Dolby Atmos Revolt
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- Опубликовано: 17 окт 2024
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Music always revolts against itself. It’s a good thing. That being said, ATMOS will come and go, just like a quadraphonic system.
It’s been around since 2015
Atmos is here to stay. I love it. I have a HT room and listen all the time. No ear buds. He hadn’t even heard it but can’t hear a difference. Pathetic statement.
We listened to mono for decades too before stereo.
I think it's a power play to give the big studios back in power, a headstart if you will, it's new so in stead of everyone having a hand in creating the technique and set rules of Dolby and Spacial.. IMO
I have it in my home studio and it's amazing.
@@DuceIRae And i think you are riding an already dead horse.
I have heard ATMOS in one of the best rooms on the planet and it was marvelous. I did a tour of Blackbird Studios in Nashville and heard ATMOS in the George Massenburg room. It was glorious but for me, it was more about the incredible acoustics and phenomenal audio system in there than it was the actual ATMOS environment. I have never heard music sound that good but it could have been just stereo and it still would have blown me away.
IMO ATMOS is just like any other new listening format that comes along. If it stays around long enough there will be someone eventually that taps its full creative potential for music. As of now that hasn't really happened yet. Before that can happen it will have to be accepted by the masses. Will that happen? I don't know. If it becomes affordable enough it could.
As for us creative audio nerds, I think the resistance to it is mostly economical. Just about the time anyone can make great sounding recordings at home with affordable gear, they throw something like this at us and take it away from us. It could reinvent the professional commercial recording studio again but before it can do that they are going to have to figure out how to monetize the music industry again. As for me, I don't care. I have no aspirations of making my living from recorded music so I will be happy with my old stone-age stereo format. I'll buy 10 more ridiculously expensive microphones before I ever invest in an ATMOS system.
new format? it's not a new format. it's an extension of 7.1 with ITB AI technology just so you can hold your p p in your hand and climax to your shitty Stooges 144K master recording. kids listening to hardcore EDM fucking share mono signals with a shitty earbud on their phones. this is a huge scam and a joke.
I used to remixed music by adding nature sounds with it and to my knowledge maybe Dolly Atmos probably works but I do think you're right sir. We have to be more realistic to ourselves , sacd music sound better than Dolby Atmos.
Spot on!
I am not convinced the only thing against Atmos is cost. I think we forget the artistic aspect.
In many ways we lost a lot going from mono to stereo. There were choices and expressions that worked great in mono, that has just lost out in the added realism and immersiveness of stereo.
It almost seems like the more inmersive a format is, the more realistic and less f a n t a s t i c stuff is made for it.
When I mix in atmos, I feel much more constricted to some form of recreation of reality. There are much more convention.
The sweetspot is also much smaller than stereo and especially mono. Not only in the physical room, but also in case of what you can do and trust the distrobution will be able to convey to any exactness what we heard in the controlroom.
I do not carry high hopes for the future of atmos in music.
I believe music, as the foremost abstract form of art needs more artistic and fantastic qualities and formats that constrict in to realism and and convention will lose.
Sounded glorious What was the ($cost$) of that GLORIOUS SOUND $250,000.00
Apple may be pushing it to sell their earbuds, but I have a feeling the record labels are behind it with the hope that they will get back their control of the music industry by forcing creators to go to studios to have their songs mixed and/or recorded.
speaker manufacturers are also happy with this Apple move against small producers and studios.
your comment may come off as very tin-foil hat to the uninitiated, but I *DO* believe that there has been a ton of push back from labels AND studios with all this gear we have had access to the last 20 years. I always say there was a real golden age for us in terms of access and ease of use and it was between 2002 and 2012. Then things started to change in a big way. I think all those parties I mentioned were doing a big push against Avid and the other big boys in the game to cool it with what we're all being offered or else we'll find other companies that want to play nice to partner with in these conversations (also tin-foil hat-ish).
Nothing is easy anymore and we really have to fight to stay in the game as well as have a TON of patience. My patience has worn thin with updates and the like, but I keep going. We'll never get 2002-2012 back. I kinda miss it.
That actually makes sense
Maybe to make us buy the same albums and movies we’ve bought 5 times already
I have a 7:1 audio setup and unless you're smack-dab in the middle of the setup it doesn't work and can sound off balance. when listening to music. Basically, I would think Atmos is the same thing. Am I wrong?
EXACTLY
I think I speak for a lot of home recording folks when I say that I can barely afford 2 decent studio monitors, let alone enough for a proper Atmos setup. That’s why I’m personally resistant to making the switch. That’s a very big investment for something with such an uncertain future.
mix on cans...binaural is the way that 99% of the listening public will hear this...no extra money required.
I love this whole Atmos conversation. Once Apple was introduced into this equation, my red flags went right up. There is ZERO push for this from a consumer side and it's only coming from the manufacturers. Absolutely no one was out there clamoring for spatial audio. Take a look at what we already had and how it crapped out VERY hard. I got Pet Sounds in surround just out of curiosity (and, to be fair, I don't love it in stereo either...it's a purely mono experience - ask Brian Wilson) and it was utter trash. I'm a Beatles guy through and through and I don't love these new Giles Martin surround mixes.
And I refuse to believe in the hocus pocus of AirPods being able to put me in a spatial audio space. It just doesn't work for my brain. I want the sound of a room and that experience, not headphones. I'm not installing an Atmos setup at home. I don't know anyone that will. And while we're on this trip, have we seen the numbers in regard to how many people are buying homes in 2023? Or CAN buy a home in 2023? You're not doing an Atmos setup in an apartment and probably not your rented condo.
The economy may very well dictate the direction of this nonsense which is fine to me. Stereo works. It's great. As you said, I can reliably hear stereo mixes where ever I go and we're all good.
One last thing...
It boggles my mind how many classic albums are now being done in an Atmos configuration without the involvement of the original mix engineers or even the bands. For that alone I'm not supporting this mess.
