Why I Left the Plumber's Union...
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- Опубликовано: 13 дек 2020
- I used to be a huge advocate for the plumber's union, especially my local union. But I've left the union and I want to address why I left.
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Did I make the right call?
In my opinion yes 👍
Honestly for the most part unions suck they don’t back their workers very well
Yes I have no respect for unions
It's your job the only opinion that truly matters is yours
No you did not.
I was a union member for 25 years. One of the biggest complaints I had with the union was if you didn’t agree with their political views you were an outcast. I also hated that part of my dues would go to corrupt politicians that the union leaders were in bed with!
100% agreed!
Lol if you don't pay dues they just take the money out of your check without you knowing and give it to the same politicians anyhow
I suppose it depends on where you live, my friend is in the UA and the vast majority of workers are conservative despite what the union says. Then again the biggest city in his area is only 110,000 people.
Union leaders generally will support candidates who support your right to unionize. That's not unreasonable. They don't care if you're pro choice or pro life, in favor of higher or lower property taxes, etc. They want you to be on more equal footing with your employer. So if you prefer a political candidate who is against your right to bargain collectively, your union will (of course) prefer that you not vote for that candidate. It's not because "they" hate your political opinions, it's because the candidate you prefer would prefer that you not have the right to bargain with your employer fairly.
@@sford what if i told you that the entire political establishment is one giant good cop/bad cop grift designed to make you fear for loosing your job/benefits. all of these politicians pretend to hate each other but IN actuality party with eachother and screw all of us.
"If I got married to a woman with 25 kids.." whoa Roger sir, let's calm down here hahaha😂..great video as always!
I mean... you know she will put out
With a mustache like that, they were probably already his.
@@galvanizedgnome hell if it’s that it’s easy as hell to find a chick that’ll put out without the extra baggage an bills of 25 lol
25 kids and counting doesnt sound great
@@dancearoundtheworld5360 indeed lolol
i have been part of a couple of unions, they both were very happy to collect dues, but when you actually needed them they left me and others without lifting a single finger to help
Unions, because paying tax once just isn't enough.
unions i been in didn't really care, they just wanted to collect they never did much for me, so i don't know when union is good thing, personally wish i wasn't part of any of them
Only good union for the people are police unions but they are also a problem
@@TheKento10 police unions are one of the big reasons large cities have bad cops.
@Tilc Rekcil Yes. Public sector unions are not good.
One thing that I really love about this man is even though he's been hurt and ripped off by people he thought he could trust he still doesn't let it all get to him and he still has a good attitude. That's a great sign of leadership
I REALLY needed this video. As a teenager who has spoke to both union and non union representatives its nice to see a outside perspective.
Not everyone gets to own their own company so I'd take the union job for the the security. Also the training would be the best you can get and pay scale would be more than non union. So Roger is speaking for himself as an owner now and not as an everyday plumber.
It’s also important to look at what you’re doing. If you’re going commercial or to big contractors, unions definitely the way to go. Unions cater towards the big companies because that’s where the money’s at to keep the union going, so you, as well as the contractor gets treated a lot better. If you’re going into small businesses or wanted to start your own then the union will gladly take the money, but you won’t get the same amount of value from it as with bigger companies
@@stormingee "Not everyone gets to own their own company" That's correct, but in all honesty, isn't that a choice? Like anyone one of us could choose to be financially responsible put in the time effort and skills to open a business, it's just that many of us won't. So it's basically, for those that will not open a business choose union and be financially responsible so that you are secure by the time of retirement OR work for a plumbing business that isn't union like the guys company in the vid.
@@stormingee that isnt 100% true. I fix union mistakes all day. Unions also dont add any hob security. How come non union workers are laid off far less then union? Unions also protects lazy workers
@@marty4760 cheap labor that's why. No benefits.
Local 5 out of DC has an amazing training facility. They have great service classes that teach residential plumbing, water heater troubleshooting, snaking, jetting, camera
Roger,
I'm sad to here you've been black balled, I was hoping they weren't like that after i left Dallas and transferred. You were one of my instructors 5 or 6 years ago and the best class was the green energy/gray water subjects.
I hope your new venture will get your what you want. Definitely be challenging for sure.
Is black balled the same as blacklisted?
@@jamesmurphy7828 basically
@@jamesmurphy7828 yeppers, it are.
...shortly after the release of this video Roger Wakefield went missing...
I suddenly imagined Rogers video's beginning with the theme from the Sopranos
Counter Revolutionary Capitalist Rodger did not have glorious revolutionary Party Approved Correct Thinking and Speech about the people's unions. Purged.
He got cement shoe treatment and is swimming with the fish in Lake Michigan.
@@zackzander425 nah, they threw him in the gulf, this is texas we're talking about
Remember, if anything happens to him, Roger Wakefield did NOT kill himself and he did NOT have an "accident."
I was in the IBEW working industrial construction. I left when I took a maintenance job. Honestly, there are good things about the union, but as a worker I feel the bad outweighs the good. In all my union jobs we had an adversarial relationship with the employer and that was hard for me and caused many people not to care. There is also the extra layer of politics. Training was amazing, but it was rare to actually use that training in the field. I was trying to get my instrumentation apprenticeship, that was next to impossible. Now I've been non union with my company for 5 years, 3 years as an electrician and now I am working on automation and programming on a DCS and I do not have an adversarial relationship with my employer.
I can speak to the adversarial relationship with your employer. When employees in the union have this type of relationship with their signed union contracted employer, it usually means the union leadership and that employer are not in lock-step. This usually happens when the union gets to decide for an employer, who they get as an employee, what rate they should pay, and how to conduct their business, not according the employers own rules but has to adhere to everything the union has put in place for them. This toxic way of conducting business permeates into the work environment.
There's also the fact that union workers don't give a crap about their current employer because they can simply screw up and be sent to another employer without consequence, and the new employer don't even get to know the history of that employee.
