RV Industry Update: Junk RV Frames? New Battery Tech & 2022 Trends! February 2022
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
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I had a LOT of requests to discuss recent reports about LCI frame challenges. I also have a bad habit of jumping into the "big news" last, so I wanted to make sure I hit that one first and foremost.
Beyond that we discuss some new prototype features in the works for the industry as well as trends we may continue to see for the development of RVs moving forward. We also touch on some camp ground crowding info and as always make a touch on pricing/inventory supply.
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Sorry but a margin of error should be built into the quality of the frame allowing for weight, trailer distribution, trailer layout, cargo and most of all user ignorance, IMO its solely a result of cost cutting and lack of regulation. It would take next to nothing to strengthen the frame by beefing it up in crucial places without increasing weight substantially ... The frame is a trailers foundation, it should not be compromised or cheapened in any way.They can give you a plastic toilet or give you more cheesy blue lights or a shower with no plastic surround but never mess with the quality of the frame please.
Exactly!
Agreed. LCI may get "just those specs" from the MFGs but when they build the trailer to those specs they should know what it can handle. Unless LCI is informing the MFG that the resulting frame can only handle X weight before failure and then the MFG is ignoring that information some of the blame still falls with LCI. They do not get a full pass with this.
LCI knew DAMN WELL what these frames are used for. Using 1/8 inch steel for any chassis should never have been acceptable on anything going down the highway.
I'm not letting LCI off the hook that easily. Between the tongue issues, and cracked suspension shackles. Crawl under any trailer and you will notice just how trashy the welding is. I'm in the collision field, and have be be certified every 3 years for steel and aluminum welding. Looking at the quality of the welds, I would say this is not the case on their end. However, this should be covered by the manufacturer. Granted there are some foolish people in this world. But should not be seeing failures like this. And surely should not be putting folks through the ringer of finger pointing. I would love to see lemon laws come into effect on the industry. Especially if structural issues
Yes I totally agree put lemon laws into effect which for those that haven t a clue are there to protect them the consumer which is by the way more government regulation😜
I agree with you 100%
Wonder if LCI would allow substandard welds through their QC inspection process. If so, shame on them.
I can't comment on their QC process, As I'm not privy to that information. But my eyes do not lie to me. They labeled it their product. Its marketed as their product. I'm simply saying, this should not be up to the customer to have to sort out. We are not talking about trim coming lose. These are failures that put everyone at risk. Someone needs to step up and help these people. Its not the insurance companies job. Which only drives premiums up as claims are paid out. Everyone needs to stop, rectify the problem. And learn from the mistakes before a loss of life suit is filed.
I’m with you on this. You can tell when looking at them that the work just isn’t top notch. They don’t even spray them correctly for shipping and the rust is bad. Not good. This passing the hot potato around in this industry needs to stop. They all doing it.
Because the trailers operate on public roads, engineering safety is critical. The chassis manufacturer should set minimum specifications that their products will meet, then the trailer manufacturers should build around them.
Airlines, trucking companies, and railroads need equipment that meets their needs but the manufacturers of those aircraft, trucks, and locomotives engineer the equipment to be safe and serviceable. Simply meeting the customer's needs and claiming no liability is unacceptable.
Excellent points here. TY
I've drove a semi for about 10 years now, I started the rv life last year. The thing I noticed is some people are turning a travel trailer way to sharp. If you look back when you're turning and the tires on the trailer are twisting like hell. Make a wider turn. If you've blown more than on trailer tire off the bead. Make a wider turn. If you need cars to move so you can get around a corner than wait a few seconds for the car to move.
plenty of spots in rv parks are too tight to be able to do that.
I'm REALLY glad you did a video about this! The RV industry in general is unique. Honestly, powersports in general with the RV industry is unique. You go buy something that you may or may not have any experience with and they send you on your way without giving you the proper information needed to be successful. Personally, I grew up around trailers, heavy equipment, tractors, all of that so, for me to go buy a trailer it's almost second nature. There may be others that have absolutely no idea what's going on but they just bought this massive trailer and they received no help in the process to understand anything about it. That's why I love your videos so much! People just need better information! There needs to be more broad information given to people when they make these purchases. Information on both use and operation and maintenance as well as what to do and where to turn when there are issues that are outside of their control. I've seen so many videos where people clearly didn't understand the implications of their actions. You can see it driving down the road looking at a vehicle that's way too small with the front end almost off the ground towing a trailer it has no business being around. They just need better information! There needs to be a higher value put on safety and information then there is on making a sale and creating profits. You're amazing Josh!! 🤠
Man thank you for all this. I have enjoyed a very busy but very fun and fulfilling weekend with a lot of people sharing kind things like this
@@JoshtheRVNerd You're very welcome! You truly deserve it!! It's nice to have someone you can trust sharing information that's actually useful!! You're a solid information source, not an Internet clickbait.
Oh My Gosh!!! This has hit so close to home for me.
After watching several videos of travel trailers with bent tongue frames, I think the main culprit is the weight distribution hitches. I think many people don’t realize the way those hitches actually work and where or how they are shifting the load from the hitch to other areas of the trailer and tow vehicle. The torsional loads applied to the fasteners on the hitch and on the trailer tongue are multiplied and shifted in different directions than one would normally think. For instance, when my 10k gvwr (1050lb tongue weight) travel trailer is fully loaded and the weight distribution hitch is set up to keep the truck/trailer level, my hitch is situated pushed down in the receiver and everything sits nicely. There is a small gap at the top between the receiver and the hitch. Empty the tanks and remove some cargo and the hitch actually rides against the top of the receiver. The gap has moved to the bottom between the hitch and receiver. The weight distribution is actually trying to twist the hitch down in the front of the receiver, up in the rear. It is applying the same force to the trailer frame except it is lifting on the coupling and pushing down on the rear of the frame. So now your trailer frame has not only to deal with the regular tongue weight of the rv, but possibly thousands of pounds more. Especially if the tow vehicle and the travel trailer are at two different angles and the hitch is the low point of the v in between. Use the right size weight distribution. And, just as importantly, set it up with no cargo in the tow vehicle. Especially pickup trucks. If you set up your weight distribution hitch with a load in the bed of your truck. You transfer at least 50% of that load directly to the tongue of your trailer. Not bad if it’s a couple of camping chairs or bicycles. Could prove catastrophic if it’s a golf cart or something similar.
@@GrumpyBigZ The only truth in that statement is that any added weight in the bed of the truck is going to add some amount of weight to the trailer axles and torque to the tongue of the trailer. If you add “X” weight to the bed of the truck then level the whole rig with the weight distribution hitch, you are having to use much more torque on the whole WDH setup in order to level the rig. If the rig is set ip with no extra weight in the bed of the truck then there will be some angle between the truck and trailer. However, the torque increase will still be substantially less than the torque applied all of the time if the rig is set up with “X” weight in the bed. Then any time you hit any undulations in the road or have to transition an obstacle which induces extra angle (ie. entrance into fuel stations) where the truck is forced nose up while the trailer is still on the previous incline that torque is again tremendously increased.
Shame on LCI for not building them properly. I am in the engineering field and if a customer asked us to build something unsafe, we wouldn't do it and they shouldn't either.
It is ridiculous that the chassis builders do not stress test and certify the design for weight load. Also, welds should be inspected and certified.
Josh... Twenty years ago, we were able to tow our bunk house RV with the boys in the back of the truck and plan no more than a few days out. Just book a place a day or three ahead, stock up with food and treats, refill the propane and go. The last year, my wife is finding she is having to plan several months ahead, even for state parks. We are in North Texas by the way.
North Texas here as well, just starting to look for my first rv.
We are in this area as well and constantly run into issues getting a spot if you don't book way in advance. I am the type that likes to check out the weather a week to 10 days out (which is sketchy at best in our area) then make a reservation but that don't work alot of the time.....just hate it.
