in the world of Tolkien where you already know that well God and the Valar exists id rather be a Numenorean IMO..would you like to be stuck in a changing world ? Yes even Valinor is subject to change albeit to a crawl
The Numenoreans of old embraced death and gave up their life willingly before they became old men in dotage. Men of today are already scared of death in their 20s.
The video was long enough, and honestly, I didn't think to mention this until after I finished the video. I want to draw attention to the declining Numenorean lifespan, specifically when Numenor first turned to the shadow and the kings (and Tar-Vanimelde) of Numenor were experiencing drops in their lifespan numbering in the decades. For most of us, barring those who unluckily fall short due to illness or accidents, we can be reasonably confident we can at least make it into our 70s. We have a rough idea of when our lives will end, and provided circumstances have been good to us, we can plan our lives accordingly. We know when we're young, we know when we're middled aged, we know when we're old, and we know when we don't have much time left. Although it was due to their own doing, I want to point out the existential dread that the Numenoreans must've been facing in this time. With their lifespan falling by the generation, it would've given them the terror of not really knowing when they were going to die. Just because their parents reached a certain age, there was no guarantee they would reach that age or even get close to that age. Using someone like Tar-Vanimelde as an example, she might've believed that she had another 30-40 years of life left considering that her father, Tar-Telemmaite, had reached 390. Instead, she died at the age of 360. It would've been the same for Tar-Alcarin - he knows he won't hit 400, but he might at least expect to reach his mother's age. He doesn't, and instead dies at 331. Each successive ruler of Numenor (as well as other Numenoreans) would've lived the back half of their lives in constant fear, not knowing when old age was about to creep up on them, not knowing when their time was up, and not knowing when they could no longer make plans for the future because that future was not going to happen.
The fear of death or more so the unknown is laid out perfectly by Tolkien’s works. Fear is the greatest corrupter of good people. Fear of losing someone, fear of death, fear of the unknown all wrapped up in the package of the fear of losing power (in most cases over their own lives). Death is the price we all must pay for the lives we are given.
@@TheMasonK very relevant in today's age as well. Fear is used by those in power to control us. Just look at the image of fear we constantly see on the news.
In terms of a personal question, what Age is your favorite? I find the allure of the Edain to be great, but, at the same time, the freedom of the 4th Age is astonishing. It's why the wood elves are my favorite, because their the only elves that still have a king, and the only elves that stay in Middle Earth into the 4th Age.
@@riftbandit223 I've never really thought about it. I think the First Age is probably my favourite. It's equally heroic and prosperous, yet also tragic too.
Very nice! I'm so happy you mentioned the Druedain, they're some of the most fascinating creatures in Middle-Earth IMO. And your theories on Orc's lifespan are quite interesting. I actually enjoy this kind of longer videos, it allows to go deeper into a subject... and this one is particularly worth the length! :)
I figure orcs are basically cancer-ridden from the start and it's only their elvish ancestry and the boost from dark lords do they carry on as long as they do Trolls are similar but probably more resilient and fade into stones as ents fade into trees. Good stuff, but you sealed the sub right the end! hahaha nice one.
Very interesting and well researched. The relationship of lifespans to Arda and of the lifespans of other races is at the heart of truly understanding Tolkien. The fear of ones own mortality or the grief of the Elves at seeing the mortality of others shapes so many events and perspectives.
According to Tolkien, the central themes of LOTR are death and immortality. One race doomed to die and leave the world; another doomed to remain until it ends. I think Elves are Tolkien's idealized versions of humans - immortal, powerful, wise, ethereal. At the same time, they are also subject to anger, arrogance, violence, grief and can be aged by physical or psychological torment, and by the Third Age have a sadness to them. They do not leave the world, but death is still consequential. Fascinating ponderings.
As someone who grew up watching Lord of the Rings, it blows my mind that we know so much and can accurately assume what we don't know, even Tom Bombadil who I used to believe was just an intentional mystery and probably still is, but I choose to think that he's a literal embodiment of the Song of the Ainur and it's Discord with Melkor, similar to Ungoliant being (maybe) the literal embodiment of the Void
Something interesting in Tolkein's works as well as other fantasy works is the way that magic works opposite to nature. Normal, natural creatures subject to evolution can be expected to become steadily better adapted and more powerful than their predecessors in a sense. Magic is the opposite with each generation becoming less powerful than the one before. The spiders are a great example. Shelob is powerful, but never anywhere near the power of her mother Ungoliant. Shelob's children in Mirkwood never reach her level of power. Elves also show a steady decline in power. First Age elves seem to be much, much more powerful than those born in the Third Age. Dragons show that decline in fantasy works outside of Tolkein. You go from massive beasts of power down to drakes and wyverns. I'm not sure if Tolkein dragons reproduce or if each was a unique creation of Morgoth. Certainly Sauron, heir to Morgoth's legacy, is much weaker than Morgoth.
From what i remeber Smaug describes himself as young when he took Erebor, but he called himself old when the dwarves came for him. So he must have been born in the 3rd age. Also i think he is a descendent of the red dragon of Godndolin.
That goes with Tolkien's view of decaying of greatness troughout time, and also most mythologies have this aspect of more magical and powerful things in the past.
Sauron in the third age is in fact much more powerful than Morgoth near the end. Morgoth started out much stronger than ALL Valar combined, but he corrupted Earth so much and spent so much power over tens of thousands of years that near the end he could be defeated by mortal men. Sauron hadn't spent so much power by the war of the ring and he had much more left. Granted, most of his power existed in The Ring, so when it was destroyed, only a weak shadow was left.
In most of the ones that are based on Tolkein's works they do that but in others the more magical the creature is the longer the lifespan. One of the longest is Dragons are the most long lived race in most Fantasy settings. Example Dragons in the Merlin series like Basilgarrad
Good video and keep up awesome work and I wish I was of numenorean lifespan like that of Elros so I could see my great great great great great great great great ... grandchildren and see how technology evolves over time
That's a very interesting topic, it's worth mentioning that Miriel, who is I believe the only one that laid out her life willingly, wished for mannish death. Also, AFAIK, half-elves are mortal, not immortals. All descendants of Men are mortals, except those of Earendil's line until one of their ancestor chooses to be a man.
