Forged will deform in the event of failure, cast items tend to break which causes catastrophic failure, the only down side to forged material is its expansion rate under heat so you need to properly warm up an item with a forged piston
Some decent info but a great deal of misinformation. They are comparing their own cast piston to their own forged piston, not an OEM cast piston. Avoiding a question about thermal expansion and heat dissipation which is the common downside to forged pistons aside from cost. Both are great options but they are dependent on usage, machine-ability of the block/piston to get your clearances, RPM, and torque. It's not as simple as get the stronger one. Would have appreciated a technical person answering the questions rather than a marketing person repeating what's in the brochure/marketing packet :-/
Initial DIY mods I agree. This dude's slick as hell. Gave a 2 minute speech about keeping the engine clean, then said almost nothing, then admitted he didn't know about which will last longer.
They also didn't mention the cast pistons can be run much tighter to the bore because they're high in silicone content. I think forged have their place in very high rpm or boosted situations, because they're more forgiving, but they need to have higher piston to cylinder clearances. I prefer a cast hyperutectic piston personally for stock or warmed over engines.
Just so you know, the reason he didn’t speak about heat or longevity is because forged pistons expand more under heat than cast pistons, and so they are manufactured with more clearance when they are cold. This leads to ‘piston slap’ which causes additional wear on your block. Bear in mind that he is trying to sell these pistons. Forged pistons should ideally only be used in racing or really high horsepower applications, they will cause your engine to need either a new block or resleeved sooner than using a cast piston.
The piston doesn't or should not touch the cylinder at all. If they do you have problems with clearance. The rings keep the piston away from the cylinder.
@@goodboyringo9716 sure the piston doesn't actually contact the cylinder wall, but it does cause inconsistencies and rattling with the piston ring, thus "slapping" the cylinder wall. If someone punched you through a pillow, you would still be upset that they punched you. No need to nitpick
@@Cultofpersonality09129 whatever you say man, nevermind pistons with anti-slap coatings being kind of a hot commodity, and why you can audibly hear the difference between cast pistons and forged pistons on a cold start
@@propertarian485 ...Sorry but no rattling or slapping in my engine . Its important to measure the piston, bore & hone cylinder to fit. Right, don't nitpick just use the best .
forging aluminum turns it into a wrought aluminum; wrought aluminum alloys can be 'stronger' (wtvr stronger means) but will make the alloy conduct heat much better and b/c the crystalin structure is more symetricall aligned, thermal expansion is also greatly increased with temp rise. There is zero reason to have forged pistons in anything but a track only car. Onto the interviewee, anyone who evades answering the question asked is either a salesman, politician or attorney.
@SirSamterness BUT there's more. This is a very hard decision to make if you're trying to decide between forged or cast. There's also the theory that a forged piston when cold, since it does need to be smaller, can be too lose and damage your bore until it heats up. Also because of they're nature, you really really have to warm it up properly with forged, cast is less likely to cold seize if not warmed up properly. Alot of people also say it's not true that they're less likely to shatter, some say that the advancements in cast has closed the window. Hard to tell what's true
@@adriccochran4826 Heat soak in the piston can be somewhat reduced with ceramic coatings on the top of the piston which in turn reduces thermal expansion to compensate.
Forged pistons are typically better for high performance applications like racing. They are much stronger than cast and handle heat better. However, they expand and are much more expensive to make.
Because its hard to answer. If it was steel vs aluminum, aluminum will dissipate heat waaay faster, but cast aluminum vs forged aluminum, I'm not sure.
Notice he didnt talk about expansion. Guys that run fordged know that if they dont give enough warmup time the expansion of the fordged piston is way slower so they dont honk on a cold engine or the fordged guy will blow it up.
Adolf Shitler you should still let it idle for about 1-5 min depending on your environment (cold or hot) but don’t drive hard until you see your temp gauge at near or at full operating temp
For the average Joe cast pistons are usually meet most applications, unless of course the application is calling for boosted or turbocharging where high temps are involved.
Worst mistakes I ever made on my sled was running forged pistons. After religiously watching my operating temps they still cold sieze. Learned the hard way.
I am not a race car mechanic but I am a diesel mechanic for 12 years. Most engine failures ive rebuilt is a result of heat. The pistons melt once lubrication or cooling becomes insufficient and at this point your its already to late to save the engine. If you don't shut it down it will usually ends in catastrophic failure like throwing a rod or piston through the engine block. Point is heat and lubrication is really more important then actual strength or grain direction of the components. If you don't have proper function of heat dissipation or lubrication good luck. Only exception is incorrect timing and having valve interference but valves usually break before a piston.
the most important difference is rate of expansion,forged piston expand more so they need more piston to cyl wall clearance ,translate to piston slap when engine cold,so it is not good for daily drive cars,AND HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT!!
I wish i was better informed between Forged vs Cast when i spent $120 on a wiseco piston. Piston skirts were already scuffed during first break in....sticking with OEM
They say piston velocity is the killer of cast pistons. 3500 feet per minute or 5500 rpm in your 427 big block Chevy, which has a crank stroke of 3.76”
Forged pistons expand more during heat absorption so the gap between the cylinder wall has to be greater to compensate... So your cold starts will see piston slap until it warms up which is damaging the engine bore.
