*Please help support independent RV reviews with a 1-time donation:* www.paypal.me/ultramobility *Or a small monthly subscription goes a long way!* www.patreon.com/ultramobility Full Roadtrek Simplicity SRT Review: ruclips.net/video/NFRH1DNUFq4/видео.html Full Roadtrek Zion SRT Review: ruclips.net/video/3Xa2hh4i-sk/видео.html
Neil..so great. You are turning into a great "journalist" my friend. Head to head comparisons are such a pain for consumers..then you come along and lay it all out in a clear, concise manner that is actually fun to watch..great job! This is the definition of "news you can use." Reviews like this should be all over the place..but they are not because they take too much work for most people..thanks for putting in the work, great job!!!
Wow thank you so much Rich. I worked hard on this episode and I really enjoyed it and I did try very hard to make sure that I was fair but also giving viewers a lot of useful information.
I’d much rather have the Zion instead of the Simplicity because of those extra options such as Volt Start, 400 amp hour lithium ion batteries and 300 watts of solar power! :-)
Understanding your criteria, the *Zion* _still_ beats out the *Simplicity,* as it has options we really desire. I told you before that we have the *LTV Unity IB* at the top of our list. However, you are really giving us pause and we may reconsider our dislike of the wet bath. 🤔 Love this battle! Thanks!
Great review. Been waiting for reviews of not-insanely-priced class B's. Love the idea of College football type playoff to pick a winner. You are the man!!
Neil....you are a very resourceful person to provide information about RVs. ..Thanks! You make our journey less confusing by proving informations with the pros and cons! We just subscribed to your Ultramobility site! We are seriously looking at class B camper vans and have narrowed it down to a few specific things that we are looking for. Not sure if these six things we want are available in any one class B van but was hoping you could direct us to something close! 1. a front lounge, 2.chassis 19' or 20', 3.gas engine, 4.rear wheel drive, 5.four seasons (because we live in Alaska), 6.upright galley sink facet not marine style.....Can you help us on our quest to purchase our first rv?
I think these Bs should have at least solar options. But I guess since this is an affordability shoot out, this is a good comparison. I would rather see a shoot out on the "most bang for the buck" class Bs. Or the "most options for the buck". To me, if you can get a fully loaded out Zion SRT for $100k, I suspect it would be the winner of one of these latter shoot outs!
I love this idea Neil, this was a lot of fun to watch, feels like NCAA tournament. You should do a bunch of these in March, during “March Madness”. Before you know it you’ll be doing color commentary for sporting events 😀. I think you know who I’m rooting for in this overall contest, gotta love the little guy! In fact if I ever buy an Axion I’m going to nickname him “Rudy”!
Ultramobility yes I love the format, it’s fun, you get to root for your favorite and it keeps you engaged all the way to the end, I would suspect most people will watch the entire video just for the suspense of it all. And they’ll probably tune in for the next match and the final round too! Fantastic idea and you could do match ups for all different categories. I like this more than just the straightforward head 2 head, the final four idea is fantastic. The little scorecard is a really nice touch!
Love your videos. I would love some future videos where you compare the best fridge, best heating system, best cooktop/oven etc. For example, you said one option got points for an induction cooktop- what are the advantages. Is the Alde heating system quieter than others? Looking forward to round two.
Like the video. Great job as usual. One issue I had was pricing with maxed out items, I think you should have built the two with the same options to make them comparable and compared the price and gave points to the best price.
Since affordability is important, I think you got it right. Yes, all those goodies are nice but $11K nice? Not when on a tight budget. About the only one I would want from the Zion is the Aldi system.
Agree with your conclusion and affordability point awarding. The only non-$$ hurdle for me is the total lack of solar on the Simplicity. Could be a deal breaker especially considering the standard electrical system. Of course both could be fairly easily upgraded aftermarket.
You nailed it as usual Neil..Imagine how big your sphere will be when you finish with class B's! Advertisers and subs will all come soon..hang on for the ride and keep generating great content and it will happen.
Love the format and appreciate your energies in providing such a great comparison. I'm still favoring the 2018 PW Lexor TS mainly because of the bath, and I don't see the value in the changes in the 2019 compared to the price difference. Since nothing is carved in stone, your comparison are a tremendous help . Thank you so much for sharing.
i'm not feeling the PW 2019 interior color scheme changes. not a fan of the new concrete and neutral Corian nor the darker pewter ultra-leather and not a fan of the panelled bathroom walls either. that's just me.
I agree, I simply did not see the value compared to the jump in price. Understanding all things normally go up, but these changes not only appeal to me, but foremost I don't see the value justifies the added price.
@@Ultramobility If you pay to upgrade a Zion, then the Hymer Aktiv 1.0 is similar in price and specs to the Zion, right? I can't afford a brand new vehicle and with depreciation, it makes much more sense to buy used, but there's not a lot of inventory out there. Most are from dealers that have rented out the new models, then sold them a year or two later, which is what I'm looking to buy. Private parties have spent too much buying them new and so they are asking too much when they want to sell them used.
