A few weeks ago I was at a Chic Fil A establishment. And a woman and a group of younger highschool girls were sitting next to me discussing Jesus and prayer. This woman appeared to be their spiritual mentor. I overheard her at one point telling these girls 'it doesn't matter how I fail my salvation is ensured'. I about facepalmed because she entirely missed the point of the Gospel. It's to repent and become transformed. The 'faith alone' idea is suffocating the minds of people where they can be lazy Christians because they always can say sorry later and be sure they are saved. Even though our salvation should be worked out through fear in trembling.
@@untoages For sure! I will. 🙏 It's hard to be upset with this woman because she very likely grew up with these Protestant doctrines its a consequence of Rome and the Western Church.
@@untoages I'm a Latter-Day Saint attending divine liturgy this morning with my Father. Can you pray for me? I'm going through alot right now and thinking about leaving the LDS church.
I might be wrong but I would not be surprised if that belief came out of Protestant preachers as a marketing move to lure more people in their church. If in the town there were two churches, one promising "eternal salvation", while other did not... guess who would have had better attendance, resulting in more $$$.
I'm coming from a protestant background while listening to this video, but I thank you for emphasizing James 2 in this. I always feel uncertain on whether or not I am good with God regarding salvation and if I'm under Christ sometimes. I've recently come back to the faith from a decade of atheism. But the one thing I know for certain is that even if I'm assured of my eternal salvation, I want to do good works for God and his son out of gratitude. I'm starting to read the New Testament for the first time by myself and am trying to figure it out. Please pray that I stay on the right track with God.
Also according to Martin Luther John Calvin, John MacArthur, John Piper, RC Sproul, Charles Hodge and others in the reformation tradition teach that the father damned the son . Which is blasphemous
Very important point! It’s a severing of Orthodox Trinitarian theology, which can be dangerously heretical. This is what the first few ecumenical councils were about, after all.
German higher criticism turned the both/and mysteries of the faith into dialectical either/or absolutes. It turned the faith into a rational mental acceptance and exercise.
I am Orthodox from atheist, Protestants often say Sola scriptura, but in reality they pick and choose.. The Bible says, yes you cannot be saved by your works, salvation is by grace, yet also The Bible in it's entirety, says that we must show our faith, The least we can do is symbolically try , try to love each other And because we can't even do that, let's at least fast, receive communion and confess, and may our Lord shows mercy on our foul souls
Glory to God! I think it’s this superficial Christianity that a lot of people today reject. When I speak to my atheist and agnostic friends, they respect Orthodoxy a lot more because it requires consistency in all areas of life - and because we fall short, it also requires humility. So you’re right, we have to try even though we fail. I think that actually draws some to the Church.
Inquiring Protestant here: are you saying that Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to save? If I'm completely misunderstanding, please show grace, but that is what it sounds like you're saying. I am not disagreeing with the "faith without works is dead passage." I do absolutely believe that a true Christian will do those works because they have been truly changed and they are "evidence" (as it were) of that change, but to say that our salvation also depends on our works seems blasphemous and makes null and void Jesus' sacrifice. Which as I understand it was part of what Martin Luther was protesting in the reformation? What do you do with the passage where Jesus says that "no one can snatch [His sheep] out of My hand" (John 10:28)?
I appreciate the question and I can tell that it’s coming from a good place. We absolutely believe that Jesus’s crucifixion is salvific, but we also believe that we must, as Jesus says, take up our own cross. We must enter in and participate in Christ’s suffering and endure to the end. There’s a very real sense of participational, incarnational theology in Orthodoxy. The Cross is also not a blood sacrifice atonement to us as Orthodox, rather, we see it as a rescue mission. A conquering of death itself - such a thing that only God can do. On Holy Saturday, we commemorate Christ’s descent into Hades and saving of those therein. So there’s a lot more to what’s happening on the Cross, and some of it may be foreign to you (depending on what background you’re coming from). If I may, I’d recommend another video to you. There’s a channel called Gospel Simplicity. While he himself is currently Protestant, he’s done some great interviews with many Orthodox people, clergy and laity alike. I’d recommend his interview with Dr. Eugenia Constantinou on the crucifixion. Hope this helps!