Nothing wrong with cast. Tighter tolerance weight ends up being like half gram difference. Don't expand and whipe out cylinder bores. If v8 chevys are holding 700hp on cast pistons w boost u can't tell me ur 50hp bike needs forged
Forged lasts WAY longer in bikes. My 250cc dirtbike makes 50hp at the wheel. Thats like a Chevy 5.3 (5300cc engine) making 1060hp at the wheels.. And guess what? Thats about the power level that breaks chevy 5.3 pistons in one dyno pull
Its obvious why a forged piston is stronger but I would have really liked to have seen apples to apples with the pistons they had displayed...they had two TOTALY different bore sizes between the two they comparred...huh
That was just a rib inside piston not the actual skirt thickness. Wiseco's have a crappy high expansion rate, running 0.005" or more,bore clearance plus, they are usually heavy enough to need better rods and big end bearings. Get some Mahle, lighter, similar strength and lower expansion so you run almost 'normal' clearances
Peter, in my experience with many many 2 stroke and 4 stroke bike engines i've built, they run very little clearance. Yeah, maybe .001" more than a hypereutectic, but who compares anything forged to a cast piston of any alloy. isn't somewhere around .001" per inch bore pretty common for clearances? Wisco's 2 stroke forged pistons were generally a few grams lighter than the cast pistons, at least on the 50cc thru 250 cc engines i am most experienced with.
WelLRoundeDSquarE Wiseco have improved a tremendous amount since I first encountered them in the 1970's. Biggest improvement was when they got some CNC machines so pistons became consistent in size and weight. They may be even better today, but, as with a lot of things; 'once bitten twice shy' (I haven't even seen one for about 7 yrs, that was for1200cc HD Sportster, use 0.005"~0.0055" clearance for 'racing')
I know the difference since I was 15y lod and that was 22y ago....when I was 1st grade secondary school for Mechanical tehnician....now I am an engineer.but for casting metods now you can inject the material into the mould from the bottom and in that way the gravity does its part and it makes a product more stiffer than moulding it in traditional way
Wiseco needs to R&D some 4032s for Speed3s/FoSTs/FoRSes/FiSTs. Mahle did an amazing job doing so. Not everyone wants to run 2618s. Sure, they're strong, but they have much shorter service life and 4032s are much better for a performance daily driver. And this "Rep" is a crackpot if he thinks there's no real difference in service life between hypereutectic and forged pistons o.0
Awesome Video, I will always use Wiseco products, I have there Pro X piston in my yz125 and even the way I ride, have fantastic luck with Wiseco and Pro X and will always use Wiseco products and Wiseco also has one of THEEE best gaskets sets on the market
I suppose the circumstances could favor either method. I've torn down many lawn mower engines going to recycling and found most of those pistons are forged. I recall back some decades that during high speed constant stress applications like at Bonneville that more failures were showing up with forged parts, mostly holing them. It must be that there is something about forged that once it gets a soft spot, it goes to liquid very quickly.
Molecular? We are far from molecular level. Crystalline. Metal crystallizes as it transitions from liquid to solid. Forging breaks the crystals into much smaller fragments and in general causes the material to be tougher.
most basic explanation ever totally one sided for forgings he glanced by any drawbacks of a forged piece or the good things about a casting even made the price seem close
I think this must be day 2 at the convention they are at because this guy looks like he was trying to come down from some magical trip after just being woken up from the hotels' bathtub and told he must answer some questions. Up until he gets into it lol
The coating looked the same on both pistons ... Wouldn't the engraving do damages to the bore walls ? Or would tey fill up with coating after run time and cause burn/ scuff of the area where the sediment fills in the engraving ? Wouldn't this cause a lag in motion of piston ? Slowing down the rod travel as the crank tries to spin fast and burn up a roller bearing ? Premature firing / fowling plugs ? Curiosity killed the 🐱 (97 arctic cat thunder chicken 900 triple) ... Had wiseco pistons ... Exactly where the logo was is where it was worse in the jug and on the piston ... Would love to know more about this inevitable pre existing issue as it did same thing on my 94 ... Same place - nearly the exact same pattern ... Ironically !
I don't like hearing a piston manufacturer say "we got in there and hogged it out". Now saying "we CAD tested stress and structure tolerances to come up with an optimum balance for weight and strength" and that'll get me on board.
*THE PERSON EXPLAINING AVOIDS THE HEAT ABSORPTION QUESTION AND THAT USE OF FORGED PISTONS REDUCES LONGEVITY. Forged pistons EXPAND greatly due to heat while cast tends to resist expansion. You may ask who really cares??? Well with forged, you have to compensate for heat expansion by increasing the end-ring gap of rings. This means that when cold the piston is very sloppy in the cylinder and will induce wear on the cylinder wall. An engine with forged for daily use must at least be idled to fully come up temperature first. You should therefore never start and run a forged engine without being "up to temperature"; otherwise, the engine life will greatly shorten. Cast is much better since it coefficient of expansion is much less making it much better for street use. While adding silicon to forged piston material can help to reduce expansion and adding heat coatings hide the expansion problem, cast is still a much better choice for daily use including use with turbos or superchargers. So if you drive your car daily and but go to the track only periodically, cast is better and you will be able to go 100K or more with boost. I for one do not take my car to the drag strip.*
It makes me sad that a piston manufacturer doesn't know that forged aluminium has a much higher thermal expansion rate, which means that forged pistons expand more when warmed up to running engine temperature. This means you need bigger tolerance (between piston and cylinder) when you start the engine and by the time it is fully warmed up, which means more wear for the piston itself and you burn oil!!! Forged pistons are not for everyday use!
Well if you're going to race forged pistons will work but on start up it'll wear like hell , where cast is better at starting your bike cold and won't wear your engine as much and it's better for the average rider , so it makes no sense to use forged pistons because you will endup spending money on barrels if you don't race it
I just bought a Namura forged piston for a ' Zook LT 230 S quad, wow it seems heavy, I hope it doesn't overpower some other weak spot on the engine, I'm already expecting the clutch to need replacing.