Eff Atmos. I'm not getting involved. I feel that the push is hard because Apple wants the money grab here, but we can push back. We should and need to push back.
I fell for the whole surround sound mixing around 2005. Mixing in surround is a nightmare and opens up a bunch of problems that you never encountered before. I've been in the middle of it with Surround Sound 5.1 on DVD, DVA-Audio, SACD, Blue-Ray, HD DVD, THX, hell I've been into it with the Beta vs VHS war. I won't go into too many details but at the end of the day, Dolby Atmos is just another "standard" that is trying to get its grip on the industry and consumers. Personally I'm not even considering it and I hope it will fail.
Hear, hear!
I´m with you!
I installed dolby atmos in my studio and .. ill tell you what. After you hear real atmos. You will never want to listen to stereo again. It's a amazing experience honestly. And most people saying it will come and go, Do not understand how atmos works. It's really incredible
This is bullshit. I have heard (and mixed on) som unbelieveable atmos setups, and they are incredibly underwhelming and musically meaningless to me.
It really is the Emperora new 3D glasses.
is it easy to mix/master in atmos?
I would love to hear true atmos, and even work with it, I just don't see it catching on in a big way unless they can make it translate on headphones. This isn't a consumer driven push. It's the big companies pushing it on the consumer, I don't think that's a recipe for success.
After recording and mixing for over 40 years I started using ProTools with Dolby Atmos for just over one year. Although it sounded great in the studio, with stereo earphones the difference was subtle. The frustration came with the Dolby renderer integration. I was constantly adjusting the i/o in ProTools. When I played the mixes back on a home stereo with just 5.1 they had not translated correctly. Bottom line is that most people do not have multiple speakers. There are very few contemporary jazz musicians like myself who have released music in surround. I have now gone back to stereo and am using Logic! However it is necessary for TV or cinema.
Barry you are correct about the practicality. In addition, our ears are designed to listen to music in stereo. I actually had a numbskull tell me I need to upgrade to Atmos in my studio to be relevant. He seriously said "you just need to buy 9 monitors". What a joke. Finally, you are right about pushing something new to get new money. You know Barry in terms of quality we are at a pinnacle with 24bit/48, 96, and 192KHz. (which we cannot even hear). That makes companies more desperate than ever for "the next thing". Hell, most people fail at discerning an 8K picture verses 4K or even 4K verses a Blu-ray mastered from a 4K negative. Most of the coming improvements in video/audio will be micro noodling to enhance the experience.
I’ve been building up my master bus chain for years now ever since the pandemic. I’ve even tried dabbling in The brauerizing technique with all analog gear which all waterfalls down into a stereo mix. I think people like me who have been investing in their analog gear and mix bus chains are extremely resistant towards atmos. It’s basically telling us that that workflow, and that way of mixing is now irrelevant in today’s music landscape. But us engineers are so creative and smart. If we spent this same amount of energy pushing back on atmos on creatively pushing forward with the gear and technology we have at our disposal and make atmos work for US then nothing can get in our way! P.S. I’m current mixing my friend’s self recorded, self produced record in stereo, then throwing on my AirPods Max and panning everything in Atmos! Cheers and you rock, Barry!
Listeners have been already not knowingly embraced Atmos, from the movie theaters to Gaming to TV soundbars. The fact that Atmos is scalable to listener device makes Atmos very different from Surround sound, so keep that in mind.
yup....
And that's the whole point of why this is better and won't go down like surround sound
They didn't notice because it's the same as 5.1
People are used to see a movie in theatres with immersive sound, it's more than 20 years old technology.
"Oh, but this new technology is scalable and adaptable"... yeah, nobody cares.
But, it's not scalable though, that's the problem. They say you can have it on your phones and headphones and all this shit but that's not technically Atmos, that's just surround sound being processed at more points. To actually have an Atmos system, you need to spend thousands of dollars and get like 15 speakers or something, put them all around you pointing at one specific listening point, treat the room reflections, and then and only then, do you have Dolby Atmos. Shit even the theater can't support that because it has to sound good for everyone, no matter where they sit. It's not scalable, that's just marketing B's because no matter what, it is physically impossible to listen in Atmos in anything except the multiple speaker surround system
but it is scalable all the way down to 2.0@@minerock16
Even if every Atmos mix was so good that it made me wet my pants, I'm still not investing in a proper Atmos listening system. And I love music and audio more than 99% of people. Simple.
I say the same thing. This was supposed to be HUGE for guys like us and when we don't give a shit, now what?
I hope it fails hard.
Good Rant !! Amen, brother. Valid points.
Amazing words, thanks for your channel! Greetings from Chile
I have atmos at home sounds great so I'm happy.
Don't rush out and buy it but when it comes time to replace your amp consider it.
Great vid as usual Bazzle! Kids listen to crappy music, encoded to mp3 on a phone with a pair of crappy earbuds if not through the phone speaker itself. They will NEVER shell out for even a half decent pair of headphones never mind an atmos studio.
And seriously, let’s not pretend that spacial audio in headphones is anything other than a complete con.
Can't wait to sip on my latte at Starbucks while enjoying their Atmos sound setup. Gotta setup ATMOS speakers on each of my patios.... Outside of movies, this whole thing is friggen dumb and will be enforced to sell more AirPods and EarPods.
This is it: it's cost prohibitive. I'm not buying a ton of extra monitors, new interface, stands, and fine-tune my acoustic treatment, and then clogging up my mix space with said monitors. It's nuts, and will go the way of Quad.
Barry, you the Man! 🫡
The nice thing about Dolby Atmos is that you can have a 360° experience with a proper setup but also a nice stereo or mono experience because of the fold-down process. The requirements for submitting the masters also helps to end the loudness war, and will allow for more dynamics.