I am one of those people who experienced at buckled frame on my 2019 Keystone Outback. The frame I had was made by BAL, but oddly enough the same unit had frames made by LCI. Keystone issued a recall on only the LCI units to add a reinforcement plates to the frame where it mated with the A frame reciever. Both frames construction were identical in this area, but only LCI was included in the recall. Keystone basically told me to deal with my insurance company on this as they determined that there was no manufacturing defect with my unit. My unit was considered a total loss, and you can bet that I didn't replace it with another Keystone trailer.
I would LOVE to talk to you about this!
@@brycearmeni8508 Hi Bryce, what would you like to know about this situation?
@@brycearmeni8508 I'm available, lets talk
did your ins company pay out the value of the trailer or?
@@Lauren-vd4qeyes they paid out replacement cost, however, my rates did go up.
Thank you for being a trusted source or reason and knowledge. The fact that you are not sponsered, and do not take advertising, makes you my trusted source for info and reviews.
I feel thanks is also due to the Bish’s RV leadership For allowing me to continue to operate in an unfiltered fashion
Do you not think that the LCI style chassis should possibly move out of the 1950s with its design? Have a look at European chassis (despite Dexters LCI attempts to buy out all the competition) and you will see flex rides, stressed, structural floors, laced box frames, pieced aluminium rails. Here you see two I beams and some leaf springs from the 1880s!
Other things you see in Europe... parking brakes!
I have said this in comments before... the Indiana RV industry is a critical example of US production engineering and construction industries - over priced, poor quality, shiny with no depth. I get the interior needs to be light weight but it needs to be strong enough to stand riding on railway age chassis. Remember - you cannot polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter, and there you have the RV product mantra.
LCI is not to blame. They take a set of plans with the specs from the Manufacturer and build them.
Like he said in the video after that they are shipped. The trailer Manufacturer is the one that is building the rest On their Specific frame they had LCI build for them. 👍
It's not a case of LCI building a 30ft basic frame for Multiple Manufacturer to use 🤔
I love the comment about the glittery turd!!!!....:)
Dexter has parking brake and air flex options, do you research.
LCI is as guilty as the trailer mfr after reviewing all the frame braking data why aren't engineers from both companies setting down and saying lets fix this?? But know they are shipping the same over priced crap out the backdoor as the complaints roll in the front door.
HAHAHA, the tractor at the end was to scared to approach him. The 27:00 minute mark. It slammed on the brakes and hid behind the RV. This guy obviously chewed him out for driving in his other shot earlier. That was the funniest thing in this entire video. 🤣
We try to respect one another’s space but there was definitely something comical about that :)
I'm sure Lippert will build anything that the manufacturer wants, but I'm equally sure that Lippert wants to protect their reputation as well. Lippert knows full on what type of trailer is going to be built on their chassis and roughly how much it will weigh when completed based on number and size of axles and length. But since they have a stake in the trailer, they should also cover their assets and insist on better chassis build quality whether that means thicker steel or more bracing and gussets. Meaning any company that is willing to put their name on a product should be willing to refuse anything that may damage their reputation since there are limitations to everything and build quality is no exception and should never be compromised.
No one will disagree with your logic, but if Lipert builds 95 percent of all rv frames and has a fail rate of .05 percent they will make there customer happy , keep in mind NO one writes complementary letters on how great any frame or any item is, they only as a rule write how bad a item is ,they are venting and complaining!, it didn't last it bent, it stopped working you get the idea! maybe there should be a construction code for trailers and a code for motor homes, until that happens mfg will do what they want to do , follow the money!!
@@hardchines For sure. Lippert should realize like any other manufacturer that if they compromise quality, it could (and probably has) bit them in the behind due to lawsuits and such. If they're willing to accept the 0.05% fail, they should have that money set aside for when they get sued. There is an association that most if not all trailer builders, RV and cargo trailer subscribe to and it is there to help keep the industry in check and not allow shoddy building. If they have any say in the quality, this is where it would come from.
With over 35 years of advanced material reinforcement failure analysis manufacturing engineering experience and 50 years RVing, bad quality, over pricing and inflation is going to ⚰️ the RV industry…..again.
I was ready to buy an RV but prices are through the roof. Decided to wait for the bubble to burst.
Won’t happen. Why would manufactures lower price when people are still buying at the higher prices? Just take a look at vehicles when have they ever come down drastically in price? Keep waiting and you’ll never travel and missing out on what you could be doing.
We just bought one life is to short enjoy yourself nothing promise to you.
Meh the OEM's are going to make sure the component manufacturers are culpable for their product. Ask Takata about air bags if you want an example. The OEM just passes the legal buck because it's all about who pays for a recall, and who ends up in court.. If my trailer OEM is not working hand in hand with their frame manufacturers there is a serious problem. We are not talking door handles or cabinet doors. Bad frames can kill people. I'm usually on-board with most things but there is too much money and too much blame to think that these guys are not engaged at least covering their own butts.
My wife and I joined a Camping Resort Association when we purchased our travel trailer in 2020. During the 2020 summer through fall, we camped throughout Ohio and Michigan without having to make reservations for campsites prior to arriving at the resort. However, in 2021 and going forward we are required to go online and make reservations and select a specific campsite.
We camp 2-3 nights, midweek, each time, within a few hours of the Pittsburgh region, in a class B. We get reservations for the better sites AT LEAST 4 months ahead of time. We could probably get any old site on shorter notice but that’s not our preference. We NEVER had the ability to stay an extra night (Friday night) at any of our 10 trips last summer. I do mostly enjoy the process of looking for the ideal sites for us. We are new to RVing so everywhere we go is an adventure,
I’ve watched your channel now for almost 2 years and I’m finally pulling the trigger on our first RV. You having given all of us so much great info and I wanna say thank you!!!!!
Congratulations Matt! If our videos here helpful, then please consider leaving us a review at www.bishs.com/review-us-manually/
What did you end up getting for your first unit??
dont buy new...
@@Lauren-vd4qe why? Lots of excellent deals on new RVs
I am so glad you talked about the weights on the distribution hitches. We bought our Imagine 17MKE a couple years ago and without realizing it, bought the hitch that was the next size up from what we needed. Cue months of trying to figure out why we were getting so much porpoising even after having the hitch "properly adjusted". My husband and I found out that the hitch was the next size up from what we needed and asked the dealership/service center if that could be the problem. Got told "Nope, shouldn't really be an issue at all- you need to take your truck to the truck dealership and have them look at it to make sure your truck is ok." Of course, the truck was fine. So, we've just been dealing with it. At least after seeing this, we know we're not crazy!
As far as camping- we still do a lot of the "hitch up and go without a plan type", but we tend to stick with smaller towns, boondocking, if we are headed to a bigger town or state/National Park we call ahead. So far, we've been pretty lucky and been able to find spots every time. We are in Wyoming, but did a big trip through Utah and Arizona last spring and then lots of smaller trips through Nebraska, Iowa and Missouri last year. Nebraska has a TON of beautiful state parks with both reserved and non-reservable camping.
I do agree about too much hitch for a given trailer. My last trailer I ran an Equalizer and I never liked the fact that I didn’t have concrete numbers of how much weight is being transferred, likewise how much strain I’m putting on the bars and A-frame of the trailer. Measuring ride heights and squat is not very accurate in my opinion, harder still with airbags.
I’m now running a Weigh Safe and can actually see tongue weight, and a calculated distribution weight based on measurements and parameters of my trailer. There will be some margin of error of course, but its much better than before and the hitch technology is evolving.
Regarding the bending of the A-frames, there are a number of factors involved, including the overall engineering, welds and penetration, metallurgy, wall thickness etc. in addition to everything you mentioning in the video. There is a lot to investigate for a root cause.
I really appreciate your fair approach and levelheadedness here. As you said there are a lot of potential and or contributing factors that need to be considered. My biggest point I really wanted people to understand is it’s not just “Lippert makes junk frames.“
This is a good comment, I run an over specced WDH for my trailer, but It's not over adjusted, it's just there to stop a bit of the sway and see-sawing. I was very careful to weigh my tongue weight and really know my numbers before I set it up.