@@untoages thank you for your understanding and answer; I am only slightly familiar with the descent into Hades doctrine. It is mostly foreign to me although I had heard about it before but only in a theoretical "this might be what this passage is talking about" sense 🤷🏻♀️. Thank you for the advice and direction; I will keep investigating.
@@sarahlarson8656 Absolutely. Keep seeking and be patient! These things take time, it took me a couple of years before I came around. Also, I had to do a double-take on your profile - I have an Orthodox friend whose name is Sarah Larson too!
If you were to read the lives of the Orthodox Saints you would notice that they were not mercenaries. You will also notice that their spiritual teachings do not talk about works. They talk about cleansing of the nous. This is where our salvation lies. When we cleanse our nous (others call it theosis) we restore the relationship Adam and Eve had with God in the Garden of Eden.
What about : Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
The Greek word for faith comes from Strongs 1651, which suggests evidence or works. It is also tied to Strongs 1650, which is conviction. Saving faith, or conviction from God, will result in one desiring to do good works. The works themselves does not save you, for the works themselves falls into the category of rewards. But by doing the works one desires to do, it indicates to another person observing, this person has already been justified. So we are saved by faith alone, not the works themselves. 1 Corinthians 3:15 says it all at the end of the day. Saving faith is enough, and will produce a desire for good works. The works themselves are only under the category of rewards, but not meritorious in any my way towards the initial point of salvation, this is why we have no room to boast.
@_catspajamas Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. We cannot see faith nor conviction inside a person. Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. Faith in Jesus one is justified.
@_catspajamas The truth sets you free. James was an apostle to the Jews, therefore he was writing to the Jews at this time. There was a separation between the wheat and tares going on at this time. He was getting on them to act out their new desires, and those who rejected Christ, would all the more be stirred to jealousy in hopes to save every last one of them before the destruction of the temple.
Interesting that Romans 918 says that it doesn’t matter what salvation carrot you choose to hop to in the end it’s God‘s will that chooses who is shown mercy and who is hardened faith works baptism, believing blah blah blah doesn’t mean a damn thing to your God, he decides
According to St. John of Damascus, it is customary for the scriptures to refer to God’s permission as His action. The passage in question is referencing the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart in Exodus. One passage in Exodus says that Pharaoh hardened his heart, another passage says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; both are talking about the same thing. God doesn’t force anyone’s will, the passages in Exodus and Romans are DESCRIPTIVE, not prescriptive. You malign God when you misunderstand the text, I would be careful with your words if I were you.
Dalex, That’s not what that verse says. It’s saying that God shows mercy or hardens whoever he wants and that outcome is determined by the choices the person with free will makes. After verses 19-21 point out that we have no right to question our creator, verse 22 continues the point of verse 18 by saying, “God, although willing to show wrath and to make His power known, bore in much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,” As St. John Chrysostom said in a homily of his on the matter: “Whence then are some vessels of wrath, but others of mercy? From their own free choice. And God, being exceedingly good, shows the same kindness to both.”
A few weeks ago I was at a Chic Fil A establishment. And a woman and a group of younger highschool girls were sitting next to me discussing Jesus and prayer. This woman appeared to be their spiritual mentor. I overheard her at one point telling these girls 'it doesn't matter how I fail my salvation is ensured'. I about facepalmed because she entirely missed the point of the Gospel. It's to repent and become transformed. The 'faith alone' idea is suffocating the minds of people where they can be lazy Christians because they always can say sorry later and be sure they are saved. Even though our salvation should be worked out through fear in trembling.
Wow that’s scary. But I know exactly what you’re talking about and I’ve met similar-minded people. Pray for them!
