Here's an anecdote that somewhat backs up your theory. Disney XD came out with Black Panther's Quest just after the release of the film. I remember hearing about it and thought it would be some light, fun entertainment. When the first episode came out (you can legit watch it here: ruclips.net/video/0B9JOAX99pc/видео.html), Ms. Marvel had as much dialog as Black Panther, certainly more than any other Avenger, and she was at the front of the team during the big fight scene in the first 5 minutes. I remember thinking "Why is this person here? Why is she getting so much attention in a Black Panther cartoon? Where's the Hulk? Why is Ms Marvel doing so much of the talking and in the same timeframe you have nothing from either Capt. America or Black Widow? What is this?" In other words, Ms Marvel was being shoved to the front and treated as a co-leader of the Avengers when - and here's the key - her canon and her powers weren't established enough to earn that spot. That's the difference. She didn't earn her place at the table, and it just comes off as forced and fake. Just my opinion.
Ms Marvel’s origin: Inhuman who is/was a fangirl of Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers. She’s like Amadeus Cho to Hulk, a side character elevated to main character. Real page turner there. Better idea: Tied to Secret Invasion, Kamala would be a teen spy for the Skrulls with 1 Super Skrull ability (Mr Fantastic’s power), who defies her orders and inspired by original Captain Marvel/Mar-Vell, who defied the Supreme Intelligence to side with Earth/Humans, she becomes an ally of the F4/Future Foundation. Boom, easy peezy retcon.
She even could be some sort of Skrull Space Muslim, finding the Earth religion a perfect analogue to her own. So many small tweaks they missed out on incorporating
Shanoske i used to read Fantastic Four so being familiar with the source material helps alot. Its really similar to how Johnny fell in love with a Skrull, Lyja, who was impersonating Alicia Masters.
I really liked Kamala in that very first arc. I liked her family dynamic and her supporting cast. Like you said, very much like old school Spider-man. But then she quickly devolved into being a mouthpiece for the writer's strawman arguments against "toxic fandom" and she just became insufferable. That clip you showed of the game is exhibit A. My eyes rolled into the back of my head.
Well, Robin was kind of dated by the 70s & 80s (the costume was no help). It took Dick Grayson to become Nightwing, and his successors Jason Todd and Tim Drake to make Robin cool. With Kamala Khan, it's aggressive idea-by-committee.
@@Madbandit77 Damian Wayne made Robin cool not Tim or Jason. Damian Wayne and Red Hood are the cool kids of the bat family. They are the ones who kids these days want to be and know. Tim is a dated nineties relic that no casuals know and he is the least cool of all the Batkids including Harper and Duke.
To some extent, I felt Ms Marvel suffered from the same problem as DC's New Age of Heroes characters. (Although I much preferred the latter!) DC and Marvel used to understand that when you want to launch a new character, you give them a guest spot in someone else's book. If they're well received, you make them a recurring character. Then, if they're popular, fans will call out for a solo title. If they're not, they can be retired without creating any major ripples. Instead, DC and Marvel just threw these characters out there in their own books and practically demanded that people like them. To my mind, Damage and Silencer in particular, could have been break out characters if fans had been allowed to warm to them through appearances in other books, over time. How did the industry forget that fans are reluctant to spend money on books featuring characters they don't know? Maybe it's another consequence of having replaced all the wise old heads with new, inexperienced "talent," but the industry appears to have forgotten the basics of how its own market operates.
Actually, the Silencer was the most successful of the new DC heroes at the time (Richard Meyer liked her), and I wouldn't be surprised if the character came back. But you're right on establishing new characters in their own books, and the Silencer is a rare exception.
@@Madbandit77 Oh, I think everyone who read Silencer loved it. The trouble is, not enough people did read it. That's the tragedy. Personally, I preferred Damage, but I liked Silencer as well, and I thought the Terrifics was a lot of fun (which was a big surprise because I wasn't previously a fan of any of the characters in that book!)
Two of the best marvel titles - Daredevil and Immortal Hulk - have one very important thing in common. Consistent creative teams that are telling good stories within a larger story arc that is being told simultaneously. The issue with Kamala Khan is the same issue that Marvel has with a lot of their characters - creative teams on a revolving door and overuse of cross over events. In that shuffle, the core of a character gets lost and we end up with flat, uninteresting characters exactly like the version of Ms. Marvel that's presented in the new Avengers game. A lot of the "problems" in comics could be corrected if the industry returned to a consistent creative team model instead of this six-issue-expiration-date on creative teams and constant title cancelations and reboots that we see now.
I have a lot to about Kamala Khan. I'll be upfront; I'm NOT white. I'm indian but I have plenty of friends who are Muslim and Indian;so consider this a unique perspective. Kamala Khan concept wise COULD have worked. The best comparison I can make to her is Virgil Hawkin/ Izuku Midoriya from Static Shock and My Hero Academia respectively. Virgil being a non-white character and Midoriya being a massive fanboy of All Might, much like Kamala is of Carol Danvers. The DIFFERENCE is that the writers of Kamala post Wilson have instead chosen to focus on developing the superficial elements about her. As Literature Devil put it in his great video "Didn't I mention she was Muslim?"(ruclips.net/video/4JSyPIETzyo/видео.html) very much reinforces what Kamala Khan is. A bad stereotype. And that isn't to say you cannot have faith in superheroes represented well. Matt Murdock, Ben Grimm and Kitty Pryde are great examples being Catholic and Jewish respectively. You can have faith play a role of being a superhero. It just cannot be overly preachy. But my primary beef with Kamala Khan is two-fold. One is that as a legacy hero; she doesn't really earn her position. Contrast this with Stephanie Brown Batgirl or even Miles Morales in the Spider-verse movie. Both characters needed to earn the respect and prove why they were worthy of holding the mantle. Kamala could have been like this to where Carol was skepticial about her holding the mantle and how Kamala Khan proves through her actions that she does deserve the title of Ms. Marvel. But from what I gather, she doesn't actually earn the position. The second problem I have with Kamala is as you say, people forcing others to like her. I'm not white and heck, even though I'm not Muslim; I have plenty of friends who are. They tell me they do not like Kamala because there are those that want to force them to like her. And I'm sorry; that does not work. You CANNOT shame others into liking what you like. It's like going to a restaurant and having the chef/ owner force you to eat something. Good characters/ food will naturally be tantalizing if you put in the hard work/ effort and are open to feedback. Overall, I do like the concept of Kamala Khan, but she has been a victim to the dogmatic one sided nature of Marvel comics and them trying to make her the best thing WITHOUT putting any effort into her being likable and having to earn her position.
I agree on almost all your points. But I still support Kamala Khan, even if I dropped the book after the first relaunch. Because there just isn't anyone else who I can say, Muslim superhero right now. Who? Dust? The Batman of France? No, if this is all Muslims get, then I don't care. Something is better than nothing. And she's Pakistani. I'll always side with her, just for how little I've ever seen Pakistan represented positively in almost any other media.
What bothers me about this character is that she self righteous and arrogant. She’s constantly getting praised and admired by everyone. I tried giving her a chance but she just felt flat. I’m worried how she will be implemented in the Avengers game.
I consider my self a long time comic book reader (I read my first when I was around 6 years old amd now Im 43) and I can tell you that I dont know quotes from comics. Well, yes, the classic "lets face it tiger, etc" or the Green Lantern thing, but thats all, Im afraid. Maybe im weird...
I enjoyed her volume 1 and bought it for my friend’s daughter and she ended up loving it. I don’t expect many older male readers to like this book though.
As a Muslim, the comic was groundbreaking. Grant Morrison's "Vinamarama" was the first book that spoke to my experience in my lifetime, but this was a pop extension of that. Her family life, her need to hide her identity from her conservative family, was a great update on Peter Parker. She was a nerdy fangirl, which was fun, and she was a very bubbly and enthusiastic character, which I found entertaining. For a time. I was turned off by the comic due to the very decompressed pace (obviously to pad a story and sell more issues) and the constant reboots. I haven't read the issues later when she was pushed into Avengers, but that's because all Marvel and DC comics are wearing thin with me. It's all reboots and re-mixes of familiar characters to push some marketing that has nothing to do with comics. I agree with you on this. Kamala Khan was forced down the fans throats, but there were many fans of her that have nothing to do with her comics (which is the future of all IPs in this business, I think). The market isn't for comics, which I get is your focus, but she was made to be bigger than comics, like or not. But I don't care, because Kamala Khan has allowed all of us to know and discuss things and issues that we have never done before. Particularly, the arc where they discuss Partition, the division of India into Pakistan and Bangledesh, a tragic event that my father experienced personally, was worth all the over-exposure of this character alone. This was a huge historical event that almost no one has heard of, and this book put a focus on it even among older people of the sub-continent who had never read a comic in their lives, the pages were being shared by email and on Facebook by people my father and mother's age. Did it sell the comic? Hell no. But it was a good thing for the comic world, for the Pakistani world, for the American fans, on a whole. And to be honest Perch, I love your channel, but this very rant plays into the idea OG fans will reject this new character based on her background. Many people say her powers are boring, her character is mediocre, and they're all right, but they, and you, miss the point. I get she's been pushed down our throats and I agree that she isn't the best, but the fact that you relate to the kid who acts like a jerk, saying he represents the average comic fan (I don't relate to him, I relate to her, which might be the point of what I'm saying), while that scene is an over-exaggeration, like all superhero melodrama is, I have experienced exactly that kind of situation, being talked down to, and I've seen this happen a lot when it is a young girl and especially if it is a person of color. The fact this irks you is acceptable, but I see a lot of truth in it, even if it is over the top soap opera dialogue. I know you are going to say that you were only discussing how the industry, the fans of comics themselves reacted to it and her forcibly increased profile in the universe of comics, and as a fan of comics for almost 30 years, I see all your points. But I think you're reaction is an over-reaction, Kamala Khan is a small part of the Marvel universe, and if she is being artificially being pushed to the top, I personally, have no problem with that. I don't buy the comics, and no one else has to either. And if her inclusion in comics causes people to stop buying the comic, well, I have no problem with that either. Honestly, a lot of those books were never going to be bought no matter which version of Captain Marvel or Spider-Man you put into the book.
