Marauders have so many good ones lol, like the ones where they fall apart in chunks like they've been hit with a lightsaber. The best is when they get hit by a Lurker barrage then their corpse gets ripped up even more by the spikes. You can't make SC1 then not have fantastic gore in the second one.
I never knew "air blockers" were a thing but I always thought it'd be cool to limit air units movement in certain maps/areas. Not too much, but here and there might be interesting
Yea, you gotta be careful with them. Air units have way more basic A to B straight line pathfinding. So they can easily get trapped behind too many air blockers that are clustered together.
8/10 (influenced by Lowko probably) 2/10 (way too easy to defend lots of bases) 7/10 (it looked way too similar to Golden Wall, which was a map i liked though) 6/10 (the triangle base is a little bit too much)
I rate that 2nd map 2 / 10, very boring gameplay incentives. I think that maybe pushes a player to go long distance options like tempest, long range libs or broodlords, but very boring overall
So forgive me if this is a totally stupid idea, but would the pocket base on the second map be better if it had speed zones instead of slow zones? It seems like the slow zones make a safe spot even safer, would it be better if they made it less safe or would that just be exchanging one bad for another?
Yeah in the iterated version (which is what would go to ladder) I removed the inhibitor zones Speed zones would be a bit too good for terran in general, but it's much better without them. In the iterated version I also slightly reduced the main (which also buffs air units), and increased the area around the natural so it's less cramped (this also helps blink stalkers which can now blink into the natural from the forward base) The map is designed to promote less viable strats and promote dropping so I feel like it can make good games when the players get a better feel for the map (ByuN played lots of good games on this map, though herO just didnt seem to know how to play the map) The map has made some cool games, but this was def not one of them lol
15:28 "im gonna give it a 9/10" *watches the entire terran army explode* "GG" Just the slight sigh you heard him let out before the deadpan GG is sooo funny XD
I like those hallucs. I don't see halluc colossus the often, I guess? And the reinforcing zealot warp-ins at 10:58 with a flanking warp prism (?), and warping in again to try and clean up the remaining marauders.
Is there any way to get the environment involved besides clearing a path? I would like to see ways to either create impassable areas. Or environmental traps that can destroy or trap units.
1- 9/10 Pretty, and uses the horizontal mirror formula I like a lot. 2- 0/10 As almost everyone has said, turtle play for days. 3- 9/10 Really cool concept, the south side feels like "another zone", like a shadow area. 4- 4/10 Wanky ahh bases (the pseudo pocket + the triangle). The triangle base seems zerg favored as they could push creep farther faster, and well, zerg. Also walling the natural seems like hell for PvZ 12-Pools. Also, the main+natural+pocket seems easily protectable with a couple of missile turrets against prisms.
I love the idea of a restorative shrine in SC2. Blocking it from air units is a neat feature as it would completely nullify the risk of using it. Being able to heal up some Zealots, Colossi, and/or Ultras seems really neat to me. Would all depend if it would be used tho. Love the vids Lowko! Take care!
Yeah, I actually like that map. I think it would be interesting to watch games on. I do agree that it needs some tweaking before it goes into the pool, but it wouldn’t be hard to narrow that entrance into the natural and fix the triangle base. The semi-pocket base is interesting, but I think it would be better on a rush map - it would make for some interesting response choices to say a canon rush.
A good map does three things 1. Does anyone die to mindless aggression (no workers into spawning pool)? If so veto 2. Is the mid game playable? By that if there is a singular race, with one strategy that will win 90% of the time. Then veto 3. If it always comes to the same skytoss showdown late game, with no chance of variance. Then veto Map 1 was good, it could be put into the pool, but the rest I'd steer clear of. I'd really like a an almost next door spawning point, but the spawning points are separated by an impassable area, so you have to go around to get to the opponent(including air). Just expanding outwards on the map, til you reach a turning point.
Moonwater - 9/10 loved the Visuals and "Shared" Golden Sacred Isle - 5/10 too big and "save" El Dorado - 8/10 loved the Visuals and Layout Atlantis - 6.5/10 Diffrent, a bit too large Btw: Love ur Videos Lowko, just got back in to watching SCll, thank u for the Entertainment Sir!
@@jasonlynch282 I know you are being sarcastic but hey, I like it. Can some one mention the map creators (or Wardi) here? At the very least we'll get to see it in the next TLMC.
Had a sudden idea for a map while listening to you talk about design. Have a map like at the top of a huge skyscraper, and the two bases are in the middle of the map, both of them, but doodads between them block pathing and line of sight so they're still obstructed (and of course far enough away to be out of range of things like creep tumors and shield overcharge). Their position at the center of the map means the expansions will see their bases spread outward and then their attack paths will be some sort of curve around the top or bottom.
great idea, but would require a lot of air blockers. Also you would have to consider the range of the tempest and siegetank. Another Base idea I had a long time ago, was both parties start in the top corners (left/right) on a high level, this goes around the map from the top left, to the bottom left, then bottom right and up to the top right, with bases in between. The next lower level would fill 1/3 or 1/2 (Depending on aloud levels)of the U-Shape from the bottom up, with a base for each player. This Repeats until the U is filled. You would have ramp going from the edge-bases to the middle bases covering 1 to 3 Layers, So that a ramp from the main base down to the lowest level would exist. At the Start of the Game all Levels below the highest would be filled by lava, which recedes over time, allowing axes to more bases as time goes by. I would suggest one recide every 4 to 5 minutes, maybe shorter or longer. The lava would have the same properties like the lava in the coop mission, which also randomly damages air units. This would result in a very long rush distance, which becomes shorter as the game progresses, and it would open up a lot of attack paths towards opponents bases.