Roger from Apogee here - sure, we're selling an Atmos update for our Symphony I/O interface, but we also love the technology in a 7.1.4 speaker setup. You're invited to our Santa Monica headquarters to hear some great Atmos mixes in our studio.
Roger. What’s needed is a push from the manufacturers saying they believe more in the wide spread democratic stereo standard, than letting Dolby insert themselves in everyones money stream and have everyone by the throat. The first manufacturer to up the game further (into DAD/Merging territory) in affordable STEREO converters and market as such will win the whole thing.
No one but speaker manufacturers and Dolby themselves actually want Atmos.
As someone who looked seriously at building a Dolby certified Atmos master room, even to go so far as to have plans drawn up by Gavin Haverstick, I came to the conclusion that when building from the ground-up, the ROI is not there within a 5 year period. It's just not. So I am not building one now.
To the point that Barry is making, as well as several others, the main thing that makes Atmos work is that "the last mile" has been achieved. Having both Apple and Spotify mandating Atmos, and that there are listening devices out there that can translate Atmos into a sound greater than stereo, makes Atmos something that is here to stay. The issue however is that for producers and home-based studios, the money train will pass you by if you are an early adopter.
Barry...you should find a room and listen to it. I think you will enjoy it.
This makes sense and I’m glad you decided not to waste your money. I agree that it’s here to stay, but I also agree that the return on investment is not there. I’ve tried to upsell artists with Atmos mixes and none of my clients care about it. It’s cool technology (to listen to on headphones), but that’s as far as it goes. I compare it to having a 3-D TV in your house.
So true. When you go to a concert. Your not going to hearing a band playing live in dolby atmos. I think your right. Apple is just trying to make more money. 90 percent of customers are not going to have a dolby atmos room to listen to music. Most customers don't even have a stereo system in their home. Andrew scheps stated in a article that mixing in headphones binaural doesn't translate well. You need the full Dolby Atmos setup so I can translate. The most people consume their music on headphones. This is crazy
atmos makes no sense for music, period
I agree with you. What I have decided to do because I’m building a set up at my place to mix Atmos, is first complete mix completely in stereo first and my reasoning for this is because no matter what I will know that I have a full stereo mix that I 100% believe in. Then I will go ahead and make a second mix in Atmos and it would simply be me converting the session over to surround in the space and moving the objects around. I think that’s the best way I saw Colts video and I don’t believe doing the full mix in Atmos first and then folding it down to stereo makes sense because I feel like that’s reinventing the wheel. Let’s be honest when you mix a stereo record and then you have to go to regular 5.1 surround You don’t reinvent the wheel in the mix you take the stereo mix and move the objects where they need to go for the 5.1 surround sound mix why wouldn’t we just do the same thing?
Mono, stereo, quad, surround, spatial, Atmos,it’s an evolution. One of my neighbors when I was a kid had a radio shack quad system in the 70’s and would freak on Alice Cooper, Santana and I believe briefly there was a quad release of Band of Gypsys. In Seattle, KYAC FM in the 70’s use to broadcast in quad. Monday night football was some of the first surround broadcast content. Now, just about every movie streaming service has multiple surround formats. I’ve had some sort of surround rig since the 80’s. A local tv and radio station would do a simulcast of 2001, with the tv broadcast in the front and the radio audio for the rear, fun as hell!! My home tv stuff has always been surround even when it was just two pairs of stereo speakers in opposite ends of the room.
Initially I was hesitant to go Atmos in my home studio but last summer I bit the bullet and reconfigured my home studio as a quasi- “Atmos” mix room. But, just like anything, I will send it out to be mastered properly. I record/track in stereo, actually, mostly mono to catch phase drift, but I like a big spread mix too. Did I spend a gazillion dollars? No, not for doing concept mixes and moving stuff around. My main monitors are Neumann KH120s. But all the atmos speakers are JBL 305P MKII, quite affordable. Do I have a Dolby certified room? Hell no, they would laugh at my configuration. Have I mixed some stuff and sent it off to a real Atmos room to hear it? Yes. Did it translate? Yes! For most stuff, stereo is great and will always be great. But for some new ideas and, as Zappa would say, “Moving the project forward” this is cool stuff. Is it for everything? Most likely not. Did Giles Martin nail the Atmos mix of Revolver? Hell Yeah!! Made me run out and get an Atmos AV receiver for my tv room. If you know someone with an Atmos home theatre, go there and listen to some classical on tidal in Atmos. It will knock your socks off. Plus Dolby just upped the game and you can now record in 24/96, mix in Atmos and render it at the same hi-res. It sounds pretty friggin cool in my goofy opinion. Yeah, I have a 3D tv too and no, that did not become the standard but I have a bunch of 3D movies and watch them often. It’s fun. Isn’t that what we’re supposed to be doing, having fun, sharing fun?
Thanks Barry for pushing the conversation forward.
I haven’t even looked into it for this reason. Love that you pointed out the financial play that this is all leading to. Of course!
Atmos will take over the music industry the same way 3D took over the movie industry. It WON'T
You probably could turn the clock back to the advent of stereo and say all the same stuff. Atmos truly is revolutionary, and the step forward for audio. Just because the technology isn’t as convenient yet doesn’t mean it shouldn’t happen. A full Sonos Atmos home theatre system costs cheaper than most high end Atmos receivers alone these days, so just one good example of the future of consumer Atmos.
Thank you, Barry. Trying to shoehorn the whole of the audio consumption business into a surround environment experience is a preposterous, insane notion. The first few blurbs I heard about this a couple of months ago, I called BS on it then. The whole top-down authoritarian approach was and is highly suspect. Just say no.
As a listener to atmos music in an atmos enabled room i can say im a huge fan. While some titles are not mixed well, others are incredible. I choose to pick songs to listen to which are atmos encoded as a priority.
The fact that you only heard of this a couple of days ago and you are already calking BS on it is ignorant. Its literally been out and in homes for years. Music only atmos started slowly but has still been out for years and continues to grow.
