Something that tripped me up was doubling season with phyrexian planeswalkers. You you cast Nissa, Ascended Animist for 5, she'll enter with 10 Loyalty instead of what I assumed would be 6.
Ackshually... There are two possible outcomes based on the order you apply the replacement effects. Let's say you cast Nissa for 5 mana and 4 life. We have the Doubling Season replacement effect and Nissa's (she enters with 4 less loyalty counters instead). 1) Nissa attempts to enter with 7 loyalty. Then you apply Doubling Season and she tries to enter with 14 loyalty instead. After that you apply Nissa's replacement and she will enter with 4 less counters, resulting in a 10 loyalty planeswalker. 2) Nissa attempts to enter with 7 loyalty. Then you apply Nissa's effect and she would enter with 4 less instead, which is 3 loyalty counters. Then you apply Doubling Season and she finally enters with double of that, which is 6. I don't know why you'd want to do that, but I thought it would be cool to share
Thanks for doing a video on this. This interaction has come up so many times and is complicated every time. I think I get it, and then I have to look it up again the next time. The vorinclex interaction is definitely something I didn’t know
I was aware of most of this. When planeswalkers were new, I made a super-friends deck as a bit of an experiment. I'm bad at deckbuilding, so it turned out rather poorly. But, I did take advantage of the fact that Doubling Season doubles the initial counters a planeswalker comes in with, so I could do the ultimate effects right away most of the time. It was especially nasty with a Sarkhan Vol, where I could go right into this ultimate to make 5 dragons, which then became 10 dragons. Doubling Season and Rings of Brighthearth were much cheaper back then. I was not aware of the saga and Vorinclex interactions. I had stopped playing the game when sagas were introduced, so now I have merely a basic awareness of them.
And just for clarification, the same would hold true if for example pir, imaginative rascals replacement effect put an additional counter on the +n ability of planeswalkers, that doubling season then doubles those counters?
Fun thing is how Vorinclex interacts with Battles, or not so fun, since you have to hit the Battle for double the amount and on the other hand, Battles played by your opponents enter with half the counters. :D
Oh man, I remember when they fixed the whole "replacement effects aren't effects" thing, but I didn't realize that when they patched one counterintuitive interaction, they created another...
I have a ruling I’ve run into that I’d love an explanation on. Sphinx of the second sun and trying to use Lithoform engine to try and copy the trigger repeatedly.
You can copy the trigger repeatedly with (e.g.) multiple strionic resonators, but you will still only have 1 postcombat main phase. You will do untap upkeep draw multiple times, then your end step will begin. if you have a source of additional combats that also gives additional main phases...yeah idk
So just to make sure I understand. If I have DS then play Gideon, he starts with 8, then use his +1 ability to make him 9 then add 1 for every creature (lets say 2 creatures) to get 2 more but DS will double the 2 since that came from his ability bit not the 1 to activate it?
since a replacement effect is usually created by an effect , i actually guessed that would be the case intuitively . i supposed for the wrong reasons .
Having these small differences between otherwise seemingly similar effects (the irony) is exactly why it would be better if the cards would receive a functional errata to get rid of these differences. For the vast majority of players they will never play it correct, unless someone points it out to them. So consistency in the intuitive solutions would be appreciated. With the different wordings on triggers and the like that gets increasingly more of a problem that cards do not work as players expect them to work, as seemingly similar effects do not work the same and have different rules applications and outcomes that then surprises them, or they even feel cheated if a player points it out, or even worse, a judge rules it different as its something that is too easy to miss if someone reads the cards and has to be aware of some specific details what an "effect" actually means , especially with the word ambiguity, which makes it even worse, on top of different languages, which probably just take this problem to another level.
I've long said that what this game needs most can't be done, and that's a complete overhaul of every card. D&D completely overhauls every 6-10 years. People joke that it's to make more money selling core books again, but the fact is that the rules get so bloated, with so many supplements and such, that things start contradicting, or finding the info you want becomes really difficult. 2nd edition was a particular nightmare when you had magazines like Dragon and Dungeon releasing new character specs / types with brand new rules, or rules that the developers had never thought of (hey, what if i want to run a campaign on a frozen tundra?). So yeah, every so often we wipe the slate clean and start over again from scratch. There's no way to do that with Magic, though.
I'm an inexperienced player, and it would have helped me if Nick had had THREE creatures. I was confusing the doubling of the loyalty counter with the counters from the two creatures.
How interesting. Arena mistakenly will double the added loyalty counters from ticking up. I assume they just copied the entire scripting process from Vorinclex.
_Man,_ do I hate the way doubling works on starting loyalty counters. I understand the reasoning, but it _feels so wrong._ Intuitively, nobody _put_ counters on a planeswalker, it just _had those counters to begin with._ You put counters on the planeswalker _card_ but that's just bookkeeping-there's never a point in the game when there's a planeswalker in the battlefield with no counters on it. Intuitively, it feels like something is getting triggered on a land becoming tapped when it actually entered tapped. And the explanation-that actually, every single planeswalker secretly has a replacement effect-just feels so arbitrary.
Something that tripped me up was doubling season with phyrexian planeswalkers. You you cast Nissa, Ascended Animist for 5, she'll enter with 10 Loyalty instead of what I assumed would be 6.
Omg is that because they're both replacement effects so you get to chose the order they are applied or something? That's crazy!
Ackshually... There are two possible outcomes based on the order you apply the replacement effects.
Let's say you cast Nissa for 5 mana and 4 life. We have the Doubling Season replacement effect and Nissa's (she enters with 4 less loyalty counters instead).
