It does bring out the best in him right now, but he still should do the one man vs a camera bit. :) He's fine and will continue to improve. And Paul, get Darren to do some more vids!!!f He's great on video and an asset. I know he's a nervous Nelly, etc, and/or doesn't like to, but you're the boss and he always does a great job. He's golden and has nothing to worry about. His nerves will eventually mellow out. There was a time I thought Darren was being groomed to do a lot of vids because he appeared to be a natural. I think he still is, he just doesn't realize it.
Outstanding individual. I vastly appreciate his pace, depth and breadth of knowledge/competency. Not just in the field, but the science and also along the vertical integration side. Not one word was used to brag/claim attention to anything that didn't contribute to the discussion. You guys are lucky to have him as a worker!
@giri kotte Most intelligent people are humble, but their levels of frustration they experience often give the opposite impression. They realize they know little, understand little, but they're still at a higher level than most. In many ways they too are looking for help to understand more, but realize most people just aren't there yet to provide insight.
I received my Magnepan LRS about two weeks ago. I am extremely impressed. I am running PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell Dac and a Pass 150.5. The neutrality, and balance of the speaker is simply astonishing. They image reasonably well, but my room does not allow for pulling them out more than 3 feet. I imagine in a better space they would disappear. I owned Martin Logans for awhile but I could never get into them and because of that I shy'd away from Magnepans for literally decades. The thing I love about the LRS is that its a great speaker that gets better with your gear. I may pair them with a couple small REL subs to bring the air back into the playback, but even without them I am simply amazed.
More of these pls Paul/Chris 🙏🏼 One can learn a lot of nifty things. I for one took a ton of new info and such and I must’ve watch these vids like dozens of times already tbh
I just love thies viedos Paul and Chris! they are amazing "I am new to Hi fi " so for me its amazing to get so much knowlage though you guys! I can only say thank you!
AMT's really shine when they're designed to cover the midrange. There's an engineer who worked with Dr Heil at ESS who hand builds AMTs that crossover at 500, and they are spectacular.
@Art DIY My friend who builds speakers around them doesn't have a current website, but his old website is still online: www.kathleenryan.com/paulsquillo/galleries/atmatec-speaker-pix/
I like big stats and I cannot lie... sittin in the sweet spot Listen to a pin drop Feel the viola bow Far left in third row But as far as the bass go I gotta rock that sub yo Cause stats don’t thump and I like the bump so a pair of big subs ta shake ya rump 🤣
Great, Paul. I knew that you would find a way to help Chris and his knowledge base to be articulated. He is really a fine engineer by all of his understanding. Now he is sharing it with us. Thanks Paul for finding his talent and revealing Chris to us.
My dad built himself some speakers back in the day with compression drivers and a horn in front of it. These drivers were JBL 2426H's and are still sold today for around 800$ a piece. Now I'm building my own speakers and im using four BG Neo8 PDR per side for around 800$ and i think they sound phenomenal. The only issue I'm having, is that these planars are much more directional, where the jbl horns are not that much directional due to their biradial horn flares..
I find it funny that they are talking costs that really amount to pennies or less they pennies and yet the end user pays out the a$$ for the product. Like with the speakers in the car. You know the car had to be 40 grand plus and yet .005 cents was the breaking point for the stereo system, one of the most use items in a car. Same with home audio. How many times have we looked into or had something break that if the builder would have added 10 cents to the build it would have never happened? I also know there is a lot of components and the pennies add up but $5, 10 15 extra in a build that costs the consumer thousands seems like a no brainer to me.
Well, automotive manufacturing is arguably the most cutthroat industry in terms of price competitiveness. 40k is a lot of money no doubt, but it really pays for a lot of things, there are approximately 30k parts in a given car, now imagine designing all those together, putting them together (simply imagine putting together a 30k pieces puzzle), specialized machinery for those different parts...also labor+marketing+interest payment+logistics+depreciation on machinery+accounting for failed parts+servicing.
It is true the early Quads from 60 years ago have very narrow dispersion , hence the “head in a vice” effect. However, many of these Quad 57 electrostatics are still in use today as the mid range is considered unmatched by any modern speaker. I have a pair of full range ESL IV electrostatics built by E R Audio here in Australia. They are in a different league from any box speaker I have ever heard. Modern electrostatic designs have largely addressed the narrow dispersion and lack of bass. The principle is simple but building requires skill and is not just a matter of slapping off-the-shelf drivers into an enclosure. Yes, they are large and expensive, but so are many top quality box speakers. Electrostatics are super fast , have very low distortion and no distorting crossover. I get useful output down to 30Hz. Bass is more refined than a big cone woofer as electrostats do not pressurise the room in the same way. A good recording sounds simply stunning.