Try listening to well produced atmos music in a 14 or more speaker environment and then get back to us. Its at an entirely different level than traditionally produced music. 7:44 7:44 7:44
@@mikemorrell2001 Sorry but i'm not "ignorant". Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit....you missed the point completely. No one is saying Atmos doesn't sound great, especially if mixed well, in a great setup/space...and of course I've heard of Atmos before 2 months ago...duh . Perhaps you should reread my comment. Think hard now...what happened a couple of months ago?? Hummm?
Listen to yourself prattle on about "14 speaker environments". ....as if... Do you REALLY believe that will completely replace binaural music reproduction? No, no you don't, but you have been sent here to attempt to gaslight the masses about this and berate anyone not falling in line. Funny this stupidity never happened like this in the quad, 5.1, 7.1, THX, ETC days. A product called Nuendo from Steinberg came out 20 years ago to mix multispeaker and post production environments...none of this is new. This whole push is irrational and comments like yours illustrate either your lack of understanding and perspective on the matter or your willingness/directive to just troll naysayers. Which is it?
I have a Dolby Atmos home theater setup (9.4) you really, really need to experience it.I live in Chicago if anyone wants to hear mine.
Here’s my opinion: Atmos benefits from different scenarios. Specifically, if the content has atmosphere. If the song is very reverb heavy, it sounds great if the reverb effects are sent to the ceiling… think something like a pipe organ performance and all the sound that is happening above. From pop perspective, some of the Sgt Pepper tracks sound awesome in Atmos.
Another benefit for Atmos, even for dry content, is the ability to place objects where speakers aren’t, there are times where I hear things that just sound insanely 3d.
It also I think takes some know how or experience. I’ve heard a lot of Atmos music and it really shows if the mixer was invested in the project. Another aspect for Atmos is how the sound sources are captured, there are microphones specifically made for it and the demos I’ve heard of them are stunning.
Bottom line it’s not a gimmick in and of by itself, it’s been around since 2015, it’s just kind of a Wild West situation that might take decades, multiple formats, or loss of interest to either be killed off or become a stepping stone to audio nirvana
Considering the typical music listening situation (smartphones and soundbars) in the 21st century, it is a gimmick. I am pretty sure lack of interest will render Atmos for audio dead on arrival.
@@legalize.brokkoli do most gimmicks last a decade with no signs of slowing down?
@@arasandthevolodkas Is there no difference between Atmos for home theatre and Atrmos for music listening? Is there no difference in the investment needed to buy 2 speakers or 10 speakers plus the amplification setup?
What part of "smartphones and soundbars" is a mystery to you?
Try again.
@@legalize.brokkoli Literally no - the atmos encoding allows for both or any configuration. That doesn't mean that someone with a straight up stereo system will have the same experience, or even experience anything differently from the stereo mix, but the option is there and doesn't do any harm. (regarding power requirements it's not as high as you'd think. Most power is utilized by the front L/R & Center, surround speakers just put out splashes of sound occasionally above 120 hz or so, 3 to 6 watts at most per speaker).
If we are talking adoption rates there is no question most people are listening to two speakers or less. But for people listening at home a lot of soundbars actually do have immersive encoding, bouncy house speakers, while not as good as the setup I got, some are getting pretty damn good (I heard the Nagamachi Dragon is crazy good).
I'm not coming at this discussion from a hostile perspective. I enjoy both stereo and Atmos mixes, I appreciate a great stereo engineer's capability to create an immersive mix. I just really take issue with the notion of the encoding itself to be a gimmick, it's totally not. Most big budget films these days get Atmos mixes, even some of the artsy directors like Eggers or TAR used Atmos.
I beg of you to check out a really good Atmos setup at someone's house, listen to something like Sgt Pepper in Atmos because that mix actually is pretty good. Some are terrible like the Beach Boys which is a shame. Some engineers just phone it in but when they care it sounds great.
Another great mix is Hans Zimmer's Dune or Blade Runner in Atmos.
Just an FYI - I only mix in Stereo currently as well but would like to get into Atmos mixing as well down the road
I agree with a lot of your points Barry, however I think there is so much disinformation about what Dolby Atmos (and other immersive formats) is. Atmos, at its core, is an object based mixing and distribution system. What a lot of people fail to realize is that Atmos is not tied to any specific speaker playback format. Atmos can be stereo! It can even be mono! The true benefit of the format in my opinion is the dynamic range and loudness maximum, two things that will lead to better audio quality many years in the future.
That’s true! But the people making music don’t care about that, nor do the people listening to music. This is really just a corporate science experiment hoping to make money. It’s a great technology and when we first built the atmos room I was working in, it sounded GREAT. But trying to get artists to understand why they should pay for a stereo mix THEN pay for an Atmos mix… I quickly realized that this won’t last long.
People with mono didn't think they were missing anything with stereo. People who loved vinyl didn't think 8-tracks or cassettes would catch on. People with vinyl and cassettes didn't think cds would catch on. People with cds didn't think mp3s would catch on. There's always resistance to new tech. Dolby Atmos isn't something trying to squeeze in; it's already here. Atmos studios have been around for years, not so much for the home user but people mixing for television and movies have been working in it for a long time.
I remember when quad came out in the early '70s. The older brother of a friend on my block back in Brooklyn bought a quad stereo ...Fisher, I think. He only had a couple of quad albums but he let us have a listen one day. How different from stereo I don't really remember anymore, but the listening experience was definitely different. If Apple goes Atmos and drags a good portion of the streaming companies with it, we're going Atmos whether people like it or not. But I suspect the software for converting stereo into Atmos without making it sound much worse will come along and those of us too poor or too set in our ways to make the move will still be able to function in that brave new audio world.
We lost lots going from mono to stereo. Any engineer worth her salt knows that very well.
Some of your other examples makes even less sense;-)
@@hepphepps8356 I'll make sure to stay off your lawn.
