still waiting to the dual trebb. aka car drive in. in ´´apphökällütz?? däims sehr should still be söme aRounD..? or well the nearest mountänn ränge v v 300kg vs brick -.- vvöll > > || ps a tiltäbbel rötätabbel nevermind we still havent dieguesstät the last mönö! rail günz -.-
It’s so cool that Joe’s technique biomechanically ended up looking so similar to medieval art. Seems necessary to engage the full musculature of the back.
Once you've seen Joe, you see anyone else with a bow and you think: good lord no, you don't hold the bow out in front of you, what are you doing? You need to be in line with the bow. Of course I can't do it, but I know what it looks like...
The first arrow he sent for distance, I had to pause and rewind to watch it again. His movements are posture are just gorgeous. I'd love to see that analyzed by a biomechanical scientist of some sort. Fascinating.
I really love your integrity that you raised the money to do what you wanted and now you're doing it and not necessarily looking for more funds. Fantastic. Plus your videos are always super interesting anyway.
@@zooq1139 uhm, without knowing his numbers its difficult to say. One of the brickys I work with is 5 ft 8 and 105 kg, my dad in his prime was 95 kg and 5ft 6. Joe doesn't look as heavily built as either of them, granted, he isn't far off but the camera can be decieving. But as with most physical activities, once you have the base requisite of strength, then its much more about the technique
You can knock some of that down with beaver balls and the like but yeah, bows do make a decent amount of noise. Crossbows are even louder and they're harder to knock down the noise on too.
Hunting weight longbow with linen string and matching arrows barely makes a sound, even when shooting inside and every sound is louder than outside. So yeah, depending on the bow, a bow can be very quiet or very loud. Hunting weight longbow is leathal for humans, but cannot pierce armor, maybe mail with a needle podkin, but if it has badding underneath, wouldn't possibly go through enough to cause serious injury.
You can set up a bow to be pretty quiet. Joes bow is obviously a warbow so they didn't care about those sorts of things. Longbows by nature are actually one of the more quiet bow types, if this was lower in poundage i would suspect it to be much quieter.
Seeing Joe shoot is such a pleasure. Just the sound of the trees moving, the birds singing and that string snapping back as the arrows fly. I can definetly see how lads did this for hours on end back in the day.
You might think that an "arrows vs armor" contest might leave one of the two as the "loser" of the challenge, but it absolutely didn't. You really have to see a tank like Joe working a proper warbow to understand with what kind of a weapon they were dealing back then. Massive respect to the bowyers who made such weapons, the fletchers who created the ammunition to handle those forces, the archers who were capable of weilding such a demanding weapon and to the blacksmiths who created designs that were capable of standing their ground against it.
I’ve already incorporated your findings into an archer-centric fantasy novel I’m writing, and can’t wait to learn more! Thank you guys for your service to our community!
Every time i see a video from Tod like this, i have to smile. Tod's excitement and joy is so heartwarming and contagious. Thanks Tod for this great content, thanks Joe for being awesome. Keep it up you great people
The mental effects of an arrow storm are extremely interesting. One effect I'm curious about would be trying to advance across arrow strewn ground while keeping your eyes on your enemy. The frustration of tripping/stubbing your toe on arrows would be most irksome I assume.
Arrow shafts are not easily snapped and I have often considered the same. keeping on your feet is not a convenience, it is a necessity to life in a battle so yes I suspect it could be a real serious problem
From what I've read about the ground at Agincourt in particular, if you fell you were pretty much screwed. Laid out on sticky mud more than a foot deep. Best case scenario, your squire or page makes the run to help you to your feet. Worst case scenario, you're face down, watching the muddy water rise in your visor until it covers your mouth and nose.
@@christopherreed4723 i heard that's how the Duke of York at time died, he fell face first into the mud and some other knights/men fell and died on top of him suffocating him in his own armour
As they're shot at you, stepping in them probably just snaps or lowers them to the ground as they're pointing down away from you. If they'd been shot from behind you(e.g. If your own archers had been shooting at the enemy) then walking into arrows acting like mini-stakes would be a nuisance & tripping possible.
I'm so looking forward to this future video. Joe Gibbs is an amazing archer and bowman. I know I can't make bows. I'm watching you doing the tilling and your like "You see how this one bends a little more than the other...." and I'm like, "No I don't see it."
I know this isn't something you see much, but I wanted to share a few experiences I've had this year in the hopes that it helps someone in need. Love you all.
It would be amazing if they could do all that with a heavy crossbow as well for comparison. Maybe do all the shots with the warbow first and if the armor is still 100% functional afterwards, do it with a windlass crossbow as well. I feel like this would be a very nice bonus, since a lot of people speculate whether a heavy medieval windlass crossbow outperforms a heavy warbow in terms of penetration power, but nobody seems to actually know. I know that Skal has done some tests vs armor with a windlass crossbow, but never against anything like authentic top tier plate armor. Either way, I am so looking forward to this!
My guess from the footage that Tod and others have put out, is that a reasonably heavy crossbow would still be outperformed (penetration and kinetic energy-wise) by a warbow like the one Joe shoots.
Yeah, Heavy crossbows are usually outperformed by Warbows. The exception is if you are facing ancient Chinese crossbows. Then it tends to swings the other direction. Because China... China somehow has to have some really advanced shit for some reason. :P
@@thejackinati2759 cos the Chinese crossbows are much longer and are more like heavy-rated shortbows on sticks, so far more power-efficient than European crossbows--which are about 10% efficient. Which Tod has demonstrated with a modern 160 lb crossbow compared to a 1,000 lb mediaeval design where the modern crossbow won on power and range.
