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Maruki's calling card: To Takuto Maruki: Wishing excessively for everyone's happiness, you have committed the crime of creating a self-righteous reality. However, we did not dwell on this false happiness, we wish to move forward, by overcoming this pain. Therefore, we cannot accept the salvation you advocate. We will steal your distorted desires. We will take back our future. Signed, The Phantom Thieves of Hearts"
About the ambiguous fate of Akechi, someone on Tumblr edited that frame where he appears (lowering the brightness to see his face) and indeed, it's him. The guys in front of him also look exactly like the guys who were interrogating Joker. I don't think Shido's guys would've let their hitman go free so easily.
@@PhantomOtter Hey, I lost the link at this point (this was posted ages ago). But you can just do it yourself, just grab Photoshop o any other editing software.
I will say that Persona 5 Royal's ending is a lot more thought provoking to me than vanilla Persona 5. When I saw Persona 5's ending at 2019, it gave me hope to find a group and to find a way to have my own place in society, but it was just that. When I saw P5R's ending in 2020, it hit me like a truck. I heard the song over and over, and thought about what I experienced countless times, it made me realize that what I really wanted was to find a path that I can call my own, along with the people I love. And that it was okay to suffer and have my downs and ups, because I can't expect my life to be so stagnant all the time, eventually I have to move on, make my own choices and live the life I want to live. In a way, Akechi's words in 2/2 struck very deeply with me. His willingness to go down his own path no matter what, no matter how much it hurts him or the people around him, just so that it is *his* path, and not the one that another person made for him, was something that I didn't know I needed to hear. Choosing what someone expects I would like isn't the way I would like to live, and if the path I choose involves suffering then that's just something natural. Overall I prefer stories that don't show you a picture perfect happy ending, but the one that shows us how each person evolved and formed their own thoughts and decisions towards a better future. I like hopefulness, but I like it when it's one that shows you the reality of life with its losses and gains. Which is why Royal's ending showing you what each of the thieves lost and gained from their journey mattered so much to me. Because they still looked up and walked forward, no matter what.
Agree; narrative characteristics aside, Royal discussed tougher things. Also glad your takeaway from Akechi’s story was his willpower and individual self-respect, rather than the insane murderer part.
After I beat P5R and got the true ending I went to youtube to look up some of the other ones. One of the ones that hit me the hardest was where you agree to accept Maruki's false reality. In it, not only does everyone in the main cast get exactly the happy ending they thought they wanted, but the Phantom Theives all get to stay close together and happy forever. It's an ending that stings because not only is it the ending Maruki wanted but, on some small level, it's one the player likely wanted too. You want the best for these characters and to see them happy. You don't want the PTs to go their separate ways. Even though this game is practically longer than a semester in college, on some level you don't want it to end. But it has to end. All phases of life eventually reach a climax and pass away, making room for new experiences and people to enter your world. The trap of Maruki's offer is a happily ever after coupled with a life of stagnation. It's nice to see the characters in such a (seemingly) happy and carefree position and life, but it's tainted with the inescapable feeling that all of this is just wrong. As much as the characters and the player may have wanted things to turn out like this, the final test of the story arc is being willing to let go of them.
I played vanilla p5 before the release of Royal, and really digged the ending. It seemed "appropriate" and "satisfying", though it also felt "safe". Royal, on the other hand, challenges you to reflect about the P.T.'s actions and your own beliefs. Maruki is honestly a perfect final boss: a good person with good intentions that got misguided by trauma, and a character that feels insanely relatable. I honestly didnt want to fight him. Vanilla's ending might feel better in a vacuum, but Royal's ending lingers on your mind for longer. It feels more real, relatable and honest. Ps: I've been watching your videos for a while, but this is the first time I hear about your condition. I just want to say I admire your work and the effort you put in all your videos, despite the circumstances! :)
Excellent analysis. The only thing I want to add is that the P5 ending also has this angle of believing in humans, trusting that they _can_ build a future for themselves. After doing so much work to help humanity, Joker is faced with the awful truth that nobody ever wanted the PT's help. The way I see it, this realization makes Joker snap in the Bad Ending: he betrays and loses faith in humanity in response to it betraying _him_ , falling prey to the same corruption he fought against. Meanwhile, in the True Ending, Joker maintains his hopeful determination and faith that mankind can and will do better than Yaldabaoth thinks, in spite of confronting it at it's worst.
When you were talking about each PT's personal goals that they're working towards through the Confidant ranks and in post-game, it reminded me of a minor peeve I have with the game. Haru wants to run a cafe, or start a small chain cafe, and we never get the option to tell her to talk to Sojiro, a guy who literally is already doing that, who has a strong, open, honest relationship with all of the PTs. Any time she asks Joker for help or expresses frustration with anything, it's always something that Sojiro would be better equipped to help with. "I want to make better coffee." Talk to Sojiro, that's literally what he does. "I want to grow better veggies." Talk to Sojiro, he knows his veggies since they're a big part of his curry. He knows when they're good, and probably has some knowledge of how to grow them. "I want to be a better business leader as majority shareholder in Okumura Foods but I'm a high schooler and idk what I'm doing or who to trust." I'm a high schooler too, but you know who we know who runs a business? Sojiro, even though his business is smaller, he still has to know the basics of how businesses function and the things that need done. I'd imagine he's also not only trustworthy, but a pretty damn good judge of character, and can help her figure out who on the board is trying to manipulate her. Haru would be *so* much better prepared to achieve literally any of her goals if we had the option to convince her to hire Sojiro as a retainer. She doesn't need him all the time, and he wouldn't be available all the time due to running LeBlanc, but that's fine. There's no reason she can't have him "on call" for whenever she needs advice. She's got the money to afford his help, and he'd probably make more money doing that than running the cafe (not that he needs it). Not to mention, we know he has a huge soft spot for Joker and his friends, all she would have to do is say "Would you be willing to..." and he'd already be thinking "yes" before hearing what she was about to ask.
I think there some interaction between her and Sojiro during her confidant arc at the beginning I think. But when you finish it all, it's pretty much revealed she was using her problems as an excuse to hang with Joker.
@@sor3999 There was. One of the first things that happens in her confidant is that she says, "I grew some vegetables; I want Sojiro's opinion on them." And Sojiro says they're impressive as homegrown things, but not actually all that good. To Haru, Sojiro is first and foremost a potential customer, not a mentor.
I had a similar problem, but not with Haru-- Morgana. At any time, Joker could've taken Sojiro to a palace-- that's firmly established by the game. Anyone can enter the Metaverse so long as they're accompanied by someone with the app. Sojiro can't hear Morgana, because he's never been introduced to Metaverse Morgana. Understanding Morgana doesn't require a persona-- merely introduction to Morgana talking to alter their cognition. So at any time, Joker could've taken Sojiro into a palace for the sole purpose of allowing him to understand Morgana. He just doesn't, which seems really cruel to both Morgana and Sojiro.
@Dubiousmage On the other hand, Sojiro SUCKS at running a café-and admits it. Consider how few customers you ever see in Leblanc. The café has five booths and ten stools, yet we never see more than three customers at a time. Some days, you don’t see a single one from dawn ‘til dusk. He mentions prices at a few points, and it’s standard fare. Frankly, how the man’s affording to keep the lights on is beyond me! However, I still think Haru could have gained a lot from at least knowing the logistic ins-and-outs of a “how the hell does this break even” café from our man, Mr. Hoo Boy himself.
Persona 5 Royal's ending is just way more personal for me and hits way harder for me as well, I played through the Royal content when I needed to play it the most, while playing it I was dealing with a very treasured friend's (the very first friend I made in college) dropping off of college, I was trying my best to cope and move on with what happened for months, I was able to relate to Ann the most in Royal since her wish was just her being able to spend more time together with Shiho, I thought to myself, if I were in Maruki's reality I think the wish he'll grant me right now is me and my college friend still together in college. So yeah I'm definitely called out while playing through Royal lel. Then when I was about to finish Royal, on the part where they all rejected Maruki's reality, it really inspired me to also move on with what happened, seeing how everyone is prepared to face the harsh reality they're in really gave me the motivation to move on, and it really means a lot to me. I had to learn that people come and go the hard way and it's really depressing, but I guess there's always more opportunities to meet new people and form new connections in the future, and it's not like we're gonna stop being friends after that. Overall Royal's ending is just way too personal for me that's why I prefer it over Vanilla
Never fails to amaze me how you can break these games down to analyse their most notable elements, and communicate it concisely in a video like this. Really cool to listen to as always Lady! For the giggles, I decided to go for that bad ending on my playthrough, never felt so much regret for doing so. Reloaded for that friendship immediately! I'm somewhat indifferent on which ending is better, probably because I didn't get the chance to see P5R's first hand on my own playthrough, but I appreciate that Atlus even pumped in an extra 30 hours of content, and that they made Akechi in to something... oddly likeable in his own jerkish way.
Awww thanks so much TKN! I'm glad my points are getting across! I did the same thing! (I actually tend to go for the bad endings first in persona games LOL) I think seeing how much the bad endings fly in the face of each game's themes helps make the good endings just that much more meaningful. P5R VASTLY improved on Akechi compared to the original game since I got a whole new voluntary confidant. And the sheer talent and nuance of Robbie Daymond's performance really sold his character to me. Speaking of Robbie, super excited to hear him in a certain other game coming out in a couple months :P
The one thing you didn't mention was the nature of the choice to join the bad guy. In P5 it's ... there. You can join Yaldabaloth. But I don't think people do other than to see that ending. In P5R there is a genuine case for accepting Maruki's reality. It's the wrong choice, but it's a choice worth thinking twice about. Also the other part of the ending is the death of Goro Akechi - which has far far more weight in P5R even if you only make it to the P5 ending in P5R because he has a real social link. (Also Akechi shooting "Joker" in the head has a massive weight for the same reason in P5R when in P5 he was just the obvious traitor forced on us).
11:19 LV, I believe it’s more than just survivor’s guilt, it could also be an inferiority complex, self-loathing, possibly suicidal thoughts. Why else would Sumi run a red light on the street?
While I do agree with you that she did did seem to suffer those things, I feel that incident was more simple. Her complex hit a fever pitch, and she was desperate to flee from her sister (the source of her insecurities, and the resulting tunnel vision left her blind to her surroundings.
@@PhoenixBlazer39 right. Sumi deals with all that as well, but as you stated the biggest pain that she deals with is how she robbed her sister, who she thought was on a road to success and that when all was settled she didn't deserve that.
Man, I do appreciate the even-handedness of this analysis. I had a really hard time with Royal's ending, which broke some of my favorite things about the ending of vanilla P5, but time and space (and your trenchant discussion about thematic consistency, even if I do still argue that Royal seriously messes with the pacing of the extremely well-plotted Hero's Journey of the original game) have helped me appreciate it more. I read Royal's ending as a tragedy compared to the original, but there's a lot of merit to a good bittersweet tragedy, and this one is well-earned. Interestingly, I'm not sure if it would feel so very bitter to me if I hadn't loved vanilla P5's ending SO MUCH, and I don't think I'd have loved the original ending so much without my experiences with P3 and P4. Throughout the game, P5 feels so much like a thematic conversation with P3 and P4 to me (which is a whole separate essay)--but one thing audience members have learned across the series, if they've played through it all, is that there are rules to Persona games. Igor is your friend, you must gather up the power of your social links to defeat the god bent on destroying humanity, and the protagonist always, always leaves at the end. Those are the rules. Doesn't matter that you love your friends enough to seal away a god with those bonds, you still have to go home at the end. One of the best things about P5 is how it keeps to that formula but also messes with it both for and against the protagonist. The Yaldabaoth reveal wouldn't be half so impactful if we didn't know from the start that Igor was our friend. And the end of the game feels like such an impossible TRIUMPH, not just in the face of a year of rumors and ostracization and struggle, but in the face of the Great Seal falling asleep on a rooftop and the goodbye cries of everyone you love as you pull away on a train. The protagonist always leaves at the end and P5 is no different, but this time, THIS TIME, after three games, he's finally found and earned that loophole. He leaves, but he gets to take his friends with him. They've literally changed the game. At the end of Royal, you-the-protag sit on the train alone with your sleeping cat, still wearing your glasses-mask, with memories and the hope of text messages and the hint that maybe, MAYBE Akechi is still out there somewhere to keep you company. So Royal feels like a tragedy, after that--because you COULD have kept your friends. The end of vanilla P5 seems to represent a commitment to staying together even as they move forward to more mundane struggles. It could be argued that the Royal ending is more realistic, because after all, your friends were just going to go home anyway, and it's better to face the pain of the truth that people grow apart than try to hide from it (hello, Royal thematic consistency!), and I won't say that's untrue, but that's never how it felt to me. It always felt more like the Royal ending was a price the protagonist paid. Maybe he's paying happily for the fact that his friends have now learned to face their trauma and stand on their own two feet without support. Maybe he's paying for the weakness of almost allowing the world to fall to false constructed happiness in the first place. But it feels like a price. I do really appreciate getting to hear someone who really liked Royal's ending analyze these themes like this! It gives me some food for consideration, and it's nice to know I'm not the only one who (way, way over-)analyzes these games like this. I'll probably end up checking out more of your Persona analysis vids after this!