The union has become toxic for the industry and it's all in their leadership. When you have a good B.A. running things, you rarely have this issue, but when you have a leader who's all self-serving and into politics and nothing else, you'll have this. Union members need to be more serious about who they elect as their leaders. They rarely do their research when voting and usually just votes for the most likely to win or whom everyone's voting for. Opposition is rarely seen when it comes to this probably because, politically, the union has its members by the balls...TOXIC
The union's got a great message...Change the self serving model the union's put in place and you might have a chance to save the unions, but at this time, people are waking up to their corruptness.
@@apbpa5042 What rules do the bosses have but work the longest hours, at the lowest wage and at the fastest pace with no mistakes.
If I had 25 kids, I would work union every waking moment. Not because I need the money or the insurance, but because I don't want to go home!
I mean how would you get those 25? You clearly liked it for atleast a little while.
Myself I have been a member of 344 in OKC for 40-years, 25 as a member only and 15 years as a contractor. I am second generation member of this local, and have always been proud of that. When I first started, in business, my son was at my side as we turned no work down to survive. 15 years later we have 70 employees and competing with contractors that have been at this since way before my time. We have a wonderful team at our Local union. Yes we have our differences at negotiating time when they are pushing for more pay and benefits for the members, and us contractors pushing for the opposite in order to stay competitive against the non-union contractors. I am glad to offer the great pay and benefits that were always offered to me. Im not telling you it was easy at first, it was not. But with hard work, determination. and honesty, it can be done. I am glad to be able to have remained a union contractor. We do pretty much everything from a 4 million dollar job, to a one sink add in a downtown office building, We dont turn a lot of work down, but seem to always keep a fairly steady work flow to keep our employees with a 40 hour check, and sometimes a lot of overtime. We have great bunch of guys, and if they were lazy they would not be working for me.. We do plumbing and HVAC service, (but not a lot of residential.) remodels and new construction, schools, hospitals, office buildings, hydronic piping, medical gas piping, backflow testing, pump, AHU ,boiler, and chiller replacements. We are in several Hospitals right now running larger oxygen lines to help keep Covid patients alive because the current lines are not large enough for the oxygen demand. There are a lot of members off of work now because of the pandemic. We recently hired more certified med gas installers to complete these tasks. One issue I see is that with all the members off of work, how few off of work dont have that certification. Our union training school is awesome and offers training for this along with backflow testing, plumbing licensing for fitters, HVAC licensing for plumbers, CFC recovery, welding, OSHA training (which is mandatory on a lot of projects) confined space training etc... The union cannot force the members to take these classes. I always went and received all the training offered, and carried all the licenses I could obtain,. This does nothing but make you more desirable when employees need to hire people again. And by the way I was an instructor before I went in business, but the time I had to dedicate to that forced me out of that.
Just joined the 344
Facts!! This is why I’m going to join the Union as a contractor. Right now I’m basically paying a temp labor agency damn near union wages and in return I’m getting drunks and pill heads who are costing me more money then they are making me. It’s totally embarrassing.
Congratulations, south in general is tough for unions. Glad you made it 👍
Hi Roger thank you for making this, I'm dealing with this exact dilemma right now only for electrical and I think you hit it right on the head. Love the channel and all the best
I literally am the least handy man and have no interest in any of this stuff yet I keep watching Santa's content. Keep up the good work!
My dad retired as a union carpenter (50 years!) And it gave everything to our family. This is a damn shame. Union labor is already so rare in the US and it not supporting contractors who want to us their labor is appalling.
Did you watch the whole video? It is fairly specific to plumbers and in particular residential service plumbing. Glad that your dad had a good life and retirement as a union carpenter.
Want to say thank you for the inspiration. Been watching you awhile now and it helped me narrow down what I want to do in life. I'm 22 and starting my first day as an apprentice tomorrow. Thank you Roger.
Can we get an update on how you’re doing?
Yeah fr how’s it going
sup with an update son? did you flood a house?
any updates?
We’ll, few years later, I worked for two different companies and learned a hell of a lot. No houses flooded, just a hairline cracked ceiling when I was up doing a repipe once.
Turning 25 this year and I’m serious with a girl that I want to start a life with with kids not too long down the line. $18-$22 an hour wasn’t going to cut that, so I went back to school to finish my degree in computer science so I can afford the family and life that I want.
Met a lot of good people; worked with the good, worked with the bad. Lot of memorable experiences I wouldn’t trade for anything else. Thank you guys for asking.
Your view is correct,
I’m a union millwright , there is a small group with in the group that stay busy. It’s a buddy club.
The training is great, but the work not so much.
I was in a union for 8 months, they took on average $1200 a month for dues and other various fees and when we had a legitimate concern they literally said “what do you want us to do “. They informed me after I quit that it would be impossible to work as a plumber in that town without being union. They were wrong.
Roger, I came up Union through the 5 year apprenticeship program and then some... I now have my Masters and in the startup phase of building a residential service plumbing company. I appreciate your videos. It would be nice to talk to you in person one day. It looks like we have a lot in common through our career experiences. Have a good one, brother.
Hey Roger, this is spot on! You put in a video everything I have said out here in Chicago for years. I am a 10 year former union plumber turned residential service plumbing company owner. Amen Brother!
I'm trying to get into the Union here in Chicago too. any tips for getting in?
@@costarika100 probably a solid idea to talk to plumbers in your area and ask if they are or aren't in a union and why prior to seeking one out. If you like what you hear ask the companies for their union reps number. If the rep is worth their salt they can hook you up.
I’m in Boston’s local 12 and we just opened our own residential service wing and those apprentices train with us commercial apprentices in the same training center! I’m so sorry you had a bad experience!! My local is super awesome for me ( i don’t want to open my own company) so I’m looking at it like you said as an employee! Either way I’m glad i watched this video!