* got in 100 hrs + on that piston, from hot days to cold safaris, it got rattle - y , I lost my oil filler cap one day, got the engine really hot before I knew what happened, so I think the crank & rod took too much heat to put a new piston onto , I think that would be bad move , so I'm looking at finding another engine or rebuild this one, I'd like to dodge that chore . A few pics on internet of people dropping in Honda 200 /250 trike engines , maybe look into that Frankenstein project
I use wisco pro lite piston in all my two strokes dirt bike a work very well and will stay with wisco pro lite piston two rings they have worked well in my yz 85 and 125 and my Suzuki 250 wisco is one fine product in my book and that's what I choose too run in my 2 strokes dirt bikes I have I only put the pro lite piston kit with gaskets complete top end kit michaelholden1 out of north Carolina said that
What about life of the part? Well how clean you keep it, how you drive it...blah blah... how clean you keep your filters... blah blah... and I don't know if there is a real benefit one vs the other with cast vs forged pistons" in regards to longevity. Well thanks for that bit of truth at the end of your rambling answer. I would like to hear an actual unbiased answer here as to whether or not forged pistons are worth the extra cost, especially under typical conditions where a small difference would not justify the expense.
Why aluminum? Titanium is way stronger and the weights are pretty close. I assume the weight to strength ratio would go in favor of titanium same with heat tolerance but wouldn't that make for more shaving of the weight for the same application for even more hp, responsiveness, higher rpm...
Wiseco is great, if Mitch Payton uses them to their own spec they are good. People who talks down on pistons companies needs to bring context, to many variabels to talk down certain pistons.
i have been told not to run wisecos in my polaris IQR and only run the polaris oem pistons because the wisecos are known for failing and basically destroying the whole motor
the way i see it, would i rather a piston absolutely destroy my engine or would I rather just have one piston be totally destroyed in the event of failure?
Everyone in the comments section talking about how forged pistons expand more then cast yet they failed to notice the ceramic coatings on the top of the pistons which reduces heat soak into the piston and therefore expansion. In saying that though the forged piston he showed had no coating on the top which is a bit of a head scratcher to me?
Wiseco ECT want to sell u forged. There's a reason 2 strokes come from factory cast. There's a reason they are used in crazy 125 street smokers that make 55 horse
You can tell he didn't want to say which one is better for longer time which Cast is better for Daily street hard driven cars compared to Forged that actually do end up Expanding over time. Forged is good for A Non Daily Car made more for track amd cast for daily driven cars.
How can I get in touch with you about ordering a stock piston and rings 2 rings on the 2006 ya 85 what's the best type too use please send me some information on ordering a complete rebuild top and kit complete with gaskets and everything needed to rebuild topend on 2006 yz85 with stock bore would like to have doomed style piston makes more compression thanks again Michael Holden out of north Carolina said that thank you on such a great video
the crosshatching given after a cyliner hone is somewhat for just a basic cleanup and to ensure good embedding of the rings and oil retention and deglaseing of the cylinder. i mean i allways hone my cylinders on my 2 stroke bikes after a re ring or a new top end.
Caleb Sandersier maybe. But i do know the chromolly coated pistons do seem to up the compression a little after they are broke in. Like say i leak test the bike and see that it holds lets say 190 psi before the first start up. I have seen that 190 go up to 210 and 220 after the initial break in. So thats a plus. And for me i rebuild my bikes once a year sometimes just re ring it if it dont need a new piston. And i never really see any glazeing on my cylinders. But if i remember right isnt glazeing caused by old gasoline. Correct me if im wrong.
I was under the impression glazeing just happens from not changing oil at proper intervals. Not sure about glazing with 2 strokes. You're probably right since the fuel is also essentially the oil too.
Caleb Sandersier i drive a 93 silverado with the 5.7. I change my oil with pensoil 10w-30. I like to add a little zinc additive too. Trucks got 230 or so thousand miles. Never have a problem. Never had any motor work. Just swapped out the auto trans with a 5speed. New clutch and fkywheel. Oil gets changed every 3 sometimes 4 thousand miles. I am a firm believer in regular oil changes and good maitinence. Trucks two wheel drive and when the motor goes down ima drop in a 383 and do some body work and paint the truck orange. But for now i beleive the stock 350 has earned its stay for the time being. I hope to see 300 thousand miles in it.
you're fired!!! It does transfer heat faster because it's basic knowledge that aluminum is used for it's temperature transferring properties , especially Heat... Therefore the closer compacted molecules transfer or absorb and distribute / dissipate Heat faster to the oil and the rest of the engine.
Do you believe that there is a huge difference in density between, say, a cast piston and a forged piston, using the same alloy? If you believe that, then you would be wrong.
In my experience, the forged pistons expanded too much and seized my engines. Factory Yamaha cast aluminum pistons didn't have a problem. Not all aluminum casting formulas and procedures are created equal. It's a guarded secret
Aluminum forging products are the result of a manufacturing method where the metal is pressed, squeezed and pounded under a great pressure to produce strong parts.The main benifits of aluminium Forging are High performance and strength,Forged aluminum is excellent for aerospace,Tools of the trade,Mark of quality ..etc refer the blog published by Aress www.indiaforging.com/blog/forging-for-the-future-the-importance-of-aluminum-forging-industry.php for detailed info about it
First, I thought it was an oiling issue or rebuild assembly issue. Then a cooling issue ... Still undetermined without the evaluations of many questions to conclude the exact cause / effect to damages to overcome it and make it proper in building yet a gain ... 😒
How about comparing 2 pistons for the same engine? How about talking about thermal expansion rates and how that relates to piston longevity? What about ductility and how that relates to overall strength? Every time something was brought up about a drawback to forged pieces, this guy basically deflected it and said “they’re lighter, and that’s better.” Come on man, one is not better than the other, each has its place and is better in certain areas.