It really didn't feel like you're losing your friends in Royal though, at least not to me. Sure they don't drive you home, but that doesn't remove the possibility of the friends reuniting again. They can still easily visit each other in their free time and I have no doubt they will. They even joke that if Joker doesn't come to visit from time to time, they'll just hunt him down in his home town if they have to. None of them have any intention of letting these friendships die. They've just come to realize that they need to focus on themselves for awhile. Sure they won't be together all the time anymore, but those friendships will last forever and they will find ways to stay in each others lives, even as they all walk their own paths. You don't save the world together...twice...and then just walk away from each other, never to reconnect again and that's especially true for Joker and whomever he romanced. I didn't see the ending of P5R as a "Goodbye forever." , but more of a "See you guys later." As for the glasses, he does take them off in the final scene. So, he's still discarding his mask.
I like the bit you mentioned about the rules, because technically, its meta commentary. When the game ends, you have to say goodbye to your friends, no matter how much you love them, the story and the game are over, just like the protagonist's journey, so, we gotta leave, the main character must return home and you must return to the real world. With that said, I think you over exxagerate. Perhaps its because I've had to deal with growing apart from my friends, but I don't feel like Joker has payed any price in Royal. Even Akechi is alive! Sure, you have to say goodbye, but everyone is stronger and better, and none of them will ever forget your time together. Even that is being dramatic, since you meet again 3 months later for the plot of Strikers to happen and when that year ends, Joker will be 18 and go to university, what he does from then on depends on "your Joker" your headcanon.
I get why a lot of people say they like the original ending better than the Royal true ending, but as sweet as that one is (and as much as I love the song "With the Stars and Us"), I think I prefer the Royal ending. Just like you said, it focuses more on the Phantom Thieves as individuals, and to me, that shows how they'll still be connected to each other no matter where they are in the world, which is how good friends should be. Joker would've had to say goodbye to them, anyway, since they'd all have to return to Tokyo. Besides, even after he takes the train home in Royal, I imagine they all took that van out to visit him the first chance they got. Knowing them, that wasn't the last time they all got together before Strikers.
Ngl saying goodbye to everyone on the final day got me up all choked up and sob a bit this game like all the rest really know how to tug at your heartstrings
P5R's theme kinda remind me of The Answer's own themes, with how Akechi is reminiscent of ??? (altough maybe alive but you get tue idea) and how the casy is going to move forwards with their future but still keep tabs on each other (Arena Ultimax for example)
Honestly I love how the third semester incorporates Persona 3 and 4’s themes as well, with many of the phantom thieves having to cope with dead loved ones, and facing the truth instead of a false reality.
I rarely leave comments on videos these days, but this one left such an impression on me, that I just have to. Hello, Ms. Virgilia, I've been enjoying your Trails-related content immensely since this year amidst the current situation, and as you see by my profile picture, I love Persona 3, it's my favorite game. I am also currently playing through Sky 3rd (once that's done, that's 7 games down and I can finally get to Cold Steel 3!!!), so you naming Ren Kevin just warmed my heart. Anyway, regarding this video, it's very interesting how each version of P5 resonated with me at different times in my life. I played the original P5 just as it released in Japan, and it's themes about coming together to face the world spoke to me a lot since I was starting an entirely new stage of my life where I was in a completely new environment and barely knew anyone. So gradually making connections while remembering the union of the Phantom Thieves is a memory that will stay with me. Five playthroughs later, and while I still appreciate the original game's placement in my life in that respect, Royal's themes speak to the current me. Like yourself and others, I've also experienced and lost along the way since I played the original all those years back. And like the thieves in the game, I often think about the what ifs and should haves. But whenever I watch those epilogue scenes, by listening to your personal connection with the game, and when I think of games like Royal, Dragon Quest XI, and of course Trails (particularly Azure), I remember that in this present moment there are people with me, dreams I have forged, goals I am setting out towards. And if the team at Atlus' goal was to help remind us players to embrace and be proud of the present we created and live in, I think they did a very nice job. Ms. Virgilia, thank you so much for making such a well-thought out and thought provoking video. I haven't felt this impacted from one for a long time, it really made my week. I look forward to your upcoming content in the future, and thank you also for all the wonderful contributions you have made to both the Trails and Persona community.
I had to laugh (in a positive way!) when you started the conclusion with "Well...neither is", because that is what I thought when I saw this video. I thought "Wait, isn't this very subjective in this case?" but clicked anyways, because I enjoyed all your other analysis videos so much, that I even recommend them on my IG and annoy my friends with it. A game like this deserves depths anyalsis. Like you said, for your own very personal reasons you enjoy P5R more! To me, P5 hit home like a game probs never has. I value friendship and teamwork a lot, which is what got me so into P5 from the beginning. Like a lot of people I've been an outcast, bullied and went through middle and early high school basically friendless. It only stopped after school where I was elected as the leader of a dance team in my city for several years. Coming from school and being able to go see what felt like my people was what got me through the last couple of school years. From then onwards, I got the courage and formed a tutoring system at my school after much talking to the teachers. It went so well and I was so glad I could lead that for the last 2 years of school as well. Since life isn't a video game, my school experience and mental health didn't magically change, but these people really pulled me through it. Sadly we disbanded after fights happened between members in late 2018 (again, life is no cool game) so it's just a bittersweet memory by now; but I am still friends with some of the members and I cannot deny that they helped me through times. That might be why the P5 ending had me sobbing and resonates so much within me. Akira/Ren/Joker/however you call him gets this false probation, is seen as an outcast and lowkey unknowingly gathers fellow outcasts in and around his school. From that onwards everyone betters themselves as individual through the group. They together face those issues and the one that is being hurt from it can get through it stronger, since they've their friends by their side who can feel the same way with the other issues in the game. Which all leads up to the end when we've to fight Shido. It's done together, once more, despite that it's actually only Akira's and Haru's personal problem. It will affect all of them if he becomes prime minister, but other than that it's only those two - and they still do it as a group as well until the very end. The main point I got froom P5's ending is: That despite everything you've been through or go through, as long as you have those important to you by your side, it's not as dark as it may seem and not all hope is lost. So all in all it is probably just from the type of persona we are and our experiences we've gathered in life so far what we felt was more satisfiying. I'm gonna say I really enjoyed the whole thing with Maruki and this "fake" reality. We all can name something we wish to have from the past. Like right now typing this comment makes me miss my group, I recently lost two very close friends since they weren't health anymore, etc etc. It's really tempting, but I like how once more the game tries to tell you what should matter more. In all honesty, I like both! I guess just everyone or at least a lot of people will favour one due to how they are. This is probably hands down the most personal and one of the longest comments I have ever written, but I just enjoyed your analysis videos so much and am still kind of overwhelmed I found something like P5. Good shit.
Vanilla P5, no question. But P5R with it's "everyone is leaving, not just the MC" ending, deserves credit for stopping just short of outright stating that what makes P5s original ending so good is that it won't be recaptured.
Is the only situation where I prefer Vanilla true ending and "Star and us" ending theme than Royal's one. And fits more with the main theme of the game revolution, freedom and challenging fate. I would prefer the "follow your heart and dreams" theme for P6, since fits the green color motif also representing life and hope. And vanilla P5, follows like P3 and all Persona endings prior, after the "journey" ends, they still remain as friends. While in P5R, I happy for them, following their goals and dreams, they felt like more acquaintances than real friends and Sumire goodbye scene was lackluster, even worst if she was your gf in the game. 😅 P4 train scene hits your harder and is more emotional and bittersweet + Teddie's final monologue about "even apart, they will always be connected" and then protag looks to his photo with his friends + returning to Inaba during Summer break is a wholesome ending. Like Vanilla P5 ending is wholesome and earned.
Though I adore Royal for the themes and complexities it introduces, I find that the original climax and resolution resonates more with my experience and ideals. The whole game up to that point illustrates the sheer evil that systems of hierarchy perpetuate the detriment of those who are disadvantaged, exploited, and marginalized. We see as the unheard children of society decide to take a stand against the bastards that rule their lives and end their oppression. However, they come to the realization that targeting individuals isn't the solution: it is the system itself that imprisons the people and tells them that is for the best. Even when no one else believes in them, they come face to face with the God of Control and fight against all odds. Only together, with the people crying out in their favor, do the phantom thieves have the power to summon Satanael and shoot God in the head. And in this world of ours, where the poor and marginalized suffer while the rich and powerful govern with a shit eating grin, seeing a story where rebels forge bonds through adversity, fight for radical change, and actually win, well, it gives me hope. To quote Mona, "Soon a new world will come. One where mankind isn't held captive. The world will shine brightly as long as you hold hope in your hearts."
Scramble is only going to be a sequel to the Vanilla, not the Royal. But what I wish for is a game where we play as Akechi. It would be interesting and fun
@@kronkbonk2930 nope i think p5 royal is tge canon.. Because according to atlus when i was in japan p5 royal is the complete version of the original p5.. P5 royal they change the true ending that will lead us to p5 striker which is very obvious.. Some people in google they can't accept that p5 royal is the Canon version.. They keep on insisting that vanilla p5 is the Canon.. Only atlus can answer this question.. But if you played both version the answer is already obvious.. I had the feeling that some fans are Angry that p5 had a new and improved version, they don't want to spend another 60$ ...
@@MrBenedick14 The original is canon to Strikers. It’s two separate canons. We can tell because there’s not even a single reference to Royal anywhere. They never acknowledge Sumire, they never acknowledge Maruki, they never acknowledge Akechi’s surprise resurrection, only to realize he would die again when Maruki’s reality collapsed.
@@pyrocinematics6649 If I remember correctly there's some references to royal like ryuji referencing his and makoto's showtime and a line that haru says in the endgame
Not really. I've played Strikers and while there are no overt references to Royal, nothing about Strikers contradicts Royal or vice-versa. It's just a similar situation with Persona 4 Arena and Persona 4 Golden, where the former project canonically takes place after Golden, but because it came out first or was put in development first, there's no actual content from Golden available in that game. However, the immediate follow ups, Arena Ultimax and Persona Q are written with Golden being the canon version in mind. With Strikers, it's very much written to be a follow up to P5 and nothing more. People misinterpret what Omega Force said when they said it was a follow up to the original game. They never actually said it was only canon to the vanilla game. And even then, the place the Phantom Thieves are at at the beginning of Strikers does not contradict with the plans they have made in Royal's True Ending. Even Ann being around makes sense if you think about how she probably is putting off studying overseas for after her graduation. You can, in fact, go from one to the other without too much mental gymnastics to make it work. Basically, what I'm trying to get across is that Royal is the definitive version, as stated by the developers, but Strikers by necessity has to be able to be its own thing considering it was made by another company and was in development at the same time as Royal and only released a few months after Royal in Japan. Trying to put more explicit Royal elements into Strikers was simply not feasible with how games are made over there in Japan. And so don't be surprised if a potential sequel to Strikers ends up having more elements from Royal included, including Sumire and maybe Akechi.