We need more lowko map rating, enjoying the rants on strategy lowko Map rating Map 1: 8.5/10 (standard good map, maybe add more gold bases) Map 2: 1/10 (imba messy turtle map, defo without playtesting) Map 3: 8/10 (interesting strategy/layout: risky/safe route, more walls to gold bases + add speed zones to safer path?) Map 4: 5/10 (playable, but too gimmicky and hard to defend)
Yea on that second map, it looks like Protoss' best strategy would be to go skytoss against terran. Those tempests needed to come out a lot sooner cuz with all those choke points and all those defensible locations... ground units dont look like they'd be able to do much at all against a turtle terran
Alright, Zerg player here, AM GM: 1. Moonwater, ZVP 8/10, ZVT 6/10. pretty mediocre map, nothing too crazy, although I don't like the shared base, huge advantage for Terran. 2. Sacred Isle, ZVALL 0/10. Late game for Ladder-Zerg like me who has about 250 apm is hell. Narrow entrance, too many vision blockers (hard time to scout other player's army movement), Middle base placements are questionable. 3. El Dorado, ZVP 7/10, ZVT 6/10. Same issue, Terran has strong advantage to start a pretty safe base on the bottom, or cheese. 4. Atlantis, ZVP 9/10, ZVT 7/10. I feel like the entrance need 3 structures to block completely, so win for Zerg. Gimmicks are fine, love to see new stuffs in SC2 as long as it won't kill the game easily. Losing points for ZVT because there are many attacking angle from Terran on this map, as well as too many choke points on the map as well. The triangle base is okay, i don't think there are many people gonna take it? maybe take it when you behind so you can have a econ boost and do an allin? single gas is perfect for a roach allin lol.
I think I've watched every game that's been posted from the current TLMC and yeah, El Dorado is so sick. That one with the gold pocket 3rd that's not really a true pocket 3rd is really badass too, I can see how it would allow Terran specifically to get ahead on gas by just flying a CC over the gold minerals but realistically they won't do that, if they were prone to letting it hang out like that they wouldn't be playing Terran, and once it's mined out there's more opportunities for aggression so it can only cause things to escalate as the game progresses.
You saw the game. It's far too well entrenched from all of the demonstrated angles. Perhaps the only thing Hero could have done differently would be a much earlier skytoss transition.
While I mostly agree with your rankings... I just wanted to add that I love these games so much, seeing how seasoned professionals fumble through new territory with expert skill is just an absolute treat. New map videos are always a favourite of mine... another good reminder that our favourite players are still human!!
I think pocket bases should be off 4th base to essentially put major value in 4th base as you'll be cut off from defending that 5th base if 4th is killed. But these two bases are far from main leaving that open if you focus on those expansions.
Map 1 I really liked it 9/10 Map 2 Was not a fan as well for same reasons of too much going on...I get wanting to provide more options but I have seen too many times when once the optimal path is made it is just clutter as well as making it basically force air combat 5/10 Map 3 I like this one, but I think the mineraled off section felt too big 7/10 Map 4 I don't mind this one as much since the pocket base has to be worked for I also don't mind the idea of not being able to use the healing for air units since early game oracles would be far more deadly. Also the wall off looked fine to me so 8/10 these were my thoughts while watching
First map is a 10/10 if only cause it looks so pretty. It really set the vibe of it's name Moonwater really well. Second map seems like it would just devolve into skytoss every game cause Tempest seem like the only way you could ever assault that to begin with. Maybe salvegable if all the speed/slow zones where removed. Third one seems rough for Zerg but overal looks promising. Atlantis could be a really good map if put in the oven a bit more. Love the healing shrine idea though.
My thoughts after watching this video. First I like seeing these wild maps get a good range of creativity whether the maps work is another thing so in that case I think Map number 2 should get a higher rating. Second I had a thought that I've forgotten about so scratch it, and finally I think a player like an SoS would thrive on these wild maps.
Tbh starcraft 2 needs even ore new stuff, the game became pretty lame and is mechanically drained out. Most changes are minial and boring The game changes to little imo and became pretty boring
@@ProfibobWot Yeah, this was the game that introduced everyone to lava rising in Wings of Liberty... but they somehow managed to make ladder as uneventful as it is possible, for whatever reason
@@jesusbarrera6916 I'm sorry, and with all due respect, but if being competitive means being a one-trick pony and trying out only strategies that work in a consistent terrain/scenario instead of adapting your strategy to small changes then it's hard to call that competitive and not catering to a stale meta
@@aloe7794 oh I am sorry man, yeah let's just put mounts in the middle of football stadium now shall we, that'll "spice up the meta" look if you want to live another reality go ahead, don't bother me with really dumb scenarios
For Moonwater I´d say a 8/10 pretty solid after all For Sacred Isle i was at first for a 5/10 but after watching the protoss failing multiple times i say it more of a 2 or 3/10 For El Dorado i like the Golden Wall Vibes as well a 9/10 For Atlantis i like the 2nd "natural" choice there with the Rocks/Mineral block, the 3rd seems a bit too much tbh. But the healing zone can be very interesting a 7/10 at first glance.
I like the way Patches thinks, he wants to force the players to think beyond "AC beats BD, so I must make EG", he wants players to consider where to expand AND when to expand, and to consider avenues of attack really carefully.
