Why I Chose To Have Children In A Broken World
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- Опубликовано: 12 июн 2024
- Chelsea sits down with author and climate journalist Emma Pattee to talk about the choice to have children (or not) in a world that feels increasingly out of control.
Learn more about Emma here: www.emmapattee.com/
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👏👍 “It’s outside of my integrity to tell someone, “The choices you are making…are harmful,” when I don’t understand the context for those choices.”
I really find the hate for minimalism so surprising. It's literally just intentionality. Don't consume for the sake of consuming. Anything that you have should add value to your life, and only you can decide what that means. How can that possibly be bad? Anybody trying to preach about it as anything other than that doesn't get it.
Aside from that, you are both phenomenal and this was a fascinating conversation.
When the emphasis is on the aesthetic as a status symbol, it can be really annoying. Same with the frugality equivalent
@@vulpixelful I totally agree, but that's not the point of minimalism.
Intentionality IS wonderful. Anywhere people celebrate intentional choices and anti-consumerism is a great space. Unfortunately, in part by “colonization” of the minimalist subculture by outside influencers into an aesthetic with no thought behind it, and in part by some kinda thoughtless people inside it (we can’t dismiss them entirely, not without committing a No True Scotsman fallacy) - there sprang up a sensibility in a lot of minimalist communities that things not immediately in use should be discarded (often into the trash.) There are “proud minimalists” (or at least loud ones) whose solution is that if you turn out to need something, you can “just buy it again” - in effect, for the sake of a clean closet, their storage unit is am@zon or another major polluter, buying new things when (because!) it’s convenient and aesthetic compared to holding onto something that still has useful life. And then there’s a classist moral judgement (again: not by all, but it is *common*) upon people who simply cannot afford to live that way, especially people who culturally go the other way from generations of poverty and/or recent immigration. I’m that person who saves string, rubber bands, junk mail that was only printed on one side, food zip top bags that can be washed, takeout containers others were about to trash - by doing so I don’t have to buy (and we don’t have to pollute the earth to produce) fun trendy cord wrappers, hanging hooks, plant ties, printer and scrap paper, new plastic zip top bags, small trash bags, or tiffins. And it means when I need something that isn’t food, most times, I don’t go to the store or shop online to find it, so I avoid my and others’ use of fuel, money, and additional trash. I rarely produce enough trash to take it out because I’m just never buying things. It’s pretty intentional!! And when I lived overseas it was normal.
TLDR minimalism itself as an aesthetic or lifestyle isn’t a problem, it’s people who mistake being rich and blithely discarding things they are likely to routinely replace, or rotate something else out of their “possession count” for the hot new thing, with proof of moral virtue. But unfortunately a whole lot of very visible people do the latter and brand it as the former, to the point that it’s a majority of what most of us see.
@cwicseolformask Agree agree agree!! Very well said. I think for many people, the momentum needed to break free of consumerism, particularly because we are so heavily entrenched in the US, does come with a high degree of waste and not enough emphasis is placed on deliberate and ethical disposal/repurposing of our possessions. On one hand I do understand that some of us have to exercise our "letting go" muscles, or the "I might need that" could be applied to literally anything in our already hoarded houses, but none of this is one size fits all. (And I say that as someone with OCD who leans towards a hoarding default out of anxiety.) At the end of the day, minimalism should be about making us all more mindful stewards of our lives and resources (time, finances, micro and macro environment, etc), and not about a certain aesthetic.
If I didn’t have to worry about things like, Healthcare, Job security, Education costs, Safety, finding meaning in life etc etc and not just for myself but also for my future child and their children….I’d have lots of children. But I’m exhausted providing/figuring these things out. Why would anyone want to be born, just to be burdened with “having to figure out life”. Living can be EXHAUSTING.
This is such an important point.
exactly, if parents were able to pass on the knowledge then it would be way easier for future generations but most parents themselves don't have things figured out and are rather passing on insecurities and traumas than uplifting lessons and manuals
Sad mindset. Life is good. Kids provide a ton of meaning too.
@@FINAL-B0SS That's a lot of pressure on a child. To "provide meaning" to you.
I think this is so much worse in the States. In my country in Europe we have great healthcare, free and quality education, and it's pretty safe. We get long maternity leave. My kids are 10 and 7 and it is amazing. Everything fell into place when they were born, I'm not wondering about meaning anymore. 🩷 I would not want to have kids in the States.😱
I am Russian and the sentiment of the Siberian woman's mother is very common among the older generations of my country: "we lived our whole lives in shit, why don't you want to?"
I am sorry you are russian... I hope you are not proud of it.
the issue with climate change and consumption is that consumption in the first world is what keeps us docile. there is now an expectation in the first world that material goods are cheap and abundant. thus any attack on that status quo will be greatly unpopular. many of the countries in the imperial periphery that are forced to emit greenhouse gases for manufacture get blamed, and leaders of the countries want to develop their countries and rightly so criticize rich countries for blaming them when rich countries would never attempt or even conceive of lowering their living standards.
My husband and I are child-free by choice for lots of reasons, including environmental ones AND have spent our whole adult lives working in the environmental protection and sustainability space to try to protect this planet for the future generations. We do this because we believe we have an obligation to future generations, yet most parents I know frankly aren't remotely interested. They are not aware and actively avoid being aware. It blows my mind.
Do you think humans are a force for good or a force for evil? Do you think animals destroy the earth?
@@Rob-me8vp In as much as we are animals, animals destroy the earth. Unless you're a flat out climate-change denier, it's pretty hard not to conclude that humans are destroying the earth. Until other animals figure out how to create an industrial revolution and drive overconsumption with lies and refusal to plan sustainably, I think it's safe to say we're the only ones capable of making the planet uninhabitable. Whether or not you consider that a force good or evil, is a matter of perspective. I doubt the rest of the vast universe will miss planet Earth. If you think allowing greed and selfishness to render an entire planet uninhabitable for human and much of plant and animal life is evil, then yeah, we're a force for evil.