Yep, I should've specified further about Half-elves such as Galador, Dior or Eldarion being mortal. My words about Half-elves being immortal until they make a choice were mostly aimed at Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir.
@@meduseldtales3383 Check the words of Manwe to Eärendil, regarding the ban: _Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them..._
9:14 "...and a direct descendant may have lived longer." Eärnil was a direct descendant in the male line from Telumehtar Umbardacil - just like Ondoher. His great-grandfather was the brother of Narmacil II. There's no reason to think that lack of royal title for two generations would cause any lessening of longevity, as Tolkien makes no mention of Eärnil's non-royal forbears mixing with those of non-Númenorean blood. Furthermore, is a second cousin once-removed "distant?" It's not close but it's not all that far away either. His grandfather would have been first cousin to Ondoher's father Calimehtar, and his father second cousin to Ondoher.
Very good! People seem to think hobbits, Dunedain and dwarves were far more longlived because of some single characters... but Hobbits only live to an age of c 100, dwarves 200, and dunedain, at their decline, also only 100.youre absolutely right.What we don't know:Orcs! They are said to be shortlived even in comparison to men, just like Druedain... but Bolg was above 144... another exceptional character.
I thought Orcs have short lives because how brutally violent and cruel what passes for society amongst orcs. We just don't see Orcs living long enough to old age because they are constantly being killed either on the battlefield or being back stabbed in betrayals
9:29 Valandil did, however have one of the longest reigns, being a child when crowned king 16:02 The Mouth of Sauron is said to use sorcery to extend his lifespan , so he is an exception not the rule
On Durin's the first age in Tolkien's Gateway they estimate at minimum his age was 2,395 years in Sun and Moon Years but if he awoke at the earlier date of 1050 and just count the Tree years he would be 4312 sun and Moon years if you include the First Age and since he died late in the First Age. I would add another 400 years to his age. Meaning that Durin I lived for nearly five thousand years at maximum. You must also realize that Durin didn't have a childhood he was created as an adult and what point in his adult life is unknown. If he was born and still had the same lifespan you could at minimum add another 1000 to 2000 years to his lifespan.
In my opinion, at the end of Third age: - The Rangers of the North can live to be around 100 years old and their Chieftain can live from 150 - 160 years old. - The Steward of Gondor and the Prince of Dol Amroth can live from 100 - 120 years old depending on his nobility and mightiness. In addition, lesser nobles of Gondor can live from 80 - 100 years old.
yes most orcs live really short lives but some of the older breds could live longer and other changes to them over the yrs created changes in some of them and this could cause those like Bolg and his group to have longer lives i see this as the same thing as most people forgetting that the orcs were a few different types and each was not the same as the other
Dior being considered a Half-Elf is a bit of a tricky thing since he was born after Beren and Luthien were resurrected, meaning that Luthien was considered a part of the race of Men at the time. Because of this one would think Dior would be a full blooded Man, for if was an Elf and so was his wife, Nimloth, than how could his children (Elured, Elurin, and Elwing) be considered Half-Elves. And had he not been killed, he may have lived long similar to Elros, or been joined to the fate of the Elves like Tuor. I personally believe his fate was joined to that of the Elves because there is no point in Middle-Earth's history that the Elves took a Man for King. That and in Shaping of Middle-Earth it is stated that the souls of Half-Elves will be reincarnated just like Elves and one of the names specifically mentioned was Dior's.
You can also note that hobbits are considered adults at 30. If it reflect their metabolism and not just a cultural quirk, it's normal they also age slower than normal men.
I think the numenorean that live about 350y/o are not the commoner it's the lord of Andunie. We can see it on High King Elendil The Tall, he still can fight a lesser god(fallen maia) along side an elf king Gil Galad, at 322y/o.
Speaking of 'Choices' and 'Elladan and Elrohir,' I don't think that they had much of a choice. If I recall correctly, their longevity was utterly dependent on Elrond. By which, I mean- As long as Elrond remained in M.E., then they would remain Elven and immortal. However, should Elrond leave M.E.., then the twins would become mortal, would begin to age and would, one day, die. Of course, they were invited into Valinor with the remaining Sindar and Noldor as were left in M.E. in the 4th age. Had they gone, they would have remained among the Eldar. However, the twins (iirc) elected to remain in M.E. for a time.
13:48 it was a combination of magic declining and knowledge declining and environment changing - the same way that a human of the current era lives longer in good hygienic conditions with antibiotics and modern medicine, naturally if Gondor was strong then there was more food and less unsanitary conditions which means the body has to fight less to live and thus lives longer - on the other hand after Gondor and Arnor weaken due to famine, plagues and needing to change into a more militaristic style as well as losing some knowledge (akin to a slight fall to the Middle Ages) lead to a reduction of lifespan due to worse life conditions and stress - stress may be also quite an important factor since Numenoreans shared some tratis with Elves and Elves could actually fade or die of sadness, even if it was rare; and you mentioned how Hobbits may have lived longer due to a stress-free life.
I got say regarding the life spans of humans in Middle Earth is actually pretty similar to the decline of lifespans after the Flood in the Bible. Where Men used to live commonly 900 years to the now barely 120 years and lower. This is actually address in the book of Jubilees much more which few people read. One of the reasons explained why Man's lifespan further declined even if they were good righteous people was because evil committed by other people they were around affected them as well though indirectly. And you can argue few diverse genetic bloodlines contributed as a factor but nevertheless this is pretty similar to JRR Tolkien's writing a bit about the subject. I doubt JRR Tolkien read the book of Jubilees since he was a Catholic so he probably heard of it but didn't check it out much but was probably influenced by the Flood story in some ways and decided to add his little thought process on how the decline went in his stories in some way.
So before the Valar gave the half elven a choice to be mortal humans or immortal elves, what was the lifespan like for the half elven during The Silmarillion?