1) Nissa attempts to enter with 7 loyalty. Then you apply Doubling Season and she tries to enter with 14 loyalty instead. After that you apply Nissa's replacement and she will enter with 4 less counters, resulting in a 10 loyalty planeswalker.
2) Nissa attempts to enter with 7 loyalty. Then you apply Nissa's effect and she would enter with 4 less instead, which is 3 loyalty counters. Then you apply Doubling Season and she finally enters with double of that, which is 6.
I don't know why you'd want to do that, but I thought it would be cool to share
Ok I didn't know about the vorinclex + doubling season + loyalty activations interaction.
I knew about the rest, just not that part myself. Guess my super friends deck just got a bit better! :)
Thanks for doing a video on this. This interaction has come up so many times and is complicated every time. I think I get it, and then I have to look it up again the next time. The vorinclex interaction is definitely something I didn’t know
Omg i love this. Thank you
I feel like I know the answer to this one... But I hope we go over Comet, Stellar Pup
Very cool, Dave.
I was aware of most of this. When planeswalkers were new, I made a super-friends deck as a bit of an experiment. I'm bad at deckbuilding, so it turned out rather poorly. But, I did take advantage of the fact that Doubling Season doubles the initial counters a planeswalker comes in with, so I could do the ultimate effects right away most of the time. It was especially nasty with a Sarkhan Vol, where I could go right into this ultimate to make 5 dragons, which then became 10 dragons.
Doubling Season and Rings of Brighthearth were much cheaper back then.
I was not aware of the saga and Vorinclex interactions. I had stopped playing the game when sagas were introduced, so now I have merely a basic awareness of them.
And just for clarification, the same would hold true if for example pir, imaginative rascals replacement effect put an additional counter on the +n ability of planeswalkers, that doubling season then doubles those counters?
Fun thing is how Vorinclex interacts with Battles, or not so fun, since you have to hit the Battle for double the amount and on the other hand, Battles played by your opponents enter with half the counters. :D
Oh man, I remember when they fixed the whole "replacement effects aren't effects" thing, but I didn't realize that when they patched one counterintuitive interaction, they created another...
I have a ruling I’ve run into that I’d love an explanation on. Sphinx of the second sun and trying to use Lithoform engine to try and copy the trigger repeatedly.
You can copy the trigger repeatedly with (e.g.) multiple strionic resonators, but you will still only have 1 postcombat main phase. You will do untap upkeep draw multiple times, then your end step will begin.
if you have a source of additional combats that also gives additional main phases...yeah idk
@@littlegeek5159 Ya I kinda get it, but I don't understand why I can't respond in my draw step and copy the trigger on the stack.
Quadrupling the loyalty activation is cool
Never been a fan of how Doubling Season interacts will Planeswalkers.
So just to make sure I understand. If I have DS then play Gideon, he starts with 8, then use his +1 ability to make him 9 then add 1 for every creature (lets say 2 creatures) to get 2 more but DS will double the 2 since that came from his ability bit not the 1 to activate it?
since a replacement effect is usually created by an effect , i actually guessed that would be the case intuitively . i supposed for the wrong reasons .
Having these small differences between otherwise seemingly similar effects (the irony) is exactly why it would be better if the cards would receive a functional errata to get rid of these differences.
For the vast majority of players they will never play it correct, unless someone points it out to them.
So consistency in the intuitive solutions would be appreciated.
With the different wordings on triggers and the like that gets increasingly more of a problem that cards do not work as players expect them to work, as seemingly similar effects do not work the same and have different rules applications and outcomes that then surprises them, or they even feel cheated if a player points it out, or even worse, a judge rules it different as its something that is too easy to miss if someone reads the cards and has to be aware of some specific details what an "effect" actually means , especially with the word ambiguity, which makes it even worse, on top of different languages, which probably just take this problem to another level.
I've long said that what this game needs most can't be done, and that's a complete overhaul of every card. D&D completely overhauls every 6-10 years. People joke that it's to make more money selling core books again, but the fact is that the rules get so bloated, with so many supplements and such, that things start contradicting, or finding the info you want becomes really difficult. 2nd edition was a particular nightmare when you had magazines like Dragon and Dungeon releasing new character specs / types with brand new rules, or rules that the developers had never thought of (hey, what if i want to run a campaign on a frozen tundra?). So yeah, every so often we wipe the slate clean and start over again from scratch. There's no way to do that with Magic, though.
how about beseech the mirror + valki?
I'm an inexperienced player, and it would have helped me if Nick had had THREE creatures. I was confusing the doubling of the loyalty counter with the counters from the two creatures.
I'm learning every day. I would totally miss that the +1 loyalty counter is a cost not an effect and this not work with doubling season.
I also thought this was already covered but maybe not?
Next is #666...
Yeah this seems really familiar...
how did I do... I have a headache.....
This game requires either a law degree or an extensive mutual ban list lol
OK that second part where paying the cost effectively _becomes_ an effect thanks to vorinclex is kinda cursed. I get why, but also yikes.
How interesting. Arena mistakenly will double the added loyalty counters from ticking up. I assume they just copied the entire scripting process from Vorinclex.
_Man,_ do I hate the way doubling works on starting loyalty counters. I understand the reasoning, but it _feels so wrong._ Intuitively, nobody _put_ counters on a planeswalker, it just _had those counters to begin with._ You put counters on the planeswalker _card_ but that's just bookkeeping-there's never a point in the game when there's a planeswalker in the battlefield with no counters on it. Intuitively, it feels like something is getting triggered on a land becoming tapped when it actually entered tapped. And the explanation-that actually, every single planeswalker secretly has a replacement effect-just feels so arbitrary.