The parents I know are aware but it’s too hurtful for them to think about or, like my sister, they’re too busy being a working parent to even be able to do anything about it. (Esp single parent). Not excuses for them but explanations on why it seems like they might not care. I just felt compelled to write this comment since it seemed like generalization in your comment, now we have more points of view tho :)
That's because they are too busy with their kids😛
I agree- it’s very frustrating that the people who decide to bring a child into the world on the basis of confidence in the future are often so preoccupied as to not be able to or not care enough to actually act to help ensure their child’s future. It’s hard to watch
As someone who was denied the ability to have a child due to medical malpractice.
But who still understands that I probably am better off an adoptive mother.
I'm very aware of climate change. And try my best to make decisions that lower my impact. On the activitim front I try my best as disabled woman.
The thing I tell my friends on trying my best in trying to make the best world for my kids.
I can not, in good conscious, look my future children in the face and say I didn't try.
On the subject of tribalism, the talk of the Peleton FB group searching for a cup reminded me of this. I was in "crunchy" mom groups years and years ago. I cloth diapered my babies, I practiced babywearing. For being "natural" there is A LOT of consumerism. Refreshing the page to find the next wool diaper cover release Tuesdays at 10am, limited release of the rainbowest baby wrap, etc. People doing this weird whine thing about their low household income while also posting a photo of their bookshelf of folded baby wraps that you know from window shopping was at least twenty THOUSAND dollars. The tribalism is intense.
How do these people have the time to do this? Sounds so insane and time consuming. When do these moms ever get the chance to enjoy their babies?
i feel like i love my unborn child so much, i won't force them to exist in this hellscape, that's only getting worse. i'd never be able to look them in the eye 20 years from now and explain why there's no drinking water and no clean air to breathe. i refuse to make living a burden they're forced to bare.
and i am someone who has wanted kids my entire life and felt like being a mother was my only calling in life. but it doesn't feel ethical or fair.
I am pretty sure the child wants to live. I don't get this mentality at all. Yes things are bad but there are also sooo many good things and you are depriving yourself and your non-existent baby of existence because of a supposed conversation you will have in the future. I am sure the future kids will say "this sucks, I wish we had better air like back in the day" but I highly highly doubt they will say why oh why was I born.
@@namira24242 I've personally blamed my parents many times for forcing me to exist on this earth and have been depressed and suicidal since i was a child. so its not that far off to think another person can experience those feelings when i've felt it my whole life (:
@@wiltedspinachcat3472 may your troubles be put at ease and the uneasiness and constriction of your heart be lifted. It's a tough position but life is also absolutely amazing and wonderful and may you get to experience that one day.
I think you are vastly underestimating how many of us feel exactly like the Siberian woman who wanted a child. Many of us have just quietly resigned and aren’t talking about it out loud because of how reflexively people respond like that mother- essentially minimizing our concerns about the future by saying people survived before through hardship. I feel like I have to take care of other people’s disappointment or judgement or denial on top of feeling a deep sadness about being robbed of motherhood in many ways.
Climate change is unlike anything any generation has experienced before.
Sure when I was 20 I thought my decision to have a kid was a carbon footprint one. Now it’s the knowing that they will have a worse quality of life and vastly less opportunity. I even worry about dying from climate change as a 31 yo. in the coming years
There was actually such thing as a 'little ice age' between 1300s and 1800s.
So what? It was a way smaller change on a scale than current warming@@vladimir.zlokazov
@@KateeAngel with the level of tech that humanity had it was dramatic enough. yet people did not stop having kids.
@@vladimir.zlokazov you’re either a bot or willfully ignorant. We are talking about a likely 4 degree global increase in temperature in essentially the blink of an eye. Totally different than a short temporary cooling
@@clairbear1234 what I'm saying is that we as a species will have to figure it out. like we always did. Individual choices of having or not having kids have a marginal effect on that fact.
I'm a 45 yr old mom raising kids on the front range of Colorado. I always knew I wanted kids and knew that if I had a partner who wanted them as well, we would have them. But I also could have envisioned life without them (before having them, that is). My daughters know they will never get pressure from me to get married, have kids, etc. So many people succumb to the expectations of society and family, even men I've known who would up in incompatible and unhappy matches to appease their nagging mothers. The pressure happens, single stigma is real and keeps people in bad relationships even still, and not just to women. As parents I can't imagine how we could possibly raise our kids without driving them literally everywhere, here in middle America suburbia. Judge away, but out here in America those are the facts and this is the lifestyle. When my swimmer daughter has a meet in Denver-we go. It's part of her upbringing and I cannot compromise. We travel and hike all over the west. We are lucky to. There's no perfect solutions, and every lifestyle choice has its drawbacks. V. interesting commentary.
I appreciate what you wrote.
This is an interesting topic, as a single, childless woman in her early 30s, I find it hard to think of non-selfish reasons to have a child. I love kids but my God life is hard and it just gets increasingly harder. So I have a lot of anxiety about bringing children into this world at my current circumstances.
I honestly don’t think there are, nor have there ever been, non selfish reasons to have kids. Even the whole, keeping humanity from going extinct cuz of no more babies, is selfish, though in a less individual way. If you want kids, have kids. If you don’t, don’t. But what I find wild is how hard childfree ppl are judged and how often the default is to view them/us as selfish when there are NO non selfish reason to have a kid 😂
In the same boat as you.