We're unsure. Before the Valar gave them a choice, Half-elves such as Dior, Elured and Elurin had already been killed. The general consensus is that Dior was a Man and would've lived a Man's lifespan, as is the case with other Half-elven offspring such as Galador and Eldarion.
As a wise Shad once said, BUT WHAT ABOUT DRAGONS? YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE DRAGONS! Probably same as the eagles but still worth a mention, as they are also sentient. And what's up with the Mearas? The lords of horses? Legend has it some could once talk.
You're right. My bad. Just for you - we're not sure how long Dragons could live for. Glaurung lived for several centuries, as did Smaug, so we know that much at least. As for Mearas, they're said to live as long as Men, so a fair bit longer than normal horses.
@@DarthGandalfYT Perfect, now I can go to bed knowing all is well in the world. Half a year from now you can re-release the video with this extra snippet and call it the extended edition. It worked for Jackson so who knows, aye? XD But seriously, thanks.
They were immortal, but they did "age" slowly. When Saruman arrived in Middle-earth, he mostly had black hair, but by the end it was almost entirely white.
Orcs could also have a prolonged life perhaps for a number of reasons, such of corruption, evil relics, other dark magic or sorcery, etc. I would like to know more, but like…. I can’t fault Tolkien for not creating an expansive enough universe, lol.
I'm not sure Ungoliant was just a giant spider. Wasn't she one of the maiar corrupted by Melkor? Didn't she and Shelob take spider forms to terrorize their victims?
If I recall correctly, the math for mortality is that any human past I think it was 105 has no more chance of dying when they hit 106 or any number higher than when they hit 105. So in theory a human who say hits 125 has the same chance of dying as a human hitting 105. I guess technically that means we are potentially immortal, but that's some shady shit. Regardless most people when they think Immortality do not mean eternal life, they mean eternal youth. Being in your prime for eternity effectively.
One of the important things to consider regarding the decreasing lifespans of all the mortal races is that each generation is further from the creation event for their species. Eru created each race as paragons of their form, and each generation deteriorated from their initial perfection. This is also true of the immortal races: the earliest Elves and Ents were more powerful and had greater abilities and achievements than their descendants
One of the problems I have with immortal elves interacting with mortal men is that immortals who have lived for thousands of years simply wouldn’t connect meaningfully with men who’d only been around for a few decades. A simple analogy would be an elderly person trying to connect with a toddler or young child as an equal. Sure, there can be some of connection, but the difference in experiences and wisdom are just so incredibly stark that the relationship is entirely imbalanced and not at all like that purported by Aragorn and Arwen.
This is very touched on, and represents a lot of some interpersonal conflict within Arwen & Aragorn, Bergen & Luthien, Tuor & Idril, and so on, and why their relationships stood out. Although it’s a different legendarium R.A. Salvatore also paints quite beautifully on various occasions connections between elves, humans and so on. There’s no absolute to the role age plays in a relationship, though there’s “norms” or “typical” situations that shouldn’t speak to what can be. Humans sometimes have dogs, cats, what have you for their whole life and though none live as long as they I’d argue those are meaningful connections that others will never understand…. Humans likely end up like dogs for elves. Just kidding, but hmmm…🤔
I would compare it more to a human loving their pets. Dogs, cats, or bunnies generally live barely above a decade, but many people still love them like any other member of their family. In this sense, a thousand years old elf can connect in a similar way to a human who lives for one hundred years. The inevitability of your companion's early departure is something every individual has to deal with, and depending on their personality, everyone will handle it differently. There would indeed be elves that wouldn't want associate with men because of this reason, but there would be also those that wouldn't mind and accept it as a natural way of things.
Aragorn has the wisdom of the past in him, so to speak, he is clearly beyond his age, but of course there is truth, in a sense, that elves and men do not connect very well, since they are from different races (species), thats why there are so few instances of inbreeding between them, and why is such a bid deal when it happens. Another thing is that Aragorn is from the line of Earendil, which sons were twins Elros and Elrond, Aragorn a direct descedant of Elros and Arwen is the daughter of Elrond, we know the importance that bloodline plays in Tolkien's mythology, so Aragorn and Arwen are bound and connected to some extent, by default. The real impressive occurance was of Beren and Luthien, which had no relation between each other and was the first instance of relationship between the two races. Lastly, I dont think your analogy applies, since there is a point of diminishing returns where you grow older and older but you change very little, the same way that we rapidly grew and change in just a few years early on.
@@davidento9611 Agreed, I think that even though Tolkien never mentions this, one of the reasons I think that Men would not belong and be allowed in Valinor is to spare the Elves of the suffering of seeing their friends dying so quickly, specially as they were going to become closer and surely there were going to be more mixed relationship, which would lead to a lot of sorrow for the Elves because they can never truly understand death. Thats why Valinor is for the Elves and Middle earth is for the Men.
Elves don't really much all that interesting with all their time though, they just kind of play harps and sing, drink some wine. Men have shorter lives but pack more in and are generally more interesting.
Something I've always wondered, would Aragorns Son not have had the bloodline of half elvern restored due to his Mother being an elf? I guess it doesn't work like that.
Arwen is also of the half-elven lineage, in fact the same lineage as Aragorn himself, except his distant ancestor who is Elrond's brother chose to be mortal. By staying in Middle Earth to be with Aragorn, she made her choice of mortality, so technically she was already a human, or at least wasn't an elf anymore, when she gave birth to Aragorn's children.
Isn't Shelob a magical entity that can change form into a woman? Is that cannon in the literature, or is that just the games Shadows of Mordor/Shadows of War???
The elves interest me because of an ideology. That given a short lifespan, beings are driven to achieve great things. Given an eternal lifespan, beings would not create much of anything grand or meaningful, because they have eternity to achieve it.
Okay... I only have one comment: what is that misconception that Arwen only lived as long as Aragorn!?! Tolkien himself has wrote that After Aragorn died Arwen stayed in the kingdom and watch her son grew and his sons grew up and after generations passed and there was no one to remember Aragorn's and Arwen's love, she left the kingdom and walked to the withered Lothlorien where she laid beneath the trees and took her own life - And there on the hills of Lothlorien shall dwell evergreen tomb of Arwen Undomiel. Or is it just more romantic to think they died almost together and never apart???