I really enjoy your reviews and watch pretty much all of them. That said, I don’t understand the emphasis on warranty length. Companies bulk up the retail price in order to cover longer warranties. That might be a fine trade off except it’s like any insurance. If you can self insure you will be better off. But more importantly: getting warranty work done is a big pain. It is much quicker - and there are more options - to get repairs done when NOT using a warranty claim since warranty work earns dealers the least money so they schedule one weeks or months into the future. Compare that to being a cash customer, who goes to the head of the line and can choose from any repair service, facility or company. One year is long enough for things to shake down. After that, I’d rather not be paying for a warranty and simply have cash in my pocket instead.
not quite. warranty generally reflects the build quality. if you use stick framing and staples as a manufacturer you *have* to offer a 1 year warranty. There's no way you'd be able to make a profit otherwise. but for the consumer, there's nothing much you can do when all the cabinets are using stick framing and start to fall apart *other than* trade in the rv which is what the dealers and manufacturers that use cheap quality want. so a longer warranty is more of an xray lens many times to what's going on behind the scenes. yes the price goes up because more labor and time is needed in order to build to a higher standard. when you're paying well over $100k for some of these rigs then things like build quality really matter since you're never going to get your money back. you want that rv to last as long as possible and that's where a good warranty comes in. of course just my strong opinion which many viewers will take or leave. but if you leave it do so at your own peril. I have personal experience with bad build quality and vowed I would point this out for all future buyers so that they could avoid the costly mistake I made.
I agree that poor quality is a bad choice even when cheaper. I disagree that warranty length reflects the build quality. Rather, warranty length represents how much money the manufacturer sets aside for repair claims and that is much more closely associated with length of time than build choices. Quality is a small piece of the equation and I agree that quality is very important and there are a lot of pricey coaches with poor quality choices, eg, Winnie, that should be avoided. Even a ten year warranty wouldn’t make a stick and staple coach worth buying, imo. But warranty length is more about accruing for claims ahead of time than construction choices, and length is the main multiplier, and the accountants just add to the price to cover longer lengths. I’d rather buy a quality coach with a short warranty and pocket the savings. Especially since warranty service is so much worse (scheduling etc) than regular service work. You yourself have pointed out well made coaches with short warranties and poorly made ones with multiple year warranties. I’d rather buy the former and don’t believe it reflects while quality but just a less inflated price.
Neil, It will be intersting to hear you compare a 9.6 gal. black tank on the Roadtrek's (with no black tank flush) with the Hymer 4.6 gal. cassette toilet. Two suggestions: (1) make sure you include the ability to "option" a second cassette to carry and as use if needed. If capacity is really a concern, Hymer gives the ability to double it, right? (2) Users can thoroughly clean out a cassette, but not so much a black tank with no flush.
Great idea to do a comparison, especially on the cost. Very helpful for newbies. But I am guessing these are US prices? I saw a PW Ascent, 2017 listed at a local dealer. When I asked about the price (online), I was given just the MSRP which was $158K! The dealer did not give me their price. I have not yet responded because I am still in shock as to how expensive this is. I was thinking maybe 100K tops but would prefer to spend around 80 ish.
For 2020 and the new Roadtrek, I didn’t see a Simplicity as one of its models. Can you confirm that the Simplicity is no longer available for 2020? Also, the new warranty for Roadtrek is 2 years. If you were going to hold another competition, how would the Roadtrek Zion SRT compare to the Travato or Thor Sequence/Tellaro. Also, has the company in Quebec that makes the Panoramic found an a East Coast distributor? That may be my favorite Promaster design but I’d like to know how long I can expect to wait. Thanks, Neil!
Hi Neil. Thanks for your informative reviews. I'm a subscriber and "Like" your videos. It's 2019, so shouldn't the entry level vans should have Back-up cams and a good fan in the bathroom?! #BASIC Also, I don't eat food that's been cooked in a Microwave (plus they use a ton of power), so I'd prefer a convection oven, so I will try to swap that out on the one I buy (if it doesn't have it). Many 2019 entry-level camper vans don't even have a recessed stove or sink with a cover so you can actually use the counter-space or positive locking doors & cabinets. Who designs these things? ;) I've been seriously looking at both of these, but now I think the Hymer Aktiv 1.0 is a better buy. The bed has to be able to get out of the way and turn into a couch or fold up Murphy-bed style. I have some BIG questions: WHY are Class B "motorhomes" SO EXPENSiVE in the USA (in respect to average worker's salaries and minimum wages).?! The Dodge Promaster Chasis is just a basic box van that camper conversion companies use to build with and the conversion companies (Roadtrek, etc.) should be getting good wholesale pricing on. Since these conversion companies are doing assembly-line type build outs (and not 1-off custom), they should be getting components cheaply as well, so they shouldn't need to charge $80k + for an "entry-level" camper van. I shouldn't need to take out a home mortgage to pay for a vehicle that looses value over time (based on model year and number of miles driven), while a real home can gain value over time (gain equity). WHY ARE THERE SO FEW CLASS B CAMPER-VANS AVAILABLE? (currently). When I spoke to a lender about financing for a van, he had to ask about why I wanted to buy a van like this and we got into a discussion. Most people are stuck at a desk job that they don't like and want to be on the road, going to beautiful places in nature and these vans are a great solution. So why aren't more available at better prices? The high prices and lack of availability are why so many people are making their own DYI funky-camper vans and going to the bathroom in a bucket or a gas station. Right? What gives? I live in San Francisco and it seems that my main dealer options are in Mesa, AZ, Las Vegas, and in the Seattle area. Plus, we've got a very SERIOUS HOUSING ISSUE in the Bay Area and beyond that is forcing people to live out of campers. That's another issue, but the fact that there should be a demand should drive competition, lower prices, and improve quality. Someday I'm sure we'll have all-electric vans with very high-tech TESLA Lithium Ion batteries, but then again PG&E is having to shut down the grid to prevent fires.....THANK YOU for your reply. -Phil
Thank you, very helpful for newbies! But are these US prices? I was shocked by the price of a PW Ascent, 2017 on a local lot, when I enquired and was given the MSRP of over $158K. Way over what I want to spend.