There are a of problems with Dolby Atmos right now. First off, Apple is pushing their headphone format, NOT Dolby Atmos. Another problem is that there isn’t enough material in the full Atmos format for purchase, yet. This has been the problem with each new surround format. Apple wants to own the headphone decoder market! This will cause format problems, because there will now need to be three stereo down-mixes to check! Your Atmos mix would need to render down to a good stereo mix, a Dolby Atmos headphone mix, and an Apple headphone mix. The other issue is that most of the great Dolby Atmos mixes that everybody is talking about aren’t available to the consumer yet! Just my thoughts...
This whole dolby atmos fad is gonna go the way of 3D TVs/movies
countdown started a year ago....15 minutes is almost up.
@@J3unG I've been in a well setup environment. It was very cool to have the location separation, but the studio engineer had 14 powered monitors + subs to achieve the effect.
Apple's really pushing it though
@@JoeyFTL hey, so did theaters with 3d. Remember the early 2000s when every major block buster and at least two or three other films in every multi-cinema were all offered in, if not ONLY in 3D? Now you have to search out specific 3D screenings. It didn’t go away, but it didn’t become the standard either. I agree with the original comment in this thread, I don’t think it’s going away, but I don’t think it’s taking over either. Once the fad dies, it’s just gunna be another option you can take advantage of if you have the gear to do so, just like how streaming services offer various playback qualities/sample rates/formats that you can turn on or off in your settings, but standard playback of just a stereo 256 or 320 kbps will always be available and used as the go-to by most consumers
@@zwsh89 you're making a lot of sense here
Seems like it's really rare to actually go somewhere and hear even a stereo format that hasn't collapsed into some misbegotten mono. but I have often marveled at real life multidimensional scenarios like the the sound of being surrounded by a Mariachi band, or in front of a tiered big band, or sitting in the living room playing with family and small amps.
I was able to attend Atmos listening sessions from top mixers at NAMM
It’s sounds great and excellent if/when you can be in that type of setup.
Not really for casual listening while you work, move around or do other things
I couldn't agree more. Great video.
I’ve spent some time in the vintage king atmos room. I was not impressed at all with music. In a way listening to music is worse with atmos. The production becomes more of the focus with all the perspective decisions being made arbitrarily. It takes you out of a subjective personal experience. I think atmos might be awesome for video soundtracks and gaming though. And I also think that music might eventually be awesome also if it develops. At the moment what heard of atmos remixes was kinda like looking at a frog in a pond and then pulling it apart with atmos so you can look at a dissected frog.
"The production becomes more of the focus with all the perspective decisions being made arbitrarily."
Right on. Why did the mixer decide to put that drum-roll in this speaker over here, as opposed to that one? And, more importantly... is this how the artist intended me to hear their music? And, does this piece of information somehow deepen my appreciation for the piece, or on the 15th listen; does the expected and curious drum roll in the specific speaker become so predictable, expected and boring that I start to roll my eyes at it?
But video games, and movies... where a shot is being fired from a certain location, or someone is sneaking up on you, or a car is in the north-west vicinity GREAT
Then we have to answer the question: are we not already getting enough enjoyment from Stereo Imaging done well?
Then we have to factor the extra time required for mixers/mastering engineers to do their job with more speakers, more work, longer turn-around. etc.
Dolby Atmos is here to stay, whether we like it or not. The fact that you can fold down a atmos mix to stereo without it being crush to Hell by a limiter and still retain dynamics is a win. No more loudness wars.
Atmos is here since 2012, so it is obviously not going anywhere. It will most likely not be *the* new audio standard either, despite the ridiculously aggressive marketing
@@legalize.brokkoli Yes of course it's been here since then but it will become the new standard. It's already happening . Apple will no longer playlist Artist unless material is submitted in Dolby Atmos.
@@carlosolivares2745 No, it won't. And it's not "already happening". I know about that Apple thing; though i have no idea what you are trying to prove with that.
@@legalize.brokkoli Nothing to prove. This is based on my opinion , Knowledge, and facts.
@@carlosolivares2745 Apple enforcing Dolby Atmos is a fact, this has nothing to do with any of your knowledge or opinion. I still don't get what you are trying to prove with mentioning the Apple move.
Maybe the whole topic is too complex to you to grasp.
On my AirPod pro I haven’t heard an Atmos mix that sounds better than a stereo one. They all sound phasey to me. I’d be open to suggestions from anyone who’s found any better? I have no doubt listening to an Atmos mix on a properly setup speaker system would be great though
Interesting take but I have to say, having been recording on 4-track cassette, reel to reel, ADAT recorders, HD recorders and finally computers, my experience is that audio engineers are highly conservative when it comes to technology. I'm therefore actually pretty amazed at how quickly a large part of the community is adopting Atmos! I'm not saying it's unproblematic, e.g. I find the binaural mixdown quite lacking at times and that is how it will be experienced by a vast majority but the more I listen and talk to others about it, it's clear that we're in a pretty steep learning curve on How To Mix and that is key here, I think. We're in the "put the drums and vocals in the left speaker and guitar and bass on the right" era and I love being part of that but I can totally see how that uncertainty (and bad mixes) can be off-putting. A lot of time and effort is going into understanding the technology but when that is out of the way and you start exploring the actual creative possibilities, I find it extremely engaging and fun! I also find that Atmos had been described as something unattainable with the room tuning and being approved by Dolby and buying super expensive speakers all around. That's BS in my opinion and has done everyone a great disservice, look at how much great music is being created in stereo by people who don't have a pro grade monitoring environment. Atmos on speakers is totally doable without breaking the bank, see my channel for a real world example. Now go and at least have a listen in a room, if you're apprehensive about the format. ✌️#AtmosGuerillaMixing
Barry, I see it is one thing for all the recording studios having to buy all these speakers but what about the home user? You think they have the space and power outlets to hook up all these speakers? What about the second you leave the space or move a little out of the sweet spot of all those speakers? I cannot see this being adapted to the masses. The only space I can see it is with earphones or earbuds... etc...
