How Should Western Christians View the Israel-Palestine Conflict? Middle Eastern Christians Respond
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- How Should Western Christians View the Israel-Palestine Conflict? A Middle Eastern Christian Perspective.
In this episode of the Mouseion, I am joined by three Middle Eastern Christians with roots in the Holy Land (Israel and Palestine) that share their life experiences and points of view. This episode is not designed to tell anyone how to think, but instead to introduce this minority community into a conversation dominated in the media by uplifting one side or the other. The Middle East, including the Holy Land, is a very diverse place and there are many perspectives that are often ignored or lost against the broader dichotomy pushed by various governments and the differing media apparatuses. It is my hope that this conversation will help us break out of an "A vs. B" dichotomy and instead have a more nuanced approach to the conversation. We prefer to be peace-makers.
We ask our listeners and viewers to pray for all the peoples of the Holy Land and especially pray for those of us in this podcast.
Glossary:
Abouna - "Father" (lit. "our Father" in Arabic, though also in Modern Aramaic); this is one of the ways in which Eastern Christians address priests.
Shamosho - Deacon (Aramaic/Syriac - Western Dialect)
Shammas - Deacon (Arabic)
Malphono - Professor, teacher (Syriac - Western Dialect)
Visit Subdeacon Daniel Kakish's Channel: / @danielkakish
Visit Fr. George's RUclips Channel:
/ @askabouna8858
#israelpalestineconflict #Israel #palestine
“Death is coming, now or later” - Abouna George
Love the conversation. Thank you all. I'm looking forward for more content
As a Christian, I am not a Zionist,.I pray for the Palestinians; innocent children, Christians and Muslims for their safety and Aid is able to reach all Palestinians . I believe reconciliation and Statehood is the only way forward for Isreals and Palestinians, with support from neighboring Arab countries.. I believe Netanyahu's has not been an ineffective leader for Israel. His policy of "scorched earth" especially for Palestinians in both the Gaza and West Bank is dangerous and to many viewers, mirrors Hilters Nazi Germany. This doesnt play well and Netanyahu zionist attitudes might come back and bite him and Isreal. From what I read, many Israelis don't support his current party.
The situation certainly does seem to create "hatred-level" conditions that are hard to heal as long as the hate is present.
All Palestinians are trained to hate Israel. They were getting trained since childhood to combat and use assault guns to be used against Israel as summer camps.
October 7 took years to plan. While Israel is not perfect and makes mistakes, also there may be corruption in the leadership, like all countries, they are not committing genocide. They could kill everybody if they wanted to. But Israel has the 10 commandments as principles by the people. Israel has the right to protect Israelis from terrorism
qual e o nome verdadeiro Do criador e Do filho Do criador !?#
I dont see why you don’t acknowledge the violence of Islam. Do you think it would be better for Israel to be an Islamic state? Who else will stop them?
What is violent about Islam?
I like the idea of the United Emirates of Palestine idea the best, as a viable solution to peace.
The premises of the idea is to breakup the authority according to tribal/religious/locality lines.
So there would be an emirate of Bethlehem, an emirate of Nablus, etc.
All these Emirates and Israel then sign a peace agreement where they are allowed to work and live in each other's territory, but not vote in elections or hold government positions in the territory other treaty members. They would sign an agreements where they standardize school curriculum, law inforcement, import/export, etc.
Everyone could live and work where they want. And no one would rule outside the their own territory, but would still be a single external entity, from a foreign perspective. That's imho the only way to do it, with any change of success.
If we look at the (hyper) successful Arab countries like the UAE, Oman, Saudi Arabia all are ruled by legitimate rulers from a tribal perspective. They do not have western style democracies. That model doesn't seem to work in that region for Arabs. So why would we think that Palastinians could make a democracy work? They are basically already one party dictatorships - that being PLO, and Hamas (i.e. failed state model). Why not make a legitimate dictatorship by making the heads of the local tribes rulers. Similar to the UAE. So instead of a two state solution a ~10 state solution.
And in this model Jerusalem would be the capital of the United Emirates of Palestine, so everyone has the claim, without anyone having to give it up.
It is an absurd proposition that Pals should not have equal rights in their own country or should have second class status to Jews. The problem is Jewish supremacy and apartheid which are anathema to morality, the law, and democracy. You are clearly not a Palestinian or an Arab. The people have a right to self determination. To say the Arabs are not suited to democracy is absurd and racist. What you claim about legitimacy under tribal grounds isn't even true. The autocratic regimes have an evident crisis of legitimacy. Haven't read anything as orientalist in a long time.
