I always liked AOTC, it's not perfect by any means, but it's still enjoyable to me. It introduced me to Count Dooku, one of my top favorite characters and easily underrated. To this very day, I still have AOTC on VHS.
Honestly i always assumed Padme was supposed to die. Palpatine wanted her out of his way, that's why he tried to have her assassinated, that's why he got Anakin to get her out of the senate. Them falling in love always felt like an accident what Palpatine realized was infinitely better and he could tolerate her constant interference with his plans if it gave a more clear path to make Anakin fall. I view many of the things in Attack of the clones as events what made Palpatine say "Oh, that's way better, we're doing this instead"
I personally think to improve ATOC the deleted scenes shouldn’t have been deleted as some of them go more into Padme’s Life which make the romance more believe and they should have given Dooku more screen time because he’s a great character that is underused
I would say also that spliting Anakin and Obi Wan so long was a bad idea : you have two intricate plans to follow on (the separatist conspiracy and Anakin's love story + search for his mom), if you can somehow keep them at least a bit longer on the same screen it would help a lot in making the romance more natural. Remember Han and Leia had very few "romance dedicated" scenes, most of it came from chemistry in normal scenes
The deleted scene between Obi-wan Kenobi and the Jedi Master Librarian when they are looking at Dooku's statue and speaking of why Dooku left the Jedi Order which should have been kept in the movie. This scene was very strong and important to the plot.
I do regret that Christopher Lee was the main antagonist in Episode II, Lee is a very expensive actor, & if I was in charge & Chris was just too expensive I would have gone with a lesser known, cheaper actor. Or if you wanted Lee in the movies for promotional reasons, have Dooku be in the background while someone like Jango Fett or Grievous actually command the Separatist army.
That and I think they needed someone who could write better dialogue. Lucas was great at world building and crafting a consistent narrative. It's clear that the actors are way better than the script allowed them to be, even Hayden Christiansen, who's best moments occured when Anakin didn't speak.
I always saw it as an open-ended plan with 2 outcomes and possibilities: 1) the clones don't get discovered, Dooku invades, and Sheev just looks justified for having prepared a clone army in advance 2) the clones do get discovered (likely by a non-Jedi police as Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives and Obi just happened to have an underworld connection) and Sheev starts an "investigation" which reveals that Jedi master Syfo Dias ordered them, allowing Sheev to make a smear campaign on the Jedi to make them look like they were trying to take over the place, while Sheev simply confiscates the clones and uses them to "defend" the republic against the droids What happened was something in between
People always assume a movie villain's plan is exactly what happened, but if Palpatine is doing his job right, all scenarios should lead to his rise to power and the destruction of the Jedi.
I think it's an interesting idea that perhaps Jango had no idea of the larger plan and that Dooku set him up. When I look at it this way I feel a lot of sympathy toward Jango rather than just seeing him as one of the villains of The Clone Wars. I see him as a simple man trying to make his way in the universe and protect his son, and when he realises he might be in danger he panics and leaves with his son so that they can continue to live peacefully.
There's no reason Jango would have known the larger plan. He was simply a gun for hire, he had no actual risk or support for the civil war aside from it being his job at that moment and one that he got paid extremely well for.
If we take the Legends continuity into account, Jango knew the plan in its entirety and knew about Order 66 and was 100% for it because of his hatred towards the Jedi for wiping out his group, the True Mandalorians, and sending him into slavery. Taking Legends off the equation, and even canon, it still seems that Fett would’ve been deeper into the plan. Him attacking Kenobi in this case was not really because his peace was being interrupted, but because the jig was nearly up, and he had to act fast. Even in his interaction with Kenobi, you can feel the tension and anger he had building up. Within canon, the idea of him fighting his peoples ancient rivals still holds up.
The reason padme believes dooku is behind the assassination attempt is explained in the novelization (and arguably hinted at in the movie). In the book Padme isn't the first person to be attacked, there are other senators who have been killed by separatists (not necessarily by dooku though) regardless of their stance on the military creation act. But most importantly its explained that padme has just learned that Nute Gunray was acquitted again and that he may be working with Dooku and want revenge. There's still a little bit of this in the movie, as Sio Bibble talks about how gunray is still the viceroy of the trade federation after 4 trials.
Well even without that, I think Padme wouldn't be one to fall for Dooku's silver tongue and we know from a deleted scene that Dooku would like Naboo as a Separatist planet (which makes sense given its location near a pretty significant trade route being one of the only sources of renewable plasma, and the increased prominence of the planet post-invasion)
I always felt like the prequel movies were meant to be an hour longer, each, but everyone is afraid of making long movies, so things got crammed, trimmed and cut to make for shorter movies.
Ever since I saw this movie in theaters I thought it strange when nobody questioned a clone army being conveniently delivered to the republic when they needed it. I'd have had questions at least.
They did ask questions. But when you have over trillions of driods coming to end your government, you don't really have time to worry about that. Especially when you don't have an army or navy.
@@Icspiders247 The gungans had an army and they lost. The republic didn't have an army or navy. The driods the gungans fought were early models. So they all fail once the driod ship went don't. During the clone war that was no longer the case. The republic would have be fighting better and bigger models and versions of driods that didn't come out until the war. The gungans didn't even fight many driods. I don't believe that battle was even that big compared to other CW battles.
Of course it makes sense, it just didn't go the way he planned. He wanted to assassinate Padmé, thus eliminating opposition to the Military Creation Act and giving Palpatine the emergency powers, and have Jango intentionally leave clues that would lead the Jedi to Kamino where they'd discover the clone army (though Jango didn't expect to be found so soon. He was already planning to leave for Geonosis). However, the Battle of Geonosis was not a part of the plan. In fact, the war started sooner than Palpatine had planned. And no. Having Anakin and Padmé falling in love was not a part of the plan. And having Padmé support the Military Creation Act wouldn't make sense because she believes that offering violence will only result in more violence and also believes that the CIS wants to secede because the Republic doesn't care about Outer Rim worlds, something she saw for herself on Tatooine in Episode I.
@@emberfist8347 Actually, the saberdarts Jango used in SW Bounty Hunter weren't Kaminoan. But he did want to use the dart as a clue. Otherwise he would've just killed Zam with a blaster. And the Battle of Geonosis was not in the plan because the plan was to have the CIS launch a full-scale invasion. I seriously doubt Dooku would risk having the entire CIS council on a planet that the Jedi and the Republic are about to attack and possibly arrested, leaving the CIS without its financiers and leaders.
So Palpatine wants to have Padme assassinated... but suggests placing her under the protection of the Jedi? Brilliant idea. It's what caused the second attempt to fail. Jango is knowingly and intentionally leaving clues to be tracked back to Kamino? Really? He wants to be linked to the assassination attempts on a Senator? And, even if he's gone by the time Obi-Wan gets there, the Kaminoians are still going to tell them that it's Jango Fett. Not that they could hide it considering he was the clone template... And how long did Jango think he had to wait around? Just because Kamino is removed from the Jedi Archives doesn't mean Obi-Wan couldn't immediately go to some sort of specialist who could identify the dart... which he did. This all makes Jango look like an absolute idiot.
@@thorskywalker Palpatine had Padmé placed under protection of the Jedi because this time, if the assassination fails, the Jedi might be able to convince her to leave Coruscant since he failed to do so himself. He also wanted to appear genuinely concerned about her life. Getting Padmé away from Coruscant or killing her effectively has the same result, which is to prevent her from convincing the senate to oppose the Military Creation Act. And yes, Jango didn't mind being tied to the assassination of a senator. He was already a well-known criminal anyway. It's not like it would prevent him from receiving more bounties. "And, even if he's gone by the time Obi-Wan gets there, the Kaminoians are still going to tell them that it's Jango Fett. Not that they could hide it considering he was the clone template" That's not the point. He never expected to keep his identity a secret, he was just trying to avoid being arrested or killed. And he was going to seek asylum from the CIS, hence he went to Geonosis. "Just because Kamino is removed from the Jedi Archives doesn't mean Obi-Wan couldn't immediately go to some sort of specialist who could identify the dart... which he did." Yes, but he didn't expect Obi-Wan to find one so soon. How was he supposed to know Obi-Wan wouldn't have to do extensive research on the dart because he just happens to know a guy who just happens to be familiar with Kaminoan culture? And no, it didn't make Jango look like an idiot at all. You sound just like the people who call Anakin an idiot for falling to the dark side without considering the many factors that contributed to it. Jango simply underestimated Obi-Wan, likely because he's killed Jedi in the past.
@@thorskywalker Palpatine agreed to the Jedi because he wanted them appear to do something. Sooner or later someone would have found Kamino was missing from the archives as it is mentioned despite erasing the system from the memory because they didn’t shift how gravity pulled the stars around the system for the system they erased. It is clear Palpatine had the job be done somewhat sloppy so someone would notice and investigate. Jango himself is also shown using the darts before he accepted the cloning contract and Dexter mentions that it is one of Kamino’s non-clone exports. If it wasn’t a Jedi but say a Sector Ranger who investigated the planet, they wouldn’t have had the same access Obi-Wan did as the Jedi were the ones who had the contract. That person would have likely landed in some city that is far from the capital of Tipoca we see in the movie where Kaminoans typically have visits from non-client off worlders.
There is absolutely no evidence that Palpatine wanted Anakin to fall in love with Padme. With or without her Sidious planned to turn Skywalker to the dark side. There love for each other was just something palpatine discovered and used it againts him later on but he hadn't intentionally pushed it in any way. Dooku totally wanted her dead also. That's why she was sent in the arena instead of being held hostage. As for Jango Fett using saber darts with markings, remember Obiwan told Dex that the analysis droids couldn't identify them, so Fett was probably confident with Kamino erased that he wouldn't be found. However he didn't expect a Jedi to come across a restaurant owner who could identify the saber dart.
Jango wanted Kamino to be found by the Jedi, it just happened sooner than he expected. And Kamino was erased from the archives by Dooku ten years prior so that it wouldn't be found prematurely.
@@emberfist8347 I’m reading comments and see you’ve mentioned Star Wars Bounty Hunter multiple times. The thing is, that game came out after episode 2, and they just made Jango use the same weapons/armor he did in the movies. They weren’t gonna be like, “wait, this takes places before episode 2, does it make sense for Jango to use the kaminoan darts? Hmm.. let’s design an entirely different looking dart that no one will even notice, and if they do, they’ll think it’s a mistake anyway because it doesn’t match the farts Jango uses in the movie.” No, they just gave Jango the weapons and armor he had in the movie, bc obviously that’s what they’re gonna do. So I don’t think you can really use that to prove that he was using kaminoan darts before he became the clone template
@@johnmomberg5821 Except the movie itself mentioned that Jango wasn’t the only person who uses Saberdarts. Dexter saw them when he a prospector on Subterrel (later revealed to be Polis Massans in the EU) suggesting it is one of Kamino’s non-clone exports. Also his armor is the same because it didn’t come from Kamino. The Mandalorians were an established group in the EU by this point and it was also established that Boba was one of them by this point so it would make sense Jango would have similar armor. Jango’s backstory was even made to tie into Boba’s pre-ATOC backstory of being a Journyman Protector on Concord Dawn who was discharged for attacking a superior officer. Boba was using the alias Jaster Mateel at the time and the comic Jango Fett: Open Seasons established he was mentored by the real Jaster Mateel who was an actual Journeyman Protector.
@@emberfist8347 the thing about video games is you have to give it some leeway. There's stuff in there that normally wouldn't exactly makes sense with movies. Like Jango killing hundreds of people to get to one senator.
I watched Attack of the Clones a few weeks ago, and I don’t think the plan was for the war to start on Geonosis. Dooku and Palpatine talk about it in the hanger at the end how the incident at Geonosis sparked the galaxy wide conflict, but my takeaway is that it was supposed to happen soon to these events, but just slightly ahead of schedule. The dominos didn’t fall exactly as planned, but because of their strategic placement, however they did fall would lead to the same result.
I recently rewatched AOTC and I loved it, especially Anakin in it. He was whinny, arrogant and hotheaded. He was imperfect. Exactly how a character should start to set the stage for character development for the more mature version of Anakin in RotS. And the events in it make to 90% sense to me.
For me I think people are blinded by nostalgia. Yes his character is supposed to be whinny and arrogant but that begs the question why was he so wooden in the scenes where he wasn't being whinny. He was a poor show like it or not, although I love the character. On revenge of the sith he was a bit better
@@isaacthompson3600, because most of the Jedi were, since they were Jedi. Expressing emotion is something they discourage because they see emotion as a gateway to the dark side. Look at Mace Windu as a good example of this. Samuel L. Jackson is known for showing a lot of emotion in the films he stars in… except for the Prequels. Samuel L Jackson acts “wooden” because the Jedi are _meant_ to be emotionally stale. The only exception to this is Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon; both of whom have strayed away from the Jedi Council’s strict code to some extent. Even when Obi-Wan wanted to be a strict adherent to the code, he still adopted some of Qui-Gon’s personality. It’s less an issue with the actor and more of a specific choice made by Lucas to convey a specific message within the film: for all of their claims of compassion, the Jedi are cold, callous, and emotionally insensitive. This contrasts them from Luke Skywalker and the new Jedi Order.
@@MatthewChenault yeah that's a point, but I've never considered Samuel Jacksons performance to be a great one anyway. Even if it was lucas' fault it's still very poor
I really didn't like Anakin in AOTC. I would have liked it better, if the turn in RotS would have been more of a surprise. You can see and follow character development. But as far as I go, it has been handed to me with a sledge hammer, instead of a scalpel. I would have preferred more subtle hints. Of course he would have lashed out at the death of his mother. Yet he wouldn't have necesseraly needed to have been a whinny bitch all the time, not after the happy go lucky guy in the Phantom Menace. As i said: sledge hammer over the head, instead of a subtle scalpel hints here and there.
10:20 I really think, that Jango should lead the Jedi to the army. And he also doesn't seem surprised in a way, wait "You found me?", more like "Wait, you found me already?" because Jango didn't expect that he would be found so sone, since the dart was so specific, remember the analysis from the Temple, couldn't tell where the dart is from, he expected him to take longer. And after the Jedi, have found the army, there is no need for him to stay there, so he leaves. And I also don't think that Jango should lead the Jedi to geonosis. Because why should he?
Exactly. It's even implied that Jango was already planning to leave for Geonosis. But he had no way of knowing Obi-Wan had a friend who could identify the dart, which was the only reason why he discovered Kamino so quickly. Jango most likely assumed he would have to do a much more detailed analysis of the dart and ask around the Bounty Hunter Guild.
Maybe Jango is one of those Jedi hating Mandalorians. That's reason enough for him to lead the Jedi to Geonosis. Look how many Jedi fall in that battle. This is pre Clone Wars cartoon, pre Rebels, and pre Mando. We don't know as much about the Mandalorians, but I think the animosity they hold towards the Jedi is a Lucas thing. That idea alone justifies Jango's involvement in the conspiracy. And if that's not the case, he's still a bounty hunter. What does he stand to make from being a pivotal figure in the formation of the Empire and working directly under Dooku and Sidious?
I’ve been back and forth on this for years about how I feel on Anakin and padmes dialogue/relationship. You did bring up a good point about his age. I guess a 19 year old with no experience in that area, being raised/trained to not have those feelings, would probably be socially awkward in that situation. So maybe it’s not bad acting/dialogue…maybe it’s spot on with reality??
I do think it's interesting how Dooku tried to reveal who Palpatine was to Obi Wan during the interrogation scene. It made me wonder if Count Dooku was secretly opposed to Palpatine or wanted to overthrow him. Bad blood between Sith is not uncommon, and Palpatine clearly was perfectly fine with betraying his apprentice as seen in RotS.