Not so sure I agree with the "cost more" comment. I can get a pair of Magnepan 3.7i's for $6500, whereas I can easily name 10 "box" speakers that top 6 figures.
Given that speakers are a niche product where personal preferences and marketing jargon both go a long way in determining consumer choices, cost of parts seems like an overstated aspect. But they aren't. Eventually, the companies who mass produce speakers will always be affected by additional costs. Sony, Klipsch, Harman aren't going to choose drivers which improve a waterfall plot or a phase result by 5% if it increases their cost by even 1%. The end user isn't likely to notice a 5% improvement in a spec over a 1% increase in price. And slick marketing can always be used to justify why the speaker design which actually sounds worse or tests worse, is in "fact" better. And who's to argue if you're saving $10? Lol Improve one spec by 10% and my ears might not even be able to justify paying $10 more for it.
I have to agree with you here. I recently auditioned a pair of Maggies MG 20.7s. About $15K. Compare them with other brands for performance and they are not overpriced, or overly expensive. Plus, as you pointed out they have other models that are very reasonable.
I'd bet here he is talking about the raw drivers themselves. A company can take (and many do) off the shelf raw drivers that cost a few hundred dollars total, put them into nice cabinets, design and build the crossovers for them and then charge for that. As Paul mentioned in a video quite some time ago, the manufacturer then sells it to a distributor who then doubles the price and sells to a retailer. But at the base driver level, the drivers, comparatively in most cases are not the expensive parts of the overall package.
Well, Magnepan speakers do offer good value. They often to opt for a lower cost approach in some ways - ceramic magnets instead of neodymium in a number of places, in part leading to lower sensitivity and output (though cost is a great deal lower). Something like an LRS is 4 ohm and only 80 dB sensitivty as a result (though cost is low). Moving to neo and etched diaphragms is much more expensive but could result in 6+ dB sensitivity and a much more dynamic system. They also do offer very low dealer margins than most brands (especially on the less expensive models), they also are wrapped in simple cloth and have rather utilitarian stands etc. and so the retail cost isn't necessary a reflection of the BOM cost of the drive units etc.
Only if Chris was up for fighting a bit. Lol Arnie struck me as a scrapper. I kinda like that personality if they don't take themselves too seriously. Some people are best motivated and learn the most when they can find someone who's also up for heated banter.
@@charlesferguson6678 well I only agree with you 84.7%, ya little prick! And we're going to argue into the night to resolve our minor differences so I can get my usual 4 and a half hours of crappy sleep. :)
On one side of the pacific you have the factories with some engineers trying to squeeze every penny out of the BOM and on the other side you have the brands with product managers trying to grow the margin to make a business. Often you end up with a speaker costing 1000s of US$ in retail that has drivers in it that cost well under US$100 on the BOM. It's great if PS Audio can put some quality drivers in their future speakers through in-house passionate engineering.
ThinkingBetter if a company is making desirable product at market price, why do their material-/manufacturing cost matter to consumers? Let alone there are many other cost omitted from simply stating the manufacturing cost. I believe if there’s a market for it, it’s a fair price.
And what about acoustic drawbacks related to this larger area drivers? The way he puts it, it sounds as if every "money no object" setup were made of planars.
If cost is a problem, how is Magnepan selling the LRS for a budget price of 650 dollars? As far as I understand, Magnepan has not invested in automated processes so theoretically the cost of construction could be brought down from there. I’m not sure I totally believe that cost is a valid con.
I guessing your response would be that they aren’t making significant money on them, but they could sell for 1k and be worth every penny. I feel like the real point here is that proper investment hasn’t been made in reducing costs in manufacturing of planars and there is real opportunity there.
The LRS is a small speaker, as planers go... lacking lower end response, because with planers, size does matter. They don't make much money on them. There's no room for dealer markup. I'm guessing they are a break-even or even a loss-leader to get customers to listen to them at home, fall in love with the sound and upgrade to larger Maggies. The plan worked on me...starting with the comparatively bad SMGs in the 80's (didn't come close to LRS, but still produced quick, revealing sound that made you not want to go back to cones), then MMG'S before my current pair of 1.6s.