@@untoages For sure! I will. 🙏 It's hard to be upset with this woman because she very likely grew up with these Protestant doctrines its a consequence of Rome and the Western Church.
@@untoages I'm a Latter-Day Saint attending divine liturgy this morning with my Father. Can you pray for me? I'm going through alot right now and thinking about leaving the LDS church.
I might be wrong but I would not be surprised if that belief came out of Protestant preachers as a marketing move to lure more people in their church. If in the town there were two churches, one promising "eternal salvation", while other did not... guess who would have had better attendance, resulting in more $$$.
@@parker_chess May Lord be with you.! If you feel like sharing your impressions with us, by all means, you are welcome.
I'm coming from a protestant background while listening to this video, but I thank you for emphasizing James 2 in this.
I always feel uncertain on whether or not I am good with God regarding salvation and if I'm under Christ sometimes.
I've recently come back to the faith from a decade of atheism. But the one thing I know for certain is that even if I'm assured of my eternal salvation, I want to do good works for God and his son out of gratitude.
I'm starting to read the New Testament for the first time by myself and am trying to figure it out. Please pray that I stay on the right track with God.
Binging these in the Gym rn
Ha! Same!
I remember being a Calvinist thinking I was saved before repenting. Almost as if repentance was a throw in.
Even worse than sola fide is the doctrine of "once saved always saved" that seems very popular these days with Protestants.
Very true. It’s an extremely dangerous heresy because it completely removes praxis from the faith.
Also according to Martin Luther John Calvin, John MacArthur, John Piper, RC Sproul, Charles Hodge and others in the reformation tradition teach that the father damned the son . Which is blasphemous
Very important point! It’s a severing of Orthodox Trinitarian theology, which can be dangerously heretical. This is what the first few ecumenical councils were about, after all.
German higher criticism turned the both/and mysteries of the faith into dialectical either/or absolutes.
It turned the faith into a rational mental acceptance and exercise.
Also added that we are not the ones who determine if our faith is active. God is. More the reason for works.
I am Orthodox from atheist,
Protestants often say Sola scriptura, but in reality they pick and choose..
The Bible says, yes you cannot be saved by your works, salvation is by grace, yet also The Bible in it's entirety, says that we must show our faith,
The least we can do is symbolically try , try to love each other
And because we can't even do that, let's at least fast, receive communion and confess, and may our Lord shows mercy on our foul souls
Glory to God! I think it’s this superficial Christianity that a lot of people today reject. When I speak to my atheist and agnostic friends, they respect Orthodoxy a lot more because it requires consistency in all areas of life - and because we fall short, it also requires humility. So you’re right, we have to try even though we fail. I think that actually draws some to the Church.
Inquiring Protestant here: are you saying that Jesus' sacrifice is not enough to save? If I'm completely misunderstanding, please show grace, but that is what it sounds like you're saying. I am not disagreeing with the "faith without works is dead passage." I do absolutely believe that a true Christian will do those works because they have been truly changed and they are "evidence" (as it were) of that change, but to say that our salvation also depends on our works seems blasphemous and makes null and void Jesus' sacrifice. Which as I understand it was part of what Martin Luther was protesting in the reformation? What do you do with the passage where Jesus says that "no one can snatch [His sheep] out of My hand" (John 10:28)?
I appreciate the question and I can tell that it’s coming from a good place. We absolutely believe that Jesus’s crucifixion is salvific, but we also believe that we must, as Jesus says, take up our own cross. We must enter in and participate in Christ’s suffering and endure to the end. There’s a very real sense of participational, incarnational theology in Orthodoxy. The Cross is also not a blood sacrifice atonement to us as Orthodox, rather, we see it as a rescue mission. A conquering of death itself - such a thing that only God can do. On Holy Saturday, we commemorate Christ’s descent into Hades and saving of those therein. So there’s a lot more to what’s happening on the Cross, and some of it may be foreign to you (depending on what background you’re coming from). If I may, I’d recommend another video to you. There’s a channel called Gospel Simplicity. While he himself is currently Protestant, he’s done some great interviews with many Orthodox people, clergy and laity alike. I’d recommend his interview with Dr. Eugenia Constantinou on the crucifixion. Hope this helps!