Nice video, i liked your analyses. I wanted to add that asking "which is BETTER?" is such a dumb thing that humanity needs to stop asking, especially when it comes to art or media. It is subjective. humans are all different and each will find a different ending better. i personally accepted maruki's offer, but I wouldn't judge anyone for choosing a different one, i would however defend my position aggressively to any one who challenged me and i would attack back as a reaction.
I admit that while I love both and overall P5R's ending is the one I like better, the final cutscene in P5 is my personal favorite mainly due to nostalgia and other things. Though I will say you've given me a new appreciation for P5R's ending cutscene
Amazing work on this video by the way! My ending opinion is very simple: I prefer Royal because of the more tragic air and the mystifying ambiguity of the coming days. Also I think "Our Light" can be interpreted as Joker coming to terms with the loss of Akechi and that's art to me.
12:04 This were my thoughts, as well. I felt that Goro suffered from rough writing, but the devs did manage to show a boy who just wanted someone to love him.
My only problem with Royal's ending is the final cinematic where before the protag gets on the train, he bumps into Sumire and she has her ponytail tied up even though the story went over what that symbolized. so for her hair not to be down is a really inconsistent/confusing detail that just didn't sit well with me. Not to mention that she was not with the gang at the end in the car made her also feel rather distant instead of being a new ally.
if you maxed Sumire she will be open to wearing her hair up again if i remember correctly. Yeah maybe she should have been in the car with the rest of the crew but she wasn't really a phantom thief which is why they didn't put her there.
Sumire keeping her hair up is a sign of resolve, shown at the last rank of her confidant. She doesn't tie it up because she wants to be Kasumi, but because she accepts she needs to work for their dreams. Think of it as a self reminder of her sister
I much prefer Royal's ending. The decision with Maruki is a little more iffy than the clear cut decision with the god of control. We've all been there in moments of weakness wishing for our pain to go away and be erased. However, the game heavily implies that the reality Maruki would create would effectively remove their humanity. Experiencing pain and hardship is what allows us to grow as people. And so in the royal ending I do love how everyone is splitting up to pursue their own goals in life. Something a lot of media does not portray is the passage of time and how people come in and out of your lives eventually as things change. The ending wants you to believe that yes hardship sucks and can be painful but overcoming that and foraging your own future will make you a happier, stronger, and more fulfilled person than the alternative of Maruki's future of staying stagnant in your wishful desires never experiencing failure.
My biggest and really only issues with Royal were, the ending cutscene and the talk about separation from between PT's. But mainly the conversation, while the cutscene sucks in comparison to the vanilla one, withou the previous conversation the thought of them separating wouldnt even cross my mind, but the game deliberately goes out of its way to force this resolution of theirs upon us even if it doesnt make any sense withing their character. For example Ann leaving abroad, less then a year after her horrible experiences and after she found the place where she belongs, she immidiately leaves it behind. The way its setup and what it means is just terrible to me, especially considering majority of the news are barely anything out of the ordinary, like Makoto and Haru finding their own places to live. I simply did not believe in the bonds as protrayed by P5R ending and that just crushes me because thats what Persona is about to me. Regardless great analysis, its always fantastic to see through lenses of someone else :) I love talking about this, do you have a Discord channel?
That's a fair take! Though of course, I can't say I agree, since I think each character's updated resolve in P5R shows actual individual growth on his or her own end. But then again, I'm of the opinion that the bonds shown in Royal are even more meaningful *because* they know they don't need to be together in order to still support one another. That's due to my own personal life experience though, since the friends who have been my biggest support system over the years have, more often than not, been separated by distances of thousands of miles~ But it's as you say- it's always interesting to hear someone else's perspective! And yes, I have a joint discord server that's always in my video descriptions ^^ Here's a link: discord.gg/96SQABN
@@LadyVirgilia Ah, missed the discord, I shall join you there presently :D I was never a fan of the no matter how far apart we are we will always be friends. Friends want to spend time with each other, they want to talk and have fun, they want to experience stuff together, in whatever form available. R is pushing their future over their current lifes, over their current relationships. It hardly feels justified or correct given that majority of the cast are still highschoolers, at that point hardly anyone has their life together or life goals properly set. Having a reliable group of friends that you can trust and that has helped you overcome what amounts to life changing world shattering troubles, is far more important imo. It is clear that they pushed the new lesson over the bonds, given how much emphasis they put on them going their own ways and focusing on their future. To give a specific example that I just cant forgive, I will again use Ann. Given that the MC can be in a relationship with Ann for about a year now, isnt she a horrible person for deciding to just go abroad and follow her career (at 17 mind you and for no reason whatsoever) without even talking it over first? Its as if the writers automaticaly expect that the player and Joker would be ok with that. Thats not the character having more control, its just forcing them apart for drama's sake, as her resolution has been same by the end of the social link, now its just with the aditional, unneccessary and out of character separation. The tone is simply all wrong to me, its as if they are ending their friendships, severing their bonds, rather then gaining strength from them, moving on from their past and looking solely to the future rather then learning and accepting it, abandoning their place to belong to join the cruel reality. I get that is the point, but the question is why is it neccessary. And it just isnt to me, it feels hamfisted in for the sake of justifying the ending and the message. Sorry for the long post :D I do understand why some, you included prefer the Royal ending, I suppose it just comes down to the mindset and expectations as with most things :)
@@KaiSaeren as a person who has also been greatly impacted by friendships hundreds of miles away from me I’m greatly saddened that they tried to go this direction in P5R • It isn’t that I don’t believe friendships can work or are that they’re less meaningful when so far away but as someone that’s always lived through that I loved so dearly the thought of having a group of friends that close that are actually near me, and with the way P5R ended it just felt hollow • The character motivations for a lot of the stuff too don’t add up Ryuji in base game made a point that he doesn’t belong with the track team anymore and that you as well as the rest of the team were the people he belonged with, I fully believe him wanting to get PT for his leg but the fact that he wants to rejoin the track team doesn’t sit well with me. • Haru and Makoto getting their own places shouldn’t be painted as a huge deal tbh, as so long as they stay in the city, even if in a different district they’re still in train distance • Ann going abroad by itself doesn’t feel out of place, but when it’s for as long as she’s doing it, it does. I can fully picture her going over summer break but I can’t see her wanting to leave the thieves behind for a whole year, I’d think she’d want that home base of acceptance • Futaba starting to go to school is chill, as well as Yusuke not going anywhere because it just makes sense • Them taking away the road trip at the end will never not make me mad though
I can see why people would prefer the Royal ending, as it presents thought-provoking themes on the nature of individuality and happiness, however I do prefer the original ending with Yaldabaoth as the final enemy. It falls more in line with the journey prior. Teenagers rise against the injustices of society, gradually facing antagonists of greater scope and influence, until they are faced with a literal God of Control-the ultimate representation of social injustice. This wraps up the archetypal Hero’s Journey that was built upon organically throughout the game. It makes sense. When we, the player, are faced with yet another antagonist in Maruki, the story thematics can be interpreted as taking a complete 180 (so to speak). What was the point of fighting the God of Control? His existence as an enemy seems invalidated. And therefore not necessary. (I believe that story beats should serve an explicit purpose in any overarching narrative. If there’s no actual purpose to a story beat, then why is it even included in the narrative?). While a very human and well-written ‘enemy’ for the Phantom Thieves, Maruki doesn’t exactly fall in line with the theme of teenagers rising against social injustice. It’s more of a human battle vs. Maruki as an individual, and not vs. society as a whole-the latter being the overarching theme thus far. This is why enemies up until this point seem cartoonishly evil; they almost have to be, to represent the evils of a corrupt society. The more human they are, the more the conflict shifts from a man vs. society conflict to a man vs. man conflict. Not that one type of conflict is better than the other, it just depends on which one is being focused on in the narrative, P5’s primarily being man vs. society. As someone who played both games at their respective launch dates, this is something I immediately noticed upon completing Royal. Although a beautifully written story arc, I do think it deserves to be-and could even be unpacked more-as its own standalone story in a new Persona installment. Not tacked on to a cohesively concluded narrative in P5.
These are the exact thoughts I had when I played P5R the first time! Having not played the original, I was taken aback by the thematic shift of Maruki's storyline going from fighting the impersonal God of Control who represented all the corruption in society to fighting a delusional scientist who has well-intentioned and understandable yet extreme motives. It didn't quite feel like a natural progression of the conflict. While I agree that the third semester is amazingly well written, it felt more like an extra storyline or a sequel than a conclusion. Still one of my favorite games!
@@Naoto-kun1085 wholeheartedly agree! when I wrote this almost a year ago I wasn’t sure if people had the same feelings; I fell in love with the original P5 and this was kind of a rant of my distaste for some of the Royal additions (it’s still a good game though!). I’m glad to see that my thoughts hit home for some people. Cheers!
I don’t know if you’ll see this but I just want to say I just beat p5 royal recently for the first time and I’ve been absolutely loving your videos and the detailed analyses you provide. I know I’m about 8 years late to the party but I’m glad to discover this channel. Please keep up the good work, I pray you stay in good health.
See, I like literally everything about the P5R ending more than the original.. EXCEPT FOR THE FINAL ANIME CUTSCENE. It just felt off that Joker would take a taxi ride from Maruki to the subway instead of having one last hangout with his homies. I think a little cameo where Maruki is seen at a stop light and they share a few words before the light goes green would've hit much harder, and after all we went through with Sumire? I feel like there should've been more with her. I also REALLY dislike the "omg is Akechi actually alive uwu???" tease at the end as it feels like Atlus was to scared to commit to killing off a fan favorite character and wanted to leave it ambiguous... which expands to all media that does fake out deaths, I just hate that trope in general. One I can deal with but TWO? Idk man it just feels like you're trying to hard at that point. This is also more of a personal take but I just like With The Stars and US a lot more than I did Our Light. Don't get me wrong, Our Light is still a masterpiece and one of the best songs to ever be composed like... ever... even when looking outside of the context of video games (like most of the Persona ending themes) but man something about With The Stars and Us just gives me chills everytime I think of that chorus... it just hits me so much harder than Our Light did. Memories of You is still best song in the series, I will fight you on this and you will lose because you objectively have just the wrong opinion if you say otherwise, this is not a joke, I will find you.
What bugs me about the Royal ending is how they treated sumire's scene. Sure, your video honestly made have a better opinion on the Royal ending, but the sumire scene was so small. She was a main focus of the new semester along with akechi but the fact that you dont even get to say good bye the day before and then you just happen to meet her on the train station was bad. Hell not even a text before hand. The scene itself feels like it was pasted near the end of the production of the anime cutscene and bam done. They honestly should've added sumire in the van along with the rest of the cast, but its left a bit ambiguous even though we know she will want to pursue Kasumi and her dream but the lack of a good bye makes it feel bland or empty.
honestly, i prefer this way... sumire was never a true friend of the pt's, she only had relevance during the whole game because she had a crush on joker and pursued him until the end (and was also, maruki's first patient). but even preventing maruki's reality, she still... acted like her sister, she still wanted to be like kasumi (even if she doesn't say clearly). not having her there shows the fact she was never a close friend for them, but still had a special place for joker
@@abigailfn I have to strongly disagree with you there. I will give you that she should not be in the van because she was kind of like a add on in regards to the pt's, but she was set up to be way more to joker (and she was more to me in my playthrough) and this ending did her dirty
I like it, it's intentional. So far up to that point it's all been long somber goodbyes. After having spent a good portion of the last semester of the game interactioning with her it's supposed to be a bit of irony that she is just casual says bye like that, the idea is supposed to be that nothing needs to be said. It's also supposed to be a bit hopeful, reminding you or the player character that's not actually end and they will probably see each other again.