@@thejackinati2759 I'm no expert by any means, but their incredible power was in large part to their long draw lengths, since they used long (composite) wooden laths instead of the shorter, less efficient European steel prods. While they usually did not have the ludicrous draw weights that some of the heavier European crossbows achieved (1300 frickin' pounds!), they were much more efficient because of their higher powerstroke (the bolt being accelerated for longer), not to mention material. I'm not sure as to why Europeans had such a radically different approach to crossbows, aside from perhaps being more practical in a fortification setting or behind a pavis, for example.
Was just thinking the same thing! Even in the last AvA vid I genuinely marveled at Joe's stance. That and the fact that he's built like a tank, changed my perception of medieval bowmen for good.
It gives you a great image of what a lot of archers must have been like. Pretty burly guys and the stance is exactly as it is in the artwork. That only further strengthens the argument that they shot flat and at relatively close ranges - the stances are so similar to Joe here and the art almost never shows them shooting up into the air. So it's very much a close range direct shooting weapon.
I don't know if they're available in England but, over here there is a company that makes ballistics gel "zombie" torsos and heads including a realistic bone structure under the "skin" and green blood. Those would give an effective representation of the penetrating power through the armor and the likelihood of a "kill" shot.
Look at that beautiful green English countryside. I remember when I traveled to England when I was younger and saw it from the plane and thought, "wow it's so green, everywhere!"
With a knight being pummelled by 70-80g arrows even if they're clattering off his armour I think the blunt force has gotta be pretty painful on top of the psychological effects you guys discuss.
Yeah. Once or twice you might pass off as an annoyance; once they start getting into the double digits as you cross the field, those are going to eat away at your stamina.
Yeah, I asked a question similar to this. After watching most of the movie seeing the shots hitting his shoulder. I guess that if you hit him right, even though he is patted and in plate, that has to have some impact.
I'm thinking arrows could be significantly heavier as well. Qing Dynasty Manchu archers used huge arrows the size of small javelins that are 40 or more inches long and have a 15 GPP and up, so they would need a 155 or heavier gram arrow for a bow of 160 lbs in draw weight. I don't think English longbows used nearly as heavy GPP for their arrow weights, but they could probably get into the low 100s grams or more depending on the arrowhead.
It's impressive how little elevation you need for a 70g arrow at 50m. Even deflected by armor I can't imagine it feels too good to get hit by one of those. That helmet strike surely would have rung his bell!
For a 160 lbf bow, a 70 gram arrow is actually pretty light - it's only 6.75 grains per pound. A heavy arrow for a longbow would be more like 10 to 11 grains per pound, which for a 160 lbf bow would translate to ~104 to ~114 grams, or roughly a quarter pound. Arrows weighing that much would fly slower than 70 gram arrows, but they'd have ~12-14% more kinetic energy at launch and they'd retain their kinetic energy better over distance because they'd be subjected to lower drag force due to their lower velocity. This is more what I expect these bows' arrows intended for piercing plate armour would have weighed. A light 70 gram arrow, if they used them in late medieval warfare, would have been better suited to long range harassment of lightly armoured targets.
@Beertie Wooster - Quarter pound arrows were common for East Asian Manchu bows and would not be improbable for English longbows. Qing Dynasty Manchu archers used huge arrows the size of small javelins that are 40 or more inches long and have a 15 GPP and up, so they would need a 155 or heavier gram arrow for a bow of 160 lbs in draw weight. 155 grams is already .34 lbs, or a bit over one third of a pound. I don't think English longbows used nearly as heavy GPP for their arrow weights, but they could probably get into the low 100s grams or more depending on the arrowhead.
Yeah, some of those things are beasts... though I'd say their arrows are more like darts than arrows. Wouldn't surprise me if you can get over 200J with them.
Thank you, Tod and Joe - I can't wait for the 'real thing' now! In the old, first video Intoned that Joe's stance/posture when shooting is just as in the various pictures of bowmen in medieval sources. It was evident again today. That shows that those medieval painters drew their pictures correctly. One other thing that might be of interest for later: Tod, I've seen an arrowhead used by cossacks which had what can best be described as a sickle-form had. Have you ver seen something like that? Thanks again to Tod and all who work on this venture!
Was that arrow head with the concave side facing the direction of flight? If so, I believe those were often used for bird hunting. Although it could also be used against other targets too obviously.
Yes the crescent headed arrows range over millennia and the world. The same pattern can be found in flint, bronze and steel and from the Americas to China and from the arctic to Southern Africa. Birds
Watch Joe's back arch when he's firing, that's where the power comes from, not his arms. Archer's skeletons were found with deformed spines from firing the longbow. Amazing stuff, this video.
Those arrows at that distance and weight is scary as all get out. Amazing job gentlemen, and thank you for all of your hard work and research. It gives so much more knowledge than the common speculation model that we've seen so much in the past.
@@tods_workshop Well, while others continue to speculate, this channel continues to time and time again produce excellent content that can be seen and trusted. Thank you so much for putting in the hard work where others only put talk and fluff!!