@@ansan_84 Name one Arab country with a functioning democracy. Your assumption that I think their race has anything to do with Arabs not having functioning democracies is absurd and shows yourown racism.
There is no Jewish supremacy nor apartheid in Israel. They don't register someone's ethnic or religious background, unlike several Muslim states. Nor do they force non-Jews to pay jizyah, or disregard non-Jewish judges when adjudicating Jews. Any citizen has equal rights under the law, this includes Arab Muslims. Again unlike multiple Muslim states, that have ethnically cleansed their non-Muslim populations. And/or have laws that apply to non-Muslims and a separate set of laws that apply to Muslims.
If you're so concerned with apartheid and racism why aren't you campaigning against those Muslim states, and their racist laws? What about the equal rights and the right of return of the Christians and Jews in those countries? Those countries have real racism and apartheid.
Again it is NOT apartheid to not grant the rights of citizens to foreigners. This is what every state does, it discriminates between a citizens and foreigners (i.e. a non citizens). Citizens are subject to the law of the state. Palestinians do not pay tax to the state of Israel, do not recognize its laws and statutes and do not identify as its citizens. So it's only logical and fair they do not benifit from the state they do not recognize. If they want to benifit they should immigrate and apply for citizenship. Once obtained they can enjoy the same benefit as any other citizen.
Back to Arab states and democracy. There are 22 Arab states. Of all those, non is a functioning democracy. You really think the 23th time will do the trick? Or do you want an other failed Arab state? Of those 22 Arab countries, the only ones that have a successful, peaceful state that stands on its own, are the ones that have a tribal governmental structure. Thus we should encourage the replication of success, not of failure.
@@ilanbouwmeester6838 You are clearly an anti-Arab racist, pro-Zionist denier of facts so I won't engage with you. I encourage people to read the South Africa brief at the ICJ and consider the claims in it seriously, which rely heavily on Israeli sources which acknowledge apartheid, show genocidal intent.
I am from Pakistan converted Christian and your new subscriber.
Lakum deenukum wa liya deen_ - To you be your religion, and to me my religion ...
As long as you are happy and content in your new religion we wish you all the best..🎉
Porque os os Religiosos querem idolatria com Imagens e não compromisso com a vontade Do Criador!?#
In the spirit of offending as many people as possible, as per the podcast. The claim of timestamp 54:55 that the church is the new Israel, reminds me rather of revelations 2:9.
...ܐܝܠܝܢ ܕܐܡܪܝܢ ܢܦܫܗܘܢ ܝܗܘܕܝܐ, ܝܗܘܕܝܐ ܟܕ ܠܐ ܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܐܠܐ ܟܢܘܫܬܐ ܕܣܛܢܐ
anyone who claims to be a Jew (i.e. Israel), and is not is from the council of Satan.
Thoughts?
A common enemy unites far more compellingly than a common love and respect in the current fallen state of man.
And those who seek power know this best of all.
I see no realistic solution.
Daniel is spot on.
Jesus is the solution.
Always has been.
Thanks for this informative video. I once held to the notion of Christian Zionism until I understood not only the typological use of the Old Testament but the recent history of the region. Great discussion.
I have an unrelated question. If someone who is not ethnically Syriac or Coptic but desires to convert to Oriental Orthodoxy, is that person treated as as a full member like those who are ethnic?
Yes, you can become a full member of the church.
Sorry for the delay in replying. Sometimes the comment box gets really full. There are many who are not ethnically Syriac or Coptic but are Orthodox. The faithful among these communities accept anyone as a "full member." Those who are less than faithful may not even accept people in their own congregation who are from a different village or region! The Church is a hospital for those who are ill, and some are more aware of that than others.
I think it really depends, I personally feel like copts tend to be more wary of outsiders than syriacs, but that's just a personal and limited experience
nice discussion ❤❤❤
Thank you very much!
Very interesting indeed never heard this before
Michael, I was researching another subject and was blessed to find your channel!! I will be definitely subscribe! I know this is not the proper video to ask this question on, so I apologize, and I pray you'll forgive me. It's just that I figured there would be a greater chance of you seeing my comment here as this video is only 3 days old.