All the things you mentioned were excellent, and when Kamala was written solidly, it WAS refreshing. I just felt the comic got really stale really fast. I also think it's unfair to the character, but she's come to represent the things that many fans hate about contemporary Marvel. Plenty of other characters have been totems for Marvel's politics, but most of them have a long publication history that insulates them from backlash. I think Marvel missed a great opportunity to build a solid character for a new generation of readers, but they botched. We never really got to know her as a real flesh and blood character.
@The Credible Hulk In regards to the first 12 issue run, "written well" is a subjective bar for each person. Her powers are boring, but her actual personality is true. Kamala staring at the bacon and commenting on how good it smells? On point. Her fan-fic, slash-fic craze, based on reality, we all know girls like that. Written well is a metric that has different meanings. I think she was fine, I liked her geeking out with Wolverine. But your mileage may vary.
@The Credible Hulk My cousin loves him, but I've never been a big Green lantern fan except for Geoff John's run up until and after Darkest Night. But again, this is my point, until another Muslim hero gets this kind of attention, I have a moral obligation to push Kamala Khan so people know she exists. And there is a lot I actually like about her character, and a lot I don't like. Having her in the limelight, in my own experience, has given me opportunities to talk about my people (Muslims, Pakistanis, Comic Book fans) with people who have no understanding of this world, until now. Simon Baz might be a better character, but Kamala Khan is a better opportunity for Muslims. Not only to show how normal we are, but also to show how we differ from her. And that only begins if people are talking about it, like y'all are.
@The Credible Hulk never cared for Simon Baz until he teamed up with Jessica Cruz and became part of the Justice League run. My issue with his original title as a Muslim myself is that it felt too post 911 (he was wrongly suspected of terrorism, had the authorities and even the League after him), it felt they were too hard to make him relevant and then there's the whole him trying to carjack a car before he got the ring, it was like the comic was saying "hey look we got a superhero for you Muslims and he used to be a criminal" and I'm like "thanks but no thanks" that's why I preferred Kamala Khan she felt like a more relatable character.
Ms. Marvel is essentially another in a long line of females taking the same name to occupy a role. Creatively bankrupt, she’s a pastiche of Peter Parker & Mr Fantastic (high school student/New Yorker and a stretchy person), but worse: she’s everywhere, all the time. Inhumans were a hardsell back when Marvel used them outside of the Fantastic Four, even less appealing as some sort of analogue for mutants.
It seemed like Marvel, the media sites, and a few “fans” were always to guilt into liking her character and buying her comic. Which ended up only pushed me further away from comics entirely. Why couldn’t I just not like her?
I and friends all thought she was insufferably annoying in that game. She fangirls about the most basic shit and says it out loud. She even says "I'm literally freaking out" after finding Iron Man's guitar. Who the hell gives a shit about Iron Man's guitar? The game is full of stupid moments like this.
I question how she would know what Captain America said in order to be able to quote him? She wasn’t there when he said it, and I highly doubt that something like that would be common knowledge or reported on somewhere.
I think there is a real immaturity in the writing that came in the last few years. It didn't help that the kind of people who decided that Ms. Marvel was The Superhero were...just really obnoxious about it. Which I think is kind of what you're saying, but they took the relatively complicated political things Wilson was putting into the comic, and turned it into "in your face" just like the Bleeding Cool articles did.
I think that sometime in the early 2000's, comic fans developed a distaste for the 'aw shucks', and 'gee wilikers' sidekick type characters. For me, Kamala Khan started off as a promising character, but they quickly started making her books too silly and too lighthearted. I never felt as though the character ever faced any real danger or villains. Contrast that with characters like Robin(Batman), Kitty Pryde (X-Men), and even Jubilee (X-Men), who faced real and credible threats as barely teenagers. These threats helped lead to the characters growth. Kamala Khan never had that and so her character remains a stagnant trope.
I've read the comic since it came out. My kid and I love to read about her adventures. She writes fan fiction, is a gamer, and has a fun perspective on the Marvel Universe. I have never understood the push back. If she is not for you, don't read her books. I don't read Punisher or Batman and can refrain from trash talk.
Loren Fleming its somewhat built into the fandom. For yrs ive loathed Impossible Man and for a lonnnng time i hated the over abundance of Deadpool at Marvel. He can be funny under a good writer, but like anything, seeing him on so many teams and just crammed into books, its grating. Like this game: its essentially a giant promo for Ms Marvel on Disney+.
All the marketing would ever say about Kamala Khan was that she was a Muslim. I didn't even know what her powers were until I started watching some of the comic book review channels. The drawings of her always just show her with really big hands.
Since Marvel and DC have very very popular characters when introducing a new character it needs to have the best story and the best art of the month first issue must be a must have if you don’t do that then you’ve already failed
When I was in Washington DC last summer we visited American History Smithsonian and they unexpectedly had an exhibit on superheroes where they had some comics in a case and there was a Kamala khan Ms Marvel #1 next to a bunch of classic issues and first appearances. It puts things into perspective beyond a small internet troll bubble. That clip was kinda lame lol but the character has a large audience.
DC did the exact same thing with Batwoman. I'll never forget the media buzz and interviews with Dan Didio about her. Every other word was either lesbian or gay in descriptions of her. Frankly, I want to know more about the character than her sexuality, religion or skin color. It would be like if Superman was introduced for the 1st time and when somebody asked about powers or personality and was told he was a white, straight, protestant male from another planet and when you ask for more details, you get "well, did I mention he's white and protestant? He's also a straight man?" When you ask about why should you care to spend money on his book: "He's from the mid west so you can relate to him." That's what we got from Marvel and DC execs and media when it came to Ms. Marvel and Batwoman and frankly fans don't care for having characters being pushed on them (this is the future of the Marvel Universe b/c we think she's cool), being talked down to or being lectured to about characters or stories. More or less Ms. Marvel and Batwoman were given the Poochie* treatment (*look it up, it's from The Simpsons).
For me, i guess it was the overexposure, and you must like her-attitude, that made me say no. Same with Captain Marvel as the new flagship. Her origin and faith never really mattered to me. I remember finding Dust in one of the young x-team (was it Hellions?) interesting. The obsessive nerd and fan-girling was a bit annoying, i can agree on that. Mostly because the fans i have come to know, never really behaved like that. But it might be more common with girls. What do i know? -But never the big tick-off
Having not read it. I can only things like this . 1 We had a Ms Marvel, now Capt. MARVEL 2 Her powers as not very exciting, its like a Mr Fantastic, Elongated man ,Plastic Man, and a couple others. 3 i think she was over hyped for those powers, then an Avenger!!! At 14? 4 lastly it came in the time that marvel was pushing for female heroes , some that had just arrived like Squirel Girl, American Chavez. It became so evident that girl talk and who was lgbtq then action scories Those are things i picked up on, and i am way to hold to spend more money on Heroes that talk more then any other. My comic shop only sold 3 of her books a month ( to be fair american chavez and capt marvel were not doing better in his store)
Hmmm. My thoughts in response: 1) I liked Ms. Marvel, but she was initially nothing but a gender-flipped Captain Marvel (the Kree guy that died of cancer, that is) with a really ham-handed "I'm a feminist" message driving her characterization. She got a little better in her "black swimsuit costume" days and then in the X-Men and her tensions with Rogue de-powering her. What she's become I don't know enough about to comment. There's certainly room for someone else to use the name. 2) I really like "stretchy" heroes, and wish comic creators would do more with them. Their powers sets (especially with some shapeshifting tossed in) are visually interesting and remarkably versatile and deserve better than the ever-tedious Mr. Fantastic or the comedic spin the DC stretchers invariably get stuck with. Even Ralph was a goof, and Plaz has always been a joker - or a joke. So, no, no reason her power can't be exciting, particularly not to me. 3) How many stretchers with shapeshifting does the Avengers roster have, again? I don't recall the Super-Skrull on the roster, and beyond that how many stretchers are there in Marvel period? This isn't DC where even Jimmy Olsen gets those powers now and then. Recruiting a useful power set for a team doesn't seem out of line to me, and despite all the mystique the Avengers have never been very exclusive. There roster over the years has included people like the Two-Gun Kid, Star Fox (must resist barrel roll joke...) and the Swordsman. It's a really low bar to get in. Almost as low as the Defenders, who I'm pretty sure had a pizza delivery guy on the team one issue. She was 16 when introduced, which is realistically still way too young to be a superhero - but her age has factored in to a lot of the earlier stories (the only ones i've read) and Peter Parker wasn't any older when he got bit, nor were any of the legacy sidekicks like Bucky and Robin. Perch is right, the early stuff felt like a bit like early Spiderman. That said, she was certainly overhyped. I've only read the first trade's worth of her (which was a bestseller for Marvel, and may explain why she got so much page time so fast) and I understand it's gone downhill, but her early days were fine. I'd even go as far as to say some of it was downright innovative. A shame if they've wrecked the character with all these terrible event books and pushing the hype. She had potential.
You are absolutely correct Mr Perch. I have never heard her religion or ethnecity given as reason for disliking the character. The "Greatest, Bestest, Bravest Fangirl done good EVER" is usually number one. Her costume gets brought up a bit but I think that's when someone already doesn't like her. The detention centre in Civil War 2 and lack of repercussions/consequences of her actions she faces in general is also a big one. Her hanging out with adult heroes(poker and beer night changing because of the underage muslim?!?) who constantly validate her has been coming up more too. Of course Bleeding Cool pushed for constraversy - They NEED to be right that every fan is a bigot(even non-American non-anglo ones like me). For me personally? I hate the "Writes fanfiction about (in her universe) real people, some of whom she's met and 'ships' them" thing. I am NOT the target audience. I did give it to someone who was...I bought my Daughter the first trade when it came out and she didn't like her powers or costume and thought everyone brags too much(she said that about EVERY Marvel "Girl" book I bought her though). She didn't hate it, just didn't want another one.
I believe you are describing the trope Flanderization, it’s when a quirk becomes exaggerated to the point where that’s all there is to a character. What you’re saying is that is what’s happening to Kamala Khan, Marvel took the trait of her being a fangirl and overdid it to a point where she’s a socially inept nerd.