I've seen a LOT of people who are obsessed with ensuring the drop at the front of their truck is the same as the back, it's supposed to drop a bit in the rear. I'd guess this over adjustment is really where the WDH contributes to frame damage, I've been pulling a 5k trailer with a 15k curt for 2 years without issue, I haven't been easy on it over the 10k miles i've towed it either.
Thank you Josh for giving me a different perspective on frames, hitches, all trailer related stuff. It helps you make better decisions on what you want.
One of the things about the reservations is the surprising number of people reserving spots and not using them. We've went to a couple of Florida state parks lately that were almost impossible to get a spot because they were so booked. Get there and a fourth of the park is empty. Would be nice if there were some type of disincentive to make people cancel their reservations if they know they won't make it so that others can go and enjoy the park.
I have yet to have a problem getting a spot (we have had to move mid-stay a few times....).
But places where they have no sites available online, if we go in, a place becomes magically available (?) It wasn't in Florida, though, maybe those people had prepaid for the entire stay and the $is nonrefundable(?)
My worst experience was going tent camping with my brother and his girlfriend... I took the day off and headed up to the mountains to get a spot and setup, and tell my brother where to go when he got off work.
Well, I get up there and check all the national forest sites on this highway (4 or 5 of them on a 35mi stretch of road) and they were all full. I then traveled to all the campgrounds listed in my navigation map (about 7 more) and found NOTHING open... Spent hours driving around.
It was now dark and I thought I'd be sleeping in the car, hit the last site that was farther away and they squished us into a pretty decent site for a night because the customer never showed.
That was a huge warning to not simply try and spontaneously go camping on a major summer holiday with no reservation!
Last year the Mrs and I were headed back home from Tennessee and showed up at Guntersville State Park, Al. at about 6pm on a Tuesday. Office was closed but host's were checking in campers. DO YOU HAVE A RESERVATION THEY ASK. No I said, they replied WE ARE FILLED UP, but we could stay the night down in a parking lot with water & power only.
We chose not to use the hookup and use our genartor.
Next morning about 7:00 am WE DROVE THRU CAMPGROUND and STOPPED COUNTING EMPTY SITES at 175, atleast 250 were empty. 250 out of I think 450 sites.
...Then they wanted to charge us $32 for a parking lot stay. We payed $22 with a BAD TASTE IN OUR MOUTH'S.
......CAMPGROUNDS don't CARE.....THEY GOT THEIR MONEY.....BUT THE THING IS and their missing out on is renting out sites for double on NO SHOWS.
....at full capacity sold out 450 site with only 150 site's occupied THEY DON'T WANT THIS PROBLEM TO END.
My wife is a planner like your Mom, Josh, so we have campground reservations galore. But with the recent cold snap in New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, we changed plans - cancelled some plans, extended a stay in Tucson, added a new stop in Las Cruces. No troubles at all. We're not seeing the campground crowding, but we aren't generally going to destination places. We're also flexible, adaptable. We do plan more with a 35 ft 5thwheel. Much more than we did with a popup 15 yrs ago. We love your videos! Keep it up!
That’s good to hear. Sometimes it seems a little bit regional
I have read that Lippert was using very thin steel on some of their frames. I find it troubling that they are not required to include a stamped maximum weight rating for the frames they produce just as you have to do for axles etc? Having said that, I have seen you review several RVs where the CCC of the trailer is so low that you specifically told your viewers that you could possibly exceed the CCC if you attempt to fill the fresh water tank and tow the trailer😬 It sure seems like there is more than one manufacturer selling borderline unsafe products☹️
Not only are they using thin materials, but they're using it in the most absurd places like the front end of 5th wheels where the steel is soooo thin the welding being done in the construction will burn through. Lippert knows what the trailer will weigh when finished by the size and number of axles they put on them.
LCI is not the one to blame for the Thin Steel. They are building frames to the Manufacturer Specifications.
Whoever is Engineering and drawing the plans for the Trailer Manufacturer is to blame 👍
If LCI was undercutting the Manufacturer Specifications the Manufacturer would be REJECTING the product 🤔
Just like if you ordered a 3/4 ton pickup and when it showed up and it was only a 1/2 ton you would Reject it.
And the large majority of frames are shipped to the manufacturer Without Axels. So it's not LCIs fault that the shackle bolts are breaking or falling out of GDs suspension either 👌😉
@@jamesglenn520 Totally agree, but someone is definitely responsible for the failing frames on these RVs, and I think we can all agree that whoever it is should be held accountable👍👍👍
@Steve Z - Agree! One would think that Lippert would want to put some specs on their product to reduce liability. It seems they are turning a blind eye while keeping their hand out to receive the cash.
I would never of thought the WDH would of helped damage the frame. I use to use a 10K Lb WDH on my prod 179.
Thank you Josh
Yeah that’s super overkill
On the topic of reservations, I’ve been camping for 40 years and I never made reservations back then. Now I make reservations at least six months in advance in special areas such as national and state parks. Private parks in some areas can be tough but most private parks I have no problem. Private parks have gotten so expensive and I usually avoid them if possible. I also enjoy the planning process, researching parks and campgrounds, and making reservations. RV trip wizard and others make it easy and fun. Spontaneity is a no go in National and state Parks in the busy season though. Florida State Park reservation usually need to be made 11 months in advance.
The whole reservation system is so broken… the spots are so cheap so you better just book them and then you can always cancel up to 48hours for most, and even if you don’t cancel and not show up what is $15 a night (Grand Canyon) I don’t do this, but we had the situation that we had an issue and I wanted to cancel the reservation in a state park not to get a refund but at least if somebody shows up they can have my spot. Went online and they wanted an additional $5 to cancel and of course no refund. Makes no sense so it a “no show up” was better. Unfortunately that’s the system in no state parks that’s why so often you have campgrounds supposedly full but when you go around in the evening some spots remain empty.
Thank you for putting this info WHERE it belongs, in the Consumer's hands. As a future customer I want to know everything possible about how this all works, BEFORE I buy. Thx again Josh for NOT blowing Saccharin Sunshine up our arses!! Great work! STAY WARM!!
I'll keep doing it as long as people keep wanting it!
Their response will be, "Well it was rated for 5000#. You must of put in 5001#" 😂
This is my opinion only, but all the failures I have seen online had one or all of these factors.
1) HD tucks as the tow vehicle. Stiff rear suspension puts a lot of force through the a frame.
2) Super stiff weight distribution hitches trying to eliminate 100% of trailer movement
3) traveling a a very fast speed.
Back in the day Airstream dealers would have to deal with rivets popping and at least one I use to talk with regularly attributed it to using a dually pickup.
HD trucks have just gotten stronger and stronger.
I’d love to test that out but that would be way way outside of my budget to test scientifically. Correlation doesn’t always mean causation.
Great video.
Firestone had a similar problem in the mid to late 1990's with Ford ordering tires at one weight rating and then putting them on vehicles that were far too heavy for the tires. I worked in the tire industry for 20+ years and still to this day people blame Firestone not Ford. I see the same thing with these bending frames
I understand completely but it seems like ford and or Firestone corrected the problem.
comon man I worked for corporate firestone and even we called em MAYPOPS
Absolutely and the lawyer in Macon Ga. I lived close to settled the multi million dollar settlement. He has photos of ford SUVs flipping, tire blowouts, yada yada. Everything a corporation does is cost control and profit.
@@socaljet in the trucking industry, we had so many Firestone tires catastrophically fail, we called them “Firebombs”
@@n.elliott9122..I had a friend that was driving a Ford explorer , not sure if it was firestone tires.. think not . Buy he had a ply separation hit a guard rail and was fatally injured. Definitely something with some designs
I say the manufacturer is responsible along with the company who puts the specs out. I worked for my father for many years in construction his motto was “ do it right the first time or don’t do I at all” in other words build right or don’t build it at all. Car manufacturers screw up something and they pay for it.