I was in a union for 8 years and long story short, being on the autism spectrum it was a social nightmare to me and the union went from telling me that I was welcome to going to their union office till one day I went there and they berated me on if I had an appt. there when I wanted to make a friendly visit. Furthermore, they stonewalled me for some reason in giving me a seat at the table to interview Presidential candidates for the 2020 election. Finally when I aired my grievances with the union I was in they seemed to have ghosted me and I don't think they'll want me back again. Now that I'm in a non-union job I get much more respect, value and dignity from my boss and patrons.
I got out because I was irritated that I kick butt and was getting the same pay as the lazy butts and screw-ups. I enjoy being incentivized by my top pay and bonuses.
Unions are close kin to socialist systems. They destroy individual incentive and motivation.
@@waterheaterservices you are brainwashed
@@aydencz1239 as some one who has been through economic great times, and bad times. As a union employee our wage has always been higher, than non union.
Also seeing the 5 or so shops in my city that were once union get their employees to vote non- union, It always benefits the employer. My buddy went from 39$ an hour plus 4.50$ an hour in pension, to 32$ an hour with no pension. Plus anyone that uttered the word union was laid off due to " lack of work".
@@waterheaterservices Other people say that they do not do that in the real world. Basically it seems to me that people like you who are anti-union are pissed that people are joining together and you cannot expect them to work themselves to exhaustion day in and day out, wearing out their bodies for a pittance of pay.
@@christopherkidwell9817 We have labour laws. There is no reason to have a union if you do your job. Period.
Nice work! I’ve been service plumber for 29 years still Liking it lol! Thanks for your show! Learning a lot from it ! Keep up the Good work someday we will see daylight take care!
Boston local 12 has the training your talking abt, we also now have a residential division. But I do agree with your choice, with what you were dealing with. There is a lot of misconceptions out there abt the union, this video helped. So far I love being in it, it’s not perfect, but it’s great for me and my family. My local normally offers family activities throughout the year, obviously COVID has stopped it this year. But all in all Boston has been a great experience, especially the training.
Absolutely agree! It pissed me off that through nepotism we have a guy on our crew who can tie his shoes,but he makes the same money as me! Not to mention he works alot of OT,because he just can't manage time,it sucks!
I was in a union for 40 yrs., different trade, but I could say everything you just said, I feel your pain!
I’m in local 43 in Chattanooga Tennessee and they do train residential and commercial. I’m a pipe fitter but I have a lot of friends that are in the plumbing program and own union company’s! But I have heard of a lot that don’t train in certain areas.
I’m a proud member of Local 367 up here in Anchorage Alaska! My hall teaches service/HVAC class, it’s around 9-10 months long 2 4 hour long classes per week 5-9p and it’s a great thing! After watching your video I realize how lucky I am to have a local chapter that provides that opportunity to me free of charge
as an apprentice this is something ive wondered about... the service guys at the company i work for are almost all guys who organized in... and i havent heard of any service training at the hall...
I'm an apprentice at Union 519 in Miami Fl, they do an excellent job here training both sides of the industry, commercial and residential.
@@dakkerrins6344 from what i have read most are like me, they have either been forced out, kicked out, black balled, or in some way form or fashion directly forced to end thier career in that specific field due to union, now i personally wish i was a lot smarter and not disabled, otherwise i could have finished my apprenticeship, and became a master or even a specialized tech, but the point is before even i knew that i was disabled, i was targeted, singled out and kicked out. again i loved working for the union, they have a great school, although your classes are self taught, they have great pay, and freakin sweet insurance, and love how if in between jobs in your area and you cant travel due to going to school, they help take care of unemployment, and makes it easier to go back to work and faster.... but the fact remains they are greedy, self centered, self serving, and will go out of their way royally screw someone over out of spite, and it does not matter the reason you left, unless you retired "in good standing" then your life is a living hell after. that is all anyone is saying is they have had the same or similar instances as him, no one is hating on the union, just that some of their practices are wrong, or morally wrong, or they have been done overly wrong, they are not saying every single aspect is bad . if you read a lot of t he comments they mostly focus on one or two things and compare with a bad experience they have endured that correlates to he has said. no one is out right bashing they are comparing the wrongs, and i believe that like me they will have a lot of positives (at least 4~5) things good to say about them. again i am personally grateful for the chance i was given and the opportunity to be in the ibew, and had atleast 4 good years of good pay, good insurance, good jobs that i actually enjoyed getting up to go to work. met many good (and bad) brothers and sisters and will always be grateful, but they did me dirty and did me wrong, as they have so many others but i am still appreciative of them.
@@dakkerrins6344 he literally was a union worker for 25 years. Did you even watch the video?
This video was so helpful, I'm glad you made this!
Yes, you made the right decision from an employer's perspective. I know it's not cheap to be a signatory contractor and the Union wants their money regardless of your money situation. They need to focus on increasing their market share in the building trades, to create more opportunities so it can be prosperous to be Union. They know what problems they face but their strategies aren't working.
Depends a lot on where you live, here in new jersey the unions are pretty strong and we have commercial and residential divisions and the benefit of being a union contractor is pretty substantial. It does suck that they screwed you over though, I don't blame you at all for getting out after that
Different perspective, I'm a welder and when I first got started I tried to go into the pipefitters union. Long story short, it was a total cluster. You don't get in unless you've got a friend to get you there, or you're a grandmaster schmoozer. Later in my career I tried a second time, different local, different state, same story. IMHO, unions are positioned where they could be awesome, but I think they are all crooked to the core. I don't think you can fix a system that broken. I don't begrudge anyone that goes union, but right now on the whole, I think they do more harm than good with anything they touch.
Damn. You make it sound like you are applying to a Masonic lodge. 😂
Nonetheless, sorry to hear about your poor experience applying to your local welders union. Makes me wonder what sort of experience I would find in my local HVAC union.