How is anyone supposed to relate to a comic book character that's just a regular person and a superhero at the same time, there's nothing marvelous about a regular joe
Once upon a time there was a online conflict called gamergate it was an outgrowth of the increased mainstreamification with it greater demographic Alteration of fandom. Where they were a vehicle for major studios putting things out as well as trying to chase different demographics and markets. alongside this is in fact a long-term attempt to make fandom much more female friendly. with yes re-existing issues of sexism. With the sudden influx of this social capital there some factions happily hook their train up either for validation advancement but especially social power. This all comes to a head through three major actions you probably heard names like Zoe Quinn or Anita sharpesian needless to say fandom isn't just one thing stuff that happens in the game sphere creates an attitude because there are members who share multiple hobbies but especially with comics people wanted to act like they were social activists and one way they did that was by creating the bunch of traits that they knew what piss people off and then attack a group that they knew had less social capital. so in order to combat what was perceived as negative feelings for Muslims and girls with interest in geeky hobbies and or science fiction they created the polemic fangirl especially to the counter the nasty statements against then popular brown hair girls such as Bella swan and katniss everdeen this was addressing a very real issue much as was pointed out in the book Lovecraft country that we had genre fiction that had on its basis racist assumptions whether that was Tarzan John Carter of Mars and yes Lovecraft. but much like the creation of Miles Morales and several other characters you couldn't help but feel, much as you noted with this latest version, that the point of the character wasn't to be a character to celebrate and build a relationship with audience but to brow beat the audience. This is especially with fangirl interests being lionized as a social good even when in many waysjust as venal Petty and low-key messed up. Something that nobody would own up to until it was socially advantaged to do so as an example people constantly pointing out how mean male nerds are to female or anything that's associated with female or progressive or gay fashions. Until suddenly they want to beat on those people then suddenly they can acknowledge the exact same traits those accused bogpts with people were mad about as existing even flawed It's hilarious because I can point to things like people flipping out about the last Jedi and how people jump the gun on a character like admiral holdo. But then turn around and prosecute the in their name reylo fandom because they're all fighting against patriarchy. In short it's very clear when someone makes a character and they're meant to be a learning lesson for the audience. And very deliberately from conception that was the point of Miles Morales and Kamala Khan. The only positive thing you could say at least with KK is that she was deliberately meant to be empathetic to that kind of girl. the problem is much like you said when they start saying she was the future it very much came with an implicit you guys are the past and you guys sucked until we came here It's with this attitude that even though I don't have a problem reading the first three or so of her trade there is a lot of fangirlism that bothers me. from the fact that she's associated with the push of the inhumans which was very much more mandated by the fox marvel Disney pissing match. To the fact that she has Loki guest star along with agents of shield thus meaning that she was very much part of the thin media tie in and fan gasm of pushing Loki which also fed into the idea of Loki as the best queer boyfriend. and they made it clear that this was going to be the future. basically they were going to be as Petty as they always were just aiming towards fangirl it's as opposed to males preference and then they were going to tell us how we were monsters for not going along with it. And again those first three trades pretty well written and okay ish. They're all about character. which makes them kind of interesting but that doesn't change the fact that you can easily see what they're trying to do with having literal villain called the inventor who's also Thomas Edison who's all about demoralizing and exploiting the younger generation who all turn out to be super geniuses anyway All this and a wolverine cameo add in like you noted that people who were not about comics couldn't shut up about praising her as the future of comics as if everything was crap until she showed up and it just hurt a lot. especially as you noted it was all this other mess going on but she was part of the initiative of streamlining marvel towards the media Disney push. and very deliberately made in order to push out everybody who would come before even down to the likes of the audience to push for a different audience who they said was a more moral audience
Civil War 2 is the only bit I've read of her, it's cemented both Ms and Captain Marvel as villains to me. From the civil war 2 comics, I see her as an ugly inverse of Mr Fantastic.
Pretty much what others have said before: Kamala has/had potential, her concept is solid and has been done elsewhere so it can work, her early series wasn't bad but come Civil War II things started going downhill for her sadly especially with politics becoming all the more obvious of a driving force. What didn't also help was overexposure and the "You must love her or else!" Mentality behind her marketing and some fans as well being directly tied into two other franchises with the same problem: Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel and the Inhumans being made into knock-off X-Men. Since Disney got the rights to X-Men and shelves the Inhumans after the damage done to them I can see why they're quiet on Kamala being one. You also got a point on her surface traits being over exaggerated by other writers most specifically her being a Muslim and a Fangirl, with the rest kind of varying. One example is Waid's version of her is known for being so upset with how the Avengers wouldn't personally rebuild buildings destroyed in battle she left to form the Champions. First issue of her new series by Ahmed had her accidentally destroy a store and came off bratty to the justifiably angry owner. Some will see it as writers not doing their research which sadly happens quite a bit or worst case the character seen as a hypocrite to some especially if they're a fairly new characters with other factors going against them. One thing that personally bothers me about her is how Marvel and certain media praise her as their "best thing since Spider-Man" when she hasn't really done much to earn that title in terms of personal accomplishments. She's made from a similar mold as Peter and there's nothing wrong with doing that kind of "ordinary kid becomes a superhero" with a different cultural twist to it but it felt like they handled Kamala (and other modern hyped, young characters) with kid gloves compared to their predecessors. I don't think she should see all her loved ones murdered in front of her but maybe at least building a rogues gallery that challenges her more other than simply "fascism" and "Islamaphobia" or something. Then again, this could be because her writers are afraid of getting called "bigots" if something bad happens to her even if it's something white guys routinely deal with I.e. recent Star Wars comic had Boba Fett kill a black woman, just like he killed so many others before, and suddenly SWHatesWomen is a trending tag. Kamala's books also seem more geared to a YA for nerd girls and maybe younger like other books out there like Squirrel Girl so I can see that as a rift between her series and the usual comic fanbase that tends to be teen boys and men. Also, no qualms about the costume but I get how stretchy powers can be a little weird for some to get over or have a character be fun and creative with it. Also, that scene with the "real fans" bullies was eye roll worthy. I'm not denying fan elitism exists and I've seen it first hand from people of all walks of life. However, here it feels like it plays into the narrative of "fanboys are bigots who hate sharing their hobbies with girls/PoC/LGBT+" and of course, if you don't like characters like Kamala for any reason you're just like them. There's also how a lot of comic fans tend to just be super awkward, or even autistic, and just get carried away talking about their hobby while unintentionally coming off rude. I'll admit I've been there trying to talk to someone who acted like an authority on the comics when they didn't seem to ever read them and seemed to just watch the shows (while ironically talking down about others who watch superhero shows and don't read the books). Not to mention, the concern of hobbies being re-tooled to be more "inclusive" for people who never cared about them before while alienating the older fanbase.
Being a comic reader who also happens to be Muslim, I like Kamala Khan, she's just a victim of overexposure by Marvel. Most of the Muslim superheroes by the big two felt more like token characters than characters for me personally. X-Men's Dust didn't come across as a natural character too me, it felt like Marvel was going "here's a Muslim superhero for you" and I'm like "okay, cool but did she have to wear a naqib? Not all Muslim women cover themselves you know" Then came Simon Baz from DC for their Green Lantern line, DC basically said "you Muslims will relate to this one, he's down on his luck due to prejudice and forced to a life of crime and when he gets his powers, he's wrongly suspected of terrorism because we live in a society, a Post 911 society". And I'm like "oh goodie, a Muslim superhero with a post 911 background, how appealing.. " Plus, there were the jerks who were always smug about how they think Muslims should never be portrayed as heroes because it's "unrealistic", whatever the hell that means. The best Muslim comic character from the big two was Faiza Hussein from Captain Britain and MI13. She felt like a proper character, her background didn't involve 911 or being oppressed by extremists and the M13 series was great. Unfortunately, even though it sold well among UK comic readers, it didn't sell enough in the main US comic market despite being the only good thing to come out of Secret Invasion (Dark Avengers isn't that good) Kamala felt relatable, she was a comic fan but had to struggle balancing her upbringing with her own desires. There was a charm to the original 18 issue run and the sales showed, it was stable around the 40k range, which in the current climate is decent for a new character and the trades of her early run sold really well (and the trade and graphic novel market is the most profitable part of the comic industry) and the first volume of the trade sold so well, it remained in the top 100 best selling graphic novels charts for around 4-5 years. There's a reason why Marvel started pushing her other than diversity points. But that's where the problem started, as soon as her fanbase started having a healthy number Marvel decided to push the character even more, making her an Avenger, having her lead her own team. They put so much hype around the character's early success in a short amount of of time, it overexposed her, which led to a backlash against the character, a lot it I feel was overexaggerate.
Gotta be 100% honest in only going on surface level stuff: her character design looks lame, not interested in her power set, and younger heroes need to be naturally integrated into something I'm loyal to, like Young X-Men/New X-Men/X-Men Academy was firmly in the X-Men world which I was already addicted to.
These faked scenarios do not help the character's likability. The writers of Marvel continue to chase after people that don't read comics and have been hurt by perceived aggression (micro or other). It's not well thought out and it comes off as condescending and insulting to regular readers who were fine with different races of characters until it got political and polarizing.
I wasn't excited for Ms. Marvel but, you know some people were. If the writing is good in any comic I'll read it. Maybe five great titles at Marvel right now, though 🤷
How was she forced down our throats? You don't buy the freaking book. It's that simple. I hate this BS "Oh it's such an agenda and just trying to SJW us!" Just don't buy it then. No one says 'They're forcing Iron man down our throats". Guess why?
@@horizonbrave1533 They continue to publish her book despite selling badly. Continue to push her and sjw team she is on despite it already being cancelled. They are rehashing Civil War again with them being center piece. Again pushing her. Putting her in this game. Putting her in MCU when people rather have other characters that aren't in MCU in first. People like iron man that is difference.
@@SuperMutant2099 Lol, what? How many low selling books are still rehashed and dragged all over comics? Last I checked nobody whines and cries about Silver Surfer constantly being pumped out. There's this laughable hivemind mentality to be told to hate XYZ book on youtube. People go on youtube, see these rants and nonsensical angry men who can't stand this "woke" culture and just parrot what they hear. It's just repeating what you hear others bitch about. The whining and stamping of feet comes across the loudest and that's what's echo'd.
This scene of Ms. Marvel getting treated as a fake fan girl, may be a reaction on the writer's part to the criticism by people such as Richard Meyer who say that some creators and editors are just fake geek girls/fan girls.