Even if life were easy, it is still a selfish thing to choose. Once you have them though…..good parents know it is the most selfless role you will ever have. I am childfree by choice and the latter is the reason why. I am not willing to put in the effort and one could argue not having children is also selfish but whatever. No harm no foul
This is so interesting. I come from a culture where kids are « gift » to the community. And there, not having a kid is deemed selfish. « How dare you deprive the community from a beautiful soul ? » « how dare you deny the right to a new soul to experience life? ». A lot of women who don’t want kids end up having kids to help out other people in the community.
And I feel like if there is pressure on women to have kids, lately I have also noticed the child free people running wild in the us, guilt tripping mothers, even cutting off relationships with parents, making the lives of children miserable by not tolerating them anywhere. It is really sad
I don’t think there’s a universal right or wrong answer. I just wish we would all have the freedom to do what matters for us without being judged like you said.
@user-po9ne6tx1c Yeah, humans are wired for survival no matter what and no matter the circumstances.
As the very anxious mother of an 18 month old thank you so much for this, this is so timely.
As you both were talking about climate grief and that it is a stage that people experience but don't stay in, I was reminded of Michael Dowd's Post Doom talks. He's on RUclips.
I am well past the age to have children. I never did have a child and didn't want to. Of the six children my mother brought into the world, there is only one who had a child... one child. I find this strange, but I'm glad of it. We are in such intense times.
I love that Emma Pattee is wise enough not to want to judge others for their choices.
Chelsea, your discussions are a delight and informative. Through you, I come to better understand a younger generation. Thank you for this!
RIP Michael Dowd. He has brought a lot of comfort and clarity to us.
Thank you so much for talking about the isolating impacts of merely understanding the climate crisis. The social gas lighting around this reality makes the situation seem more hopeless. But you're correct that the intense grief is very much a stage. I'm well into the acceptance stage at this point and won't have children since they would just be additional victims.
I feel exactly the same. I think we are at an inflection point where the distraction is in our doorstep and children won’t have much to look forward to. Gen Z mental health issues already show that is a big issue
Another way I think about having children as an emotional decision is that it's a decision I made despite knowing every reason not to. I could rattle off a list of reasons not to, BUT in my heart I knew that I wanted a child. So did my spouse. Now we have a wonderful, young human in our lives that we can teach about the environment, nature, consumerism, and being kind to one another. That human goes to school and re-teaches us how to learn and grow as people even though it's hard. Being a parent has made me a kinder, fiercer, stronger, person that has never been more committed to the future of this planet.
In the early years of having a baby, yeah that climate anxiety was real and piling on top of every other work and society related stress I had. But nowadays, its easier (not EASY by any means) for me to have hope for the future despite every shitty thing capitalism is doing because I have practice at it. Yes "everything is terrible" BUT more people now more than ever know the problems and are fighting to implement the solutions. I have built up strength and endurance and grit to face the facts. Those facts contain bad things but they also contain good things that will get stamped out if we don't give them equal air time. I wouldn't have been able to do that before I had my child.
This was such a great listen! I really loved the reframing of the decision to have or not have a child as an emotional one and naming that people shouldn’t have to explain why they did or didn’t have a kid. I also just one day decided I desperately wanted a child and so I had one. I recognize that it’s a selfish decision bc my kid can’t decide that they didn’t want to be born… but what i have control over is how I’m raising them and my commitment to be there for them no matter what and without an expiration date.
I think we need more resources for parents so kids can have good lives - free childcare, free healthcare, good jobs w work live balance - and I think that if parents weren’t drowning they wouldn’t need to work as hard and use consumerism as the only source of joy. I think if we helped families thrive- they would be happier and less consumerist as a result.
A couple things that I think are worth noting - often the discourse around how people shouldn’t have children is rooted in eugenics and racism. Many people have ideas around who isn’t a worthy parent or who is having “too many kids” and lo and behold they all happen to be POC and historically oppressed ppl.
The other thing is that abortion justice and climate Justice are interconnected bc if someone doesn’t want to bring children into the world bc of the climate crisis- or they want to parent fewer children, they should be able to freely access contraceptive care and abortion care.
I loved this conversation! Very interesting takes on the topic of deciding whether to have kids or not
As someone who experienced a pregnancy loss late last year, there is nothing more that I could ever want at the moment than a healthy child.
I hope that your wish comes true one day 🍀🍀🍀🍀🍀 And please accept my condolences
Im sorry for your loss. I wish you baby dust!!! ❤
Wishing you the very best on your journey. Remember, the vast majority of women go on to have healthy pregnancies after miscarriage.
I am very sorry for your loss. My first pregnancy ended in a miscarriage too. I had a healthy pregnancy afterwards and my little girl is now almost 5.
I feel you. I'm TTC right now, and it's rough. Good luck!
Flying economy is such a weird thing to worry about. Billionaires couldn’t give two shits flying private or sailing on mega yachts.
Yes, but it's one thing to fly once in a while for vacation or to visit family, vs traveling weekly or daily like a lot of "business professionals" do. It's pretty shocking how many people fly regularly for work or even commute to work by air.
At 21 minutes: yes, allowing that flexibility in the identity of a person where we mostly make the better choice (eat plants, walk/public transport/fly less, [reduce/refuse/(re-/up-)cycle) is much more executable/practical for the regular person, who might otherwise have to think that they messed up because they didn't bring their re-usable bag to the grocery store a few times. I think more can be done at the systems and societal/social engineering level to nudge individuals towards environmentally-friendly habits.
Don’t bet another person’s life on hope.
59:11 We talk a lot about consumption as a reason for where we are now, but consumption is only a symptom. We must be more openly anticapitalists in our discourse and start talking more about other ways forward.
Did you know that capitalism takes people out of poverty and as people move out of poverty they become more concerned about the environment? They then initiate government policies to improve the environment. Please use your head!