Although I agree on what you said about Padme (it would be better written and more logical), I think people consider Palpatine's plan as too convoluted while it is actually very simple. You must always remember Palpatine is an educated leader, and must know his Von Clausewitz (or the Star Wars equivalent) stating that "no plan survives contact with the ennemy". Instead I would suggest consider Palpi just gave himself the best possible cards : - As chanceller he secretly assured to build up of a clone army - Using Dooku and the structural separatist tendencies within the Republic (remember the inequal partition of the Republic already was a problem in Phatom Menace) to create an antagonist desire and army. Thus he was sure, controlling both sides and both armies, that a war would start. For the rest he would just adapt to the events steering it as a floating ship rather than a well oiled machinery. Same goes with Anakin : he knows his feelings, knows how conflicted the kid is, and just pushed him to Padme, who he probably felt the feelings for Anakin through the Force as well. Then he knew wars brings pain, passion, and loss, even without knowing for Ani's mom, such opportunities were bound to happen.
It was part of Palpatine’s plans to further continue the 1000 year old Sith plan of dominating the galaxy and he happens to be the one who would take over under his guise. Under him being a ruthless yet populous politician who has control of the largest republic in the whole galaxy.
An AotC “correction” video would be awesome! The Prequels are my favorite, and I always thought with just a little tweaking they would be truly stunning
at this point im pretty much 100% convinced the awkward/creepy vibes between padme and anakin are completely intentional. not saying that that entirely redeems ALL of the dialogue in those scenes, some of it is still pretty awful, but i think the most overtly creepy parts are actually examples of pretty decent character writing when you consider how it factors into his trust issues/dependency. his manipulative language ("the kiss that YOU shouldn't have given me." when he clearly initiated it as the most obvious example.) like even his little prank when he pretends to be crushed by the testicle-buffalo-thing, its pretty sus when you think about it. imagine someone pretends to be crushed by an animal and seriously wounded, just so that you'd run up to them worried. whether even he realizes it or not, he's playing with her emotionally in a pretty fucked way. let's just say i wouldnt imagine obi-wan faking a mortal injury for a laugh, alls im sayin. "YOUR love is intoxicating" again he's using accusatory language where it isnt appropriate. all of this ties in quite nicely with his ultimate failure to save his mother too. i think the writing falls flat due to their scenes being kinda rushed to the point that it really doesnt feel like padme should be falling for him. like its going way too fast for him to obviously play with her emotions, avow fascism, and kill children and for her to still support him. that is where i feel the real problem with their arc lies, theres no believable honeymoon phase to their obviously dysfunctional relationship, perhaps that can be chocked up to human relationships just not being george's strong suit as a writer. that being said, i think those scenes deserve more credit then they are given. it is obvious that the weirdness is not just some by-product of george lucas being a robot like people often seem to suggest. ok, thats my TED talk.
I think it was different from what he planned, but it still ended up working out. Palpatine constantly adapts to changing plans, he does it in episode 1 too. But it is admittedly really messy. To me this craziness is all part of Star Wars, which is why sometimes I get annoyed when people get too wound up in the specifics of things. I totally understand it, but that's not why I'm a star wars fan if that makes sense.
I think the thing about Palpatine is that he always has multiple plans going at a time, and he is also very good at adapting these plans based on what happens.
Personally I think all Palpatines plan was "start the war" he had the clones ordered, and now is the time they were finished. He was going to start it with the separatists anyways, our heroes just happened to get tangled into it and this happened to be a good excuse to start out. This video was very fun to watch though and it's really cool hearing discussion on a movie I like and debate the logic of it. I would love to watch more of these.
I remember right before TFA came out, there was a video/essay going around the Internet about how the prequels we're secretly brilliant. The guy who wrote it said he did it because he was tired of hating on the prequels, but he didn't exactly change the mainstream public's opinions on the prequels. At least, not right away...
If you look at the alternatives of the choices heroes and villains make in the Attack of the Clones, most of them is still a win for the Palpatine (just like you said for Anakin and Padme staying on Tatooine). The way it felt into place was flawed, but Palpatine was not only a good planner but a sharp guy with a knack for improvisation (first two acts of Phantom Menace go most certainly not according to his plan, as the Trade Federation fails spectacularly and lies to him constantly - and he is still a Supreme Chancellor in the end). He prepeared the scene and them made it work despite our heroes' efforts. He played with marked cards, yes - but he did most with the hand he was given as well.
I always got the impression that she thought Dooku was trying to kill her because of Nute Gunray. But it was really Palpatine who really wanted her dead more because he thought she was a threat and it would be another person from Anakins past killed that he couldn't protect alongside his mother.
I have a weird relationship with Ep 2... I actually saw this film a LOT... especially in theatres, I think it is my most watched movie in theatres... and while the criticism levelled against it are absolutely valid... I was going through a very weird time in my life where I was reconciling feelings on an old crush and all the awkward romantic bullshit in the movie resonated with me because I was awkward as fuck too... probably still am. The turn from love to anger and hate, I could relate. The acting was absolutely bad but there is something underneath that spoke to me
@@MatthewChenault The acting was bad, there’s really no way around that. But it probably wasn’t the actors’ fault. Lucas wrote and directed the dialogue very strangely.
@@Gouka07, maybe it wasn’t that the acting was bad, but that it wasn’t what you expected nor wanted. The intention was for the Jedi to feel emotionally dead because they were emotionally detached. The reason why Anakin’s deliveries seem awkward is because Anakin is meant to be portrayed as awkward and not socially acclimated to romance. If anything, it isn’t bad acting. It’s spot-on acting that people interpret as “bad” because they ignore the context of the situation. Anakin is meant to be awkward and not proficient in romance because he was raised by the Jedi; an organization that explicitly bans those things. As a result, he’s going to seem corny and cheesy.
I an disappointed that bendu is being done for battle of heroes and villains. Both because this is a tricky "character" to grade and also because this really shows the problem with people being able to choose what criteria they use to judge characters. To me grading bendu is similar to trying to grade the father, son, or daughter from the Morris arc. While these are important characters for star wars we don't know much about them, and they aren't developed meaning there isn't much there to grade. Same with bendu in fact I wouldn't even call the bendu a character more accurately a intriguing idea because there is not much there right now due to how little screentime bendu has had.
I love this movie. I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it's one of the most significant episodes in the entire movie saga. To me, the confusion is part of the appeal, it's fun to work it all out in my head because you can come to wrong conclusions based on how much information you have, which is more brilliant writing on George's part. My issues with it are all in the editing, which somewhat makes for a lot of awkward moments and silences, making dialogue and certain ideas feel piecey and disconnected. I wouldn't add anything, but I think if certain moments were removed for the sake of pacing it would be a tighter and more focused film and make it's point a lot clearer. I think the romance is supposed to be shallow and throw up red flags for experienced romantics. It's a commentary on disingenuous nature of institutionalized pedestal romance. Anakin makes himself out to be Padme's ideal trophy husband, and she is his ideal trophy wife. They only care about each other so far as they fit one another's ideal image for a partner. Padme is revealed to actually care when she still asks for him when she's being rescued from him, but throughout this movie and most of the next it's presented as cold and ambiguous objectification. Considering how meticulous the plot is surrounding Padme and Anakin as key players, it stands to reason Dooku said something sideways to her, knowing she wouldn't be taken seriously if she confided in the proud and arrogant Jedi council. That's the hint when he attempts to do the same to Obi-Wan later on, admitting the truth knowing it would have no affect on the narrow mind of a prideful and arrogant Jedi mind. I especially love that this movie paints the Jedi, who are supposed to be protectors of peace, as the gatekeepers to war who happily opened the gates to welcome war into the Republic thinking they could oversee it and gain greater power... Even if they had to whisper "oh no" to one another to accept that's what they truly wanted and would never truly admit. Anakin was wrong to destroy the Jedi, but he was also right that they were evil, and Palpatine used that to coerce him into fascist rule as the extreme opposite to the corruptible Republic system that failed him personally. The point of this movie is a universal hunger for power on all sides.The separatists were good guys who felt betrayed by the Republic's preference for power over justice, being lured in by the same promise of power. It's a cascade of good guy factions being tempted to become bad guy factions for more power and control to ease their fears. It's not the best Star Wars movie, but it is the deepest.
Let’s see that follow-video; After all these years I still love analysis and speculation pertaining to prequels - if only the newer films were worthy of such continued interest.
Can you please do this for the Jabba’s palace plan I remember you promised this years ago but I have never been able to find the video. If you made it can I have the link.
One thing about Sidious is that his power of foresight is that strong he can forsee the likelihood of it going exactly how it panned out in the story. It is also a convenient form of plot armour to use and I can see why it frustrates a lot of people when that is the reason given, but it is what it is.
there's a lot of "all according to plan". it always seemed to me like palatine was expecting Padme to be killed by the trade federation (or maul then pinned on the federation) as a way to get himself into power and galactic trade under his control. after that he's modifying his plans as things develop.
Regarding Palp's plan... Yes, it was intricate, but as anyone with military experience knows, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. You adjust as you need to.
I could see Jango being in on it from a more EU standpoint. There has always been a rivalry between some Mandalorians and Jedi and if that was used, Jango could have easily agreed to any plan that saw damage done to the Jedi. It would also explain why he wanted to kill Obi-Wan on Kamino. It's an easy tie in to make that is completely plausible.
What’s wrong with that? Sify Dias had foreseen a war and needed a army to defend the republic. The chancellor needed an army to protect the republic... but because the man who ordered the army is dead, he should just ignore the army and let the republic be destroyed? Dooku: We have a droid army. The Senate: We (can) have a Clone army. Do you have a better idea about what they should do?
Hey, I just wanted to address some points to the best of my understanding: 1. Padmé is something of a political idealist herself, and believes in diplomacy above warfare. Dooku is the leader of the Council of Independent Systems, and their desire to secede from the Republic is the result of a failure in diplomacy. In a way, they are an ideological foil to each other, so I believe her suspicions in him are justifiable. 2. Jango is supposed to lead Obi-Wan to Kamino so the Jedi can learn of the clone army at their disposal for the Clone Wars. Obi-Wan rightfully investigates the saberdart; since the distributors are a remote people, they may know something about their few customers, and Jango may return for a saberdart restock. I don't believe Obi-Wan was supposed to meet Jango, or follow him to Geonosis, as this bounty hunter is the suspicious link between the clone army and Darth Tyranus. Jango was likely unaware of the larger plan, as he drops the name Tyranus, and would likely be a security threat. Dooku subtly interrogates the captured Obi-Wan to confirm that the Jedi isn't on to him in the way that matters. If this all had been planned, then there would have been no need for Dooku to interrogate Obi-Wan, and he could have gotten out of there long before the Jedi and clones show up. And I don't think the separatists would have been too thrilled about having their droid factory exposed. 3. I agree the death of Anakin's mother was part of the plan and protecting Padmé was supposed to remove him from the action. I believe Palpatine underestimates Padmé as it was her idea to go help Obi-Wan. This isn't the first time Palpatine underestimates her: he was against her returning to Naboo in TPM.
@@fictiontheorizer4253 The more likely one is that since we know Jango was using those darts before the cloning contract, he didn't think it would lead back to him as despite being manufactured on Kamino, he probably purchased them on the black market and if Obi-Wan wasn't seen a premium visitor due to the Jedi involvement in the cloning project, he wouldn't have even been within a million miles of Jango as his apartment was in the Captial of Kamino.
@@emberfist8347 The specifics on whether the assassins' were supposed to succeed, and how much Jango planned for, are a bit more iffy for me. It makes sense that if Sidious knew about Anakin's infatuation, that he'd use that to undermine him emotionally. Still I'm not sure how much I buy Anakin and Sidious knowing each other, and I'm not sure how much was out of Dooku's hands. But if he did want to get the Jedi involved, getting the Separatists to try to kill one of them, as well as hinting at Sith involvement, would be a way to do it.
The journey to the known ending can be interesting when done right. Subverting expectation can be good when it makes sense (hust hust Game of Thrones) and when you already know how it ends isnt bad but gives the viewer the pleasure of being right
We knew how it ended in the sense that Palp became Emperor, Anakin became Vader, and most of the Jedi were eliminated, but how you get there is a big story that can be told in many ways. We're not always worried about the ending as we are how we got there. We also had some vague hints about the Clone Wars and bits about the Republic, but we knew almost nothing about the Jedi Order or their involvement. There are plenty of quality moves that show a point near then end, then go back in time and tell how the story got there. It works.
See KOTOR for an example of this. There are some restrictions based on it being set 4000 years in the future. We know the Republic isn't going to fall, which means the Sith aren't that big of a threat. We know there's certain lore limitations on Jedi and Sith. We know they can't radically change the timeline. But they still made a story that works while avoiding all these things. In fact, they used expectations to their advantage to pull the ol' switcheroo on what the real threat was. As well as building up a lot of the lore that the movies never went into. The prequels are in a similar situation. All that was really set in stone is two lines Obi Wan says in the fourth movie. Anakin was seduced by the dark side and became Darth Vader. But we didn't know the that happened (outside of a few hints by Lucas in interviews). There is literally infinite ways you could get to the end result. Yet the path Lucas went was not really what anyone envisioned. For good or bad. Along the way, there was a ton of chances to expand on unanswered questions from the first three films. But they either didn't address it or, in a lot of ways, the prequels contradicted the first three films.
Palpatine foresaw his own death at the Second Death Star, over the Forest Moon of Endor, and yet he went there anyway. This tells us, dating all the way back to "Return of the Jedi," that Palpatine is VERY capable of seeing glimpses of the future, but... knowing that the future is not set, and that it is simply one of many possible futures, he goes to Endor anyway, knowing that Luke Skywalker will show up there. And he has Vader capture Luke Skywalker, and incites the saber fight between the two of them, with the hopes that Luke will give in to the Dark Side, and slay Vader, thus taking Vader's place as Palpatine's new Sith Apprentice, instead of killing Palpatine. This, of course, does not happen. In fact, it happens very much in a way that Palpatine clearly did NOT foresee, because his death involved Darth Vader betraying him... something that Palpatine had no notion was possible in the first place, otherwise he wouldn't have been so easily thrown down that reactor shaft by Vader. Palpatine, I reckon, saw the Clone Wars breaking out very quickly, and him simply fixing things so that war did break out, while casting himself as the Chancellor who wanted to save the Republic. I don't think "Attack of the Clones" worked out entirely as Palpatine foresaw, but Palpatine, as he had already demonstrated in previous films, was very good at "thinking on the fly," and manipulating events so that they worked out in his favor after all. He does the same thing in "Episode III," when he nearly gets killed by Mace Windu, but then Anakin shows up, and Palpatine paints himself as the victim, while also convincing Anakin that Palpatine's death would only doom Padme' to the same fate. So Anakin panics, and chops Mace Windu's arms off, allowing Palpatine to force-throw him out of the window.
Regarding the assassination attempt on padme: the 2nd line of dialogue in the film is Padme's head of security remarking " I guess i was wrong, there was no danger after all" which of course means that he was made aware of some threat to padme's life and that it is probably the source of Padme's conclusion that it was Dooku behind the attempt (perhaps a rumour of the Trade federation siding with the separatists, Obi-wan is not surprised to see the leadership of the trade federation with Dooku). As you suggested, the information was likely sourced from Palpatine in order to either remove the anti-army vote leader or to force her and anikin together. Palpatine shows throughout that he has failsaves built throughout his plans, and even when things look like they are going badly he manages to turn them to his advantage.
