conscious for the size of the boat. Here's a beautiful example of a used F-33 for a similar price: www.scanboat.com/en/boat-market/boats/flerskrogsbaad-farrier-f33r-17457387. Note that the F-32/33 is substantially more boat than the F-31/C-31 and C 880.
@@The442nd The thing with boats is that composite hulls age very well if taken care of, so a 20 year old boat that has been well-maintained, systems upgraded can be just as good if not better as a new boat. The thing about boats that is different than other mass-produced products (cars for example) is that most production boats are still mostly hand-made and there is nowhere near the degree of automation and quality control as a car factory. So even a new boat requires a year or two of “fixing” everything that wasn’t quite right from the manufacturer.
Yes a monohull is "self-depowering" in a gust, whereby a trimaran requires the crew to either steer the boat relative to the wind or ease the sheets. There's also a different mindset when sailing a trimaran: With a monohull you're basically trying to get it to go as fast as possible all the time, but with a trimaran you're only sailing as fast as it's safe to go, so more crew diligence is required.
Over the last 10 years or so I've been working on a new hull shoe design which has applications for all multihull types. I have variations for each type of hull; small sailing cat, large sailing cat, trimarans, small power cats and large power cats. The advantages of this hull shape are performance with simplicity. I'm at the stage where I need more collaberation. Are there any interested?
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for your reply. No I don't have a website or anything publicly available details. I'm not sure how go about that and at the same time protect the design information. I need advice.
@@SailingTipsCa This generic hull design could be best or most simplistically described as a hybred of symmetric and asymmetric hulls, if that makes any sense.
@@SailingTipsCa I thought I had some interest from Tony Grainger but he didn't foĺlow through with shown interest despite not getting any detail about my hull design. Perhaps he thought I had nothing extraordinary or new to show. The thing with multi hulls is that because they are such a relatively recent design in popular boating, there is still room for innovation. I have come to this 'out of the box' design concept because my influences have come from other watersport design that I had been involved with for most of my working life. This turns out to be both a positive and a negative. Positive, because I could think outside the box of boating orthodoxy. And negative, in that I am not involved in the boating world for the purposes of marketing and manufacture.
Your explanation for the righting moment of a monohull is wrong. While the keel does provide much of the writing moment this depends on the mass of the keel multiplied by its distance from the boat's centre of gravity and the sine of the heel angle. The reason racing monohulls are wide is both to allow them to plane and because when heeled over the leeway side of the boat is forced into the water and the windward side out. This moves the centre of boyancy to leeward providing additional righting moment.
You're right that the shape of the hull contributes to the righting moment of the monohull, and the hull shape of flatter monohulls does contribute more to the righting moment than a rounded hull. I did allude to that without being as descriptive as you were, so I'm not sure how I was "wrong" - can you help me understand? The key point I was trying to make was that maximum righting moment for monohulls is typically somewhere between 45-90 degrees, when the mast is more horizontal and vertical and the sails are spilling wind, while with a trimaran the maximum righting moment is closer to 20-25 degrees, when the mast is still mostly upright and the sails are generating a huge amount of lift.
Yes wetted surface friction plays a big role especially in lighter winds and at lower speeds, but wave friction overtakes it as boat speed increases, so planing hulls or long skinny hulls are the ticket for overcoming that!
I know - I still sail on monohulls periodically and enjoy a good downwind blast on a sport boat, but I’d have trouble owning anything but a trimaran again!
The points and comparisons in the video are for their non-foiling configurations. I should have clarified in the video that the footage is from the Rhoute de Rhumb in 2018 when IDEC Sport did have partially lifting foils, however they were added after they averaged 894 NM at 37.25 knots over 24 hours during their 2016 round-the-world record trip. You can see the 2016 configuration in this video ruclips.net/video/3FB0HUpcU3o/видео.html. Interestingly no boat with or without foils has beaten this record since! The reason is that foils start to cavitate at around 45 knots, which causes loss of lift and can damage the foils. So a foiling boat can’t safely go faster than IDEC Sport did for extended periods, although they can maintain higher average speeds with less wind. I’m planning a video on this in the near future!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for your reply, its interesting with the foils cavitating too much over 47kts, I wonder is that specific to this particular class of yacht with its weight and foil size/shape? For basically any rigid wing or foil the flow will eventually separate from the low pressure area of the foil surface once a given maximum speed for the particular foil shape has been exceeded, AC75 boats exceed 50kts at times I wonder if this is also an issue for them?