I've been researching and studying bow making for months and bought a couple hand tools so I could start. Getting wood staves is very difficult around me, mean while Mr. Gibbs has lots that he's not gonna use lol I'm not mad btw and Mr. Gibbs I respect your skills and talent
@@tods_workshop I made a bollock dagger after watching one of your videos, now I'm going to get some ash and make some bows! Your videos are inspirational. Can't wait for AVA2
Excellent video, and Tod interviewing Joe means that we got a very neat look at the process of making the bows, with just enough detail to be interesting, without getting bogged down in little details too much. Yes, passion and enthusiasm are great, but Tod's instinct for what actually interests viewers remains the thing that puts this channel so far above the average youtube fare.
I feel so excited about this upcoming arrows verses armour project. I hope there will eventually be more investigative projects like this in the future.👍
Tod, I've said it before and I'll probably say it again in the future, but I am so happy that you have good captions on your films. So many content creators on youtube, even with huge subscriber counts, don't do it and even for someone without hearing issues like me it can be so useful. Good on you for doing it even when not forced to! Also I hope to buy some of your products someday, after I have had my 40s/50s khukri from my English Nana restored.
Great video again and I can't wait for the testing. One thing I'd love to see added to the testing if possible is to see how hard the impact is inside the armour. Yeah the BP can stop the arrow but how much does it still hurt inside. In the original video you saw the gel rippling from the impact, so does it still hit hard enough to cause serious bruising or even crack a rib... which would seriously impact the ability to fight even if they did get up close. I know you can buy impact stickers that measure if somethings been dropped or hit so some of these of varying measures inside the BP would be interesting.
I was happy to support the project on Kickstarter. I'm so glad you've gotten all the support you could need. I look forward to seeing what new insights are gained. 👍🏻
I'm glad you decided to put this video out despite not needing the promotion is was intended to provide. It is always a pleasure to see a craftsman and enthusiast discussing workmanship and demonstrating skills, and by the look of it, having a jolly good time while doing so :D
I assume that an actual infantry attack would have at least 2-3 ranks of depth and be closely spaced if not shoulder to shoulder. Under those circumstances, all of the shots at 50m are hitting an opponent. Further, the range of those shots wasn't replicated with a single solider infantry weapon until the late 1800s. While rifles absolutely existed, their peak rate of fire never came close to a bow and they were unable to sustain even the 2-3 shots/minute of a 75m smoothbore musket. Put another way, the longbow's combination of range, rate of fire and SUSTAINED rate of fire was matched only by crew served artillery until breech loading black powder arms in the 1860s. Thank you so much for doing all of the work to demonstrate this history to those of us who lack these skills. This is archaeology in every sense of the word.
Cool as shit. I really can't wait to see where this series goes. Mad respect to Joe for being able to craft and shoot those monsters. What a legend! Thanks for the vid Tod.
The way you can see him flow with his shooting in the bow is incredible, like all his muscles are extending with the powerband the bow has. Just remarkable.
Justin Ma has some videos on his channel The Way of Archery that break down the technique for shooting heavy bows. He focuses on Chinese archery, but the techniques for shooting heavy bows are very similar across cultures. Justin also happens to be a friend of Joe's.
wicked shooting joe. stand by comments from the first film tod Agincourt was won by bows. sure looking forward to the real test. thanks for the great episode!
Given the pace Joe takes, 3 in the air easy, even with full draw before he pivots up. Amazing shooting! The muscle control is incredible. Always a pleasure to watch, and looking forward to the new testing. All the best DC
@@tods_workshop Makes me wonder what kind of absolute monster archers must've existed through the ages. Guys as large as the Mountain from GoT with the precision of movement of a Swiss watch.
245 meters!!!! Imagine a hail of a 1000 arrows coming at you before you can even make out the enemy! Would be interesting to know what was the maximum range these were shot at in a battle.
That was 25m and 50m with a big degradation in accuracy and punching power. 245 would not have been an efficient range for killshots, maybe for harassment or provocation, but not what you would want to waste your arrows on.
@@mangalores-x_x I think it would depend on what you're shooting at, if your target is mounted the horses are not going to appreciate being stuck with possibly multiple arrows.
I wonder what the dangerous parts of getting hit by an arrow that is basically coming down at knights. Would the probability of hitting the upper chest or other vial parts increase or decrease? When shooting from 25 or 50 meters. The arrow is gonna fly at a much shallower angle than at 245 meters
The maximum arrow range, is also the maximum war shot range. For example a battle of towton, the other side was shooting against the wind, and couldn't reach the enemy and while the enemy could reach them cus they shot with the wind. Also for example in ancient Egypt, their enemies were using composite bows and could out shoot the Egyptian archers with their self bows, and because of that, Egyptians also took composite bow to their armies to be able to compete against the enemies range advantage. I suppose this is the reason whe basically the whole asia and half of europe quickly adopted the composite bow.
Thumbs-up from the thumbnail alone; the fact someone took the time to re-draw a classic "ivan" target into a man-at-arms target is worth a chuckle all by itself
Wow, that is so impressing! The skill of Joe is just unreal! I imagine an army of these bows with skilled archers is absolutely deadly! Thank you very much for these videos!
A long while back I did some calculations for Agincourt. The area the French could move through was less than 50 meters wide due to the boggy conditions from the excessive rainfall If we just take 1000 archers (there were a lot more than this according to every account I have read), and that with all the adrenaline pumping I think an archer could take 6 shots per minute (I have seen 10 argued). So if we call it 50 meters, 6 per minute off 1000 archers that would be 2 arrows per second per meter. If we take a more realistic 2500 archers, and 35 meters it's a crazy 7 arrows per second. Just by weight of numbers something is going to hit something serious in 5 seconds or less. Also good to see a Joe Gibbs collaboration again!