Took me two years to get into my trade union and I experienced first hand they always toook family and friends first was gonna switch trades til I finally got the call
Thanks for sharing. I'm starting in the plumbing trade and am also getting out of a clingy spiritual group of 9 years. I'm wary of any kind of "brotherhood" at this point. I am driven and take my work seriously, but don't need to be a part of a "brotherhood" of plumbers. There's more to life than our trade. I wonder if the union requires certain m4ndates...
Great video.Thx you... . My feelings and experience are very similar to yours.. Was fucked around with and got sick of the politics..14 good years with local .. Been in business for myself now for 10 years ..
I do miss the work and the guys .. And learned a ton.. Not many get to c the industrial side of plumbing.. I dont reget joining and i dont regret leaveing.. Win win
.
Good video!!
On my way to get my c36 too never knew about all that whole union thing crazy man sucks that they did that you but glad you left to become way better!
Plumbers local 68 in Houston tx, its great 👍 the stuff you talked about is very true about the unions
Is it easy to get started in local 68?
My dude I love your accent, something about it is just very nice
Great video, definitely appreciate hearing your opinions and experiences! My step-dad was a Union carpenter his whole life. He BLED Union. He had me watch the movie “Matewan” when I was maybe 10 or 12 years old to teach me the importance of unions to protect the working man. My older step-brother became a Union carpenter, and spent 15 years of his life in the Union before going off on his own before he passed away. I agree with all of the positive points you made about the Union, and I’ll add another one: the Union always made sure my dad had a job. When one project would end, they had another lined up, and all he had to do was show up. My biological father is in the automotive industry as a tool and die maker, and he has a lot of negative experiences with union members at car and truck plants. He told me horror stories of drugs used on site, drunk workers, sex between workers on site, and not hard to imagine terrible work ethos and ability. So, there’s two sides I guess. If the Union holds the members to high standards and an employer can go to them and say, “hey, these people aren’t cuttin’ it”, and the Union fixes the problem either through training or other means, I will always fully support unions. But, a few bad apples spoil the barrel. Thanks again for your video, I will definitely watch more of your videos.
this was insightful as someone who is trying to join the union, had an interview early this year buy because of covid my local did do not do training this year waiting to hear when my 2021 interview will be
Grievance hearings are already decided days before. The hearing itself is just a "going through the motions" act.
sounds to me like a Soviet Union style revolutionary tribunal.
@@Chrominance87 My father was in upper management of 2 major trucking companies. He knew the union leaders and had lunch with them the day before hearings. Who was kept, fired or paid claims was decided at that lunch. The rest was just going through the motions.
@@Chrominance87 Glorious revolutionary workers unions are close kin to The Party. Notice who they always endorse for public office.
You hit the nail on the head. The union doesn't work for residential service. Hourly for residential service kills your sales numbers.
Can't send a slacker to a resident who spends a week at a job when it could've been knocked out in 1 or 2 days.
@@TzUuup not even about slackers, but if a guy already has 40 hours and overtime it's Friday for example and the customer has a water heater issue, he's already made his money for the week. They tend to do band aid repairs so they can go home quickly. When you pay commission or a combo of hourly /commission, he's much more incentivized to stay late and install a new water heater for example. The customer is happier because they have the peace of mind that they won't have to worry about getting hot water for years to come and both the company and the plumber made more money.
For residential service hourly/salary pay just doesn't work, but for commercial service it can work.
@@charlesking4843 doing a band aid repair to leave early makes you a slacker in my eyes
Excellent information and insight
Good video, straight to the point, no intro bs, no dilly dally.
Keep it up
My union training focuses a lot on commercial/construction to the point that they won’t teach you how to run a string line and instead teach you to use the very expensive “Trimble” gps thing.
No way I can afford a “Trimble” for side jobs.
The union really doesn't want you doing side jobs. They don't get their cut and have no say or power in it.
🤣 better not let them know you’re doing “siders” 🤣
Roger, I'm a union plumber up here in Minnesota. I'm a little disenfranchised. I've been plumbing for over 30 years. I still love doing it. I don't want to sound like I'm blowing my own horn, but I'm good at it. And when your good at something, it doesn't really seem like work. At least, that's what it seems to me. I worked my first 10 years as a non union apprentice and journeyman before joining the union. There was a huge boom in construction at the time and a huge shortage of all tradesmen at the time. So I was welcomed in with open arms and to how it was it the best decision I've ever made. And it seemed that way for quite a long time. Until the crash of 2008. As good a plumber I was, I started getting laid off. Most of the time the first to go and then one of the last to get hired back on. Reason being: Unions are a lot like private clubs. With members that have generations of history. Grandfathers, fathers, uncles, cousins, in laws... I didnt have any relation in the trade much less the local union. That, and an animosity for journeymen that got in without going through the 5 years of night school training the union makes the apprentices go through. They call these guys " back door journeymen" or "de-tailed rats" . I loved the whole brotherhood ideology but when the work gets scarce...... Its not what you know or how good you are, its who you know or who you are. I've seen guys that literally didn't know the difference between a coupling and a union keep their jobs while I got my check and sent down the road. Multiple times. I used to associate with union brothers/co- workers off the job and thought of some of them as friends. I don't associate with any of them any more and when I am employed I go to work and keep my mouth shut, do my job and go home. Besides, I'm becoming the old man of the crew as a lot of guys I knew are retired. These younger guys don't seem to know the trade as well as I think they should considering the extensive schooling and training they go through. You are right about the training. No service or residential training. I believe that every apprentice should do one year of their apprenticeship in residential. In commercial plumbing, the blue prints show you where and what size the pipes should be. Not on a new house. You rely on your knowledge and mechanical skills. (And your body too!) There are so many new journeymen in our local that wouldn't know where to start if they had to plumb a new house. I even know a couple of journeymen who had houses built and let the general contractor use his normal plumbing contractor do the work on them. It seems the union doesn't care as much about that part of the trade. Our local even has a split scale for commercial and residential with residential getting less pay. Ludicrous! I'm still a member in good standing and when not working my union job, I'm keeping busy doing my "side jobs" , which are becoming to a point that I may have to make it legit and get my Masters license and start my own shop. The insurance and retirement plan is making it tough decision. I'm 51 years old, and that too is a deciding factor. Whatever the case, I will still enjoy and take pride in the work I do. I love your videos and its great to see another guy who's just as enthusiastic about talking and informing others about the trade as I am. Not only that, but also getting new information and learning new things about plumbing. I once had a first year apprentice ask me how long I've been in the trade. When I told him he responded,"You must've seen it all, then." I told him I've seen a lot but I haven't seen it all. I told him every day can be a learning experience and that day you stop learning is the day you hang the pipe wrench back up on the hook. The point came across a couple of hours later when we had a small hole in a stool carrier fitting show up on a air test
I was then shown how to weld a patch on cast iron! I always thought cast iron couldn't be welded! I told the apprentice, "See?"