Yeah I like once they got to heat portion of video he didn't wanna comment on how casted piston is better they also run quieter than forged. Witch I hate that knock noises a forged piston give you I will only run casted pistons in 2 stroke far as maintenance vs cost of top ends
I only use wisco pro lite piston kit in all my two strokes which I only run teo strokes dirt bikes wisco makes the best piston in my book I don't like the nakamura piston they don't stay together like buying them cheap ninch cylinder I go with OEM OEM replated or buy a orm cylinder the only way to go I no people that bought the ninch cylinder with piston rings and complete gaskets for yz 85 and 2 weeks later they blew up only OEM or replated my OEM cylinder only and run wisco pro lite piston kit with gaskets and everything needed for top end job on two strokes and 40 hours later still running great only wisco pro lite piston and rings only wisco products I have run them for over 30 years there the best
> "... and you stopped me and you wanted to tell everybody about the differences between forged and cast pistons" > "Yea we can do that for ya, no problem" So smartass PowerModz who stopped who ?
Seems you hear alot of people that put wisecos in sleds have seized engine issues. Whether it's improper clearance/ring gaps or improper warmup I'm not sure
I think it goes with the warm ups... Cold weather and these pistons don't mix ! IT really needs time and heat for safe operation. What happens is if you let the sled warm up to long on idle you end up blowing spark plugs. We had stopped for a lunch break on the hill and just totally forgot to warm up the pistons and went bonkers on the throttle and befor you know it... BOOM ! That damn grinding sound. Been on SPI's and the sled is still pulling strong !
I put wiseco in my former sled. Swb 2011 with 2873 turbo, intercooler etc. It has been up to 17 psi, normaly its on about 8-9. Everything from cold to hot weather, sealevel to high alt. It has worked very good for 2-3 years now. I talk to the new owner now and then, he is very happy with it.
Oh Wisco, find someone that knows what the hell they're talking about to rep your products. This guy used to be a P.E. teachetr or something. "a several ton press" .... I think several 1,000 ton press is a bit closer. IMHO this guy doesn't know shit about metallurgy or Mfg. process of anything.
Wiseco pistons don’t have a real place in the market for the average guy. If you’re trying to make 400Hp on a turbo sidewinder, sure. Unless you want to warm up your sled for 25 minutes everytime you start it go ahead…. and when it blows up you’ll have a complete boat anchor with a engine that’s not even reparable.
Forged will deform in the event of failure, cast items tend to break which causes catastrophic failure, the only down side to forged material is its expansion rate under heat so you need to properly warm up an item with a forged piston
Some decent info but a great deal of misinformation. They are comparing their own cast piston to their own forged piston, not an OEM cast piston. Avoiding a question about thermal expansion and heat dissipation which is the common downside to forged pistons aside from cost. Both are great options but they are dependent on usage, machine-ability of the block/piston to get your clearances, RPM, and torque. It's not as simple as get the stronger one. Would have appreciated a technical person answering the questions rather than a marketing person repeating what's in the brochure/marketing packet :-/
Initial DIY mods I agree. This dude's slick as hell. Gave a 2 minute speech about keeping the engine clean, then said almost nothing, then admitted he didn't know about which will last longer.
They also didn't mention the cast pistons can be run much tighter to the bore because they're high in silicone content. I think forged have their place in very high rpm or boosted situations, because they're more forgiving, but they need to have higher piston to cylinder clearances. I prefer a cast hyperutectic piston personally for stock or warmed over engines.
Pro x is made by the same company (ART) in japan who makes all the big major brands piston such as honda and Kawasaki. Virtually the same oem quality.
Just so you know, the reason he didn’t speak about heat or longevity is because forged pistons expand more under heat than cast pistons, and so they are manufactured with more clearance when they are cold. This leads to ‘piston slap’ which causes additional wear on your block. Bear in mind that he is trying to sell these pistons. Forged pistons should ideally only be used in racing or really high horsepower applications, they will cause your engine to need either a new block or resleeved sooner than using a cast piston.
This was the case 20 years ago…. It isn’t any longer.
The piston doesn't or should not touch the cylinder at all. If they do you have problems with clearance.
The rings keep the piston away from the cylinder.
@@goodboyringo9716 sure the piston doesn't actually contact the cylinder wall, but it does cause inconsistencies and rattling with the piston ring, thus "slapping" the cylinder wall. If someone punched you through a pillow, you would still be upset that they punched you. No need to nitpick
@@Cultofpersonality09129 whatever you say man, nevermind pistons with anti-slap coatings being kind of a hot commodity, and why you can audibly hear the difference between cast pistons and forged pistons on a cold start
@@propertarian485 ...Sorry but no rattling or slapping in my engine . Its important to measure the piston, bore & hone cylinder to fit.
Right, don't nitpick just use the best .
forging aluminum turns it into a wrought aluminum; wrought aluminum alloys can be 'stronger' (wtvr stronger means) but will make the alloy conduct heat much better and b/c the crystalin structure is more symetricall aligned, thermal expansion is also greatly increased with temp rise. There is zero reason to have forged pistons in anything but a track only car. Onto the interviewee, anyone who evades answering the question asked is either a salesman, politician or attorney.