I think my point may have been missed here. I'm not really asking why or how Magnepan is selling inexpensive planars. I'm using them as an example of the fact that doing so isn't really all that expensive. They are doing it, and as far as I understand, they're doing it with a CNC machine and hand-building the drivers (this manual labor is the expensive part). I'm certain that automation could replace much of the manual labor. Does it cost money up-front? Heck yeah, but 2 points here: 1. Automation prices are dropping. 2. Were you to make planars with automation, you could sell for much less and as Pinky and the Brain would say... "Rule the World!"
@@aweidenhammer I get what you are saying, but you have to have a certain amount of sales to make automation worthwhile. Until they cross the point where it doesn't have a heavy impact for the current fiscal year they will probably not go to automation. Plus they are probably very comfortable with the current system of production. I don't know if you have any Maggies but I do, and their customer service is top notch too. I do not feel like I am just another customer when I have called in. They have even spent time with me on the phone to troubleshoot a weird problem I had on a pair of 10 year old Maggies. Great Company.
From outside it would look like two person are talking about normal everyday stuff, taxes, politics, etc. In reality, they are talking about really interesting and smart things. Really good video, but I recommend finding next time a less crowded, noisy place.
I agree with Richard, I think he's assuming all of us understand like you do. You sometime have him stop and explain things in a way you know we'll all understand.
Scintillas powered by Jeff Rowland were my introduction to ribbons. I was utterly amazed by the soundstage, but they struck me as not well suited to rock music.
Praise the lord - what refreshing honesty - cuts through all the bs- planers are ARE superior approach to sound reproduction unless (OK rock and orchestral fans) u want/need huge spl / bass. Who cares if they don’t disperse -audiophiles listen alone like 98% of the time?! And yes they do need to be away from walls but so does any cone speaker with a rear vent! They are complex and fragile compared to most cone speakers and their resistance can drop To 2 ohms so u need a amp that doesn’t drop voltage but ceteris parabis but there is no better sound than stats...I fidn though that so many audiophiles have not really heard let alone auditioned good planars..the industry understandably pushes boxes-high WAF, easy to ship, not fragile , easier to place in a room, I get it and there are obviously some great sounding box speakers-but lets at least be honest -for vocal, acoustical, jazz, single listener (and its almost ALWAYS a single listener situatuion) ESPECIALLy on a dollar to dollar basis, simply cant beat planars/electrostats-open baffle )also unknown to most audiophiles) come closest , and they also get you more bass. (Although even less WAF)
The idea that they're more expensive or labour intensive seems a little counter intuitive. I just saw a guy on youtube whip up a planar speaker in real time in about half an hour. WIthout any power tools. It'd actually make a pretty good science project for any 8th grader who'd left it till the night before. And like he said, a traditional driver has all sorts of parts. You also need dies and casts and metallurgy and a dozen different materials. I couldn't even make a spider in my garage, but I could make a planar with whatever I have under the kitchen sink.
Chris & Paul, if you're not already aware of him, you guys should look at videos by Joppe Peelen. Dutch, coffee and beer drinking and not afraid to swear on air. Not many subscribers, but there's some serious genius in his work.
The "head in a vice" issue isn't a problem with planar headphones, of course! And cost isn't such a problem if you track down a pair of vintage planar headphones.
The commercial thing. Thats why popular brands also sell bad things. but thats what the mass want, they cant or dont want another experience. if there are less brands or better cooperatives with each other all could win but where're in capitalism.
Paul, could you please stop badgering the witness. I will never pay 12,000 dollars for any class D powered speaker. I'm to crafty, I could build better sounding and definitely better looking .🤭
There is a lot of truth in this. But again this is out of context. Ribbons and Plannar drivers only sound cool and do some impressive things. The problem with them is that they sound unnatural not playing as a whole with other drivers, and don't integrate very well in regards to structure, and require a lot of complex handling, again extending the signal which is bad. So what you get in the end is just something that impresses you, not something that sounds like the real thing. Plus they only work in a very limited space, and can't handle a gush of wind because that takes them out so they need replacing. (happened to some of my friends while opening a window) Yes they sound many times awesome, but again then you are going for a bias that is more HIFI techy/isolating detail on a data level, rather than actually listening to something that is as close as possible to the optimal natural sound. I have only heard Verity Sarastro 2 which had a really top notch ribbon tweeter, and yes it was awesome. But still a bit tirering in the long run, not fully integrating, ending up in making the detail stick out which is nice in the start. (and this is the best ribbon I have ever heard) Most other ribbons just sound wrong, same with plannar drivers. It wow you, but several months later it just gets in the way of music, so that everything sounds like it is going through a cheaper kind of filter, compared to what is optimal. It is a way of cheating, a bit like making a normal speaker with ceramic drivers, sounds cool, but later you end up regretting it because normal ceramic drivers on normals speakers suck the life out of music and just goes after effect not substance. Yes normal dynamic drivers has more distortion. But again, this is out of context because they usually also have a better high quality filter that is a bit shorter in signal, and those components with the speaker drivers, just deliver more music which is the most important thing. Less distortion is only relevant mentioning, when you are also comparing the same quality of components behind what is used as units. The biggest problem with Ribbon and Plannar tech is all that is used together with it, is usually not very good, and the ribbon tech especially has a knack for telling the user this. It's all about coupling the right parts together, separate parts that are the best in theory almost never sound like the best, when not coupled correctly. A natural form of distortion also sounds many times better, distortion should not be looked down upon, it is mostly important how you solve minimizing it, than just removing it which sounds cool on paper.