What I would like to see being featured on an sc2 map is an all rich and gold map with maybe only rush features and I would call it "the darkness" or "the scar" maybe "dark scar" so it would be named after two aggressive pro players
Has any Mapmaker considered to make the main base a gold base or at least a base with an rich vespene geyser? It could change the often similar early game... or would the pros veto it because it changes too much? Btw Moonwater looks pretty good but i'd like to see a few more games before I can rate the maps.
i dont play starcraft but in the second map, being able to turtle that well and also having like the 'back door' be like having a built in way to help protect against drops seems way too much
2nd map Is a 0, the chokepoints And minerals once Terran turtles up are almost impossible for Zerg to break so the go to would be to fight middle of the map and who trades better with boring nimbling of workers for 20min at least, the los bushes should be creating a narrow corridor of vision kinda in a Z formation if you draw an imaginary line to connect them and then between the haste zone would be cool to see cause this over here is some type of “ambush” setup but then again Terran has scans… oh and as I continued watching: THE LIBERATOR ZONE IS BIG ENOUGH TO COVER WHOLE FIGHT AREA IN SO MANY PLACES ITS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS
I agree, The map is perfect for how I play as an aggressive terran. Just need it a little smaller and take away the slow down zones for drops. ether way 9/10 map for me.
The 2nd map would be fun to play in the low levels to give the chance to those who struggle to get to late games the opportunity to do so but it doesn’t belong in high level play. Maybe the ladder maps should be divided by rank. New maps for grandmasters. And trickle down the rest. These kind of maps for bronze, silver and gold.
So map no 2 got me wondering if there is a benefit to having maps in the tournament pool that heavily favor one faction, just to make mirror-match-ups more interesting...
I rarely comment, but on that second map, you're absolutely right. It's way too turtle-friendly. It's something I'd expect a player to make who gets frustrated by run-bys and doesn't deal with harassment well. This map makes all of those so much harder to do and so much easier to defend. You could say it's "macro game friendly," but it comes at the expense of the early game. It doesn't matter how pretty the map is if the game play on it is a poor experience. If the goal is to promote early air, the map maker needs to take those slow zones protecting the pocket base off. Can you imagine trying to play zerg on this map?
Pocket base is less of a influence if 4th is wide open. Its not that important if map has pocket base its more important how many bases you can easly defend. Btw we all know what type of maps Lowko likes. Big wide open maps with hard to defend bases preferably with some golden minerals or rich gas.
Idbecoolif there were maps with physical hazards, I.E a map on a contested planet where patches of the map are filled with flak explosions that would damage air units passing through
9/10 in love with this map 1/10 unplayable with zerg and protoss and make some long ass game with no moove 6/10 really cool concept but a litle early oriented And 9.5/10 love the healing shrine with a lot of risk the poket are meh but better than the other one the triangle are good but daaamn the map are big
Moonwater: 9/10 I love the "shared" base Sacred Isle: 3/10 don't really like the "turtlelability" as well El Dorado: 6/10 I wish the game would've lasted longer, but I want to see the mineral/rock wall in action, although I have mixed feeling on that Atlantis: 5/10 I'm curios about the healing shrine, but don't like how wide the natural is.
I think the issue with map 2 is that it's trying too hard to control how the match works. I like the site blockers with the speed boosts, but the slowdown zones to prevent drops and the lack of dead space is basically building defense into the map instead of making the player defend. Same with the gold minerals and choke points. I think it'd be a good map if the middle was more interesting, if some of the bases extended to the enemy more, and got rid of the built in defense.
Ranking: 2>4>1>3 map. so in map names:sacred isle > atlantis > moonwater >> El dorado sacred isle is a nice defensive map, which hinders aggressive plays, and let's you easily defend against early aggression. The funnels after the 3 third base are to small. Atlantis is a nice open map, so that it's easy to surround and swarm your opponent. The space for protecting the second base is too wide, which makes it hard to defend and allows early aggression. The Healing pool is a nice idea for ground units. Maybe it should be part of the second base to allow for easier defence while having a wide entry. Moonwater looks like a standard map with a little nice gimmick, of having an uneven number of bases, and back doors into the third base. El Dorado, is a clone of goldenwall. I'm not a fan of unreachable space, in which i can't follow the enemy after he attacked to finish him of. The access can only be granted via the second base up north, which is a bad timing. you would have to run in a whole cycle to catch the enemy. i would prefer having a third base in between the dead zone and the first base.
Only ever got to diamond 1 as random, so take this with a grain of salt: Moonwater 9/10 - great map. I think it could be made into the best map after these pro games have been played on it. Always enjoy maps that are as dynamic as that. Sacred Isle is tough to rate. I will just toss a 5/10 on it and say poor execution of a solid idea. It is exactly what Lowko said. Too large of a map and too easy to turtle. Take away one of the top and bottom expands for either side, squeeze the sides together making them have to fight for the top left and bottom right while also widening the attack paths to the other bases with the newly made space. Make the slow zones near the pocket natural speed zones (or just remove the zones), so that area is actually vulnerable to drops/air units. The slow zones make the attack path too obvious and the retreat terrible. Could turn into a cool drop heavy, macro style map with fast ground based counter attacks. Those might not make it a 9/10 like Moonwater (sick map), but it might make it less of a turtle map and make it feel balanced for all three races. That or at least possible for any race other than Terran to get a drop in and out on the pocket natural. El Dorado 8/10 - I like this one a lot. Great map art and layout. The heavy focus on the bottom of the map can make for some interesting games with either a fight over the bottom of the map or seeing what happens when someone decides to hide some structures up top. Not as dynamic as Moonwater, but looks great. Atlantis 7/10 - With some fine tuning of the mixed mineral bases, shrines and choke points it could be a very balanced map. It also has enough going on with the destructible rock paths and shrines to make it slightly more interesting than the more basic competitive maps. Not much, but it's nice to see 'new' things in SC2. Again, I have nowhere near the understanding of a pro player on how a SC2 map should be balanced, but I am happy to see some 'new' ideas being put in.