According to Appendix A, she was changed right after Aragorn's death on March 1, and soon said farewell to Eldarion and her daughters and left for Lorien, dwelling there for the winter and dying just before spring, so about a year later, which was what I thought I remembered. Aragorn ruled for about 122 years, so she would have seen her children grow by then.
All evidence points towards Beornings living a normal human lifespan. Beorn was dead by the time of the War of the Ring (70 years later), and his son was known as Grimbeorn the Old.
Arwen lived longer than Aragorn. After he passed, she went to dwell in Lothlorien until she faded out. I don't believe Arwen was half-elven as both of her parents were elven. Elrond had chosen his elven heritage, so I'm pretty sure that means he was technically no longer half-elven. But either way, Arwen was not half-elven.
Always wondered if Tolkien planned for non-humans to be ageless but later changed his mind. Otherwise, "Nine for mortal men, doomed to die," makes no sense. Unless dwarves have a different afterlife.
Tolkien's dwarwes themselves believe that their spirits are immortal and go to Valinor after bodily death as well, but dwarf spirits dwell in a separate place in Halls of Mandos, where Aule himself takes care of them. They also believe that after end of the world, all of the dwarwes are reincarnated to join Aule is crafting of a new world.
It seems Adunaic continued in Dol Amroth to a certain extent given that Imrahil is an Adunaic name as well. He might be "the Numenorean" because he embodied Numenorean traits more than his peers.
Elves immortality is sucked, I mean you get to live forever but everything seems to be less important and you can witness a lot of painful stuff, Imagine we see everyone you love and care die one by one after 1k years war with Darkness
But bear in mind they don't truly die like we do, at least, unless the world is destroyed. The Elves assert that men and elf face the same future of demise with no guarantee of return, but so long as Arda exists they can be reborn and live in Valinor after dying.
but they have an"easy2 way to escpae,alaValinor,also when they died they just end up in Mandos all to be returned in a phsycial phorm and lbing in thebelssing undying lands, while the other races have no chanche to escape ,lie the secondobor mne,thay are doomed to die,and have no chanche of blessing place protected by the valar like elves
Yeah, lifespan doesn't really count for the nazgul. Since they're undead it could be argued that, even though they are 4000+ years old, their lifespan ended long ago.
There were only nine Ringwraiths,all formerly men and kings. Their fate was tied to that of the One ring, and when it was unmade the surviving eight perished. The ninth was destroyed by Eowyn of Rohan at the battle of the Pellenor fields before Minas Tirith during the war of the Ring.
Skinchangers (aka Beornings) seem to have the lifespan of an average Man. We know this because Beorn was dead by the time of the War of the Ring (70 years later), and his son was known as Grimbeorn the Old. Tom Bombadil is seemingly immortal.
What is your connection to geographic science? Sometimes you say stuff that sounds like someone with a good knowledge of geographical science. I'm a geography teacher from Amsterdam, hence I know.
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I envy the Númenóreans'/Dúnedain's extended mortal lifespan of 200 to 500 years more than the immortality of the elves.
You say that, but before you know it, you're approaching your 400th year and you're wishing that you were immortal like the Elves.
@@DarthGandalfYT and decide to declare war on the gods.
@@DarthGandalfYT The Elves were also made for their fate. It wasn't designed to be a living hell for them, and it likely is not.
in the world of Tolkien where you already know that well God and the Valar exists id rather be a Numenorean IMO..would you like to be stuck in a changing world ? Yes even Valinor is subject to change albeit to a crawl
The Numenoreans of old embraced death and gave up their life willingly before they became old men in dotage. Men of today are already scared of death in their 20s.
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The video was long enough, and honestly, I didn't think to mention this until after I finished the video. I want to draw attention to the declining Numenorean lifespan, specifically when Numenor first turned to the shadow and the kings (and Tar-Vanimelde) of Numenor were experiencing drops in their lifespan numbering in the decades. For most of us, barring those who unluckily fall short due to illness or accidents, we can be reasonably confident we can at least make it into our 70s. We have a rough idea of when our lives will end, and provided circumstances have been good to us, we can plan our lives accordingly. We know when we're young, we know when we're middled aged, we know when we're old, and we know when we don't have much time left.
Although it was due to their own doing, I want to point out the existential dread that the Numenoreans must've been facing in this time. With their lifespan falling by the generation, it would've given them the terror of not really knowing when they were going to die. Just because their parents reached a certain age, there was no guarantee they would reach that age or even get close to that age. Using someone like Tar-Vanimelde as an example, she might've believed that she had another 30-40 years of life left considering that her father, Tar-Telemmaite, had reached 390. Instead, she died at the age of 360. It would've been the same for Tar-Alcarin - he knows he won't hit 400, but he might at least expect to reach his mother's age. He doesn't, and instead dies at 331. Each successive ruler of Numenor (as well as other Numenoreans) would've lived the back half of their lives in constant fear, not knowing when old age was about to creep up on them, not knowing when their time was up, and not knowing when they could no longer make plans for the future because that future was not going to happen.
The fear of death or more so the unknown is laid out perfectly by Tolkien’s works. Fear is the greatest corrupter of good people. Fear of losing someone, fear of death, fear of the unknown all wrapped up in the package of the fear of losing power (in most cases over their own lives). Death is the price we all must pay for the lives we are given.
This video was long enough to use up a significant portion of my lifespan
@@TheMasonK very relevant in today's age as well. Fear is used by those in power to control us. Just look at the image of fear we constantly see on the news.
In terms of a personal question, what Age is your favorite?
I find the allure of the Edain to be great, but, at the same time, the freedom of the 4th Age is astonishing. It's why the wood elves are my favorite, because their the only elves that still have a king, and the only elves that stay in Middle Earth into the 4th Age.
