Cannelure Confusion TLDR: “half hearted” cannelures are better at holding bullets in place than “substantial” cannelures, especially when subjected to “stress” such as impacting feed ramps and recoil. If you don’t care about ammo durability, the following does not matter to you. Not all ammo needs to be bulletproof…. Cannelures are pressed into the bullet to some depth(0.002”, 0.010”, ect). Most consist of ribs/fins in the cannelure that you bite into when crimping the case. These ribs have a width measurement per rib. Deeper cannelures with thinner ribs LOOK more substantial. The problem is, deep and thin makes the material that the case is crimping into much less durable(Hornady is a perfect example of this). Think about the radiator fins in your car. In this type of cannelure, when the bullet undergoes stress, such as hitting the feed ramps, the thin deep ribs are deformed easily. With a good crimp, this results in a problem similar to bulk 22LR ammo. The bullet is technically held in place, but you can wiggle it up and down and spin it in the case. Bullets without cannelures do not have this problem. They are either held securely, even if they move under stress, or the grip on the bullet completely fails. The problem is there is a very slight deformation to the bullet when crimping these, though this deformation may, or may not be corrected in it’s journey through the bore, depending on multiple factors. Theoretically, there is a happy medium, that’s where “half hearted” cannelures come in. These use a shallow depth and thick ribs. This allows the case to crimp into the copper, theoretically without deforming the bearing surface, while having ribs strong enough to withstand stress, holding the bullet securely. To test: 1: load 5 to 10 dummy rounds for each bullet of interest, and number them on the brass with a sharpie.(use whatever seating depth you intend to load ammo with) 2: Crimp to different depths with a control. So #1 = no crimp, #2 = 0.002” crimp, ect…(max crimp depth possible is 2X neck thickness, so 0.012” thick brass can be crimped 0.024” when it will be flush with the bearing surface) 3: measure and record CBTO for each(crimping can change this from seating, so measure after crimping) 4: Load in a mag, and cycle them as hard and fast as you can by hand(leather glove is a good idea) 5: measure and record CBTO for each. Give each bullet a little tug and twist with your fingers to see if it is loose(the bulk 22LR problem) and note it. 6: freshen up sharpie numbers if needed 7: repeat steps 4 to 7 till all dummy rounds have failed to retain the bullet. Note how many cycles each test crimp depth took to fail. 8: pull the bullets, and note the deformation to the bullet that you observe for each crimp depth.( No crimp will have no deformation, you can measure the deformation if you want. I don’t like deformation deeper than my lands can cut.) This allows you to see which crimp depths secure which bullets the best and how much deformation is required to secure each cannelure type. Of note, if you have to crimp deep to properly secure a bullet, it drastically increases you chances for a split neck, especially with spicy loads, with or without annealing. You can repeat this test, honing in on “the sweet spot” from your initial test. Ex: initial test (No Crimp to 0.020” crimp) sweet spot found (0.008” to 0.010” crimp) 2nd round, load 5 dummies at 0.008”, 5 at 0.009” and 5 at 0.010”. You can carry this as far as your OCD desires. To see what I’m seeing with crimps, you only need to do the initial test, once with a “no cannelure” bullet and once with a “substantial cannelure” bullet like a Hornady. Obviously, you can test the wide range of cannelure styles in between. For all my testing I used a LEE Factory Crimp Die. Other crimpers may have different results, and I’d be interested to hear about it. I hope this helps someone. If you have any questions, let me know, DBYFO.
Hey Johnny, pleasant surprise to see you uploading and streaming again! The reloading community missed you. Just make sure you're doing the things that YOU want to do. Make it fun for yourself. We're just along for the ride. Would love to see you shoot tony groups with grand dad's 6PPC or see you convert the 25-06 to 220 Swift. Don't spend too much time or effort with editing. Just do what you enjoy. Even if you don't upload videos much, it would be great to see you stream periodically like this. I love getting everyone together to talk about reloading. Really looking forward to 6.5 Grendel content. Your videos shooting 140s helped me develop a load since there's not much book data for 140 grain in Grendel. The problem is I can get 140s for like half the price of 123s. I'd rather shoot what's cheap and plentiful lol. Don't blow your face off. But if you do, put it on a t shirt and sell it.
I can relate, I bounce from one hobby to another. I had ADHD as a kid and need new stimulation until I get bored and move on. But I do keep coming back to guns. I collect model trains, 25 guitars, 25+ guns and more. Guns are great because they get me out of the house (to the ranges) and have meaningful purpose.