@@ats-3693 My understanding is that any of the typical NACA-based foil shapes that work well under ~50 knots will cavitate above ~50 knots. It’s kind of like a sound barrier in the water. This is why it’s such a struggle for any foiling boat (e.g. Hydroptere, AC50, AC75) to get above ~50 knots and if they do their foils will likely be cavitating like crazy. The AC50s/AC75s can push this limit because they are sailing inshore in relatively controlled environments with rescue and/or spare foils close at hand. Foiling near 50 knots in the open ocean is just too dangerous, so the fully-foiling boats (e.g. Gitana 17) that have tried to break IDEC Sport’s record have tried to do so by maintaining higher average speeds in the “slower” parts of the circumnavigation. To foil above ~50 knots you need an entirely different supercavitating foil design like the Vestas Sailrocket, but those don’t work particularly well under ~50 knots.
@@SailingTipsCa Thank you again for taking the time to write a great answer, and yes that makes perfect sense every foil shaped wing or blade only performs optimally within a given range of speeds, too fast and the fluid separates from the surface of the low pressure area and if too slow then the foil won't produce the lift that is required, which is obviously not going to be ideal with an open ocean racing yacht.
@@ats-3693 Thanks for watching - here’s the foiling video: How Fast Can A Foiling Sailboat Actually Go?!?!? ruclips.net/video/SWGBgR_Np3E/видео.html P.S. You’re not the only one to ask this question!!!
Catamarans can also be very fast, especially if you can fly the windward hull out of the water so you’re only sailing on one hull. But that’s a precarious way to sail, especially across an ocean! Trimarans on the other hand tend to sail with the centre hull planing or just skimming the surface, and the fact that they are generally wider than catamarans gives them more righting moment while at the same time being more forgiving to sail, especially when pushed hard. Maybe a good topic for another video!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for the info, and yeah, flying one hull of a cat across an ocean would be.....exciting. I guess what I'm getting at, is this, cat and tri same beam, so righting moment lines up, which would be quicker? (Thinking about drag of the hull area in the water) Also, taking into account those sailing speed record boats. You know the ones that can only sail one direction due to "pontoon" location in relation to mast. Add in traditional sails vs solid wing mains..... Definitely worth exploring I think.
@@petert3355 Trimarans normally have a length/width ratio of ~75% (e.g. 40 foot trimaran will be about 32 feet wide) and catamarans normally have a length/width ratio of ~50% (e.g. a 40 foot catamaran will be about 22 feet wide). If you made the catamaran as wide as the trimaran it would be very difficult to fly the windward hull out of the water and it would most certainly be slower than the trimaran due to increased drag of two big hulls in the water, as compared to the trimaran with one small hull in the water and one big hull planing (and the windward hull in the air). Solid wing masts are also more efficient than fabric sails, but there are practical limitations like you can't easily reef them, or take them down for the night without a crane to lift the boat out of the water!
Worth noting that IDEC sport doesn't just hold the world record for global circumnavigation in a sailing vessel, it holds the world record for global circumnavigation in any kind of watercraft! Earthrace holds the powerboat record, which is more than 20 days slower
Cool - I didn’t know that it was for any type of boat! But I guess a powerboat would require LOTS of fuel to sustain those speeds!
Very interesting video! You have forgotten to mention the weight advantage, Idec weigts 18t while Comanche 31t, knowing that the boat need to displace this amount of water to go forward, it makes a lot of water drag reduction for the trimaran.
You’re absolutely right! Lots of monohulls with fixed keels have up to 40% of their weight as lead ballast at the bottom of their keels. You can reduce that with canting keels like Comanche has, but you can get rid of it altogether by using floatation for righting moment instead of lead weights. Multihulls also can and often do sail with fewer crew for the same reason, as there is less need for “rail meat” to keep the mast upright.
Love your stuff. Thanks for your contributions - definitely getting used here in Lake Michigan!
Awesome - thanks so much!!!
Thank you for this helpful info!
Glad it was helpful!