Before I ask my question, if you'll indulge me I'll explain where I'm coming from. In your Aramaic "In The New Testament" series you didn't address the most important word in the entire New Testament. That being the word Edtha/Edta. It's usually translated in English as "Assembly" or "Church", as is the Greek (G1577) "Ekklesia". To my knowledge this word is uniquely linked to the same sacred "time" and "place" meaning shared by Hebrew words derived from other Ayin-Dalet (ED) root-words. Words like MoED, EDuth, EDah, EDen, ect., etc.. This understanding also agrees with the descriptive English word translated "saints", from the Chaldee/Aramaic "Qadishe" (H6922-Dan 7:25 & Acts 9:32), and/or the Greek (G40) "hagios", which derives from the Hebrew (H2282) "Chag", meaning "Festival, Feast, Festival-Gathering", from (H2287) "Chagag", meaning "to hold a feast, hold a festival, make a pilgrimage, keep a pilgrim-feast, celebrate, dance, stagger, to reel, properly to move in a circle", i.e. Hebraic circle-dancing "Chag" (Foot-Festival/s) that the first Commandment keeping disciples of Yeshu, MarYa and Meshikha were instructed to "observe an do" by Him in Mat 23:1-3 kept, as well as the Messiah's Gentile followers that were obviously expected to learn and observe as evidenced by Jacob's (James') words recorded in Acts 15:20-21. What other reason could possibly exist for Jacob's suggestion that the Apostles write to GENTILES to tell them to "abstain" from those things recorded in the Law of Moses in Ex 20:2-6, Lev 17:7, Ex 20:14, Lev 18:1-30, Lev 20:11-21, Gen 9:4, Lev 17:10-16 and Deut 12:23-24? And then, why is Jacob even mentioning "Moses" "being read in the synagogues every Sabbath Day" if the Gentiles weren't expected to "observe and do" the same Renewed (H2319 - chadash) Covenant Law? Yeshu said He didn't come to destroy the Law or the Prophets in Mat 5:17. In my mind, these "Appointments" were, and are, to be kept by the Messiah's "Qadishe". Keeping YHWH/Yeshu's Commandments (including His "Sabbaths") is our "righteousness" (Deut 6:25), and how we know we're "sanctified" (Ex 31:13, Eze 20:12, 20, Heb 4:4-9), and keeping these are what makes us His "Qadishe." See Jn 14:15 -15:27. Fearing YHWH (Yeshu), and keeping His Commandments, is "the whole duty of man." (Ecc 12:13)
Now that I've explained all that Michael, would you PLEASE consider making one more video to add to your In the New Testament series, one about the meaning of the "EDtha/EDta?? If there's anyone that could present this topic from it's proper Hebraic/Aramaic perspective, it would be you. 👴👍
Sincerely,
TD Reha
First off, thank you for all the kind words and the excellent comment. I feel like I have mentioned this in a previous video (maybe not in that series), or maybe I just mention it in class so often I forget where and when I said it. But you're absolutely right to observe the uniqueness of the Syriac word for "Church." I'll consider making some more videos when I get past a few major deadlines coming up. Thanks again!
@@ProfessorMichaelWingert Thank You Sir. In the meantime, if our Father's Ruach should happen to bring to mind discussing Edtha/Edta in a previous video, if indeed you did discuss it, please let me know. I will certainly be attently listening for the word while watching more of your videos, now that I've found your channel.
I pray our Father's Shalom be upon you and your loved ones in these days.
From Des Moines, Iowa. USA.
Sincerely,
TD Reha
PS. If you're aware of any studies concerning the word "Edtha/Edta" that you could direct me to it would be highly appreciated. There is some information I can share with you that you might appreciate. It's a certain pdf titled "chapter 17" written by Hebrew University Prof. Rachel Elior. It discusses some Hebrew "ED" words, as well as other topics. It's a fascinating read. The pdf's link is below.
pluto.huji.ac.il/~mselio/Chapter_17_Elior_FS_Final.PDF
Also, I've included a Google link (sorry, to link the actual YT link I would have had to leave this comment, causing it to be lost so I went to the Google search link. 😔) to a YT video that has two of Prof. Elior's lectures edited to play back-to-back.