I enjoyed my time with Royal so much. I loved playing through Maruki's palace. But I thought that narratively, vanilla had the tighter ending. It felt like a true culmulation to all the narrative threads and themes that had precedded it. Royal felt like a sequel, something set apart that explored themes that built on the the conclusion of vanilla. It deserved to be a new game, set after vanilla rather than a part of it.
Another insightful analysis video. Here's my perspective. I'm a veteran Persona fan and played 3, 4 and their respective remakes. However, I skipped Persona 5 Vanilla due to lack of PS5s and skipped straight to Royal. For the most part, I enjoyed everything. Maruki as an antagonist is so multi-faceted, so morally grey, and a much better character than "pure evil" Shido. However, when it came to the ending, the saying goodbyes to all Confidants and the ending cinematic, I felt ripped off. Disappointed. For one thing, Sumire. She was just gone. Nowhere to be seen in Kichijoji. I remember walking everywhere in Tokyo looking for her. Nope. Not there. Then there was the train ending. Okay, the Phantom Thieves were there. What? They're being tailed? They're gonna try to lose them? Great. Maruki's a taxi driver? That's nice. So, where are the goodbyes? What? A quick "bye" at the train station?? What the h*ll?? That's it?? Oh there's Sumire... wait, she's gonna barely pretend you don't exist? THIS ISN'T WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR!! Look. I love the Persona series. The endings of 3 and 4 have been seared into my mind permanently as the greats of video games. I can recall with perfect clarity Aigis comforting Arisato Minato as he closes his eyes to rest as the rest of SEES rush up to them. I can never forget the heartfelt goodbyes the rest of the Investigation Team shout to Narukami Yu as his train departs Inaba. They showed the clear camaraderie, the bonds they have forged with each other over the ordeal of the past year. So, when I finished the True Final Ultimate ending of Persona 5 Royal, I was utterly underwhelmed by what I got. Joker deserved more than a quick "bye" at the train station. We players deserved more than that. And then I saw the True ending of Vanilla Persona 5. That's then I *knew* I was ripped off. The Phantom Thieves were there in the van, waiting for Joker. They then point out the cops whose feelings were hurt is still tailing Joker, trying to find a charge to stick to him. By rights they should all be laying low until the heat goes off and any conspicuous activities like gathering in a broken down van in the middle of Shibuya should be a no-go. But they do anyway, because it doesn't matter what other people think, as long as they are okay with themselves. Even though they have to say goodbye to each other, they still have time for one last road trip and that, is a beautiful twist compared to the irrevocable separation the previous teams had to endure. In a final icing on the cake, Morgana steals the cops' spark plug, fixing their van and sticking it to rotten adults in one swoop, just another day with the Phantom Thieves. Keep in mind that in Royal's ending, the Phantom Thieves were practically surrendering to the pressure of those corrupt cops. Slinking around with decoys, cutting goodbyes short just to avoid the police that they had no problem defying in the Vanilla ending? No. That's a regression. You could have kept the road trip ending and it still would have made sense even in the face of the Phantom Thieves disbanding to pursue their own dreams. Add Sumire to the van trip, let the player say goodbye to Maruki the day before (where he can spell out the implications of his taxi job better than subtext) and just let Akechi go already. He's not the first social link to die. (Remember Akari in Persona 3?) Persona 4 had perfected the "goodbye" formula already, why fix what ain't broken? As a result, Royal's ending felt neutered. Most of what made it were there, but it lacked the feels to truly make it potent.
I never played Persona 5, only Royal, so from my perspective, its ending feels like a natural extension of the themes seen in the base game. Since I wasn't really able to see the original ending before the Royal one just due to how things lined up, it felt kind of unsatisfying to leave off on the note it did. It's kind of like how P4G added the extra scenes at the end of the game that wasn't there before. To me, it made perfect sense to expand upon what you're truly fighting for when it comes to facing corruption, and there are times where your own resolve, and maybe even morals, positions, and motives will be tested. P5 seemed to paint a very clear picture of where the Phantom Thieves were objectively right basically at every turn, but Royal legitimately posed hard questions the base game never dared to ask. To me, that's a perfect way to finish off the game, and the antagonist they added was a near-flawless and natural addition in my opinion.
While I am still curious enough to see the new content myself, I get the feeling that P5R's new ending and themes were written to countermand the idea of a second run through the game, where you think "this time, it'll be perfect". No, and that's okay too. At some point, the adventure comes to a definitive end, and it's time to move on. Perhaps I'm overthinking it? For context, it took me not just 100 hours, but over two years to finish the game. I played it with my family watching. I have a feeling they are not up for retreading 89% of the same ground as before for another 2 years. I don't blame them
Honestly absolutely hate how Royal just does 180 on the vanilla story and goes like "yeah, your friends are unimportant (except akechi), screw them" and the ending is just the final nail in that coffin.
I like both endings, but if i have to choose, i prefer P5R for one only reason: After 230 living with all this guys, don´t want say goodbye, instead, i just want to keep playing and seing Phantom thieves adventures. But, know what? Every adventure in life has and end, and same as the characters, if i want grow up, i have to leave, move forward and pursue my own objetives. For a moment, i feel like i was part of Phanthom Thieves and i´m saying goodbye too. It´s sad, but also i´m happy because i keep with me all the lessons i learn with this people. So, i think the final message in the game is: Stop playing, stop living in confort, doesn´t matter what happened in the past, be brave, go outside and take your dreams. After all, you have friends who support you, right? So, you know, wake up, get up, get out there, if you believe, life will change and now is your time to create rivers in the desert. At least that is what i think. Oh, sorry for the bad english, this is not my native languaje. Also, i hope you understood my comment.
I personally lean more towards the original ending it really seems to encapsulate the phantoms friendship and resolve to live as they want regardless of society's approval. But the Royal ending does show the phantoms' individuality more, but it does seem a bit lonelier for Joker. Maruki becoming a taxi driver still seems a bit weird to me he didn't have to give up counselling all together. I personally would have had the original ending of the road trip home with the addition of Sumire and Maruki seeing you off and the end credits still showing what each phantom is up to post story. Even if the future is uncertain after every thing they've been through they'll face it with hope, courage and friendship.
Persona 5 R's final semester was such a huge opportunity. It had a lot of consistency with itself, but it was a complete whiplash compared to the rest of P5. Maybe it was the 2nd "we're bringing you back for one last gig" thing, the tacked on "we're all going to move EXTRA far away now" bit, or just that Maruki felt way different than anything else in the game. The writing felt extremely different as soon as I hit the 3rd semester and I ultimately feel like it would be much better if that new writing was expanded upon in a Persona 6 where the nature of happiness vs freedom can be fully explored. Just imagine that Kasumi/Sumire was a party member from the get-go and it wasn't until the final palace that the big reveal happened. They could even throw in extra confidant ranks for if you try to max her out early, only to reveal that it was all a farce and change her arcana like adatchi. I think an emotional through-line like that could really be awesome if a whole game was planned around it
oh yes i love royals ending but we were on the fourth "final" mission at that point first sae which is less convincing to the players then shido then god of control and finally maruki honestly i half suspected another palace somehow after maruki as i dont really get how something born from human cognition can just end
Great analysis! This was pretty much how I felt about the endings as well - the somber, but still hopeful tones of P5R’s ending just resonated more with me as an older young adult. I never understood why so many people disliked it so much compared to the original’s ending. Love your content!
Really? I'm a jaded working adult and I found the ham fisted attempt at a bittersweet ending to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. No sweetness, no satisfaction. I already have to deal with disappointment, sadness, etc. IRL so to find that the MCs friends are basically ditching him for bigger and better things made me so angry. Good thing I didn't buy my copy of Royal and borrowed it from a friend. I'm definitely not giving ATLUS $ for half assed spinoffs like this. At least I could actually enjoy Strikers. Royal took itself too seriously, like the writers wanna do some kinda Yoko Taro artsy game that ended up being even more style and less substance than the original.
@@Ookamiryoshi you’re looking at the ending at a very surface level. No one is ditching joker as they’re all still in contact. They’re just deciding to move on and grow. If you romance one of your teammates they’ll continue the relationship. In all honesty you saying they’re all leaving joker seems more like head canon then what actually happened
Outstanding analysis! I definitely prefer Royal ending over vanilla since it’s just on a different emotional level and the themes of the third semester resonated deeply with me (and because of that I can’t listen to “Our Light” without getting emotional).
Royal’s ending, in my opinion, is better. It’s less feel-good, sure, but it shows so much more growth in each individual Phantom Thief and you see how much they’ve matured after having to face reality after rejecting the happy life Maruki created for them.
Brilliant video, Lady. I would elaborate more, but I've had a few too many adult beverages and got my more sober buddy to type this for me. I look forward to future content. P.s. DP's buddy here. This took 20 minutes to write because it was difficult to get a coherent sentence out of him lol.
I also relate to Royal more, even though Vanilla was the first game that made me cry. I've lost my grandma 3 years ago, and it was hard(and still is) to move on and finish school without her seeing, or going to university(the one she kind of helped me figure out, on the subject that both of us loved -History-), but I keep Charging and going, for her and for me, to achieve my dreams and become the person that I want to be, even though that makes me want to go to another continent to study, away from my most dear friends(even though one is going to the US, so we will be more far apart then ever, but it is for our dreams, so we keep support ourselves). I love Royals part when the talked about the future, and after that I couldn't contain my tears cause Ann, Makoto, Haru all said what I am going to do. It is hard growing up and leaving somethings/someone behind, but there's a world waiting for you, so go take it. That's my interpretation of P5Royal and it is my favorite game ever.
This was an excellent video and a great breakdown of the messages in each version. I personally prefer Royal's ending over Vanilla's due to each member of the Phantom Thieves having their own individual goals to pursue along with the themes represented in Royal's third semester. Though I can see why Vanilla's would be enjoyed more by others due to it's upbeat message, to each their own of course. Regardless, I can't wait to see more from you, this and your many Persona 3 analysis videos have been a blast to watch!
My problem with either version's ending is one about how Japan views criminals. Even cleared the stigma of being convicted would stick with Joker throughout his life. Him going home is not actually a good thing as his parents and home town will still view him as a criminal and the local police will go after him for any crime that they don't have clear evidence of who did it. He is leaving those who would standby him when others would suspect him and discriminate him for his record regardless of it being cleared. Japan has a once a criminal always a criminal mentality and being proved innocent of false charges means nothing in clearing that mindset. Thus Joker is leaving a caring if difficult environment for one that will be abusive and next to impossible without support as his parents clearly didn't care about him after he was convicted as they never check up with him personally and possibly not at all.
If I have to compare the two endings, I would say Royal has the better one. I completed P5 around what, 4 years ago now? And watching the ending for the first time was just... Breathtaking. My first Persona game ever, and man, was it great. But the story, and the ending itself, never really stuck with me. Then I played Royal, and truth be told? The 3rd semester completely blew me away. I am a HUGE sucker for philosophy (which is why NieR:Automata is my favorite game), and the core question of the 3rd semester really, really stuck with me. I still think about it to this day. Maruki himself was masterfully written as well, and the entire conflict between him and Thieves was great. But the ending... The first time I beat Royal, it was around 2am. And let me tell you, seeing the ending in the dead of night really set the mood. Then the credits started and I heard "Our Light" for the first time. I just sat there, in the dead of night, staring at my TV listening to Lyn's incredible voice. It was incredible. But enough fluff, let's get back to the point at hand. Why is Royal's ending better? Before the credits, there is a scene where the Thieves sit in LeBlanc and discuss how their future will now. And they all more or less have the same realization: The paths they have chosen will most likely separate them, be it for a short time or for a lot longer. But no one suddenly decides to give up on their dreams just to avoid the pain of separation. Their hearts and minds are set, and nothing will stop them from pursuing their dreams. The future they have chosen, the future they fought Maruki for, they will follow it. That's why "Our Light" is so good IMO. It's tone just fits so well with the thought of everyone going their own way, no matter how hard it will be. And I think I appreciate this message more than the ending of vanilla P5. Sorry for the long rant, those games just mean a lot to me. Tl;dr P5R has the better ending because it fits better with its themes
I largely dislike Royal's ending cause it leaves mysteries open for other games, which P3 and P4 managed not to do, and rather than making the other party members feel more like individuals, the framing seemed more like they were satellites around Joker. Even in P4 vanilla, where the protagonist and the others are separated, the perspective came back to them after they had parted ways. Also there was the treatment of Sumire with her briefly appearing (looking exactly like she did at the start of the game) to remind the player she exists, then leaving. Finally, the original ending remembered that Joker doesn't need glasses now that he's a free man. Royal, they have to keep them on most of the time cause it's an iconic look now.