disencourging drops is a really unfun thing, as annoying as it can be and game winning and how much i; a zerg player hates losing their hive, its still more fun to suddenly drop your opponent or do any sort of 2-3 hit punches or force opponent to scramble around. friendly reminder of how awesome doom drops are and how much some terrans love them :p
I agree with your opinion of map 2, as a massively passive player, I don't win many online games. Maps like this reward passive play and that doesn't make better players.
1st map - 7/10 I dont see any problems with it yet but I want to see more of it first 2nd map - 4/10 3rd map - 7/10 same reason with the first map 4th map - 6/10 better than map 2 but not as good as the others. 5th map - 5/10
First map seems to favor Terran very much, island and looks like there are a lot of good places for siege tanks. not a fan. 2nd map looks like a Turtle map with pocket bases. not a fan. 3rd looks good. 4th just feels wrong.
Its been like 4 months since the new patch kicked in and still no cast on 2vs2 maps lowko 😓 personally I’m so disappointed with the maps, I’m really curious what’s your take on it! Thanks for the cast as usual !
First map is kinda good for Terran, a very greedy Terran can make fly the structure there immediately and protos and zerg will have problems with a terran with fast economy.
Personally, I like the second map. I think it would be very good for flying units and get away from ground. Hero should have used Tempest before Carriors. Lot of rush forward sky stuff.
I don’t like the second map though hero should of 100 percent got tempest first and sooner and air upgrades. Thing is tvz is going be like 80 percent win rate for terran
Map maker here, IMO this game on Sacred was one of the worse games to watch… That being said, I think all the other games I watched on Sacred were fun. Here I feel like herO just failed to play the map. The map is definitely more turtley than most, but it also promotes lots of different strategies and play styles 😊
So first map seems pretty good, isle base is in favor of T tho. Protoss probably doesnt have a hard time either but Ive got no clue for the Zerg. Second map seems too passive and way too many gimmicks, especially not a fan of those slow zones near the pocket bases. Also the second match was not very fun to watch due to the map design. as you said yourself, the first 10min nothing really happend...
13:30 when you know the game too well, you have a favorite death animation of a specific unit
It's so coooool!
What's funny is I wasn't looking at the screen when he said that and could already see a marauder getting sliced up in my head 😂
The zealots Look just awesome no matter what they kill i think realy
❤
Zealot is just a awesome Unit
When iam Big i wana be a zealot 😂
Marauders have so many good ones lol, like the ones where they fall apart in chunks like they've been hit with a lightsaber. The best is when they get hit by a Lurker barrage then their corpse gets ripped up even more by the spikes. You can't make SC1 then not have fantastic gore in the second one.
I never knew "air blockers" were a thing but I always thought it'd be cool to limit air units movement in certain maps/areas. Not too much, but here and there might be interesting
Air blockers were added to a lot of maps in HoTS when players started parking tempests in dead space to deny bases for free.
Yea, you gotta be careful with them. Air units have way more basic A to B straight line pathfinding. So they can easily get trapped behind too many air blockers that are clustered together.
8/10 (influenced by Lowko probably)
2/10 (way too easy to defend lots of bases)
7/10 (it looked way too similar to Golden Wall, which was a map i liked though)
6/10 (the triangle base is a little bit too much)
2nd map i wouldnt even bother playing
2nd map is legitimately taking the worst of every sc2 map design and jumbling it all together into a pile of garbage. 0/10
2nd map was the most boring SC2 game i ever saw/listened too: 1/10
That 2nd map (Sacred Isle) might be good for lower leagues. But agree it might be a bit too passive for casted pro games.
I rate that 2nd map 2 / 10, very boring gameplay incentives. I think that maybe pushes a player to go long distance options like tempest, long range libs or broodlords, but very boring overall
The 2nd map unquestionable forces turtle play.
Oe mike que escribes en ingles mas peruano q la papa
@@josero26531 Peruano bilingüe pe CAUSITA
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Mikeeeeee panaa
So forgive me if this is a totally stupid idea, but would the pocket base on the second map be better if it had speed zones instead of slow zones? It seems like the slow zones make a safe spot even safer, would it be better if they made it less safe or would that just be exchanging one bad for another?
Yeah in the iterated version (which is what would go to ladder) I removed the inhibitor zones
Speed zones would be a bit too good for terran in general, but it's much better without them.
In the iterated version I also slightly reduced the main (which also buffs air units), and increased the area around the natural so it's less cramped (this also helps blink stalkers which can now blink into the natural from the forward base)
The map is designed to promote less viable strats and promote dropping so I feel like it can make good games when the players get a better feel for the map (ByuN played lots of good games on this map, though herO just didnt seem to know how to play the map)
The map has made some cool games, but this was def not one of them lol
Now I wonder if on that second map the slow zones on the pocket base were speed zones instead. Would add a bit of risk to that base for sure
15:28
"im gonna give it a 9/10"
*watches the entire terran army explode*
"GG"
Just the slight sigh you heard him let out before the deadpan GG is sooo funny XD
I like those hallucs. I don't see halluc colossus the often, I guess?