Agree somewhat, but the biggest problem you point out is mixing dynamic drivers with planars, which is not a fault of planars itself. Sadly Alsyvox speakers are way out of my budget but i have never heard anything as natural sounding and as close to a live performance as those. Think if more planar magnetic drivers would have been made from strong neodymium magnets from the start instead of those cheaper rubber ferrite magnets the perception of this tech would be different.
Again so much prejudice on electrostatics and hearsay that is going around for decades now that are NOT true. Wonder if Chris ever heard a good set. There is still nothing on the planet that beats a good full range ESL (not a hybrid, not a ribbon, not a planar) They have all the low you need, but no distortion and that is what you're listening at with woofers and even more with subs. The linearity in phase and time coherency of an electrostatic full range speaker is unmatched no matter how many fancy box speakers they build. Everybody talks about "speed" nowadays, fast this, fast that. Well an electrostatic is the fastest there is period. Nothing can even come close let alone match it. Head in vice? NO. That was with the 57 design of the Quad Paul is referring to. That is long gone. No bass? NO. But no 10% (yes really) or more distortion like conventional woofers. They go down to 35 Hz with less than 1% distortion. Again nothing on the planet can match that. They don't play loud? Depends on your interpretation of loud. No you can't imitate rock concert. But remember anything above 90 dB can cause hearing damage in the longer term. Once you have heard a good full range electrostatic loudspeaker your lost, there is no way back, you're hooked for life. I am.
@@doowopper1951 Paul owned the Quad ESL from 1957. Read that year again, yes 1957. The mother of all full rnage electrostatic speakers. Yes, this model had the head in a vice problem agreed.
@@ESL-Plus I also love electrostats, but you really need the space to make them sing, otherwise the bass is also very limited. PS Paul said in another video he owned many, including Martin Logans (which have a curved further spreading panel)
Jos Wouters absolutely correct. I have a pair of full range floor standing electrostatics. Once you hear modern electrostatics it will be obvious that no box speaker comes close.
This is clearly the best way to bring out the best in Chris. Good job Paul.
Exactly 👍
This great duo sounds like a well tuned set of drivers.
It does bring out the best in him right now, but he still should do the one man vs a camera bit. :)
He's fine and will continue to improve.
And Paul, get Darren to do some more vids!!!f He's great on video and an asset. I know he's a nervous Nelly, etc, and/or doesn't like to, but you're the boss and he always does a great job.
He's golden and has nothing to worry about. His nerves will eventually mellow out.
There was a time I thought Darren was being groomed to do a lot of vids because he appeared to be a natural. I think he still is, he just doesn't realize it.
Outstanding individual. I vastly appreciate his pace, depth and breadth of knowledge/competency. Not just in the field, but the science and also along the vertical integration side.
Not one word was used to brag/claim attention to anything that didn't contribute to the discussion.
You guys are lucky to have him as a worker!
Chris, he seems like a very humble person, and of course intelligent.
@giri kotte Most intelligent people are humble, but their levels of frustration they experience often give the opposite impression.
They realize they know little, understand little, but they're still at a higher level than most. In many ways they too are looking for help to understand more, but realize most people just aren't there yet to provide insight.
Really enjoy listening to Chris share his knowledge.
I like this format -- sort of question and answer . . . like an interview. There is more dynamics and focus this way.
"Like an interview..." But, with more interruption.
How big is your cat's litter box?
man, i'm absolutely LOVING these chats!!