To be specific I think you it’s in excess of consumption. Consumption is a given, the question is how much more then needed… also, anti capitalistic is not what you think is the problem. It’s most likely anti large corporations to the point that they become a monopoly in a given industry, mom and pop stores is capitalism.
Anything in the excess between capitalism or socialism gives too much power either to the rich or the government (in order to regulate a socialistic government).
Yeah anticapitalist, that’s the solution. Do you have any idea how many people are moving out of poverty on a daily basis bc of capitalism. The UN estimates 100,000/day. When countries get wealthy they worry about the environment. Poor countries don’t bc they can’t. They have more pressing needs like surviving and feeding themselves. How about the slash and burn going on in the Amazon. When you don’t have money you don’t have access to cheap easy energy. Why was the US able to meet the objectives in the Paris Accord. Natural Gas! Innovation. Capitalism!!!
@@Rob-me8vp imagine paying lip service to the environment while simping for fossil fuels 🤣
@@gabrielgonzalez6456 the rampant excesses of capitalism aren't a perversion of the system, they're the system working as intended. It's *supposed* to create monopolies and concentrate the wealth into the hands of the few, by selling us things we don't need, and commodifying things that used to be free so they can be sold back to us.
“We’ve seen the worst of humans and we survived” ok but who are you to willingly put that trauma on someone? What if they didn’t want to go through trauma in the first place? You can’t guarantee “survival” is enough for a person
This 100%, surviving is not thriving. I cannot imagine bringing a being that I love into a world which has so much cruelty and hatred and downright suffering. Climate change is largely a consequence of greed and overconsumption. It’s so sad.
Yeah, that point as a point of hope for her hit me as really sad
I think it's perfectly justified for people not to want kids because of the climate crisis. Im sure there were plenty of people that didn't want kids during World Wars, and no one judged them for it. They call it a climate CRISIS for a reason. Instead of spending all my time and money on a single child, I'd rather dedicate my resources to actually doing something productive politically. I simply wouldn't have the time otherwise. (Not my only reason for not wanting kids, btw). However, i dont think it's unethical to have a kid during this time. It's really an individual choice, and no one should be judged for that choice. We still need a new generation of kids who are climate conscious
Your "small daily actions" are a vote you accomplish through giving or not giving money to an industry. Just as important as getting in touch with the government if not more. Sure the responsibility should be on the government and companies but when you look back most changes happened at that level because people started putting their money where their mouths were (the ones that can afford)
I would imagine that in the current state of the world bringing up a compassionate and educated child can do more good than harm. We need more good people who can do important work. This is one way to care for the future.
Ah, yes. The messiah angle.
@@lemondroprecipe Good person != messiah. Who needs a messiah when you have a society of decent people.
Unless you think all human consciousness should be eradicated, I think you’d agree that raiding educated & compassionate problem-solving children is superior to raising bitter, uneducated nihilists, right?
The odds that any person's child will "do more harm than good" are very, very low. Consider the carbon footprint of a person born in USA. @@SpringSpark
@@lemondroprecipe That's in the power of the parents. Emphasis on conscious, educated people.
As a person with family member with a chronic illness I feel it will be impossible for me to make space and have energy for a in addition to just doing life.
The primary reason, I am not having any kid/kids ever is because of the fact that childbirth is absolutely horrific and I am terrified of childbirth.
If the Artificial Womb Technology becomes an accessible reality, that can allow women to have kid/kids without the need to go pregnant and give birth themselves, then I will consider having kids, otherwise no chance .
It really is not that bad. I am pregnant with my third, kinda looking forward to it. I won't say it's magical but it's definitely incredible
I had an abortion in October 2022. In October 2023, I closed on my first home. I don't believe I could have done it had I not gotten an abortion. I feel blessed every single day. I don't ever want children. I prefer my freedom and my money. I don't want added stress or chaos in my life. I enjoy quiet time, and I don't want to be a lifelong servant in my personal time.
Thanks for sharing your abortion story. Abortion access is amazing 💗
You value materials and the illusion of freedom. Material fades. And the freedom you enjoy isn’t real. We are all servants to something. You chose money. Others choose living beings. One is clearly morally better than the other. Serving children.
@@AnaRodriguez-wn8qqThank you, dear. I agree abortion access is fundamental and will always be something I'd fight for. I am glad I was able to do a medical (plan C) abortion from the comfort of my own home, no different than simply starting my period. I was back in the gym 3 days later. I thank God and my abortion provider every single day for giving me a chance at the life I always dreamed of. I wake up every day grateful. ❤❤❤
@@Mustaches4017 Wow! What a hypocrite! I can say 100% you are not a mother. @TxHoneyBee just ignore this stupidity. I am a mother of two beautiful, wonderful children who I love more than the entire world. Choosing to not have children is completely okay and has nothing to do with your morals.
I don't have the words to explain how much i needed this video. I am crying while I watch this, thank you
Omg same! It's so freeing and like a breath of fresh air amongst doom and gloom. I also can't even begin to describe what a lovely guest Chelsea has brought! Thank you girls 💕💕
Loved this conversation, very relatable as a new mom! Thank you!
As a minimalist, the reason why I became one and also moved to the country was to lessen my footprint.
But I was shocked at how little anyone in the country cares. The farms are being sold daily and no one bats an eye.
Thisbwas a very insightful podcast ladies i love that you explore interests that you able to connect to others issues at hand
Fascinating conversation, great points, thank you!
Love it! I grapple with the issues of having children in light of the climate cost. Minor note for Emma about her audio: your microphone is a “side address” microphone and not a “top address” microphone, so it’s designed to have you talk into the side (the logo) and not the top.