www.google.com/search?q=rachel+elior+dead+sea+scrolls&client=ms-android-boostdish-us-revc&sca_esv=581232494&sxsrf=AM9HkKm9-zLufPSTbc7Z6xdcxeKbMki0Vg%3A1699632753907&ei=cVZOZfzcNqi60PEP5c-IsAM&oq=rachel+elior+&gs_lp=EhNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwIg1yYWNoZWwgZWxpb3IgKgIIAjIEECMYJzIEECMYJzIFEAAYgAQyBRAAGIAEMgUQLhiABDIGEAAYFhgeMgUQIRirAjIFECEYqwJIzUBQpxFYkRhwAHgAkAEAmAGyAaAB_QuqAQQxLjExuAEByAEA-AEBwgIIEAAYogQYsAPCAgUQIRigAeIDBBgBIEGIBgGQBgE&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2c47aeb0,vid:oVgYWuKX_4c,st:0
The YT link can be easily found doing a RUclips video search for "Dead Sea Scrolls...". It's the video with the thumbnail picture of a waterfront with a clock on the beach.
Nevermind all that. 😁
Here's the YT link.
👴👍
ruclips.net/video/oVgYWuKX_4c/видео.htmlsi=1IuzRy-vdcv-2std
The English word ‘saint’ comes from the Welsh (Cymraeg) ‘sant ‘.
Welsh is the senior language of Britain and can be traced to Syria.
Christianity was brought to Britain by Joseph of Arimathea ‘in the last year of Tiberius’.
Christianity was taken to Rome by the family of Caradog (a.k.a. Caractacus), High king and Pendragon of Britain (I.e., Senior son and top general of Bran who was monarch).
Timothy 2 : 4 : 21…
Linus was son of Caradog and first bishop of Rome (not Peter).
Claudia took this name on her adoption by Claudius and marriage to Rufus Pudens: she was Eurgain, natural daughter of Caradog and known to the Britons by her title ‘Gwladys’ (top countrywoman).
As Jesus said, Jerusalem (land of peace) will never see peace until He comes again
Under Islamic rules holy land was in peace for 1000 years peace
There is certainly an argument for that between the end of the European crusades and the end of the Ottoman period.
@@AhmedMehmed-is7jj a false peace is not the goal. The same could be said about the pagan roman empire. It peace lasted for more than 2 centuries when their pagan roots and religion were still in the people’s conscious and in the center of their society. Even if i grant you that Jerusalem was in peace under islamic rule. That still wouldn’t change the fact that islamic rule is tyrannical, unjust and requires submission and compromise of the dhimmis for their to have been that peace in Jerusalem. In short, the crusades weren’t unprovoked acts of aggression against a peaceful muslim leadership in palestine.
@@AhmedMehmed-is7jj Peace...while Christians were being martyred, enslaved, raped, forcibly converted, and turned into dhimis by the Caliphate. Many Islamic rulers were also sodomites who had ways with boys. Muhammad was a heretic and if you subscribe to his heresy then you are naturally at enmity against the Truth. Jesus Christ of Nazareth was crucified, was buried, is risen, and he is God almighty. And all who say differently it is because Satan has lied to them and they need Christ, repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!!
@@AhmedMehmed-is7jj Christians are to view followers of Muhammad the same way the Early Church dealt with followers of Nestorius, Arius, and the Gnostics. We should stick up for Orthodoxy and defend the Truth against the heretics. That doesn't mean we don't love you, we are commanded by Christ to love everyone, but we are also commanded to hate sin, to rebuke sin, and to stand boldly against false prophets (like Muhammad) and those who spread lies about our Lord Jesus Christ.
I liked the remark one of you made, for both sides of conflict, they’ll never have peace until they have the prince of peace, our Lord Jesus Christ (Maran Eshoo Mshiha). Let us pray for that daily.
It is the only way. Any side posses the most power they’ll abuse it against the other, unless if they follow the moral values our Lord taught us “Love your enemies” and forgive limitlessly.
I don't think western christians should weigh in on it personally.
I really don't know who to support in this issue. This feels to me like those wars of the European feudal period in which a king dies without a heir, but has 2 daughters married to neighbouring kings, and now those kings will fight each other to see who inherits the kingdom of their wives, with both exactly the same rights and legitimacy. Both the Jews and Palestinians seem to have equally good claims and rights to the land, and they seem unwilling to live together. Palestinians sing from the river to the sea, implying erradication of Jews, and Israel is meant to be a Jewish state, Jews don't want to be a minority in a muslim majority country like Copts or Maronites, so, they can't live together in the same State.