Great chat guys. Thanks, Chris. I could listen to you talk speakers all day, man! Excellent vid. 🎶🔊🙂
I received my Magnepan LRS about two weeks ago. I am extremely impressed. I am running PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell Dac and a Pass 150.5. The neutrality, and balance of the speaker is simply astonishing. They image reasonably well, but my room does not allow for pulling them out more than 3 feet. I imagine in a better space they would disappear.
I owned Martin Logans for awhile but I could never get into them and because of that I shy'd away from Magnepans for literally decades. The thing I love about the LRS is that its a great speaker that gets better with your gear. I may pair them with a couple small REL subs to bring the air back into the playback, but even without them I am simply amazed.
More of these pls Paul/Chris 🙏🏼
One can learn a lot of nifty things. I for one took a ton of new info and such and I must’ve watch these vids like dozens of times already tbh
I just love thies viedos Paul and Chris! they are amazing "I am new to Hi fi " so for me its amazing to get so much knowlage though you guys! I can only say thank you!
Very informative conversation. Like Your videos, Paul !
Well done AMTs are the sweet spot. The square Aurum Cantus units in my speakers are ultra clean but not fatiguing at all.
AMT's really shine when they're designed to cover the midrange. There's an engineer who worked with Dr Heil at ESS who hand builds AMTs that crossover at 500, and they are spectacular.
@Art DIY My friend who builds speakers around them doesn't have a current website, but his old website is still online: www.kathleenryan.com/paulsquillo/galleries/atmatec-speaker-pix/
Chris is a smart guy, good to hear from him.
Love the lunch series!!! More!!
I like big stats and I cannot lie...
sittin in the sweet spot
Listen to a pin drop
Feel the viola bow
Far left in third row
But as far as the bass go
I gotta rock that sub yo
Cause stats don’t thump
and I like the bump
so a pair of big subs ta shake ya rump
🤣
Great, Paul. I knew that you would find a way to help Chris and his knowledge base to be articulated. He is really a fine engineer by all of his understanding. Now he is sharing it with us. Thanks Paul for finding his talent and revealing Chris to us.
My dad built himself some speakers back in the day with compression drivers and a horn in front of it. These drivers were JBL 2426H's and are still sold today for around 800$ a piece. Now I'm building my own speakers and im using four BG Neo8 PDR per side for around 800$ and i think they sound phenomenal. The only issue I'm having, is that these planars are much more directional, where the jbl horns are not that much directional due to their biradial horn flares..
Great interview and clear explanations, thank you
I find it funny that they are talking costs that really amount to pennies or less they pennies and yet the end user pays out the a$$ for the product. Like with the speakers in the car. You know the car had to be 40 grand plus and yet .005 cents was the breaking point for the stereo system, one of the most use items in a car. Same with home audio. How many times have we looked into or had something break that if the builder would have added 10 cents to the build it would have never happened? I also know there is a lot of components and the pennies add up but $5, 10 15 extra in a build that costs the consumer thousands seems like a no brainer to me.
Well, automotive manufacturing is arguably the most cutthroat industry in terms of price competitiveness. 40k is a lot of money no doubt, but it really pays for a lot of things, there are approximately 30k parts in a given car, now imagine designing all those together, putting them together (simply imagine putting together a 30k pieces puzzle), specialized machinery for those different parts...also labor+marketing+interest payment+logistics+depreciation on machinery+accounting for failed parts+servicing.
THIS is excellent!! Answers SO many questions Ive had but never knew where to ask for so long!! Great stuff?
It is true the early Quads from 60 years ago have very narrow dispersion , hence the “head in a vice” effect. However, many of these Quad 57 electrostatics are still in use today as the mid range is considered unmatched by any modern speaker. I have a pair of full range ESL IV electrostatics built by E R Audio here in Australia. They are in a different league from any box speaker I have ever heard. Modern electrostatic designs have largely addressed the narrow dispersion and lack of bass. The principle is simple but building requires skill and is not just a matter of slapping off-the-shelf drivers into an enclosure. Yes, they are large and expensive, but so are many top quality box speakers. Electrostatics are super fast , have very low distortion and no distorting crossover. I get useful output down to 30Hz. Bass is more refined than a big cone woofer as electrostats do not pressurise the room in the same way. A good recording sounds simply stunning.
And that is why I sent Martin Logan a personal letter of thanks. They are the so far, the sweetest sounding speakers I have owned in all my 67 years!
Not so sure I agree with the "cost more" comment. I can get a pair of Magnepan 3.7i's for $6500, whereas I can easily name 10 "box" speakers that top 6 figures.