Great Video! You helped me to appreciate the ending of P5R more, even though I'm still uncertain about it. I would like to hear your thoughts on the bad ending of P5R and on the (almost) absense of Sumi in the ending.
In terms of endings i go with P5R's ending while in Vanilla p5 its just you fighting a corrupted sociaty in turn ending with the clash against Yaldabaoth, P5R's 3rd Semester while only a month arc is one of the most beautiful pieces of storytelling in modern persona cause you genuinely dont know which side to pick do you chose Maruki's Ideal Reality, and everyones happy, or the real reality where every single party members had there own time to grow. The best characters to see the stark diffrence in realities is Ann and Futaba, in marukis reality Ann has Shiho, and Futaba has her mom Wakaba. It also shows the lose, or shiho moving in anns case grow as characters
I strongly prefer the vanilla one personally :) I know the themes for the Royal were different and it "fits" there or is more "realistic", but for me it ruined a lot of what I love about Persona. The friendships felt less impactful, less important and less believable, its the struggle between what I prefer and between how the developers meant it. The whole meaning of the journey of the bonds, of the power of friendship was diminished and played second fiddle to the leaving your past behind you, even tho it makes no sense for teenagers such as them, all of a sudden in less then a year they wanted to leave their "place to belong" and move on. The vanilla ending just fits Persona better in general, but it works better even for Persona 5 Royal because majority of the game is the same, just the ending is different for the most part, it shouldnt undo everything else that has happened in the game previously. Meaning the themes of P5 are still also present in P5R, hence the clash and hence why I dislike it so much. The new ending and "lesson" feels hamfisted, just stuck there for sake of yet another resolution for already set and resolute characters. Mind you I dont mind the message or the themes, but it just doesnt fit Persona 5 for me, its like they tried to remake it but this isnt a new game its just an upgrade, changin the whole theme simply cant work, its not Persona 5, its not Persona. The story is well told and the themes are interesting, I just dont like how it shits on the previous themes and essentially ruins what was already set up and what already happened for a different lesson. Not surprised you prefer Royal, it had Akechi in it, not very fair contest :D Id love to hear your thoughts :)
Um, were we playing the same game? To me it honestly sounds more like they aren't leaving their place to belong, but instead that they are saying all of them need to move forward *together* but that it requires them to actually follow their dreams to do so. Hence: Ann goes to *study* abroad and learn more about modeling and fashion wand intends to *return* to Tokyo to be with her friends. Ryouji goes to get physical therapy so he can start running again, and in no way precludes him from returning to Tokyo for better or worse. Yusuke (to my memory) never even mentions leaving Tokyo or not hanging out with anyone, just that he's doubling down on his arts. Makoto's ENTIRE MOTIVATION is becoming a *Tokyo* police commissioner and is still studying within the Tokyo Prefecture for that purpose. Futaba literally isn't going anywhere as she *just* started high school. Haru is attending university (in Tokyo?) for the express purpose of being able to lead Okumura Foods, *headquartered* in Tokyo. Goro is MIA so N/A. Lavenza is a wild card so to speak whose return or absence is debatably up to fan canon. I'll include Sae, Sojiro, Sadayo, Ichiko, Mishima, Toranosuke, Munehisa and Maruki here, who also seem to not be going anywhere unless they die or are called by the protagonist/Phantom Thieves. Sae literally even gives him her number and business card should he need her help. And Sumire is still a high school student athlete living in Tokyo. The only ones who leave, which is up to individual fan canon as to whether or not it is permanently, are Ren/Akira and Morgana. And *that* is up to *you*.
@@Heartrose7 I agree, this is how it should have been, how it should have felt. There shouldnt have been any big sappy scene where they make it seem like they are leaving, tho Ann's actions still do not make sense, since she directly says herself in rank 10 of her confidant that she is fine not being number 1 right now, she wants to do things properly and slowly, but whatever. However that is not how it feels to myself and many people besides, the game goes out of its way actually to show how leaving the past behind and moving forward is the best way, there is no togetherness there at all, as is seen by the ending cutscene and the scene I was talking about where they all anounce their rather mundane and expected news as if it means they are splitting up. It is of course assumed that they will keep being friends, after all the bonds is what Persona is all about, thats simply not what the lesson of the third sememster teaches at all. I would say we were definitely playing the same game, if you see the third semester as simply an extention of what has happened before and this is still the feeling you get from it im happy for you, but that was neither the intent nor the feeling of it. It was a hamfisted lesson to add another resolution to the characters who were already moving forward together, as it is, it only seems to move them apart, as leaving the past behind and forging a new future in this world they chose regardless of how harsh it is, is what the third semester is about, sadly that also implies that if neccessary for their future and careers they will separate, of course always remaining friends in their hearts etc, but that is only a small relief. You cannot deny that P5R goes out of its way to have different ending than P5 even tho the same one could have been used, that is simply because the events were different and it changed the dynamics of the group, forcefully, so as to have that ending, otherwise, can you really imagine Ryuji just leaving Akira alone to wait for the train at the station? It suits the message of that ending, it isnt true to the relationships and bonds that were created throghout the game. As others have said more conscisely and better, P5R ending is consistent with itself, with the message of the third sememster, it is however not consistent with the hundred or so hours of Persona 5 before it and it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of those who prefered that ending.
@@KaiSaeren I feel as if I understand your side a bit better from this reply and while don't completely agree, I can at least meet you part of the way.
That is a very, very interesting interpretation for me, especially since you put it so eloquently. For me it's the opposite, I've always felt that the original ending was naive, forced and disingenuous. These kids have too much trauma to end in such a positive note. BUT I totally understand now that I read this. Guess I'm just more of a glass half empty kinda person. I'm glad that both endings can exist.
Omg, this analisys is absolutely awesome, as the game. I was a bit off with royal, that the phantom thieves don't take joker to the station, but now i comprehend. I can't tell which finale i love more, but i'm sure that i learn a lot, and that this characters will be supporting me in my heart forever, and that is the most precious thing that we can have. Pd: sorry if this text is full with mistakes, english isn't my first language
I personally thought P5R was unnecessary. I almost felt like the story got to the point that it got too complex to be enjoyed as a game. Sure it was good, just not enjoyable. I felt like P5R just added more cliffhangers that will never be explored such as the glove from Akechi from Justice Rank 8, who made the metaverse app, seeing Akechi in the after credits, and Joker seeing his metaverse self in his reflection. Sure I could see these being moving past fond memories and going forward in life, but it made me feel dissatisfied. A good example of a good ending is the True ending in P4G. Murderer is caught, why people had specific powers to go into the shadow world, all ends tied up, how everyone continues their life. P4G made me feel complete, and P5R made me feel despair. However that’s how I view each game.
Same. I mean I like Maruki and Sumire, they’re great characters. But, I feel like they should’ve just do a new game after Strikers or Vanilla Persona 5 instead of just re releasing the same game that has been over 3 years. That would’ve been an ending that we said a final goodbye to the Phantom Thieves.
@@moonbug7252 It has the “worst” writing bc it kinda focuses on your experience with the rest of the PT and what happens to all of you. Not that brilliant, but not that bad imo. About it being “happy”, Have you seen P4 and played P5R? 🤔
So much this. Its not a new game, its not even a remake, its an update, the R ending just doesnt fit with everything you have previously experienced. Its simply another resolution hamfisted in there.
@@LadyVirgilia Good to hear :D And thanks for answering to my other comment :) I also made another one even longer but who would want to keep up with my crazy rumblings :D
This is my colossal issue. Its like if they hamfisted the plot of P3 after the final boss of P4. Its a great self-contained story but a fucking horrendous ending to the 100 hour game before it.
@@cloodstroof7786 I agree going through the game with knowledge of the original Maruki, and Kasumi just feel...out of place. Like they're not meant to be there. More so than even Marie.
Personally I have a strong preference for the P5 ending. It just feels weird that the phantom thieves you just saved the world with twice basically aren't really involved and instead the guy who tried to dominate the world drives you to the train station, where you proceed to pretty much treat Sumire like she is some vague acquaintance. The fact that Joker goes back by train, while a worse option, doesn't really bother me that much. But the biggest problem I have with the third semester in general. It just feels odd. The biggest issue being its placement in the timeline. It really messes up the resolution of the main game, which is basically thrown in as an afterthought at the end. I feel like it would've been so much better if you basically first had all of P5, including cutscene, and then Joker returns in the summer or whatever (basically where Strikers takes place) where the third semester things including cutscene take place.
Totally agree it would have better to have taken place after the original's ending. And just before you think the credits will start rolling or even AFTER the credits. But I think they just wanted to do what they did in Persona 4 and have it take place in the jump from the December finale to March.
I'm honestly leaning more into Vanilla's ending. As much as I appreciate the growth that each of the thieves gets to experience in Third Semester, *one* last road trip together is absolutely not going to stop their dreams. They *deserve* that last "hurrah" together as both the Phantom Thieves and as friends before parting ways and leaving childhood behind. And with how every spin-off afterwards has ignored Royal and it's "everyone's moving on from the Phantom Thieves life" vibe... It's just jarring to come back to. (On top of that... I'm so sick and tired of Maruki ruining Joker's chances to say goodbye to people he cares about, by virtue of being one of the writer's favorites. Akechi? Nope. The Thieves? Nope. Sumi? Barely anything.)
My only issue thematically with Royal's ending is Akechi's characterization during the third semester. Theoretically, he shouldn't be "Dark Akechi" anymore because he's started a new life: He's refused to let anyone else manipulate him anymore (At least, if we're supposed to believe his non-metaverse dialogue). Yes, he should still be utterly broken and instinctually distrustful after everything he's gone through, but for whatever reason in Maruki's palace he's just the evil psychopath he revealed himself to be back in November, despite seemingly having grown and learned about himself since then. Similarly I felt like Sumire's true awakening should have come with her own outfit and Persona, but that can at least be handwaved away a bit.
So it came down to “your mileage may vary” for the decision on which ending is best? If you relate to one more than the other than that one is the better of the 2? I’ve come down to this when referring to pretty much any narrative. After watching/reading hundreds of anime/manga many of which refuse to end the ending is the most important part because that is the ultimate opportunity to make a statement on the themes a creator wants to convey. This is especially true when people come back from the dead in a story because it is the only chance for a definitive overarching message considering that there is no conclusive finality to any particular event in the rest of the plot. The ending of this video leaves a little to be desired because of the wiggle room left in the “this ending is most relatable to me” conclusion. It all but screams “the video’s tittle is designed almost solely to get you to click so I can do a good but very conventional analysis of the two games”
People thinking derivation of human free will is a good ending is highly concerning. It's probably because they never excercised their free will to change their fate and do not know the value of it.
There's a lot of people who don't believe free will exists because we can't prove it exists. There are quite a few scientific studies and religious beliefs that argue that our lives might be outside our own control.