Neil, Thanks for the reviews. Since all four of the contestants are built on the Promaster I have one question. Have you noticed if the driver's seating position and leg room/length to the pedals is the same across all coach builders using the Promaster? I have sat in the driver's seat in an Aktiv and a Travato and both seemed short and a bit strange. I am not that tall but have long legs and my knee gets hung up on the back side of the steering wheel when shifting my foot from the gas to brake pedal. This is something I have not experienced in the Transit or Sprinter. Thanks
Yes I've noticed that the seating position is pretty much the same on all of them. the steering wheel is at an odd angle but I'd likely get used to that. the only big difference between them is if there's something behind the driver's seat which would block the seat from reclining or moving back. The CrossFit doesn't have anything behind but many others do.
Love the head-to-head comparisons in bracket form. The problem is point valuation. The simplicity and price of the Simplicity is alluring, but its electrical deficiencies when compared against the Zion are great. If you use these campers as mainly going from campground-to-campground (which is probably not how this type of camper is usually used), then the Simplicity is a big winner. If we're talking boondocking, then the comparison tends to bring the Zion's electrical strengths more into focus. What is the value of an almost-always-legal 19.7 ft chassis to an urban boondocker? Massive, but not as much to the out-in-the-boonies camper. It will be interesting to see how that and the 9.6 gallon black tank compares in the final because that should be a severe point deduction to a boondocker of any stripe.
you can get the Zion. if you value solar then just add the solar into the price but the Simplicity would still win. Even at base model pricing the Simplicity wins because it is $20k less expensive and only gives up an outside shower. Since this competition is on price that's the main factor. if we do another comparison on a different axis then the Simplicity likely wouldn't win.
To evaluate value, the first thing, IMO, is that you would have to determine how you will be using the vehicle and your priorities. Then compare your priorities to values
yep there's no one size that fits all. my videos are about helping people understand the differences between coaches. the scoring is more for fun. I think you have the right idea by knowing what you want. hopefully my videos help you see the varying strengths and weaknesses of every coach.
Neil, I disagree with your selection. You seem to be basing it on price alone- not apples to apples! After messing with the manual awning on my pop-up, the power awning on the Zion alone makes it my winner (not to mention all of the other options). Just my humble opinion!
many thanks for sharing your thought Steve. I respect your choice. I hope the competition nature of my head to heads don't get too much in the way of what the videos are really all about and that's giving out useful information about the various rigs. the competition is more of just entertainment.
@@Ultramobility Like the Aktiv 2.0 to the ZION longer length version? They have a 3500 Zion with twin beds, not sure if they have a sofa one. Either against the Aktiv 2.0 would be good. I've heard that the Aktiv 2.0 is a good value.
I wasn't aware that the length coincides with the weight. Can the 2500 come in extra long or extended? Are there RV manufacturers using the 3500 extended? I have noticed with the Ford Transit,the 150 doesn't come in high roof extended. But the 250 does. This information is important and the weight capacity as well. Now I'm thinking about the other Promaster models. I will have to back and review. Thank you Neil for this video.
hi there. Ram has 3 different lengths: the 1500 which is 17'9", the 2500 which is 19'6" and the 3500 which is 20'11". All have the exact same engine specs. just length changes. the weights are more determined by the coach builder and what they're putting inside the coaches. less to do with the length of the van. make sense?
@@Ultramobility The wheel base followd too or are there options? Are all 3500 159 extended? You have made some good videos pointing out the difference. You have the Sprinter 144 and you've explained why. The floorplan is an important detail. The Travato had 2 floorplans. I don't remember the size Promaster. Maybe you could mention in your video the models with sizes of RoadTrek,Hymer,Winnebago and Pleasure Way. All Promaster. I always like interior dimensions and comparisons. What are the actual size differences in the bathrooms in the Promaster models? This may help in decision making.
I really don't see how you can rate the Simplicity above the Zion when the Simplicity cannot have Solar Fitted or Lithium batterys. Also why say options added to the Zion which a prospective buyer might not buy affects the score. It would make more sense to compare both models in their standard[no added optoions] form. As a fun review just before Xmas fine but as a serious comparison not so much. I like the way you present your reviews though.
Either base it on standard base pricing in which case the simplicity SRT would win since it’s close to $20,000 less expensive than the zion srt. That episode would be around 30 seconds in length and not much value to viewers. Or, you do it the way I did it and list out and give points for every available option that is not available on the other but then compensate for price since this is an affordable assault. And when you do that The Simplicity SRT wins again. The latter way gives you the same result but with a lot more information that is valuable to the viewer.