Or do they even have the money for this, the average person? No
From a production standpoint we can already do all the cool spinning effects and realistic sense of positioning with relatively simple effects chains, know how and experimentation, while STILL being able to deliver a stereo mix, (and the immersive effects show up even better for the average listener of today that uses airpods etc). The workflow and limitations of atmos is such a hassle and not worth it if the only benefit is that it can be properly played on multi speaker setups by people that have that kinda money
Its a commercial operation by dolby to sell licensing for decoders and apple for selling phones. As per my comments on your earlier video, setting up for it is not as expensive as you suggest if you go via the receiver option and a hdmi cable. In fact, I would argue that is the best approach because of the advantages it provides in terms of bass management and channel calibration and it also reflects the way high end consumers will hear it (through home cinemas). Ive done atmos mixing this way and it works fine, though like you, I'm generally skeptical of its benefit for the average consumer.
Counterpoint: no one knew they wanted stereo until they heard it either in. They were perfectly fine with mono. The "who is asking for spatial audio" question assumes that stereo emerged organically. But it didn't. It too was an industry push as as a way to make more money. In 1965 it was a way to get people to buy more records, many of which mighht have been repurchases from mono. Today it is a way to get more people to subscribe to streaming services..
The reason previous surround formats have failed is they required huge investments on the part of the consumer: Buy all your music again in a new format, buy new amps, new record/disc players, more speakers. Spatial audio is different. It comes free of up-charge from the same streaming services you are already using, it works with the headphones you already have and it works with the soundbar/surround setups you already bought for home movie watching.
The whole point of atmos is to have a widely compatible system that can fold down or up based on the audio system that you are listening to. From mono to stereo, 5.1 all the way up to 64 speaker arrays. Once the software is implemented fully, it will give creators and consumers the option to expand the possibilities. But stereo isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Pro level engineers will slowly adapt and there will be AI services available before you know it.
My biggest gripe with ATMOS mainly is the availability of budget HTIB systems that are full 5.1.4. Would it have been that difficult to pack in the extra 4 channels of amplification? Why no combo 4k UHD bluray players/atmos receivers?
WHY NO ATMOS BASED CONSUMER PC AUDIO CARDS?
WHY CANT I BUY AN ATMOS Preamp/Processor for less than 1K?
despite the money-grab and the recording industry raising the bar to push out the little guy... as far as the consumer is concerned Atmos should be a largely invisible transition. the idea is that it's backwards compatible, so when you're in a stereo situation you're presented the stereo mix -- you don't need special atmos compatible devices for that. but then you'll sit in a car with an atmos set-up and you're presented with the mix that is supported with that set-up. whether it's better or not, we'll see, but the consumer doesn't really have to make the decisions for the transition to happen.
I'm with ya!
This is 100% marketing for $$
Think of the money that this will generate in equipment sales , just to get in the game.
Everybody up and down the chain needs more gear to create and to consume music.
I think it's somewhat a kin to 3D or holograms.....great stuff but not for the masses!
You da Man Barry 👨🏼
@1:15 i had enough. Thanks Barry. (I might come back to it later though 😅)
One of the points of Atmos is that it can upscale or downscale itself, so you can enjoy a version of Atmos on a SONY soundbar. You don't need a full 7.1.4 (or better) system to get some benefit. If you think people will continue to buy sound bars in the future, then Atmos is for real.
Hey Barry, you touch a bit on that but I think the another reason for the Atmos push and that is that Atmos makes it more difficult for small studios and semi-pros to deliver top tier mixes, making it easy for big names to get more customers
Are Atmos soundbars worth it for movies?
Well said Barry!!!!
Cinema and gaming. Gaming your mixing for headphones.
I agree with Barry and the other comments. The only thing I can add is that I do not know a single person who has or wants to listen in ATMOS, nor do they know it exists. Ask any consumer, do they know what a SACD is. If no one is purchasing SACD's why would ATMOS even be a necessity. Sorry, not going to purchase John Coltrane A love Supreme just to sit in one room (in the perfect spot) to listen.
I think this is a reasonable analogy: going from mono to stereo or from cassette to CD was like going from horse and buggy to an automobile - everyone "needed" it. Going from stereo to Atmos is like going from a Hyundai Santa Fe to a Porsche - ya, it's cool and everything, but not required and not worth the massive investment for 99% of people.
Think you nailed it !!!
I've heard of some artists who have Atmos mixes done, who insist on it being nothing more than enhanced stereo. The bulk of the mix comes from the front, with panning off to the sides as normal and the Atmos is just used for throwing effects and ear candy around.
Actual atmos (15 speakers or whatnot) is not relevant if it sounds good or not, where the rubber meets the road is how it gonna sound fold down into STEREO, and there it doesn't sound like anything special for me either. Also what is better than an algo folding down to stereo? Just to do a stereo mix from the start
Like you my only experience with Atmos is like 90% or the music listeners in the World today, with headphones.
When Atmos will be convicing with headphones, which is not the case yet, it will succeed. Maybe.
I think for us, music makers (composers, mixers, etc...) , it's urgent to wait.
I was hoping it would be a format the loudness war was excluded due to the requirements of the format. Regular dolby uses dialnorm to regulate loudness. In Broadcast we mix to EBU-R128 loudness standard, it has ended the loudness war for television commercials.
Anything with regulated loudness is better than the stereo we have now for music. Dolby Atmos may allow this reality.
With EBU-R128 as soon as you compress your mix to sound louder the meter reads higher and you need to drop the level to compensate nullifying the effect of the maximiser.
Totally agreed!!!
And of course you can only listen to it by using a streaming service.