Can somebody please write down what is that barrier called when mentioning the over 8 to 1 beam ratio. Thank you !
Do you mean the theoretical “hull speed” limit? Boats that are more than 8 times longer than they are wide can more easily exceed that.
@@SailingTipsCa : At about 2:35 it is the ,,hull speed barrier". Now I understand clearly, thank you !
@@pocketninjahun Yes wider boats need to get up on the water and plane to go faster, like a water ski boat, but long skinny boats can also exceed the “hull speed barrier” without planing!
The speed of any vehicle is a relation of its weight and the power of its drivetrain. Boats are unique vehicles in the sense that they are kind of plowing themselves to a soft medium called water. So the shape of the hull in relation to the total weight becomes an important factor. But also its drivetrain wich is the windage of the rigging and sails is an important factor as is the angle towards the appearant wind. All in all there is enough combinations possible to understand why sailing is such an obsession and new forms and shapes have been developed ever since man started to sail.
Yes there are so many variables in sailing it’s really a lifelong learning project!
Nice video! We love trimarans!
I know they're amazing!!!
Also note the boards, significant lift is provided by these immersed 'wings' adding righting moment and reducing hull drag. Some tris also cant the mast more to windward, (increased projected area), and rotate the mast, reducing aero-drag and increasing lift. Weight tends to be closely attached to drag so keeping things light on multihulls is almost a religion. As forces are so high good engineering is needed for all types of craft. Of course you can flip a multi , and sink a mono...
I agree with you on all points! I did consider adding features like rotating and canting masts to this video, but decided to stick to fundamentals (e.g. hull design) and discuss those things in future videos.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks - glad it was helpful!
Excellent!
Glad you liked it!
Jesus I can't believe I found such hi quality information in just few seconds! Your channel must blow up congratulations, hope you continue always bringing that quality of content!
Thanks so much for the kind words! Glad you’re enjoying the channel!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Dude I'm watching more of your videos, and by now I don't know if you already told this but I don't know exactly why catamarans are more weight sensible than monohulls and how trimarans behaves compared to then about this (except few aspects like about speed and stability but almost nothing compared to reasonable understood information I must say ) and what's the thing about catamarans hulls pointing down and trimarans more likely monohulls can point up, and so... Pretty much basic concepts I guess but coudn't find clear information about it yet, I think this and other basics could be an interesting subject to some video. Thank you!
@@wendelgyutb Those are all great ideas for future videos - thanks for the suggestions!!!
Great explanations!
Thanks for watching - glad it was helpful!!!
Thanks for the feedback on my comments! I am looking forward to future videos on this interesting area of sailing. It is of interest that the sailing record around the world is hard to match in a powered vessel. (Weight of fuel) Much of the current speeds in both monohulls and multis (and for sure foilers) is due to advances in materials and composite technology...(you might explore that). Unfortunately for most of us, costs are out of reach by far!
Yes advancements in materials and technology make a big difference! One huge advancement in technology that is readily accessible to most of us is high-tech lines like Dyneema - check out this video: The Amazing Lightweight Rope That Can Lift A Car!!! ruclips.net/video/9shiekaQNT0/видео.html. In conjunction with modern high-tech sails you can really transform even an old boat!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Very good tip! Have some spectra lines on my old boats (18 sq. meter cat), and a Chris White design outrigger canoe, but could use even more...
@@chrislatchem1854 Samson Amsteel is uncoated Dyneema line which isn’t necessarily targeted at the marine industry so is pretty reasonably priced!
Another superbly clear explanation. You're an excellent teacher.
This video does assume some basic knowledge of sailing theory, of course.
It's worth noting that both boats in the video are aided by foils, doesn't change the fact that the trimaran a is far more efficient form than monohull. It's also the most stable form, even better than a catamaran.
Thanks for your kind words, and glad it makes sense! If it’s not obvious I’m a huge fan of trimarans and their speed potential after having spent thousands of hours on “slow” monohulls. Weight is key though - a heavy multihull will disappoint!
@@SailingTipsCa Due to physics, weight hurts performance, but multihulls have the advantage of getting righting force from structure instead of ballast.
Certainly it's possible to build overweight mutlihulls. Condomarans come to mind. Or Neels... :)
The idea of creating incredibly advanced monhulls then weighing them down with ballast seems contradictory, especially when better solutions exist in multihulls.