I’ve only shot modern bows and older recurves, and nothing with a crazy draw weight like that. It’s so cool seeing the stance and posture work required to use that effectively. It makes me think about how often that was reflected in medieval artwork
At only 6.75 grains per pound, for a 160# longbow, a 70 gram arrow isn't heavy - it's actually quite light. It surprises me that Joe's longbow can shoot arrows that light repeatedly without getting damaged. An arrow for a bow like Joe's that would be heavy but still have a high enough launch velocity to give it a reasonably flat trajectory would weigh 10 - 11 grains per pound, which for a 160# bow translates to ~104 - 114 grams, or about a quarter pound. An arrow in that weight range would have ~12-14% more kinetic energy at launch than a 70 gram arrow and it would retain more of its kinetic energy down range because its lower velocity means it would be subjected to lower drag force. Having 12-14% more kinetic energy might not sound like a big deal, but it means being able to penetrate a few tenths of a millimetre more plate armour. In the late medieval period, that could have spelt the difference between being effective and ineffective against a given armoured target.
As a guy who just moved to shooting 30lb the idea of 100lb being the light end is absolutely shocking. That is serious training and physicality to draw that weight at all, let alone well enough to hit a target.
Awesome seeing Joe shoot those heavy warbow, with Tods Passion for it. Can't wait for the next installment..Il keep shooting my self made bows.ie my 90lb Welsh Yew Bow.
Can't believe it's been 3 years already since the Arrows Versus Armor video. I still watch it regularly. You guys are fantastic.
I've sent that video to so many people. Continues to be a great reference.
versus
@@Likexner It's gotta be a word in some language. I spoke it out loud and it spelled it. I didn't even think to correct the spelling.
@@Likexner Except that I'm an idiot. Verses is a word, as in bible verses. Forget I exist.
@@legacyShredder1 Its cool man, you dont need to beat yourself up over it.
Be it bows, darts, trebuchets, or weird weapons it's a good day when Tod releases new content.
Absolutely true dat!
Agree!
Trebuchet bolt rain vs armor would be amazing :O I mean, probably woudn't do jack, but it would be cool to watch and listen.
still waiting to the dual trebb.
aka car drive in. in ´´apphökällütz?? däims sehr should still be söme aRounD..?
or well the nearest mountänn ränge v v
300kg vs brick -.- vvöll > > || ps a tiltäbbel rötätabbel nevermind we still havent dieguesstät the last mönö! rail günz -.-
Agree
It’s so cool that Joe’s technique biomechanically ended up looking so similar to medieval art. Seems necessary to engage the full musculature of the back.
Agreed - it is absolutely the same
I thought the same thing, literally looks like drawings of the archers hunched over to shoot over walls.
Those pictures always looked so ridiculous, but yep they're spot on. I am shocked.
Once you've seen Joe, you see anyone else with a bow and you think: good lord no, you don't hold the bow out in front of you, what are you doing? You need to be in line with the bow.
Of course I can't do it, but I know what it looks like...
The first arrow he sent for distance, I had to pause and rewind to watch it again. His movements are posture are just gorgeous. I'd love to see that analyzed by a biomechanical scientist of some sort. Fascinating.
I really love your integrity that you raised the money to do what you wanted and now you're doing it and not necessarily looking for more funds. Fantastic. Plus your videos are always super interesting anyway.
Thanks Sandy, but you are correct, we have all we need for this round
@@tods_workshop Flex Goal time? Or is it going to fund futur films?
If more people did this the world would be a better, more trustworthy place. Pure class
@@tods_workshop what about a stretch goal to test the latest Lars Andersen non-historic bow that can pierce armour? 😀
Joe is an absolute unit.
It's like he's hewn from granite.
Preach!
Like Joe, I work in the building industry. To be honest, I was expecting him to have been bigger in stature
@@jukeseyable id say the dude is about as big/dense as it gets for his height, without packing on excess fat
@@zooq1139 uhm, without knowing his numbers its difficult to say. One of the brickys I work with is 5 ft 8 and 105 kg, my dad in his prime was 95 kg and 5ft 6. Joe doesn't look as heavily built as either of them, granted, he isn't far off but the camera can be decieving. But as with most physical activities, once you have the base requisite of strength, then its much more about the technique
It never ceases to amaze me how loud those bows are. Hollywood/Video Games make them "Stealth" weapons, but they are seriously loud.
Yes, but bows always creak in films
You can knock some of that down with beaver balls and the like but yeah, bows do make a decent amount of noise. Crossbows are even louder and they're harder to knock down the noise on too.
Hunting weight longbow with linen string and matching arrows barely makes a sound, even when shooting inside and every sound is louder than outside. So yeah, depending on the bow, a bow can be very quiet or very loud. Hunting weight longbow is leathal for humans, but cannot pierce armor, maybe mail with a needle podkin, but if it has badding underneath, wouldn't possibly go through enough to cause serious injury.
You can set up a bow to be pretty quiet. Joes bow is obviously a warbow so they didn't care about those sorts of things. Longbows by nature are actually one of the more quiet bow types, if this was lower in poundage i would suspect it to be much quieter.
Beautiful Sound too!
Joe made a bow for my daughters 7th birthday this year and it truly is a masterpiece. Such talent and a decent bloke as well. Well done Mr Gibbs!