Besides you can still obtain the Vanilla true ending in Royal, by not doing the Maruki social link. And Kasumi/Sumire social link, either you do only the first 5 parts or complete her social link, she still doesn't appear in the goodbye part of your completed social links. And for some odd reason, the white day event in March, doesn't occur, I don't know why, simply because it wasn't in Vanilla. 😅
the end of p5R seems much better and closer to the player. The comments that Maruki makes in the final fight to each of the PTs, remind you of everything they leave behind in this new reality. that was what touched me the most at the end of the game, especially akechi
Ah yes, the 5 different endings to Persona 5. Or, as I like to call them: The Traitor, Bad, Good, Ideal, and Real Ending, respectively. Because I think I'm clever. Now, I don't know why, but P5's Good ending always just felt... off, to me. It seemed almost *too* perfect, dreamlike and unreal. Basically, it felt a lot like the beginning of the third semester. Except of course that Royal had yet to even be announced. And it felt kind of empty, like when you end P4 without fighting Izanami. Like, yeah, it's a good ending, there's nothing obviously wrong with it, but something feels... *missing.* I'm not even kidding. It might've been how, the whole game, nothing had ever gone completely right. Every victory had come with a sacrifice. But now, the *very concerning* fact that Joker still has secret agents following him is just blown off with a gag about Mona still being their transportation, like it's nothing at all. It just made me uncomfortable. Then, the Thieves driving Joker home is nice, but feels like putting off the inevitable, like they're refusing to acknowledge the reality that they're still going to have to say goodbye. That, combined with Morgana's speech about one's personal cognition shaping their reality, (and probably the lingering trauma of P3's ending, if I'm being honest,) made me genuinely wonder if the protagonist was just hallucinating the whole thing, either in prison or while dieing from the strain of killing Yaldabaoth. That probably sounds ridiculous, but I honestly, sincerely felt like what I was watching wasn't *real.* I was legitimately waiting for the scene to cut to a shot of Joker just... staring into the middle distance... creating a cognitive world he could cope with after being broken by reality. I figured out eventually that I was supposed to take the ending at face value, but that was a wild ride, lemme tell you. Anyway, suffice to say Royal's Real ending was a lot more satisfying to me, even if Bokura no Hikari lacks that gorgeous leitmotif from Swear to My Bones that I adored so much in Hoshi to Bokura to. And as for the argument that Royal's new story and themes felt tacked on to what was already there, I get the argument, but I disagree. For me it seemed very much like both an escalation and a deconstruction of the established themes. It's easy to turn against a malevolent god. It's a lot harder to take back control from someone who genuinely only wants to make you happy. We've gone from: "Show your rebellion against the rotten adults!" to: "How much do you really value your autonomy? Did you want to be truly free, or did you just want the freedom to be happy?" And from: "Trust in your friends!" to: "How much do you really respect the people you love? Will you let them make their own decisions, or force them into what you believe is best?" It's a new layer, but they're the same themes, and I think that's fitting for the climax of a story. (Do I wish we'd been able to properly say goodbye to Sumire? Yes, absolutely, I think Atlus dropped the ball on that one. But honestly, I consider that to be a small issue in the grand scheme of things.) TL;DR, the Good Ending was objectively nice, but just didn't sit right with me. The Real Ending fixed that and, in my opinion, was overall better without creating any glaring new problems. So yeah, I'll take Royal's Real ending any day.
I think this is extremely subjective for all the reasons you stated in your video, but one of the main reasons I find P5R's ending to be far more fitting is simply the fact that, at the end of the day, they're not fighting some big evil deity of sloth who wants nothing more than to cast humanity into eternal servitude - because yeah, I want to fight that guy, there's no two ways about it. But after all of the terrible people the Phantom Thieves fought to take down for a 100 hours, at the end of the day, their last target is their school counsellor, and something about that just hits different. It's very telling, because as human beings, we're always our own worst enemies. I'd much rather fight a flawed human being than some unfathomably otherworldly entity. There's also something incredibly poetic about how, despite the fact that the Phantom Thieves deeply relied on each other and constantly bolstered one another, the only way they could keep from stagnating and truly moving on with their lives is by having to leave one another. I think P5R is the writers going back and adding what was missing from P5V. I think P5R is a story about hope and acceptance, and how life really is what it is, and that's neither a good or bad thing. People see it as tragic, and to a certain degree I understand why, but there was something hopeful about the way Joker chose to take the train by himself, in his final parting words with Sumire, in that glimpse of Akechi he caught through a train window that may or may not have been a trick of the light. P5V was a great game, but P5R left me feeling both hollowed out and extremely satisfied at the same time. Neither ending is without its flaws, but P5R did something beautiful for me, and I don't think any piece of media has ever made me feel as much as it did when I watched those credits roll for the first time. It easily elevated P5 as one of my favourite games of all time. So for me, P5R will always be vastly more impactful, because it feels so much more grounded in reality, bittersweet as it may be.
Vanilla ends the same way. In the truck with his friends, Ren is able to stick his head out and look into the world without having to hide behind the glasses. He embraces his true self thanks to the support of his friends. Meanwhile, Royal is about some lid going back in line, remembering his place. Really tired of ppl glorifying Royals ending bc apparently sad equals good. It's a garbage ending to a garbage game imo
My biggest problem with Royal hinges entirely on that one conversation with Akechi where he confirms that no, this isn't a false reality at all, Maruki literally does have the power to bring the dead back to life. In other words, this means that Makoto, Futaba, and Haru are all effectively re-murdering their own parents because apparently their own trauma-induced character growth is more important than any of their parents' lives? I spent hours waiting for the game to address this at any point, but instead we get almost the exact opposite. Maruki spends the entire palace begging to just talk things out and see if there's a way for them to reach a compromise, and all he gets from them in return is "Absolutely not. We don't negotiate with reverse terrorists. How dare you bring our parents back to life you monster." There might have possibly been a way to resolve the whole situation without violence where Maruki tries to use his powers to bring people back to life without overriding anybody else's free will, but the Phantom Thieves never even really try. If Atlus wanted to create a story where the main characters were so dedicated to their own values of free will that they're willing to sacrifice their own family to make it happen, then they should have actually committed to it, not dropped this "Oh by the way if we take down Maruki we'll be killing your friend's parents all over again" bombshell out of nowhere and then never brought it up again. The fact that no else ever comments on this fact again after this one conversation instead just sort of implies that Joker is intentionally keeping this information from his teammates because he's decided that his own ideals are more important than the lives or autonomy of anyone else. It's like he's chosen the bad ending from the original P5 all over again, except here it's treated as a mandatory part of the "good ending" instead. The writers should have just said that Maruki's reality was 100% fake all along, declaring otherwise just completely muddles an otherwise good storyline and introduces a ton of disturbing implications/dangling plot threads that really had no reason to exist in the first place.
Realistically, shouldn’t Maruki be arrested? I mean he psychologically corrupted so many of his patients, especially Sumire. He should’ve lost his medical license or something. But no, let’s let him off the hook free to be a cab driver? Also, why is Sumire taking on Kasumi’s appearance in that ending? That doesn’t make sense either. This ending works as dlc, not a direct chapter to the main story. After Yalda, this game felt like it was taking too long to end and retreading the same stuff you did RIGHT before this chapter-fighting a giant godly boss fight with new music interspersed in it, signifying an ending. What’s funny is I hated the original for shoehorning Yaldabaoth. But Royal made me realize that original ending was less egregious by comparison. By Maruki, I was ready for the game to end. I think they should’ve made this story take place between Okumura and Sae’s palace, but because of the way the game is designed, they can’t place it in that timeframe, so they tack it on at the end. First the “fake your own death” twist, then the Yaldaboath twist with people wanting to be controlled, and then ANOTHER twist with Maruki. This chapter overstayed it’s welcome by trying to take place right after that momentous boss fight with another boss who is the size of a skyscraper. The stakes of the fight don’t change, it’s just the same thing we had in the penultimate chapter but with a different theme. TL DR; Royal’s new chapter works best as a stand-alone dlc mission. Not right after the main story and not by changing the ending.
Despite of the Fantastic Final Boss fight in Royal, I absolutely hate its new ending cutscene, it just feel like a cheap rip-off of Vanilla P4's Ending. I mean, I get the whole thing about the individual maturity stuff, but they were still going to take the same ride of the Original Ending, and then Maruki is shoved in the Ending (strike 1), then once Joker arrives the station he encounters Sumire, who's pretty much acting just like at the start of the game, reminds you she exists. Then she pretty much just says k'bye and leaves (strike 2). And then the Akechi part that just contradicts all of the "bittersweet" justifications, by just undoing Akechi's death, when his death was the only true reason for making this Ending a "bittersweet" one (strike 3). Honestly, I never felt so apathetic and unfulfilled since I watched GOT's finale (yes, it's that bad). But at least this new ending taught me that "bittersweet" and tragic doesn't always equal good.
Interesting take you have there. I honestly think you’re being a bit melodramatic with that GOT comparison but I can understand where you are coming from, it isn’t as cohesive as the OG ending but to me it was much more relatable and with that it felt more like I can empathize with the PTs that life does have to go on and that it’s still possible to go on while staying connected with old friends even when accepting that people grow distant in time.
NO WAY this ending is as bad as GOT I agree that it lacks something, but it elevated some other points (it feels more realistic that you and your friends might go different ways, specially in the way that the members of the PT lived)
I feel that there should have been 2 bad endings I have to say I think the bad ending should have been changed if you do it at the second opportunity. Like the party have changed as people so their ideal world would change. I imagine this hypothetical second bad ending being one were Sumrie remains Sumrie and the phantom thieves have false memories of winning and by extension believe the new reality to be the original one they saved living in happy ignorance of the truth. What are your thoughts everyone ?
Through this window I like the original ending better. Doctor becomes a cabbie strikes me as odd. I respect cab drivers, I just don't see that happening. My buddy running like Forrest Gump doesn't inspire me. The good and bad ending in Vanilla both hit me. I can't feel the grey Royal ending but maybe I would if I actually played it.
I’ll be honest (and i’ll probably get a lot of hate for this) i personally thought that the vanilla final boss was so cheesy. The concept of defeating an all powerful god like being with the power of friendship has been overused. Royal on the other hand was fantastic. It kept me second guessing whether or not i was doing the right thing in reject a world where everyone can be happy. Maruki was great as antagonist. He’s far more interesting than Shido and Yaldabaoth because he’s not one dimensional. He truly believes that he’s doing the right thing.
I much prefer the individual take Royal took with the party members (after all P3 is my favorite for that reason). BUT having played vanilla, the changes made weren't enough to change my outlook on them and were also forced some times. The ending also feels like it down plays/ forgets what happened with the whole yaldabaoth thing. If it were in a different game or it were simply clearly divided like the journey and the answer I'd have enjoyed more... However, none of this fucking matters because of that shit with the ambiguous akechi death. Don't get me wrong. I love the character (and watched your whole video about him) but I just HATE when death is taken back. Specially when the original wasn't ambiguous. And it isn't even ambiguous really! If that wasn't him, then what was that? A joke? Imagine if it was revealed that no that wasn't him. What would be the purpose of that scene? Also I want explanations as to how the fuck he survived. And that invalidates the whole game to me and also made the credits song sound like the worst to me. Feels good to take this out of my chest.
Royals ending is more satisfying for all the characters, more cohesive with the themes of the game, keeps a sense of intrigue and mystery, and has a better message for it's audience. But damn, the vanilla game's end song is so much better. Do not like Royal's credit song.
According to atlus when i was in japan.. P5 royal is the complete version of the original p5.. I think p5 royal is the canon obviously because of the true ending that will lead to p5 striker
Don't be a Canon Crusader. Frankly, if be glad if I never had to hear about Maruki, Sumi or any of Royals nonsense ever again. I'm aware I'm in the minority, of course.
@@Ookamiryoshi Are you being serious? That's not how the real world works, ya know. You won't always have the support of friends, loved ones, etc. But even so, you have to continue to strive towards your goals because that's the right thing to do.
In my opinion royal did have the best ending hitting everyone with a snap back to reality, that not everything have a happy ending and separation and with a potential of not seeing all Akiras friends.