@@riftbandit223 I've never really thought about it. I think the First Age is probably my favourite. It's equally heroic and prosperous, yet also tragic too.
my grandma lived to 95 years Me double that with my numenorean bloodline
Laughs in Umli
Very nice! I'm so happy you mentioned the Druedain, they're some of the most fascinating creatures in Middle-Earth IMO. And your theories on Orc's lifespan are quite interesting.
I actually enjoy this kind of longer videos, it allows to go deeper into a subject... and this one is particularly worth the length! :)
I have watched this video at least 5 times and I have enjoyed and found it informative every time. Thanks.
I figure orcs are basically cancer-ridden from the start and it's only their elvish ancestry and the boost from dark lords do they carry on as long as they do Trolls are similar but probably more resilient and fade into stones as ents fade into trees.
Good stuff, but you sealed the sub right the end! hahaha nice one.
My favourite Tolkien lore channel. Love the humour thrown in
Please make more of these long videoes. I enjoy how detailed it gets, when there is more time
Very interesting and well researched. The relationship of lifespans to Arda and of the lifespans of other races is at the heart of truly understanding Tolkien. The fear of ones own mortality or the grief of the Elves at seeing the mortality of others shapes so many events and perspectives.
According to Tolkien, the central themes of LOTR are death and immortality. One race doomed to die and leave the world; another doomed to remain until it ends. I think Elves are Tolkien's idealized versions of humans - immortal, powerful, wise, ethereal. At the same time, they are also subject to anger, arrogance, violence, grief and can be aged by physical or psychological torment, and by the Third Age have a sadness to them. They do not leave the world, but death is still consequential. Fascinating ponderings.
As someone who grew up watching Lord of the Rings, it blows my mind that we know so much and can accurately assume what we don't know, even Tom Bombadil who I used to believe was just an intentional mystery and probably still is, but I choose to think that he's a literal embodiment of the Song of the Ainur and it's Discord with Melkor, similar to Ungoliant being (maybe) the literal embodiment of the Void
Something interesting in Tolkein's works as well as other fantasy works is the way that magic works opposite to nature. Normal, natural creatures subject to evolution can be expected to become steadily better adapted and more powerful than their predecessors in a sense. Magic is the opposite with each generation becoming less powerful than the one before. The spiders are a great example. Shelob is powerful, but never anywhere near the power of her mother Ungoliant. Shelob's children in Mirkwood never reach her level of power. Elves also show a steady decline in power. First Age elves seem to be much, much more powerful than those born in the Third Age. Dragons show that decline in fantasy works outside of Tolkein. You go from massive beasts of power down to drakes and wyverns. I'm not sure if Tolkein dragons reproduce or if each was a unique creation of Morgoth. Certainly Sauron, heir to Morgoth's legacy, is much weaker than Morgoth.
From what i remeber Smaug describes himself as young when he took Erebor, but he called himself old when the dwarves came for him. So he must have been born in the 3rd age. Also i think he is a descendent of the red dragon of Godndolin.
That goes with Tolkien's view of decaying of greatness troughout time, and also most mythologies have this aspect of more magical and powerful things in the past.
"Everything was better in the past, trust me I know even though I wasn't there"
- Tolkien the ultimate boomer
Sauron in the third age is in fact much more powerful than Morgoth near the end. Morgoth started out much stronger than ALL Valar combined, but he corrupted Earth so much and spent so much power over tens of thousands of years that near the end he could be defeated by mortal men. Sauron hadn't spent so much power by the war of the ring and he had much more left. Granted, most of his power existed in The Ring, so when it was destroyed, only a weak shadow was left.
In most of the ones that are based on Tolkein's works they do that but in others the more magical the creature is the longer the lifespan. One of the longest is Dragons are the most long lived race in most Fantasy settings. Example Dragons in the Merlin series like Basilgarrad
Good video and keep up awesome work and I wish I was of numenorean lifespan like that of Elros so I could see my great great great great great great great great ... grandchildren and see how technology evolves over time
That's a very interesting topic, it's worth mentioning that Miriel, who is I believe the only one that laid out her life willingly, wished for mannish death.
Also, AFAIK, half-elves are mortal, not immortals. All descendants of Men are mortals, except those of Earendil's line until one of their ancestor chooses to be a man.
Yep, I should've specified further about Half-elves such as Galador, Dior or Eldarion being mortal. My words about Half-elves being immortal until they make a choice were mostly aimed at Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir.
@@DarthGandalfYT Don't worry, I'll simply flag your video for orange arrows. I think a title like "RUclipsr Darth Gandalf is a Liar" will do the job.
@@DarthGandalfYT Is there any evidence that Dior was counted among mortals?
@@meduseldtales3383
Check the words of Manwe to Eärendil, regarding the ban:
_Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them..._
9:14 "...and a direct descendant may have lived longer." Eärnil was a direct descendant in the male line from Telumehtar Umbardacil - just like Ondoher. His great-grandfather was the brother of Narmacil II. There's no reason to think that lack of royal title for two generations would cause any lessening of longevity, as Tolkien makes no mention of Eärnil's non-royal forbears mixing with those of non-Númenorean blood. Furthermore, is a second cousin once-removed "distant?" It's not close but it's not all that far away either. His grandfather would have been first cousin to Ondoher's father Calimehtar, and his father second cousin to Ondoher.
Very good! People seem to think hobbits, Dunedain and dwarves were far more longlived because of some single characters... but Hobbits only live to an age of c 100, dwarves 200, and dunedain, at their decline, also only 100.youre absolutely right.What we don't know:Orcs! They are said to be shortlived even in comparison to men, just like Druedain... but Bolg was above 144... another exceptional character.
Half elves: as dunedain or as elves.Except for Earendils family all are mortal!
I thought Orcs have short lives because how brutally violent and cruel what passes for society amongst orcs. We just don't see Orcs living long enough to old age because they are constantly being killed either on the battlefield or being back stabbed in betrayals
Fascinating!!
i cant believe i had never heard of this channel..
The con of being an immortal elf is that your fate is tied to the fate of Arda, and you cannot escape that fate.