Definitely dodged the forged temperature conversation
Yep he is not very good at delivering information.
He thought if he used some Latin we'd get distracted and forget about it.
forged pieces expand more than cast pieces when it gets hot
@SirSamterness BUT there's more. This is a very hard decision to make if you're trying to decide between forged or cast. There's also the theory that a forged piston when cold, since it does need to be smaller, can be too lose and damage your bore until it heats up. Also because of they're nature, you really really have to warm it up properly with forged, cast is less likely to cold seize if not warmed up properly. Alot of people also say it's not true that they're less likely to shatter, some say that the advancements in cast has closed the window. Hard to tell what's true
@@adriccochran4826 Heat soak in the piston can be somewhat reduced with ceramic coatings on the top of the piston which in turn reduces thermal expansion to compensate.
I think if wiseco had their own line of cast pistons they'd double their sales
Forged pistons are typically better for high performance applications like racing. They are much stronger than cast and handle heat better. However, they expand and are much more expensive to make.
It's funny how the guy dodged when he asked about heat😂
was literally gonna just say the same thing. thats the biggie. lol
Because its hard to answer. If it was steel vs aluminum, aluminum will dissipate heat waaay faster, but cast aluminum vs forged aluminum, I'm not sure.
@@TheIKAIKAIKA cast should have worse heat dissipation with more impurities.
Wiseco makes a beautiful product. I think their ring grooving and pin towers are especially well made.
Both seem like marketing people that don't really know their shit...
Cast for the long 🏃 forge for 🏎
Notice he didnt talk about expansion. Guys that run fordged know that if they dont give enough warmup time the expansion of the fordged piston is way slower so they dont honk on a cold engine or the fordged guy will blow it up.
Darrren Betker exactly 👐
If my cars got forged pistons am I okay to just start up and drive normally like to KFC and the shops? Not racing or anything
Adolf Shitler you should still let it idle for about 1-5 min depending on your environment (cold or hot) but don’t drive hard until you see your temp gauge at near or at full operating temp
Adolf Shitler a car is diffrent because its only spinning at 1-4k rpm. A dirt bike 2 stroke is what 9k rpm?
J M a 2 stroke is like 15,000 rpm
Thanks Louie. I had always heard that Wiesco forged pistons were the best but never the reasons why.
Brandon Pierce they are the best. Wiseco pistons rings and gaskets. Been using them for. Many many years now and never had problems on a build.
Blew my Wiseco in less then a year, it cracked on the thin wall and scored my cylinder wall. Raptor 660.
For the average Joe cast pistons are usually meet most applications, unless of course the application is calling for boosted or turbocharging where high temps are involved.
MrStoneycool69 so forged piston for forced induction.
Generally yes, to withstand higher combustion temperatures.
MrStoneycool69 That's probably why cars that are forced inducted from factory comes with forged internals like my supercharged minivan.
They need to make a chart for materials used in pistols and thresholds for applications.
Worst mistakes I ever made on my sled was running forged pistons. After religiously watching my operating temps they still cold sieze. Learned the hard way.
I am not a race car mechanic but I am a diesel mechanic for 12 years. Most engine failures ive rebuilt is a result of heat. The pistons melt once lubrication or cooling becomes insufficient and at this point your its already to late to save the engine. If you don't shut it down it will usually ends in catastrophic failure like throwing a rod or piston through the engine block. Point is heat and lubrication is really more important then actual strength or grain direction of the components. If you don't have proper function of heat dissipation or lubrication good luck. Only exception is incorrect timing and having valve interference but valves usually break before a piston.
the most important difference is rate of expansion,forged piston expand more so they need more piston to cyl wall clearance ,translate to piston slap when engine cold,so it is not good for daily drive cars,AND HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT!!
99% from the engines pistons runing in the world are cast pistons...forged are twice more expansive and only use in very high performance engines...
@@leneanderthalien that still does not change the fact about forged pistons,and his lack of knowledge about it!
I wish i was better informed between Forged vs Cast when i spent $120 on a wiseco piston. Piston skirts were already scuffed during first break in....sticking with OEM
They say piston velocity is the killer of cast pistons. 3500 feet per minute or 5500 rpm in your 427 big block Chevy, which has a crank stroke of 3.76”
This video was awesome exactly what I was wanting to hear well needing
Forged pistons expand more during heat absorption so the gap between the cylinder wall has to be greater to compensate... So your cold starts will see piston slap until it warms up which is damaging the engine bore.
4 yrs in my RMK with
Wiseco.
Stock 2yrs
Nothing wrong with cast. Tighter tolerance weight ends up being like half gram difference. Don't expand and whipe out cylinder bores. If v8 chevys are holding 700hp on cast pistons w boost u can't tell me ur 50hp bike needs forged
Forged lasts WAY longer in bikes. My 250cc dirtbike makes 50hp at the wheel. Thats like a Chevy 5.3 (5300cc engine) making 1060hp at the wheels.. And guess what? Thats about the power level that breaks chevy 5.3 pistons in one dyno pull
Aftermarket raptor 660 piston is 25$ Wiseco Piston 150$ Huge price different and my cheap after market has lasted as long.
Its obvious why a forged piston is stronger but I would have really liked to have seen apples to apples with the pistons they had displayed...they had two TOTALY different bore sizes between the two they comparred...huh
not just bore size, two completely different applications also, i believe.