And the reinforcing zealot warp-ins at 10:58 with a flanking warp prism (?), and warping in again to try and clean up the remaining marauders.
Is there any way to get the environment involved besides clearing a path? I would like to see ways to either create impassable areas. Or environmental traps that can destroy or trap units.
"herO should have used the all army hotkey" is such a funny line for those who know
1- 9/10 Pretty, and uses the horizontal mirror formula I like a lot.
2- 0/10 As almost everyone has said, turtle play for days.
3- 9/10 Really cool concept, the south side feels like "another zone", like a shadow area.
4- 4/10 Wanky ahh bases (the pseudo pocket + the triangle). The triangle base seems zerg favored as they could push creep farther faster, and well, zerg. Also walling the natural seems like hell for PvZ 12-Pools. Also, the main+natural+pocket seems easily protectable with a couple of missile turrets against prisms.
I love the idea of a restorative shrine in SC2. Blocking it from air units is a neat feature as it would completely nullify the risk of using it. Being able to heal up some Zealots, Colossi, and/or Ultras seems really neat to me. Would all depend if it would be used tho. Love the vids Lowko! Take care!
Yeah, I actually like that map. I think it would be interesting to watch games on. I do agree that it needs some tweaking before it goes into the pool, but it wouldn’t be hard to narrow that entrance into the natural and fix the triangle base. The semi-pocket base is interesting, but I think it would be better on a rush map - it would make for some interesting response choices to say a canon rush.
Colossi might be blocked by that airblocker :).
Freestyle maps are the best maps they often add some spicy moments and that makes sc2 more fun
Happy New Year Lowko, thanks for all the hard work of keeping us entertained.
About the maps, order of preference: 1st, 4th, 3rd and 2nd
A good map does three things
1. Does anyone die to mindless aggression (no workers into spawning pool)? If so veto
2. Is the mid game playable? By that if there is a singular race, with one strategy that will win 90% of the time. Then veto
3. If it always comes to the same skytoss showdown late game, with no chance of variance. Then veto
Map 1 was good, it could be put into the pool, but the rest I'd steer clear of.
I'd really like a an almost next door spawning point, but the spawning points are separated by an impassable area, so you have to go around to get to the opponent(including air). Just expanding outwards on the map, til you reach a turning point.
Moonwater - 9/10 loved the Visuals and "Shared" Golden
Sacred Isle - 5/10 too big and "save"
El Dorado - 8/10 loved the Visuals and Layout
Atlantis - 6.5/10 Diffrent, a bit too large
Btw: Love ur Videos Lowko, just got back in to watching SCll, thank u for the Entertainment Sir!
I've always wanted to see a base with 10 gold patches and 2 rich geisers positioned in a way that would force constant skirmishes.
Lets go 12 gold patches + 3 purple assimilators
Maybe in the center of the map in a pit. Call it impact crater. XD
@@jasonlynch282 I know you are being sarcastic but hey, I like it. Can some one mention the map creators (or Wardi) here? At the very least we'll get to see it in the next TLMC.
Had a sudden idea for a map while listening to you talk about design. Have a map like at the top of a huge skyscraper, and the two bases are in the middle of the map, both of them, but doodads between them block pathing and line of sight so they're still obstructed (and of course far enough away to be out of range of things like creep tumors and shield overcharge). Their position at the center of the map means the expansions will see their bases spread outward and then their attack paths will be some sort of curve around the top or bottom.
great idea, but would require a lot of air blockers. Also you would have to consider the range of the tempest and siegetank.
Another Base idea I had a long time ago, was both parties start in the top corners (left/right) on a high level, this goes around the map from the top left, to the bottom left, then bottom right and up to the top right, with bases in between. The next lower level would fill 1/3 or 1/2 (Depending on aloud levels)of the U-Shape from the bottom up, with a base for each player. This Repeats until the U is filled. You would have ramp going from the edge-bases to the middle bases covering 1 to 3 Layers, So that a ramp from the main base down to the lowest level would exist.
At the Start of the Game all Levels below the highest would be filled by lava, which recedes over time, allowing axes to more bases as time goes by. I would suggest one recide every 4 to 5 minutes, maybe shorter or longer. The lava would have the same properties like the lava in the coop mission, which also randomly damages air units.
This would result in a very long rush distance, which becomes shorter as the game progresses, and it would open up a lot of attack paths towards opponents bases.
I know this video is for the maps but herO has been playing amazingly this series
We need more lowko map rating, enjoying the rants on strategy lowko
Map rating
Map 1: 8.5/10 (standard good map, maybe add more gold bases)
Map 2: 1/10 (imba messy turtle map, defo without playtesting)
Map 3: 8/10 (interesting strategy/layout: risky/safe route, more walls to gold bases + add speed zones to safer path?)
Map 4: 5/10 (playable, but too gimmicky and hard to defend)
Yea on that second map, it looks like Protoss' best strategy would be to go skytoss against terran. Those tempests needed to come out a lot sooner cuz with all those choke points and all those defensible locations... ground units dont look like they'd be able to do much at all against a turtle terran
"Lowko: Hero should have used the all army hotkey, dude." - That one time he should have... :D
Alright, Zerg player here, AM GM:
1. Moonwater, ZVP 8/10, ZVT 6/10. pretty mediocre map, nothing too crazy, although I don't like the shared base, huge advantage for Terran.