Searching for this video for a while
Thank you!
I want the extended mortal lifespan of the Numenoreans/The Dunedain.
First you got to build a flying boat
9:29 Valandil did, however have one of the longest reigns, being a child when crowned king
16:02 The Mouth of Sauron is said to use sorcery to extend his lifespan , so he is an exception not the rule
Very good video
On Durin's the first age in Tolkien's Gateway they estimate at minimum his age was 2,395 years in Sun and Moon Years but if he awoke at the earlier date of 1050 and just count the Tree years he would be 4312 sun and Moon years if you include the First Age and since he died late in the First Age. I would add another 400 years to his age. Meaning that Durin I lived for nearly five thousand years at maximum. You must also realize that Durin didn't have a childhood he was created as an adult and what point in his adult life is unknown. If he was born and still had the same lifespan you could at minimum add another 1000 to 2000 years to his lifespan.
This guy knows the lore and I love it.
I already stated this before but I would really prefer the
150-200 lifespan of non-royal Numenoreans/Dunedain than the Immortal races.
Huh? You'd prefer to die? Eh?
The last thing he says in this video is the reason I subscribed
The most aussie outro ever 🤣
In my opinion, at the end of Third age:
- The Rangers of the North can live to be around 100 years old and their Chieftain can live from 150 - 160 years old.
- The Steward of Gondor and the Prince of Dol Amroth can live from 100 - 120 years old depending on his nobility and mightiness. In addition, lesser nobles of Gondor can live from 80 - 100 years old.
yes most orcs live really short lives but some of the older breds could live longer and other changes to them over the yrs created changes in some of them and this could cause those like Bolg and his group to have longer lives i see this as the same thing as most people forgetting that the orcs were a few different types and each was not the same as the other
"They can give up and die, a power ever millennial whishes' they had" hahahahahahaha
Dior being considered a Half-Elf is a bit of a tricky thing since he was born after Beren and Luthien were resurrected, meaning that Luthien was considered a part of the race of Men at the time. Because of this one would think Dior would be a full blooded Man, for if was an Elf and so was his wife, Nimloth, than how could his children (Elured, Elurin, and Elwing) be considered Half-Elves. And had he not been killed, he may have lived long similar to Elros, or been joined to the fate of the Elves like Tuor. I personally believe his fate was joined to that of the Elves because there is no point in Middle-Earth's history that the Elves took a Man for King. That and in Shaping of Middle-Earth it is stated that the souls of Half-Elves will be reincarnated just like Elves and one of the names specifically mentioned was Dior's.
When was rohan mentioned or does is just count as a normal man from gondor outside the bloodline?
You can also note that hobbits are considered adults at 30. If it reflect their metabolism and not just a cultural quirk, it's normal they also age slower than normal men.
How about how the one ring extended the lifespan of Gollum and Bilbo?
I watched this whole thing.
1:38 Who the hell is Stephen Tolkien?
Sir, have you happen to miss on Gollums lifespan?
I think the numenorean that live about 350y/o are not the commoner it's the lord of Andunie. We can see it on High King Elendil The Tall, he still can fight a lesser god(fallen maia) along side an elf king Gil Galad, at 322y/o.
Imagine living hundreds a years without running water, TV or most importantly internet.
Speaking of 'Choices' and 'Elladan and Elrohir,' I don't think that they had much of a choice. If I recall correctly, their longevity was utterly dependent on Elrond. By which, I mean- As long as Elrond remained in M.E., then they would remain Elven and immortal. However, should Elrond leave M.E.., then the twins would become mortal, would begin to age and would, one day, die. Of course, they were invited into Valinor with the remaining Sindar and Noldor as were left in M.E. in the 4th age. Had they gone, they would have remained among the Eldar. However, the twins (iirc) elected to remain in M.E. for a time.
13:48 it was a combination of magic declining and knowledge declining and environment changing - the same way that a human of the current era lives longer in good hygienic conditions with antibiotics and modern medicine, naturally if Gondor was strong then there was more food and less unsanitary conditions which means the body has to fight less to live and thus lives longer - on the other hand after Gondor and Arnor weaken due to famine, plagues and needing to change into a more militaristic style as well as losing some knowledge (akin to a slight fall to the Middle Ages) lead to a reduction of lifespan due to worse life conditions and stress - stress may be also quite an important factor since Numenoreans shared some tratis with Elves and Elves could actually fade or die of sadness, even if it was rare; and you mentioned how Hobbits may have lived longer due to a stress-free life.
I got say regarding the life spans of humans in Middle Earth is actually pretty similar to the decline of lifespans after the Flood in the Bible.
Where Men used to live commonly 900 years to the now barely 120 years and lower.
This is actually address in the book of Jubilees much more which few people read. One of the reasons explained why Man's lifespan further declined even if they were good righteous people was because evil committed by other people they were around affected them as well though indirectly. And you can argue few diverse genetic bloodlines contributed as a factor but nevertheless this is pretty similar to JRR Tolkien's writing a bit about the subject.
I doubt JRR Tolkien read the book of Jubilees since he was a Catholic so he probably heard of it but didn't check it out much but was probably influenced by the Flood story in some ways and decided to add his little thought process on how the decline went in his stories in some way.
The other hypothesis is poor translation and men lived 900 months (75 years).
3:39 Don't forget that Óin was 220 years old when he eaten by a certain Watcher.
That was not very nice of you.
Not too long. Great video.
nice
Quick question how old would beings like Gandalf get on average.
"Nazgul don't die, they just Fade!"
So before the Valar gave the half elven a choice to be mortal humans or immortal elves, what was the lifespan like for the half elven during The Silmarillion?
We're unsure. Before the Valar gave them a choice, Half-elves such as Dior, Elured and Elurin had already been killed. The general consensus is that Dior was a Man and would've lived a Man's lifespan, as is the case with other Half-elven offspring such as Galador and Eldarion.
I would have loved to see Numenor portrayed faithfully in ROP. So sad they didn't follow Tolkien's ideas.