@@LoanwordEggcorn I completely agree with you on all accounts!
You mentioned ANOTHER video about multis? Name please? Thx!
Do you mean right at the end of the video? If so it’s this one: Why Don’t SailGP Boats Use Spinnakers?!?!? ruclips.net/video/L73A8XuxzOs/видео.html
Did you forgetting about canting keels....
Comanche has a canting keel and IDEC Sport is still much faster because even with the canting keel IDEC Sport has much more righting moment.
Using crude math, Comanche's keel-based righting moment is approximately the weight of the bulb of about 10 tonnes times the 6.5m displacement (~keel length), or 650,000 kNm.
Compare this to IDEC Sport's righting moment which is approximately the weight of the main and windward hulls, or ~75% of of the 18 tonne total displacement, or 13.5 tonnes, times the 11.25m beam, or 1,520,000 kNm.
So even with the canting keel, IDEC Sport still has almost 3 times more righting moment than Comanche (based on bulb alone) and IDEC Sport only weighs half as much.
Comanche does also have 6.5 tonnes of water ballast, which increases righting moment to around 1,000,000kNm, but that's still much less than IDEC Sport and now she's also packing around 6.5 tonnes of extra ballast.
There is much more complexity to these numbers that I've shown here, but the point is to show that there is no way for a monohull to create anywhere near the righting moment of a trimaran.
You didn’t mention the weight difference. If the trimaran and the monohull were the same weight, the speed difference would be minimal, I think. Try adding a lump of lead on the dagger board of the trimaran, and it would slow down significantly.
Yes Comanche is quite a bit heavier than IDEC Sport, however I have an interesting comparison much closer to home: My F-82R trimaran is about the same length, weight, and has a very similar sail plan to a Cheetah 30 sport boat that I also did lots of racing on. Both boats are fast off the wind, however the F-82R trimaran is significantly faster as the wind moves forward of the beam because of the use of flotation versus ballast for righting moment. The Cheetah gets knocked over as the wind moves forward, but the F-82R just goes faster!
@@SailingTipsCa Interesting comparison. So I think we are both right. The extra weight on a trimaran slows it down, but, as you say, the initial stability of a multihull gives it more power to windward. I have only ever sailed a Hobie cat, so what do I know. Not much. I do know however that reducing or adding weight on my 2 meter radio controlled trimaran significantly affects its speed. You should check out Perthmini40man on RUclips to see some exciting foiling videos. Cheers, Malin
@@malin5468 You’re absolutely right that excess weight has a huge impact on trimaran performance! But as you noted there is also a huge difference in initial stability. Here are some figures: the F-82R and Cheetah 30 both weigh about 2,400lbs, plus 3 crew to round up to 3,000 lbs each. The Cheetah 30 has a 1,000 lb torpedo bulb on a 7’ keel for a maximum righting moment of about 7,000 lbs, but that’s when the keel is horizontal, and much less with the mast vertical. The F-82R leeward float and beams weigh about 500 lbs, with enough flotation to lift the rest of the boat and crew (about 2,500 lbs) out of the water, so with a 10’ lever arm (distance from float to mast) the maximum righting moment of the F-82R is about 25,000 lbs and that’s with the mast almost vertical! Thanks for watching and thanks for the video tip!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for the very useful info about the respective righting moments of the mono and multihulls. Is there any point at which the drag of the bulb on the Cheetah makes it nosedive when sailing downwind? This happens with 10 Rater RC boats.
@@malin5468 Not really but there are some big differences 1) the 10 Rater has a very tall mast and long keel compared to the length of the forefoot of the hull, so there’s lots of leverage from the mast to pull the bow under. The Cheetah (and most boats) has a comparatively short mast and keel. 2) The Cheetah flies an asymmetric spinnaker from the end of a long bowsprit which provides substantial upward lift on the bow 3) The Cheetah has a relatively flat bottom and hard chines and planes like a water ski boat, which moves the waterline aft at speed 4) We move the crew as far aft as possible in these conditions. The Cheetah does wipe out downwind, but it’s more often a typical broach where the rudder gets overpowered like in this video: Five Reasons to Fly a Spinnaker and Jib Together
ruclips.net/video/_HjLyupVRGc/видео.html.