160 pounder?
Did you place the order through facebook? I'm interested myself.
Seeing Joe shoot is such a pleasure. Just the sound of the trees moving, the birds singing and that string snapping back as the arrows fly. I can definetly see how lads did this for hours on end back in the day.
You might think that an "arrows vs armor" contest might leave one of the two as the "loser" of the challenge, but it absolutely didn't.
You really have to see a tank like Joe working a proper warbow to understand with what kind of a weapon they were dealing back then.
Massive respect to the bowyers who made such weapons, the fletchers who created the ammunition to handle those forces, the archers who were capable of weilding such a demanding weapon and to the blacksmiths who created designs that were capable of standing their ground against it.
I’ve already incorporated your findings into an archer-centric fantasy novel I’m writing, and can’t wait to learn more! Thank you guys for your service to our community!
A pleasure
Link the book here when ready!
Awesome! Always enjoyable when authors can use such works of experimental archeology to improve the versimilitude of their worlds.
Joe is very cool, and it is great to hear that all the funding was found for this project.
Every time i see a video from Tod like this, i have to smile. Tod's excitement and joy is so heartwarming and contagious. Thanks Tod for this great content, thanks Joe for being awesome. Keep it up you great people
Thanks - appreciated
The mental effects of an arrow storm are extremely interesting. One effect I'm curious about would be trying to advance across arrow strewn ground while keeping your eyes on your enemy. The frustration of tripping/stubbing your toe on arrows would be most irksome I assume.
Arrow shafts are not easily snapped and I have often considered the same. keeping on your feet is not a convenience, it is a necessity to life in a battle so yes I suspect it could be a real serious problem
From what I've read about the ground at Agincourt in particular, if you fell you were pretty much screwed. Laid out on sticky mud more than a foot deep. Best case scenario, your squire or page makes the run to help you to your feet. Worst case scenario, you're face down, watching the muddy water rise in your visor until it covers your mouth and nose.
@@christopherreed4723 i heard that's how the Duke of York at time died, he fell face first into the mud and some other knights/men fell and died on top of him suffocating him in his own armour
As they're shot at you, stepping in them probably just snaps or lowers them to the ground as they're pointing down away from you. If they'd been shot from behind you(e.g. If your own archers had been shooting at the enemy) then walking into arrows acting like mini-stakes would be a nuisance & tripping possible.
It's hard to believe the first film was 3 years ago! I can't wait to see the follow-up.
I'm so looking forward to this future video. Joe Gibbs is an amazing archer and bowman. I know I can't make bows. I'm watching you doing the tilling and your like "You see how this one bends a little more than the other...." and I'm like, "No I don't see it."
That's called experience and craftsmanship. Keep focusing on what you want to do and you'll suddenly be premiere at it.
You enjoy watching though. I’ve never made or used one. But like watching this channel. It’s relaxing.
@@Oooo-bi7bi Oh most definitely!
I was the same... " no, looks fine to me"!
I've got one yewbow made by Joe Gibbs and Hillbilly Bows. An absolute marvel of a yew bow! I cannot wait to the next arrows/warbows vs armor video.
That's cool! Out of curiosity, what's its draw weight (if that's the correct term) if you know?
@@felixmervamee7834 It's 78 ib (almost 35 kg) at 30-31". A very 'light' warbow.
I know this isn't something you see much, but I wanted to share a few experiences I've had this year in the hopes that it helps someone in need. Love you all.
I got one too! 110# @ 31". It truly is a beautiful piece of art! Had to wait around 6 months, but it was worth every minute.
That's a dream come true! Probably out of my price range, but what do they cost roughly?
One can only envy Tod for living THE life 24/7 following his actual passion 💪🙏
For sure.
It would be amazing if they could do all that with a heavy crossbow as well for comparison. Maybe do all the shots with the warbow first and if the armor is still 100% functional afterwards, do it with a windlass crossbow as well. I feel like this would be a very nice bonus, since a lot of people speculate whether a heavy medieval windlass crossbow outperforms a heavy warbow in terms of penetration power, but nobody seems to actually know. I know that Skal has done some tests vs armor with a windlass crossbow, but never against anything like authentic top tier plate armor. Either way, I am so looking forward to this!
My guess from the footage that Tod and others have put out, is that a reasonably heavy crossbow would still be outperformed (penetration and kinetic energy-wise) by a warbow like the one Joe shoots.
Yeah, Heavy crossbows are usually outperformed by Warbows.
The exception is if you are facing ancient Chinese crossbows. Then it tends to swings the other direction. Because China... China somehow has to have some really advanced shit for some reason. :P
would love to see that
@@thejackinati2759 cos the Chinese crossbows are much longer and are more like heavy-rated shortbows on sticks, so far more power-efficient than European crossbows--which are about 10% efficient. Which Tod has demonstrated with a modern 160 lb crossbow compared to a 1,000 lb mediaeval design where the modern crossbow won on power and range.
@@thejackinati2759 I'm no expert by any means, but their incredible power was in large part to their long draw lengths, since they used long (composite) wooden laths instead of the shorter, less efficient European steel prods. While they usually did not have the ludicrous draw weights that some of the heavier European crossbows achieved (1300 frickin' pounds!), they were much more efficient because of their higher powerstroke (the bolt being accelerated for longer), not to mention material. I'm not sure as to why Europeans had such a radically different approach to crossbows, aside from perhaps being more practical in a fortification setting or behind a pavis, for example.