Man, that clip was annoying. Partially for using an incredibly tired bully trope, but also for pairing it with a no-true-Avengers-fan fallacy. It's weird to me that they want to make these fanboy/fangirl characters (though I can't think of an example of a fanboy character) as an ostensible way, as you suggest, to create a character for the actual fans to relate to. The fans are already fond of the existing characters who don't have being a fanperson as one of their characteristics. So, that's clearly not a characteristic fans need to be involved in a character. I guess with Ms. Marvel they figured appealing to the readers' narcissism would be one more tool they could use to assure her popularity.
I saw playthrough of the new Avengers game I thought Kamala aka Ms marvel was good. And the game looks good. I read Ms marvel 2016 comic on online . I thought it was good .
I and friends all thought she was insufferably annoying in that game. She fangirls about the most basic shit and says it out loud. She even says "I'm literally freaking out" after finding Iron Man's guitar. Who the hell gives a shit about Iron Man's guitar? The game is full of stupid moments like this
Ms. Marvel started out strong in the first part of her story. She seemed likable, but inexperienced. She honestly felt like a Peter Parker for a new generation. However, after Secret Wars, everything went to hell. Marvel kept pushing her into everything and her writer, G Willow Wilson, was more interested in pushing her own personal politics than writing a good story. I do not mind Kamala being a more political active character. I think it can work out really well (Green Arrow is a great example of this). However, that came before everything else and she has suffered as a result. What is her rogues gallery...does she even actually have one? No, she does not. It is hard to tell how much she has grown as a superhero when she rarely fights bad guys in colorful spandex. Her character has not gone through much either. Civil War 2 could have been a great chance for some character growth, but that was squandered too. Honestly, even the new writer for Kamala has not done much with her in developing her character or her appeal as a superhero. If I was her writer, I would dial back some of the politics, not stop it, but just dial it back a little. I would focus on her fighting super villains, creating a rogues gallery for her. While she has political issues and average teenage crap she has to deal with in her civilian life. Think of her as a combo between Green Arrow and Spider-Man. Oh, and redesign her outfit. I have not been a fan of either of her costumes.
I always saw her as a “missed opportunity” perfect member of a new junior F4 team, while the OG team was sidelined by Marvel editorial. Kamala Khan/Ms Marvel Lyra/She-Hulk Inferno of the NuHumans/Inhumans & either Valeria or Franklin Richards, or even Miles Morales, or a revolving membership whatever.
@@manueldanas6255 Innitially the only problem washat she was a bit of a "brownwash character", but that was solved well and justified by her being a fangirl, and then the normal Disneyfied Lost Marbles production and promotion values kicked in....
@Professeur Râleur Kamala being Muslim is a big part of her character. It is like Superman being an alien or Batman being rich. They would not feel right without that.
I got all mad after watching this lol and thought of all these things I wanted to say but then I cooled down and realized this video just wasn't for me lol keep it pushin'
Two of my favorite characters in Marvel are Kitty Pryde and Kurt Wagner. I dont care about a characters religion if they're good characters. My problems with Kamala has nothing to with religion but horrible creative decisions lol. She's not the first muslim superhero in Marvel as I think they stated when she was created. Seems like Marvel forgot of Dust from the X-men.
In the overall scheme of introducing new characters, less really is more. Tease them popping up here and there performing some awesome feats, or assisting other heroes against a villain. Instead, what Marvel did was attempt to force feed her to an following that didn't exist yet, much like they did with Carol Danvers Captain Marvel. People were skeptical and it didn't feel natural. And frankly, her overall story arc just wasn't that interesting. Teenage girl sleep overs, trips to the mall and the local cafe, getting browbeat by her conservative older brother over going on a date with a non-Muslim... this is YA stuff driven by her creative team and doesn't paint her well as a compelling superhero.
When i came back into collecting comics, I knew nothing about Kamala Khan. I also have no issues with the character. But shes definitely not a character i would collect. To me, The comic industry does this character a disservice. The first being they named her after a character that is currently being called Captain Marvel who has never really been like a favorite Marvel character to begin with. Secondly, they didn't as you said show us why she's a hero. Instead they used her Race and Gender to try to Market to newer fans by baiting the fans that were currently buying their books. Then they gave her Powers that are not even remotely interesting, since they practically mimic Reed Richards. I tried to read her comic, and i felt like i was reading a show that was mean to be on the Cartoon Network. Look they keep saying they want diversity and representation, But why do they keep giving these characters Names and Powers that have already been used before?
Haven't read past the first trade, but your argument seems sound. Shame if they've permanently wrecked the character, she really was a decent read early on.
The context: she essentially entered an Avengers fan-fiction contest to meet the Avengers. Kamala was one of the contestants and participated in a scavenger hunt to find more of the classic comics. Which led to this scene where she’s looking for a Captain America comic.
People don't like her because she is a d-list character who, marvel constantly tells you that she's a-list... There's nothing wrong with her being a d-lister but, there has to be an understanding as to where she is seen by the fans.. marvel, my guess amanat, refuses to accept this.. she doesn't sell books yet, fans see better selling books get cancelled while, Kamala gets reboot after reboot.. and now, she's just getting shoehorned into everything whether fans want her or not.. that avengers game should just be called Kamala and friends since you spend 80 percent of the game as her.. nobody wanted that..if marvel had just written good stories with her and fans had taken to her organically, there wouldn't be so much resentment towards her..
You know--comic book readers don't give a flying shit about a character's political alignment or even his origin per se. A character can be damned-near anything: geek, Muslim, girl, gay, human, not human--or all of those things at the same time. Comic readers just want good comics. The problem with this character is that many of her stories have been, and continue to be, poorly crafted and foisted upon the audience ad nauseam.
Kamala Kahn for me was my gateway into the Marvel Universe. Only growing up with the cartoons and movies, it was fun to read A story threw the eyes of A fan. Now during this time Marvel has there awful Civil War 2 event and while the book was garbage, one thing I am glad they address was the bond breaking from Carol and Kamala. Kamala May look up to her but not all her views agree and that for A bit broke them apart. Kamala is still A new character who over time will grow. That alone is exciting enough. Despite the odd story choices Marvel makes, Kamala still ends up A fun read.
I despise...DESPISE the fandom at times... This shouldn't even be a thing... I can guarantee you...promise you.... if Captain Marvel was not a teen girl, this conversation, this "agenda" that everyone spouts, this constant push back of anything about this character would not exist. Find it funny that all of the characters that create controversy and and bring out the cliche descriptors like SJW and MarySue are all women. I have yet to hear anyone whine and bitch about male characters 'ruining' the story or pushing politics etc
Ms. Marvel wasn't even the first muslim girl in the Marvel Universe. DUST came years before her. I think the problem with the character is that she was so long connected to something that looks like an agenda instead of having the character stand on her own.
Dust, as much as I love Grant Morrison, was a terrible "character". She was just a cipher for every burqa-wearing Muslim girl. Kamala Khan is more like a real character, not a political point. But your point is accurate, Dust did come first.
@Kunoros Hound of Athreos Really? Didn't Dust have several character arcs and save the students asses several times? I think there was even a future story arc where she had lost her faith.
@@inotaishu1 you might be right, I only read Morrison's run, my days of reading every xmen book ended a little after, I may not be aware if they developed her more. But I certainly didn't think she was very interesting in the original New X-Men run, but even so, i was thrilled to have any Muslim characters. And in the same vein, Kamala Khan is more like a lot of kids I know, so she feels at least somewhat more real to me.
I tried. I really did -- but about 11 minutes into your video I completely ran out of all the interest in Ms Marvel that I possess. I think that fans didn't initially react for the same reason I didn't --- No one gives a crap about that character. I didn't care about her in 1977 when she was obviously rolled out to exploit what was left of the 'women's lib' movement of the 70s. I didn't care about her when the legendary Chris Claremont took over the book and gave her an 'actual personality', and all race/gender/sexuality swaps they want to do are doing little to change my indifference. Quite frankly, if Claremont couldn't make me give a damn, I can't think of any writers working today that could. Claremont at least had an idea of who she was -- ever since he put her down, she's been nothing but a cardboard cutout --- like a store display --- rather than a 'real' character. She's what Marvel uses to virtue signal how progressive they are -- and every incarnation of the character they try to roll out only serves to remind the readers of how irrelevant and disposable she is as a character.
![BOLIVIA vs. COLOMBIA [1-0] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zg15uVWjuf4/mqdefault.jpg)
I want a Perch and Zack colab so we can get both the car noises and the cough in one video.
I'll see what I can do.
Zack's cough at the beginning of his videos is a trademark, like a official hologram seal.
Here's an anecdote that somewhat backs up your theory. Disney XD came out with Black Panther's Quest just after the release of the film. I remember hearing about it and thought it would be some light, fun entertainment. When the first episode came out (you can legit watch it here: ruclips.net/video/0B9JOAX99pc/видео.html), Ms. Marvel had as much dialog as Black Panther, certainly more than any other Avenger, and she was at the front of the team during the big fight scene in the first 5 minutes.
I remember thinking "Why is this person here? Why is she getting so much attention in a Black Panther cartoon? Where's the Hulk? Why is Ms Marvel doing so much of the talking and in the same timeframe you have nothing from either Capt. America or Black Widow? What is this?"
In other words, Ms Marvel was being shoved to the front and treated as a co-leader of the Avengers when - and here's the key - her canon and her powers weren't established enough to earn that spot. That's the difference. She didn't earn her place at the table, and it just comes off as forced and fake. Just my opinion.
Ms Marvel’s origin: Inhuman who is/was a fangirl of Captain Marvel/Carol Danvers. She’s like Amadeus Cho to Hulk, a side character elevated to main character. Real page turner there.
Better idea: Tied to Secret Invasion, Kamala would be a teen spy for the Skrulls with 1 Super Skrull ability (Mr Fantastic’s power), who defies her orders and inspired by original Captain Marvel/Mar-Vell, who defied the Supreme Intelligence to side with Earth/Humans, she becomes an ally of the F4/Future Foundation. Boom, easy peezy retcon.
She even could be some sort of Skrull Space Muslim, finding the Earth religion a perfect analogue to her own. So many small tweaks they missed out on incorporating
Holy fuck that sounds way better than what Marvel did with the character
Shanoske i used to read Fantastic Four so being familiar with the source material helps alot. Its really similar to how Johnny fell in love with a Skrull, Lyja, who was impersonating Alicia Masters.
you know nothing jon snowden I remember that storyline, it was interesting twist they did but I can definitely see Kamala going that route.