What sold me on surround for music was that queen movie that came out. Hearing the crowd around made me feel like I was actually listening to it live. As for studio music, I would love to hear vocal effects and post production swirling around or coming behind you like a creepy whisper.
For most consumers the Atmos experience will be limited to the binaural renders on headphones. A tuned multi-speaker Atmos room is the next business opportunity for studios to stay ahead of smaller studios. For Atmos music I prefer the most realistic presentation of a live performance. Unnatural movement or positioning could be fine for some genres.
Talking my partner into getting a proper stereo, over a soundbar was bad enough. If I’d asked for surround speakers with in-ceilings and a sub. I think id have to move out.
I agree what you say. It wasn’t all that when I heard several Top set-ups at NAMM recently.
Atmos in movies was underwhelming until a) i added two more height speakers to make four and b) tv streaming services massively increased atmos content
For music it's a gimmick and i love my stereo set Up with lyngdorf 1120 and monitor audio silver 500
Honestly, I’m very into Dolby Atmos but not happy that anyone be forced to use something.
The rest of the world loves to be forced to use something. Too bad they don't know how to use their own brains...
The way the vocal sound is crazy on apple air pod max
EQ curve built into the airpod max. neat trick.
@@J3unG no it’s no eq it’s like u can hear the compression on vocals just sitting in the middle
@@J3unG once this atmos thing came out i was like let me listen 🎧 real quick if you got a fick up vocal mix u going to hear it mess up on atmos
“Practicality”. The key word. But I’m keeping an open mind
When you go listen to a Band play live, they are in front of you on a stage.
You don’t have the piano player hanging down from the ceiling behind you on the right,
or the guitar player hovering above and behind you on the left, while the singer is in center front below !!
Where will you put the drums or the The Sax Player or The Bass Player ?
I imagine that Dolby Atmos might be better suited for Film Music or Surreal Spaced Out Ethereal Music.
Give us back the earphone jack!!!
Not just that you have to have more monitors. You have to be a registered Atmos studio to submit an Atmos mix.
Thanks, Barry! Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is. I'm getting set up to do atmos in 2024 but I'm still releasing music in stereo. We just had a song come out few weeks ago and there's another one coming soon... Both in stereo. I'm not feeling any pressure. Use Atmos or don't. Who cares?
I still use Mini Disc...😂
im not saying this to be salty but if you cant hear the difference between spatial audio and normal stereo on airpods then u definitely are ill equiped to give advice on this and maybe more broadly audio at all.
Please
🥱
It’s hype! If it was that good I think we wouldn’t be questioning it much. Firstly it’s only good from what I can in the right environment.
Secondly the collapsed stereo version do not sound good too me, phase issues which always plagued this stuff.
It’s been done and failed before, Dolby surround had an emulation on systems which was gimmicky.
Let’s face it if the general punters are not excited and confused it’s not going to sell specially if all speakers don’t support it out the box.
The sound we have now in stereo works well and the way we mix gave rise to some very stylistic sounds. Atmos is trying to answer a problem that doesn’t exist. For movies and a specific setting it’s great. For music listening you are bang on the mark.
I’ve not heard the true setup but I have the AirPods Pro and turn of Atmos because I don’t like it with all the phase trickery.
In Logic use the Atmos mixer and put a kick drum in the space and listen to the reverb it adds - what’s that all about? Sure it’s mapping out the space but the way we mix today is not like this.
We like how stuff sounds in stereo for music I think that’s a tough thing to change.
I agree with everything you said. It’s fine for movies but it’s not how we experience music and I don’t know how that will be able to change. There’s nothing practical about it. It’s added expense and we will have to learn it. I won’t be going Dolby Atmos until I absolutely have to. And then it will be kicking and screaming. What’s wrong with Left, Right and center?
WAIT till you see The Creature From the Black Lagoon! You’ll never want to watch any movie that’s not in 3D ever again.
Yeah man atmos in an environment even half decent is quite amazing when the mixer knows what to do with the extra channels. Music is about emotion and Dolby atmos let’s you experience more of that emotion in a hyper realistic sense. I think it’s here to stay for music, but the transition won’t be easy
After hearing spacial audio mixes (is that the same as Atmos??) on my AirPods, I can agree.. to a point, and on certain releases. Music can also feel powerful and punchy with mixes that have some "glue", so in that sense I sometimes strongly prefer MONO for recordings that were originally released in that manner.
Apple is trying to push it artificially, it's not driven by consumers
the setup required is not realistic and the ear-pods sound thin, wide and weak
Barry! I have a well formed opinion! I finished an audio training program about a year ago and we talked a lot about atmos Vs surround vs stereo vs binaural “spacial” sound a lot, and I was then lucky enough to score an internship at Dolby HQ testing some of their atmos algorithms! I live in the SF area, so durring the pandemic lockdown, it was remote using headphones, but after lockdown ended, I was lucky enough to actually get to do my demos in their labs with the full 11-15 speaker setup (depending on the day and specific demo). All this to say, while I don’t have my own almost setup at home, I have a lot more experience interacting with it than most. On the one hand, they had me hooked up to an EKG while I listened to various tracks mixed for atmos, so someone is actually collecting and using data about how test subjects brains were physically responding to the audio. So I can verify that atmos is likely not BS. That said, the difference between atmos and surround did not scream “worth the investment in space and 7 extra speakers,” it was cool, but only marginally so. I will say, it was cool to have mixes where you have three instruments panned left, but each instrument gets a dedicated speaker. So maybe an acoustic guitar out of the direct left speaker (9 o’clock position), a keyboard out of the speaker at 10 o’clock, hi hat on the 8 o’clock speaker, a backing vocal at 11 o’clock, and the lead vocal out of the true center 12 o’clock speaker, as opposed to being split L and R to make a phantom center. The clarity on mixes presented that way was unrivaled, likely because each dedicated speaker only has one job, so the cones aren’t trying to represent multiple sound sources at once. I imagine there’s a huge reduction in cancelled out standing waves that cause your speakers to just stay still, so each sound is represented as accurately as is technologically possible. To me, that was a bigger advantage than the sense of space, which did feel more like a fad than a true technological advancement. That’s my two cents on the audio experience. I think we can learn a lot about the relationship between audio and the speakers replicating that audio from atmos that we can bring back to stereo and surround mixing, but at its core, I think it’s going to be a flash in the pan. It’s just too confusing and incompatible with current consumer gear. People barely understand Spotify, and how many consumers currently take advantage of higher streaming sample rates? Regular people don’t care, and atmos is asking them to expand on knowledge they don’t already have or consider relevant. Atmos exists for us engineers to gossip about, it’s not really for consumers in my opinion, at least not as it’s currently set up and offered
It’s too late to revolt. The major studios are already cranking out Atmos mixes or farming it out They are even going back to top-40 and re-mixing older hits. Really feels like a new gatekeeping tactic more than anything else.