Yep Subjective scoring. Just like Olympic judges. Since this is a competition about affordability it made sense to way points more toward lower prices. But that’s just me if it we’re a competition on luxury the scoring would be different.
hi Barbara. lithium batteries biggest benefit are that they allow you to discharge faster and deeper and charge up faster than lead acid batteries. they don't really help to lower operating costs. they are also less heavy and smaller in size but they need to generally be installed inside the van because they don't like to be charged in below freezing temperatures (that takes up valuable space) and they add up front cost.
yes. only options that are not available on the other. in this case the rear sofa bed. that is the only option on the simplicity srt that is not available on the zion and for which it received a point.
I guess I'm puzzled by your assertion every other single class B RV review channel is sponsored or otherwise compensated by manufacturers. Are they disclosing that on their websites or something? They certainly aren't making that clear in their videos. Perhaps a video on who is getting paid would be nice.
I shouldn't really call them out in a video but two: RV Lifestyle with Mike and Jennifer Wendlend and We're the Russos are both sponsored by Roadtrek/Hymer.
They do not disclose their affiliation with the manufacturers. I directly asked RV Living who is compensated by Road Trek and they acknowledged this on a live chat.
@@Ultramobility I understand RUclips is sensitive about anything that might be construed as bullying or sharing non public information. But the lack of disclosure by compensated reviewers/vloggers is frustrating and widespread across all of RUclips. I don't have a problem with people making money but they need to be more transparent.
Steve, I completely agree. I have been frustrated that some of these channels do not disclose to viewers their affiliation with their sponsors. They have reviewed RVs without disclosing their affiliation. they give positive reviews to their sponsor's products without a clear indication that they're sponsored. it's a real shame and disservice to RUclips viewers. When they're called on it they get defensive and ugly. It's unfortunate.
I don't think that you realize when you say, "help me stay independent" it kind of implies that you can be bought. When you started this you told us this was a passion project. I think the people watching this would rather support someone who is having fun and doing what they love...then the guy you are pretending to be when you imply that if you don't get paid you might...take money from RV dealers to give them better free advertising? That's pretty immoral, and would take all the fun out of it. Today my friend and I were discussing the difference between a tip and a bribe. We decided a tip follows service. It's ok to welcome a tip, but not if you want to come off like you don't really need it. It's hard to do both. I would suggest that you get congruent with one or the other and then just go with that. Blessed Be!
Yeah I guess I hear what you're saying. I suppose I should just stick with saying "Help support independent RV reviews". I would never take money from RV manufacturers to give them better/free advertising. That is immoral but plenty of RV lifestyle channels here on RUclips do just that.
I don't know why in your pm you said that you "never said it was a passion project" as if that's something to be ashamed of. I am not going to go back to your first few videos and find where you said that, and I routinely remember things verbatim that make an impression on me, and that comment did. I thought it was endearing. That was back when you almost exclusively used the adjective "nice" and referenced your specific RV in every video, because that was your comfort zone. You have expanded and created a quality channel. There is no shame in inviting a tip.
I concur. A manual awning is better than a powered one. Less cost, minimal or no repair costs, easy and quick to operate. Similarly, I prefer manual seat adjusters to powered units.
I beg to differ, ZION should be the winner as it offers so many more options which Simplicity cannot offer. I would rather marry a woman who is good looking, great cook, excellent host and has a cushy job vrs just a good looking one. Sorry man.
@@Ultramobility 6 points for the price is not sence, looks like you are pushing it to win no matter what. I understand price was really important but this was not a fair evaluation.
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Full Roadtrek Simplicity SRT Review: ruclips.net/video/NFRH1DNUFq4/видео.html
Full Roadtrek Zion SRT Review: ruclips.net/video/3Xa2hh4i-sk/видео.html
Neil..so great. You are turning into a great "journalist" my friend. Head to head comparisons are such a pain for consumers..then you come along and lay it all out in a clear, concise manner that is actually fun to watch..great job! This is the definition of "news you can use." Reviews like this should be all over the place..but they are not because they take too much work for most people..thanks for putting in the work, great job!!!
Wow thank you so much Rich. I worked hard on this episode and I really enjoyed it and I did try very hard to make sure that I was fair but also giving viewers a lot of useful information.
Great video! nice breakdowns.
glad you found it useful! I try!
I’d much rather have the Zion instead of the Simplicity because of those extra options such as Volt Start, 400 amp hour lithium ion batteries and 300 watts of solar power! :-)
Understanding your criteria, the *Zion* _still_ beats out the *Simplicity,* as it has options we really desire.
I told you before that we have the *LTV Unity IB* at the top of our list. However, you are really giving us pause and we may reconsider our dislike of the wet bath. 🤔
Love this battle! Thanks!
really glad that you've found my head2head valuable!
Great review. Been waiting for reviews of not-insanely-priced class B's. Love the idea of College football type playoff to pick a winner. You are the man!!
Thanks Arvin!