@@ferrarriohh Skrull Space Muslim...?! Yikes...
I really liked Kamala in that very first arc. I liked her family dynamic and her supporting cast. Like you said, very much like old school Spider-man. But then she quickly devolved into being a mouthpiece for the writer's strawman arguments against "toxic fandom" and she just became insufferable. That clip you showed of the game is exhibit A. My eyes rolled into the back of my head.
It's like having Robin around for the kiddies, I knew no kids who wanted to be Robin, they wanted to be Batman.
Well, Robin was kind of dated by the 70s & 80s (the costume was no help). It took Dick Grayson to become Nightwing, and his successors Jason Todd and Tim Drake to make Robin cool. With Kamala Khan, it's aggressive idea-by-committee.
@@Madbandit77 Damian Wayne made Robin cool not Tim or Jason. Damian Wayne and Red Hood are the cool kids of the bat family. They are the ones who kids these days want to be and know. Tim is a dated nineties relic that no casuals know and he is the least cool of all the Batkids including Harper and Duke.
@@chinyereugwu9431 Who wore the 90s Robin costume first? Tim did.
I'm confident quoting that Captain America's speach is a sure way to get beaten up by bullies.
It is somewhat insulting the bullying of her as some sort of crucial element of her origin.
“What’s her pathos?”
“Oppression from comicbook nerds.”
To be fair... that shit happens.... I've gotten it plenty of times I think ppl just hate the character
Marvel: We made a muslim character.
Everybody: Oh, so progressive!
Marvel: She is inhuman.
Everybody: Are you sure this is not... racist?
God she comes off as so smug in that scene. I've always wanted to like her, but I just can't manage it.
To some extent, I felt Ms Marvel suffered from the same problem as DC's New Age of Heroes characters. (Although I much preferred the latter!) DC and Marvel used to understand that when you want to launch a new character, you give them a guest spot in someone else's book. If they're well received, you make them a recurring character. Then, if they're popular, fans will call out for a solo title. If they're not, they can be retired without creating any major ripples.
Instead, DC and Marvel just threw these characters out there in their own books and practically demanded that people like them. To my mind, Damage and Silencer in particular, could have been break out characters if fans had been allowed to warm to them through appearances in other books, over time. How did the industry forget that fans are reluctant to spend money on books featuring characters they don't know? Maybe it's another consequence of having replaced all the wise old heads with new, inexperienced "talent," but the industry appears to have forgotten the basics of how its own market operates.
Actually, the Silencer was the most successful of the new DC heroes at the time (Richard Meyer liked her), and I wouldn't be surprised if the character came back.
But you're right on establishing new characters in their own books, and the Silencer is a rare exception.
@@Madbandit77 Oh, I think everyone who read Silencer loved it. The trouble is, not enough people did read it. That's the tragedy.
Personally, I preferred Damage, but I liked Silencer as well, and I thought the Terrifics was a lot of fun (which was a big surprise because I wasn't previously a fan of any of the characters in that book!)
Two of the best marvel titles - Daredevil and Immortal Hulk - have one very important thing in common. Consistent creative teams that are telling good stories within a larger story arc that is being told simultaneously. The issue with Kamala Khan is the same issue that Marvel has with a lot of their characters - creative teams on a revolving door and overuse of cross over events. In that shuffle, the core of a character gets lost and we end up with flat, uninteresting characters exactly like the version of Ms. Marvel that's presented in the new Avengers game. A lot of the "problems" in comics could be corrected if the industry returned to a consistent creative team model instead of this six-issue-expiration-date on creative teams and constant title cancelations and reboots that we see now.
"Plant yourself like a tree".
I understand this reference.
I have a lot to about Kamala Khan. I'll be upfront; I'm NOT white. I'm indian but I have plenty of friends who are Muslim and Indian;so consider this a unique perspective. Kamala Khan concept wise COULD have worked. The best comparison I can make to her is Virgil Hawkin/ Izuku Midoriya from Static Shock and My Hero Academia respectively. Virgil being a non-white character and Midoriya being a massive fanboy of All Might, much like Kamala is of Carol Danvers. The DIFFERENCE is that the writers of Kamala post Wilson have instead chosen to focus on developing the superficial elements about her. As Literature Devil put it in his great video "Didn't I mention she was Muslim?"(ruclips.net/video/4JSyPIETzyo/видео.html) very much reinforces what Kamala Khan is. A bad stereotype. And that isn't to say you cannot have faith in superheroes represented well. Matt Murdock, Ben Grimm and Kitty Pryde are great examples being Catholic and Jewish respectively. You can have faith play a role of being a superhero. It just cannot be overly preachy.
But my primary beef with Kamala Khan is two-fold. One is that as a legacy hero; she doesn't really earn her position. Contrast this with Stephanie Brown Batgirl or even Miles Morales in the Spider-verse movie. Both characters needed to earn the respect and prove why they were worthy of holding the mantle. Kamala could have been like this to where Carol was skepticial about her holding the mantle and how Kamala Khan proves through her actions that she does deserve the title of Ms. Marvel.
But from what I gather, she doesn't actually earn the position. The second problem I have with Kamala is as you say, people forcing others to like her. I'm not white and heck, even though I'm not Muslim; I have plenty of friends who are. They tell me they do not like Kamala because there are those that want to force them to like her. And I'm sorry; that does not work. You CANNOT shame others into liking what you like. It's like going to a restaurant and having the chef/ owner force you to eat something.
Good characters/ food will naturally be tantalizing if you put in the hard work/ effort and are open to feedback. Overall, I do like the concept of Kamala Khan, but she has been a victim to the dogmatic one sided nature of Marvel comics and them trying to make her the best thing WITHOUT putting any effort into her being likable and having to earn her position.
Neil speak that truth for real
Well, I couldn’t have put it better myself.
I wholeheartedly agree with every point you made here.
I agree on almost all your points. But I still support Kamala Khan, even if I dropped the book after the first relaunch.
Because there just isn't anyone else who I can say, Muslim superhero right now. Who? Dust? The Batman of France? No, if this is all Muslims get, then I don't care. Something is better than nothing.
And she's Pakistani. I'll always side with her, just for how little I've ever seen Pakistan represented positively in almost any other media.
That reminds me, what happened to Green Lantern Simon Baz in DC? Did they just forget about him?
What bothers me about this character is that she self righteous and arrogant. She’s constantly getting praised and admired by everyone. I tried giving her a chance but she just felt flat. I’m worried how she will be implemented in the Avengers game.
I consider my self a long time comic book reader (I read my first when I was around 6 years old amd now Im 43) and I can tell you that I dont know quotes from comics. Well, yes, the classic "lets face it tiger, etc" or the Green Lantern thing, but thats all, Im afraid. Maybe im weird...
Those quotes weren't preachy. 😊
"You know who said that?"
Mark Waid, through the mouth of Captain America.
I enjoyed her volume 1 and bought it for my friend’s daughter and she ended up loving it. I don’t expect many older male readers to like this book though.
How childish...this comes off as a Disney channel movie.
Oh god it does.
Appropriate for a Disney + character.
As a Muslim, the comic was groundbreaking. Grant Morrison's "Vinamarama" was the first book that spoke to my experience in my lifetime, but this was a pop extension of that. Her family life, her need to hide her identity from her conservative family, was a great update on Peter Parker. She was a nerdy fangirl, which was fun, and she was a very bubbly and enthusiastic character, which I found entertaining. For a time.
I was turned off by the comic due to the very decompressed pace (obviously to pad a story and sell more issues) and the constant reboots. I haven't read the issues later when she was pushed into Avengers, but that's because all Marvel and DC comics are wearing thin with me. It's all reboots and re-mixes of familiar characters to push some marketing that has nothing to do with comics. I agree with you on this.
Kamala Khan was forced down the fans throats, but there were many fans of her that have nothing to do with her comics (which is the future of all IPs in this business, I think). The market isn't for comics, which I get is your focus, but she was made to be bigger than comics, like or not.
But I don't care, because Kamala Khan has allowed all of us to know and discuss things and issues that we have never done before. Particularly, the arc where they discuss Partition, the division of India into Pakistan and Bangledesh, a tragic event that my father experienced personally, was worth all the over-exposure of this character alone. This was a huge historical event that almost no one has heard of, and this book put a focus on it even among older people of the sub-continent who had never read a comic in their lives, the pages were being shared by email and on Facebook by people my father and mother's age.
Did it sell the comic? Hell no. But it was a good thing for the comic world, for the Pakistani world, for the American fans, on a whole.
And to be honest Perch, I love your channel, but this very rant plays into the idea OG fans will reject this new character based on her background. Many people say her powers are boring, her character is mediocre, and they're all right, but they, and you, miss the point. I get she's been pushed down our throats and I agree that she isn't the best, but the fact that you relate to the kid who acts like a jerk, saying he represents the average comic fan (I don't relate to him, I relate to her, which might be the point of what I'm saying), while that scene is an over-exaggeration, like all superhero melodrama is, I have experienced exactly that kind of situation, being talked down to, and I've seen this happen a lot when it is a young girl and especially if it is a person of color. The fact this irks you is acceptable, but I see a lot of truth in it, even if it is over the top soap opera dialogue.
I know you are going to say that you were only discussing how the industry, the fans of comics themselves reacted to it and her forcibly increased profile in the universe of comics, and as a fan of comics for almost 30 years, I see all your points. But I think you're reaction is an over-reaction, Kamala Khan is a small part of the Marvel universe, and if she is being artificially being pushed to the top, I personally, have no problem with that. I don't buy the comics, and no one else has to either. And if her inclusion in comics causes people to stop buying the comic, well, I have no problem with that either. Honestly, a lot of those books were never going to be bought no matter which version of Captain Marvel or Spider-Man you put into the book.
All the things you mentioned were excellent, and when Kamala was written solidly, it WAS refreshing. I just felt the comic got really stale really fast. I also think it's unfair to the character, but she's come to represent the things that many fans hate about contemporary Marvel. Plenty of other characters have been totems for Marvel's politics, but most of them have a long publication history that insulates them from backlash. I think Marvel missed a great opportunity to build a solid character for a new generation of readers, but they botched. We never really got to know her as a real flesh and blood character.