At 51 i would ride that ship until you can retire at full pay out.
The retirement and health insurance are almost the best available.
You sir, are a well spoken gem!
Roger you are seriously the Professional when it comes to Plumbing. I learned some much from you. Thank you 🎉
So nice of you! I appreciate it
Thanks for the honesty, your a rareity these days.
As a member of Steamfitters local 449, I spent 41 years in a related trade. The ONLY weakness with union plumbing/pipefitters would be the residential side especially the service end. This is a great trade with many benefits that you mentioned & very few downsides. My union dues were only 3% not much to pay for the training/working conditions/benefits that you receive. United we stand, divided we fall
My union had a slogan, "United we stand, divided we beg."
Did you ever think of doing residential jobs on the side? Was it realistic or It's not even worth your time?
Hii I'm a new immigrant in California ( sorry about my poor English ) if u are reading my comment please help me because i don't have more information :(
i have 2 questions for you
1- How to know the union is strong or weak? Some people say unions those have " right to work law " is so bad and weak but i don't know how because in California it hasn't " Right to work law" but it has weak unions like frenso county or San Diego county so how!!
2- are union workers maybe laied off more than non union workers? i mean are non union workers have a lot of time and job security more than union? because i really afraid of don't the job get slow and laied off.
@@abanoubmelad2919 Yes good questions
As someone who might have to call a plumber for any reason, the biggest thing that I did NOT hear was any sort of consumer protection. I inherently heard the exact opposite "The union is there to protect (and benefit) its members and it will take it's members side over any consumer."
As a home owner if/when I called out a plumber I'm most likely to avoid union members simply because if there is a problem I've got a single person / company to deal with, not all the resources of a union as well.
Timothy when you call a residential plumber even if it’s a union shop, your only dealing with that company not the union. The union supplies a labor pool for the shop/business owner to use. At the end of the day the business owner is responsible for any work performed no different then non union. Although some shop owners are union members, they will not support crappy work or a person just because they are union, especially if the name of their business is at stake, again no different then a non union company. Shops don’t employ bad workers unless they don’t have a choice and need a person to get by to get a job done, shop owners can also layoff and or fire workers whom don’t perform well just like non union, only difference is that union guy will get another job through his union, instead of having to find it on his own. union shop owners don’t like to employ bad workers, they end up keeping the good ones they find or trying to. I think your miss understanding roger and don’t understand how unions work. And I don’t mean that in an insulting way. If your calling a plumber for residential work, your mostly gonna get non union, but if the company was union you might not even know unless you asked, same for commercial. The union and shop owners have contracts that they negotiate, for pay and benefits. Basically shop owners want to pay less and have better workers supplied to them by the union.
@@patmakein4709 I didn't misunderstand, It's just there are sadly far too many examples of people who don't have Roger's ethics or standards.
My core point is that there is nothing to incentive me to want insist on a having a plumber who is a union member do my work. Quite the opposite is true.
Some of Rogers other video's advise that we check if a plumber is registered (I'm not confusing union membership with having a licence).
Out of L.u 370 Michigan , I’m mostly a welder but have done it all.. set toilets to braze refrigeration, an even tig weld stainless... I love the union.. but I hear your frustration with one being affiliated with the hall, and also the fact they didn’t have service training is
You hit the nail right on the head Roger 100% across the board..Same problem in Kingston Ontario CANADA Local 401... LIARS....They dont say what they mean or mean what they say.
UA LOCAL 75 MILWAUKEE and Seattle Local 32 , great on this end . 16 years of service. Pros and cons for everything thing
Great video, pro union . Both unions had training programs multiple service classes, Both for residential and commercial contractors. Definitely a good video going to pass it on to my BA , as a reminder to the small Union contractors. Thanks Rob
So you can be part of 2 different unions?
@@jaymoress926 in the union you can go anywhere there is union and join.
Love your videos
As a non union plumber in Oregon prevailing wage is better. 65-85 dollars a hour is awesome
Used to have an apprenticeship with an ironworkers union and my god it was horrible. I left after 6 months and before I left I found out that all the higher ups were about to retire and were letting the union decay on the way out. They barely trained us before sending us on job site it was basically learn or quit and it pissed every single contractor/journeyman/foreman off to no end.
Unions are a mixed bag. Some are more useful than others, and you always get good and bad. I think you summed up how they are very well. I tend to lean on the non-union side, but then I’ve also known some people who were let down (as employees) by big promises and absolutely no follow through.
I think this and you are a part of the overall conversation about Unions in general. I think your perspective and experience are the very things missing from the conversation. As a person living in a state that basically doesn't use unions or unions don't operate in, it's very challenging to know and understand why people would join them and at the same time leave them.
Thanks for sharing the insight. You would hope one day the union gets serious about residential and service plumbers.
Roger, we live in different states, your story is my story. Union was great as an apprentice, but worthless as a contractor.