My budget sucks, my room sucks
I’ve been an audio engineer for 40 years, and I feel like Atmos mixes sound amazing even in non-Atmos listening situations
People said the same thing about cell phones technology … and who in this comment section does not have one…..I’ll wait? STOP IT already ATMOS is amazing technology! Please stop crying about having to spend more money in order to jump into a 7.1.4 Atmos monitor system. Do you remember or know how much a 24 trk 2” tape machine once cost what about a 32 input console or if you don’t go that far back Pro Tools was expensive AF when it came out back then when it was the new technology on the block… Yeah and once again people complained and said it would never compete with analog! Lets not forget how much outboard gear cost and still does… But we can’t say the same for those analog tape machines and or consoles anymore there value is worthless nowadays and by the way I have both of those dinosaurs sitting in my garage taken up space… lol I’ve heard the same about plugins how they could never be like the real thing but yet we all buy plugins and we all love em! Anyhow, let’s remain open and understand that this is a great and promising benefit that we all can grow from so let’s us not be so doubtful of this technology… Especially if youve never worked in ut ir on it... True Atmos is really that good! So embrace it and stop #hating Try it because you just might like it! Folks in this comment section are really showing their age! 😢
Full atmos mix done with plugins doesn't sound as good as an analog Stereo mix. I've done both to compare.
I would love to hear your opinion on other 3D Audio-Techniques like Ambisonics or Mach 1 Spatial Audio, wnich are open and far more accessible for everyone.
Great video, Barry! Personally, I love Spatial Audio/Dolby ATMOS (it is pretty much the same thing, really), especially when listening through my Apple AirPods Pro (I think AirPods Max would probably be the ultimate headphone listening if people can afford them) with Head Tracking turned on. If I could recommend any songs as a great experience, listen to Elton John's "Can You Feel The Love Tonight" and "Circle Of Life" on his Diamonds (Deluxe) album. In good ol' Stereo, you don't hear the choir clear enough, but with Spatial Audio turned On, you feel like Elton and his band are in the front field, but the choir is behind you. If you turn your head left, Elton sings through your right earphone and the choir is in your left earphone (the opposite will happen when you turn the other way). It sounds so clear. While I could hear a choir on "Can You Feel The Love Tonight" in stereo (and I mean "just", it's still fairly drowned out), I never realised there was a choir on "Circle Of Life" (apart from the last part, even then, I thought they were just usual backing vocals) until I heard it in Spatial Audio/Dolby ATMOS. That sends tingles down my spine every time I hear it. I don't think I'll ever listen to those two songs in Stereo again.
As I'm deafblind, I can't enjoy Surround Sound music in dedicated setups where speakers are spaced out around you, so Apple's earphones are, to me, the best way of experiencing it. In regards to your comment about being at the beach, if you turn Head Tracking on for Spatial Audio, the music will move around you as you walk along or turn. If you don't like it, you could just turn Spatial Audio off. I'm someone who loves to make music too, but I'll obviously need to get help when I get to mixing/mastering. I'm not doing music in Spatial Audio yet, but when I do, I'm sure I'll be mixing in headphones too. I think full-room set-ups would be to expensive for me, and this is probably how a lot of people starting out making music would do it. As I age and my hearing gets worse, I'll probably prefer music mixed in Mono (not how devices probably just take one speaker channel and play it through both earphones, you'll be missing out on important music then. At least if a song/album is mixed in Mono, the producer just leaves out what could muddy the sound. Sorry about a long comment.
Atmos will soon be called Almost
Truth!
I'm with ya on this Barry, stereo is FINE! Is it a push to shut down rhe home studio for the benefit of the major studios? Hmmm.
I can’t wait for my snare to sound like trash in Atmos. 😅
I can hear the difference of atmos on just a stereo set of monitors or headphones. Its pretty noticeable. Listen to morgan wallens new album. I think its like being able to pan in 3d so its just creating more space in the mix….thats what i notice.
Money drives everything like it or not. I can only speak for home theatre although being a pro Muso’s for 44 years my experience with Atmos in the studio is next to none. With home theatre Atmos can be underwhelming at times. Depends on the mix and how much love they put into what they do when creating these films.Also depends on processing quality, speaker placement and your listening environment. I have a dedicated room which is a separate building to my house which is sound controlled and have a full on theatre setup being 7.1.4. That being said, there are times when watching a movie in Atmos and wondering what the hype is about. I have recently been experimenting with my speakers to see what exactly is coming form my overhead ceiling speakers Top front and Top rear total of 4 overheads while playing back an. action movie and most of the time I get nothing. Other times there is content Also we need to be careful as ambient noise can be mistaken for effects. I think Atmos is a little bit young still even though it’s bee out for a number of years. But I agree it’s a money making scheme in ways of headphones and all the little things. Extra speakers and whatever else. These companies will milk it for all its worth. I def don’t dislike Atmos or the like but at the same time I don’t believe what everyone is saying all the time. I let my ears do the listening first.