That was just a rib inside piston not the actual skirt thickness. Wiseco's have a crappy high expansion rate, running 0.005" or more,bore clearance plus, they are usually heavy enough to need better rods and big end bearings. Get some Mahle, lighter, similar strength and lower expansion so you run almost 'normal' clearances
Peter, in my experience with many many 2 stroke and 4 stroke bike engines i've built, they run very little clearance. Yeah, maybe .001" more than a hypereutectic, but who compares anything forged to a cast piston of any alloy. isn't somewhere around .001" per inch bore pretty common for clearances? Wisco's 2 stroke forged pistons were generally a few grams lighter than the cast pistons, at least on the 50cc thru 250 cc engines i am most experienced with.
WelLRoundeDSquarE Wiseco have improved a tremendous amount since I first encountered them in the 1970's. Biggest improvement was when they got some CNC machines so pistons became consistent in size and weight. They may be even better today, but, as with a lot of things; 'once bitten twice shy' (I haven't even seen one for about 7 yrs, that was for1200cc HD Sportster, use 0.005"~0.0055" clearance for 'racing')
I know the difference since I was 15y lod and that was 22y ago....when I was 1st grade secondary school for Mechanical tehnician....now I am an engineer.but for casting metods now you can inject the material into the mould from the bottom and in that way the gravity does its part and it makes a product more stiffer than moulding it in traditional way
lol
Nice to now my V8 Cayenne has forged pistons - she’s 16 years old and revs at 6500-7500 without problems
Thanks a million guys. You're awesome.
Drinking game: take a shot every time this guy says “ok?”
HKM _ ok.
ok *hicks*
sank yu nau aim drunk
ummmkayyy
Dude Im Wasted!?😆
Wiseco needs to R&D some 4032s for Speed3s/FoSTs/FoRSes/FiSTs. Mahle did an amazing job doing so. Not everyone wants to run 2618s. Sure, they're strong, but they have much shorter service life and 4032s are much better for a performance daily driver.
And this "Rep" is a crackpot if he thinks there's no real difference in service life between hypereutectic and forged pistons o.0
To raise compression back to normal and to make your old worn out dirty Pistons look new Ron and Jen at 5000 RPMs and pour in water
Awesome Video, I will always use Wiseco products, I have there Pro X piston in my yz125 and even the way I ride, have fantastic luck with Wiseco and Pro X and will always use Wiseco products and Wiseco also has one of THEEE best gaskets sets on the market
Totally avoided heat dissipation question for a reason... Cast all the way folks, do your homework..
I suppose the circumstances could favor either method. I've torn down many lawn mower engines going to recycling and found most of those pistons are forged. I recall back some decades that during high speed constant stress applications like at Bonneville that more failures were showing up with forged parts, mostly holing them. It must be that there is something about forged that once it gets a soft spot, it goes to liquid very quickly.
Nice video and really good and simple explanation. Thank you!
Molecular? We are far from molecular level. Crystalline. Metal crystallizes as it transitions from liquid to solid. Forging breaks the crystals into much smaller fragments and in general causes the material to be tougher.
most basic explanation ever totally one sided for forgings he glanced by any drawbacks of a forged piece or the good things about a casting even made the price seem close
I like how he called it jewelry lol
Mmmm avoiding to answer questions
I put a set of their racing pistons in an Evinrude outboard that I had and it made a huge difference in power.
You got a video of before and after just wondering
@@fabianbird4584 unfortunately I don’t.
I think this must be day 2 at the convention they are at because this guy looks like he was trying to come down from some magical trip after just being woken up from the hotels' bathtub and told he must answer some questions. Up until he gets into it lol
The coating looked the same on both pistons ... Wouldn't the engraving do damages to the bore walls ? Or would tey fill up with coating after run time and cause burn/ scuff of the area where the sediment fills in the engraving ? Wouldn't this cause a lag in motion of piston ? Slowing down the rod travel as the crank tries to spin fast and burn up a roller bearing ? Premature firing / fowling plugs ? Curiosity killed the 🐱 (97 arctic cat thunder chicken 900 triple) ... Had wiseco pistons ... Exactly where the logo was is where it was worse in the jug and on the piston ... Would love to know more about this inevitable pre existing issue as it did same thing on my 94 ... Same place - nearly the exact same pattern ... Ironically !
"Heat Absorption... ?"
Let me rephrase that
"Longevity... ?"
I don't like hearing a piston manufacturer say "we got in there and hogged it out". Now saying "we CAD tested stress and structure tolerances to come up with an optimum balance for weight and strength" and that'll get me on board.
*THE PERSON EXPLAINING AVOIDS THE HEAT ABSORPTION QUESTION AND THAT USE OF FORGED PISTONS REDUCES LONGEVITY. Forged pistons EXPAND greatly due to heat while cast tends to resist expansion. You may ask who really cares??? Well with forged, you have to compensate for heat expansion by increasing the end-ring gap of rings. This means that when cold the piston is very sloppy in the cylinder and will induce wear on the cylinder wall. An engine with forged for daily use must at least be idled to fully come up temperature first. You should therefore never start and run a forged engine without being "up to temperature"; otherwise, the engine life will greatly shorten. Cast is much better since it coefficient of expansion is much less making it much better for street use. While adding silicon to forged piston material can help to reduce expansion and adding heat coatings hide the expansion problem, cast is still a much better choice for daily use including use with turbos or superchargers. So if you drive your car daily and but go to the track only periodically, cast is better and you will be able to go 100K or more with boost. I for one do not take my car to the drag strip.*
It makes me sad that a piston manufacturer doesn't know that forged aluminium has a much higher thermal expansion rate, which means that forged pistons expand more when warmed up to running engine temperature. This means you need bigger tolerance (between piston and cylinder) when you start the engine and by the time it is fully warmed up, which means more wear for the piston itself and you burn oil!!! Forged pistons are not for everyday use!