Worth mentioning the double keel or adjustable keel boats
Comanche does have a canting keel, which enables her to produce more righting moment with less weight in the bulb. It definitely helps over a fixed keel, but still not as effective as using flotation and the weight of the boat as righting moment like a trimaran!
Mbri smangat utk anak2 muda
LoL... wut?
Which boat goes to windward better ?
I haven’t sailed on either of these but I would expect IDEC Sport to be significantly faster on all points of sail. There’s a common misconception that multihulls don’t sail very well to windward. Certainly some of them don’t (e.g. cruising catamarans) but some are very good to weather. My F-82R trimaran (8.2M / 27’) is faster on all points of sail than any monohull of the same length that I’ve encountered. In winds under 8 knots it’s about the same speed as a Flying Tiger 10M / 33’ racing monohull, in 12 knots of wind it’s about the same speed as a CM1200 12M / 40’ racing monohull, and the advantage of the trimaran continues to build as the wind builds, because it has many times more righting moment than the monohull. On the other hand, monohulls take less of a speed penalty if you load them down. I explain more of the pros and cons in this video Race to Alaska Best Boat ruclips.net/video/qzdpNOk2oxc/видео.html
James Wharram who sailed thousands of miles in Polynesian catamarans of his own design disliked any projection from his boats as he said it could trip the boat up and capsize it on the face of a wave. He wanted the boat to slide down the wave front as easily as possible. His boats did not go well to windward but have sailed safely many thousands of miles.
Yes that's a very valid concern!!! And interesting how different designers gravitate towards different styles!
I GET IT. GREAT VID!! I WOULD ALWAYS CHOOSE TRIMARAN BECAUSE I'M A LAND LUBBER AND WOULD NEED THAT EXTRA STABILITY. 💪😃👍❤🇺🇸
Once you sail a trimaran you'll never go back!!!
It’s also significant that this trimaran has foils and Comanche does not.
Good observation! The footage in this particular video is from the Rhoute de Rhumb in 2018 when IDEC sport did have partially lifting foils on the floats and T foils on the rudder. However they were added in 2018, and the speed record of 894 NM at 37.25 knots was from 2016 before they had what would be considered foils by today's standards as you can see in this video ruclips.net/video/3FB0HUpcU3o/видео.html.
Could a trimaran move a weight from one side to the other to be even more upright?
You could, but trimarans tend to be very weight sensitive, so common approaches are 1) moving the crew from side to side or 2) canting the rig (mast) towards the wind to compensate for heeling of the boat. Maybe canting rigs could be a topic for another video!
@@SailingTipsCa Yes, the 100-foot Ultims have tilting masts as well as rotation ability, not to mention foils. They have all the weapons in the sailing arsenal. I understand the newest most advanced of these have exceeded 50 kts in trial runs..
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks that is interesting information. I was thinking about weigth that is already aboard and has a different function already, like crew, rigs, batteries even supplies. If they are stored in a box that can be moved from one side to the other side.
@@HansKeesom Moving stacks of sails from side to side is pretty common in racing monohulls, because that can be done with relative safety inside the boat. I’ve never heard of it in multihulls though, as the centre hull is pretty skinny, and moving things across the nets can be dangerous in rough seas.
Total underwater drag has got to be somewhat higher with the monohull considering wetted surface, bulb keel etc
Yes that is definitely also a factor, but I stayed away from that in the video because it depends on how many hulls the trimaran has in the water, and on the design of those hulls. For example, with one hull in the water (i.e. flying the main and windward hull) the trimaran would definitely have much less wetted surface than a monohull, but with two or three hulls in the water that's less obvious, because some main hulls have skinny V-shaped bottoms and some have flat planing bottoms.
Trimarans Vs Catamaran
PowerBoats;
Catamarans can be achievable as faster than the Trimarans Powerboat
Sailing;
Trimarans are now become the living testimony in all sportscraft due to effective ratios in the proper hydrodynamics and the efficient geometric displacements in one facets compare to Catamaran sailboats that troubled onto their geometric coefficiencies even to potent with achieving its effective hydrodynamic trimmed,
as though the Catamaran's foul designs were their sails were actually located in between through their twin hulls whilst the Trimarans can shift their three hulls onto two functions of inertia whilst the center hulls were masts are located
most one effective Trimaran designs were the Corsair Marine as which the daggerboard were in the centerhull whilst some other Trimaran contenders were foils can lift their vessels up to the hydrofoil oriented.