Hey Roger, thanks for the video. I’m looking into the trade, juggling wether I should do Union or not. After seeing this and reading the comments of the absolute vile practices of the Unions, I get a better and clearer picture. My Grandpa was one of the people fighting for the union in the 50’s (for trucking) and I’m sure he would be pissed off of what it’s turned into. Appreciate the video again and wish me luck on the plumbing trail!
You will do great. I started digging trenches and passing tool and said to myself this not for me. 6 years later I’ve work on commercial and residential and love it both now I have my crew and teach the people who wants to learn. A plumber that’s says I can’t it’s not a plumber. Anyone can become a teacher but not anyone can plumb. I wish nothing but the best in your new journey “dirty hands clean money “
Really interesting video Roger and great to see the breakdown between commercial vs residential needs. One question I have is as you are a contractor, do you have any regular contractors and do you supply them with insurance and retirement?
Nice video Roger
Very insightful. I like the stand you take.
It always seems good intentions, integrity, and philosophy are often trumped by greed and power.
Seems to be the case here.
I’m about to do the same next month and appear in front of the committee.
What was the outcome if you dont mind me asking?
@@wasitthat they don’t care about it , they think you have a mental Illness. All about the money .
Local 78 in Los Angeles CA. Does service training as well. I've been a 78 member for 20 years now but recently had to Las Vegas NV for family issues unfortunately I found out it's not that easy to transfer Local.I love my local I didn't always like who was running it. But now I'm actually considering going non union service cns I not able to do the transfer.
Las Vegas hates California Local Unions. Back in the 90's when the big revitalization was happening I placed my travel card in there and I never moved on the list. My brother was able to get in because he was from an Arizona Local.
@ ALEXXX, that sucks! I know the Teamsters union who I work for is easy to change locals. I switched 4 times, between 3 different locals.
there are many options open if you can not transfer, and before transferring im sure you know make sure lisc is reciprocal in that state, also you can do like they do in my area yes we have one decent sized city but it is an hour away and where i live there is only ONE union it is the ibew, and they let carpenters, iron workers, etc etc etc actually transfer over to the ibew due the amount of work here and there are literally hundreds of refineries withing a 15 mile radius and several hundreds to a thousand within a 100 mile radius...
You’re absolutely right!!👍👍
Great video.
You hit the nail on the head, I was in the Iron workers union (which is probably one of the more corrupt unions.) Being lazy is incentivized and everything is based on "seniority", so basically if you just hide out in a porta potty long enough, you will be running the jobsite, then you can hide out in your $60,000 air conditioned truck. I have always loved the idea of a union, but when put into practice, it is like socialism it just leads to rampant corruption. There is no incentive to be better and sometimes its actually the opposite, you are incentivized to be the laziest.
Loved the "Porta Potty" part
You have a glorified view of Unions. I would say the core is rotten and their are some good intentioned people.
I talked with a 50 year old plumber several years back, he had been laid off for a couple years, and the amount he was getting from the union was not covering the bills, and he was about at the end of what he could borrow. There were non-union jobs available but if he took one he would have to pay substantially more to be in the union, and that would leave him in the same boat he was already in. Further he had found that, being older, most large companies didn't want to pay the level of wages the union was guaranteeing him. These unions hook in young people with fantastic wages and benefits, that are well above what they are worth, and when they get old they get a fraction of what they need to cover basic living expenses, due to the fact that nobody will higher them. It is so backward it just makes me boil, its a such an EVIL way to treat people.
Then there is their history of brutally beating or kill people for crossing picket lines. Or them intimidating voters that want government mandated unions rained in or eliminated. Unions are just large corporations, with mega wealthy CEO's and upper management, that have been granted a level of legal protection, by the politicians they've bought, that no other business gets. And if things go sideways the government will bail them out, by STEALING my money. Or if they get in trouble they got politicians and Attorney Generals in their pockets to make it go away.
Also keep in mind unions are anti-capitalist, they don't want people going out and starting their own small businesses. They want to make the big companies bigger as the unions can get more money out of larger companies. Also fewer (large) companies makes it easier to raise prices (hurting the poor) and the unions can get more of those profits.
What they were in the early 1900's was a good idea, now they are the very problem they were fixing 100 years ago, and I would say 100 times more evil.
Hell yes.
As a total union despiser from the business pov I couldn't agree more.
Unions are the mafia.
Here in Philly they used to throw non union roofers off the roof.
The head of the IBEW here runs the city behind the scenes and has been raided by the fbi twice in the last few years and he also hit his corrupt brother on the PA state Supreme Court as a liberal lunatic judge.
As a worker, I'm sure it's fine but I look at things from a much broader pov and I totally agree with every word you said
@@djblock215 I have several family members that have had run-ins with philly unions. From IBEW to roofer to carpenter. People attacked with bats, thrown off roofs and even laying nails around work trucks to blow their tires. I’ve contemplated joining the philly IBEW several times but I’ve witnessed first hand some of the dirty tactics and intimidations. It’s a shame. On paper it is good, in practice it’s broken.
@@drakesprouse2224 thrown off roofs? WTF?!!!
@@juliestreet8688 In the 70's they were in leagues with the mafia in NYC
I'm a IBEW Union member and I love it.
I been on the fence about localizing my company. I was in the union for a short time in my apprenticeship. Same BS politics Thats been happening. Thanks for sharing your experiences.
My grandpa was pipe fitter and in union till day he retired (learned a lot from him, & also his stories), and have other family members in trades and within the unions for each. They can be good, & bad....unfortunately, imo, just the way it goes.
I have some experience with unions as well, & eventually got out.
Think it can depend where your at, & who’s “managing” the unions....
But yeah, being an employee IS different than being an employer within the Union, for sure
Paying sales commissions on residential service seems risky. Wouldn't that incentivise your workers to sell customers products they don't need?