I loved Palpatine's plan in this movie because he was absolutely successful. He won. Yoda even acknowledged it at the end. Yoda was the only one that knew they lost when he scoffed at Obi Wan when Obi claimed victory. Palpanine didn't need to authorize the building of an army, he already had it. Killing Padme wasn't to prevent her from voting, she was Duke Ferdinand or Hellen of Troy. She was the reason to start the war. When the Jedi recieved the army from the Caminoans and invaded Geonosha to save Padme, Palpatine won. As for the conflict, this is reflected by most civil wars. As an example, the confederacy separating from the nation or the Lutherans seperating from the Vatican or eastern Europe pulling itself away from the USSR. 1. The larger organization will try to use force for the organization to be forced to remain within the organization. 2 Areas along the border of the conflict receive the most upheaval. Naboo was a nutrient rich planet on the edge of space. The Trade federation controlled the thorough lanes taxing trade.
Dooku was only trying to kill her because the Trade Federation wanted her dead. I always thought her assassination was part of the deal that the Trade Federation with Dooku as a condition of them joining The Confederacy of Independent Systems.
A big problem with Padmë’s characterization simply comes down to George Lucas’ political views. He was anti-war. The Empire was allegorical for the USA with rebels being any of the small Communist powers we were trying to topple. Push openly criticized George Bush in the making of Episodes’s II and III. Because of this, Padmë had to be portrayed as his idea of ‘the good guys’: anti-war, anti-military. That is why she was against a Military despite her personal experience being an obvious argument and character arc for supporting that Military and thereby making her relationship with Anakin make more sense.
Attack of the Clones is my favorite Star Wars Movie (and I saw the original in the theater lol). All the awesome content that’s come after ATOC shows how much story and potential it had/has. And I don’t think it’s that far fetched for Padme to suspect Dooku because it’s easy to assume he’s been seen and known to be associated with theTrade Federation.
Some of these things makes a bit of sense. I can see a possible plan where using Jango for any mission kinda statistically leads to the discovery of the growing clone army, because he’s up against space wizards. Palpatine is using the Gandalf method of matching tasks to personnel, going against apparent logic because he has ”good feelings” about the outcome if he leaves the task of breaking into Mordor to the level 8 hobbits. I also see a possible path to his desired outcomes if Kenobi dies on Geonosis while Skywalker is developing his creepy incest-adjacent romance with Amidala. The jedi leadership could have been sent there to die too, and the clones could have been in time for a big battle, but too late to save anybody. The incredibly contrived circumstances that takes Anakin and Amidala there is just so the set piece battle and monster fight can happen. Gotta sell those toys… But all of this is motivated reasoninging, attempting to create some logical story out of a movie that makes no damn sense on it’s own. As for Dooku I remain convinced that not only do we not know what he’s trying to achieve, neither does he, nor the script writers. The question ”why would Amidala think that Dooku wants her dead?” is as baffling as you say. But personally I’m even more bothered by ”what does Dooku think he’s trying to do?”. The charisma and skills of Christopher Lee makes Dooku fascinating to look at on the screen, but that makes the wasted potential even sadder. I suspect last minute revisions. Generally, I think the problem with the entire sequel is that Lucas was trying to do it all himself. He didn’t trouble-shoot the script with other writers. He didn’t get somebody else to do the dialogue. The over-arching vision is fine, but the execution lurches between merely competent and painfully ham fisted.
In defense of the Jango Saberdart angle-- Dexter seems to clue in on the manufacturing PROCESS rather than a specific logo. And the fact that he seems to say that the 'funny cuts on the side GIVE IT AWAY' implies there are other saberdarts in use and it's the specific esoterics of the Kaminoan saberdart that is important. Kind of like how-- if you know what you're looking for-- you can identify which factory & year a T-34 tank came out of based on the type of welding used to attach railings etc. I think Jango didn't have any reason to think that he would be tracked back to Kamino & Palpatine's master plan prolly would have originally been for Dooku to simply exist as a big enough threat to bait the Jedi into a war regardless of whether it was kickstarted by Geonosis or not. After all- Dooku could build up his droid forces and attack any number of worlds in a manufactured political crisis like Naboo. there were any number of geopolitical powderkegs to exploit during this period so i think Geonosis just kinda fell into his lap.
all questions are clarified in the book for episode 2. I know that you shouldn't have to read a book to understand a movie. but it's very interesting how the issue that Padme is actually an unwilling ally of the Separatists is actually brought up in depth. It would unfortunately be too complex to go into the questions individually, but the audio book is available in its entirety on RUclips, at least in German.
AOTC was the first SW film that I watched in theaters and I was uber-excited after I left the theater. A few thoughts on what’s been said. - I think Padme is showing her ego a bit when she blames Count Dooku for the attempts on her life without stating any evidence. To her, there’s no reason why she shouldn’t be targeted because she’s been the center of attention her entire life. - I think Jango believed that no one could track his Kaminoan dart. Dooku deleted all the records about Kaminoan from the Jedi Archives so probably told Jango the darts couldn’t be tracked back to him. It was really a coincidence (or Palpatine’s manipulations) that he ran into perhaps the only Jedi who had a friend that could tell him exactly what the markings were and where it was located.
Hey thor. I was thinking bout this today, especially the dialog. But George said it was supposed to be a dramatic classic. But yeah I totally agree. I'm sick today so this is the perfect cure ♥️
Any good plan includes a *contingency* or even better, multiple contingency plans. If plan A fails, move on to plan A.1, if something deviates from that scheme, plan A.2 is on standby. This is how a Machiavellian genius operates. Leave nothing to chance, plan carefully, but never hesitate to throw out a plan or part of the plan when it becomes obsolete.
I haven’t read the novelization of Revenge of the Sith since 2005, if I remember correctly, Palpatine wanted Obi Wan to go after Grievous because he knew Anakin wouldn’t turn to the dark side with Obi Wan around. Palpatine need Obi Wan out of the way to finish his plan. So, I think this all makes sense in the context of this video. I like 👍 it.
I always thought that palpatine had a general overarching strategy that involved creating chaos to eventually force the war and sew distrust in the Jedi. Even Anakin was just an afterthought and not the crux of his plan. Attributing all of the things that happened to his brilliance is a mistake because it makes the plot laughable. It's no different than the idiocy of claimbing he was in control against Mace Windu. Mace was widely considered the best dualist among the Jedi and Yoda fought Palpatine to a draw, So claiming that his plan all along was to get himself into a one-on-one with windu, allow himself to be disarmed, get lightning shot back into his face just figuring him for life, and then count on Anakin to save him is ludicrous. Some of these things he might have seen in force visions and some he might have been planning on two or three different outcomes with ideas for how to handle each situation but he always was capable of being defeated right up to the point where he gained complete power with a loyal clone army.
I always thought the reason duku was trying to kill padme was because the viceroy gunray wanted revenge for the events of the phantom menace and that was his condition for supporting the separatist movement
Swap Anakin and Obi-Wan's roles. Have Anakin chace down Fett, his first assignment as a Jedi Knight, so Anakin feels extra confident about the mission, and maybe a little overly zealous too. Anakin can follow Jango to geonosis after a rather gruesome skirmish on Kamino, leaving maybe one or two younger Kaminoians to question whether building this clone army is really a good idea. Anakin can get captured on Geonosis, and because the name Anakin Skywalker in the OT is only barely mentioned, we can imagine that the Seps may really want to kill Anakin, but Anakin's strength in the Force proves just enough to leave him horribly scarred. Him being away from Padme, especially after arriving on Coruscant and being briefed that he'll be in charge of Padme's security since assassinations are becoming a little too common place for the, now Senator's safety. Obi-Wan on the other hand, remains as Padme's Security on Naboo, we don't get the horrible sexual tension between Anakin and Padme, but a more brother-sister type of love. Padme can remark that, maybe creating an army to protect worlds firmly within the Republic is a good idea, while Obi-Wan, the more level-headed and wise, counsels her on higher morals and better methods. That, war is what the Sith and ultimately the Dark Side want. Padme can counter with, "The Sith haven't been seen in a millennium, and the Seps want Peace". She might even ask if Dooku is capable of becoming Sith, maybe in this alternate timeline, Dooku is staunchly for the Republic, being sent to the Seps Home Capital to negotiate a compromise. Sidious can capture, corrupt and reveal his grand plan to Dooku and Dooku unknowingly begins to fall, which we see in real time during the movie, not told that Dooku fell by Jocasta Nu, almost 10 years ago. Obi-Wan and Padme can grow close, leaving Anakin jealous, though, both Padme and Obi-Wan know that they're just friends.
When I was a little kid my uncle left his CD binder full of pirated movies at our house. One of them was AOTC and I use to watch it endlessly. Sorta like you as a kid and Return of the Jedi. This movie will always have a sentimental place in my heart. The battle of Geonosis blew my mind as a little 5 year old. While now grown up I can say it’s definitely not the best overall but damn I the clone wars is easily my favorite time frame in all of Star Wars
Padme is the protagonist of the last movie, she is the main character of that story after Qui-gon is killed by maul, the opening crawl of episode 2 states, there is unrest in the galaxy, 1000s of star systems have declared they want to break away, and it is headed by the mysterious count dooku. Having Padme accuse Dooku this early is there to set up distrust for him for the audience, for when we finally meet him on Genosis, this makes sense with what was going on in the scene, with them discussing an outcome that could come to war, because the ending of the crawl says the jedi are spread thin and overwhelmed but clearly state we are keepers of the peace not soliders, so they can't fight a war if the separatists do attack, which seems inevitable with all the systems breaking away, Padme has always been the one who wants to find a diplomatic solution, her arc from episode 1 wasnt learning to defend yourself, but by reaching out for help in your darkest hour, it's only later in the movie does she realize her idealistic view isn't always the case, and this is showed through her connection to anakin, with there playful banter of aggressive negotiations, so no she would never be for the creation of an army for the republic, so when we finally meet dooku, having Obi-Wan overhear him as the tactician and putting all these events in motion is a reason to have Obi-Wan distrust him in story even though we as the audience know everything he tells Obi-Wan is in fact true. Zam was always the assassin sent to kill Padme, she just worked under Jango. When we are introduced to them she says I hit the ship but they used a decoy, to which he says there can be no mistakes this time, the dart is explained by the diner scene, Obi-Wan was unable to find anything on the dart it was untraceable, Dax even says it's these funny little marking on the side, those analysis droids only focus on symbols, meaning Obi-Wan had to find someone who may have been able to even know anything about the dart, so knowing Dax was lucky, this scene is the same scene as in episode 1 where they decided on the plan eating dinner at anakins house, it's a way to give exposition to the audience so we can understand where the story is heading, we see him looking for the planet and start to unravel the mystery of the creation of the clone army, when we make it to kamino it was unclear to the kaminons who they were waiting on, just the arrival of a jedi master, they never specifically say Obi-Wan, when he meets with Jango there interaction is telling, Jango knew he would need to discuss why he volunteered which is why he says, I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe, which is where Obi-Wans line of questions change to the assassination attempt, which is why he asks Boba to close the door, his stern look at the end tells us, he knows he wasn't able to fool the jedi, and there is more to the story, he tried to get away before he was questioned further, this is in my opinion some of the best showcase of how manipulative Palpatine can be, he was able to change his plans at the last moment due to where all the pieces had fallen on the board, by playing off everyone's fears including and most importantly the jedi, that despite their desperate attempts war was inevitable I have more to say but this comment is long enough, attack of the clones is an outstanding movie and so under appreciated, people say the romance isn't good, please 🙄, it's based off how plays were done in the 1930s when reintroducing characters after a long period of time I usually find us on the same page thor, and I understand some of the criticism against the prequels, but that trilogy is amazing, there is no need to "rewrite" or change the story...
Clone Wars established Palps didn’t plan *everything* but he had the general grand scheme down and was good at improvising when unknowns unexpectedly show up like Maul.
Palpatine is definitely the "grand architect" and a brilliant strategist, but I think some people give him a bit too much credit. He definitely orchestrated and played out the galactic conflict, but some of these smaller events, Padme and Anakin falling in love, Shmi's death, etc. I do not believe were part of his plan. He was just able to use these events to his advantage.
It makes sense because of the following reasons: 1. Padmé wasn’t being assassinated due to Palpatine’s influence, but rather due to Nute Gunray wanting her dead. 2. Palpatine was manipulating all sides and placed himself into a position of power wherein, no matter what side won, he would be on-top. Most everything in the Prequels is being driven by Palpatine’s influence. Even when events seem to contradict Palpatine’s plans, he is able to utilize them to make them work in his favor.
Yes, and I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Padmé to know that Nute Gunray wants her dead and that Dooku is trying to get the Trade Federation to join the separatists, and draw a conclusion that Gunray could be using Dooku and the separatists to have her killed because given Gunray’s character he’s unlikely to directly get involved in her assassination (given all the legal battles that have happened regarding the invasion of Naboo, too).
I love AOTC. It’s my 2nd favorite Star Wars film. I don’t have the problem with Padmé at the movie’s beginning that you do, but then again I’m a Padmé fan and so maybe a bit biased. That said, I’ll say that you have a very thoughtful analysis here, even if I don’t agree with some of it. It’s nevertheless definitely great to see further detailed discussion about AOTC.
I like the fact that conversations about the prequels are about whether or not moves and plans were smart and not whether this or that is more damaging to the lore as a whole, like in the sequels. I can deal with bad/cheesy dialogue. But I can't deal with severe story inconsistencies and lore breaks.
Sorry UltimateTobi, I'm not looking to burst your bubble. I do like the substance that the Prequels offer. However, in the early 2000s, I remember that the Prequels themselves were certainly not exempt from scrutiny - similarly to that of the recent Sequels. You may already know this, but at the time, the Prequels impacted quite severely on the lore of the Original Trilogy - and for some - not in a good way. I seem to recall quite a wide-spread splintering fan-vs-fan debate after Episode 1, and especially after the conclusion RotS in 2005. •(Original Trilogy Idolizers)• WTF is a Midi-chlorian?! George ruined SW with this stupid mumbo-jumbo that now makes some people more special and more exclusively connected to the Force than others. Also, because of the Prequels, R2D2 then knew all along that Vader was Anakin and said nothing. We completely reject this retcon because it 'damages the lore' of the original films. F*%ck George Lucas. I do feel sorry for those OT fans though, as they never really received a satisfying prequel series that matched their 80s dark grunge aesthetic, primarily because digital CGI accuracy rendered the hand-crafted wizardry of classic film-making obsolete. Technologically the Prequels feel disconnected from the Originals. For example, a pod-racer is cool, but far more advanced than Jabba's luxury sail barge. And don't get me started on Droideka shields. Anyways, these debates are cyclical, and will repeat again in the future. Every new generation will inevitably be critical of the next because some editorial muppet will add/change something that somehow undermines previously established lore. Some very passionate people just naturally wish to protect their deeply personal stories from undesirable revision. *Topical side-note. Kinda sucks to be a Batman fan, right now. How many reboots and revisions is it going to take before Hollywood can let Bob Kane/Bill Finger's 1939 co-creation rest in peace? It'll be almost 90 years of rewriting and recasting the same damn character to undertake the same heroic vigilante job.
@@J-Salamander69 Man, remember when the Clone Wars was fought between two clone militaries and not droids vs clones? Or that C-3PO was more like centuries old and not built by Anakin? Good times, good times. ;)
@@J-Salamander69 Except not really Jabba's Sail Barge was fairly advanced but it was built as a pleasure craft, Podracers were built for speed and look more like the kitbashed craft the Rebel Alliance used in the OT. Also if the Podracer looked more advanced the Sail Barge is both older due to how Hutts are extremely long-lived, and the two vehicles don't fill the same nice. You are comparing a DC-3 to a SR-71.