Legacy;
Trimarans were allegedly the successors in the boat used in "Paraw Regatta" in the Visayas, Philippines🇵🇭💯👍😎❤️💝
For a sailing catamaran to be fast it really needs to be flying a hull (i.e. sailing on one hull only), and at that point it's a very fine balancing act to keep it there, and very bad when things go wrong!
On the other hand most (non-foiling) sailing trimarans are generally fastest with the windward hull in the air, the leeward hull carrying most of the weight of the boat, and the centre hull just skimming along the surface. And because they are generally wider than catamarans it's easier and more forgiving for the crew to keep them in this state for longer periods of time.
The issue of lifting foils in trimaran floats is also somewhat unsettled in my mind. Obviously the America's Cup and SailGP boats are very fast, but they are also sailing in a very specific set of conditions. I know several people with lifting foils in their trimaran floats and they say the results can vary. Also, the Australian OMR rating system doesn't rate foils, so if they were highly beneficial the foiling boats would be cleaning up, but they aren't. Nor are the full foiling Ultimes (100 foot trimarans) breaking IDEC Sport's non-foiling 24 hour distance record from 2016!!!
@@SailingTipsCa Not to take anything away from this monumental achievement, IDEC Sport's record was largely achieved due to unprecedented favorable weather conditions. The team experienced what amounted to a once in a lifetime set of conditions that allowed it to sail without significant delays on its route. No doubt, it was and still is a very fast boat, but in no way is it higher performing than the latest foiling Ultimes or even some that aren't the latest greatest like Gitana 17. The Gitana team tried to set a world record in early 2021 but had to abandon the attempt due to component breakage. The Gitana team has been winning every race it enters for the past couple of years and remains the best contender for the JV trophy _but_ it requires a lot of luck both in weather and obstacle avoidance.
@@jamesaron1967 Yes IDEC Sport benefitted greatly from perfect weather, Francis Joyon, and an amazing crew! I agree that Gitana 17 is probably the best contender for the JV trophy, but interestingly no foiling boat has beaten Banque Populaire or IDEC’s non-foiling 24 hour achievements either. Gitana was hoping to win the JV not by having higher top speeds but higher average speeds in the more moderate regions: How Fast Can a Foiling Sailboat Actually Go?!?!? ruclips.net/video/SWGBgR_Np3E/видео.html
@@SailingTipsCa True, higher average speeds is what the Ultim teams and other classes like IMOCA 60 are aiming for. The brand new foils Sodebo just installed on their Ultim is intended to increase average speeds. Actually, in the case of the larger trimaran classes, the skippers many times need to reduce speeds not to break anything. It's also harder to avoid hitting objects the faster they go.
As far as setting records with the new foilers, it's only a matter of time. Semi-lifting curved daggerboards on IDEC Sport, ex-Spindrift and on the Ocean 50s have been around for a while, the full-flight hydrofoils have only been used in the past 4 years or so. Those years have been a learning experience for all the teams and there's still a lot to R&D. That's not much time especially when you figure the last two years limited some racing and refining because of the pandemic. I guess we'll find out sooner or later.
@@jamesaron1967 I agree it’s only a matter of time. It will be interesting to see what happens in the Route de Rhum!
You need to change your channel name to "Sailing Jedi"
LOL I still always learn something every time I go out!!!
@@SailingTipsCa In you opinion, is a new Corsair 880 worth it's $140,000.00 price tag?
@@The442nd The Corsair 880 is relatively new on the market so I think it has yet to fully establish itself but in my observation 1) it appears to have more cruisy amenities than previous Corsair/Farrier models and 2) this comes with the price of it being quite heavy compared to previous Corsair/Farrier models. At that price point I would personally consider looking for a used F-32/33 which would also have good cruising amenities but also a proven track record, and more weight conscious for the size of the boat. Here's a beautiful example of a used F-33 for a similar price: www.scanboat.com/en/boat-market/boats/flerskrogsbaad-farrier-f33r-17457387. Note that the F-32/33 is substantially more boat than the F-31/C-31 and C 880.