After giving it some thought, I agree with you that P5R has the better ending. While I miss the implied friend road-trip from the vanilla ending and it’s banger of a credits song, I also find the tone of royal’s more relatable. Somber and uncertain, yet hopeful- just like real life, which is fitting since getting this ending requires that you reject Maruki’s idealized cognitive world of illusion.
I still choose Maruki's offer. All that crap about self growth Is stupid. In the ideal perfect world you will get all your important growth experience in another way. In simple terms if I could wish anything into existence I would over a striving persevere life
Everyone is Maruki’s slave and his reality is his interpretation of a world without sadness. It’s literally the point that it isn’t perfect and people will never grow because with growing as a person comes pain and maruki would never allow that. Giving humanity’s free will to one god contradicts why the phantom thrives fought Yaldy
Thanks for putting up with my overanalyzing once again 😄
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Man, youtube reminded me of the premier and I opened it up to watch, but I fell asleep and my computer went to sleep mode as well, sorry :D
The best ending is the bad ending of P5r.
Maruki's calling card:
To Takuto Maruki:
Wishing excessively for everyone's happiness, you have committed the crime of creating a self-righteous reality.
However, we did not dwell on this false happiness, we wish to move forward, by overcoming this pain. Therefore, we cannot accept the salvation you advocate. We will steal your distorted desires. We will take back our future.
Signed, The Phantom Thieves of Hearts"
About the ambiguous fate of Akechi, someone on Tumblr edited that frame where he appears (lowering the brightness to see his face) and indeed, it's him. The guys in front of him also look exactly like the guys who were interrogating Joker. I don't think Shido's guys would've let their hitman go free so easily.
I fricking knew it😁😁😁😁😁😁
I would love to see that, can you send the link of that?
@@PhantomOtter Hey, I lost the link at this point (this was posted ages ago). But you can just do it yourself, just grab Photoshop o any other editing software.
@@vlombardo3982 ok, thanks!
@greatexplosionmurdergoddyn3608 try again and play a bit more with contrast, gamma, saturation and exposure
I will say that Persona 5 Royal's ending is a lot more thought provoking to me than vanilla Persona 5. When I saw Persona 5's ending at 2019, it gave me hope to find a group and to find a way to have my own place in society, but it was just that.
When I saw P5R's ending in 2020, it hit me like a truck. I heard the song over and over, and thought about what I experienced countless times, it made me realize that what I really wanted was to find a path that I can call my own, along with the people I love. And that it was okay to suffer and have my downs and ups, because I can't expect my life to be so stagnant all the time, eventually I have to move on, make my own choices and live the life I want to live.
In a way, Akechi's words in 2/2 struck very deeply with me. His willingness to go down his own path no matter what, no matter how much it hurts him or the people around him, just so that it is *his* path, and not the one that another person made for him, was something that I didn't know I needed to hear. Choosing what someone expects I would like isn't the way I would like to live, and if the path I choose involves suffering then that's just something natural.
Overall I prefer stories that don't show you a picture perfect happy ending, but the one that shows us how each person evolved and formed their own thoughts and decisions towards a better future. I like hopefulness, but I like it when it's one that shows you the reality of life with its losses and gains. Which is why Royal's ending showing you what each of the thieves lost and gained from their journey mattered so much to me. Because they still looked up and walked forward, no matter what.
Agree; narrative characteristics aside, Royal discussed tougher things. Also glad your takeaway from Akechi’s story was his willpower and individual self-respect, rather than the insane murderer part.
After I beat P5R and got the true ending I went to youtube to look up some of the other ones. One of the ones that hit me the hardest was where you agree to accept Maruki's false reality. In it, not only does everyone in the main cast get exactly the happy ending they thought they wanted, but the Phantom Theives all get to stay close together and happy forever. It's an ending that stings because not only is it the ending Maruki wanted but, on some small level, it's one the player likely wanted too. You want the best for these characters and to see them happy. You don't want the PTs to go their separate ways. Even though this game is practically longer than a semester in college, on some level you don't want it to end.
But it has to end. All phases of life eventually reach a climax and pass away, making room for new experiences and people to enter your world. The trap of Maruki's offer is a happily ever after coupled with a life of stagnation. It's nice to see the characters in such a (seemingly) happy and carefree position and life, but it's tainted with the inescapable feeling that all of this is just wrong. As much as the characters and the player may have wanted things to turn out like this, the final test of the story arc is being willing to let go of them.
I played vanilla p5 before the release of Royal, and really digged the ending. It seemed "appropriate" and "satisfying", though it also felt "safe".
Royal, on the other hand, challenges you to reflect about the P.T.'s actions and your own beliefs. Maruki is honestly a perfect final boss: a good person with good intentions that got misguided by trauma, and a character that feels insanely relatable. I honestly didnt want to fight him.
Vanilla's ending might feel better in a vacuum, but Royal's ending lingers on your mind for longer. It feels more real, relatable and honest.
Ps: I've been watching your videos for a while, but this is the first time I hear about your condition. I just want to say I admire your work and the effort you put in all your videos, despite the circumstances! :)
Excellent analysis. The only thing I want to add is that the P5 ending also has this angle of believing in humans, trusting that they _can_ build a future for themselves. After doing so much work to help humanity, Joker is faced with the awful truth that nobody ever wanted the PT's help. The way I see it, this realization makes Joker snap in the Bad Ending: he betrays and loses faith in humanity in response to it betraying _him_ , falling prey to the same corruption he fought against. Meanwhile, in the True Ending, Joker maintains his hopeful determination and faith that mankind can and will do better than Yaldabaoth thinks, in spite of confronting it at it's worst.
When you were talking about each PT's personal goals that they're working towards through the Confidant ranks and in post-game, it reminded me of a minor peeve I have with the game.
Haru wants to run a cafe, or start a small chain cafe, and we never get the option to tell her to talk to Sojiro, a guy who literally is already doing that, who has a strong, open, honest relationship with all of the PTs. Any time she asks Joker for help or expresses frustration with anything, it's always something that Sojiro would be better equipped to help with.
"I want to make better coffee." Talk to Sojiro, that's literally what he does.
"I want to grow better veggies." Talk to Sojiro, he knows his veggies since they're a big part of his curry. He knows when they're good, and probably has some knowledge of how to grow them.
"I want to be a better business leader as majority shareholder in Okumura Foods but I'm a high schooler and idk what I'm doing or who to trust." I'm a high schooler too, but you know who we know who runs a business? Sojiro, even though his business is smaller, he still has to know the basics of how businesses function and the things that need done. I'd imagine he's also not only trustworthy, but a pretty damn good judge of character, and can help her figure out who on the board is trying to manipulate her.
Haru would be *so* much better prepared to achieve literally any of her goals if we had the option to convince her to hire Sojiro as a retainer. She doesn't need him all the time, and he wouldn't be available all the time due to running LeBlanc, but that's fine. There's no reason she can't have him "on call" for whenever she needs advice. She's got the money to afford his help, and he'd probably make more money doing that than running the cafe (not that he needs it). Not to mention, we know he has a huge soft spot for Joker and his friends, all she would have to do is say "Would you be willing to..." and he'd already be thinking "yes" before hearing what she was about to ask.
I think there some interaction between her and Sojiro during her confidant arc at the beginning I think. But when you finish it all, it's pretty much revealed she was using her problems as an excuse to hang with Joker.
Haru cares about Joker more than anything and him giving her confidence is all that she really needs to take care of her problems
@@sor3999 There was. One of the first things that happens in her confidant is that she says, "I grew some vegetables; I want Sojiro's opinion on them." And Sojiro says they're impressive as homegrown things, but not actually all that good. To Haru, Sojiro is first and foremost a potential customer, not a mentor.
I had a similar problem, but not with Haru-- Morgana.
At any time, Joker could've taken Sojiro to a palace-- that's firmly established by the game. Anyone can enter the Metaverse so long as they're accompanied by someone with the app.
Sojiro can't hear Morgana, because he's never been introduced to Metaverse Morgana. Understanding Morgana doesn't require a persona-- merely introduction to Morgana talking to alter their cognition.
So at any time, Joker could've taken Sojiro into a palace for the sole purpose of allowing him to understand Morgana. He just doesn't, which seems really cruel to both Morgana and Sojiro.
@Dubiousmage On the other hand, Sojiro SUCKS at running a café-and admits it.
Consider how few customers you ever see in Leblanc. The café has five booths and ten stools, yet we never see more than three customers at a time. Some days, you don’t see a single one from dawn ‘til dusk. He mentions prices at a few points, and it’s standard fare.
Frankly, how the man’s affording to keep the lights on is beyond me!
However, I still think Haru could have gained a lot from at least knowing the logistic ins-and-outs of a “how the hell does this break even” café from our man, Mr. Hoo Boy himself.
Persona 5 Royal's ending is just way more personal for me and hits way harder for me as well, I played through the Royal content when I needed to play it the most, while playing it I was dealing with a very treasured friend's (the very first friend I made in college) dropping off of college, I was trying my best to cope and move on with what happened for months, I was able to relate to Ann the most in Royal since her wish was just her being able to spend more time together with Shiho, I thought to myself, if I were in Maruki's reality I think the wish he'll grant me right now is me and my college friend still together in college. So yeah I'm definitely called out while playing through Royal lel. Then when I was about to finish Royal, on the part where they all rejected Maruki's reality, it really inspired me to also move on with what happened, seeing how everyone is prepared to face the harsh reality they're in really gave me the motivation to move on, and it really means a lot to me. I had to learn that people come and go the hard way and it's really depressing, but I guess there's always more opportunities to meet new people and form new connections in the future, and it's not like we're gonna stop being friends after that. Overall Royal's ending is just way too personal for me that's why I prefer it over Vanilla
Never fails to amaze me how you can break these games down to analyse their most notable elements, and communicate it concisely in a video like this. Really cool to listen to as always Lady!
For the giggles, I decided to go for that bad ending on my playthrough, never felt so much regret for doing so. Reloaded for that friendship immediately!
I'm somewhat indifferent on which ending is better, probably because I didn't get the chance to see P5R's first hand on my own playthrough, but I appreciate that Atlus even pumped in an extra 30 hours of content, and that they made Akechi in to something... oddly likeable in his own jerkish way.
Awww thanks so much TKN! I'm glad my points are getting across!
I did the same thing! (I actually tend to go for the bad endings first in persona games LOL)
I think seeing how much the bad endings fly in the face of each game's themes helps make the good endings just that much more meaningful.
P5R VASTLY improved on Akechi compared to the original game since I got a whole new voluntary confidant. And the sheer talent and nuance of Robbie Daymond's performance really sold his character to me. Speaking of Robbie, super excited to hear him in a certain other game coming out in a couple months :P
LadyVirgilia
Oh right. CS4 and Lloyd Bannings.
The one thing you didn't mention was the nature of the choice to join the bad guy. In P5 it's ... there. You can join Yaldabaloth. But I don't think people do other than to see that ending. In P5R there is a genuine case for accepting Maruki's reality. It's the wrong choice, but it's a choice worth thinking twice about. Also the other part of the ending is the death of Goro Akechi - which has far far more weight in P5R even if you only make it to the P5 ending in P5R because he has a real social link. (Also Akechi shooting "Joker" in the head has a massive weight for the same reason in P5R when in P5 he was just the obvious traitor forced on us).
11:19
LV, I believe it’s more than just survivor’s guilt, it could also be an inferiority complex, self-loathing, possibly suicidal thoughts.
Why else would Sumi run a red light on the street?
While I do agree with you that she did did seem to suffer those things, I feel that incident was more simple. Her complex hit a fever pitch, and she was desperate to flee from her sister (the source of her insecurities, and the resulting tunnel vision left her blind to her surroundings.
@@PhoenixBlazer39 right. Sumi deals with all that as well, but as you stated the biggest pain that she deals with is how she robbed her sister, who she thought was on a road to success and that when all was settled she didn't deserve that.
Those are like symptoms of her survivors guilt.
It would probably start as imposter syndrome leading into survivor's guilt.