I loved this episode! So insightful! Thanks for diving into these topics. ❤
This discussion has been great, vulnerable and philosophical. If this is any indication as to the tone of the rest of the videos this season will be, I’m very excited.
I haven't watched a single second of this episode yet, nonetheless, thank you so much for even the title. By that alone, I already know it'll be worth the listen.
Consumption fuels the economy and keeps people working. If we just shop at thrift stores, a lot more people will be unemployed. How do we solve/balance that problem?
We need to find a way to fund important work for human and ecological benefit, rather than leave sustenance to the whims of consumer sentiment. One existing proposal, the concept of a new (Green) New Deal/ new Works Progress Administration, has a lot of potential to refocus human efforts toward necessary adaptation to a changing climate, combat against carbon pollution, improvements toward public spaces & transit, etc.
We are highly intelligent beings. We need problems bc it would make us stupid. 🤔
I'm staunchly childfree but tried to listen with an open mind. I was stunned to hear about these mothers who had a child and only AFTER that point did they wonder what kind of world that child would inherit, when the decision to create a sentient human life was already irreversible. I'm glad they could find a supportive community to work out their grief, but it's another piece of evidence in favor of the argument that chilfree people actually give our decision way more thought than parents often do. Let's not even get started on the Thai food analogy.
Also as this video is more about children, would love a video with ClimateAdam! He is such a good communicator on the topic! We focus so much on climate change which is great but would also love more attention towards link between our financial habits and pollution and plant/animal species extinction as those things are just as severe as climate change and they are part of the feedback loop that contribute to each other
This was a great interview! I will keep an eye out for Emma's book. It sounded really interesting!
I can't fully articulate all my thoughts but I appreciate this video so much!!!
This was amazing, thank you so much for making it! Thanks for covering climate change when people normally separate it from their financial lives!
Notice that you really can't win, especially as a woman: if you don't have children, people will call that selfish, and if you do, people will also call that selfish. I think it's a great thing that people are actually treating this like a decision that has weight to it and aren't just having kids because that's "what you do", but I have also definitely noticed some worrying tendencies. If we're encouraging everyone who actually cares about preserving our world and making it a better place for present and future generations not to have kids, then it's only going to be people who don't give a damn about those things raising kids. And there's certainly a whole consumerist ecosystem (if you'll pardon the term) around having and raising kids which is extremely detrimental and which I think many people don't question. Which is not to say that only people with biological children can or should contribute to raising the next generation, but parents do have an outsize impact, I think that's pretty undeniable.
But at the same time, I've also noticed an attitude which feels like a particularly perverse version of "closing the loop" - in what I would call it's "I'm not personally contributing to the problem (or at least I feel like I'm not) so it's not my responsibility to try to find solutions" variant, on the part of some childfree climate doomers. It's the idea that, sure, there isn't going to be a future for the next generation, but I did my part by not contributing to the existence of that generation, so that's depressing but ultimately not my problem, not that I could do anything about it anyway.
I swear I have read Emma's work in an Alaska magazine or paper recently... I was forwarded an artiv le from a friend when explaining our graphic novel and it clicked big time. Great episode.
Cheers
Found It!
static1.squarespace.com/static/595ab9e9579fb352b641dcc5/t/64ee37b0abb4e071e2cd39a3/1693333424226/AQR_+No+More+Bodies+of+Water.pdf
Her point about the kids who suffer most being in other countries was entirely incoherent. I truly don’t know what she was arguing.
I do believe those in countries with less resources will suffer sooner. But the climate is global and the ability of governments to bring aide and buffer climate change will diminish over time as disasters become more and more frequent, intense, and pervasive.
Her kids are not free of consequences and I don’t know where she is getting this false sense of confidence
That point came off as very strange to me too. It seems the crux of the argument in the title was that the only people who need to seriously consider the decision to have children are the ones already in climate-ravaged countries? Yikes.
Can we have her back for the climate conversation wrt consumerism?
Amazing conversation
I love this topic! I wrote my master thesis in political philosophy about the morality of personal choices when it comes to climate change and I got a LOT of heat from my philosophy professors for the sheer idea that personal choices might actually be irrelevant form a responsibility perspective. But it just makes sense (and so did my argument haha).
Thanks!
Climate change has been a growing issue for centuries really, having kids is not a part of that conversation. People don't need to decide to have kids based on centuries of bad decisions of politicians past. Financial issues is truly the culprit here. Have children if you want. Don't have children if you don't want. Teach kids financial literacy and good consumer habits of avoiding waste and investing in experiences and family/friendships. If the focus is on experience and family/friends/relationships then there is less emphasis on "what you have and can get".
Thanks for the podcast. With my partner and both being 27, this is something we think about. Also from the pacific northwest, shout out :)
For me and us, environmental impact is a consideration, but not a top one or two reasons to have a child or not. I agree about the guests argument on personal choices. It's good to know that the major 2017 has that flaw and that is the US continues on it's green energy path, that will be significantly lower.
I think that is a nice nuanced take on consumerism. It's true that there isn't an end game with consumerism. I like the idea of critically thinking about your consumption and practicing delayed gratification.
Yeah the American River of Consumption is a torrential one. I think once it becomes a tranquil stream, things will calm down in the country. Even consuming information like being chronically online, it adds to the river’s gallon per second.
00:55 🚼 Chelsea explains her choice to be childfree and discusses the environmental context of having children, especially in wealthy Western communities.
02:02 🌍 Our consumer choices, including major life decisions like where we live and the kind of families we have, are influenced by and impact the ongoing climate crisis.
03:42 🎙 Climate journalist Emma Pattee explains her work and ethical decision to focus solely on climate change topics in her writing.