2. Sacred Isle, ZVALL 0/10. Late game for Ladder-Zerg like me who has about 250 apm is hell. Narrow entrance, too many vision blockers (hard time to scout other player's army movement), Middle base placements are questionable.
3. El Dorado, ZVP 7/10, ZVT 6/10. Same issue, Terran has strong advantage to start a pretty safe base on the bottom, or cheese.
4. Atlantis, ZVP 9/10, ZVT 7/10. I feel like the entrance need 3 structures to block completely, so win for Zerg. Gimmicks are fine, love to see new stuffs in SC2 as long as it won't kill the game easily. Losing points for ZVT because there are many attacking angle from Terran on this map, as well as too many choke points on the map as well. The triangle base is okay, i don't think there are many people gonna take it? maybe take it when you behind so you can have a econ boost and do an allin? single gas is perfect for a roach allin lol.
I think I've watched every game that's been posted from the current TLMC and yeah, El Dorado is so sick. That one with the gold pocket 3rd that's not really a true pocket 3rd is really badass too, I can see how it would allow Terran specifically to get ahead on gas by just flying a CC over the gold minerals but realistically they won't do that, if they were prone to letting it hang out like that they wouldn't be playing Terran, and once it's mined out there's more opportunities for aggression so it can only cause things to escalate as the game progresses.
Honestly I like the second map! It's quite different and it allows for a variety of tricks to be used, different strategies.
You saw the game. It's far too well entrenched from all of the demonstrated angles. Perhaps the only thing Hero could have done differently would be a much earlier skytoss transition.
While I mostly agree with your rankings... I just wanted to add that I love these games so much, seeing how seasoned professionals fumble through new territory with expert skill is just an absolute treat. New map videos are always a favourite of mine... another good reminder that our favourite players are still human!!
I think pocket bases should be off 4th base to essentially put major value in 4th base as you'll be cut off from defending that 5th base if 4th is killed. But these two bases are far from main leaving that open if you focus on those expansions.
Thanks for casting. ^^
Reads about the shrine blocking off air units, immediately talks about Medivacs picking up units from them.
Map 1 I really liked it 9/10
Map 2 Was not a fan as well for same reasons of too much going on...I get wanting to provide more options but I have seen too many times when once the optimal path is made it is just clutter as well as making it basically force air combat 5/10
Map 3 I like this one, but I think the mineraled off section felt too big 7/10
Map 4 I don't mind this one as much since the pocket base has to be worked for I also don't mind the idea of not being able to use the healing for air units since early game oracles would be far more deadly. Also the wall off looked fine to me so 8/10
these were my thoughts while watching
First map is a 10/10 if only cause it looks so pretty. It really set the vibe of it's name Moonwater really well. Second map seems like it would just devolve into skytoss every game cause Tempest seem like the only way you could ever assault that to begin with. Maybe salvegable if all the speed/slow zones where removed. Third one seems rough for Zerg but overal looks promising. Atlantis could be a really good map if put in the oven a bit more. Love the healing shrine idea though.
I remember playing in a map with an iland base called Agrian valley, very interesitng concept back in the day
34:23 - Ram Ranch is under a siedge!
Hey Lowko! Big fan! Can you cast the herO vs heromarine from ESL masters? Its an abolute banger!!!
That last map looks fun, I'd like to see a few more matches in it.
Speaking of campaign missions, I just finished the campaigns yesterday and it was soooo good!!
My thoughts after watching this video. First I like seeing these wild maps get a good range of creativity whether the maps work is another thing so in that case I think Map number 2 should get a higher rating. Second I had a thought that I've forgotten about so scratch it, and finally I think a player like an SoS would thrive on these wild maps.
Healing pads in StarCraft II competitive? I would have never guessed
Tbh starcraft 2 needs even ore new stuff, the game became pretty lame and is mechanically drained out. Most changes are minial and boring
The game changes to little imo and became pretty boring
@@ProfibobWot Yeah, this was the game that introduced everyone to lava rising in Wings of Liberty... but they somehow managed to make ladder as uneventful as it is possible, for whatever reason
@@aloe7794 you cannot experiment with the competitive scene, otherwise it stops being competitive
@@jesusbarrera6916 I'm sorry, and with all due respect, but if being competitive means being a one-trick pony and trying out only strategies that work in a consistent terrain/scenario instead of adapting your strategy to small changes then it's hard to call that competitive and not catering to a stale meta
@@aloe7794 oh I am sorry man, yeah let's just put mounts in the middle of football stadium now shall we, that'll "spice up the meta"
look if you want to live another reality go ahead, don't bother me with really dumb scenarios
For Moonwater I´d say a 8/10 pretty solid after all
For Sacred Isle i was at first for a 5/10 but after watching the protoss failing multiple times i say it more of a 2 or 3/10
For El Dorado i like the Golden Wall Vibes as well a 9/10
For Atlantis i like the 2nd "natural" choice there with the Rocks/Mineral block, the 3rd seems a bit too much tbh. But the healing zone can be very interesting a 7/10 at first glance.
I like the way Patches thinks, he wants to force the players to think beyond "AC beats BD, so I must make EG", he wants players to consider where to expand AND when to expand, and to consider avenues of attack really carefully.
not being able to wall your natural as toss vs zerg (like on atlantis) will just mean every toss will veto the map.
9, 3, 6, 7 for me. Really enjoyed this cast
Wouldn't terran just fly a cc to the pocket bases?
el dorado is gorgeous, and moonwater is aestheticc.
I like how open atlantis is in the middle.