I think the best solution is a peace imposed from above by the United States, with military bases that will make Israel feel safe despite being an extremely narrow country without the West Bank. But the biggest obstacle to that is the USA seems very willing to always do what Israel wants.
Its seems that way...but on a deeper lever the usa is a big part of the problem for its support of terrorism from both of its political parties...they dont really stand for israel..they just want to have power over the people there...and that includes all of the people..
It is a stereotype that Copts and Maronites are anti-Arab and separatists. Having lived in Egypt and Lebanon and friends of both groups I know it is not true. Palestinians generally support a democratic state with equal rights and want self determination. This isn't a complicated moral or political issue to most fairminded people. Either a two state solution or a single democratic state with equal rights and right of return to Pal refugees. It would have been informative if the host had on a Pal Arab or considered the views of indigenous Pals like Rev Mitri Raheb, Munther Isaac, or Daniel Bannoura.
Shammas speaks of not feeling included among Pals in the US yet is upset that other Christians have an Arab identity and identify not by religion first and separately. It is hard to reconcile his Christian separatism with wanting inclusion as part of a national identity. It may not make sense to him because he is not Arab culturally and doesn't identify with Arabs, but instead as an Assyrian and Christian first.
Kakish mentioned a video with a Saudi named "Rawaf" calling Palestinians "remnants of the people" not Arabs. I would be interested in knowing who that Saudi was, but the view isn't indicative of most Saudis, even tribal ones, who have a nuanced understanding of Arab identity, the Palestinian cause, etc. If the video was more recent then it's important to situate it politically.
I think that he was referring to this video.
ruclips.net/video/Zz1V1zLwy3g/видео.html
@@ProfessorMichaelWingert Thanks. He is a regime ideologue. Can't take his views seriously. Recent polling in the NYT showed 96% of Saudis are in support of Pals, reject normalization, and urge Arab states with ties to break them and impose consequences to get Israel to stop the genocide. So, this anti-Pal talking head isn't indicative of Saudi public opinion by any means. He is meant to sow discord and disinformation.
His prophet's grandfather is buried in Gaza
JOSEPH CAIAPHAS, THE HIGH PRIEST OF JERUSALEM WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CRUCIFIXION OF OUR LORD JESUS. It's a blasphemy for the Christians to support the murderers of our Lord!😢
Mark 8, 33 ...But turning and seeing his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man."
You are completely wrong. It's not blasphemy to support Israel. in fact it's our duty to support Israel and pray for Jerusalem.
Romans 15:26-27)
ሕጂ ግና መቄዶንያን ኣካይያን ነቶም ኣብ የሩሳሌም ዘለዉ ናይ ቅዱሳን ድኻታት ገንዘብ ኬዋጽኡ ፈትዮም ስለ ዘለዉ፡ ነቶም ቅዱሳን እናኣገልገልኩ ናብ የሩሳሌም እኸይድ ኣሎኹ።
27
ሰሚሮምዎ እዮም እሞ፡ ሰብ ኢዶምውን እዩም። ካብቲ መንፈሳዊ ርካቦም እቶም ኣህዛብ ካብ ተማቐሉስ፡ ንሳቶም ድማ በቲ ንስጋኦም ዜድሊ ኼገልግልዎም፡ ዚግባእ.
روما ()
اسْتَحْسَنُوا ذلِكَ، وَإِنَّهُمْ لَهُمْ مَدْيُونُونَ! لأَنَّهُ إِنْ كَانَ الأُمَمُ قَدِ اشْتَرَكُوا فِي رُوحِيَّاتِهِمْ، يَجِبُ عَلَيْهِمْ أَنْ يَخْدِمُوهُمْ فِي الْجَسَدِيَّاتِ أَيْضًا.
Romans 15:27
27..For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
If you are Christian you must know, Jesus’ death was the final sacrifice that paid the debt of sin for all (Hebrews 9:28). His death was the ultimate purpose of His ministry. In fact, Jesus predicted His death at least three times. Jesus knew that His death must happen. It was necessary in God’s plan to save the world.
You look like tyson fury professor michael wingert
You're the second person to make that comment this year. He's twice the size of me and is certainly a better striker than I am.
@@ProfessorMichaelWingert 😂🤣
Tiheh, Towdi sagi mhaymene ❤
Thank you!