Fascinating stuff. It makes Medieval Logistics even more astonishing. The arse-out loosing pose looks straight out of Medieval Art.
Was just thinking the same thing! Even in the last AvA vid I genuinely marveled at Joe's stance. That and the fact that he's built like a tank, changed my perception of medieval bowmen for good.
It gives you a great image of what a lot of archers must have been like. Pretty burly guys and the stance is exactly as it is in the artwork. That only further strengthens the argument that they shot flat and at relatively close ranges - the stances are so similar to Joe here and the art almost never shows them shooting up into the air. So it's very much a close range direct shooting weapon.
chad stance
Joe seems like such a pleasant and humble person. All the best to him!
thx for a good show guys
Glad to see you got funded so quickly. That was the easiest 15$ I've maybe ever spent. So excited.
Thanks - appreciated
I don't know if they're available in England but, over here there is a company that makes ballistics gel "zombie" torsos and heads including a realistic bone structure under the "skin" and green blood. Those would give an effective representation of the penetrating power through the armor and the likelihood of a "kill" shot.
They also cost about 500 usd
Or learn from JoergSprave about how to make German ballistic gelatin.
@@dark3031 Great name for Band, "German ballistic gelatin"!
Look at that beautiful green English countryside. I remember when I traveled to England when I was younger and saw it from the plane and thought, "wow it's so green, everywhere!"
Incredibly interesting video. I had no idea how much work went into a single bow.
With a knight being pummelled by 70-80g arrows even if they're clattering off his armour I think the blunt force has gotta be pretty painful on top of the psychological effects you guys discuss.
THIS.
Yeah. Once or twice you might pass off as an annoyance; once they start getting into the double digits as you cross the field, those are going to eat away at your stamina.
Yeah, I asked a question similar to this. After watching most of the movie seeing the shots hitting his shoulder. I guess that if you hit him right, even though he is patted and in plate, that has to have some impact.
I was just thinking that if I were the knight I would be really hoping my armorer didn't use cheap steel and that the metallurgy would hold up
I'm thinking arrows could be significantly heavier as well. Qing Dynasty Manchu archers used huge arrows the size of small javelins that are 40 or more inches long and have a 15 GPP and up, so they would need a 155 or heavier gram arrow for a bow of 160 lbs in draw weight. I don't think English longbows used nearly as heavy GPP for their arrow weights, but they could probably get into the low 100s grams or more depending on the arrowhead.
Never too much Joe on the channel!
It's impressive how little elevation you need for a 70g arrow at 50m. Even deflected by armor I can't imagine it feels too good to get hit by one of those. That helmet strike surely would have rung his bell!
For a 160 lbf bow, a 70 gram arrow is actually pretty light - it's only 6.75 grains per pound. A heavy arrow for a longbow would be more like 10 to 11 grains per pound, which for a 160 lbf bow would translate to ~104 to ~114 grams, or roughly a quarter pound. Arrows weighing that much would fly slower than 70 gram arrows, but they'd have ~12-14% more kinetic energy at launch and they'd retain their kinetic energy better over distance because they'd be subjected to lower drag force due to their lower velocity. This is more what I expect these bows' arrows intended for piercing plate armour would have weighed. A light 70 gram arrow, if they used them in late medieval warfare, would have been better suited to long range harassment of lightly armoured targets.
@Beertie Wooster - Quarter pound arrows were common for East Asian Manchu bows and would not be improbable for English longbows. Qing Dynasty Manchu archers used huge arrows the size of small javelins that are 40 or more inches long and have a 15 GPP and up, so they would need a 155 or heavier gram arrow for a bow of 160 lbs in draw weight. 155 grams is already .34 lbs, or a bit over one third of a pound. I don't think English longbows used nearly as heavy GPP for their arrow weights, but they could probably get into the low 100s grams or more depending on the arrowhead.
Yeah, some of those things are beasts... though I'd say their arrows are more like darts than arrows. Wouldn't surprise me if you can get over 200J with them.
@@thejackinati2759 Would be very interesting to know the range on them too!
Tod should try out heavier arrows to see the difference in impact.
@@Archaic-Arms Hey, we meet in interesting places :P
@@thejackinati2759 That we do. haha!
Two blokes who know what they are talking about, talking about what they know. Cant think of a better way to end my evening.
Great to see how Joe works through the bow making process.
And glorious countryside for a shoot...
Best RUclips video I've seen in a while. Watching Joe Gibbs shoot is just so great! I am so excited for AvA2!!! Great channel
Thanks
Can't get enough of Joe Gibbs! Such a wonderful presence on the channel, Todd. Great work, and keep it coming!
Thank you, Tod and Joe - I can't wait for the 'real thing' now! In the old, first video Intoned that Joe's stance/posture when shooting is just as in the various pictures of bowmen in medieval sources. It was evident again today. That shows that those medieval painters drew their pictures correctly.
One other thing that might be of interest for later: Tod, I've seen an arrowhead used by cossacks which had what can best be described as a sickle-form had. Have you ver seen something like that?
Thanks again to Tod and all who work on this venture!
Was that arrow head with the concave side facing the direction of flight? If so, I believe those were often used for bird hunting. Although it could also be used against other targets too obviously.
@@michiganengineer8621 Yes, it was indeed. I was thinking at the time that it might have been meant for use against horses.