Given that speakers are a niche product where personal preferences and marketing jargon both go a long way in determining consumer choices, cost of parts seems like an overstated aspect. But they aren't.
Eventually, the companies who mass produce speakers will always be affected by additional costs.
Sony, Klipsch, Harman aren't going to choose drivers which improve a waterfall plot or a phase result by 5% if it increases their cost by even 1%. The end user isn't likely to notice a 5% improvement in a spec over a 1% increase in price. And slick marketing can always be used to justify why the speaker design which actually sounds worse or tests worse, is in "fact" better. And who's to argue if you're saving $10? Lol
Improve one spec by 10% and my ears might not even be able to justify paying $10 more for it.
I have to agree with you here. I recently auditioned a pair of Maggies MG 20.7s. About $15K. Compare them with other brands for performance and they are not overpriced, or overly expensive. Plus, as you pointed out they have other models that are very reasonable.
I'd bet here he is talking about the raw drivers themselves. A company can take (and many do) off the shelf raw drivers that cost a few hundred dollars total, put them into nice cabinets, design and build the crossovers for them and then charge for that. As Paul mentioned in a video quite some time ago, the manufacturer then sells it to a distributor who then doubles the price and sells to a retailer. But at the base driver level, the drivers, comparatively in most cases are not the expensive parts of the overall package.
Well, Magnepan speakers do offer good value. They often to opt for a lower cost approach in some ways - ceramic magnets instead of neodymium in a number of places, in part leading to lower sensitivity and output (though cost is a great deal lower). Something like an LRS is 4 ohm and only 80 dB sensitivty as a result (though cost is low). Moving to neo and etched diaphragms is much more expensive but could result in 6+ dB sensitivity and a much more dynamic system. They also do offer very low dealer margins than most brands (especially on the less expensive models), they also are wrapped in simple cloth and have rather utilitarian stands etc. and so the retail cost isn't necessary a reflection of the BOM cost of the drive units etc.
Very well done gents. Great content and questions. I just love listening to Chris talk about speakers. Very interesting topics. More please 🙏
I like these series, keep them coming please.
More please. Awesome.
I think Arnie would like this guy.
Only if Chris was up for fighting a bit. Lol
Arnie struck me as a scrapper. I kinda like that personality if they don't take themselves too seriously. Some people are best motivated and learn the most when they can find someone who's also up for heated banter.
@@thunderpooch Actually I agree with you completely.
@@charlesferguson6678 well I only agree with you 84.7%, ya little prick! And we're going to argue into the night to resolve our minor differences so I can get my usual 4 and a half hours of crappy sleep. :)
@@thunderpooch haha can this include beer?
@@charlesferguson6678 We'll definitely require chasers. ;)
Someday PS Audio Might have an actual speaker for sale but I doubt it!
Yep. I fear others will be taking over and talking about their late great friend Paul... instead of Arnie.
I rather them take there time and get it right.
On one side of the pacific you have the factories with some engineers trying to squeeze every penny out of the BOM and on the other side you have the brands with product managers trying to grow the margin to make a business. Often you end up with a speaker costing 1000s of US$ in retail that has drivers in it that cost well under US$100 on the BOM. It's great if PS Audio can put some quality drivers in their future speakers through in-house passionate engineering.
ThinkingBetter if a company is making desirable product at market price, why do their material-/manufacturing cost matter to consumers? Let alone there are many other cost omitted from simply stating the manufacturing cost. I believe if there’s a market for it, it’s a fair price.
j L I care cause as a consumer I like to pay for great passionate audio engineering and great components rather than yet another Ferrari for the CEO.
Is this the interview(s) that landed Chris a job with PSAudio?
And what about acoustic drawbacks related to this larger area drivers? The way he puts it, it sounds as if every "money no object" setup were made of planars.
Magnepan Clarity: customers keep coming back, minus class D, Go AB sst-ampzilla ll
If cost is a problem, how is Magnepan selling the LRS for a budget price of 650 dollars? As far as I understand, Magnepan has not invested in automated processes so theoretically the cost of construction could be brought down from there. I’m not sure I totally believe that cost is a valid con.
I guessing your response would be that they aren’t making significant money on them, but they could sell for 1k and be worth every penny. I feel like the real point here is that proper investment hasn’t been made in reducing costs in manufacturing of planars and there is real opportunity there.
I think they sell for that price know many will upgrade from there.
The LRS is a small speaker, as planers go... lacking lower end response, because with planers, size does matter.
They don't make much money on them.
There's no room for dealer markup.