Every year when I get my oil furnace serviced the tech is pushing me to get a new propane furnace. And oh, they can provide the tank that no one else can ever fill.
thts how you make money and use the cheapest pces of sht so you can keep getting the service calls to go back. no need to tighten union nuts tight or tie pipes so they cant rattle and come loose/free 🤔
Local 5 is actually doing service classes in the apprenticeship to help out the companies who only needed service plumbers.
My dad has owned his business for 26 years and had the EXACT same problems. This video is like hearing him talk, and they refuse to train for residential service. The last straw was that they wouldn't let me apprentice under him, so he got out and I'm in my second year now. All the run-around was so frustrating.
Don’t know where you are but some of the non union residential plumbing companies around here charge enough to pay union wages.
@@robertcoffman6082 oh yeah absolutely. We usually come in a few hundred under any of the larger non-union shops, and we're certainly not the lowest price in town
It’s unbelievable, but I have the exact same story, and my views are the same. It’s great if you only want to do one facet of the trade as easy as possible for the rest of your working career, but terrible for a residential/light commercial contractor. I’ve had the same experience. I own an hvac/r company and have been in business for 16 years. I have to get away now. They are not a fit for residential work. I couldn’t get trained guys, I had to do all the training, and it killed growth, and they are doing the same to me now as far as dishonesty goes. I’m going that situation now, it’s gonna be difficult. Thank you for your honesty
I’ve been part of the union foe 5 years started off as a pre-apprentice at the age of 35 I was going though the apprenticeship program like everyone else paying my dues. After an injury my insurance kicked in but I wasn’t working...I couldn’t get my hours or work experience cause I couldn’t walk for some time and I was under tremendous pain. I couldn’t pay my dues cause I was burly getting enough from unemployment and eventually I was expelled for not paying my dues when I tried coming back they tried to make me pay reinitiating fees which I had no money so I left and started working non union I got a couple of years of that and I missed the brotherhood so I tried to come back once again they wanted to start me off right where I left off and I said that was crazy and I told them my experience they didn’t want to give me any credit and once I tried to get my journeyman card they black balled me so bad that they didn’t even want to vouch for the time I spend there or provide work history to have the necessary time to even qualify for my journeyman test...cold hearted.
@@dakkerrins6344, apparently he was treated better.
@@dakkerrins6344 well if he wasnt treated better he would have NEVER returned after getting so many years experience and i have to admit from experience, that the union has some of the best schools, learning opportunities and teachers there are. and the whole "going back" that is non union mentality there because i promise after getting work exp. even IF you can pass state journey man test for your license, it doe NOT mean you know the codes, and i can 100% GARAUNTEE that does not know codes because they issue new books every 5 years with updates and at least 1/4~1/2 of said updates are on tests due to just getting years of experience and zero knowledge of law, and proper procedures. imo it is basically he can build a car but to build a machine that is a work of art like a Ferrari, lambo, rolls royce or other world class notable cars that are hand made takes a crafts man and that is what the union provides.... a craftsman, not just a worker, employee or lisc, worker.
If you got good plumbers you can pay them more than scale.
I’m waiting to get into the union here in Oklahoma Local 344 and from the guys I’ve talked to and who I’ve worked with they try to train, and certify everyone.
merit shop trained. worked local 166. spent years in travel and cost was much! went back to merit and started my own shop
You made the right call. When the Union straightens up, then return. In the meantime, use that 100k to invest back into your company.
100%
lol in a few days when we go looking for roger we might find jimmy ???? the maf.. i mean union never forgets👀😱🤷♀️
About your retirement plan comments for an employee....my grandfather was a union plumber in San Francisco for several decades. His union “invested” on his behalf. Within the next 10 years, my grandfather realized that he didn’t have everything that was promised. He ended up working for my father in a different industry until his death. I am definitely not a fan of unions that did that to my family.
100% agree with you great while I was an employee horrible when I'm an employer same here in Australia
When I graduated high school I went to the ibew to try and start an apprenticeship. They had me sign a bunch of papers and take a test then they told me i'd have an interview in 4 months. I went to an independent shop and had my interview with the owner that day and I've been working there for 2 years now. The local I went to called me 8 months later telling me my interview date but I already had a job. I don't hate the union or anything but they wouldn't even give me a chance. I've heard the same story from other people.
Theres two ways to get into a union. The long way and the faster way. You went down the long way, an Apprenticeship. you go through the union hall itself it can take forever. Like you said you have to wait for them to give out applications and wait on a line and hope you get one. Then you have to wait to take a test and if you pass you have to wait months for them to call you. The faster way of getting into the union is you call union companies directly and see if they are hiring helpers or mechanics or w.e your experience lvl is. If you get hired in about 45 days they send down to the union hall with a check to pay your Initiation fee and bam you're in the union.
@@JohnDoe-vf8cw haha I know that now. At the time that was the only way I knew how to.
@@dakkerrins6344 Where did you come up with this idea that I'm a helper? I'm a journeyman. I was put into the union as a 4th year. I didn't have to go to the union hall and wait on a line for god knows how many hours it get an application.
If I found out a girl I were dating had 25 kids then I would run for the hills! xD
The only reason you would find a girl with 25 kids is you "already ran to the hills." :-P
@@valkyriefrost5301 Or the hood.
If she had 25 kids I think you would find that out after your first "amorous" encounter......unless you're carrying a big cast iron pipe
think of all that welfare $$
@Robert Freisler no unfortunately there as smart as we think
I worked out of UA Local 228 in Yuba City, CA and Local 350 out of Sparks, NV. Went through the JATC for 1.5 years and only had 3 months of work. Only the local president and VP's kids had and steady work.
Local 228 was primarily pipe welder travel local. Almost no work in our own area unless you were a journeyman welder/fitter coming in. Local 350 was primarily commercial/industrial pipefitting and plumbing. I saw 2 service guys at 350 and they were both traveling in from Arizona. Lots of great people in that local at the ground level. Leadership was so-so at best as far as I could tell.