Neil....you are a very resourceful person to provide information about RVs. ..Thanks! You make our journey less confusing by proving informations with the pros and cons! We just subscribed to your Ultramobility site! We are seriously looking at class B camper vans and have narrowed it down to a few specific things that we are looking for. Not sure if these six things we want are available in any one class B van but was hoping you could direct us to something close! 1. a front lounge, 2.chassis 19' or 20', 3.gas engine, 4.rear wheel drive, 5.four seasons (because we live in Alaska),
6.upright galley sink facet not marine style.....Can you help us on our quest to purchase our first rv?
I think these Bs should have at least solar options. But I guess since this is an affordability shoot out, this is a good comparison. I would rather see a shoot out on the "most bang for the buck" class Bs. Or the "most options for the buck". To me, if you can get a fully loaded out Zion SRT for $100k, I suspect it would be the winner of one of these latter shoot outs!
great idea Jay! I'll have to see if I can schedule that in the new year!
At $100k, very close to a PW Lexor FL, which I think is better quality than the Zion; my 2 cents.
Solar option prices are crazy, solar panels and electronics are cheap (can get a 100W kit for $200) and installing during the build is easy.
Good show!
Always like your reviews, just perfect! The superbowl of van reviews!
I love this idea Neil, this was a lot of fun to watch, feels like NCAA tournament. You should do a bunch of these in March, during “March Madness”. Before you know it you’ll be doing color commentary for sporting events 😀. I think you know who I’m rooting for in this overall contest, gotta love the little guy! In fact if I ever buy an Axion I’m going to nickname him “Rudy”!
thanks, Ben! I really enjoyed making this video. I think i'll keep this format moving forward. what do you think?
Ultramobility yes I love the format, it’s fun, you get to root for your favorite and it keeps you engaged all the way to the end, I would suspect most people will watch the entire video just for the suspense of it all. And they’ll probably tune in for the next match and the final round too! Fantastic idea and you could do match ups for all different categories. I like this more than just the straightforward head 2 head, the final four idea is fantastic. The little scorecard is a really nice touch!
Love your videos. I would love some future videos where you compare the best fridge, best heating system, best cooktop/oven etc. For example, you said one option got points for an induction cooktop- what are the advantages. Is the Alde heating system quieter than others? Looking forward to round two.
well I didn't qualify the options just gave them points for having them. some will want them and others won't. thank you for your comment!
Like the video. Great job as usual. One issue I had was pricing with maxed out items, I think you should have built the two with the same options to make them comparable and compared the price and gave points to the best price.
You can’t Bob that was my point. The simplicity doesn’t offer really any of the options that are on the Zion except for the underhood generator
Since affordability is important, I think you got it right. Yes, all those goodies are nice but $11K nice? Not when on a tight budget. About the only one I would want from the Zion is the Aldi system.
thank you! that's exactly the point that I'm making. For those of us looking for an affordable camper van then price trumps everything.
It's ridiculous Road Trek offers these as two models. They're the same. It's confusing for customers. Just offer one model with options. Jeez.
agree.
Agree with your conclusion and affordability point awarding. The only non-$$ hurdle for me is the total lack of solar on the Simplicity. Could be a deal breaker especially considering the standard electrical system. Of course both could be fairly easily upgraded aftermarket.
You nailed it as usual Neil..Imagine how big your sphere will be when you finish with class B's! Advertisers and subs will all come soon..hang on for the ride and keep generating great content and it will happen.
"Stay on target!"
Thanks for the video. great one
Merry Christmas. I like your RV reviews.
Love the review .. were you a Math/Stat. teacher before? .... lol Great job N
lol nope an engineer!
Love the format and appreciate your energies in providing such a great comparison. I'm still favoring the 2018 PW Lexor TS mainly because of the bath, and I don't see the value in the changes in the 2019 compared to the price difference. Since nothing is carved in stone, your comparison are a tremendous help . Thank you so much for sharing.
i'm not feeling the PW 2019 interior color scheme changes. not a fan of the new concrete and neutral Corian nor the darker pewter ultra-leather and not a fan of the panelled bathroom walls either. that's just me.
I agree, I simply did not see the value compared to the jump in price. Understanding all things normally go up, but these changes not only appeal to me, but foremost I don't see the value justifies the added price.
I really enjoy your unbias reviews. Enjoy the holidays. Sheila
Thank you S Baker!
The Hymer Activ 1.0 could be part of this comparison review.
perhaps. it's priced a bit higher than these.
@@Ultramobility If you pay to upgrade a Zion, then the Hymer Aktiv 1.0 is similar in price and specs to the Zion, right? I can't afford a brand new vehicle and with depreciation, it makes much more sense to buy used, but there's not a lot of inventory out there. Most are from dealers that have rented out the new models, then sold them a year or two later, which is what I'm looking to buy. Private parties have spent too much buying them new and so they are asking too much when they want to sell them used.
I really enjoy your reviews and watch pretty much all of them.
That said, I don’t understand the emphasis on warranty length.
Companies bulk up the retail price in order to cover longer warranties. That might be a fine trade off except it’s like any insurance. If you can self insure you will be better off.
But more importantly: getting warranty work done is a big pain. It is much quicker - and there are more options - to get repairs done when NOT using a warranty claim since warranty work earns dealers the least money so they schedule one weeks or months into the future. Compare that to being a cash customer, who goes to the head of the line and can choose from any repair service, facility or company.