Actually the brilliance of Palpatine is not that his plan always succeeds, but that he always quickly adapts to his own advantage when it partially fails (with great confidence or overconfidence). So it is hard to figure out what exactly was in his mind. Probably his Dark Side exceptional endowment gave him no perfect forecasts, but something like a general feeling that he was going to succeed at the end, which very in line with some kind of Dark Side arrogance. For example his plan in TPM was to keep the Naboo crisis ongoing to increase his power as chancellor, and he fails. The Clone Wars was the gigantic version of that plan.
I'm certain the discovery of Geonosis wasn't part of the plan since this endangered Anakin. Also it gave Dooku a chance to recruit either Anakin or Obi-wan. With that said I actually believe Dooku when he says he wants to end the Sith and defeat Palpatine and knows he isn't nearly powerful enough and needs the dark side and in this case Obi-wan. He even says that Qui Gon would have joined him. This however leaves a hole when it comes to episode III since Dooku does have Palpatine captured. Perhaps he knew that Sideous had control of the Republic in some way but didn't actually know that he was Palpatine (although the hood as a disguise is weak). Or he gave up at this point and decided to side fully with Sideous.
Without going into more recent political examples, I think the best real-life example for how ingenious Palpatine's plan was is to consider the War on Terror and the Patriot Act. Both of these issues deal with the role and responsibility of a Republic when handling a legitimate threat, and granting those in power with more extreme measures to bring about order. In both Star Wars and real-life, there are legitimate threats out there and some of these measures are necessary--but what are the checks and balances to make sure those in power give up that power when "peace" is brought about? Now, as much as I like Palpatine's plan of accumulating power through subverting a republic, I'm not saying the plan from the movies is foolproof. Having the Kamino army being "discovered" in a roundabout way from a failed assassination and the love-interest subplot being a crucial part of that rise to power are the only parts that I feel is contrived. Everything else about Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme getting captured on Genosis feels more natural and spontaneous, so I don't have any qualms with that part of the film.
Well imo, the Kamino saber dart Jango was hoping for it to be too unique and untraceable but he didn't count on Obi wan's friend. Also I think Kenobi thought to check out the manufacturer since it is his only lead. But yeah Dooku or Sidious probably set the Bounty Hunter up.
It was quite literally the perfect way to create the largest army the galaxy has ever seen, at first in the name of good, then to use it against the people. It took care of 2 factions of enemies at once and paved the way to create another army that was serving now in fear.
I would love to see a series of videos that would basically be your take on how the prequel‘s should have gone, film by film. Kind of like how you used the world between worlds to fix the sequels. That is, use the established characters and events in the broad scheme of it, but change some of the specifics.
Palpatine admits in the Book of Sith he set up the assassination attempts on Padme in order to then suggest she be placed under the protection of Anakin and Obiwan both to rid her vote against the Military Creation Act and to put Temptation in Anakin's path to make it easier to convert him to the Darkside. This part is speculation, but I assume Jango used the Dart on purpose, but he didn't expect Obiwan to have tracked him down on Kamino that quickly. Kamino was deleted from the Jedi Archives in order to buy time for the army to be grown without anyone noticing.
My thoughts could be, is that the clone wars wasn’t supposed to start yet, because if Obi wan didn’t find kamino the first battle of the clone war was geonosis. So after palpatine got the vote he was going to announce the new army of the republic
I mean in TPM it was kind of clear something else was going on in the background, unseen by the Jedi. Would agree the story aint prefect but its not that complex to understand. The only thing is I think "talks" between Palpatine and Anakin werent put on film. As in Anakin seemed to tell Palpatine everything that was going on in his life at that time.
Agreed that not every element of the outcome was executed according to plan. That said, AOTC is a great SW movie. Intrigue, Action, Backstory, and great World building. One of the most heart wrenching moments to me in the saga will always be when Anakin leaves the Homestead to find Shmi. We all knew that it'd end in heartbreak for the apprentice. Personally, the Lost 20 should've been included, developed and shown at least as a flashback. It would've added so much more gravitas to an almost perfect villain, namely Dooku.
Dooku should have been introduced in Episode I, and had at least one conversation with Qui-Gon regarding the Republic's lack of involvment with the Naboo crisis, cuminating with him leaving the Jedi after Qui-Gon's death. That would have made his scene with Obi-wan later much more meaningful. Regarding Palpatine's plan, I always intrepreted it as whoever one the conflict, the Sith would still come out ahead, even if one side had the odds purposefully stacked against it.
I think you misunderstand Palpy's planning. He doesn't schedule out a linear path of events that go from A to B to C and onward. That's weak planning by anyone. He sets actions into motion and schemes out contingencies for every outcome so he can manipulate the results, no matter what they are, to his advantage. I doubt Anakin falling for Padme was some crucial point of his scheme, or even turning Anakin at all, but just a seed planted that could be cultivated in time or ignored if it came to nothing. To quite a forgettable episode of 'Smallville', "You don't go in with a plan, you go in with ten!"
Well said! That's why I took the Sith a millennia to come up with a functioning plan, even though they had started to undermine Republic's influence a long time before
I'd say Anakin had to fall to the dark side, just given that he had more potential than Yoda when it came to the force. I imagine that Palpatine would have found a way to turn him no matter what, simply because having a such powerful apprentice was worth the risk. Of course, he might have considered that if Anakin died fighting Dooku, that that would be perfectly acceptable too (if you can't beat the previous apprentice, you're not really worthwhile training).
Written before the Prequels, Star Wars [Legends] Thrawn books had the Clone Masters as the villians of the Clone Wars. (see all 3 Star Wars [Legends] Thrawn books).
Seems like Palpatiene has trouble foreseeing when the Chosen One will die. Both by Anakin’s almost execution in AotC and by Anakin’s almost death at the hands of Luke in RotJ, except in the ladder movie Palpatiene wanted him to be killed which is the opposite of the former.
Jango was probably told he would be protected but wanted out but was also enticed slash (forced) persuaded to stay in the fold without full info just doing jobs here and there if films were a series he could probably see a moment where he wants out but begrugingly stays for the ensurance of boba and making sure he has enough to support boba until he eventually dies
Palpatine knew Anakin was 'the one' from very early on. What Ob-wan only suspected, Palpatine knew as fact. The most powerful force user the Galaxy had ever seen was a kid with crippling separation anxiety. That much power and all that fear...what could go wrong?
This is gonna be wordy, but stay with me. It makes perfect sense that Padme assumes Dooku is trying to kill her, knowing he's the leader of the Separatists and its a perfect way for him to curry favor with the Trade Federation, who obviously want her dead. Whether or not she was actually supposed to get killed is rather trivial, either way it plays into Palpatine's hands. An assassination attempt, even a failed one, stokes tensions that lead to the war he wants to start. If she dies, especially in the second attempt, Anakin still loses the woman he loves with him being unable to stop it. Palpatine already knows Anakin loves Padme, he doesn't need them to develope that, and he certainly doesn't need them having kids, which would be problematic for him as established in the OT. The dart Fett used on Zam had no logo, no discernable markings on it. The Temple Archive droids couldn't even determine its make or origin. It was found by Dexter Jettster, Obi-Wan's friend. Dooku was very familiar with Jango Fett and the weapons used by him, having fought against him and the Mandalorians before. And Palpatine, following Anakin closely, would've also studied Kenobi, and known of his underground connections that could lead him places that conventional sources wouldn't. It's a calculated risk that pays off, because even though Fett doesn't expect it, Palpatine wants Kenobi to find Kamino at this time. As smart as Palpatine is, he cannot control every single aspect of his plan, some risks have to be taken and some things allowed to play out naturally, and, aided by the Force, he can do this successfully. There are certainly some flaws in the plot of this film, but overall, Palpatines's scheme is pretty brilliant and it does make sense.
I think that the dart Jango was using was planned Maybe Jango didnt try to kill Obi-Wan just had some fun with him He wanted Obi-Wan to follow him. Also somehow Palpatine made sure that Obi-Wan's transmition didn't go through so that he had to try to connect with Anakin. Maybe Palpatine didn't think Obi-Wan was enogh to start the war.
Dooku paying the Tuskins to kill Anakin's mom is an excellent addition. Anakin also being on another planet during the start of the Clone Wars would have added to his feeling of powerlessness.
"Why does Padme think Dooku wants to kill her?" I dunno, her plane blowing up and her decoy dying is a pretty convincing reason. "Why did Jango use a traceable dart" To give the Republic the clone army.
No Jango had the dart because he was using them before he was contracted for the army. If anyone other than Jedi went to Kamino, they wouldn't been in the same city as Jango.
The question is why does she think Dooku is behind it. It makes me think that Padme must know Dooku quite a bit enough that she thinks that he’s trying to kill her because of the military Act vote.
I've still never fully understood the role of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. He just went off on his own and ordered a Clone Army of hundreds of thousands to be created (along with procuring all the ships and weapons) on his own? Who funded it? Why was the Republic totally accepting of this rogue army? Didn't anyone find it suspicious that Jango Fett was working with Dooku and the separatists while being the originator of the clones? Here's a thought: the Jedi council was complicit in the building of the clone army. This is revealed to Anakin in ROTS which further motivates his turn against the order. Also, Padme's motivations don't make sense to me. She went from being the naive girl in TPM to then ruthlessly overthrowing Chancellor Velorum to give more centralized power to the Republic. Then she fought to reclaim her throne and free her planet. But then in AOTC she's back to being a pacifist? I think it would have worked better if she was a little more hawkish, actually pushing for a Republic Army and greater central power, and by ROTS she begins to realize she's been a pawn all along.
1. Master Sifo-Dyas had to go on his own because he was kicked out of the Jedi council for his radical and crazy beliefs in an upcoming war. When he kept insisting, he was then expelled from the order. When palpatine learned about the creation of a clone army, he sent dooku to investigate on the matter and then told dooku to find his old friend sifo dyas and kill him to prove his allegiance to the dark side. It’s also around this time that palpatine started laying out the foundations for the clone wars. Dooku was most likely the one who funded the clone army since he comes from a wealthy family, and he could also have told the kaminoans that he was a friend of sifo dyas and was paying for it on his behalf. The republic was accepting of the clone army because the senate was completely corrupt and full of yes-men who adored palpatine. Many star systems were feeling threatened by separatist presence, and with the discovery of a droid army, it gave the senators more incentive to trust palpatine and defend themselves. The Jedi were in fact suspicious about jango fett working with the separatists. It was revealed by obi wan to the council in season 6 of clone wars during the sifo dyas arc, that the man called “tyrannus” (who we know is actually Darth Tyrannus) is count dooku. The Jedi didn’t want this to cause mass panic or become a scandal so they decided to keep it all a secret from the public and the senate. 2. Padme was 14 years old in TPM and was smart but also naive about galactic politics. This is shown in the lunch scene with shmi skywalker when she tells padme that the republic has no jurisdiction on Tatootine. Palpatine was exposing padme to the corruption that goes on in the senate and how they essentially control the chancellor like a puppet. So of course padme would vote against Velorum. She went to go fight because her people were suffering and she couldn’t abandon them. Padme didn’t become a pacifist after this, she was still willing to fight if there was no other option. However, it’s not the same thing to have a galactic army made for war than a small militia to defend your own planet from an invasion. It was all just a political thing. Padme “realizing she’s becoming a pawn”; if you were engulfed in 3 whole years of nothing but galactic war all while watching your republic slowly crumble and become more militaristic and corrupt, wouldn’t you feel used as well? Btw, padme doesn’t believe in centralized governments or dictators. She directly tells this to Anakin when he said that he would be fine with dictators “if it works”.
Palpatine obviously would have had multiple contingency plans in place incase things didn't go quite according to how he optimally envisioned them. We saw that sort of thing throughout the trilogy
I see it like Joker in Dark Knight. Palpatine's plan was layered and had contingencies for contingencies, it just so happened that this was the version of the plan we saw play out. That's how I justify it in Canon. Outside of universe, George Lucas was great at worldbuilding, not so great at writing, so there's a lot of stuff that goes down that's absolutely absurd. The commonly pointed out one is an assassin fails to kill Padme, so the assassin hired an assassin that hired a Droid that delivered bugs to kill Padme.
Maybe Padme says Dooku is trying to kill her because she knows he’s the leader of the separatist movement and that he is going to ally himself with the trade federation. And she knows that Gunray would only join if he gets something he wants in return, which is her assassination
I’m pretty sure that’s why she thinks that . I’ve always thought that it’s cos the trade federation an Gunray tried to kill her in the last movie why would they stop in the next movie. An dooku is there boss now so it’s him trying to kill her now .
For Jango's part i would expect Dooku had given him the dart (i think that is actually canon in some book) and that any Jedi was supposed to find the clone army but not Jango. Jango maybe had Geonosis as location to go to since Dooku was there and definitely wanted to kill Kenobi. I also believe that the war was supposed to start on another planet entirely because if the Jedi had used the clone army from the start of the arena fight, there is a chance that Dooku, Gunray and Poggle are killed/captured and the death star plans discovered which would be way too much risk.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
I always liked AOTC, it's not perfect by any means, but it's still enjoyable to me. It introduced me to Count Dooku, one of my top favorite characters and easily underrated. To this very day, I still have AOTC on VHS.
I'm not gonna argue if its a good movie or not but I still love the movie
I like it because of Jango fett 💯💯💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽that’s my guy
Me too 😊
I really don’t understand the massive hate, like it isn’t bad at all, but it ain’t god tier either.
@@puggoman902 the dialogue mainly for most.
Honestly i always assumed Padme was supposed to die. Palpatine wanted her out of his way, that's why he tried to have her assassinated, that's why he got Anakin to get her out of the senate. Them falling in love always felt like an accident what Palpatine realized was infinitely better and he could tolerate her constant interference with his plans if it gave a more clear path to make Anakin fall. I view many of the things in Attack of the clones as events what made Palpatine say "Oh, that's way better, we're doing this instead"
I read the last bit in Palpatines upbeat voice and laughed a lot.
@@Rewenat I read it in the LEGO Palpatine voice, and I also laughed a lot
Well, yes and no. I think it’s more Palpatine placing himself into the situation where, no matter what happens to Padmé, he wins.
@@MatthewChenault Agreed
@@MatthewChenault the Xanatos Gambit
I personally think to improve ATOC the deleted scenes shouldn’t have been deleted as some of them go more into Padme’s Life which make the romance more believe and they should have given Dooku more screen time because he’s a great character that is underused
I would say also that spliting Anakin and Obi Wan so long was a bad idea : you have two intricate plans to follow on (the separatist conspiracy and Anakin's love story + search for his mom), if you can somehow keep them at least a bit longer on the same screen it would help a lot in making the romance more natural. Remember Han and Leia had very few "romance dedicated" scenes, most of it came from chemistry in normal scenes
The deleted scene between Obi-wan Kenobi and the Jedi Master Librarian when they are looking at Dooku's statue and speaking of why Dooku left the Jedi Order which should have been kept in the movie. This scene was very strong and important to the plot.
Well to me it would have made the longest Star Wars at the time even longer.
I do regret that Christopher Lee was the main antagonist in Episode II, Lee is a very expensive actor, & if I was in charge & Chris was just too expensive I would have gone with a lesser known, cheaper actor. Or if you wanted Lee in the movies for promotional reasons, have Dooku be in the background while someone like Jango Fett or Grievous actually command the Separatist army.
That and I think they needed someone who could write better dialogue.
Lucas was great at world building and crafting a consistent narrative. It's clear that the actors are way better than the script allowed them to be, even Hayden Christiansen, who's best moments occured when Anakin didn't speak.