That increased weight on the same model is driving me nuts. It keeps on reducing my options to near zero on enclosed campers.
Josh here a couple of things that me and my wife came back with 1 It's good to see you and your family are doing well, 2 Please talk to your brother give him a hand on your day off make it a video I know he's a very busy man now but it update would be nice, 3 Me and my wife also did a apples to apples comparison of rvs from when you were At the time Haylett rv's had more options and a less price but Bish's rvs was mostly stripped down with a higher price but we'll give it the benefit of the doubt. As always you are a true gentleman and an information go to guy but it comes to this industry personal opinion is everything, Thanks for being honest and still staying family... Stay safe see you soon.
Wondered about the difference between the 2 firms.
Keep in mind, weight distributing hitches can put tremendous loads on trailers - especially when the tow vehicle starts up an incline.
Agree, and to further that, i believe the pictured failure was with a dually truck so it had some weight to it. I pointed that out on his vid and i think he said the hitch was given to him, but agreed he didn’t need it.
So production out pacing purchasing.
There's a lot to chew on here, but my personal quick take is that buying is drying up. For me the big factors that stand out are:
• General cost of living price increase (bone standard, every day inflation)
• Slow down in government assistance (all the various "tax return" stuff)
• The naysayers are louder than ever and sometimes are being proven correct (build quality over the last year, for example)
Oh market doom and gloom isn't great. And the rumblings about rate hikes isn't great for buyers either.
So both wallet types are at least shaking at the moment.
I don’t think their frames are junk but there is room for better quality control. On my 2016 a weld broke on one of the four corners of the battery tray. I didn’t notice it until I got home from a trip and noticed the battery bouncing as I unhooked. On inspection it was a cold weld that pulled cleanly off the frame. Thanks to a buddy with a welder it was an easy fix. But now I can’t help but wonder, are there any other, more critical welds that might be bad. This has nothing to do with manufacture specs. It was just the common tray behind the propane tanks.
3 years after I started looking, I finally put money down on a (very small) trailer today. It IS on the lot, which is great. The strength of the chassis was a factor in my decision. Thanks for your videos Josh!
What did you choose??
Josh, first off I love your videos keep them coming. Okay, that's out of the way. I understand your point with Lippert frames. They have no control over what the manufacturer does with their frames, BUT they could and SHOULD go one step further and protect the consumer by clearly expressing what should be the max weight that sits on their frames (I'm sure they do, BUT). They can easily HELP the consumers by offering (???) something besides what's happening now.
Knowingly allow bad manu's to purposely load their frames too the limit without speaking up is as bad as allowing a drunk customer to leave your bar knowing they are too drunk to be driving. I recall you (I think) saying that just because your tow vehicle has X towing capacity it's safer to stay well below it, or something like that.... of course the truck salesperson is going to hype up it can safely tow whatever the label says on the door.
Lippert is protecting the Manu's because they want to make profits and calling out bad designs is NOT going to help profits. Another point along the lines of whether or not RVs are built with "quality" in mind.... I sat down and ran through the numbers on a 30ft. trailer (here's just 1 example) to upgrade the interior 1/8 luan plywood which holds very little weight and has nearly zero pull out strength, think do-dads and pictures of the kids hanging on the walls, to go from 1/8" luan to 1/4" in a 30 ft. trailer adds approx. 150 lbs LESS window and door cutouts.
My point, most RV buyers would clearly give up 150 lbs. to have a better built RV, BUT if the Manu's have pushed the weight limits right to the edge of Libbert's frames, of course they aren't going to use 1/4" ply... which brings me to my point.
Manu's can EASILY build better trailers and it will add a little more weight and cost a LITTLE (very little) more money. 1/8" ply vs. 1/4" ply bought in large quantities, as they are, do not price hugely different. The weight/price difference IS very similar. I've been in the Cabinet Industry for years buying plywood/panel stock. At the wholesale level we are talking very little money/weight difference. They do what they do to maximize profits with very little concern of quality. LABOR is going to make a much bigger difference not 1/8" vs. 1/4" and there is no labor difference to use one over the other.
So..... we RV owners allow ourselves to be cheated when we do not demand better built RVs AND tell them we will not pay a higher price. There are some people who will see the market is tired of junk RV's and start building better rigs. There are a few now, BUT many of those are price gouging by selling a better built product for a sizable higher price which, again, is just ripping us off a different way.
If we do not fight for better build rigs.... than don't gripe when they fall apart 6 months down the road.
Lastly, I recently decide not to retire and fell through the doors of a RV service working with Tech's trying to understand their side of this problem... here's what each of the said when asked, "Who builds a great rig? All said, "They are all junk, but you get to decide how much money you want to spend on your pile of s**t."
I thought, maybe it was the place I started working at, NOPE stopped by 2 other service centers in town and the Tech all said about the same thing. Of course SALES didn't see it that way....
Somewhere the gripe needs to hit the hype.
Imagine a consumer magazine/website that would focus on quality and accept no industry advertising. That’s Consumer Reports/Consumers Union (which I think is a much smaller voice since the advent of social media). And they don’t cover recreational vehicles.
Arctic and Outdoors RV don't break, they make their own. The
Stoutest frames in the industry. It's the main reason I and so many other RVer's bought this product. I've taken my 5 year old Outdoors RV off road on some nasty trails. It's a beast.
They're beastly
Lippert better get involved with what's going on with their chassies on down the line because whether they are right or wrong, we know right now we do not want anything on a Lippert chassis. After seeing the video that sparked all this and seeing how no one in that situation from the chasis manufacturer down to the dealer would give the buyers the time of day, we have decided to forget a camper altogether. People just don't have $50,000 to blow on a camper like that. I'm not saying Bish's would act in that manner but it's too late to find out on the other side of $50,000. I do appreciate your videos and it seems your dealer might not be amongst the slimey dealers. Being in the Ft Bragg NC area, about all we have seen around here are akin to the local sidewalk jewelry salesmen. 🤣
The one pictured on the internet /utube is and extreme case.... i am sure the trailer was overloaded and just take a guess were in the country it happened? I know were it happened and lots of big trucks break frames....trailers break frames and rv break frames.......Not a chassis problem. I fix and have built trailers and actually did crack a peterbilt frame up were that magical utube frame bent.
Not. Lippert problem....i really dont think they will miss the 100 consumers that wont buy because of utube silly crap.
@@docholiday1034 🙄🤣
We always book 6 month ahead of time for most of our Summer camping trips and then I will add a few last minute in between trips by looking for cancellations.
West Michigan State Parks are a challenge to get reservations. Holland to Ludington are all very popular and we book 6 months to the second to get reservations over the 4th of July. We also book early for sites on Hardy Pond. We have never felt comfortable just driving and hope for the best. If I could change anything, I would make the State Park reservations easier to find available spot in a more local area.
Definitely a cop-out. It is an LCI issue. It's also a Mfg issue. If LCI is building the frame to spec they should also be providing the spec back to the Mfg "this frame is certified to xxxx weight" and engineering details of load and stress points. If LCI doesn't provide that than LCI is negligent. If the Mfg ignore the engineers then it's a Mfg issue.
A very aggressive class action is needed. I've followed the RV industry closely for decades and most trailers are overloaded as sold if you check axle and tire ratings then add in the weight of full tanks. That is the other problem. Grand Design is notorious for that - most of their trailers are overweight with a full water tank AND ZERO CARGO. I think they've started putting better axles on... not sure if they bothered respec the frame. Based on the frame failure epidemic I guess not.
and most RV owners don't weigh their RVs to know if they themselves have overloaded them or not. Overloaded RVs can blow tires, floors, and cause frames to break.
I think it’s also really important to weigh your RV after you have it loaded with the stuff you commonly camp with.