One year is long enough for things to shake down. After that, I’d rather not be paying for a warranty and simply have cash in my pocket instead.
not quite. warranty generally reflects the build quality. if you use stick framing and staples as a manufacturer you *have* to offer a 1 year warranty. There's no way you'd be able to make a profit otherwise. but for the consumer, there's nothing much you can do when all the cabinets are using stick framing and start to fall apart *other than* trade in the rv which is what the dealers and manufacturers that use cheap quality want. so a longer warranty is more of an xray lens many times to what's going on behind the scenes. yes the price goes up because more labor and time is needed in order to build to a higher standard. when you're paying well over $100k for some of these rigs then things like build quality really matter since you're never going to get your money back. you want that rv to last as long as possible and that's where a good warranty comes in. of course just my strong opinion which many viewers will take or leave. but if you leave it do so at your own peril. I have personal experience with bad build quality and vowed I would point this out for all future buyers so that they could avoid the costly mistake I made.
I agree that poor quality is a bad choice even when cheaper. I disagree that warranty length reflects the build quality.
Rather, warranty length represents how much money the manufacturer sets aside for repair claims and that is much more closely associated with length of time than build choices. Quality is a small piece of the equation and I agree that quality is very important and there are a lot of pricey coaches with poor quality choices, eg, Winnie, that should be avoided. Even a ten year warranty wouldn’t make a stick and staple coach worth buying, imo.
But warranty length is more about accruing for claims ahead of time than construction choices, and length is the main multiplier, and the accountants just add to the price to cover longer lengths. I’d rather buy a quality coach with a short warranty and pocket the savings.
Especially since warranty service is so much worse (scheduling etc) than regular service work.
You yourself have pointed out well made coaches with short warranties and poorly made ones with multiple year warranties. I’d rather buy the former and don’t believe it reflects while quality but just a less inflated price.
👍🏽
one thing to notice is that on the zion, the front and rear bumper are painted for a cleaner look
Neil, It will be intersting to hear you compare a 9.6 gal. black tank on the Roadtrek's (with no black tank flush) with the Hymer 4.6 gal. cassette toilet. Two suggestions: (1) make sure you include the ability to "option" a second cassette to carry and as use if needed. If capacity is really a concern, Hymer gives the ability to double it, right? (2) Users can thoroughly clean out a cassette, but not so much a black tank with no flush.
love this idea! thanks so much for sharing!
Great idea to do a comparison, especially on the cost. Very helpful for newbies. But I am guessing these are US prices? I saw a PW Ascent, 2017 listed at a local dealer. When I asked about the price (online), I was given just the MSRP which was $158K! The dealer did not give me their price. I have not yet responded because I am still in shock as to how expensive this is. I was thinking maybe 100K tops but would prefer to spend around 80 ish.
For 2020 and the new Roadtrek, I didn’t see a Simplicity as one of its models. Can you confirm that the Simplicity is no longer available for 2020? Also, the new warranty for Roadtrek is 2 years. If you were going to hold another competition, how would the Roadtrek Zion SRT compare to the Travato or Thor Sequence/Tellaro. Also, has the company in Quebec that makes the Panoramic found an a East Coast distributor? That may be my favorite Promaster design but I’d like to know how long I can expect to wait. Thanks, Neil!
they’re under new ownership so their model lineup changed
Hi Neil. Thanks for your informative reviews. I'm a subscriber and "Like" your videos. It's 2019, so shouldn't the entry level vans should have Back-up cams and a good fan in the bathroom?! #BASIC Also, I don't eat food that's been cooked in a Microwave (plus they use a ton of power), so I'd prefer a convection oven, so I will try to swap that out on the one I buy (if it doesn't have it).
Many 2019 entry-level camper vans don't even have a recessed stove or sink with a cover so you can actually use the counter-space or positive locking doors & cabinets. Who designs these things? ;)
I've been seriously looking at both of these, but now I think the Hymer Aktiv 1.0 is a better buy. The bed has to be able to get out of the way and turn into a couch or fold up Murphy-bed style.
I have some BIG questions:
WHY are Class B "motorhomes" SO EXPENSiVE in the USA (in respect to average worker's salaries and minimum wages).?!
The Dodge Promaster Chasis is just a basic box van that camper conversion companies use to build with and the conversion companies (Roadtrek, etc.) should be getting good wholesale pricing on. Since these conversion companies are doing assembly-line type build outs (and not 1-off custom), they should be getting components cheaply as well, so they shouldn't need to charge $80k + for an "entry-level" camper van. I shouldn't need to take out a home mortgage to pay for a vehicle that looses value over time (based on model year and number of miles driven), while a real home can gain value over time (gain equity).