05:18 🔄 There's a societal blind spot towards consumption habits, even among eco-conscious individuals, indicating a need for broader awareness and action beyond personal lifestyle choices.
08:30 📚 Emma Pattee discusses her novel, inspired by climate change, aiming to engage with the topic in an entertaining and accessible way to combat climate apathy.
10:05 🌟 Emma's novel explores the dilemma of bringing a child into a frightening world and finding resolution in loving deeply amidst chaos.
12:23 💡 Emma discusses the contagious aspect of climate change awareness and the importance of humility in discussing personal choices and activism.
14:22 🔍 Chelsea and Emma explore the balance between encouraging personal choices and political engagement, emphasizing the importance of community action over individual lifestyle changes.
19:20 🔄 They discuss the shift towards nuanced online identities, where flexibility and diversity in lifestyle choices foster accessibility and inclusivity in sustainability efforts.
21:40 🌍 Climate activism is shifting towards systemic challenges rather than solely focusing on personal responsibility.
23:32 🛍 Perception towards partnering with fast fashion companies is changing, with many creators avoiding such collaborations due to PR concerns.
24:40 🤔 People often shut down or feel nihilistic about climate change, viewing it as overwhelming and leading to a sense of giving up.
29:41 🌱 Climate despair is a common phase people move through, but they often find hope, community, or shift their work towards climate-focused activities.
32:13 💬 Choosing not to have children for climate reasons can lead to slippery slopes into anti-natalism, but acknowledging the emotional aspect of the decision is important.
33:37 🔍 The decision to have children involves rationalizing emotional desires, but it's essential to consider the broader impact, both ecologically and socially.
38:39 ♻ Teaching sustainability to children from a young age can embed eco-conscious behaviors, but it's challenging to balance personal choices with societal norms and resources.
I do wish people would stop co-opting the climate crisis to justify eco-fascist ideals. You can just choose to be child-free! I study pollution and a lot of the people focused on climate (scientists, journalists, lawyers, activitists, etc) have children like the guest here
omygosh screaming at the Wheezy waiter reference. so much love for both of your channels..
I just want to express my appreciation for your videos. As a person, I'm fascinated with the ideas that you communicate and develop. As a non-native speaker, I am amazed at the fluency of your speech and the expressions that you use. For me, you are a valuable source of inspiration in many ways.
I took old sheets and used them to create reusable wrapping paper and bought chalk board eraser tags, 10 cents for 6 at a store closeout. I made enough to wrap 7 people worth of gifts (many of which were secondhand). Now my mom wants me to make her some paper.😂 Never thought I'd see the day. Didn't do it to "save the planet"....I just thought wrapping paper was too expensive.😂
🫰🫰🫰🫰 great convo!
Hey there, So are you saying, why people gotta b all or nothing. There's such a thing as balance. I try most of the time to be conscious of my choices. Will I ever be vegan, nope, cause I love bacon. Am I cutting back on meats and eating more smaller bits of meat and stir frying more.....yeah. I love minimalism, but my minimalism is not one pair of drawers and a shirt. My minimalism is getting rid of things that clutter my life and make me have to manage more stuff. I know people dont have and have been able to make myself donate by sending my donations to my neighborhood resource center. I know people need my things more than I do. I also really think when I buy things "is this consumable". I have chronic illnesses, there is just some times I can not muster the energy to wash a bunch of dishes, so carry out and eating off paper plates is what is going to happen. I do keep sustainability and ecological issues on my mind, but balance it with where I am mentally and physically at the moment.
🧍♂: me 23 years after being born wishing that i wasnt born bc i did not ask for this. i do not want to work till i die and i dont have any passions
The idea that choosing to have kids is comparable to knowing you want to order Thai food came off really selfish. What about what that child will be faced with once having to exist in this world? Maybe give it a second thought before eating I want it so I should do it
I agree about @33:19, I choose not to have children for climate reasons but I believe all the chindren born into this world are our collective responsibility- along with the plants & the animals & our shared earth
Interesting talk about the "closing the loop" concept. I wonder if you could say people who have kids are "closing the loop"? They believe they have contributed in some positive way on the world or future because having kids is perceived as hopeful.
"we're all just animals in target, and there are so many shiny things" sooo true
cant wait to read the novel... TFD book club book perhaps?
i still think it's worth it to try our very best with every purchase we can. the only thing the US government cares about is money, so every time we spend- we are literally voting with our dollar for the future we want. individual choices to reduce meat consumption DOES make a big difference. plus, due to supply and demand, more people buying eco friendly products, encourages more companies to switch to more eco friendly products- as we've seen happen ALOT in the past few years. these companies haven't just offered healthier products out of the goodness of their hearts, it's because it's what the consumers have demanded. every choice is a meaningful one. OF COURSE the biggest change will come with legislation and taking down the fossil fuel and animal ag industries, but individual choices do matter.
The Rust Belt-- if you're an American worried about climate change affecting your kids or about cost of living, consider living in the Rust Belt. Climate scientists have predicted that geographically the Rust Belt will weather climate change the best and while I'm sure when people catch on to that it will become more unaffordable here, right now the cost of living is low. You can get a nice house for $50K in some towns! Check out Pittsburgh if you like cities.
I think we should pay women for pregnancy, childbirth and childcare. It's clear at this point that children are good for the economy. And labor is literally called labor already, it's life threatening and difficult. And so many working women have made it very clear this is partly just a financial decision, they cannot afford to stop working, cannot afford to raise a kid. It is absurd we pay bankers billions and mothers nothing. As long as this work is not paid, society will continue to degrade it and call it 'women's work' and treat it as less important that waged labor. The government can send direct payments to mothers, and pre nups can also directly contract for payments (some rich are already kinda doing this in the form of 'push presents'). We need to pay mothers!