For as reservations. We planned a year in advance due to its wanting the same spot or something similar due to produce or craft sales. Or popular holiday weekend. In WNY and NYS, you cannot book a site a year inadvance, but can in 9 months before. So that's what we do. One or two times we might book something a month or two on a wimb but not normally. Long trailer, need room..
Josh, another great video. My opinion on the lots filling up is some of supply chaining working out some kinks, but I think more so is the 3% this month and 3% last month type thing that is causing trailer supply to outstrip order. I know it put me on the sidelines for what I was wanting to do when I retire. The $80K (before discount) 5th wheel I wanted 3 years ago that I figured would be $90K by time I got ready to buy for retirement is now $130K (and little to no discount). $50K increase in 3 years has made me change my mind about how I am going to spend retirement. That is not to mention the trucks to pull the 5th wheel are through the roof with no discounts available. When the economy hits a rough spot which may happen by late 2022/early 2023 and vehicle and trailer prices nose dive then I might be back in the market. However, at this point it does not look like price drops will be large enough to lure me back in.
I am in the same boat. I would love to buy a newer vehicle to be able to tow more but the auto/truck market is out of its mind with the prices they are asking. I recently looked at a conversion type full size van with a V8 and they wanted $30K+ more then the MSRP of the van. I will not buy under these conditions and I need to buy a bigger vehicle to be able to upgrade my RV trailer to something a little bigger. Looks like I may have to wait a year to see how the market evolves to see if things change more favorable for me. If not I will stick with what I have and keep my money in my wallet. It will be a cold day in hell before I pay more than MSRP for any vehicle. I am retired and in no hurry to purchase.
Funny story… I drive that bent chassis road all the time. The repair wasn’t covered by warranty as the manufacturers both said it was caused by “Off-Roading.” Here in Alaska, we gave 2 seasons… Winter & construction.
When towing on uneven ground, loosen or better yet, disconnect weight distributing bars. They can put a lot of force on trailer frames. ALL TRAILER FRAMES.
I've personally seen all different brands get damaged that way.
People are doing more towing off road boondocking.
DISCONNECT WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION BARS OFF-ROAD OR ON UNEVEN GROUND.
Chris - This sounds like good advice and something I've never considered at all. Unless the hitch weight is so great that things will be nearly dragging during a slow tow over rough terrain, this seems reasonable. What do others think? -Bob
You are a go to for hundreds if not thousands of RV salespeople. I trust your reviews and use your information daily
I appreciate that! Your screen name is fantastic btw lol :)
Would love to see you discuss the flooring issues some people have had. As someone who wants to do seasonal camping, as in 3-4 months out a year, I wouldn't want one of those foam-core floors that turns into a sponge after three years. I understand the fight to maintain lightweight while also maintaining durability. Are those used throughout the industry?
Rick Nolte Yeah I was interested in a video on a floor repair on a 2016 Apex 279rlss. I was interested because I have a 2019 279rlss lol. The 2016 was cut apart and the repair facility said the foam failed and went spongey soft. My floor is the same build and solid as a rock still. We occupied it for 7 months straight during a move. I suspected water damage but the channel said no. Just seemed fishy to me. Not sure how that Foam suddenly turns Into a sponge.
I think you may be referencing laminated floors. That is something you may have seen documented on our used RV videos over the years
The trick there is people don’t realize that not every laminated floor is actually composed in the same way. Some have more and some have fewer crossmembers and studs for instants. I have seen a recent trend in larger RVs away from laminated floors to plywood decking with studs below. Rockwood is a good example of a manufacturer who realized what was happening before most and moved away from them
I do think there are some manufactures using a more stout laminated floor, and I have seen some non-laminated floors with failure spots in them. Though those are typically models with OSB for decking that has broken down overtime in high traffic areas like door jams. It seems exceptionally rare for a plywood deck floor that’s 5/8” in thickness to fail
@@CommonCentsOutdoorsman Thanks for that. I saw the same video and the repairs had to cost a fortune. I really like the Freedom Express models.
@@ricknolte6846 $$ for sure. I thought it was strange the way they had it all cut open on the first vid. That floor is supposed to have welded aluminum beams going across but the channel responded that the beams were not there which makes no sense at all. I went out to mine and stomped around lol... completely solid as when I bought it new in 2019. Maybe they corrected the problem by then who knows.
I have a Keystone Bullet product that was built in December of 2016 and sold to me new in August of 2017. It's a 35 ft TT with their infamous sandwich foam-centered floor. It comprises of a 1/8" luan panels sandwiching 2" foam board. On top of the luan is the glued vinyl flooring. On the bottom side is the Darco wrap.
With many thousands of miles on my coach, I've yet to experience any spongy, weak flooring failures. From wall to wall, the floors are solid as the day in bought my trailer. Traveling with 3 young rambunctious boys and a wife would tend to bring out any soft floor issues during the first few years. Many of our trips so far took us off the asphalt and onto BLM boondocking land. Being our six season with it, our next adventure is an RV Trip to Alaska (originating from Michigan). This will be the ultimate test of our coach.
So what this suggests is that there are plenty of coaches built the same way as ours who haven't experienced the soft floor issues. Many of those who have relate it to moisture intrusion; other relate it to the lack of supportive cross members under the flooring sandwich.
Frame issue sounds like Chevy frame cracking at the steering box 2.0. 73-80 on the half ton truck / blazer frames. I believe those frames were thinner as opposed to the long 3/4 and 1 ton frames.
History doesn't repeat itself ,but it very often rhymes
I've seen the video Josh mentioned with the bent chassis, and in that instance, It seems like that particular issue relates to using a weight distribution hitch, in combination with an HD truck, and going over uneven ground. When you have that heavy of a truck, and the weight distribution bars set correctly, and then go through a serious dip in the road (construction zone), then the forces on the trailer tongue are probably much more than what's designed and normally expected. In that situation, where the rear axle of the truck is in the dip, the weight distribution bars are basically transferring the weight of the rear of the truck onto the trailer tongue. It's like you are jacking up the rear of the truck. If you drive over very uneven ground, you should disengage the weight distribution bars for that reason.
That's actually a good point. I will definitely keep in mind next time i travel.
Road construction is unavoidable in this day and age. Unless you are suggesting that an alternate route may need to be taken ? Some alternate routes may not allow a trailer to be tow that way. Or some alternate routes may take you hundreds of miles around.
@@lawrencedoner5297 the area it happened is almost close to a haul road.....it eats trucks,trailer,autos and rv
@@docholiday1034 got you.
Boondocking no reservations needed. Of course, You need a set up to be 100% off grid. Solar and a generator also extra battery bank. Yes, it cost but well worth it.
Most RV manufactures buy frames built by another company and they’re crap if you’re gonna do full-time rv then buy an arctic fox or outdoors RV they build their own frame , be careful what you buy
used to be able to go to the beach have bonfires, ride motorcycles, do whatever.
43 miles of coastline in my county,
Now I have to make a reservation to go to the beach. There is still some free parking along Rincon but that’s taken up by people in 50 foot rigs.
There’s only so much camping area in the country, but RVs are getting bigger and bigger!
I think your tractor driver wants to get more involved in the videos. 😀
You mentioned EXACTLY what my dealer did to me! I purchased a trailer in August 2020 and they said they would throw a Husky Centerline TS hitch in with it. Before I even took delivery, I called and asked them to make sure they would give me the one rated for my Wolf Pup 17JG (5,000 gvwr and 400lb tongue weight). They said they only have one size in stock. Blamed Covid supply issues for it. When we took delivery, I noticed it was the size for 8-1,200 lb tongue weight and 12,000 max trailer. I asked them if it would be too much tension on the frame and they said “absolutely not” and said I would just have a better hitch for upgrading trailers in the future. Even though it’s been a year and a half, you have me debating if I should demand they purchase me the proper spring bars for my trailer. I don’t tow very far but so far haven’t had issues.