WHY ARE THERE SO FEW CLASS B CAMPER-VANS AVAILABLE? (currently). When I spoke to a lender about financing for a van, he had to ask about why I wanted to buy a van like this and we got into a discussion. Most people are stuck at a desk job that they don't like and want to be on the road, going to beautiful places in nature and these vans are a great solution. So why aren't more available at better prices? The high prices and lack of availability are why so many people are making their own DYI funky-camper vans and going to the bathroom in a bucket or a gas station. Right? What gives? I live in San Francisco and it seems that my main dealer options are in Mesa, AZ, Las Vegas, and in the Seattle area. Plus, we've got a very SERIOUS HOUSING ISSUE in the Bay Area and beyond that is forcing people to live out of campers. That's another issue, but the fact that there should be a demand should drive competition, lower prices, and improve quality. Someday I'm sure we'll have all-electric vans with very high-tech TESLA Lithium Ion batteries, but then again PG&E is having to shut down the grid to prevent fires.....THANK YOU for your reply. -Phil
Thank you, very helpful for newbies! But are these US prices? I was shocked by the price of a PW Ascent, 2017 on a local lot, when I enquired and was given the MSRP of over $158K. Way over what I want to spend.
all prices in US dollars. wow, I should sell my 2017. I'll sell it for $120k! LOL
@ Mel:
...you don't pay MSRP. No one does.
-- BR
Bill Redding Thank you. I did think it odd that the dealer did not offer his price. No way I would offer the MSRP!
Neil, Thanks for the reviews. Since all four of the contestants are built on the Promaster I have one question. Have you noticed if the driver's seating position and leg room/length to the pedals is the same across all coach builders using the Promaster? I have sat in the driver's seat in an Aktiv and a Travato and both seemed short and a bit strange. I am not that tall but have long legs and my knee gets hung up on the back side of the steering wheel when shifting my foot from the gas to brake pedal. This is something I have not experienced in the Transit or Sprinter. Thanks
Yes I've noticed that the seating position is pretty much the same on all of them. the steering wheel is at an odd angle but I'd likely get used to that. the only big difference between them is if there's something behind the driver's seat which would block the seat from reclining or moving back. The CrossFit doesn't have anything behind but many others do.
Love the head-to-head comparisons in bracket form. The problem is point valuation. The simplicity and price of the Simplicity is alluring, but its electrical deficiencies when compared against the Zion are great. If you use these campers as mainly going from campground-to-campground (which is probably not how this type of camper is usually used), then the Simplicity is a big winner. If we're talking boondocking, then the comparison tends to bring the Zion's electrical strengths more into focus. What is the value of an almost-always-legal 19.7 ft chassis to an urban boondocker? Massive, but not as much to the out-in-the-boonies camper. It will be interesting to see how that and the 9.6 gallon black tank compares in the final because that should be a severe point deduction to a boondocker of any stripe.
you can get the Zion. if you value solar then just add the solar into the price but the Simplicity would still win. Even at base model pricing the Simplicity wins because it is $20k less expensive and only gives up an outside shower. Since this competition is on price that's the main factor. if we do another comparison on a different axis then the Simplicity likely wouldn't win.
To evaluate value, the first thing, IMO, is that you would have to determine how you will be using the vehicle and your priorities. Then compare your priorities to values
yep there's no one size that fits all. my videos are about helping people understand the differences between coaches. the scoring is more for fun. I think you have the right idea by knowing what you want. hopefully my videos help you see the varying strengths and weaknesses of every coach.
Neil, I disagree with your selection. You seem to be basing it on price alone- not apples to apples! After messing with the manual awning on my pop-up, the power awning on the Zion alone makes it my winner (not to mention all of the other options). Just my humble opinion!
many thanks for sharing your thought Steve. I respect your choice. I hope the competition nature of my head to heads don't get too much in the way of what the videos are really all about and that's giving out useful information about the various rigs. the competition is more of just entertainment.
Affordability only gets you what you pay for.
Each video gets better! Nice work 😎
thank you very much Zen!
How about a "battle" between the Aktiv 2.0 and something comparable? (hint hint). : )
noted!
@@Ultramobility Like the Aktiv 2.0 to the ZION longer length version? They have a 3500 Zion with twin beds, not sure if they have a sofa one. Either against the Aktiv 2.0 would be good. I've heard that the Aktiv 2.0 is a good value.
Agree. Compare the Activ 2.0 with a longer Zion.
I wasn't aware that the length coincides with the weight. Can the 2500 come in extra long or extended?
Are there RV manufacturers using the 3500 extended?
I have noticed with the Ford Transit,the 150 doesn't come in high roof extended. But the 250 does.
This information is important and the weight capacity as well. Now I'm thinking about the other Promaster models. I will have to back and review.
Thank you Neil for this video.
hi there. Ram has 3 different lengths: the 1500 which is 17'9", the 2500 which is 19'6" and the 3500 which is 20'11". All have the exact same engine specs. just length changes. the weights are more determined by the coach builder and what they're putting inside the coaches. less to do with the length of the van. make sense?
@@Ultramobility The wheel base followd too or are there options? Are all 3500 159 extended? You have made some good videos pointing out the difference. You have the Sprinter 144 and you've explained why. The floorplan is an important detail. The Travato had 2 floorplans. I don't remember the size Promaster.
Maybe you could mention in your video the models with sizes of RoadTrek,Hymer,Winnebago and Pleasure Way. All Promaster. I always like interior dimensions and comparisons. What are the actual size differences in the bathrooms in the Promaster models? This may help in decision making.
I really don't see how you can rate the Simplicity above the Zion when the Simplicity cannot have Solar Fitted or Lithium batterys. Also why say options added to the Zion which a prospective buyer might not buy affects the score. It would make more sense to compare both models in their standard[no added optoions] form. As a fun review just before Xmas fine but as a serious comparison not so much. I like the way you present your reviews though.