I first found you when I got a grendel and started reloading for it. I have a new bolt grendel on the way and am excited to restart the load development with it. Happy to see you back on the webs.
I started watching at least a year before i started reloading (2020) and I started with 300aac and 6.5G -- and you were (unknowingly) my professor and mentor
When I was planning my first AR in 6.5Grr eight years ago I came across your videos and I've been a fan ever since. You really are special and different and entertaining without trying. Your "beginning reloading" videos were excellent but disappeared??
I'm getting ready to load Barnes TSX for hunting in 308. **NOTE** For Barnes TSX, there are 2 Different Ogive Profiles for 30 Cal Bullets. Barnes has information on their website about which one is preferable for different applications. Ryan over at Vortex Nation talks often about the benefits of a Copper Projectile. Funny enough, I was more concerned about ingesting the lead than the bullet performance when I first started shooting and hunting. When I actually started hunting, it seems that lead in the consumption Big Game is not much of a concern anyway.
A Vote for 450 Bush. 458 is so uncommon these days, and it isn't a true straight wall cartridge. I think the only state that gives it preferential treatment is Indiana. The SOCOM also used a Large Pistol Primer, no SAMMI Specs for the cartridge. Great little novelty round, but getting more rare everyday.
If you’d be limited to one gun.. For me it’d would have to be a 308win with our military going to 7.62 NATO I designated marksman rifles. Here on the eastern border of Europe you’d better be safe than sorry.. 😅
Love to see Homestead Contents, but I think RUclips really punishes you for having content that is not the main focus of the channel. Maybe a Johnny's Homestead Channel? Or, is JRB Outdoors still around?
Miss ya buddy , like alot , nothing on RUclips to watch , supper exciting !
I just want to say thank you! You are very enjoyable to watch and have saved me so much time and pain.
Cannelure Confusion
TLDR: “half hearted” cannelures are better at holding bullets in place than “substantial” cannelures, especially when subjected to “stress” such as impacting feed ramps and recoil.
If you don’t care about ammo durability, the following does not matter to you. Not all ammo needs to be bulletproof….
Cannelures are pressed into the bullet to some depth(0.002”, 0.010”, ect). Most consist of ribs/fins in the cannelure that you bite into when crimping the case. These ribs have a width measurement per rib. Deeper cannelures with thinner ribs LOOK more substantial. The problem is, deep and thin makes the material that the case is crimping into much less durable(Hornady is a perfect example of this). Think about the radiator fins in your car. In this type of cannelure, when the bullet undergoes stress, such as hitting the feed ramps, the thin deep ribs are deformed easily. With a good crimp, this results in a problem similar to bulk 22LR ammo. The bullet is technically held in place, but you can wiggle it up and down and spin it in the case.
Bullets without cannelures do not have this problem. They are either held securely, even if they move under stress, or the grip on the bullet completely fails. The problem is there is a very slight deformation to the bullet when crimping these, though this deformation may, or may not be corrected in it’s journey through the bore, depending on multiple factors.
Theoretically, there is a happy medium, that’s where “half hearted” cannelures come in. These use a shallow depth and thick ribs. This allows the case to crimp into the copper, theoretically without deforming the bearing surface, while having ribs strong enough to withstand stress, holding the bullet securely.
To test:
1: load 5 to 10 dummy rounds for each bullet of interest, and number them on the brass with a sharpie.(use whatever seating depth you intend to load ammo with)
2: Crimp to different depths with a control. So #1 = no crimp, #2 = 0.002” crimp, ect…(max crimp depth possible is 2X neck thickness, so 0.012” thick brass can be crimped 0.024” when it will be flush with the bearing surface)
3: measure and record CBTO for each(crimping can change this from seating, so measure after crimping)
4: Load in a mag, and cycle them as hard and fast as you can by hand(leather glove is a good idea)
5: measure and record CBTO for each. Give each bullet a little tug and twist with your fingers to see if it is loose(the bulk 22LR problem) and note it.
6: freshen up sharpie numbers if needed
7: repeat steps 4 to 7 till all dummy rounds have failed to retain the bullet. Note how many cycles each test crimp depth took to fail.
8: pull the bullets, and note the deformation to the bullet that you observe for each crimp depth.( No crimp will have no deformation, you can measure the deformation if you want. I don’t like deformation deeper than my lands can cut.)