I always saw it as an open-ended plan with 2 outcomes and possibilities:
1) the clones don't get discovered, Dooku invades, and Sheev just looks justified for having prepared a clone army in advance
2) the clones do get discovered (likely by a non-Jedi police as Kamino was erased from the Jedi archives and Obi just happened to have an underworld connection) and Sheev starts an "investigation" which reveals that Jedi master Syfo Dias ordered them, allowing Sheev to make a smear campaign on the Jedi to make them look like they were trying to take over the place, while Sheev simply confiscates the clones and uses them to "defend" the republic against the droids
What happened was something in between
Clever!
People always assume a movie villain's plan is exactly what happened, but if Palpatine is doing his job right, all scenarios should lead to his rise to power and the destruction of the Jedi.
@@histguy101As quick as possible too
I think it's an interesting idea that perhaps Jango had no idea of the larger plan and that Dooku set him up. When I look at it this way I feel a lot of sympathy toward Jango rather than just seeing him as one of the villains of The Clone Wars. I see him as a simple man trying to make his way in the universe and protect his son, and when he realises he might be in danger he panics and leaves with his son so that they can continue to live peacefully.
@Greg Elchert Likely only that Dooku and Tryanus were one and the same and that he was a template for a clone army.
There's no reason Jango would have known the larger plan. He was simply a gun for hire, he had no actual risk or support for the civil war aside from it being his job at that moment and one that he got paid extremely well for.
If we take the Legends continuity into account, Jango knew the plan in its entirety and knew about Order 66 and was 100% for it because of his hatred towards the Jedi for wiping out his group, the True Mandalorians, and sending him into slavery.
Taking Legends off the equation, and even canon, it still seems that Fett would’ve been deeper into the plan. Him attacking Kenobi in this case was not really because his peace was being interrupted, but because the jig was nearly up, and he had to act fast. Even in his interaction with Kenobi, you can feel the tension and anger he had building up. Within canon, the idea of him fighting his peoples ancient rivals still holds up.
The reason padme believes dooku is behind the assassination attempt is explained in the novelization (and arguably hinted at in the movie). In the book Padme isn't the first person to be attacked, there are other senators who have been killed by separatists (not necessarily by dooku though) regardless of their stance on the military creation act. But most importantly its explained that padme has just learned that Nute Gunray was acquitted again and that he may be working with Dooku and want revenge. There's still a little bit of this in the movie, as Sio Bibble talks about how gunray is still the viceroy of the trade federation after 4 trials.
Well even without that, I think Padme wouldn't be one to fall for Dooku's silver tongue and we know from a deleted scene that Dooku would like Naboo as a Separatist planet (which makes sense given its location near a pretty significant trade route being one of the only sources of renewable plasma, and the increased prominence of the planet post-invasion)
I always felt like the prequel movies were meant to be an hour longer, each, but everyone is afraid of making long movies, so things got crammed, trimmed and cut to make for shorter movies.
Well keep in mind before TLJ AOTC was the longest Star Wars movie ever made.
Ever since I saw this movie in theaters I thought it strange when nobody questioned a clone army being conveniently delivered to the republic when they needed it. I'd have had questions at least.
They did ask questions. But when you have over trillions of driods coming to end your government, you don't really have time to worry about that. Especially when you don't have an army or navy.
@@CoolMyron Did they do that in the movie? Granted it's been many years since I've seen the movie but I don't remember it happening.
@@Icspiders247 If the movies no. Not until Ep 3. But the fact still stands that they had a huge driod army to deal with. They had to do something
@@CoolMyron If the Gungans can defeat the droids on short notice the Republic as a whole should be able to cobble something together.
@@Icspiders247 The gungans had an army and they lost. The republic didn't have an army or navy. The driods the gungans fought were early models. So they all fail once the driod ship went don't. During the clone war that was no longer the case. The republic would have be fighting better and bigger models and versions of driods that didn't come out until the war.
The gungans didn't even fight many driods. I don't believe that battle was even that big compared to other CW battles.
Of course it makes sense, it just didn't go the way he planned. He wanted to assassinate Padmé, thus eliminating opposition to the Military Creation Act and giving Palpatine the emergency powers, and have Jango intentionally leave clues that would lead the Jedi to Kamino where they'd discover the clone army (though Jango didn't expect to be found so soon. He was already planning to leave for Geonosis). However, the Battle of Geonosis was not a part of the plan. In fact, the war started sooner than Palpatine had planned.
And no. Having Anakin and Padmé falling in love was not a part of the plan. And having Padmé support the Military Creation Act wouldn't make sense because she believes that offering violence will only result in more violence and also believes that the CIS wants to secede because the Republic doesn't care about Outer Rim worlds, something she saw for herself on Tatooine in Episode I.
True. Obi-Wan wasn't supposed to find the CIS base in Geonosis, but only discover the Clone Army
@@emberfist8347 Actually, the saberdarts Jango used in SW Bounty Hunter weren't Kaminoan. But he did want to use the dart as a clue. Otherwise he would've just killed Zam with a blaster.
And the Battle of Geonosis was not in the plan because the plan was to have the CIS launch a full-scale invasion. I seriously doubt Dooku would risk having the entire CIS council on a planet that the Jedi and the Republic are about to attack and possibly arrested, leaving the CIS without its financiers and leaders.
So Palpatine wants to have Padme assassinated... but suggests placing her under the protection of the Jedi? Brilliant idea. It's what caused the second attempt to fail. Jango is knowingly and intentionally leaving clues to be tracked back to Kamino? Really? He wants to be linked to the assassination attempts on a Senator? And, even if he's gone by the time Obi-Wan gets there, the Kaminoians are still going to tell them that it's Jango Fett. Not that they could hide it considering he was the clone template... And how long did Jango think he had to wait around? Just because Kamino is removed from the Jedi Archives doesn't mean Obi-Wan couldn't immediately go to some sort of specialist who could identify the dart... which he did. This all makes Jango look like an absolute idiot.
@@thorskywalker Palpatine had Padmé placed under protection of the Jedi because this time, if the assassination fails, the Jedi might be able to convince her to leave Coruscant since he failed to do so himself. He also wanted to appear genuinely concerned about her life. Getting Padmé away from Coruscant or killing her effectively has the same result, which is to prevent her from convincing the senate to oppose the Military Creation Act.
And yes, Jango didn't mind being tied to the assassination of a senator. He was already a well-known criminal anyway. It's not like it would prevent him from receiving more bounties.
"And, even if he's gone by the time Obi-Wan gets there, the Kaminoians are still going to tell them that it's Jango Fett. Not that they could hide it considering he was the clone template" That's not the point. He never expected to keep his identity a secret, he was just trying to avoid being arrested or killed. And he was going to seek asylum from the CIS, hence he went to Geonosis.
"Just because Kamino is removed from the Jedi Archives doesn't mean Obi-Wan couldn't immediately go to some sort of specialist who could identify the dart... which he did." Yes, but he didn't expect Obi-Wan to find one so soon. How was he supposed to know Obi-Wan wouldn't have to do extensive research on the dart because he just happens to know a guy who just happens to be familiar with Kaminoan culture?
And no, it didn't make Jango look like an idiot at all. You sound just like the people who call Anakin an idiot for falling to the dark side without considering the many factors that contributed to it. Jango simply underestimated Obi-Wan, likely because he's killed Jedi in the past.
@@thorskywalker Palpatine agreed to the Jedi because he wanted them appear to do something. Sooner or later someone would have found Kamino was missing from the archives as it is mentioned despite erasing the system from the memory because they didn’t shift how gravity pulled the stars around the system for the system they erased. It is clear Palpatine had the job be done somewhat sloppy so someone would notice and investigate. Jango himself is also shown using the darts before he accepted the cloning contract and Dexter mentions that it is one of Kamino’s non-clone exports. If it wasn’t a Jedi but say a Sector Ranger who investigated the planet, they wouldn’t have had the same access Obi-Wan did as the Jedi were the ones who had the contract. That person would have likely landed in some city that is far from the capital of Tipoca we see in the movie where Kaminoans typically have visits from non-client off worlders.
There is absolutely no evidence that Palpatine wanted Anakin to fall in love with Padme. With or without her Sidious planned to turn Skywalker to the dark side. There love for each other was just something palpatine discovered and used it againts him later on but he hadn't intentionally pushed it in any way. Dooku totally wanted her dead also. That's why she was sent in the arena instead of being held hostage. As for Jango Fett using saber darts with markings, remember Obiwan told Dex that the analysis droids couldn't identify them, so Fett was probably confident with Kamino erased that he wouldn't be found. However he didn't expect a Jedi to come across a restaurant owner who could identify the saber dart.
Jango wanted Kamino to be found by the Jedi, it just happened sooner than he expected. And Kamino was erased from the archives by Dooku ten years prior so that it wouldn't be found prematurely.
@@emberfist8347 I’m reading comments and see you’ve mentioned Star Wars Bounty Hunter multiple times. The thing is, that game came out after episode 2, and they just made Jango use the same weapons/armor he did in the movies. They weren’t gonna be like, “wait, this takes places before episode 2, does it make sense for Jango to use the kaminoan darts? Hmm.. let’s design an entirely different looking dart that no one will even notice, and if they do, they’ll think it’s a mistake anyway because it doesn’t match the farts Jango uses in the movie.”
No, they just gave Jango the weapons and armor he had in the movie, bc obviously that’s what they’re gonna do. So I don’t think you can really use that to prove that he was using kaminoan darts before he became the clone template
@@johnmomberg5821 Except the movie itself mentioned that Jango wasn’t the only person who uses Saberdarts. Dexter saw them when he a prospector on Subterrel (later revealed to be Polis Massans in the EU) suggesting it is one of Kamino’s non-clone exports. Also his armor is the same because it didn’t come from Kamino. The Mandalorians were an established group in the EU by this point and it was also established that Boba was one of them by this point so it would make sense Jango would have similar armor. Jango’s backstory was even made to tie into Boba’s pre-ATOC backstory of being a Journyman Protector on Concord Dawn who was discharged for attacking a superior officer. Boba was using the alias Jaster Mateel at the time and the comic Jango Fett: Open Seasons established he was mentored by the real Jaster Mateel who was an actual Journeyman Protector.
@@emberfist8347 the thing about video games is you have to give it some leeway. There's stuff in there that normally wouldn't exactly makes sense with movies. Like Jango killing hundreds of people to get to one senator.
@@canadiancollector696 That example you gave made sense Jango was fighting the Republic Police guarding the Senator.
I watched Attack of the Clones a few weeks ago, and I don’t think the plan was for the war to start on Geonosis. Dooku and Palpatine talk about it in the hanger at the end how the incident at Geonosis sparked the galaxy wide conflict, but my takeaway is that it was supposed to happen soon to these events, but just slightly ahead of schedule. The dominos didn’t fall exactly as planned, but because of their strategic placement, however they did fall would lead to the same result.
I recently rewatched AOTC and I loved it, especially Anakin in it. He was whinny, arrogant and hotheaded. He was imperfect. Exactly how a character should start to set the stage for character development for the more mature version of Anakin in RotS.
And the events in it make to 90% sense to me.
For me I think people are blinded by nostalgia. Yes his character is supposed to be whinny and arrogant but that begs the question why was he so wooden in the scenes where he wasn't being whinny. He was a poor show like it or not, although I love the character. On revenge of the sith he was a bit better
@@isaacthompson3600, because most of the Jedi were, since they were Jedi. Expressing emotion is something they discourage because they see emotion as a gateway to the dark side.
Look at Mace Windu as a good example of this. Samuel L. Jackson is known for showing a lot of emotion in the films he stars in… except for the Prequels. Samuel L Jackson acts “wooden” because the Jedi are _meant_ to be emotionally stale.
The only exception to this is Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon; both of whom have strayed away from the Jedi Council’s strict code to some extent. Even when Obi-Wan wanted to be a strict adherent to the code, he still adopted some of Qui-Gon’s personality.
It’s less an issue with the actor and more of a specific choice made by Lucas to convey a specific message within the film: for all of their claims of compassion, the Jedi are cold, callous, and emotionally insensitive. This contrasts them from Luke Skywalker and the new Jedi Order.
@@MatthewChenault yeah that's a point, but I've never considered Samuel Jacksons performance to be a great one anyway. Even if it was lucas' fault it's still very poor
@@isaacthompson3600, but that doesn’t make it a flaw because the act was intentional.
I really didn't like Anakin in AOTC. I would have liked it better, if the turn in RotS would have been more of a surprise.
You can see and follow character development. But as far as I go, it has been handed to me with a sledge hammer, instead of a scalpel. I would have preferred more subtle hints. Of course he would have lashed out at the death of his mother. Yet he wouldn't have necesseraly needed to have been a whinny bitch all the time, not after the happy go lucky guy in the Phantom Menace. As i said: sledge hammer over the head, instead of a subtle scalpel hints here and there.
10:20 I really think, that Jango should lead the Jedi to the army. And he also doesn't seem surprised in a way, wait "You found me?", more like "Wait, you found me already?" because Jango didn't expect that he would be found so sone, since the dart was so specific, remember the analysis from the Temple, couldn't tell where the dart is from, he expected him to take longer. And after the Jedi, have found the army, there is no need for him to stay there, so he leaves.
And I also don't think that Jango should lead the Jedi to geonosis. Because why should he?
Exactly. It's even implied that Jango was already planning to leave for Geonosis. But he had no way of knowing Obi-Wan had a friend who could identify the dart, which was the only reason why he discovered Kamino so quickly. Jango most likely assumed he would have to do a much more detailed analysis of the dart and ask around the Bounty Hunter Guild.
Maybe Jango is one of those Jedi hating Mandalorians. That's reason enough for him to lead the Jedi to Geonosis. Look how many Jedi fall in that battle. This is pre Clone Wars cartoon, pre Rebels, and pre Mando. We don't know as much about the Mandalorians, but I think the animosity they hold towards the Jedi is a Lucas thing. That idea alone justifies Jango's involvement in the conspiracy.
And if that's not the case, he's still a bounty hunter. What does he stand to make from being a pivotal figure in the formation of the Empire and working directly under Dooku and Sidious?
I’ve been back and forth on this for years about how I feel on Anakin and padmes dialogue/relationship. You did bring up a good point about his age. I guess a 19 year old with no experience in that area, being raised/trained to not have those feelings, would probably be socially awkward in that situation. So maybe it’s not bad acting/dialogue…maybe it’s spot on with reality??
Took you a long time to figure out what was right in front of you the whole time.
Yes, it was intentional.
I do think it's interesting how Dooku tried to reveal who Palpatine was to Obi Wan during the interrogation scene. It made me wonder if Count Dooku was secretly opposed to Palpatine or wanted to overthrow him.
Bad blood between Sith is not uncommon, and Palpatine clearly was perfectly fine with betraying his apprentice as seen in RotS.
Although I agree on what you said about Padme (it would be better written and more logical), I think people consider Palpatine's plan as too convoluted while it is actually very simple.
You must always remember Palpatine is an educated leader, and must know his Von Clausewitz (or the Star Wars equivalent) stating that "no plan survives contact with the ennemy". Instead I would suggest consider Palpi just gave himself the best possible cards :
- As chanceller he secretly assured to build up of a clone army
- Using Dooku and the structural separatist tendencies within the Republic (remember the inequal partition of the Republic already was a problem in Phatom Menace) to create an antagonist desire and army.
Thus he was sure, controlling both sides and both armies, that a war would start. For the rest he would just adapt to the events steering it as a floating ship rather than a well oiled machinery.
Same goes with Anakin : he knows his feelings, knows how conflicted the kid is, and just pushed him to Padme, who he probably felt the feelings for Anakin through the Force as well. Then he knew wars brings pain, passion, and loss, even without knowing for Ani's mom, such opportunities were bound to happen.