The person hooking up the hitch determines how much pressure is put on the truck and trailer frames. I can take a 12000 lb. Weight distributing hitch and put little to no pressure on the trailer to almost pick the tires on the tow vehicle off the ground. You have to take common sense and find the appropriate amount of pressure to put on the frame. Been towing RVs for 20 plus years. Never have had an issue.
I saw the video that sparked the lippert deal. I think it's the distribution bars set to tight, or too strong to begin with. Then you have ever heaftier beasts of trucks coming out, that don't give on the other end of the hitch. Something MUST give. If it isn't the distribution bars, then what's next.... hmmmm....
Exactly, rather have the a-frame bend than the tow vehicle’s frame, or the I beam frame of the RV. This is an engineering decision on where the failure point, weakest link will be. Incidentally this is a hard thing to communicate. People don’t care about the laws of physics, and want them broken, but you can’t break them.
Thanks. That one frame failure you showed has gone viral and demonstrates the frustration customers have with these products. The drive for economics is not an excuse for failure. Manufacturers are responsible for their suppliers. Basically you buy these then have them reinforced properly. These failures are a major issue for this industry. Excuses don’t work. Results matter.
Respect for everything you've said here. TY
Yes camping reservations are needed more these days than in years past,6 months in advance has become the “new norm” We live in N.C.I bet same deal all over the states.on the subject of the A frames bending/breaking Lots of factors there I figure but I also hope it doesnt come down to customers being blamed for misusing these rv,s as there should be safety factors built in not just good enough from the manufacture,s.Stay warm up there uncle Josh spring is coming.
Your hitching cut-in taught me something new. Your cliff notes explanation of weight distribution hitch pressure was perfect!
Awesome!!
"Monthly word from the Nerd"! Love it. Better trademark that! :D I agree with you Josh, the frame was built to a spec from the RV manufacturer, it's on their engineers to ensure the weight is distributed properly. Also worth noting what about the RV owner and did they add too much weight or not put it on the hitch at the righty height? There are a lot of factors that go into this. In the end it could be a batch of bad steel as well. Too many people jump to conclusions to quickly by simply blaming chassis, RV company, etc. I'm thinking we need to keep a list of Josh'ism's or perhaps a video with all of them and their definitions :D
"Best Wishes from Bish's" 😄
The Nerd is the Word! 😂
Josh, I’ve recently bought a camper and I thought we would just zip down to a state park along the gulf in Florida. Nope. All booked out past the end of the summer, unless you want to stay only one night. Only private sites available for 3-5 times the cost. Thanks for your content! I’ve learned a lot from your channel.
Ty for sharing. That lack of spontaneity is definitely a bummer
I’ve seen the front A bend complaint, but what I see more often is the hangers ripping off. I’ve seen on newer models they are adding a triangle wedge welded inside of the spring hangers and to the frame rail to help deflection. I’ve seen videos of people adding these to their year or two old trailer to try and prevent the hangers from failing.
Your absolutely correct there.....i fabbed up extra support on my brandnew trailer as i have repaired and built trailer for a lot of years
Our lippert system started rubbing tires on bottom of trailer at 7k miles, and I weigh our rig 4x/year. Had axles, springs, tires, wheel's, brakes replaced from 3500 to 5400, what it should have had in the first place. 2 summers ago found all the spring hangers bent so had them straightened and added the bars between hangers some to side.
This winter I fabricated a reinforcement system for the tongue weak spot. Just waiting for a warm day to paint the parts before install.
At 8 years and 20k miles, we've had way more problems with frame and suspension than anything inside.
Josh, you're the best, man but I disagree about Lippert (LCI). They are putting their name on these frames, hitches, and suspension parts and if they are basically only asking the manufacturer "how much do you want to spend", that's a HUGE problem and makes them just as responsible as the RV manufacturer.
Lippert needs to ask the most important question of the manufacturer: "what is the GVWR" and then make someone at the manufacturer sign a statement that they will not build heavier than that. Then, the manufacturer would be at fault for warranty issues.
The industry needs a huge class action law suite to make them "get right".
I perhaps wasn’t super clear about the fact that I actually agree with you. I feel they need to be willing to have a minimum standard below which they will not operate. Currently they’re willing to build something as bad as a Manufacture’s willing to ask for it if that makes sense
That was so interesting about hitches. I would have thought a huge heavy frame on a light RV is a good thing! Thanks for the info.
Glad to see some people are finding benefit in that information
I'm not a camper per say. Do not stay at campgrounds. I stay anywhere that is basically free. HH, Boondockers Welcome, Walmart, Cracker Barrel, friends and relatives. That is how we travel. Never have a problem finding a place to stay.
Freewheeling!
Hi Josh, great stuff as always. LiPoFe batteries are coming for sure. Some one is going to figure out how to make a modular port for the popular power sources (Goal Zero, Bluetti, EcoFlow, etc.) so that you can take it camping and then put it back in the house for emergencies (also useful for winterizing as you cannot let them freeze). The 12v fridges are really power frugal. You can go for a long time on a large battery. Especially if you offset the power used with some solar panels. The only thing you can't really do is run air conditioning.
I am in the west, California to be exact, and you need reservations. If you are going to the popular spots, beaches, Yosemite, the desert in winter, you need reservations 6 months in advance. It does not matter if it is to a public campground like a state park or a private rv park you need reservations. There are first come first serve places like National forests or BLM were you might be able to get a spot but even those are becoming iffy. In the Alabama Hills by Lone Pine there is a thousand acres of BLM land were you could drive up and camp for free. But now they are reducing the area you can camp in and also going to charge you a fee to camp. The main reason this is happening is there were too many people camping and they were leaving all of their trash. We have to remember that these departments like BLM and National forests first job is to protect the land, not camping. So because of inconsiderate campers there are less places to go. Another problem is when that window opens up for reservations everyone gets online and make reservations even if they are not sure they will be going there. They just want to have reservations at different places so they can choose we’re they want to go. So it is February and I am trying to make reservations at the Redwood National Park for July. But many of the campgrounds in the Redwoods have either 2 spots available or zero. However in June there may be more spots available because some people will be canceling their reservations. We campers are sometimes a bit greedy. So I July of 1964 we drove to Tulomeme Medows in Yosemite. The campground had maybe 10 campers in it. We spent a week there and drove home. Those days are over. If you want to be by yourself and not make reservations, go to the places that are less popular. Otherwise forget about being spontaneous and make reservations for your 4 week trip.
Ty. Appreciate the insights into the details out there
Our dealer had very little stock this summer. I was at the dealer last week and they are packed with stock. The price increasing may be over pricing buyer out. I would not buy our 2021 camper with the price it has now.
Agreed, I bought an entry level camper in November of 2016 for $12,500, I checked in December and the exact same unit at the same dealership was $22,500! This is a very basic 18' single slide unit with zero frills. If the base entry point has essentially doubled then how much have you priced young families out of the market? And if they don't get to RV as kids how likely do you think it is they'll take it up later in life? Industry is not only killing current demand, they're also killing future demand. But hey, for the last 3 years they've sold everything they can make at record profits so the executives and shareholders got paid.
What did you end up choosing Jeff?
Josh we have a 2021 imagine 2500rl. The MFD is July 2020 the list price was around $37,000 at that time. Our dealer Bill Thomas in the St. Louis area. They have a 2022 2500RL with list price of $52,000. It has been on the lot for a month. It has power jacks and I know Grand design made upgrades to the 2022. All the upgrades are great but all comes with a cost. That's at a point to much for me. I am good with our 2 way frig and manual Jacks. Love your videos and the monthly updates.
We just returned from the Detroit region's biggest RV show in Novi. Did see Josh there talking to customers. I was shocked to see the dramatic increase in prices from just a few years earlier. I bought a Keystone Bullet 35ft TT in 2017. It was $23k plus TT and the cost of two slide toppers for both slideouts. A similar double slide fiberglass/aluminum framed ultra lightweight coach from Keystone (both Bullet and Passport) coach were being advertised close to $40k as the show price. One floorplan (similar to our bunkhouse) was $46k! Unbelievable...nearly double in price in 5 years. If something isn't wrong with this scenario, I must be stupid and blind. All the sales reps that I met said the same thing. In the next couple of years, I don't see this ending well, for both consumers and dealers.