@The Credible Hulk In regards to the first 12 issue run, "written well" is a subjective bar for each person. Her powers are boring, but her actual personality is true. Kamala staring at the bacon and commenting on how good it smells? On point. Her fan-fic, slash-fic craze, based on reality, we all know girls like that. Written well is a metric that has different meanings. I think she was fine, I liked her geeking out with Wolverine. But your mileage may vary.
@The Credible Hulk My cousin loves him, but I've never been a big Green lantern fan except for Geoff John's run up until and after Darkest Night. But again, this is my point, until another Muslim hero gets this kind of attention, I have a moral obligation to push Kamala Khan so people know she exists. And there is a lot I actually like about her character, and a lot I don't like. Having her in the limelight, in my own experience, has given me opportunities to talk about my people (Muslims, Pakistanis, Comic Book fans) with people who have no understanding of this world, until now.
Simon Baz might be a better character, but Kamala Khan is a better opportunity for Muslims. Not only to show how normal we are, but also to show how we differ from her. And that only begins if people are talking about it, like y'all are.
@The Credible Hulk never cared for Simon Baz until he teamed up with Jessica Cruz and became part of the Justice League run. My issue with his original title as a Muslim myself is that it felt too post 911 (he was wrongly suspected of terrorism, had the authorities and even the League after him), it felt they were too hard to make him relevant and then there's the whole him trying to carjack a car before he got the ring, it was like the comic was saying "hey look we got a superhero for you Muslims and he used to be a criminal" and I'm like "thanks but no thanks" that's why I preferred Kamala Khan she felt like a more relatable character.
Ms. Marvel is essentially another in a long line of females taking the same name to occupy a role. Creatively bankrupt, she’s a pastiche of Peter Parker & Mr Fantastic (high school student/New Yorker and a stretchy person), but worse: she’s everywhere, all the time.
Inhumans were a hardsell back when Marvel used them outside of the Fantastic Four, even less appealing as some sort of analogue for mutants.
It seemed like Marvel, the media sites, and a few “fans” were always to guilt into liking her character and buying her comic. Which ended up only pushed me further away from comics entirely. Why couldn’t I just not like her?
I watched a stream of the campaign yesterday and genuinely liked how she was portrait in the game!
I and friends all thought she was insufferably annoying in that game. She fangirls about the most basic shit and says it out loud. She even says "I'm literally freaking out" after finding Iron Man's guitar. Who the hell gives a shit about Iron Man's guitar? The game is full of stupid moments like this.
I question how she would know what Captain America said in order to be able to quote him? She wasn’t there when he said it, and I highly doubt that something like that would be common knowledge or reported on somewhere.
I think there is a real immaturity in the writing that came in the last few years. It didn't help that the kind of people who decided that Ms. Marvel was The Superhero were...just really obnoxious about it. Which I think is kind of what you're saying, but they took the relatively complicated political things Wilson was putting into the comic, and turned it into "in your face" just like the Bleeding Cool articles did.
I think that sometime in the early 2000's, comic fans developed a distaste for the 'aw shucks', and 'gee wilikers' sidekick type characters. For me, Kamala Khan started off as a promising character, but they quickly started making her books too silly and too lighthearted. I never felt as though the character ever faced any real danger or villains.
Contrast that with characters like Robin(Batman), Kitty Pryde (X-Men), and even Jubilee (X-Men), who faced real and credible threats as barely teenagers. These threats helped lead to the characters growth. Kamala Khan never had that and so her character remains a stagnant trope.
I've read the comic since it came out. My kid and I love to read about her adventures. She writes fan fiction, is a gamer, and has a fun perspective on the Marvel Universe. I have never understood the push back. If she is not for you, don't read her books. I don't read Punisher or Batman and can refrain from trash talk.
Loren Fleming its somewhat built into the fandom. For yrs ive loathed Impossible Man and for a lonnnng time i hated the over abundance of Deadpool at Marvel. He can be funny under a good writer, but like anything, seeing him on so many teams and just crammed into books, its grating.
Like this game: its essentially a giant promo for Ms Marvel on Disney+.
All the marketing would ever say about Kamala Khan was that she was a Muslim. I didn't even know what her powers were until I started watching some of the comic book review channels. The drawings of her always just show her with really big hands.
Since Marvel and DC have very very popular characters when introducing a new character it needs to have the best story and the best art of the month first issue must be a must have if you don’t do that then you’ve already failed
Kamala Khan writes a fanfic about Wanda and Vision, causing Tom Brevoort to have an aneurism, due to his shipping of Wonderman.
When I was in Washington DC last summer we visited American History Smithsonian and they unexpectedly had an exhibit on superheroes where they had some comics in a case and there was a Kamala khan Ms Marvel #1 next to a bunch of classic issues and first appearances. It puts things into perspective beyond a small internet troll bubble. That clip was kinda lame lol but the character has a large audience.
DC did the exact same thing with Batwoman. I'll never forget the media buzz and interviews with Dan Didio about her. Every other word was either lesbian or gay in descriptions of her. Frankly, I want to know more about the character than her sexuality, religion or skin color. It would be like if Superman was introduced for the 1st time and when somebody asked about powers or personality and was told he was a white, straight, protestant male from another planet and when you ask for more details, you get "well, did I mention he's white and protestant? He's also a straight man?" When you ask about why should you care to spend money on his book: "He's from the mid west so you can relate to him." That's what we got from Marvel and DC execs and media when it came to Ms. Marvel and Batwoman and frankly fans don't care for having characters being pushed on them (this is the future of the Marvel Universe b/c we think she's cool), being talked down to or being lectured to about characters or stories.
More or less Ms. Marvel and Batwoman were given the Poochie* treatment
(*look it up, it's from The Simpsons).
For me, i guess it was the overexposure, and you must like her-attitude, that made me say no. Same with Captain Marvel as the new flagship. Her origin and faith never really mattered to me. I remember finding Dust in one of the young x-team (was it Hellions?) interesting.
The obsessive nerd and fan-girling was a bit annoying, i can agree on that. Mostly because the fans i have come to know, never really behaved like that. But it might be more common with girls. What do i know? -But never the big tick-off
There's also the fact that with the new Captain Marvel being female, the Ms. Marvel codename no longer makes any sense.
Having not read it. I can only things like this .
1 We had a Ms Marvel, now Capt. MARVEL
2 Her powers as not very exciting, its like a Mr Fantastic, Elongated man ,Plastic Man, and a couple others.
3 i think she was over hyped for those powers, then an Avenger!!! At 14?
4 lastly it came in the time that marvel was pushing for female heroes , some that had just arrived like Squirel Girl, American Chavez. It became so evident that girl talk and who was lgbtq then action scories
Those are things i picked up on, and i am way to hold to spend more money on Heroes that talk more then any other.
My comic shop only sold 3 of her books a month ( to be fair american chavez and capt marvel were not doing better in his store)
Hmmm. My thoughts in response:
1) I liked Ms. Marvel, but she was initially nothing but a gender-flipped Captain Marvel (the Kree guy that died of cancer, that is) with a really ham-handed "I'm a feminist" message driving her characterization. She got a little better in her "black swimsuit costume" days and then in the X-Men and her tensions with Rogue de-powering her. What she's become I don't know enough about to comment. There's certainly room for someone else to use the name.
2) I really like "stretchy" heroes, and wish comic creators would do more with them. Their powers sets (especially with some shapeshifting tossed in) are visually interesting and remarkably versatile and deserve better than the ever-tedious Mr. Fantastic or the comedic spin the DC stretchers invariably get stuck with. Even Ralph was a goof, and Plaz has always been a joker - or a joke. So, no, no reason her power can't be exciting, particularly not to me.
3) How many stretchers with shapeshifting does the Avengers roster have, again? I don't recall the Super-Skrull on the roster, and beyond that how many stretchers are there in Marvel period? This isn't DC where even Jimmy Olsen gets those powers now and then. Recruiting a useful power set for a team doesn't seem out of line to me, and despite all the mystique the Avengers have never been very exclusive. There roster over the years has included people like the Two-Gun Kid, Star Fox (must resist barrel roll joke...) and the Swordsman. It's a really low bar to get in. Almost as low as the Defenders, who I'm pretty sure had a pizza delivery guy on the team one issue.
She was 16 when introduced, which is realistically still way too young to be a superhero - but her age has factored in to a lot of the earlier stories (the only ones i've read) and Peter Parker wasn't any older when he got bit, nor were any of the legacy sidekicks like Bucky and Robin. Perch is right, the early stuff felt like a bit like early Spiderman.
That said, she was certainly overhyped. I've only read the first trade's worth of her (which was a bestseller for Marvel, and may explain why she got so much page time so fast) and I understand it's gone downhill, but her early days were fine. I'd even go as far as to say some of it was downright innovative. A shame if they've wrecked the character with all these terrible event books and pushing the hype. She had potential.
You are absolutely correct Mr Perch. I have never heard her religion or ethnecity given as reason for disliking the character. The "Greatest, Bestest, Bravest Fangirl done good EVER" is usually number one. Her costume gets brought up a bit but I think that's when someone already doesn't like her. The detention centre in Civil War 2 and lack of repercussions/consequences of her actions she faces in general is also a big one. Her hanging out with adult heroes(poker and beer night changing because of the underage muslim?!?) who constantly validate her has been coming up more too. Of course Bleeding Cool pushed for constraversy - They NEED to be right that every fan is a bigot(even non-American non-anglo ones like me).
For me personally? I hate the "Writes fanfiction about (in her universe) real people, some of whom she's met and 'ships' them" thing. I am NOT the target audience. I did give it to someone who was...I bought my Daughter the first trade when it came out and she didn't like her powers or costume and thought everyone brags too much(she said that about EVERY Marvel "Girl" book I bought her though). She didn't hate it, just didn't want another one.
I believe you are describing the trope Flanderization, it’s when a quirk becomes exaggerated to the point where that’s all there is to a character. What you’re saying is that is what’s happening to Kamala Khan, Marvel took the trait of her being a fangirl and overdid it to a point where she’s a socially inept nerd.