Well if you're going to race forged pistons will work but on start up it'll wear like hell , where cast is better at starting your bike cold and won't wear your engine as much and it's better for the average rider , so it makes no sense to use forged pistons because you will endup spending money on barrels if you don't race it
I just bought a Namura forged piston for a ' Zook LT 230 S quad, wow it seems heavy, I hope it doesn't overpower some other weak spot on the engine, I'm already expecting the clutch to need replacing.
* got in 100 hrs + on that piston, from hot days to cold safaris, it got rattle - y , I lost my oil filler cap one day, got the engine really hot before I knew what happened, so I think the crank & rod took too much heat to put a new piston onto , I think that would be bad move , so I'm looking at finding another engine or rebuild this one, I'd like to dodge that chore . A few pics on internet of people dropping in Honda 200 /250 trike engines , maybe look into that Frankenstein project
Hahaha changes subject or act dumb... He chose both
Yeah Great Explanation & Very Good Quality Pistons and Black Piston Coating.
This is like listening to a salesperson who has less knowledge about their products than you
I use wisco pro lite piston in all my two strokes dirt bike a work very well and will stay with wisco pro lite piston two rings they have worked well in my yz 85 and 125 and my Suzuki 250 wisco is one fine product in my book and that's what I choose too run in my 2 strokes dirt bikes I have I only put the pro lite piston kit with gaskets complete top end kit michaelholden1 out of north Carolina said that
NEW wiseco piston didn't make it passed the break in period., piston skirts were already scuffed, Standard bore...RM125
so basically other than being lighter and a little stronger, no difference. totally dodged the heat dissipation and longevity questions.
What about life of the part? Well how clean you keep it, how you drive it...blah blah... how clean you keep your filters... blah blah... and I don't know if there is a real benefit one vs the other with cast vs forged pistons" in regards to longevity. Well thanks for that bit of truth at the end of your rambling answer. I would like to hear an actual unbiased answer here as to whether or not forged pistons are worth the extra cost, especially under typical conditions where a small difference would not justify the expense.
"Ok? ok? ok? OKAAAAAY!!!" lol
Why aluminum? Titanium is way stronger and the weights are pretty close. I assume the weight to strength ratio would go in favor of titanium same with heat tolerance but wouldn't that make for more shaving of the weight for the same application for even more hp, responsiveness, higher rpm...
Wiseco is great, if Mitch Payton uses them to their own spec they are good. People who talks down on pistons companies needs to bring context, to many variabels to talk down certain pistons.
It's all about the tune folks...
i have been told not to run wisecos in my polaris IQR and only run the polaris oem pistons because the wisecos are known for failing and basically destroying the whole motor
So the guy compared 2 pistons with different sizes to show how less material is required, point taken. O o
They should try make CNC pistons to
Great explanation
If you are stupid then yes, great.
the way i see it, would i rather a piston absolutely destroy my engine or would I rather just have one piston be totally destroyed in the event of failure?
Everyone in the comments section talking about how forged pistons expand more then cast yet they failed to notice the ceramic coatings on the top of the pistons which reduces heat soak into the piston and therefore expansion. In saying that though the forged piston he showed had no coating on the top which is a bit of a head scratcher to me?
Outstanding review.
Forged destroys cylinder walls until it warms up. It's horrible for a daily driver.
Great video, really useful
Wiseco ECT want to sell u forged. There's a reason 2 strokes come from factory cast. There's a reason they are used in crazy 125 street smokers that make 55 horse
You can tell he didn't want to say which one is better for longer time which Cast is better for Daily street hard driven cars compared to Forged that actually do end up Expanding over time. Forged is good for A Non Daily Car made more for track amd cast for daily driven cars.
Pretty good sales pitch that guy has going on there.👍🔧🚲💸
How can I get in touch with you about ordering a stock piston and rings 2 rings on the 2006 ya 85 what's the best type too use please send me some information on ordering a complete rebuild top and kit complete with gaskets and everything needed to rebuild topend on 2006 yz85 with stock bore would like to have doomed style piston makes more compression thanks again Michael Holden out of north Carolina said that thank you on such a great video
so then what would be the point in honing the cylinder with all that crap on the sides of the piston
the crosshatching given after a cyliner hone is somewhat for just a basic cleanup and to ensure good embedding of the rings and oil retention and deglaseing of the cylinder. i mean i allways hone my cylinders on my 2 stroke bikes after a re ring or a new top end.
I see. But this seems as if it would fill in and/or wear away the cross hatching. This seams as if it would help glazing the cylinder wall.
Caleb Sandersier maybe. But i do know the chromolly coated pistons do seem to up the compression a little after they are broke in. Like say i leak test the bike and see that it holds lets say 190 psi before the first start up. I have seen that 190 go up to 210 and 220 after the initial break in. So thats a plus. And for me i rebuild my bikes once a year sometimes just re ring it if it dont need a new piston. And i never really see any glazeing on my cylinders. But if i remember right isnt glazeing caused by old gasoline. Correct me if im wrong.
I was under the impression glazeing just happens from not changing oil at proper intervals. Not sure about glazing with 2 strokes. You're probably right since the fuel is also essentially the oil too.