Woke up stupidly early, 4am, having my nice hot coffee, see almost a good hour upload by Lowko? Instantly click.
What I would like to see being featured on an sc2 map is an all rich and gold map with maybe only rush features and I would call it "the darkness" or "the scar" maybe "dark scar" so it would be named after two aggressive pro players
Has any Mapmaker considered to make the main base a gold base or at least a base with an rich vespene geyser? It could change the often similar early game... or would the pros veto it because it changes too much? Btw Moonwater looks pretty good but i'd like to see a few more games before I can rate the maps.
I like the idea of a mineral/gas boost at the very beginning.
It would serve as a quick-launch for the game.
i dont play starcraft but in the second map, being able to turtle that well and also having like the 'back door' be like having a built in way to help protect against drops seems way too much
2nd map Is a 0, the chokepoints And minerals once Terran turtles up are almost impossible for Zerg to break so the go to would be to fight middle of the map and who trades better with boring nimbling of workers for 20min at least, the los bushes should be creating a narrow corridor of vision kinda in a Z formation if you draw an imaginary line to connect them and then between the haste zone would be cool to see cause this over here is some type of “ambush” setup but then again Terran has scans… oh and as I continued watching: THE LIBERATOR ZONE IS BIG ENOUGH TO COVER WHOLE FIGHT AREA IN SO MANY PLACES ITS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS
Please cast one of your earliest SC2 games! If you have any saved! Bronze league hero + lLowko = all the wins!
I fast forwarded through the second game, It was like watching a cricket test match in the 80s
On the last map, 3 buildings plus a Stalker in the gap makes a wall.
Honestly that seems ok to me.
10/10 first map
2/10 second map - make it half the size and all the gimmicks would make it a fun watch (though pros would prolly hate it).
I agree, The map is perfect for how I play as an aggressive terran. Just need it a little smaller and take away the slow down zones for drops. ether way 9/10 map for me.
The 2nd map would be fun to play in the low levels to give the chance to those who struggle to get to late games the opportunity to do so but it doesn’t belong in high level play. Maybe the ladder maps should be divided by rank. New maps for grandmasters. And trickle down the rest. These kind of maps for bronze, silver and gold.
Surprised we’re getting videos everyday Lowko, not that I’m complaining of course. Just figured it’d be a bit too much. But keep up the great casts!
So map no 2 got me wondering if there is a benefit to having maps in the tournament pool that heavily favor one faction, just to make mirror-match-ups more interesting...
Meh how does that make TvT good ? No way to drop, tanks are completely broken on it. Shit gonna be air vs air and kinda random imho.
Maps that heavily favor 1 race are a good thing as long as all 3 races have one. Especially with a map pool of 9.
What lowko doesnt realise is that as an amazing bronze league player, I shall take that slide base by moving around my probe to that location💀💀
I rarely comment, but on that second map, you're absolutely right. It's way too turtle-friendly. It's something I'd expect a player to make who gets frustrated by run-bys and doesn't deal with harassment well. This map makes all of those so much harder to do and so much easier to defend. You could say it's "macro game friendly," but it comes at the expense of the early game. It doesn't matter how pretty the map is if the game play on it is a poor experience. If the goal is to promote early air, the map maker needs to take those slow zones protecting the pocket base off. Can you imagine trying to play zerg on this map?
Pocket base is less of a influence if 4th is wide open. Its not that important if map has pocket base its more important how many bases you can easly defend.
Btw we all know what type of maps Lowko likes. Big wide open maps with hard to defend bases preferably with some golden minerals or rich gas.
banger cast as always Lowko! keep up the good work :)
Idbecoolif there were maps with physical hazards, I.E a map on a contested planet where patches of the map are filled with flak explosions that would damage air units passing through
I hope we can have some Protoss map since Protoss player wins less than 10% prize in 2023😢
The 2nd map is really pasive that the only way to have a exciting game play is to go. AIR to AIR combat in the middle off the map 3.5/10
9/10 in love with this map
1/10 unplayable with zerg and protoss and make some long ass game with no moove
6/10 really cool concept but a litle early oriented
And 9.5/10 love the healing shrine with a lot of risk the poket are meh but better than the other one the triangle are good but daaamn the map are big
Moonwater: 9/10 I love the "shared" base
Sacred Isle: 3/10 don't really like the "turtlelability" as well
El Dorado: 6/10 I wish the game would've lasted longer, but I want to see the mineral/rock wall in action, although I have mixed feeling on that
Atlantis: 5/10 I'm curios about the healing shrine, but don't like how wide the natural is.
Can't wait to see Terrans rushing the Island
I think the issue with map 2 is that it's trying too hard to control how the match works. I like the site blockers with the speed boosts, but the slowdown zones to prevent drops and the lack of dead space is basically building defense into the map instead of making the player defend. Same with the gold minerals and choke points. I think it'd be a good map if the middle was more interesting, if some of the bases extended to the enemy more, and got rid of the built in defense.
Ya agree. I'm Terran and I hate that second map. Just cause I love watching balanced pro games. So we need balanced maps!
'Taking the triangle base will help defend the backdoor base' sounds like something else entirely.
Ranking: 2>4>1>3 map. so in map names:sacred isle > atlantis > moonwater >> El dorado
sacred isle is a nice defensive map, which hinders aggressive plays, and let's you easily defend against early aggression. The funnels after the 3 third base are to small.
Atlantis is a nice open map, so that it's easy to surround and swarm your opponent. The space for protecting the second base is too wide, which makes it hard to defend and allows early aggression. The Healing pool is a nice idea for ground units. Maybe it should be part of the second base to allow for easier defence while having a wide entry.