How is anyone supposed to relate to a comic book character that's just a regular person and a superhero at the same time, there's nothing marvelous about a regular joe
Once upon a time there was a online conflict called gamergate it was an outgrowth of the increased mainstreamification with it greater demographic Alteration of fandom. Where they were a vehicle for major studios putting things out as well as trying to chase different demographics and markets. alongside this is in fact a long-term attempt to make fandom much more female friendly. with yes re-existing issues of sexism. With the sudden influx of this social capital there some factions happily hook their train up either for validation advancement but especially social power. This all comes to a head through three major actions you probably heard names like Zoe Quinn or Anita sharpesian
needless to say fandom isn't just one thing stuff that happens in the game sphere creates an attitude because there are members who share multiple hobbies but especially with comics people wanted to act like they were social activists and one way they did that was by creating the bunch of traits that they knew what piss people off and then attack a group that they knew had less social capital.
so in order to combat what was perceived as negative feelings for Muslims and girls with interest in geeky hobbies and or science fiction they created the polemic fangirl especially to the counter the nasty statements against then popular brown hair girls such as Bella swan and katniss everdeen
this was addressing a very real issue much as was pointed out in the book Lovecraft country that we had genre fiction that had on its basis racist assumptions whether that was Tarzan John Carter of Mars and yes Lovecraft. but much like the creation of Miles Morales and several other characters you couldn't help but feel, much as you noted with this latest version, that the point of the character wasn't to be a character to celebrate and build a relationship with audience but to brow beat the audience.
This is especially with fangirl interests being lionized as a social good even when in many waysjust as venal Petty and low-key messed up. Something that nobody would own up to until it was socially advantaged to do so
as an example people constantly pointing out how mean male nerds are to female or anything that's associated with female or progressive or gay fashions. Until suddenly they want to beat on those people then suddenly they can acknowledge the exact same traits those accused bogpts with people were mad about as existing even flawed
It's hilarious because I can point to things like people flipping out about the last Jedi and how people jump the gun on a character like admiral holdo. But then turn around and prosecute the in their name reylo fandom because they're all fighting against patriarchy. In short it's very clear when someone makes a character and they're meant to be a learning lesson for the audience. And very deliberately from conception that was the point of Miles Morales and Kamala Khan. The only positive thing you could say at least with KK is that she was deliberately meant to be empathetic to that kind of girl.
the problem is much like you said when they start saying she was the future it very much came with an implicit you guys are the past and you guys sucked until we came here
It's with this attitude that even though I don't have a problem reading the first three or so of her trade there is a lot of fangirlism that bothers me. from the fact that she's associated with the push of the inhumans which was very much more mandated by the fox marvel Disney pissing match. To the fact that she has Loki guest star along with agents of shield thus meaning that she was very much part of the thin media tie in and fan gasm of pushing Loki which also fed into the idea of Loki as the best queer boyfriend. and they made it clear that this was going to be the future. basically they were going to be as Petty as they always were just aiming towards fangirl it's as opposed to males preference and then they were going to tell us how we were monsters for not going along with it.
And again those first three trades pretty well written and okay ish. They're all about character. which makes them kind of interesting but that doesn't change the fact that you can easily see what they're trying to do with having literal villain called the inventor who's also Thomas Edison who's all about demoralizing and exploiting the younger generation who all turn out to be super geniuses anyway
All this and a wolverine cameo
add in like you noted that people who were not about comics couldn't shut up about praising her as the future of comics as if everything was crap until she showed up and it just hurt a lot. especially as you noted it was all this other mess going on but she was part of the initiative of streamlining marvel towards the media Disney push.
and very deliberately made in order to push out everybody who would come before
even down to the likes of the audience to push for a different audience who they said was a more moral audience
Civil War 2 is the only bit I've read of her, it's cemented both Ms and Captain Marvel as villains to me. From the civil war 2 comics, I see her as an ugly inverse of Mr Fantastic.
Are you saying desperation is a stinky cologne?
Pretty much what others have said before: Kamala has/had potential, her concept is solid and has been done elsewhere so it can work, her early series wasn't bad but come Civil War II things started going downhill for her sadly especially with politics becoming all the more obvious of a driving force.
What didn't also help was overexposure and the "You must love her or else!" Mentality behind her marketing and some fans as well being directly tied into two other franchises with the same problem: Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel and the Inhumans being made into knock-off X-Men. Since Disney got the rights to X-Men and shelves the Inhumans after the damage done to them I can see why they're quiet on Kamala being one. You also got a point on her surface traits being over exaggerated by other writers most specifically her being a Muslim and a Fangirl, with the rest kind of varying. One example is Waid's version of her is known for being so upset with how the Avengers wouldn't personally rebuild buildings destroyed in battle she left to form the Champions. First issue of her new series by Ahmed had her accidentally destroy a store and came off bratty to the justifiably angry owner. Some will see it as writers not doing their research which sadly happens quite a bit or worst case the character seen as a hypocrite to some especially if they're a fairly new characters with other factors going against them. One thing that personally bothers me about her is how Marvel and certain media praise her as their "best thing since Spider-Man" when she hasn't really done much to earn that title in terms of personal accomplishments. She's made from a similar mold as Peter and there's nothing wrong with doing that kind of "ordinary kid becomes a superhero" with a different cultural twist to it but it felt like they handled Kamala (and other modern hyped, young characters) with kid gloves compared to their predecessors. I don't think she should see all her loved ones murdered in front of her but maybe at least building a rogues gallery that challenges her more other than simply "fascism" and "Islamaphobia" or something. Then again, this could be because her writers are afraid of getting called "bigots" if something bad happens to her even if it's something white guys routinely deal with I.e. recent Star Wars comic had Boba Fett kill a black woman, just like he killed so many others before, and suddenly SWHatesWomen is a trending tag. Kamala's books also seem more geared to a YA for nerd girls and maybe younger like other books out there like Squirrel Girl so I can see that as a rift between her series and the usual comic fanbase that tends to be teen boys and men.
Also, no qualms about the costume but I get how stretchy powers can be a little weird for some to get over or have a character be fun and creative with it.
Also, that scene with the "real fans" bullies was eye roll worthy. I'm not denying fan elitism exists and I've seen it first hand from people of all walks of life. However, here it feels like it plays into the narrative of "fanboys are bigots who hate sharing their hobbies with girls/PoC/LGBT+" and of course, if you don't like characters like Kamala for any reason you're just like them. There's also how a lot of comic fans tend to just be super awkward, or even autistic, and just get carried away talking about their hobby while unintentionally coming off rude. I'll admit I've been there trying to talk to someone who acted like an authority on the comics when they didn't seem to ever read them and seemed to just watch the shows (while ironically talking down about others who watch superhero shows and don't read the books). Not to mention, the concern of hobbies being re-tooled to be more "inclusive" for people who never cared about them before while alienating the older fanbase.
Being a comic reader who also happens to be Muslim, I like Kamala Khan, she's just a victim of overexposure by Marvel.
Most of the Muslim superheroes by the big two felt more like token characters than characters for me personally. X-Men's Dust didn't come across as a natural character too me, it felt like Marvel was going "here's a Muslim superhero for you" and I'm like "okay, cool but did she have to wear a naqib? Not all Muslim women cover themselves you know"
Then came Simon Baz from DC for their Green Lantern line, DC basically said "you Muslims will relate to this one, he's down on his luck due to prejudice and forced to a life of crime and when he gets his powers, he's wrongly suspected of terrorism because we live in a society, a Post 911 society". And I'm like "oh goodie, a Muslim superhero with a post 911 background, how appealing.. "
Plus, there were the jerks who were always smug about how they think Muslims should never be portrayed as heroes because it's "unrealistic", whatever the hell that means.
The best Muslim comic character from the big two was Faiza Hussein from Captain Britain and MI13. She felt like a proper character, her background didn't involve 911 or being oppressed by extremists and the M13 series was great. Unfortunately, even though it sold well among UK comic readers, it didn't sell enough in the main US comic market despite being the only good thing to come out of Secret Invasion (Dark Avengers isn't that good)
Kamala felt relatable, she was a comic fan but had to struggle balancing her upbringing with her own desires. There was a charm to the original 18 issue run and the sales showed, it was stable around the 40k range, which in the current climate is decent for a new character and the trades of her early run sold really well (and the trade and graphic novel market is the most profitable part of the comic industry) and the first volume of the trade sold so well, it remained in the top 100 best selling graphic novels charts for around 4-5 years. There's a reason why Marvel started pushing her other than diversity points.
But that's where the problem started, as soon as her fanbase started having a healthy number Marvel decided to push the character even more, making her an Avenger, having her lead her own team. They put so much hype around the character's early success in a short amount of of time, it overexposed her, which led to a backlash against the character, a lot it I feel was overexaggerate.
Completely agree.
Gotta be 100% honest in only going on surface level stuff: her character design looks lame, not interested in her power set, and younger heroes need to be naturally integrated into something I'm loyal to, like Young X-Men/New X-Men/X-Men Academy was firmly in the X-Men world which I was already addicted to.
Her shape-shifting was more interesting at the beginning. But they got really lazy with it. Really lazy.
These faked scenarios do not help the character's likability. The writers of Marvel continue to chase after people that don't read comics and have been hurt by perceived aggression (micro or other). It's not well thought out and it comes off as condescending and insulting to regular readers who were fine with different races of characters until it got political and polarizing.
This.
@@AlecArtComics That's why comic books should be read when you're at least seven or eight, not 14 or 15 or 26.
@@AlecArtComics But comic books can be used as a stepping stone when it comes to reading, especially when you're starting out in grade school.
I wasn't excited for Ms. Marvel but, you know some people were. If the writing is good in any comic I'll read it. Maybe five great titles at Marvel right now, though 🤷
Cause she is not a real interesting character and being forced down our threats. Despite very little fan fare.
How was she forced down our throats? You don't buy the freaking book. It's that simple. I hate this BS "Oh it's such an agenda and just trying to SJW us!" Just don't buy it then. No one says 'They're forcing Iron man down our throats". Guess why?
@@horizonbrave1533 They continue to publish her book despite selling badly. Continue to push her and sjw team she is on despite it already being cancelled. They are rehashing Civil War again with them being center piece. Again pushing her. Putting her in this game. Putting her in MCU when people rather have other characters that aren't in MCU in first. People like iron man that is difference.