Caleb Sandersier i drive a 93 silverado with the 5.7. I change my oil with pensoil 10w-30. I like to add a little zinc additive too. Trucks got 230 or so thousand miles. Never have a problem. Never had any motor work. Just swapped out the auto trans with a 5speed. New clutch and fkywheel. Oil gets changed every 3 sometimes 4 thousand miles. I am a firm believer in regular oil changes and good maitinence. Trucks two wheel drive and when the motor goes down ima drop in a 383 and do some body work and paint the truck orange. But for now i beleive the stock 350 has earned its stay for the time being. I hope to see 300 thousand miles in it.
you're fired!!! It does transfer heat faster because it's basic knowledge that aluminum is used for it's temperature transferring properties , especially Heat... Therefore the closer compacted molecules transfer or absorb and distribute / dissipate Heat faster to the oil and the rest of the engine.
Do you believe that there is a huge difference in density between, say, a cast piston and a forged piston, using the same alloy? If you believe that, then you would be wrong.
@@UncleKennysPlace care to explain? Would density be a factor in eliminating heat quicker or would there be resistance?
In my experience, the forged pistons expanded too much and seized my engines. Factory Yamaha cast aluminum pistons didn't have a problem. Not all aluminum casting formulas and procedures are created equal. It's a guarded secret
ruclips.net/video/rN2ND_FPnUA/видео.html
Aluminum forging products are the result of a manufacturing method where the metal is pressed, squeezed and pounded under a great pressure to produce strong parts.The main benifits of aluminium Forging are High performance and strength,Forged aluminum is excellent for aerospace,Tools of the trade,Mark of quality ..etc refer the blog published by Aress www.indiaforging.com/blog/forging-for-the-future-the-importance-of-aluminum-forging-industry.php for detailed info about it
Buy cast unless you’re racing ever notice stock cast last forever
Same issues on my 96 skidoo 670 mach build with wiseco pistons !
First, I thought it was an oiling issue or rebuild assembly issue. Then a cooling issue ... Still undetermined without the evaluations of many questions to conclude the exact cause / effect to damages to overcome it and make it proper in building yet a gain ... 😒
That was a great video.
cast piston is more stable dimentionaly get your crosshatch and clearances right cast will outperform
This guy needs to get out more often
where in Canada can i get some good quality cast pistons like those PROX he had on display ? 550 fan brp big bore if possible .
Oh man all these comments. So I’m about to invest in new parts for my 2009 summit 800R. Forged or cast ?
What are them pro x pistons made out of?? Forged or cast??
How about comparing 2 pistons for the same engine? How about talking about thermal expansion rates and how that relates to piston longevity? What about ductility and how that relates to overall strength? Every time something was brought up about a drawback to forged pieces, this guy basically deflected it and said “they’re lighter, and that’s better.” Come on man, one is not better than the other, each has its place and is better in certain areas.
Yeah I like once they got to heat portion of video he didn't wanna comment on how casted piston is better they also run quieter than forged. Witch I hate that knock noises a forged piston give you I will only run casted pistons in 2 stroke far as maintenance vs cost of top ends
I only use wisco pro lite piston kit in all my two strokes which I only run teo strokes dirt bikes wisco makes the best piston in my book I don't like the nakamura piston they don't stay together like buying them cheap ninch cylinder I go with OEM OEM replated or buy a orm cylinder the only way to go I no people that bought the ninch cylinder with piston rings and complete gaskets for yz 85 and 2 weeks later they blew up only OEM or replated my OEM cylinder only and run wisco pro lite piston kit with gaskets and everything needed for top end job on two strokes and 40 hours later still running great only wisco pro lite piston and rings only wisco products I have run them for over 30 years there the best
> "... and you stopped me and you wanted to tell everybody about the differences between forged and cast pistons"
> "Yea we can do that for ya, no problem"
So smartass PowerModz who stopped who ?
you got it all
It is jewelry 👌
Amazing . . .
I got Wiseco pistons and they all good after 80.000kms
Wiseco had it in my dirtbike RM 250 2 stroke worked magic ! But to my RMK... different story...
you have a "seizco" in your rmk? lol
Yesco...
Seems you hear alot of people that put wisecos in sleds have seized engine issues. Whether it's improper clearance/ring gaps or improper warmup I'm not sure
I think it goes with the warm ups... Cold weather and these pistons don't mix ! IT really needs time and heat for safe operation. What happens is if you let the sled warm up to long on idle you end up blowing spark plugs. We had stopped for a lunch break on the hill and just totally forgot to warm up the pistons and went bonkers on the throttle and befor you know it... BOOM ! That damn grinding sound. Been on SPI's and the sled is still pulling strong !
I put wiseco in my former sled. Swb 2011 with 2873 turbo, intercooler etc. It has been up to 17 psi, normaly its on about 8-9. Everything from cold to hot weather, sealevel to high alt. It has worked very good for 2-3 years now. I talk to the new owner now and then, he is very happy with it.
Isn't forged metal made by casting???
lie until they leave or talk about anything you have no idea about
Good video, very educational
Forged pistons are FAR stronger than cast pistons. They last multiple times longer than cast in every engine ive ever built and raced.
Oh Wisco, find someone that knows what the hell they're talking about to rep your products. This guy used to be a P.E. teachetr or something. "a several ton press" .... I think several 1,000 ton press is a bit closer. IMHO this guy doesn't know shit about metallurgy or Mfg. process of anything.
Wiseco pistons don’t have a real place in the market for the average guy. If you’re trying to make 400Hp on a turbo sidewinder, sure. Unless you want to warm up your sled for 25 minutes everytime you start it go ahead…. and when it blows up you’ll have a complete boat anchor with a engine that’s not even reparable.
Ive never warmed them up...well maybe for a minute.
Guess this guy doesn’t want to talk about piston slap with the forged piston