It was part of Palpatine’s plans to further continue the 1000 year old Sith plan of dominating the galaxy and he happens to be the one who would take over under his guise. Under him being a ruthless yet populous politician who has control of the largest republic in the whole galaxy.
Everything didn’t go to Palpatines plan, he just shifted his plan when anything went against it.
So that’s what makes him a terrifying villain, he’s adaptable
An AotC “correction” video would be awesome! The Prequels are my favorite, and I always thought with just a little tweaking they would be truly stunning
Maybe a lot of tweaking…
They are stunning and need no tweaking
Tweaking won't fix the wooden acting or the terrible script
@@movieswithmatticus5469 The acting wasn't wooden for the type of tonality Lucas was creating, and the script wasn't bad, at least not to me
wow
at this point im pretty much 100% convinced the awkward/creepy vibes between padme and anakin are completely intentional. not saying that that entirely redeems ALL of the dialogue in those scenes, some of it is still pretty awful, but i think the most overtly creepy parts are actually examples of pretty decent character writing when you consider how it factors into his trust issues/dependency. his manipulative language ("the kiss that YOU shouldn't have given me." when he clearly initiated it as the most obvious example.) like even his little prank when he pretends to be crushed by the testicle-buffalo-thing, its pretty sus when you think about it. imagine someone pretends to be crushed by an animal and seriously wounded, just so that you'd run up to them worried. whether even he realizes it or not, he's playing with her emotionally in a pretty fucked way. let's just say i wouldnt imagine obi-wan faking a mortal injury for a laugh, alls im sayin. "YOUR love is intoxicating" again he's using accusatory language where it isnt appropriate. all of this ties in quite nicely with his ultimate failure to save his mother too. i think the writing falls flat due to their scenes being kinda rushed to the point that it really doesnt feel like padme should be falling for him. like its going way too fast for him to obviously play with her emotions, avow fascism, and kill children and for her to still support him. that is where i feel the real problem with their arc lies, theres no believable honeymoon phase to their obviously dysfunctional relationship, perhaps that can be chocked up to human relationships just not being george's strong suit as a writer. that being said, i think those scenes deserve more credit then they are given. it is obvious that the weirdness is not just some by-product of george lucas being a robot like people often seem to suggest. ok, thats my TED talk.
What
I think it was different from what he planned, but it still ended up working out. Palpatine constantly adapts to changing plans, he does it in episode 1 too. But it is admittedly really messy. To me this craziness is all part of Star Wars, which is why sometimes I get annoyed when people get too wound up in the specifics of things. I totally understand it, but that's not why I'm a star wars fan if that makes sense.
I think the thing about Palpatine is that he always has multiple plans going at a time, and he is also very good at adapting these plans based on what happens.
Right
Dooku wants the military act to go thru so the war can start. Padme is opposed to this. Perfectly reasonable to want to remove her.
We know that, but Padme shouldn't know that.
Dooku also arranged for removing Padme because that was a request/condition for the Trade Federation to join.
Personally I think all Palpatines plan was "start the war" he had the clones ordered, and now is the time they were finished. He was going to start it with the separatists anyways, our heroes just happened to get tangled into it and this happened to be a good excuse to start out.
This video was very fun to watch though and it's really cool hearing discussion on a movie I like and debate the logic of it. I would love to watch more of these.
I remember right before TFA came out, there was a video/essay going around the Internet about how the prequels we're secretly brilliant. The guy who wrote it said he did it because he was tired of hating on the prequels, but he didn't exactly change the mainstream public's opinions on the prequels.
At least, not right away...
These movies still aren't good. Though I do admit I enjoy them mostly because I was born on 2000
@@theanimehub2180 wanna give an example, because this story outranks the OT in so many ways
If you look at the alternatives of the choices heroes and villains make in the Attack of the Clones, most of them is still a win for the Palpatine (just like you said for Anakin and Padme staying on Tatooine).
The way it felt into place was flawed, but Palpatine was not only a good planner but a sharp guy with a knack for improvisation (first two acts of Phantom Menace go most certainly not according to his plan, as the Trade Federation fails spectacularly and lies to him constantly - and he is still a Supreme Chancellor in the end). He prepeared the scene and them made it work despite our heroes' efforts. He played with marked cards, yes - but he did most with the hand he was given as well.
I always got the impression that she thought Dooku was trying to kill her because of Nute Gunray. But it was really Palpatine who really wanted her dead more because he thought she was a threat and it would be another person from Anakins past killed that he couldn't protect alongside his mother.
I have a weird relationship with Ep 2... I actually saw this film a LOT... especially in theatres, I think it is my most watched movie in theatres... and while the criticism levelled against it are absolutely valid... I was going through a very weird time in my life where I was reconciling feelings on an old crush and all the awkward romantic bullshit in the movie resonated with me because I was awkward as fuck too... probably still am. The turn from love to anger and hate, I could relate. The acting was absolutely bad but there is something underneath that spoke to me
same here man, i related to it, and i guess i was therefore blinded by all the other incoherencies.
The acting wasn’t really all that bad. The problem is it wasn’t _dramatic_ enough for the audience.
@@MatthewChenault The acting was bad, there’s really no way around that. But it probably wasn’t the actors’ fault. Lucas wrote and directed the dialogue very strangely.
@@Gouka07, maybe it wasn’t that the acting was bad, but that it wasn’t what you expected nor wanted. The intention was for the Jedi to feel emotionally dead because they were emotionally detached. The reason why Anakin’s deliveries seem awkward is because Anakin is meant to be portrayed as awkward and not socially acclimated to romance.
If anything, it isn’t bad acting. It’s spot-on acting that people interpret as “bad” because they ignore the context of the situation.
Anakin is meant to be awkward and not proficient in romance because he was raised by the Jedi; an organization that explicitly bans those things. As a result, he’s going to seem corny and cheesy.
@@MatthewChenault Amen bro
I an disappointed that bendu is being done for battle of heroes and villains. Both because this is a tricky "character" to grade and also because this really shows the problem with people being able to choose what criteria they use to judge characters. To me grading bendu is similar to trying to grade the father, son, or daughter from the Morris arc. While these are important characters for star wars we don't know much about them, and they aren't developed meaning there isn't much there to grade. Same with bendu in fact I wouldn't even call the bendu a character more accurately a intriguing idea because there is not much there right now due to how little screentime bendu has had.
Well said.
I love this movie. I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it's one of the most significant episodes in the entire movie saga. To me, the confusion is part of the appeal, it's fun to work it all out in my head because you can come to wrong conclusions based on how much information you have, which is more brilliant writing on George's part. My issues with it are all in the editing, which somewhat makes for a lot of awkward moments and silences, making dialogue and certain ideas feel piecey and disconnected. I wouldn't add anything, but I think if certain moments were removed for the sake of pacing it would be a tighter and more focused film and make it's point a lot clearer.
I think the romance is supposed to be shallow and throw up red flags for experienced romantics. It's a commentary on disingenuous nature of institutionalized pedestal romance. Anakin makes himself out to be Padme's ideal trophy husband, and she is his ideal trophy wife. They only care about each other so far as they fit one another's ideal image for a partner. Padme is revealed to actually care when she still asks for him when she's being rescued from him, but throughout this movie and most of the next it's presented as cold and ambiguous objectification.
Considering how meticulous the plot is surrounding Padme and Anakin as key players, it stands to reason Dooku said something sideways to her, knowing she wouldn't be taken seriously if she confided in the proud and arrogant Jedi council. That's the hint when he attempts to do the same to Obi-Wan later on, admitting the truth knowing it would have no affect on the narrow mind of a prideful and arrogant Jedi mind.
I especially love that this movie paints the Jedi, who are supposed to be protectors of peace, as the gatekeepers to war who happily opened the gates to welcome war into the Republic thinking they could oversee it and gain greater power... Even if they had to whisper "oh no" to one another to accept that's what they truly wanted and would never truly admit. Anakin was wrong to destroy the Jedi, but he was also right that they were evil, and Palpatine used that to coerce him into fascist rule as the extreme opposite to the corruptible Republic system that failed him personally.
The point of this movie is a universal hunger for power on all sides.The separatists were good guys who felt betrayed by the Republic's preference for power over justice, being lured in by the same promise of power. It's a cascade of good guy factions being tempted to become bad guy factions for more power and control to ease their fears. It's not the best Star Wars movie, but it is the deepest.
Let’s see that follow-video; After all these years I still love analysis and speculation pertaining to prequels - if only the newer films were worthy of such continued interest.
“The new ones do not appear in my archives. If it does not appear in my archives . . . . It does not exist” - Jocasta Nu
Palpatine knew Obi-Wan would find Kamino and follow the bounty hunter to Genosis
I think
Can you please do this for the Jabba’s palace plan I remember you promised this years ago but I have never been able to find the video. If you made it can I have the link.
The most unrealistic part of Anakin’s flirting isn’t his flirting being bad so much as the fact Padme falls for it. Like I just don’t buy it.
I’d love to hear the lines George Lucas used on his wife!
Well if he is the one that wrote Leia and Hans dialogue I have no doubts George had no troubles
Well he didn’t take her to the beach.
@@TerryKashat he must not like sand
Well it might explain why the relationship didn’t last 😬
When I was a kid AOTC was my favorite purely for Jango and the clone troopers.
One thing about Sidious is that his power of foresight is that strong he can forsee the likelihood of it going exactly how it panned out in the story.
It is also a convenient form of plot armour to use and I can see why it frustrates a lot of people when that is the reason given, but it is what it is.
there's a lot of "all according to plan".
it always seemed to me like palatine was expecting Padme to be killed by the trade federation (or maul then pinned on the federation) as a way to get himself into power and galactic trade under his control. after that he's modifying his plans as things develop.
Regarding Palp's plan... Yes, it was intricate, but as anyone with military experience knows, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. You adjust as you need to.
I could see Jango being in on it from a more EU standpoint. There has always been a rivalry between some Mandalorians and Jedi and if that was used, Jango could have easily agreed to any plan that saw damage done to the Jedi. It would also explain why he wanted to kill Obi-Wan on Kamino. It's an easy tie in to make that is completely plausible.
I’ve always questioned why they took an army that was requested by someone who had died before the date it was requested😂🤣
What’s wrong with that? Sify Dias had foreseen a war and needed a army to defend the republic.
The chancellor needed an army to protect the republic... but because the man who ordered the army is dead, he should just ignore the army and let the republic be destroyed?
Dooku: We have a droid army.
The Senate: We (can) have a Clone army.
Do you have a better idea about what they should do?
He didn't he died just after he requested it.
I thought he died afterwards.
Hey, I just wanted to address some points to the best of my understanding:
1. Padmé is something of a political idealist herself, and believes in diplomacy above warfare. Dooku is the leader of the Council of Independent Systems, and their desire to secede from the Republic is the result of a failure in diplomacy. In a way, they are an ideological foil to each other, so I believe her suspicions in him are justifiable.
2. Jango is supposed to lead Obi-Wan to Kamino so the Jedi can learn of the clone army at their disposal for the Clone Wars. Obi-Wan rightfully investigates the saberdart; since the distributors are a remote people, they may know something about their few customers, and Jango may return for a saberdart restock. I don't believe Obi-Wan was supposed to meet Jango, or follow him to Geonosis, as this bounty hunter is the suspicious link between the clone army and Darth Tyranus. Jango was likely unaware of the larger plan, as he drops the name Tyranus, and would likely be a security threat. Dooku subtly interrogates the captured Obi-Wan to confirm that the Jedi isn't on to him in the way that matters. If this all had been planned, then there would have been no need for Dooku to interrogate Obi-Wan, and he could have gotten out of there long before the Jedi and clones show up. And I don't think the separatists would have been too thrilled about having their droid factory exposed.
3. I agree the death of Anakin's mother was part of the plan and protecting Padmé was supposed to remove him from the action. I believe Palpatine underestimates Padmé as it was her idea to go help Obi-Wan. This isn't the first time Palpatine underestimates her: he was against her returning to Naboo in TPM.
I'd buy that explanation.
@@fictiontheorizer4253 The more likely one is that since we know Jango was using those darts before the cloning contract, he didn't think it would lead back to him as despite being manufactured on Kamino, he probably purchased them on the black market and if Obi-Wan wasn't seen a premium visitor due to the Jedi involvement in the cloning project, he wouldn't have even been within a million miles of Jango as his apartment was in the Captial of Kamino.
@@emberfist8347 The specifics on whether the assassins' were supposed to succeed, and how much Jango planned for, are a bit more iffy for me.
It makes sense that if Sidious knew about Anakin's infatuation, that he'd use that to undermine him emotionally.
Still I'm not sure how much I buy Anakin and Sidious knowing each other, and I'm not sure how much was out of Dooku's hands.
But if he did want to get the Jedi involved, getting the Separatists to try to kill one of them, as well as hinting at Sith involvement, would be a way to do it.
Never thought of it this deeply. Palpatine's plan makes more sense in a broad view, the specifics really get muddy for me
My biggest thought concerning the 'success' of the prequels is simple: "How do you make something interesting when the outcome is already known?"
You tell a human story within that context.
What kind of question even is that?
The journey to the known ending can be interesting when done right. Subverting expectation can be good when it makes sense (hust hust Game of Thrones) and when you already know how it ends isnt bad but gives the viewer the pleasure of being right
We knew how it ended in the sense that Palp became Emperor, Anakin became Vader, and most of the Jedi were eliminated, but how you get there is a big story that can be told in many ways. We're not always worried about the ending as we are how we got there. We also had some vague hints about the Clone Wars and bits about the Republic, but we knew almost nothing about the Jedi Order or their involvement.
There are plenty of quality moves that show a point near then end, then go back in time and tell how the story got there. It works.
you know the destination, but do you know the journey behind it?
See KOTOR for an example of this. There are some restrictions based on it being set 4000 years in the future. We know the Republic isn't going to fall, which means the Sith aren't that big of a threat. We know there's certain lore limitations on Jedi and Sith. We know they can't radically change the timeline. But they still made a story that works while avoiding all these things. In fact, they used expectations to their advantage to pull the ol' switcheroo on what the real threat was. As well as building up a lot of the lore that the movies never went into.
The prequels are in a similar situation. All that was really set in stone is two lines Obi Wan says in the fourth movie. Anakin was seduced by the dark side and became Darth Vader. But we didn't know the that happened (outside of a few hints by Lucas in interviews). There is literally infinite ways you could get to the end result. Yet the path Lucas went was not really what anyone envisioned. For good or bad. Along the way, there was a ton of chances to expand on unanswered questions from the first three films. But they either didn't address it or, in a lot of ways, the prequels contradicted the first three films.
Palpatine foresaw his own death at the Second Death Star, over the Forest Moon of Endor, and yet he went there anyway. This tells us, dating all the way back to "Return of the Jedi," that Palpatine is VERY capable of seeing glimpses of the future, but... knowing that the future is not set, and that it is simply one of many possible futures, he goes to Endor anyway, knowing that Luke Skywalker will show up there. And he has Vader capture Luke Skywalker, and incites the saber fight between the two of them, with the hopes that Luke will give in to the Dark Side, and slay Vader, thus taking Vader's place as Palpatine's new Sith Apprentice, instead of killing Palpatine. This, of course, does not happen. In fact, it happens very much in a way that Palpatine clearly did NOT foresee, because his death involved Darth Vader betraying him... something that Palpatine had no notion was possible in the first place, otherwise he wouldn't have been so easily thrown down that reactor shaft by Vader.