@@SailingTipsCa ouch!!! 165K for a boat almost 20 years old? I'm clearly dry as a cotton ball
@@The442nd The thing with boats is that composite hulls age very well if taken care of, so a 20 year old boat that has been well-maintained, systems upgraded can be just as good if not better as a new boat.
The thing about boats that is different than other mass-produced products (cars for example) is that most production boats are still mostly hand-made and there is nowhere near the degree of automation and quality control as a car factory.
So even a new boat requires a year or two of “fixing” everything that wasn’t quite right from the manufacturer.
You left out the fact trimaran sounds like Weimaran.
Thus the extra speed.
LOL - you're right!!! The best dogs and the best boats!!!
A monohull will always be safer because it spills wind, a trimaran can capsize if it gets too powered up.
Yes a monohull is "self-depowering" in a gust, whereby a trimaran requires the crew to either steer the boat relative to the wind or ease the sheets. There's also a different mindset when sailing a trimaran: With a monohull you're basically trying to get it to go as fast as possible all the time, but with a trimaran you're only sailing as fast as it's safe to go, so more crew diligence is required.
Over the last 10 years or so I've been working on a new hull shoe design which has applications for all multihull types. I have variations for each type of hull; small sailing cat, large sailing cat, trimarans, small power cats and large power cats. The advantages of this hull shape are performance with simplicity. I'm at the stage where I need more collaberation. Are there any interested?
Sounds interesting! Do you have a website or any publicly-available details on your project?
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for your reply. No I don't have a website or anything publicly available details. I'm not sure how go about that and at the same time protect the design information. I need advice.
@@SailingTipsCa This generic hull design could be best or most simplistically described as a hybred of symmetric and asymmetric hulls, if that makes any sense.
@@robertcain3426 Might be interesting to talk to a multihull designer, like Tony Grainger or Francois Perus?
@@SailingTipsCa I thought I had some interest from Tony Grainger but he didn't foĺlow through with shown interest despite not getting any detail about my hull design. Perhaps he thought I had nothing extraordinary or new to show. The thing with multi hulls is that because they are such a relatively recent design in popular boating, there is still room for innovation. I have come to this 'out of the box' design concept because my influences have come from other watersport design that I had been involved with for most of my working life. This turns out to be both a positive and a negative. Positive, because I could think outside the box of boating orthodoxy. And negative, in that I am not involved in the boating world for the purposes of marketing and manufacture.
Your explanation for the righting moment of a monohull is wrong. While the keel does provide much of the writing moment this depends on the mass of the keel multiplied by its distance from the boat's centre of gravity and the sine of the heel angle. The reason racing monohulls are wide is both to allow them to plane and because when heeled over the leeway side of the boat is forced into the water and the windward side out. This moves the centre of boyancy to leeward providing additional righting moment.
You're right that the shape of the hull contributes to the righting moment of the monohull, and the hull shape of flatter monohulls does contribute more to the righting moment than a rounded hull. I did allude to that without being as descriptive as you were, so I'm not sure how I was "wrong" - can you help me understand?
The key point I was trying to make was that maximum righting moment for monohulls is typically somewhere between 45-90 degrees, when the mast is more horizontal and vertical and the sails are spilling wind, while with a trimaran the maximum righting moment is closer to 20-25 degrees, when the mast is still mostly upright and the sails are generating a huge amount of lift.
Old sailing rule, decrease in wetted surface area, the faster the boat.
Yes wetted surface friction plays a big role especially in lighter winds and at lower speeds, but wave friction overtakes it as boat speed increases, so planing hulls or long skinny hulls are the ticket for overcoming that!
Once you start sailing multi hull, you will never go back
I know - I still sail on monohulls periodically and enjoy a good downwind blast on a sport boat, but I’d have trouble owning anything but a trimaran again!
Huh no wonder Indonesian fisherman boat looks like that
They were definitely multihull pioneers! Many multihull sailors around the world still use Polynesian names for floats (amas) and beams (akas).
The particular comparison of the two boats in the video is meaningless though, given that the trimaran is a foiler.