This allows you to see which crimp depths secure which bullets the best and how much deformation is required to secure each cannelure type. Of note, if you have to crimp deep to properly secure a bullet, it drastically increases you chances for a split neck, especially with spicy loads, with or without annealing. You can repeat this test, honing in on “the sweet spot” from your initial test. Ex: initial test (No Crimp to 0.020” crimp) sweet spot found (0.008” to 0.010” crimp) 2nd round, load 5 dummies at 0.008”, 5 at 0.009” and 5 at 0.010”. You can carry this as far as your OCD desires. To see what I’m seeing with crimps, you only need to do the initial test, once with a “no cannelure” bullet and once with a “substantial cannelure” bullet like a Hornady. Obviously, you can test the wide range of cannelure styles in between. For all my testing I used a LEE Factory Crimp Die. Other crimpers may have different results, and I’d be interested to hear about it.
I hope this helps someone. If you have any questions, let me know, DBYFO.
Hey Johnny, pleasant surprise to see you uploading and streaming again! The reloading community missed you.
Just make sure you're doing the things that YOU want to do. Make it fun for yourself. We're just along for the ride. Would love to see you shoot tony groups with grand dad's 6PPC or see you convert the 25-06 to 220 Swift. Don't spend too much time or effort with editing. Just do what you enjoy.
Even if you don't upload videos much, it would be great to see you stream periodically like this. I love getting everyone together to talk about reloading.
Really looking forward to 6.5 Grendel content. Your videos shooting 140s helped me develop a load since there's not much book data for 140 grain in Grendel. The problem is I can get 140s for like half the price of 123s. I'd rather shoot what's cheap and plentiful lol.
Don't blow your face off. But if you do, put it on a t shirt and sell it.
I can relate, I bounce from one hobby to another. I had ADHD as a kid and need new stimulation until I get bored and move on. But I do keep coming back to guns. I collect model trains, 25 guitars, 25+ guns and more. Guns are great because they get me out of the house (to the ranges) and have meaningful purpose.
The only way I could get
I first found you when I got a grendel and started reloading for it. I have a new bolt grendel on the way and am excited to restart the load development with it. Happy to see you back on the webs.
Really great to see you back on RUclips
Hey Johnny, don't worry about the trends. I find your contents to be timeless.
The hunting contents were always fun too.
It's really a blessing seeing you back sir! Im plum excited to see the future content! Any thoughts on doing some subsonic loads in different rounds?
Holy moly my boy is back wooop wooooop
I started watching at least a year before i started reloading (2020) and I started with 300aac and 6.5G -- and you were (unknowingly) my professor and mentor
When I was planning my first AR in 6.5Grr eight years ago I came across your videos and I've been a fan ever since. You really are special and different and entertaining without trying. Your "beginning reloading" videos were excellent but disappeared??
Agree, trimming is cruel. Curious about the new hornady trimmer.. reminds me (a tiny little bit) of the henderson trimmer..
I'm getting ready to load Barnes TSX for hunting in 308.
**NOTE**
For Barnes TSX, there are 2 Different Ogive Profiles for 30 Cal Bullets. Barnes has information on their website about which one is preferable for different applications.
Ryan over at Vortex Nation talks often about the benefits of a Copper Projectile.
Funny enough, I was more concerned about ingesting the lead than the bullet performance when I first started shooting and hunting. When I actually started hunting, it seems that lead in the consumption Big Game is not much of a concern anyway.
Keep rockin Johnny
👍👍👍
I would really love to see your content put on rumble. I'm worried the RUclips overlords will remove your videos (even though you only do airsoft).
I would love to see some 6arc videos
A Vote for 450 Bush.
458 is so uncommon these days, and it isn't a true straight wall cartridge.
I think the only state that gives it preferential treatment is Indiana.
The SOCOM also used a Large Pistol Primer, no SAMMI Specs for the cartridge.
Great little novelty round, but getting more rare everyday.
Huzzah!
If you’d be limited to one gun.. For me it’d would have to be a 308win with our military going to 7.62 NATO I designated marksman rifles. Here on the eastern border of Europe you’d better be safe than sorry.. 😅
Love to see Homestead Contents, but I think RUclips really punishes you for having content that is not the main focus of the channel. Maybe a Johnny's Homestead Channel?
Or, is JRB Outdoors still around?
Let’s goooo!
Johnny it's time to do some odd ball subsonic...
I 8sr that .223 load all the t8me for birds and squrrials
Bring the twitch range streams back, i have points to bet
👏👏👏👋👋👋🤝🤝🤝🫡🫡🫡🫡