Palpatine, I reckon, saw the Clone Wars breaking out very quickly, and him simply fixing things so that war did break out, while casting himself as the Chancellor who wanted to save the Republic. I don't think "Attack of the Clones" worked out entirely as Palpatine foresaw, but Palpatine, as he had already demonstrated in previous films, was very good at "thinking on the fly," and manipulating events so that they worked out in his favor after all. He does the same thing in "Episode III," when he nearly gets killed by Mace Windu, but then Anakin shows up, and Palpatine paints himself as the victim, while also convincing Anakin that Palpatine's death would only doom Padme' to the same fate. So Anakin panics, and chops Mace Windu's arms off, allowing Palpatine to force-throw him out of the window.
Regarding the assassination attempt on padme: the 2nd line of dialogue in the film is Padme's head of security remarking " I guess i was wrong, there was no danger after all" which of course means that he was made aware of some threat to padme's life and that it is probably the source of Padme's conclusion that it was Dooku behind the attempt (perhaps a rumour of the Trade federation siding with the separatists, Obi-wan is not surprised to see the leadership of the trade federation with Dooku). As you suggested, the information was likely sourced from Palpatine in order to either remove the anti-army vote leader or to force her and anikin together. Palpatine shows throughout that he has failsaves built throughout his plans, and even when things look like they are going badly he manages to turn them to his advantage.
I loved Palpatine's plan in this movie because he was absolutely successful. He won. Yoda even acknowledged it at the end. Yoda was the only one that knew they lost when he scoffed at Obi Wan when Obi claimed victory. Palpanine didn't need to authorize the building of an army, he already had it. Killing Padme wasn't to prevent her from voting, she was Duke Ferdinand or Hellen of Troy. She was the reason to start the war. When the Jedi recieved the army from the Caminoans and invaded Geonosha to save Padme, Palpatine won.
As for the conflict, this is reflected by most civil wars. As an example, the confederacy separating from the nation or the Lutherans seperating from the Vatican or eastern Europe pulling itself away from the USSR. 1. The larger organization will try to use force for the organization to be forced to remain within the organization. 2 Areas along the border of the conflict receive the most upheaval. Naboo was a nutrient rich planet on the edge of space. The Trade federation controlled the thorough lanes taxing trade.
Dooku was only trying to kill her because the Trade Federation wanted her dead. I always thought her assassination was part of the deal that the Trade Federation with Dooku as a condition of them joining The Confederacy of Independent Systems.
A big problem with Padmë’s characterization simply comes down to George Lucas’ political views.
He was anti-war.
The Empire was allegorical for the USA with rebels being any of the small Communist powers we were trying to topple.
Push openly criticized George Bush in the making of Episodes’s II and III.
Because of this, Padmë had to be portrayed as his idea of ‘the good guys’: anti-war, anti-military.
That is why she was against a Military despite her personal experience being an obvious argument and character arc for supporting that Military and thereby making her relationship with Anakin make more sense.
Attack of the Clones is my favorite Star Wars Movie (and I saw the original in the theater lol). All the awesome content that’s come after ATOC shows how much story and potential it had/has. And I don’t think it’s that far fetched for Padme to suspect Dooku because it’s easy to assume he’s been seen and known to be associated with theTrade Federation.
Ah, I finally have caught a Thor Skywalker's video early since I started working and been busy with school.
Some of these things makes a bit of sense. I can see a possible plan where using Jango for any mission kinda statistically leads to the discovery of the growing clone army, because he’s up against space wizards. Palpatine is using the Gandalf method of matching tasks to personnel, going against apparent logic because he has ”good feelings” about the outcome if he leaves the task of breaking into Mordor to the level 8 hobbits. I also see a possible path to his desired outcomes if Kenobi dies on Geonosis while Skywalker is developing his creepy incest-adjacent romance with Amidala. The jedi leadership could have been sent there to die too, and the clones could have been in time for a big battle, but too late to save anybody. The incredibly contrived circumstances that takes Anakin and Amidala there is just so the set piece battle and monster fight can happen. Gotta sell those toys…
But all of this is motivated reasoninging, attempting to create some logical story out of a movie that makes no damn sense on it’s own.
As for Dooku I remain convinced that not only do we not know what he’s trying to achieve, neither does he, nor the script writers. The question ”why would Amidala think that Dooku wants her dead?” is as baffling as you say. But personally I’m even more bothered by ”what does Dooku think he’s trying to do?”. The charisma and skills of Christopher Lee makes Dooku fascinating to look at on the screen, but that makes the wasted potential even sadder. I suspect last minute revisions.
Generally, I think the problem with the entire sequel is that Lucas was trying to do it all himself. He didn’t trouble-shoot the script with other writers. He didn’t get somebody else to do the dialogue. The over-arching vision is fine, but the execution lurches between merely competent and painfully ham fisted.
In defense of the Jango Saberdart angle-- Dexter seems to clue in on the manufacturing PROCESS rather than a specific logo. And the fact that he seems to say that the 'funny cuts on the side GIVE IT AWAY' implies there are other saberdarts in use and it's the specific esoterics of the Kaminoan saberdart that is important. Kind of like how-- if you know what you're looking for-- you can identify which factory & year a T-34 tank came out of based on the type of welding used to attach railings etc.
I think Jango didn't have any reason to think that he would be tracked back to Kamino & Palpatine's master plan prolly would have originally been for Dooku to simply exist as a big enough threat to bait the Jedi into a war regardless of whether it was kickstarted by Geonosis or not. After all- Dooku could build up his droid forces and attack any number of worlds in a manufactured political crisis like Naboo. there were any number of geopolitical powderkegs to exploit during this period so i think Geonosis just kinda fell into his lap.
all questions are clarified in the book for episode 2. I know that you shouldn't
have to read a book to understand a movie. but it's very interesting how the issue that Padme is actually an unwilling ally of the Separatists is actually brought up in depth. It would unfortunately be too complex to go into the questions individually, but the audio book is available in its entirety on RUclips, at least in German.
AOTC was the first SW film that I watched in theaters and I was uber-excited after I left the theater. A few thoughts on what’s been said.
- I think Padme is showing her ego a bit when she blames Count Dooku for the attempts on her life without stating any evidence. To her, there’s no reason why she shouldn’t be targeted because she’s been the center of attention her entire life.
- I think Jango believed that no one could track his Kaminoan dart. Dooku deleted all the records about Kaminoan from the Jedi Archives so probably told Jango the darts couldn’t be tracked back to him. It was really a coincidence (or Palpatine’s manipulations) that he ran into perhaps the only Jedi who had a friend that could tell him exactly what the markings were and where it was located.
You just have to remember that Palpatine saw everyone else as tools and nothing more. Even Jango Fett and Count Dooku.
Hey thor. I was thinking bout this today, especially the dialog. But George said it was supposed to be a dramatic classic. But yeah I totally agree. I'm sick today so this is the perfect cure ♥️
Any good plan includes a *contingency* or even better, multiple contingency plans.
If plan A fails, move on to plan A.1, if something deviates from that scheme, plan A.2 is on standby.
This is how a Machiavellian genius operates. Leave nothing to chance, plan carefully, but never hesitate to throw out a plan or part of the plan when it becomes obsolete.
I haven’t read the novelization of Revenge of the Sith since 2005, if I remember correctly, Palpatine wanted Obi Wan to go after Grievous because he knew Anakin wouldn’t turn to the dark side with Obi Wan around. Palpatine need Obi Wan out of the way to finish his plan. So, I think this all makes sense in the context of this video. I like 👍 it.
I always thought that palpatine had a general overarching strategy that involved creating chaos to eventually force the war and sew distrust in the Jedi. Even Anakin was just an afterthought and not the crux of his plan. Attributing all of the things that happened to his brilliance is a mistake because it makes the plot laughable.
It's no different than the idiocy of claimbing he was in control against Mace Windu. Mace was widely considered the best dualist among the Jedi and Yoda fought Palpatine to a draw, So claiming that his plan all along was to get himself into a one-on-one with windu, allow himself to be disarmed, get lightning shot back into his face just figuring him for life, and then count on Anakin to save him is ludicrous. Some of these things he might have seen in force visions and some he might have been planning on two or three different outcomes with ideas for how to handle each situation but he always was capable of being defeated right up to the point where he gained complete power with a loyal clone army.
I always thought the reason duku was trying to kill padme was because the viceroy gunray wanted revenge for the events of the phantom menace and that was his condition for supporting the separatist movement
Swap Anakin and Obi-Wan's roles. Have Anakin chace down Fett, his first assignment as a Jedi Knight, so Anakin feels extra confident about the mission, and maybe a little overly zealous too. Anakin can follow Jango to geonosis after a rather gruesome skirmish on Kamino, leaving maybe one or two younger Kaminoians to question whether building this clone army is really a good idea. Anakin can get captured on Geonosis, and because the name Anakin Skywalker in the OT is only barely mentioned, we can imagine that the Seps may really want to kill Anakin, but Anakin's strength in the Force proves just enough to leave him horribly scarred. Him being away from Padme, especially after arriving on Coruscant and being briefed that he'll be in charge of Padme's security since assassinations are becoming a little too common place for the, now Senator's safety.
Obi-Wan on the other hand, remains as Padme's Security on Naboo, we don't get the horrible sexual tension between Anakin and Padme, but a more brother-sister type of love. Padme can remark that, maybe creating an army to protect worlds firmly within the Republic is a good idea, while Obi-Wan, the more level-headed and wise, counsels her on higher morals and better methods. That, war is what the Sith and ultimately the Dark Side want. Padme can counter with, "The Sith haven't been seen in a millennium, and the Seps want Peace".
She might even ask if Dooku is capable of becoming Sith, maybe in this alternate timeline, Dooku is staunchly for the Republic, being sent to the Seps Home Capital to negotiate a compromise. Sidious can capture, corrupt and reveal his grand plan to Dooku and Dooku unknowingly begins to fall, which we see in real time during the movie, not told that Dooku fell by Jocasta Nu, almost 10 years ago.
Obi-Wan and Padme can grow close, leaving Anakin jealous, though, both Padme and Obi-Wan know that they're just friends.
When I was a little kid my uncle left his CD binder full of pirated movies at our house. One of them was AOTC and I use to watch it endlessly. Sorta like you as a kid and Return of the Jedi. This movie will always have a sentimental place in my heart. The battle of Geonosis blew my mind as a little 5 year old. While now grown up I can say it’s definitely not the best overall but damn I the clone wars is easily my favorite time frame in all of Star Wars
Padme is the protagonist of the last movie, she is the main character of that story after Qui-gon is killed by maul, the opening crawl of episode 2 states, there is unrest in the galaxy, 1000s of star systems have declared they want to break away, and it is headed by the mysterious count dooku. Having Padme accuse Dooku this early is there to set up distrust for him for the audience, for when we finally meet him on Genosis, this makes sense with what was going on in the scene, with them discussing an outcome that could come to war, because the ending of the crawl says the jedi are spread thin and overwhelmed but clearly state we are keepers of the peace not soliders, so they can't fight a war if the separatists do attack, which seems inevitable with all the systems breaking away, Padme has always been the one who wants to find a diplomatic solution, her arc from episode 1 wasnt learning to defend yourself, but by reaching out for help in your darkest hour, it's only later in the movie does she realize her idealistic view isn't always the case, and this is showed through her connection to anakin, with there playful banter of aggressive negotiations, so no she would never be for the creation of an army for the republic, so when we finally meet dooku, having Obi-Wan overhear him as the tactician and putting all these events in motion is a reason to have Obi-Wan distrust him in story even though we as the audience know everything he tells Obi-Wan is in fact true.
Zam was always the assassin sent to kill Padme, she just worked under Jango. When we are introduced to them she says I hit the ship but they used a decoy, to which he says there can be no mistakes this time, the dart is explained by the diner scene, Obi-Wan was unable to find anything on the dart it was untraceable, Dax even says it's these funny little marking on the side, those analysis droids only focus on symbols, meaning Obi-Wan had to find someone who may have been able to even know anything about the dart, so knowing Dax was lucky, this scene is the same scene as in episode 1 where they decided on the plan eating dinner at anakins house, it's a way to give exposition to the audience so we can understand where the story is heading, we see him looking for the planet and start to unravel the mystery of the creation of the clone army, when we make it to kamino it was unclear to the kaminons who they were waiting on, just the arrival of a jedi master, they never specifically say Obi-Wan, when he meets with Jango there interaction is telling, Jango knew he would need to discuss why he volunteered which is why he says, I'm just a simple man trying to make my way in the universe, which is where Obi-Wans line of questions change to the assassination attempt, which is why he asks Boba to close the door, his stern look at the end tells us, he knows he wasn't able to fool the jedi, and there is more to the story, he tried to get away before he was questioned further, this is in my opinion some of the best showcase of how manipulative Palpatine can be, he was able to change his plans at the last moment due to where all the pieces had fallen on the board, by playing off everyone's fears including and most importantly the jedi, that despite their desperate attempts war was inevitable
I have more to say but this comment is long enough, attack of the clones is an outstanding movie and so under appreciated, people say the romance isn't good, please 🙄, it's based off how plays were done in the 1930s when reintroducing characters after a long period of time
I usually find us on the same page thor, and I understand some of the criticism against the prequels, but that trilogy is amazing, there is no need to "rewrite" or change the story...
I'd love to see a star wars "what if" series to see these things play out.
Clone Wars established Palps didn’t plan *everything* but he had the general grand scheme down and was good at improvising when unknowns unexpectedly show up like Maul.
Palpatine is definitely the "grand architect" and a brilliant strategist, but I think some people give him a bit too much credit. He definitely orchestrated and played out the galactic conflict, but some of these smaller events, Padme and Anakin falling in love, Shmi's death, etc. I do not believe were part of his plan. He was just able to use these events to his advantage.
It makes sense because of the following reasons:
1. Padmé wasn’t being assassinated due to Palpatine’s influence, but rather due to Nute Gunray wanting her dead.
2. Palpatine was manipulating all sides and placed himself into a position of power wherein, no matter what side won, he would be on-top.
Most everything in the Prequels is being driven by Palpatine’s influence. Even when events seem to contradict Palpatine’s plans, he is able to utilize them to make them work in his favor.
Yes, and I think it would be perfectly reasonable for Padmé to know that Nute Gunray wants her dead and that Dooku is trying to get the Trade Federation to join the separatists, and draw a conclusion that Gunray could be using Dooku and the separatists to have her killed because given Gunray’s character he’s unlikely to directly get involved in her assassination (given all the legal battles that have happened regarding the invasion of Naboo, too).
I love AOTC. It’s my 2nd favorite Star Wars film. I don’t have the problem with Padmé at the movie’s beginning that you do, but then again I’m a Padmé fan and so maybe a bit biased. That said, I’ll say that you have a very thoughtful analysis here, even if I don’t agree with some of it. It’s nevertheless definitely great to see further detailed discussion about AOTC.
With Jango he likely has some gear made there .
Likely was payed to lead Jedi to Komano .possibly set up by Sidious .
I like the fact that conversations about the prequels are about whether or not moves and plans were smart and not whether this or that is more damaging to the lore as a whole, like in the sequels.
I can deal with bad/cheesy dialogue. But I can't deal with severe story inconsistencies and lore breaks.
Sorry UltimateTobi, I'm not looking to burst your bubble. I do like the substance that the Prequels offer. However, in the early 2000s, I remember that the Prequels themselves were certainly not exempt from scrutiny - similarly to that of the recent Sequels. You may already know this, but at the time, the Prequels impacted quite severely on the lore of the Original Trilogy - and for some - not in a good way.
I seem to recall quite a wide-spread splintering fan-vs-fan debate after Episode 1, and especially after the conclusion RotS in 2005.