Suffice it to say, I'm keeping my paid for coach as we still have 3 children under the age of 12. Going to Alaska with it this summer for 2 months too. So happy I'm not an active buyer in this market.
You asked for problems…
We purchased a 2021 Wildwood Hertiage Glen it was new. 3 weeks later we discovered a leak. Our under bed compartment had flooded . Everything under the bed and the front storage area was sitting in a puddle. We brought it to the dealer and they searched for the leak. The dealer said it was from a window, they removed it and resealed it. They replaced the wood that was damaged. Forest River refused to cover it saying it was lack of maintenance. It leaked two more times in the front and twice from the slide. Forest River refused to cover any of the repairs. Once more it leaked from the front. We traded it in and purchased a new 2023 Jayco. We have been campers for over 50 years and have purchased about 18 units from pop ups to class C to class A , to Fifth wheels and travel trailers, we were never treated so poorly as we’d were from Forest River.
Wow I am sorry to hear this. Seems hard to consider a claim maintenance based when it’s only 3 weeks old
Amazing job as usual Uncle Josh! Thank you for the update, I love this part of the channel, it is informative and entertaining 🤩 we appreciate everything you do! 💯 #bestwishesfrombish's
Thanks for following through and making this video Josh! We appreciate your input and updates!
I appreciate all the questions and suggestions that come from this audience. Folks like you were the ones that really drive this channel
The bent frame horror stories, has put the idea of an ultralight trailer into the sounds like a good idea but not on my hard earned dime mode.
Planning ahead is the new way to go camping. We have the entire 2022 year planned and reserved.
Attaching the A-frame BELOW the main frame is a recipe for disaster. The A-Frame (hitch / tongue) needs to be integrated into the main frame.
It’s not terribly expensive to weld on a new a-frame that is attached below the main frame rails. A formed and integrated a-frame made from the frame rails would likely total the trailer when it bends, provided it doesn’t overload the tow vehicles frame and bend it. Both scenarios are worse than what we have now.
The real problem is that the tongue is a 2x6" tube welded together out of metal not quite 1/8" thick.
On the subject of frames.
First I’m not calling your integrity into question let’s be clear. But it is interesting that now both you and BTBRV have parroted the same what I’ll call Lippert “talking points” about how the frames are specced and how Lippert can’t control what happens beyond that.
My take. Yes your right that Lippert loses control of the frame once it leaves their facilities. But they are involved in the warranty side so it behooves them to be sure that their product is being used appropriately. They don’t just get a free pass on this issue. 2. There are plenty of ongoing issues with RV frames and suspension that Lippert doesn’t get to duck either. Like all the spring and hangar failures on 5th wheels. Finally Lippert gets and deserves a HUGE rasberry for how their customer service handled the incident in question. As does Keystone who having been made to look bad is now trying to backpedal faster than an NFL quarterback dealing with a bunch of lookout blocks.
On the subject of campgrounds. We took delivery of our trailer (thank the good Lord) in March of 2020 just before the world shut down including campgrounds. So that first summer all our reservations were being made on the fly. It worked and it was nice not to have to plan months in advance. Last year we made most of our reservations well in advance (I could read the tea leaves) and those that we didn’t left us unable to camp. So this year again we are booking well in advance which is a huge pain in the rump. Especially when you find out a campground you loved normally remains sold out all the time because people who go there book their sight for the next year while they are there. For reference we live and camp in Virginia and the NE.
Thank you for sharing. I didn’t realize JD had talked about this as well.
@@JoshtheRVNerd interesting. Just saw a post in the Grand Design RV Imagine Owners FB group of a member with a 23BHE that had a cracked a frame. There is an LCI truck at his house doing the repair under warranty for him. Now maybe GD and LCI have a contract the includes service like this. Every component on every RV could fail even those like frames that shouldn’t. It’s what happens after the failure that I think matters most to the majority of us. When I see a picture of a trailer with a broken frame and an LCI truck on site making it right my reaction is “that’s a company I want to do buisness with.” When I see a company with a product that goes bad and refuses to acknowledge that and proceeds to point fingers at everyone else (I’m looking at you Furrion and your miserable AC thermostat design) it makes me want to run in the other direction.
For example the other day I seriously thought about calling our Salesmen and asking about trading our 2021 2800BH in on a brand new 22 with all the upgrades and then I stopped cold when I remembered it would mean being stuck with Furrion AC units.
Just one man’s thoughts. Thanks for all the great videos and more importantly being willing to engage your viewers.
Apparently, there's no Safety Factor built into those frames.
As Josh said ...
That's all on the RV manufacturer and what they request from the frame manufacturer.
Too much over-engineering costs more money, and means more weight.
@@georgekatsinis5224 If there's ever an accident and someone is hurt, it will be on the frame manufacturer as well as the RV manufacturer. I have almost 50 years in design and manufacturing of equipment. You put your name on something, you have a legal liability. Ever hear of deep-pocket lawsuits?
We just made reservations at 5 different Cape Cod campgrounds for several months from now. For us, Cape Cod is a very hot item on the New England coast. We have had to make reservations for the Cape for almost ever. Except for holiday weekends, we can always find a place to camp "close" to where we want to be. Move in 10 miles from the Cape and, no issues getting a place. Spontaneous is fun, but there are more challenges now than ever, and you need to be flexible and willing to adapt quickly. I spent the first 40 years of my life winging it and loved it. But, expectations needs to be realistic. Thanks for talking about the bent frame thing. Oh, the guy driving the blue tractor was funny, near the end of the Video, he came around, saw you, backed up and hid behind a camper and then poked back out when you were further away! It was cute because I told my wife he just backed up to hide for a minute, and out he comes!!
That’s kind of what I suspect is a bit of an issue. There are the “primary” places everyone wants to go. Then there are the second and third layer of places that likely are more readily available but aren’t necessarily someone’s preferred destination
Nothing will “Heftify” a frame more than lithium battery banks. Also, a blowout could potentially puncture the battery cell (depending on where they are placed, but they would have to be mid ships for weight distribution. You have seen the self-immolating Tesla’s, so imagine your 100K plus RV going up in flames. I do like the idea of a controlled front wheel for moving the RV since I am backing challenged. Thanks for the update!!
I don't know what they are called but, they make motorized attachments that can move smaller trailers. I've seen them a lot in Australian or European informational videos. Maybe it's something you can get shipped here now? Never looked into it ha They also have a motorized jack type thing. It's like a big shop car jack with a motor. Would be really helpful in tight places.
Josh... You are one of the best presenters of products that I have seen on the internet. As you know, consumers have been beaten to heck for the past few years with price and inventory. We need a break!!! This current pricing is LUDICROUS!!!
You obviously don't hear me arguing with you about the pricing issue. What's going to happen at some point is dealers are going to get caught in a pinch. I've seen it before.
It's just a matter of when.
@@JoshtheRVNerd Josh... I should have explained myself better. That comment was regarding the pricing of the entire market and not aimed at Bish's or anyone in particular. Thus, it was unfair to make such a statement without being very clear on that. Thank you for your response and I do very much appreciate your videos and shared perspective.
Keep up the good work and we can all hope that that the United States will begin to produce for ourselves and our allies again.
@@timstevens5769 Appreciate the clarity. Have a great day, Tim :)
OK, now that I watched the whole video, my thoughts. LCI builds to customer specs, if specs aren't provided they use the baseline for that frame. If the manufacturer who ordered that frame then builds on it, but doesn't know what they are doing, thats the problem. I would be surprised if LCI did not provide maximums for the frame they built and the manufacturer thought they could squeek by. It would be like a manufacturer rating a half ton at 1400 pounds payload, and the owner of the truck putting a 5th wheel with a 2500 pin weight and wondering why the axle snapped, then blame the car company. There's the specs, you exceeded them, not my problem.