Either base it on standard base pricing in which case the simplicity SRT would win since it’s close to $20,000 less expensive than the zion srt. That episode would be around 30 seconds in length and not much value to viewers. Or, you do it the way I did it and list out and give points for every available option that is not available on the other but then compensate for price since this is an affordable assault. And when you do that The Simplicity SRT wins again. The latter way gives you the same result but with a lot more information that is valuable to the viewer.
Why not just 1 point for each $10,000 difference? Then the outcome would be exactly opposite. Subjective scoring. Still, keep the great videos coming!
Yep Subjective scoring. Just like Olympic judges. Since this is a competition about affordability it made sense to way points more toward lower prices. But that’s just me if it we’re a competition on luxury the scoring would be different.
Fun, but the scoring system is quite arbitrary.
Pretty much.
Do the lithium batteries effect the cost over the lifetime of the rig? Do they help lower the operational costs and therefore are a long-term benefit?
hi Barbara. lithium batteries biggest benefit are that they allow you to discharge faster and deeper and charge up faster than lead acid batteries. they don't really help to lower operating costs. they are also less heavy and smaller in size but they need to generally be installed inside the van because they don't like to be charged in below freezing temperatures (that takes up valuable space) and they add up front cost.
@@Ultramobility thank you so much for explaining that to me!
Simplicity as a 72k MSRP but did you add in the options on the Simplicity like you did on this ion
yes. only options that are not available on the other. in this case the rear sofa bed. that is the only option on the simplicity srt that is not available on the zion and for which it received a point.
@@Ultramobility well if you wanted to do it correctly the Simplicity should have only gotten two points because the difference was not 30,000
Ok
@@Ultramobility sorry I meant 4 points instead of 6
I guess I'm puzzled by your assertion every other single class B RV review channel is sponsored or otherwise compensated by manufacturers. Are they disclosing that on their websites or something? They certainly aren't making that clear in their videos. Perhaps a video on who is getting paid would be nice.
I shouldn't really call them out in a video but two: RV Lifestyle with Mike and Jennifer Wendlend and We're the Russos are both sponsored by Roadtrek/Hymer.
They do not disclose their affiliation with the manufacturers. I directly asked RV Living who is compensated by Road Trek and they acknowledged this on a live chat.
@@Ultramobility I understand RUclips is sensitive about anything that might be construed as bullying or sharing non public information. But the lack of disclosure by compensated reviewers/vloggers is frustrating and widespread across all of RUclips. I don't have a problem with people making money but they need to be more transparent.
Steve, I completely agree. I have been frustrated that some of these channels do not disclose to viewers their affiliation with their sponsors. They have reviewed RVs without disclosing their affiliation. they give positive reviews to their sponsor's products without a clear indication that they're sponsored. it's a real shame and disservice to RUclips viewers. When they're called on it they get defensive and ugly. It's unfortunate.
Doesn’t the Zion offer a twin layout?
I think that's just the regular Zion and not the Zion SRT...
I don't think that you realize when you say, "help me stay independent" it kind of implies that you can be bought. When you started this you told us this was a passion project. I think the people watching this would rather support someone who is having fun and doing what they love...then the guy you are pretending to be when you imply that if you don't get paid you might...take money from RV dealers to give them better free advertising? That's pretty immoral, and would take all the fun out of it.
Today my friend and I were discussing the difference between a tip and a bribe.
We decided a tip follows service. It's ok to welcome a tip, but not if you want to come off like you don't really need it. It's hard to do both. I would suggest that you get congruent with one or the other and then just go with that. Blessed Be!
Yeah I guess I hear what you're saying. I suppose I should just stick with saying "Help support independent RV reviews". I would never take money from RV manufacturers to give them better/free advertising. That is immoral but plenty of RV lifestyle channels here on RUclips do just that.
I don't know why in your pm you said that you "never said it was a passion project" as if that's something to be ashamed of. I am not going to go back to your first few videos and find where you said that, and I routinely remember things verbatim that make an impression on me, and that comment did. I thought it was endearing. That was back when you almost exclusively used the adjective "nice" and referenced your specific RV in every video, because that was your comfort zone. You have expanded and created a quality channel. There is no shame in inviting a tip.
Funny . I took away points for a powered awning .
interesting. hard to find a manual awning any more on a class b.
I concur. A manual awning is better than a powered one. Less cost, minimal or no repair costs, easy and quick to operate. Similarly, I prefer manual seat adjusters to powered units.
Only barbarians eat eggs with ketchup.
??
Ultramobility 15:10 in your video.
hmmm the video is only 15:09 in length...
Uh.. I meant 6:30. :)
LOL - I see it now! you sure do spot the details!
I beg to differ, ZION should be the winner as it offers so many more options which Simplicity cannot offer. I would rather marry a woman who is good looking, great cook, excellent host and has a cushy job vrs just a good looking one. Sorry man.
Yep everyone has their opinion. This is the Affordable Assault challenge however...
No solar for the Simplicity! Not good at all.
they're keeping it "simple"!
That's no sense 6 points
??
@@Ultramobility 6 points for the price is not sence, looks like you are pushing it to win no matter what. I understand price was really important but this was not a fair evaluation.
Outstanding Times It’s the affordable assault! What do you expect??