Got knocked off of a ladder and injured due to a shitty situation in a boiler room working at 350. The foreman, journeymen, and other apprentice all witnessed the situation and went to bat for me. But both union locals (my home and travel local) refused to accept my calls or respond to messages as I reached out for help with the workers comp and company safety investigation. I was still expected to pay dues while on disability. Once I recovered I left the union and moved over to non-union work. Been working steady for 4 years now with a blend of service, residential new and multi family construction, and commercial.
I would go back into the union at a different local for the training and benefits if a union contractor tried to recruit me. But I don't plan to actively seek out any further union work.
Thanks for this - I can't say you were wrong for leaving the union. You have to do what's best for you, and having made that assessment, you did what you had to do. Good luck! For what it's worth, I trust your judgment about what is and isn't okay to do with plumbing. Your opinions on ProPress, as one example, have swayed my opinion as to whether it's an okay thing to use. As long as you're an advocate for your customer, and always do right by them, you'll maintain my respect. Even if you prefer to do it outside of a union.
Well done, good sir. I'd have hired you in a heartbeat if I had the option (I don't live there) for my most recent job. Keep taking care of your customer, and you'll never lose my respect, no matter what your opinions are!
Thanks for the video! Sounds like the problem is Right to Work. The unions have refocused now that we're competing against wage-slave labor, abandoning residential work for some reason in electricity and carpentry too, and good men like you are suffering for it. I wish I knew why we don't nut up and get back into residential work. Maybe the housing market cares more about short term profits than long term quality, who knows.
I've been with the Millwrights union for 3 years. I love it, but I'm thinking of switching to plumbing. I'm not the strongest man. I get the job done, but my shoulders have been popping every day since I was 18. I'm 30 now, and I don't think my body can handle another 10 years of 84-hour weeks. And I'd like to get out of the refineries. Sounds like I'd still do long hours and travelling with the Plumbers, or with union anything, at least in Texas.
When u subbed to him, and ur subscriptions part is full of his vids
Me: but im not a plumber
I am a union inside wireman apprentice. 4th year. As you said the pay and benifits are amazing and the work is good but we are leaving soo much work on the table due to the fact we don’t train for or go after residential work. The only residential training we receive is the basic code requirements to help with passing the state licensing test. Most unions have lost their way and found themselves with big heads thinking that residential is below them but residential makes up a major % of the market and we are missing out on that work.
I've only been a union carpenter for 3 1/2 years but I've never had problems with them. Whenever I needed help it was right there. Ya, u might have to call 2-3 times to get it all settled but that's not hard to do.
Buuuut I did work customer service for 8 years. So I know what these ppl helping r going through. I'm a big believe in being the best customer will get u the best customer service.
After starting out with a decade in the workforce relying on outperforming others for raises, I have been in a union for another decade.... I FAR prefer working without one. In the decade before this position, I worked for 3 separate companies and each of them gave me multiple merit raises for being more productive than my peers. with the most recent 10 years being EXCLUSIVELY tenure based raises, I feel no need to put more work in than the rest of my coworkers because i get absolutely zero for doing so. When doing a better job benefit me, it was my sole focus... now that it is not, all I have to do is not get fired. Unions are an antiquated systems for people who are unwilling to hustle to prove their worth for their employers.
I'm no plumber. I started Driving a Transit bus 5 years ago and joined the Teamsters Union Local 533. After working non union jobs for years I will never go back to a non union job. Last year 2021 we endured three separate labor strikes against our contractor. Both the government entity and the contractor were determined to break the union. Some pencil pushers have it in their head that you could pay a driver who is required to pass a drug test and DOT exam and have the lives of hundreds in your hands pay 12-13 bucks an hour with crappy health insurance. While the union insurance isn't the best it is WAY better than what the contractor offers. I tell you when we were on strike it brought our union brothers and sisters together and you earned way more respect. That kind of friendship cannot be broken. We literally pulled everyone together and help each other get through this difficult time. The ones that crossed I get why they did it but I'll never fully respect them for it. We busted our asses in 100 degree heat and 30 degree cold holding up a pick it sign fighting for a fair contract.
Now the employer side of things. Yes unions can be bad but generally are good however I worked for a company called San Mar for 10 years. We the employees were about to unionize. The owner Marty Lott at the time came to our DC and said I know you want to unionize but I don't want to deal with a union so what is it you want exactly and we will work out a deal. We listed at least 10 important things and got 6 of those things. Few was finding better insurance and higher salary cap. His motto was take care of my customers and I will take care of you, the employees. And he was a man of his word, probably the best boss I ever had. No one will ever be happy and what I said is what I remember. Then the his offspring took the helm and started back pedaling on some policies.
Why haven't I seen this post? My Ole man was Union for 35 years or more. The Union retirement is unmatched and as you know I have state retirement. I started Union and being a kid that grew up embedded in my fathers company I questioned my dad for years with some of these same issues. I dropped Union as quick as I could. But I still have friends that work and have Union company's that love them. It's a preference Both side's has it's ups and down's I guess. It did my father well in the insurance and retirement area for sure. "Just was not for me" You did an amazing job remaining non bias. Roger as always I have the up most respect for you and love watching your content. Keep up the awesome work!
I got failed out of the sheet metal union because of a s hole instructor that didn't like me. Everything you said was spot on, the good the bad the ugly. At the end of the day, I didn't like dealing with the scheming.
@@michaelhartwell4959 true, but I was there for the stainless. Now I own my own cabinet finishing business
never seen a green ridgid pipe wrench before, bin a pipefitter for almost 40Yrs.
Can of paint can do that real quick..everybody knows that is his pipe wrench
Take off the nut , spring assembly, hook jaw heel jaw and pin. Choose your color of paint and the thing becomes yours for life.
Hey Roger, UA 527 based out of Waterloo, Ontario, Canada offers a service plumbing course.
Pros & Cons comparisons, good stuff.