Moonwater looks like a standard map with a little nice gimmick, of having an uneven number of bases, and back doors into the third base.
El Dorado, is a clone of goldenwall. I'm not a fan of unreachable space, in which i can't follow the enemy after he attacked to finish him of. The access can only be granted via the second base up north, which is a bad timing. you would have to run in a whole cycle to catch the enemy. i would prefer having a third base in between the dead zone and the first base.
first 7,5/10 second 8/10 maybe 8,5/10 last one 9,5/10 due to new mechanic I love it
All of this maps have beautiful visuals! But I can't say that I like the gimmicks.
Mineral walls are gimmicky and I don't like them at all. Just use rocks ffs.
Yay another ByuN game!
Only ever got to diamond 1 as random, so take this with a grain of salt:
Moonwater 9/10 - great map. I think it could be made into the best map after these pro games have been played on it. Always enjoy maps that are as dynamic as that.
Sacred Isle is tough to rate. I will just toss a 5/10 on it and say poor execution of a solid idea. It is exactly what Lowko said. Too large of a map and too easy to turtle. Take away one of the top and bottom expands for either side, squeeze the sides together making them have to fight for the top left and bottom right while also widening the attack paths to the other bases with the newly made space. Make the slow zones near the pocket natural speed zones (or just remove the zones), so that area is actually vulnerable to drops/air units. The slow zones make the attack path too obvious and the retreat terrible. Could turn into a cool drop heavy, macro style map with fast ground based counter attacks.
Those might not make it a 9/10 like Moonwater (sick map), but it might make it less of a turtle map and make it feel balanced for all three races. That or at least possible for any race other than Terran to get a drop in and out on the pocket natural.
El Dorado 8/10 - I like this one a lot. Great map art and layout. The heavy focus on the bottom of the map can make for some interesting games with either a fight over the bottom of the map or seeing what happens when someone decides to hide some structures up top. Not as dynamic as Moonwater, but looks great.
Atlantis 7/10 - With some fine tuning of the mixed mineral bases, shrines and choke points it could be a very balanced map. It also has enough going on with the destructible rock paths and shrines to make it slightly more interesting than the more basic competitive maps. Not much, but it's nice to see 'new' things in SC2.
Again, I have nowhere near the understanding of a pro player on how a SC2 map should be balanced, but I am happy to see some 'new' ideas being put in.
Happy new year Lowko! Best health to you!
Now that i think about it the Protoss had a healing pool back in the day.
Good protoss player will sometimes flex by not going skytoss, even when they should.
if you flex too much you can sprain your arm.
disencourging drops is a really unfun thing, as annoying as it can be and game winning and how much i; a zerg player hates losing their hive, its still more fun to suddenly drop your opponent or do any sort of 2-3 hit punches or force opponent to scramble around.
friendly reminder of how awesome doom drops are and how much some terrans love them :p
I agree with your opinion of map 2, as a massively passive player, I don't win many online games. Maps like this reward passive play and that doesn't make better players.
Here we go 🎉
1st map - 7/10 I dont see any problems with it yet but I want to see more of it first
2nd map - 4/10
3rd map - 7/10 same reason with the first map
4th map - 6/10 better than map 2 but not as good as the others.
5th map - 5/10
First map seems to favor Terran very much, island and looks like there are a lot of good places for siege tanks. not a fan.
2nd map looks like a Turtle map with pocket bases. not a fan.
3rd looks good.
4th just feels wrong.
I was grossed out by the Monster Energy drink advertisement in game one but great series.
I want to see the reynor and showtime game you talked about hah.
Its been like 4 months since the new patch kicked in and still no cast on 2vs2 maps lowko 😓 personally I’m so disappointed with the maps, I’m really curious what’s your take on it! Thanks for the cast as usual !
First map is kinda good for Terran, a very greedy Terran can make fly the structure there immediately and protos and zerg will have problems with a terran with fast economy.
Personally, I like the second map. I think it would be very good for flying units and get away from ground. Hero should have used Tempest before Carriors. Lot of rush forward sky stuff.
I don’t like the second map though hero should of 100 percent got tempest first and sooner and air upgrades.
Thing is tvz is going be like 80 percent win rate for terran
Map maker here, IMO this game on Sacred was one of the worse games to watch…
That being said, I think all the other games I watched on Sacred were fun. Here I feel like herO just failed to play the map. The map is definitely more turtley than most, but it also promotes lots of different strategies and play styles 😊
They should have a map where you start with rich gold minerals and rich gas.
So first map seems pretty good, isle base is in favor of T tho. Protoss probably doesnt have a hard time either but Ive got no clue for the Zerg.
Second map seems too passive and way too many gimmicks, especially not a fan of those slow zones near the pocket bases. Also the second match was not very fun to watch due to the map design. as you said yourself, the first 10min nothing really happend...
Dang Lowko! Play the maps before condemning them! 🤣
First map: 10/10
Second map : 0/10
Third map 10/10
Fourth map 10/10
It has nothing to do with the fact of who won those maps.
Want your usual intro ... please don't deprive us of your great welcome.
Second map. Revelation and tempest... Solved
Yeah that 2nd map hurts as a Protoss...
great game!
Pocket base are Good for toss; easier to defend especially against terrat
14:00 idk ask harstem or someone, you have the number of a lot of proprotoss in your networking, i dont :v
"Moon Water" feels like some kind of scam.