Here is what's crazy about my old neighborhood: There wasn't one second hand shop. No Salvation Army or Goodwill. I lived in a very poor neighborhood. As soon as I moved to a wealthier neighborhood, I saw tons of these shops. I had to ask myself why. I came to two conclusions: 1. Maybe everyone was poor in my old neighborhood because they over consumed or 2. In order to have secondhand, there needs to be people donating and replacing. Poor people are less likely to donate because they can't easily replace items. So Seconds shops go out of business. Plus finding things in your size. This is why consumerism continues. The big companies can afford to sell to poor people, and poor people end up only accessing that.
Would you make a video about finances in Pamela Adlon's tv show Better Things?
Can't see how humanity can possibly defy the climate crisis when inequality and poverty are unsolvable. While some choose not to have kids for environmental reasons, others use rivers as landfills; while on one, say, Maldives island people enjoy 5 star hotels, an adjacent one is used as a dumpster. I genuinely don't believe the choice of being child-free would become a solution of climate problems. Economic or psychological at a personal level - yes, in a way.
After this conversation I'm even more convinced that having children in this age is ethically wrong.
Same. I do not want to be part of her community lol
I accidentally read the title at first as Chickens
"But we've seen the worst of humans, and we survived." And surviving that comes with its own challenges and trauma. To me, the mother's response shows a lack of awareness of the effects that trauma has on survivors.
And don't get me started on parents wanting grandchildren or in some cases, feeling entitled to them. 😬
I also think it's important to consider where the "desperate want/desire" to have kids comes from. Is it ENTIRELY a biological function women feel naturally, or is it possible that it ALSO comes from being conditioned very early on to believe that we're "supposed" to be mothers? Girls are given baby dolls to care for at very young ages. I was told, even as a young girl, that I'd be a great mother. It seems impossible that this conditioning has zero effect on women's inclinations to become mothers.
Prior to having children, I also believed a lot of the talk on conditioning children toward certain gendered interests, but now that I have a boy and a girl I can see very clearly that, for many children, these desires really are innate. I had my boy first, and no “girl” toys to speak of when my daughter came around. Somehow, she has always loved babies. She smiles and coos at them, plays peekaboo, gets excited to see them, and treats stuffed animals as if they are her babies and she is their mom. My son didn’t even notice babies until he was around 6. The only thing I can assume is that she really does have some innate interest in caretaking/mothering. My son came out of the womb fascinated by how things work-taking toys apart and putting them back together. My daughter has never taken to playing that way with him. I’m not saying this applies to every child, but don’t count it entirely as cultural programming.
I'm sure social conditioning is a factor, but as someone who has two kids let me tell you that biological urge can get STRONG. My husband & I were always on the same page about eventually wanting kids, but when we settled down together and could live stable off his income alone I had the urge, not even necessarily a want, to have a baby. So much so that I came to hate my birth control and was disappointed when I'd get my period, like a part of me hoped the period wouldnt come in spite of the birth control(even though that sounds looney its true). Then I actually did get pregnant not long after stopping birth control and was downright giddy. I chalk it up to nature be nature
I would argue that it is entirely down to status anxiety. This "biological clock" has never been backed up with science. We have a drive for sex, which, without intervention, often leads to procreation. Once you accept the basic fact that we are past peak water, you can only see reproduction is an entirely selfish act. Ask anyone why they want/wanted to have children. There is no such thing as an unselfish reason. There would be nothing wrong with that if we lived in a just and sustainable world.
Being also Russian, I know what this girl went through. My family was flat out poor until I've started working. Yes, I am traumatized as hell. But I also was able to immigrate to Europe, and man, I'm glad I got to see the world. Think about the child's risk and reward. It's a great risk, but if you know you can put your child for success, that's a potentially huge reward at stake. It's a gamble that should be taken very seriously, but it may be worth it.
@@teensymarieyes, I think the biological urge is sex, the desire for a kids, comes from social pressure/expectation/status as you say
Thank you for mentioning the children in Gaza! As a relatively new mom I felt a major shift in caring about the wellbeing of all children after having my own. This has been magnified tenfold after seeing the horrific impact on children there. I also have an environmental background and have a job in the field and so I grappled for years with anxiety about what kind of life my child will have. I still worry about a million things when it comes to him but I have hope. I am responsible for creating a good life for him and that includes my actions to change our personal culture around consumption and to advocate for collective change in our political, economic, and social circumstances that are barriers to a more sustainable world. I know this channel is not geared towards moms as much but this episode really resonated with me. Thank you!
Woohoo! A fellow Pacific Northwestern!
I think both political action *and* personal choices are important. Just because it's ultimately the responsibility of cooperations and policies, doesn't mean we should all continue to do things like shop fast fashion.
I have a whole list of reasons why I don't want a kid, both for personal and societal reasons lol.
I agree. I think it’s good practice to live in alignment with our morals rather than apathy ❤
I was listening to this podcast through Apple Podcasts, and a crypto ad randomly came on in the middle of Chelsea's sentence (without any preface) around the 17 minute mark?? I know TFD stance on crypto, so I don't see how this is possible.
Podcasters aren't able to tell what specific ads are getting dynamically inserted into their shows. They can ban certain categories, but there's a problem right now where ad companies are purposefully miscategorizing their ads so that they run even if a person has banned that category from appearing on their show. The best defense is to screen record the ad while it's running and share it with the podcaster so they can take additional steps if possible. Another user may have another ad, but yours should stay the same because they're attached to the downloaded file. This was just covered on a podcast called The Feed by Libsyn, if you're curious to hear a take from people inside the podcast industry. It is a big source of frustration for podcasters. FWIW, I don't get outside ads on TFC when listening on Spotify, so not sure what could be going on with Apple.