As a wise Shad once said, BUT WHAT ABOUT DRAGONS? YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE DRAGONS!
Probably same as the eagles but still worth a mention, as they are also sentient.
And what's up with the Mearas? The lords of horses? Legend has it some could once talk.
You're right. My bad. Just for you - we're not sure how long Dragons could live for. Glaurung lived for several centuries, as did Smaug, so we know that much at least. As for Mearas, they're said to live as long as Men, so a fair bit longer than normal horses.
@@DarthGandalfYT Perfect, now I can go to bed knowing all is well in the world. Half a year from now you can re-release the video with this extra snippet and call it the extended edition. It worked for Jackson so who knows, aye? XD
But seriously, thanks.
Great video, Wizards were immortal I assume? Which is somewhat deceiving given they don't look young like the elves.
They were immortal, but they did "age" slowly. When Saruman arrived in Middle-earth, he mostly had black hair, but by the end it was almost entirely white.
If life going to tell me when i die, i want to be a numenorean and knowing that i could live for over 200 years is a gift.
Orcs could also have a prolonged life perhaps for a number of reasons, such of corruption, evil relics, other dark magic or sorcery, etc. I would like to know more, but like…. I can’t fault Tolkien for not creating an expansive enough universe, lol.
I'm not sure Ungoliant was just a giant spider. Wasn't she one of the maiar corrupted by Melkor? Didn't she and Shelob take spider forms to terrorize their victims?
Arwen could have lived longer but she just gave up and died as the love of her life was gone.
How come there was nothing on the dragons? They were sentient as well :(
If I recall correctly, the math for mortality is that any human past I think it was 105 has no more chance of dying when they hit 106 or any number higher than when they hit 105. So in theory a human who say hits 125 has the same chance of dying as a human hitting 105.
I guess technically that means we are potentially immortal, but that's some shady shit. Regardless most people when they think Immortality do not mean eternal life, they mean eternal youth. Being in your prime for eternity effectively.
Darth Gandalf but i thought the Stewards were of the House of Anarion thus Isildurs Brother cool video by the way
You're right. Peoples of Middle-earth has them descended from Elendil, just not through the royal line. My mistake.
@@DarthGandalfYT no worries mate its easily done considering all the lore love the channel by the way
One of the important things to consider regarding the decreasing lifespans of all the mortal races is that each generation is further from the creation event for their species. Eru created each race as paragons of their form, and each generation deteriorated from their initial perfection. This is also true of the immortal races: the earliest Elves and Ents were more powerful and had greater abilities and achievements than their descendants
What about Dragon's??
One of the problems I have with immortal elves interacting with mortal men is that immortals who have lived for thousands of years simply wouldn’t connect meaningfully with men who’d only been around for a few decades. A simple analogy would be an elderly person trying to connect with a toddler or young child as an equal. Sure, there can be some of connection, but the difference in experiences and wisdom are just so incredibly stark that the relationship is entirely imbalanced and not at all like that purported by Aragorn and Arwen.
This is very touched on, and represents a lot of some interpersonal conflict within Arwen & Aragorn, Bergen & Luthien, Tuor & Idril, and so on, and why their relationships stood out. Although it’s a different legendarium R.A. Salvatore also paints quite beautifully on various occasions connections between elves, humans and so on. There’s no absolute to the role age plays in a relationship, though there’s “norms” or “typical” situations that shouldn’t speak to what can be. Humans sometimes have dogs, cats, what have you for their whole life and though none live as long as they I’d argue those are meaningful connections that others will never understand…. Humans likely end up like dogs for elves. Just kidding, but hmmm…🤔
I would compare it more to a human loving their pets.
Dogs, cats, or bunnies generally live barely above a decade, but many people still love them like any other member of their family.
In this sense, a thousand years old elf can connect in a similar way to a human who lives for one hundred years.
The inevitability of your companion's early departure is something every individual has to deal with, and depending on their personality, everyone will handle it differently.
There would indeed be elves that wouldn't want associate with men because of this reason, but there would be also those that wouldn't mind and accept it as a natural way of things.
Aragorn has the wisdom of the past in him, so to speak, he is clearly beyond his age, but of course there is truth, in a sense, that elves and men do not connect very well, since they are from different races (species), thats why there are so few instances of inbreeding between them, and why is such a bid deal when it happens.
Another thing is that Aragorn is from the line of Earendil, which sons were twins Elros and Elrond, Aragorn a direct descedant of Elros and Arwen is the daughter of Elrond, we know the importance that bloodline plays in Tolkien's mythology, so Aragorn and Arwen are bound and connected to some extent, by default. The real impressive occurance was of Beren and Luthien, which had no relation between each other and was the first instance of relationship between the two races.
Lastly, I dont think your analogy applies, since there is a point of diminishing returns where you grow older and older but you change very little, the same way that we rapidly grew and change in just a few years early on.
@@davidento9611 Agreed, I think that even though Tolkien never mentions this, one of the reasons I think that Men would not belong and be allowed in Valinor is to spare the Elves of the suffering of seeing their friends dying so quickly, specially as they were going to become closer and surely there were going to be more mixed relationship, which would lead to a lot of sorrow for the Elves because they can never truly understand death. Thats why Valinor is for the Elves and Middle earth is for the Men.
Elves don't really much all that interesting with all their time though, they just kind of play harps and sing, drink some wine. Men have shorter lives but pack more in and are generally more interesting.
Ar-Pharazon should have felt death coming on when he sailed out of the sight of the western Shires of Numenor. But......oh well.
Something I've always wondered, would Aragorns Son not have had the bloodline of half elvern restored due to his Mother being an elf? I guess it doesn't work like that.
Nope. Galador, the first Prince of Dol Amroth, was half-elven, but still lived a pretty average lifespan for a Numenorean.
Arwen is also of the half-elven lineage, in fact the same lineage as Aragorn himself, except his distant ancestor who is Elrond's brother chose to be mortal. By staying in Middle Earth to be with Aragorn, she made her choice of mortality, so technically she was already a human, or at least wasn't an elf anymore, when she gave birth to Aragorn's children.