Yes the crescent headed arrows range over millennia and the world. The same pattern can be found in flint, bronze and steel and from the Americas to China and from the arctic to Southern Africa. Birds
@@tods_workshop I would imagine they work well for other small game as well, they basically function like modern "judo points".
Activate the subtitles, go to minute 12:30 and you will know how polite the British arrows can be...
Brilliant :D
Watch Joe's back arch when he's firing, that's where the power comes from, not his arms. Archer's skeletons were found with deformed spines from firing the longbow. Amazing stuff, this video.
Hey, it's great to see Joe again.
Congratulations on a successful fundraiser.
Super excited for this project.
Cheers!
I love how cool and serious Joe is.
Those arrows at that distance and weight is scary as all get out. Amazing job gentlemen, and thank you for all of your hard work and research. It gives so much more knowledge than the common speculation model that we've seen so much in the past.
Our pleasure! And the common speculation model as you describe it is why we started doing this
@@tods_workshop Well, while others continue to speculate, this channel continues to time and time again produce excellent content that can be seen and trusted. Thank you so much for putting in the hard work where others only put talk and fluff!!
Joe is such a chill guy who can just riff off your energy so well. Good to see him in one of your videos again.
I love Joe, he's calm, quiet ,a master of his craft and a damn beast at shooting bows.
The sound that bow makes when he looses an arrow is terrifying. You can hear the power.
Gotta love Joe putting arrows down range. Such a pro.
Thank you , Tod and Joe .
🐺
I've been researching and studying bow making for months and bought a couple hand tools so I could start. Getting wood staves is very difficult around me, mean while Mr. Gibbs has lots that he's not gonna use lol
I'm not mad btw and Mr. Gibbs I respect your skills and talent
start with ash, it is easy to work and makes a quite good bow and is dead cheap
@@tods_workshop I made a bollock dagger after watching one of your videos, now I'm going to get some ash and make some bows! Your videos are inspirational. Can't wait for AVA2
Excellent video, and Tod interviewing Joe means that we got a very neat look at the process of making the bows, with just enough detail to be interesting, without getting bogged down in little details too much.
Yes, passion and enthusiasm are great, but Tod's instinct for what actually interests viewers remains the thing that puts this channel so far above the average youtube fare.
I feel so excited about this upcoming arrows verses armour project. I hope there will eventually be more investigative projects like this in the future.👍
Tod, I've said it before and I'll probably say it again in the future, but I am so happy that you have good captions on your films. So many content creators on youtube, even with huge subscriber counts, don't do it and even for someone without hearing issues like me it can be so useful. Good on you for doing it even when not forced to! Also I hope to buy some of your products someday, after I have had my 40s/50s khukri from my English Nana restored.
Great video again and I can't wait for the testing. One thing I'd love to see added to the testing if possible is to see how hard the impact is inside the armour. Yeah the BP can stop the arrow but how much does it still hurt inside. In the original video you saw the gel rippling from the impact, so does it still hit hard enough to cause serious bruising or even crack a rib... which would seriously impact the ability to fight even if they did get up close. I know you can buy impact stickers that measure if somethings been dropped or hit so some of these of varying measures inside the BP would be interesting.
I was happy to support the project on Kickstarter. I'm so glad you've gotten all the support you could need. I look forward to seeing what new insights are gained. 👍🏻
I'm glad you decided to put this video out despite not needing the promotion is was intended to provide. It is always a pleasure to see a craftsman and enthusiast discussing workmanship and demonstrating skills, and by the look of it, having a jolly good time while doing so :D
I assume that an actual infantry attack would have at least 2-3 ranks of depth and be closely spaced if not shoulder to shoulder. Under those circumstances, all of the shots at 50m are hitting an opponent.
Further, the range of those shots wasn't replicated with a single solider infantry weapon until the late 1800s. While rifles absolutely existed, their peak rate of fire never came close to a bow and they were unable to sustain even the 2-3 shots/minute of a 75m smoothbore musket. Put another way, the longbow's combination of range, rate of fire and SUSTAINED rate of fire was matched only by crew served artillery until breech loading black powder arms in the 1860s. Thank you so much for doing all of the work to demonstrate this history to those of us who lack these skills. This is archaeology in every sense of the word.
Cool as shit. I really can't wait to see where this series goes. Mad respect to Joe for being able to craft and shoot those monsters. What a legend! Thanks for the vid Tod.
Never tired of seeing Joe content, dude's such a great bowman and bowyer
Your honesty is refreshing!
I love this video! One master craftsperson speaking to another craftsperson. I think this could make a great series for you
Excited for this project! Joe is such a chill guy, love to see his work with bows. Thanks for sharing
Just great watching Joe shoot. I enjoyed this vid. Thank you
WHY CANT I LIKE THIS TWICE!
Not good enough youtube.
The way you can see him flow with his shooting in the bow is incredible, like all his muscles are extending with the powerband the bow has. Just remarkable.
I'd also like he to hear Joe break down his technique. He seems to move in interesting ways . especially when firing distance shots.
Justin Ma has some videos on his channel The Way of Archery that break down the technique for shooting heavy bows. He focuses on Chinese archery, but the techniques for shooting heavy bows are very similar across cultures. Justin also happens to be a friend of Joe's.
I'll have to catch these later. June is being a heck of a month. Good luck everyone!
Man I would love to apprentice with either one of you. So much amazing knowledge, skill and talent between you.
Great to hear that the fundraising went so well that you didn't even need the other fundraising videos. Can't wait to see more of Joe.