@@SuperMutant2099 Lol, what? How many low selling books are still rehashed and dragged all over comics? Last I checked nobody whines and cries about Silver Surfer constantly being pumped out. There's this laughable hivemind mentality to be told to hate XYZ book on youtube. People go on youtube, see these rants and nonsensical angry men who can't stand this "woke" culture and just parrot what they hear. It's just repeating what you hear others bitch about. The whining and stamping of feet comes across the loudest and that's what's echo'd.
@@horizonbrave1533 Dude I was anti that was crap before cool on youtube. Also Silver Surfer actually had best selling books. Unlike Kamala Khan.
This scene of Ms. Marvel getting treated as a fake fan girl, may be a reaction on the writer's part to the criticism by people such as Richard Meyer who say that some creators and editors are just fake geek girls/fan girls.
I’m sure that it is; but I’d ask... was that moment important enough to memorialize in a video game?
Man, that clip was annoying. Partially for using an incredibly tired bully trope, but also for pairing it with a no-true-Avengers-fan fallacy.
It's weird to me that they want to make these fanboy/fangirl characters (though I can't think of an example of a fanboy character) as an ostensible way, as you suggest, to create a character for the actual fans to relate to. The fans are already fond of the existing characters who don't have being a fanperson as one of their characteristics. So, that's clearly not a characteristic fans need to be involved in a character. I guess with Ms. Marvel they figured appealing to the readers' narcissism would be one more tool they could use to assure her popularity.
I saw playthrough of the new Avengers game I thought Kamala aka Ms marvel was good. And the game looks good. I read Ms marvel 2016 comic on online . I thought it was good .
I and friends all thought she was insufferably annoying in that game. She fangirls about the most basic shit and says it out loud. She even says "I'm literally freaking out" after finding Iron Man's guitar. Who the hell gives a shit about Iron Man's guitar? The game is full of stupid moments like this
Ms. Marvel started out strong in the first part of her story. She seemed likable, but inexperienced. She honestly felt like a Peter Parker for a new generation. However, after Secret Wars, everything went to hell. Marvel kept pushing her into everything and her writer, G Willow Wilson, was more interested in pushing her own personal politics than writing a good story. I do not mind Kamala being a more political active character. I think it can work out really well (Green Arrow is a great example of this). However, that came before everything else and she has suffered as a result. What is her rogues gallery...does she even actually have one? No, she does not. It is hard to tell how much she has grown as a superhero when she rarely fights bad guys in colorful spandex. Her character has not gone through much either. Civil War 2 could have been a great chance for some character growth, but that was squandered too.
Honestly, even the new writer for Kamala has not done much with her in developing her character or her appeal as a superhero. If I was her writer, I would dial back some of the politics, not stop it, but just dial it back a little. I would focus on her fighting super villains, creating a rogues gallery for her. While she has political issues and average teenage crap she has to deal with in her civilian life. Think of her as a combo between Green Arrow and Spider-Man.
Oh, and redesign her outfit. I have not been a fan of either of her costumes.
You are spot on she did start out good but terrible writing is ruining her
I always saw her as a “missed opportunity” perfect member of a new junior F4 team, while the OG team was sidelined by Marvel editorial.
Kamala Khan/Ms Marvel
Lyra/She-Hulk
Inferno of the NuHumans/Inhumans
& either Valeria or Franklin Richards, or even Miles Morales, or a revolving membership whatever.
@@manueldanas6255 Innitially the only problem washat she was a bit of a "brownwash character", but that was solved well and justified by her being a fangirl, and then the normal Disneyfied Lost Marbles production and promotion values kicked in....
ThW5 she really comes off as a Disney character within the Marvel Universe more than an actual Marvel character.
@Professeur Râleur Kamala being Muslim is a big part of her character. It is like Superman being an alien or Batman being rich. They would not feel right without that.
I liked her first 12 issues
I got all mad after watching this lol and thought of all these things I wanted to say but then I cooled down and realized this video just wasn't for me lol keep it pushin'
This is a character that popular with kids that consume cartoons, etc all. Sadly kids don't buy a lot of comics.
Is she really popular in cartoons though? I've never seen any kids talk about Kamala when they bring up Avengers movies or shows/ cartoons.
@@renemartinez3451I'm nor a marketer but looks like it.
Two of my favorite characters in Marvel are Kitty Pryde and Kurt Wagner. I dont care about a characters religion if they're good characters. My problems with Kamala has nothing to with religion but horrible creative decisions lol. She's not the first muslim superhero in Marvel as I think they stated when she was created. Seems like Marvel forgot of Dust from the X-men.
Great point at 13:00, Perch.
In the overall scheme of introducing new characters, less really is more. Tease them popping up here and there performing some awesome feats, or assisting other heroes against a villain. Instead, what Marvel did was attempt to force feed her to an following that didn't exist yet, much like they did with Carol Danvers Captain Marvel. People were skeptical and it didn't feel natural. And frankly, her overall story arc just wasn't that interesting. Teenage girl sleep overs, trips to the mall and the local cafe, getting browbeat by her conservative older brother over going on a date with a non-Muslim... this is YA stuff driven by her creative team and doesn't paint her well as a compelling superhero.
Everything you need to know about Ms Marvel is in this video. ruclips.net/video/L8HDZ7j3QIc/видео.html
Sana Amanat in comic book form. NO THANKS
When i came back into collecting comics, I knew nothing about Kamala Khan. I also have no issues with the character. But shes definitely not a character i would collect. To me, The comic industry does this character a disservice. The first being they named her after a character that is currently being called Captain Marvel who has never really been like a favorite Marvel character to begin with. Secondly, they didn't as you said show us why she's a hero. Instead they used her Race and Gender to try to Market to newer fans by baiting the fans that were currently buying their books. Then they gave her Powers that are not even remotely interesting, since they practically mimic Reed Richards. I tried to read her comic, and i felt like i was reading a show that was mean to be on the Cartoon Network. Look they keep saying they want diversity and representation, But why do they keep giving these characters Names and Powers that have already been used before?
Great video
Haven't read past the first trade, but your argument seems sound. Shame if they've permanently wrecked the character, she really was a decent read early on.
I think there is other issues plaguing marvel’s avengers game outside her
Like more of the gaming industry side of things
What is the context of this scene? "Her little story"?
This appears to be the intro of her character to the game.
The context: she essentially entered an Avengers fan-fiction contest to meet the Avengers. Kamala was one of the contestants and participated in a scavenger hunt to find more of the classic comics. Which led to this scene where she’s looking for a Captain America comic.
People don't like her because she is a d-list character who, marvel constantly tells you that she's a-list... There's nothing wrong with her being a d-lister but, there has to be an understanding as to where she is seen by the fans.. marvel, my guess amanat, refuses to accept this.. she doesn't sell books yet, fans see better selling books get cancelled while, Kamala gets reboot after reboot.. and now, she's just getting shoehorned into everything whether fans want her or not.. that avengers game should just be called Kamala and friends since you spend 80 percent of the game as her.. nobody wanted that..if marvel had just written good stories with her and fans had taken to her organically, there wouldn't be so much resentment towards her..
You know--comic book readers don't give a flying shit about a character's political alignment or even his origin per se. A character can be damned-near anything: geek, Muslim, girl, gay, human, not human--or all of those things at the same time. Comic readers just want good comics. The problem with this character is that many of her stories have been, and continue to be, poorly crafted and foisted upon the audience ad nauseam.
Kamala Kahn for me was my gateway into the Marvel Universe. Only growing up with the cartoons and movies, it was fun to read A story threw the eyes of A fan. Now during this time Marvel has there awful Civil War 2 event and while the book was garbage, one thing I am glad they address was the bond breaking from Carol and Kamala. Kamala May look up to her but not all her views agree and that for A bit broke them apart.
Kamala is still A new character who over time will grow. That alone is exciting enough. Despite the odd story choices Marvel makes, Kamala still ends up A fun read.
I despise...DESPISE the fandom at times... This shouldn't even be a thing... I can guarantee you...promise you.... if Captain Marvel was not a teen girl, this conversation, this "agenda" that everyone spouts, this constant push back of anything about this character would not exist. Find it funny that all of the characters that create controversy and and bring out the cliche descriptors like SJW and MarySue are all women. I have yet to hear anyone whine and bitch about male characters 'ruining' the story or pushing politics etc
I think the closest you could point to is Deadpool, for the over exposure aspect.
Ms. Marvel wasn't even the first muslim girl in the Marvel Universe. DUST came years before her. I think the problem with the character is that she was so long connected to something that looks like an agenda instead of having the character stand on her own.
Dust, as much as I love Grant Morrison, was a terrible "character". She was just a cipher for every burqa-wearing Muslim girl. Kamala Khan is more like a real character, not a political point. But your point is accurate, Dust did come first.
@Kunoros Hound of Athreos Really? Didn't Dust have several character arcs and save the students asses several times? I think there was even a future story arc where she had lost her faith.
@@rorshach1117 When I read Khan, she never came across as real to me. Maybe that changed in other titles though.
@@inotaishu1 you might be right, I only read Morrison's run, my days of reading every xmen book ended a little after, I may not be aware if they developed her more. But I certainly didn't think she was very interesting in the original New X-Men run, but even so, i was thrilled to have any Muslim characters. And in the same vein, Kamala Khan is more like a lot of kids I know, so she feels at least somewhat more real to me.
@@inotaishu1 what was unreal about her?
that was lame using Cap's plant urself like a tree speech....
I tried. I really did -- but about 11 minutes into your video I completely ran out of all the interest in Ms Marvel that I possess. I think that fans didn't initially react for the same reason I didn't --- No one gives a crap about that character. I didn't care about her in 1977 when she was obviously rolled out to exploit what was left of the 'women's lib' movement of the 70s. I didn't care about her when the legendary Chris Claremont took over the book and gave her an 'actual personality', and all race/gender/sexuality swaps they want to do are doing little to change my indifference. Quite frankly, if Claremont couldn't make me give a damn, I can't think of any writers working today that could. Claremont at least had an idea of who she was -- ever since he put her down, she's been nothing but a cardboard cutout --- like a store display --- rather than a 'real' character. She's what Marvel uses to virtue signal how progressive they are -- and every incarnation of the character they try to roll out only serves to remind the readers of how irrelevant and disposable she is as a character.