I think buying things only from your own country and maximum the neighboring country... You dont need fruit flown in from another continent daily! You dont need tshirts made on another continent! With parts all made in different countries flown aroya million places befoyyou even get it.
I feel like she’s missing the point? Childfree people aren’t having kids because of climate reasons; meaning it’s extremely selfish and cruel to have kids just because you feel like it even though the affect of doing so is literally forcing your child to be born into and live in a climate crisis. I’m not trying to prevent the climate crisis. It’s out of my control. The crisis is happening regardless of what I do. But the least I can do is not force future generations to live through it.
"We're just animals in a Target, and everything is SO shiny."
I feel very seen.
15:58 - "...itches the same scratch in your brain..." C. Fagan, 2024. 😁
I almost went away, hopefully at 19:00 personal responsibility is discussed... I don't believe at all on personal responsibility now about climate (peeing in the shower won't stop climate change). it has to come from politics first, so we are screwed.
you want politicians to tell you what you can't do and sanctioning you?
what drives climate change is based on economy's principle of supply and demand, it's you as a consumer who is voting with your dollar, it's not politicians nor corporations forcing you to use things that impact the climate, it's you who chooses to use them
@@FruityHachi Yes I do want the government telling everyone what the can and can't do when it comes to things that are going to make the planet uninhabitable. The government does all kinds of things that influence spending decisions that conservatives and libertarians never complain about, but start talking about making more efficient lightbulbs and toilets and people loose their goddamn minds. Fact, many German cities will automatically send you a ticket in the mail if you cross their border with a car that doesn't meet their fuel efficiency standards. It doesn't stop people from driving gas guzzlers, but it is a strong incentive to NOT DO IT which will drive consumer behavior toward more fuel efficient cars, and other forms of transportation. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. We decide on standards for all kinds of things. This should be no different.
@@FruityHachiNot me, but major company who are crashing our world. If you still have the illusion you can do anything relevant by your personal action, good for you, I just pass this point.
The issue is directly related to consumerism which is in the hand of corporations . We through policy need to regulate corporations. The issue is that these corporations pay the politicians off, and so this shame and guilt is passed on to us individuals. When corporations spend millions on marketing and figuring out how to get people to buy, we are screwed. Get rid of predatory advertising. Get rid of influencers on tik tok and insta. That will solve half the issue
❤
Even if world was fine it would still be wrong to have kids
Chelsea you are talking about NYC being climate aligned seems to be based only public transport. That city grows nothing. All the food and goods have been brought onto that island. It’s also one of centers of consumption in the world. There are so many aspects of this beyond public transport which is definitely good.
Per populus urban communities normally have a much less significant environmental impact
I heard something “cities are feed lots for people” and that is an interesting thing to chew on
As the prairie grandmothers said: more flies with honey than vinegar. Or the updated: create something that is irresistable to people and will magnetize them, rather than dumping our energies into further polarizing and ineffectual shaming and blaming.
Thanks Emma for mentioning the situation in Gaza. I like this channel but sometimes it feels too much as if the conversations and choice of topics are happening in a totally different world and mentioning Gaza disrupted that now for me.
The convo around having children is 30 mins in.
Thank you for your service.
How all this intersects with religion would make for an interesting topic.
All I care about is climate change. And having a family.
I was pretty content with my child free plan, but then I realized the birth rates of the Trumpers and realized if I want the world to be a better place, I have to make sure that the next generation has some sane people too.
The environmental impact of high birth rates from those who do not believe in climate change outweigh the environmental impact of raising environmentally conscious human beings. Yes I know it's not a one-to-one and you're not guaranteed a child who things like you, but the odds are higher and I want to make sure they're still people in the next generation who believe in the good in humanity. That said, I only have one child now. We are looking to adop another one, but that process process is so incredibly cost prohibited for the average person. In the meantime, we're just fostering.
For the question of a way to invest in a climate-friendly way, the RUclips Channel ClimateTown did a good segment on this at the end of their "Your Food is Lying to You" video (starting at 24:46 of the video) where they talked about investiging in teh Climate Collective, an investment firm that divests from oil and other companies causing the climate crisis and invests in only climate-friendly companies! 🌎😍
For the first time, I'm noping out on a video on this channel due to bourgeois nonsense. Y'all can wring your hands over your inability to resist buying unnecessary plane tickets on your own.
I think this was a really nuanced discussion until you arbitrarily decided that anyone who is childfree due to the climate crisis must be rationalizing after the fact to explain an existing decision. Sure Jan. I will agree that people who really want kids and are climate aware are not going to let that stop them for understandable reasons, but saying that the opposite must therefore be true is a false equivalence. Just because it isn't your viewpoint doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Watching almost to the end and this interview has gotten even worse. I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the climate change perspective on being childfree... almost like you're not intellectually engaging with them (because oh right that's what the guest says she doesn't do). Wish I could feel 'smug' about giving up something that I might actually want but can't fathom choosing (not due to the carbon footprint of a potential child but due to the poor life they may lead being brought into this world). It was interesting to hear your particular viewpoints, and I really wish you had left it there and not tried to psychologize another viewpoint that you clearly don't understand or empathize with
I don't know, when a journalist talks about how to raise climate awareness among the wealthy people of the East Coast effectively, how not to scare them and how not let them to short circuit the feeling, well, to me it's like when a journalist is celebrating on Titanic that he effectively communicated the effects of the iceberg impact to the wealthy people of the lobby bar. This is just so detached from reality. Even if you beat up people one by one while yelling "wake you up, wake you up", that probably would be way too little and way too late.
The perspective makes sense…PNW
When was the world not broken?
That is why anti-natalism was always the right choice
@@KateeAngel feeling Rust Cohle vibes here.