That's a gorgeous piece of land you're on. It was therapeutic listening to the thrumb of the bow and the birds.
wicked shooting joe. stand by comments from the first film tod Agincourt was won by bows. sure looking forward to the real test. thanks for the great episode!
Wonderful film gentlemen. Wonderful film.
Beautiful bows Joe
I've never seen Joe smile this much in a video before. He really loves this.
11:47 Such beautiful land.
Wonderful stuff. And what fantastic countryside!
Given the pace Joe takes, 3 in the air easy, even with full draw before he pivots up. Amazing shooting! The muscle control is incredible. Always a pleasure to watch, and looking forward to the new testing.
All the best
DC
Can't Wait for AvA2!!!!
Thank you.
Always a joy to watch Mr. Gibbs shoot. His technique is fascinating.
Yeah, I love it too
@@tods_workshop Makes me wonder what kind of absolute monster archers must've existed through the ages. Guys as large as the Mountain from GoT with the precision of movement of a Swiss watch.
245 meters!!!! Imagine a hail of a 1000 arrows coming at you before you can even make out the enemy!
Would be interesting to know what was the maximum range these were shot at in a battle.
That was 25m and 50m with a big degradation in accuracy and punching power. 245 would not have been an efficient range for killshots, maybe for harassment or provocation, but not what you would want to waste your arrows on.
@@mangalores-x_x at the very end they also did just "how far can it go" shots, if you watched the video.
@@mangalores-x_x I think it would depend on what you're shooting at, if your target is mounted the horses are not going to appreciate being stuck with possibly multiple arrows.
I wonder what the dangerous parts of getting hit by an arrow that is basically coming down at knights. Would the probability of hitting the upper chest or other vial parts increase or decrease?
When shooting from 25 or 50 meters. The arrow is gonna fly at a much shallower angle than at 245 meters
The maximum arrow range, is also the maximum war shot range. For example a battle of towton, the other side was shooting against the wind, and couldn't reach the enemy and while the enemy could reach them cus they shot with the wind.
Also for example in ancient Egypt, their enemies were using composite bows and could out shoot the Egyptian archers with their self bows, and because of that, Egyptians also took composite bow to their armies to be able to compete against the enemies range advantage. I suppose this is the reason whe basically the whole asia and half of europe quickly adopted the composite bow.
Thumbs-up from the thumbnail alone; the fact someone took the time to re-draw a classic "ivan" target into a man-at-arms target is worth a chuckle all by itself
Wow, that is so impressing! The skill of Joe is just unreal! I imagine an army of these bows with skilled archers is absolutely deadly!
Thank you very much for these videos!
Incredible, cant wait
A long while back I did some calculations for Agincourt. The area the French could move through was less than 50 meters wide due to the boggy conditions from the excessive rainfall If we just take 1000 archers (there were a lot more than this according to every account I have read), and that with all the adrenaline pumping I think an archer could take 6 shots per minute (I have seen 10 argued). So if we call it 50 meters, 6 per minute off 1000 archers that would be 2 arrows per second per meter. If we take a more realistic 2500 archers, and 35 meters it's a crazy 7 arrows per second. Just by weight of numbers something is going to hit something serious in 5 seconds or less. Also good to see a Joe Gibbs collaboration again!
Fantastic, thanks for posting.
I’ve only shot modern bows and older recurves, and nothing with a crazy draw weight like that. It’s so cool seeing the stance and posture work required to use that effectively. It makes me think about how often that was reflected in medieval artwork
Todd is never disappointing always great videos.
Great Video thanks Tod and Joe
Is this the best channel on RUclips? its certainly up there.
At only 6.75 grains per pound, for a 160# longbow, a 70 gram arrow isn't heavy - it's actually quite light. It surprises me that Joe's longbow can shoot arrows that light repeatedly without getting damaged. An arrow for a bow like Joe's that would be heavy but still have a high enough launch velocity to give it a reasonably flat trajectory would weigh 10 - 11 grains per pound, which for a 160# bow translates to ~104 - 114 grams, or about a quarter pound. An arrow in that weight range would have ~12-14% more kinetic energy at launch than a 70 gram arrow and it would retain more of its kinetic energy down range because its lower velocity means it would be subjected to lower drag force. Having 12-14% more kinetic energy might not sound like a big deal, but it means being able to penetrate a few tenths of a millimetre more plate armour. In the late medieval period, that could have spelt the difference between being effective and ineffective against a given armoured target.
As a guy who just moved to shooting 30lb the idea of 100lb being the light end is absolutely shocking. That is serious training and physicality to draw that weight at all, let alone well enough to hit a target.
Awesome seeing Joe shoot those heavy warbow, with Tods Passion for it. Can't wait for the next installment..Il keep shooting my self made bows.ie my 90lb Welsh Yew Bow.
Lovely video! Joe's a lovely archer
love to see Joe back on the channel. Absolute craftsmaster. Really looking forward to AvA2.
So stoked! Can't wait!
Definitely excited for these videos!
I can never get enough of watching Joe Gibbs shoot a full power war bow
Historical science. I love it. Big damage arrows with that monster bow. Wow. Thanks Todd.
Great video, I recognise those fields and sheep 😁. If your ever over here again Tod it would be great to meet you 👍
absolutely love joe
Fantastic Joe & Tod. A delight to watch. This is SO epic & more to come....
Can't wait to see the test vid!
Can't wait for that armor test video!
Magic. Can't wait
Joe is a bloody tank of a man. Really impressive.