@@untoages thank you for your understanding and answer; I am only slightly familiar with the descent into Hades doctrine. It is mostly foreign to me although I had heard about it before but only in a theoretical "this might be what this passage is talking about" sense 🤷🏻♀️. Thank you for the advice and direction; I will keep investigating.
@@sarahlarson8656 Absolutely. Keep seeking and be patient! These things take time, it took me a couple of years before I came around.
Also, I had to do a double-take on your profile - I have an Orthodox friend whose name is Sarah Larson too!
@@untoages 😂 that's hilarious. Apparently a very common name
If you were to read the lives of the Orthodox Saints you would notice that they were not mercenaries. You will also notice that their spiritual teachings do not talk about works. They talk about cleansing of the nous. This is where our salvation lies. When we cleanse our nous (others call it theosis) we restore the relationship Adam and Eve had with God in the Garden of Eden.
That involves works 😊
What about : Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast.
Day 125,395 of orthos and papists straw-manning Sola Fide
Sola Scriptura = Sola Fide’s evil twin
Lol
The Greek word for faith comes from Strongs 1651, which suggests evidence or works. It is also tied to Strongs 1650, which is conviction. Saving faith, or conviction from God, will result in one desiring to do good works. The works themselves does not save you, for the works themselves falls into the category of rewards. But by doing the works one desires to do, it indicates to another person observing, this person has already been justified. So we are saved by faith alone, not the works themselves. 1 Corinthians 3:15 says it all at the end of the day.
Saving faith is enough, and will produce a desire for good works. The works themselves are only under the category of rewards, but not meritorious in any my way towards the initial point of salvation, this is why we have no room to boast.
@_catspajamas Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. We cannot see faith nor conviction inside a person.
Romans 5:1Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Faith in Jesus one is justified.
@_catspajamas I wouldn't word it as a "requirement". But rather, a new desire to want to do good works. That is part of being a new man in Christ.
@_catspajamas The truth sets you free. James was an apostle to the Jews, therefore he was writing to the Jews at this time. There was a separation between the wheat and tares going on at this time. He was getting on them to act out their new desires, and those who rejected Christ, would all the more be stirred to jealousy in hopes to save every last one of them before the destruction of the temple.
@_catspajamasI told you, the truth sets you free. 👈
I also explained to you where James was coming from.
@_catspajamas I answered you directly. John 8:31-38 answers your question directly. If this is not making sense to you, I would be happy to assist.
Interesting that Romans 918 says that it doesn’t matter what salvation carrot you choose to hop to in the end it’s God‘s will that chooses who is shown mercy and who is hardened faith works baptism, believing blah blah blah doesn’t mean a damn thing to your God, he decides
According to St. John of Damascus, it is customary for the scriptures to refer to God’s permission as His action. The passage in question is referencing the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart in Exodus. One passage in Exodus says that Pharaoh hardened his heart, another passage says God hardened Pharaoh’s heart; both are talking about the same thing. God doesn’t force anyone’s will, the passages in Exodus and Romans are DESCRIPTIVE, not prescriptive. You malign God when you misunderstand the text, I would be careful with your words if I were you.
Dalex, That’s not what that verse says. It’s saying that God shows mercy or hardens whoever he wants and that outcome is determined by the choices the person with free will makes.
After verses 19-21 point out that we have no right to question our creator, verse 22 continues the point of verse 18 by saying,
“God, although willing to show wrath and to make His power known, bore in much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,”
As St. John Chrysostom said in a homily of his on the matter: “Whence then are some vessels of wrath, but others of mercy? From their own free choice. And God, being exceedingly good, shows the same kindness to both.”