I'm guessing they are a break-even or even a loss-leader to get customers to listen to them at home, fall in love with the sound and upgrade to larger Maggies.
The plan worked on me...starting with the comparatively bad SMGs in the 80's (didn't come close to LRS, but still produced quick, revealing sound that made you not want to go back to cones), then MMG'S before my current pair of 1.6s.
I think my point may have been missed here. I'm not really asking why or how Magnepan is selling inexpensive planars. I'm using them as an example of the fact that doing so isn't really all that expensive. They are doing it, and as far as I understand, they're doing it with a CNC machine and hand-building the drivers (this manual labor is the expensive part). I'm certain that automation could replace much of the manual labor. Does it cost money up-front? Heck yeah, but 2 points here:
1. Automation prices are dropping.
2. Were you to make planars with automation, you could sell for much less and as Pinky and the Brain would say... "Rule the World!"
@@aweidenhammer I get what you are saying, but you have to have a certain amount of sales to make automation worthwhile. Until they cross the point where it doesn't have a heavy impact for the current fiscal year they will probably not go to automation. Plus they are probably very comfortable with the current system of production. I don't know if you have any Maggies but I do, and their customer service is top notch too. I do not feel like I am just another customer when I have called in. They have even spent time with me on the phone to troubleshoot a weird problem I had on a pair of 10 year old Maggies. Great Company.
From outside it would look like two person are talking about normal everyday stuff, taxes, politics, etc. In reality, they are talking about really interesting and smart things. Really good video, but I recommend finding next time a less crowded, noisy place.
How do I get to have lunch with Paul? I'll buy!
I agree with Richard, I think he's assuming all of us understand like you do. You sometime have him stop and explain things in a way you know we'll all understand.
I still miss my Apogee Scintillas 😔
Scintillas powered by Jeff Rowland were my introduction to ribbons. I was utterly amazed by the soundstage, but they struck me as not well suited to rock music.
Alex Stanley true ...but a glorious piece of tech fir the time. Mine were powered by Classe’ Dr3-vhc
All the ribbon tweeters I have heard have an almost glassy timbre to them
Praise the lord - what refreshing honesty - cuts through all the bs- planers are ARE superior approach to sound reproduction unless (OK rock and orchestral fans) u want/need huge spl / bass. Who cares if they don’t disperse -audiophiles listen alone like 98% of the time?! And yes they do need to be away from walls but so does any cone speaker with a rear vent! They are complex and fragile compared to most cone speakers and their resistance can drop
To 2 ohms so u need a amp that doesn’t drop voltage but ceteris parabis but there is no better sound than stats...I fidn though that so many audiophiles have not really heard let alone auditioned good planars..the industry understandably pushes boxes-high WAF, easy to ship, not fragile , easier to place in a room, I get it and there are obviously some great sounding box speakers-but lets at least be honest -for vocal, acoustical, jazz, single listener (and its almost ALWAYS a single listener situatuion) ESPECIALLy on a dollar to dollar basis, simply cant beat planars/electrostats-open baffle )also unknown to most audiophiles) come closest , and they also get you more bass. (Although even less WAF)
Look at the quality and prices of Airpulse 80 and Edifier s3000pro
Please send me my tubes. I paid $230 over two months ago for something I could have had overnighted to me from amazon.
Oof, that's crazy.
The idea that they're more expensive or labour intensive seems a little counter intuitive. I just saw a guy on youtube whip up a planar speaker in real time in about half an hour. WIthout any power tools. It'd actually make a pretty good science project for any 8th grader who'd left it till the night before. And like he said, a traditional driver has all sorts of parts. You also need dies and casts and metallurgy and a dozen different materials. I couldn't even make a spider in my garage, but I could make a planar with whatever I have under the kitchen sink.
are planars with field coils possible?
Yes but the copper bulk and electrical losses cause major difficulties.
Six panel tympani 1 d
Makes my hair stand up.
And is smaller than my boxes and horns.
Chris & Paul, if you're not already aware of him, you guys should look at videos by Joppe Peelen. Dutch, coffee and beer drinking and not afraid to swear on air. Not many subscribers, but there's some serious genius in his work.
The "head in a vice" issue isn't a problem with planar headphones, of course! And cost isn't such a problem if you track down a pair of vintage planar headphones.
Size, cost and needs a subwoofer.
The commercial thing. Thats why popular brands also sell bad things. but thats what the mass want, they cant or dont want another experience. if there are less brands or better cooperatives with each other all could win but where're in capitalism.