•(Original Trilogy Idolizers)• WTF is a Midi-chlorian?! George ruined SW with this stupid mumbo-jumbo that now makes some people more special and more exclusively connected to the Force than others. Also, because of the Prequels, R2D2 then knew all along that Vader was Anakin and said nothing. We completely reject this retcon because it 'damages the lore' of the original films. F*%ck George Lucas.
I do feel sorry for those OT fans though, as they never really received a satisfying prequel series that matched their 80s dark grunge aesthetic, primarily because digital CGI accuracy rendered the hand-crafted wizardry of classic film-making obsolete. Technologically the Prequels feel disconnected from the Originals. For example, a pod-racer is cool, but far more advanced than Jabba's luxury sail barge. And don't get me started on Droideka shields.
Anyways, these debates are cyclical, and will repeat again in the future. Every new generation will inevitably be critical of the next because some editorial muppet will add/change something that somehow undermines previously established lore. Some very passionate people just naturally wish to protect their deeply personal stories from undesirable revision.
*Topical side-note. Kinda sucks to be a Batman fan, right now. How many reboots and revisions is it going to take before Hollywood can let Bob Kane/Bill Finger's 1939 co-creation rest in peace? It'll be almost 90 years of rewriting and recasting the same damn character to undertake the same heroic vigilante job.
Exactly. The prequels had a coherent story and WERE the franchise creator's vision. I wish we had seen George's real sequels.
@@J-Salamander69 Man, remember when the Clone Wars was fought between two clone militaries and not droids vs clones? Or that C-3PO was more like centuries old and not built by Anakin? Good times, good times. ;)
@@J-Salamander69 Except not really Jabba's Sail Barge was fairly advanced but it was built as a pleasure craft, Podracers were built for speed and look more like the kitbashed craft the Rebel Alliance used in the OT. Also if the Podracer looked more advanced the Sail Barge is both older due to how Hutts are extremely long-lived, and the two vehicles don't fill the same nice. You are comparing a DC-3 to a SR-71.
@@nekophht C-3P0 was still centuries old and the Clone Wars wasn't about two clone militaries ever.
Actually the brilliance of Palpatine is not that his plan always succeeds, but that he always quickly adapts to his own advantage when it partially fails (with great confidence or overconfidence). So it is hard to figure out what exactly was in his mind. Probably his Dark Side exceptional endowment gave him no perfect forecasts, but something like a general feeling that he was going to succeed at the end, which very in line with some kind of Dark Side arrogance. For example his plan in TPM was to keep the Naboo crisis ongoing to increase his power as chancellor, and he fails. The Clone Wars was the gigantic version of that plan.
I'm certain the discovery of Geonosis wasn't part of the plan since this endangered Anakin. Also it gave Dooku a chance to recruit either Anakin or Obi-wan.
With that said I actually believe Dooku when he says he wants to end the Sith and defeat Palpatine and knows he isn't nearly powerful enough and needs the dark side and in this case Obi-wan. He even says that Qui Gon would have joined him.
This however leaves a hole when it comes to episode III since Dooku does have Palpatine captured. Perhaps he knew that Sideous had control of the Republic in some way but didn't actually know that he was Palpatine (although the hood as a disguise is weak). Or he gave up at this point and decided to side fully with Sideous.
Without going into more recent political examples, I think the best real-life example for how ingenious Palpatine's plan was is to consider the War on Terror and the Patriot Act. Both of these issues deal with the role and responsibility of a Republic when handling a legitimate threat, and granting those in power with more extreme measures to bring about order. In both Star Wars and real-life, there are legitimate threats out there and some of these measures are necessary--but what are the checks and balances to make sure those in power give up that power when "peace" is brought about?
Now, as much as I like Palpatine's plan of accumulating power through subverting a republic, I'm not saying the plan from the movies is foolproof. Having the Kamino army being "discovered" in a roundabout way from a failed assassination and the love-interest subplot being a crucial part of that rise to power are the only parts that I feel is contrived. Everything else about Obi Wan, Anakin and Padme getting captured on Genosis feels more natural and spontaneous, so I don't have any qualms with that part of the film.
Well imo, the Kamino saber dart Jango was hoping for it to be too unique and untraceable but he didn't count on Obi wan's friend. Also I think Kenobi thought to check out the manufacturer since it is his only lead. But yeah Dooku or Sidious probably set the Bounty Hunter up.
It was quite literally the perfect way to create the largest army the galaxy has ever seen, at first in the name of good, then to use it against the people. It took care of 2 factions of enemies at once and paved the way to create another army that was serving now in fear.
I would love to see a series of videos that would basically be your take on how the prequel‘s should have gone, film by film. Kind of like how you used the world between worlds to fix the sequels. That is, use the established characters and events in the broad scheme of it, but change some of the specifics.
There is no need to change the story, the story in the prequels objectively is insanely better than the OT
Palpatine admits in the Book of Sith he set up the assassination attempts on Padme in order to then suggest she be placed under the protection of Anakin and Obiwan both to rid her vote against the Military Creation Act and to put Temptation in Anakin's path to make it easier to convert him to the Darkside. This part is speculation, but I assume Jango used the Dart on purpose, but he didn't expect Obiwan to have tracked him down on Kamino that quickly. Kamino was deleted from the Jedi Archives in order to buy time for the army to be grown without anyone noticing.
My thoughts could be, is that the clone wars wasn’t supposed to start yet, because if Obi wan didn’t find kamino the first battle of the clone war was geonosis. So after palpatine got the vote he was going to announce the new army of the republic
When I saw this in the Cinema I was so happy it was A LOT better than Ep1 and I still don’t understand how over time Ep2 became “the worst one”
I mean in TPM it was kind of clear something else was going on in the background, unseen by the Jedi. Would agree the story aint prefect but its not that complex to understand. The only thing is I think "talks" between Palpatine and Anakin werent put on film. As in Anakin seemed to tell Palpatine everything that was going on in his life at that time.
Agreed that not every element of the outcome was executed according to plan. That said, AOTC is a great SW movie. Intrigue, Action, Backstory, and great World building. One of the most heart wrenching moments to me in the saga will always be when Anakin leaves the Homestead to find Shmi. We all knew that it'd end in heartbreak for the apprentice. Personally, the Lost 20 should've been included, developed and shown at least as a flashback. It would've added so much more gravitas to an almost perfect villain, namely Dooku.
Dooku should have been introduced in Episode I, and had at least one conversation with Qui-Gon regarding the Republic's lack of involvment with the Naboo crisis, cuminating with him leaving the Jedi after Qui-Gon's death. That would have made his scene with Obi-wan later much more meaningful.
Regarding Palpatine's plan, I always intrepreted it as whoever one the conflict, the Sith would still come out ahead, even if one side had the odds purposefully stacked against it.
I think you misunderstand Palpy's planning. He doesn't schedule out a linear path of events that go from A to B to C and onward. That's weak planning by anyone. He sets actions into motion and schemes out contingencies for every outcome so he can manipulate the results, no matter what they are, to his advantage. I doubt Anakin falling for Padme was some crucial point of his scheme, or even turning Anakin at all, but just a seed planted that could be cultivated in time or ignored if it came to nothing.
To quite a forgettable episode of 'Smallville', "You don't go in with a plan, you go in with ten!"
Well said! That's why I took the Sith a millennia to come up with a functioning plan, even though they had started to undermine Republic's influence a long time before
I'd say Anakin had to fall to the dark side, just given that he had more potential than Yoda when it came to the force. I imagine that Palpatine would have found a way to turn him no matter what, simply because having a such powerful apprentice was worth the risk.
Of course, he might have considered that if Anakin died fighting Dooku, that that would be perfectly acceptable too (if you can't beat the previous apprentice, you're not really worthwhile training).
Written before the Prequels, Star Wars [Legends] Thrawn books had the Clone Masters as the villians of the Clone Wars. (see all 3 Star Wars [Legends] Thrawn books).
Seems like Palpatiene has trouble foreseeing when the Chosen One will die. Both by Anakin’s almost execution in AotC and by Anakin’s almost death at the hands of Luke in RotJ, except in the ladder movie Palpatiene wanted him to be killed which is the opposite of the former.
Jango was probably told he would be protected but wanted out but was also enticed slash (forced) persuaded to stay in the fold without full info just doing jobs here and there
if films were a series he could probably see a moment where he wants out but begrugingly stays for the ensurance of boba and making sure he has enough to support boba until he eventually dies
Don't forget Kamino was erased from the jedi archives so Jango probably didn't expect anyone to find him there.
Palpatine knew Anakin was 'the one' from very early on.
What Ob-wan only suspected, Palpatine knew as fact.
The most powerful force user the Galaxy had ever seen was a kid with crippling separation anxiety.
That much power and all that fear...what could go wrong?
This is gonna be wordy, but stay with me. It makes perfect sense that Padme assumes Dooku is trying to kill her, knowing he's the leader of the Separatists and its a perfect way for him to curry favor with the Trade Federation, who obviously want her dead.
Whether or not she was actually supposed to get killed is rather trivial, either way it plays into Palpatine's hands. An assassination attempt, even a failed one, stokes tensions that lead to the war he wants to start. If she dies, especially in the second attempt, Anakin still loses the woman he loves with him being unable to stop it. Palpatine already knows Anakin loves Padme, he doesn't need them to develope that, and he certainly doesn't need them having kids, which would be problematic for him as established in the OT.
The dart Fett used on Zam had no logo, no discernable markings on it. The Temple Archive droids couldn't even determine its make or origin. It was found by Dexter Jettster, Obi-Wan's friend. Dooku was very familiar with Jango Fett and the weapons used by him, having fought against him and the Mandalorians before. And Palpatine, following Anakin closely, would've also studied Kenobi, and known of his underground connections that could lead him places that conventional sources wouldn't. It's a calculated risk that pays off, because even though Fett doesn't expect it, Palpatine wants Kenobi to find Kamino at this time. As smart as Palpatine is, he cannot control every single aspect of his plan, some risks have to be taken and some things allowed to play out naturally, and, aided by the Force, he can do this successfully. There are certainly some flaws in the plot of this film, but overall, Palpatines's scheme is pretty brilliant and it does make sense.
I think that the dart Jango was using was planned Maybe Jango didnt try to kill Obi-Wan just had some fun with him He wanted Obi-Wan to follow him. Also somehow Palpatine made sure that Obi-Wan's transmition didn't go through so that he had to try to connect with Anakin. Maybe Palpatine didn't think Obi-Wan was enogh to start the war.
Dooku paying the Tuskins to kill Anakin's mom is an excellent addition. Anakin also being on another planet during the start of the Clone Wars would have added to his feeling of powerlessness.
"Why does Padme think Dooku wants to kill her?"
I dunno, her plane blowing up and her decoy dying is a pretty convincing reason.
"Why did Jango use a traceable dart"
To give the Republic the clone army.
No Jango had the dart because he was using them before he was contracted for the army. If anyone other than Jedi went to Kamino, they wouldn't been in the same city as Jango.
The question is why does she think Dooku is behind it. It makes me think that Padme must know Dooku quite a bit enough that she thinks that he’s trying to kill her because of the military Act vote.
I've still never fully understood the role of Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. He just went off on his own and ordered a Clone Army of hundreds of thousands to be created (along with procuring all the ships and weapons) on his own? Who funded it? Why was the Republic totally accepting of this rogue army? Didn't anyone find it suspicious that Jango Fett was working with Dooku and the separatists while being the originator of the clones?
Here's a thought: the Jedi council was complicit in the building of the clone army. This is revealed to Anakin in ROTS which further motivates his turn against the order.
Also, Padme's motivations don't make sense to me. She went from being the naive girl in TPM to then ruthlessly overthrowing Chancellor Velorum to give more centralized power to the Republic. Then she fought to reclaim her throne and free her planet. But then in AOTC she's back to being a pacifist? I think it would have worked better if she was a little more hawkish, actually pushing for a Republic Army and greater central power, and by ROTS she begins to realize she's been a pawn all along.
1. Master Sifo-Dyas had to go on his own because he was kicked out of the Jedi council for his radical and crazy beliefs in an upcoming war. When he kept insisting, he was then expelled from the order. When palpatine learned about the creation of a clone army, he sent dooku to investigate on the matter and then told dooku to find his old friend sifo dyas and kill him to prove his allegiance to the dark side. It’s also around this time that palpatine started laying out the foundations for the clone wars. Dooku was most likely the one who funded the clone army since he comes from a wealthy family, and he could also have told the kaminoans that he was a friend of sifo dyas and was paying for it on his behalf. The republic was accepting of the clone army because the senate was completely corrupt and full of yes-men who adored palpatine. Many star systems were feeling threatened by separatist presence, and with the discovery of a droid army, it gave the senators more incentive to trust palpatine and defend themselves.
The Jedi were in fact suspicious about jango fett working with the separatists. It was revealed by obi wan to the council in season 6 of clone wars during the sifo dyas arc, that the man called “tyrannus” (who we know is actually Darth Tyrannus) is count dooku. The Jedi didn’t want this to cause mass panic or become a scandal so they decided to keep it all a secret from the public and the senate.
2. Padme was 14 years old in TPM and was smart but also naive about galactic politics. This is shown in the lunch scene with shmi skywalker when she tells padme that the republic has no jurisdiction on Tatootine. Palpatine was exposing padme to the corruption that goes on in the senate and how they essentially control the chancellor like a puppet. So of course padme would vote against Velorum. She went to go fight because her people were suffering and she couldn’t abandon them. Padme didn’t become a pacifist after this, she was still willing to fight if there was no other option. However, it’s not the same thing to have a galactic army made for war than a small militia to defend your own planet from an invasion. It was all just a political thing. Padme “realizing she’s becoming a pawn”; if you were engulfed in 3 whole years of nothing but galactic war all while watching your republic slowly crumble and become more militaristic and corrupt, wouldn’t you feel used as well? Btw, padme doesn’t believe in centralized governments or dictators. She directly tells this to Anakin when he said that he would be fine with dictators “if it works”.
Palpatine obviously would have had multiple contingency plans in place incase things didn't go quite according to how he optimally envisioned them. We saw that sort of thing throughout the trilogy
I see it like Joker in Dark Knight. Palpatine's plan was layered and had contingencies for contingencies, it just so happened that this was the version of the plan we saw play out. That's how I justify it in Canon.
Outside of universe, George Lucas was great at worldbuilding, not so great at writing, so there's a lot of stuff that goes down that's absolutely absurd. The commonly pointed out one is an assassin fails to kill Padme, so the assassin hired an assassin that hired a Droid that delivered bugs to kill Padme.
I would like more videos about the prequels, including AOTC.
Maybe Padme says Dooku is trying to kill her because she knows he’s the leader of the separatist movement and that he is going to ally himself with the trade federation. And she knows that Gunray would only join if he gets something he wants in return, which is her assassination
I’m pretty sure that’s why she thinks that . I’ve always thought that it’s cos the trade federation an Gunray tried to kill her in the last movie why would they stop in the next movie. An dooku is there boss now so it’s him trying to kill her now .
For Jango's part i would expect Dooku had given him the dart (i think that is actually canon in some book) and that any Jedi was supposed to find the clone army but not Jango. Jango maybe had Geonosis as location to go to since Dooku was there and definitely wanted to kill Kenobi. I also believe that the war was supposed to start on another planet entirely because if the Jedi had used the clone army from the start of the arena fight, there is a chance that Dooku, Gunray and Poggle are killed/captured and the death star plans discovered which would be way too much risk.
Oh yes, please give us the follow-up where you talk about how you’d fix AotC! Would love to hear your thoughts!
The story of Aotc is amazing, when people try and meddle with it, it turns out to be shit