Isn't Shelob a magical entity that can change form into a woman? Is that cannon in the literature, or is that just the games Shadows of Mordor/Shadows of War???
It's just the games. Being accurate to the lore isn't really one of their strong points.
The elves interest me because of an ideology. That given a short lifespan, beings are driven to achieve great things. Given an eternal lifespan, beings would not create much of anything grand or meaningful, because they have eternity to achieve it.
There goes the plot to the Amazon show if her brother can be reborn why is she so mad he died
Because she still won't see him for thousands of years.
Okay... I only have one comment: what is that misconception that Arwen only lived as long as Aragorn!?! Tolkien himself has wrote that After Aragorn died Arwen stayed in the kingdom and watch her son grew and his sons grew up and after generations passed and there was no one to remember Aragorn's and Arwen's love, she left the kingdom and walked to the withered Lothlorien where she laid beneath the trees and took her own life - And there on the hills of Lothlorien shall dwell evergreen tomb of Arwen Undomiel.
Or is it just more romantic to think they died almost together and never apart???
According to Appendix A, she was changed right after Aragorn's death on March 1, and soon said farewell to Eldarion and her daughters and left for Lorien, dwelling there for the winter and dying just before spring, so about a year later, which was what I thought I remembered. Aragorn ruled for about 122 years, so she would have seen her children grow by then.
What about the Beornings?
All evidence points towards Beornings living a normal human lifespan. Beorn was dead by the time of the War of the Ring (70 years later), and his son was known as Grimbeorn the Old.
What about the Wizards?
Imagine not being born an elf. Like they are so favoured by eru and are better than any other race
What about Borlas, son of Beregond, which lived more than 220 years?
Haha, bloody Borlas. I chose not to include him due to the fact that Tolkien couldn't make his mind up about when The New Shadow was set.
As a millennial I feel that power of giving up comment 😂
Arwen lived longer than Aragorn. After he passed, she went to dwell in Lothlorien until she faded out. I don't believe Arwen was half-elven as both of her parents were elven. Elrond had chosen his elven heritage, so I'm pretty sure that means he was technically no longer half-elven. But either way, Arwen was not half-elven.
If I recall gladeryal is older than the moon
Always wondered if Tolkien planned for non-humans to be ageless but later changed his mind. Otherwise, "Nine for mortal men, doomed to die," makes no sense. Unless dwarves have a different afterlife.
Tolkien's dwarwes themselves believe that their spirits are immortal and go to Valinor after bodily death as well, but dwarf spirits dwell in a separate place in Halls of Mandos, where Aule himself takes care of them. They also believe that after end of the world, all of the dwarwes are reincarnated to join Aule is crafting of a new world.
what about dragons?
A power every millennial wishes he had . brilliant
The stewards, according to HoME, were actually descendants from Anárion
Hey Elrond remember your old human school friend who died 10,000 years ago?
Imrazor confuses the hell out of me, why is a man born after both lines of kings ended called "the numenorean" and in aduniac no less
It seems Adunaic continued in Dol Amroth to a certain extent given that Imrahil is an Adunaic name as well. He might be "the Numenorean" because he embodied Numenorean traits more than his peers.
The great eagles are, after all, the messengers of Manwe. So it stands to reason they originate in the undying lands.
Elves immortality is sucked, I mean you get to live forever but everything seems to be less important and you can witness a lot of painful stuff, Imagine we see everyone you love and care die one by one after 1k years war with Darkness
But bear in mind they don't truly die like we do, at least, unless the world is destroyed. The Elves assert that men and elf face the same future of demise with no guarantee of return, but so long as Arda exists they can be reborn and live in Valinor after dying.
The fate of the elves is tied to the fate of Arda, and they cannot escape that fate.
but they have an"easy2 way to escpae,alaValinor,also when they died they just end up in Mandos all to be returned in a phsycial phorm and lbing in thebelssing undying lands, while the other races have no chanche to escape ,lie the secondobor mne,thay are doomed to die,and have no chanche of blessing place protected by the valar like elves
Yeah, lifespan doesn't really count for the nazgul. Since they're undead it could be argued that, even though they are 4000+ years old, their lifespan ended long ago.
There were only nine Ringwraiths,all formerly men and kings. Their fate was tied to that of the One ring, and when it was unmade the surviving eight perished. The ninth was destroyed by Eowyn of Rohan at the battle of the Pellenor fields before Minas Tirith during the war of the Ring.
2:30 wait, Arwen is dead?
Orcs should live longer if shaodw of war is to be true. The bow of morgoth claimed that he served during the first dark lords time.
U didn’t say anything about the skin changer men or the man that didn’t disappear when he put on frodos ring, 25 minutes isn’t long
Skinchangers (aka Beornings) seem to have the lifespan of an average Man. We know this because Beorn was dead by the time of the War of the Ring (70 years later), and his son was known as Grimbeorn the Old. Tom Bombadil is seemingly immortal.
Ahh to be an elf....
Didn't Faramir reach 120
Must be nice.
Durin the deathless lived over 4,000 years so to correct you there
new research shows we can make it to 120 to 150 years old...
Where if aman people were mortal ?
It's clear that author of the video is not familiar with the lifespan recorded in the Genesis.
“…a power any millennial wishes they had…”
Dang.
That was very good. But pronouncing Shelob as 'shell-ubb'? You're alone in the world on that one mate!
I think my "Shelob" pronunciation changes every single video.
@@DarthGandalfYT Go for 'She-slob'. It would sum up that critter perfectly!
@@cerberus6654 I'd like to think the e is silent so Shlob it is for me.
@@romaliop Again, you're alone in the world on that! Cheers.
Who the heck even are all these tribes of men?
What is your connection to geographic science? Sometimes you say stuff that sounds like someone with a good knowledge of geographical science. I'm a geography teacher from Amsterdam, hence I know.
I've always been a big fan of science and geography, but alas I have no qualifications in either field.
Hobbits would count pints of ale, not cases of beer.