Drink every time he nods...
Is it a coincidence that midway through the video the lens flare made a Halo around Chris B's head? IS IT??
I think not.
Paul, could you please stop badgering the witness.
I will never pay 12,000 dollars for any class D powered speaker.
I'm to crafty, I could build better sounding and definitely better looking .🤭
They aren't very efficient
There is a lot of truth in this. But again this is out of context. Ribbons and Plannar drivers only sound cool and do some impressive things. The problem with them is that they sound unnatural not playing as a whole with other drivers, and don't integrate very well in regards to structure, and require a lot of complex handling, again extending the signal which is bad. So what you get in the end is just something that impresses you, not something that sounds like the real thing. Plus they only work in a very limited space, and can't handle a gush of wind because that takes them out so they need replacing. (happened to some of my friends while opening a window)
Yes they sound many times awesome, but again then you are going for a bias that is more HIFI techy/isolating detail on a data level, rather than actually listening to something that is as close as possible to the optimal natural sound.
I have only heard Verity Sarastro 2 which had a really top notch ribbon tweeter, and yes it was awesome. But still a bit tirering in the long run, not fully integrating, ending up in making the detail stick out which is nice in the start. (and this is the best ribbon I have ever heard)
Most other ribbons just sound wrong, same with plannar drivers. It wow you, but several months later it just gets in the way of music, so that everything sounds like it is going through a cheaper kind of filter, compared to what is optimal. It is a way of cheating, a bit like making a normal speaker with ceramic drivers, sounds cool, but later you end up regretting it because normal ceramic drivers on normals speakers suck the life out of music and just goes after effect not substance.
Yes normal dynamic drivers has more distortion. But again, this is out of context because they usually also have a better high quality filter that is a bit shorter in signal, and those components with the speaker drivers, just deliver more music which is the most important thing. Less distortion is only relevant mentioning, when you are also comparing the same quality of components behind what is used as units. The biggest problem with Ribbon and Plannar tech is all that is used together with it, is usually not very good, and the ribbon tech especially has a knack for telling the user this.
It's all about coupling the right parts together, separate parts that are the best in theory almost never sound like the best, when not coupled correctly.
A natural form of distortion also sounds many times better, distortion should not be looked down upon, it is mostly important how you solve minimizing it, than just removing it which sounds cool on paper.
Agree somewhat, but the biggest problem you point out is mixing dynamic drivers with planars, which is not a fault of planars itself. Sadly Alsyvox speakers are way out of my budget but i have never heard anything as natural sounding and as close to a live performance as those.
Think if more planar magnetic drivers would have been made from strong neodymium magnets from the start instead of those cheaper rubber ferrite magnets the perception of this tech would be different.
Again so much prejudice on electrostatics and hearsay that is going around for decades now that are NOT true. Wonder if Chris ever heard a good set.
There is still nothing on the planet that beats a good full range ESL (not a hybrid, not a ribbon, not a planar)
They have all the low you need, but no distortion and that is what you're listening at with woofers and even more with subs.
The linearity in phase and time coherency of an electrostatic full range speaker is unmatched no matter how many fancy box speakers they build.
Everybody talks about "speed" nowadays, fast this, fast that. Well an electrostatic is the fastest there is period. Nothing can even come close let alone match it.
Head in vice? NO. That was with the 57 design of the Quad Paul is referring to. That is long gone.
No bass? NO. But no 10% (yes really) or more distortion like conventional woofers. They go down to 35 Hz with less than 1% distortion. Again nothing on the planet can match that.
They don't play loud? Depends on your interpretation of loud. No you can't imitate rock concert. But remember anything above 90 dB can cause hearing damage in the longer term.
Once you have heard a good full range electrostatic loudspeaker your lost, there is no way back, you're hooked for life. I am.
Paul would strongly disagree, and he used to own electrostatics (although I don’t remember which ones).
@@doowopper1951 Paul owned the Quad ESL from 1957. Read that year again, yes 1957. The mother of all full rnage electrostatic speakers. Yes, this model had the head in a vice problem agreed.
@@ESL-Plus I also love electrostats, but you really need the space to make them sing, otherwise the bass is also very limited. PS Paul said in another video he owned many, including Martin Logans (which have a curved further spreading panel)
@@Christian-op1ss and a ML is NOT an electrostat as I wrote, it is a hybrid.
Jos Wouters absolutely correct. I have a pair of full range floor standing electrostatics. Once you hear modern electrostatics it will be obvious that no box speaker comes close.