The points and comparisons in the video are for their non-foiling configurations. I should have clarified in the video that the footage is from the Rhoute de Rhumb in 2018 when IDEC Sport did have partially lifting foils, however they were added after they averaged 894 NM at 37.25 knots over 24 hours during their 2016 round-the-world record trip. You can see the 2016 configuration in this video ruclips.net/video/3FB0HUpcU3o/видео.html. Interestingly no boat with or without foils has beaten this record since! The reason is that foils start to cavitate at around 45 knots, which causes loss of lift and can damage the foils. So a foiling boat can’t safely go faster than IDEC Sport did for extended periods, although they can maintain higher average speeds with less wind. I’m planning a video on this in the near future!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for your reply, its interesting with the foils cavitating too much over 47kts, I wonder is that specific to this particular class of yacht with its weight and foil size/shape? For basically any rigid wing or foil the flow will eventually separate from the low pressure area of the foil surface once a given maximum speed for the particular foil shape has been exceeded, AC75 boats exceed 50kts at times I wonder if this is also an issue for them?
@@ats-3693 My understanding is that any of the typical NACA-based foil shapes that work well under ~50 knots will cavitate above ~50 knots. It’s kind of like a sound barrier in the water. This is why it’s such a struggle for any foiling boat (e.g. Hydroptere, AC50, AC75) to get above ~50 knots and if they do their foils will likely be cavitating like crazy. The AC50s/AC75s can push this limit because they are sailing inshore in relatively controlled environments with rescue and/or spare foils close at hand. Foiling near 50 knots in the open ocean is just too dangerous, so the fully-foiling boats (e.g. Gitana 17) that have tried to break IDEC Sport’s record have tried to do so by maintaining higher average speeds in the “slower” parts of the circumnavigation. To foil above ~50 knots you need an entirely different supercavitating foil design like the Vestas Sailrocket, but those don’t work particularly well under ~50 knots.
@@SailingTipsCa Thank you again for taking the time to write a great answer, and yes that makes perfect sense every foil shaped wing or blade only performs optimally within a given range of speeds, too fast and the fluid separates from the surface of the low pressure area and if too slow then the foil won't produce the lift that is required, which is obviously not going to be ideal with an open ocean racing yacht.
@@ats-3693 Thanks for watching - here’s the foiling video: How Fast Can A Foiling Sailboat Actually Go?!?!?
ruclips.net/video/SWGBgR_Np3E/видео.html P.S. You’re not the only one to ask this question!!!
It would be good if you talked slower
Thanks for the feedback! Would it also help to add a transcript?
You mean HOW.
The 'why' is obvious.
#English
Obvious to some perhaps!!!
So why are Trimarans so much faster than Catamarans?
The discussion on righting moment is similar in both forms.
Catamarans can also be very fast, especially if you can fly the windward hull out of the water so you’re only sailing on one hull. But that’s a precarious way to sail, especially across an ocean! Trimarans on the other hand tend to sail with the centre hull planing or just skimming the surface, and the fact that they are generally wider than catamarans gives them more righting moment while at the same time being more forgiving to sail, especially when pushed hard. Maybe a good topic for another video!
@@SailingTipsCa Thanks for the info, and yeah, flying one hull of a cat across an ocean would be.....exciting.
I guess what I'm getting at, is this, cat and tri same beam, so righting moment lines up, which would be quicker? (Thinking about drag of the hull area in the water)
Also, taking into account those sailing speed record boats. You know the ones that can only sail one direction due to "pontoon" location in relation to mast.
Add in traditional sails vs solid wing mains.....
Definitely worth exploring I think.
@@petert3355 Trimarans normally have a length/width ratio of ~75% (e.g. 40 foot trimaran will be about 32 feet wide) and catamarans normally have a length/width ratio of ~50% (e.g. a 40 foot catamaran will be about 22 feet wide). If you made the catamaran as wide as the trimaran it would be very difficult to fly the windward hull out of the water and it would most certainly be slower than the trimaran due to increased drag of two big hulls in the water, as compared to the trimaran with one small hull in the water and one big hull planing (and the windward hull in the air).
Solid wing masts are also more efficient than fabric sails, but there are practical limitations like you can't easily reef them, or take them down for the night without a crane to lift the boat out of the water!