You made a most excellent point on the WDH. The way a WDH is by leverage. The simplest explanation is a long bar attached to the receiver and you are at the end of it lifting up to move the weight forward to the front axle. You carry some of the weight, the front axle carries some of the weight, and that weight is removed from the rear axle. Replace you with the frame of the trailer, but instead of a long bar, it is replaced with two much much shorter bars, and each bar has a set tension rating. Instead of you lifting the bars though, the bars are pulling down on the frame, creating the leverage needed to move the weight. That picture of the bent frame is an excellent example of this. The leverage on the trailer is between the ball and the mid point of the frame, but the mass is behind the midpoint, so the weakest portion takes the brunt, and that is where the A connects to the frame.
Another aspect of WDH is control. A good WDH provides more than just weight distribution, they also have sway control. They use friction to do so, and too heavy a bar can reduce the amount of friction needed to prevent sway. When you properly set the tension to move the proper amount of weight, there may not be enough tension to activate the sway control on them. Maybe this could be another of your videos.
More hitching based info is definitely in order for this year
An issue with the bending of frames that I don't think is being addressed is the way that the bracket of the weight distribution hitch, the one that attaches to the frame is usually secured. Right now it is by tightening a rather large bolt on the back. Any amount of over tightening of that bolt, which is easy to do against that 1/8 thick section of frame tubing will begin a process of collapsing the frame in that area. Once that collapse begins the upright part of the frame is compromised. Add to that any overweight conditions and it's a disaster waiting to happen. The reality is that the bolt, at least a large diameter one may not even be needed. All the weight is pulling the bracket down onto the frame so it can't fall off. If the concern is it sliding during use, then perhaps a much smaller bolt lightly tightened is an answer or even a way to limit how far that bolt can protrude to the inside of the bracket. Also the bracket could be a bit longer to spread out the load a bit.
That’s a great point regarding that bolt on bracketing.. thank you for this
@@JoshtheRVNerd That bolt is just a light clamp most of the weight from the hitch chains is DOWN.
Good point, but the failures I've seen haven't been at the WD mount - you'd expect the failure at that spot if it was indeed compromised.
Honestly you don’t sell a RV part that isn’t safe. Would the manufacturers of water heaters take no responsibility if the units started on fire if the RV manufacturers of the RV change where it’s installed. I call BS Josh. The frames are 1/8” thick that failed.
If the rv manufacturer requested 1/8" wall thickness they VERY LIKELY got a Frame with 1/8 wall thickness.
All valid points, Josh. But it's too easy for LCI, the manufacturer, and the customer to pass the blame among each other.
I've been RVing for over 40 years. I want a strongly built unit, not the lightest, the one with the most "fluff" or the prettiest.
For these reasons, I think my next rig will be an Arctic Fox or another Northwood brand. They build their own frames and their rigs seem to weigh 2000 to 3000 lbs more than similar models from other manufactures. Crawl under one and look. They are much better built than my Grand Design or my Big Horn.
about the pricing. Joe did that
we got our 2022 cougar 22 mls last month at 2021 price,in 3 months from order to delivery.joe had nothing to do with it.
@@edwardcote1331 lol ok whatever you sat brother to make you sleep good at night
@@edwardcote1331 ooh i am sorry your anecdotal example rules out inflation and everything! thank you! hahaha liberals are truly mentally ill
Im a certified welder and i plan on redoing and adding to the welds to make it much better on my travel trailer. Ive seen undercut and other weak welds and i have fixed those. I will feel so much better once i have redone all the welds and added welds which will make the frame better.
Solar batteries put a strain on cargo capacity. Electricity using solar is coming but it is not here yet (for smaller trailers). Remember in the beginning of electric cars it was said, "do you know how many moving parts are on a car? It will not be hard to recharge the batteries." What happened? Over promising. Maybe in 4-5 years from now a break through can alter everything. I am seeing rather small travel trailers trying to add too many solar batteries and leave 1,000lbs for all cargo and family. Talking about overweighted trailers, cargo capacity is left out of many websites. It should be required for base model. Manufacturers don't want that. Overweighted trailers hit hard pot holes and you you get problems. Manufacturers are withholding information. Josh, thank you for your videos. You walk a tight-rope and you are seeming to pull it off.
Balance is the key
We are in the southeast and almost impossible to find a campsite inside of 6 months. Gulf coast camping is almost one year out on booking!
I agree with you, Josh. The manufacturer is rating the product for loading, etc. Any failure is on the manufacturer. Even poor welds, etc. should be addressed in the manufacturer’s contract with the supplier. Frames that do not meet the manufacturer’s specifications should be rejected by the manufacturer.
It's such a slippery slope. It really is. At some point it seems like someone should also ask "Okay, we're building these things how we're asked to build them but they're failing. Should we refuse and tell them we need to make them differently?"
I won't pretend to know 100% of the ins and outs. But man.. when you're the frame maker and you make 95% of towable frames it seems like that's something you could sort of push out there.
@@JoshtheRVNerd I respectfully disagree. The supplier’s job is to meet the manufacturer’s specifications. The supplier should not have to try to anticipate how the manufacturer might misuse the product. But it may create a perception issue of the supplier by end users. And I might be wrong.
That’s how my dad did camping/rv-ing, just head out and find a place. This was pre-cell phone. In his truck camper he would just find a nice backroad and dry camp overnight.
we still do this exclusively.we hardly ever book a site or even plan a trip. we just go, but we're in Canada and take advantage of forest service campsites and boondock everywhere we go.an unplanned trip is otherwise known as an adventure, and we've had some fantastic adventures over the years and i don't forsee us ever doing it any other way.
Thank you for a great video. It seems the person on the tractor was stalking you. Kept waiting for the theme music from Jaws to play whenever the tractor was close. 😁🤣
I feel badly for our tractor guy. I felt like every time I turned the corner I was in his way. Seems like no matter where I went he was there
I find it interesting that there is a statement here claiming owners are using the wrong weight distribution hitch and "overbuying" the weight rating. But, it's the RV salespeople that are selling them. I just bought my first trailer last week. The dealer wanted me to pay $1200 for a Curt WDH rated at 10,000lbs for my 4,000lbs Wolf Pup. How often is it the dealer just trying to make a buck off of a new RV owner that doesn't know any better? They are told it's mandatory equipment and they buy it.
I have found in my time doing research leading up to my purchase, and the issues I have had in just one week of ownership, that both RV manufacturers and dealers will lie, say anything to make a sale, and present flat our incorrect information about everything.
Often it's not the salespeople selling the hitch. It's a parts person using the hitch they're allowed to stock.
There's plenty of exceptions of course. This only highlights the issue that there are _multiple_ parties involved here and there are multiple causes -- and often more than one involved in a given scenario.
We travel to Florida with our 25 Travel trailer for business. The last 6 weeks till today we have not been able to find a single camp spot at any state, national, RV or resort parks in middle and SE Florida. All tell us they are booked till May.
May? Wow
I think inexperience plays a factor, drive accordingly and a lot of these problems go away.
Let's not forget about the people that use a truck that is not big enough to tow a particular rv. Install air bags then air the crap out of them. The suspension on the tow vehicle is designed to absorb impacts. If it can't because someone puts 50-60 pounds of air in the bags. The weakest point will eventually fail.
Back in 1986 as I graduated from high school. My parents downsized their RV from a 19’ Prowler to a Scamp that I call a the Walnut, because of its two piece shell look. When my dad tried to use the weight distribution hitch he used on the Prowler. It lifted one of the unloaded Scamps wheels off the ground. We had Motorhomes all my life and the Prowler was our first trailer. So lots of experience in one aspect of an industry is not always enough. That’s where the dealers come in. Also your ability to put aside your ego and listen. I am not referencing any event or story. Just a cautionary tale.
walnut lol