Man, I do appreciate the even-handedness of this analysis. I had a really hard time with Royal's ending, which broke some of my favorite things about the ending of vanilla P5, but time and space (and your trenchant discussion about thematic consistency, even if I do still argue that Royal seriously messes with the pacing of the extremely well-plotted Hero's Journey of the original game) have helped me appreciate it more. I read Royal's ending as a tragedy compared to the original, but there's a lot of merit to a good bittersweet tragedy, and this one is well-earned.
Interestingly, I'm not sure if it would feel so very bitter to me if I hadn't loved vanilla P5's ending SO MUCH, and I don't think I'd have loved the original ending so much without my experiences with P3 and P4. Throughout the game, P5 feels so much like a thematic conversation with P3 and P4 to me (which is a whole separate essay)--but one thing audience members have learned across the series, if they've played through it all, is that there are rules to Persona games. Igor is your friend, you must gather up the power of your social links to defeat the god bent on destroying humanity, and the protagonist always, always leaves at the end. Those are the rules. Doesn't matter that you love your friends enough to seal away a god with those bonds, you still have to go home at the end.
One of the best things about P5 is how it keeps to that formula but also messes with it both for and against the protagonist. The Yaldabaoth reveal wouldn't be half so impactful if we didn't know from the start that Igor was our friend. And the end of the game feels like such an impossible TRIUMPH, not just in the face of a year of rumors and ostracization and struggle, but in the face of the Great Seal falling asleep on a rooftop and the goodbye cries of everyone you love as you pull away on a train. The protagonist always leaves at the end and P5 is no different, but this time, THIS TIME, after three games, he's finally found and earned that loophole. He leaves, but he gets to take his friends with him. They've literally changed the game.
At the end of Royal, you-the-protag sit on the train alone with your sleeping cat, still wearing your glasses-mask, with memories and the hope of text messages and the hint that maybe, MAYBE Akechi is still out there somewhere to keep you company. So Royal feels like a tragedy, after that--because you COULD have kept your friends. The end of vanilla P5 seems to represent a commitment to staying together even as they move forward to more mundane struggles. It could be argued that the Royal ending is more realistic, because after all, your friends were just going to go home anyway, and it's better to face the pain of the truth that people grow apart than try to hide from it (hello, Royal thematic consistency!), and I won't say that's untrue, but that's never how it felt to me. It always felt more like the Royal ending was a price the protagonist paid. Maybe he's paying happily for the fact that his friends have now learned to face their trauma and stand on their own two feet without support. Maybe he's paying for the weakness of almost allowing the world to fall to false constructed happiness in the first place. But it feels like a price.
I do really appreciate getting to hear someone who really liked Royal's ending analyze these themes like this! It gives me some food for consideration, and it's nice to know I'm not the only one who (way, way over-)analyzes these games like this. I'll probably end up checking out more of your Persona analysis vids after this!
It really didn't feel like you're losing your friends in Royal though, at least not to me. Sure they don't drive you home, but that doesn't remove the possibility of the friends reuniting again. They can still easily visit each other in their free time and I have no doubt they will. They even joke that if Joker doesn't come to visit from time to time, they'll just hunt him down in his home town if they have to. None of them have any intention of letting these friendships die. They've just come to realize that they need to focus on themselves for awhile. Sure they won't be together all the time anymore, but those friendships will last forever and they will find ways to stay in each others lives, even as they all walk their own paths. You don't save the world together...twice...and then just walk away from each other, never to reconnect again and that's especially true for Joker and whomever he romanced. I didn't see the ending of P5R as a "Goodbye forever." , but more of a "See you guys later." As for the glasses, he does take them off in the final scene. So, he's still discarding his mask.
your comment is really well written and i mostly agree with your sentiments -- but he takes off his glasses in the royal ending as well
I like the bit you mentioned about the rules, because technically, its meta commentary.
When the game ends, you have to say goodbye to your friends, no matter how much you love them, the story and the game are over, just like the protagonist's journey, so, we gotta leave, the main character must return home and you must return to the real world.
With that said, I think you over exxagerate. Perhaps its because I've had to deal with growing apart from my friends, but I don't feel like Joker has payed any price in Royal. Even Akechi is alive! Sure, you have to say goodbye, but everyone is stronger and better, and none of them will ever forget your time together.
Even that is being dramatic, since you meet again 3 months later for the plot of Strikers to happen and when that year ends, Joker will be 18 and go to university, what he does from then on depends on "your Joker" your headcanon.
I get why a lot of people say they like the original ending better than the Royal true ending, but as sweet as that one is (and as much as I love the song "With the Stars and Us"), I think I prefer the Royal ending. Just like you said, it focuses more on the Phantom Thieves as individuals, and to me, that shows how they'll still be connected to each other no matter where they are in the world, which is how good friends should be. Joker would've had to say goodbye to them, anyway, since they'd all have to return to Tokyo. Besides, even after he takes the train home in Royal, I imagine they all took that van out to visit him the first chance they got. Knowing them, that wasn't the last time they all got together before Strikers.
Ngl saying goodbye to everyone on the final day got me up all choked up and sob a bit this game like all the rest really know how to tug at your heartstrings
P5R's theme kinda remind me of The Answer's own themes, with how Akechi is reminiscent of ??? (altough maybe alive but you get tue idea) and how the casy is going to move forwards with their future but still keep tabs on each other (Arena Ultimax for example)
True, I loved the answer, but it works so much better there simply because Minato is dead.
Honestly I love how the third semester incorporates Persona 3 and 4’s themes as well, with many of the phantom thieves having to cope with dead loved ones, and facing the truth instead of a false reality.
I rarely leave comments on videos these days, but this one left such an impression on me, that I just have to. Hello, Ms. Virgilia, I've been enjoying your Trails-related content immensely since this year amidst the current situation, and as you see by my profile picture, I love Persona 3, it's my favorite game. I am also currently playing through Sky 3rd (once that's done, that's 7 games down and I can finally get to Cold Steel 3!!!), so you naming Ren Kevin just warmed my heart.
Anyway, regarding this video, it's very interesting how each version of P5 resonated with me at different times in my life. I played the original P5 just as it released in Japan, and it's themes about coming together to face the world spoke to me a lot since I was starting an entirely new stage of my life where I was in a completely new environment and barely knew anyone. So gradually making connections while remembering the union of the Phantom Thieves is a memory that will stay with me. Five playthroughs later, and while I still appreciate the original game's placement in my life in that respect, Royal's themes speak to the current me. Like yourself and others, I've also experienced and lost along the way since I played the original all those years back. And like the thieves in the game, I often think about the what ifs and should haves.
But whenever I watch those epilogue scenes, by listening to your personal connection with the game, and when I think of games like Royal, Dragon Quest XI, and of course Trails (particularly Azure), I remember that in this present moment there are people with me, dreams I have forged, goals I am setting out towards. And if the team at Atlus' goal was to help remind us players to embrace and be proud of the present we created and live in, I think they did a very nice job.
Ms. Virgilia, thank you so much for making such a well-thought out and thought provoking video. I haven't felt this impacted from one for a long time, it really made my week. I look forward to your upcoming content in the future, and thank you also for all the wonderful contributions you have made to both the Trails and Persona community.
I had to laugh (in a positive way!) when you started the conclusion with "Well...neither is", because that is what I thought when I saw this video. I thought "Wait, isn't this very subjective in this case?" but clicked anyways, because I enjoyed all your other analysis videos so much, that I even recommend them on my IG and annoy my friends with it. A game like this deserves depths anyalsis.
Like you said, for your own very personal reasons you enjoy P5R more! To me, P5 hit home like a game probs never has.
I value friendship and teamwork a lot, which is what got me so into P5 from the beginning. Like a lot of people I've been an outcast, bullied and went through middle and early high school basically friendless. It only stopped after school where I was elected as the leader of a dance team in my city for several years. Coming from school and being able to go see what felt like my people was what got me through the last couple of school years. From then onwards, I got the courage and formed a tutoring system at my school after much talking to the teachers. It went so well and I was so glad I could lead that for the last 2 years of school as well. Since life isn't a video game, my school experience and mental health didn't magically change, but these people really pulled me through it. Sadly we disbanded after fights happened between members in late 2018 (again, life is no cool game) so it's just a bittersweet memory by now; but I am still friends with some of the members and I cannot deny that they helped me through times.
That might be why the P5 ending had me sobbing and resonates so much within me. Akira/Ren/Joker/however you call him gets this false probation, is seen as an outcast and lowkey unknowingly gathers fellow outcasts in and around his school. From that onwards everyone betters themselves as individual through the group. They together face those issues and the one that is being hurt from it can get through it stronger, since they've their friends by their side who can feel the same way with the other issues in the game. Which all leads up to the end when we've to fight Shido. It's done together, once more, despite that it's actually only Akira's and Haru's personal problem. It will affect all of them if he becomes prime minister, but other than that it's only those two - and they still do it as a group as well until the very end.
The main point I got froom P5's ending is: That despite everything you've been through or go through, as long as you have those important to you by your side, it's not as dark as it may seem and not all hope is lost.
So all in all it is probably just from the type of persona we are and our experiences we've gathered in life so far what we felt was more satisfiying. I'm gonna say I really enjoyed the whole thing with Maruki and this "fake" reality. We all can name something we wish to have from the past. Like right now typing this comment makes me miss my group, I recently lost two very close friends since they weren't health anymore, etc etc. It's really tempting, but I like how once more the game tries to tell you what should matter more.
In all honesty, I like both! I guess just everyone or at least a lot of people will favour one due to how they are.
This is probably hands down the most personal and one of the longest comments I have ever written, but I just enjoyed your analysis videos so much and am still kind of overwhelmed I found something like P5. Good shit.
Vanilla P5, no question.
But P5R with it's "everyone is leaving, not just the MC" ending, deserves credit for stopping just short of outright stating that what makes P5s original ending so good is that it won't be recaptured.
Is the only situation where I prefer Vanilla true ending and "Star and us" ending theme than Royal's one.
And fits more with the main theme of the game revolution, freedom and challenging fate.
I would prefer the "follow your heart and dreams" theme for P6, since fits the green color motif also representing life and hope.
And vanilla P5, follows like P3 and all Persona endings prior, after the "journey" ends, they still remain as friends. While in P5R, I happy for them, following their goals and dreams, they felt like more acquaintances than real friends and Sumire goodbye scene was lackluster, even worst if she was your gf in the game. 😅
P4 train scene hits your harder and is more emotional and bittersweet + Teddie's final monologue about "even apart, they will always be connected"
and then protag looks to his photo with his friends + returning to Inaba during Summer break is a wholesome ending.
Like Vanilla P5 ending is wholesome and earned.
Though I adore Royal for the themes and complexities it introduces, I find that the original climax and resolution resonates more with my experience and ideals. The whole game up to that point illustrates the sheer evil that systems of hierarchy perpetuate the detriment of those who are disadvantaged, exploited, and marginalized. We see as the unheard children of society decide to take a stand against the bastards that rule their lives and end their oppression.
However, they come to the realization that targeting individuals isn't the solution: it is the system itself that imprisons the people and tells them that is for the best. Even when no one else believes in them, they come face to face with the God of Control and fight against all odds. Only together, with the people crying out in their favor, do the phantom thieves have the power to summon Satanael and shoot God in the head.
And in this world of ours, where the poor and marginalized suffer while the rich and powerful govern with a shit eating grin, seeing a story where rebels forge bonds through adversity, fight for radical change, and actually win, well, it gives me hope.
To quote Mona, "Soon a new world will come. One where mankind isn't held captive. The world will shine brightly as long as you hold hope in your hearts."
Man PR5's ending is going to make going into scramble awkward!
Scramble is only going to be a sequel to the Vanilla, not the Royal. But what I wish for is a game where we play as Akechi. It would be interesting and fun
@@kronkbonk2930 nope i think p5 royal is tge canon.. Because according to atlus when i was in japan p5 royal is the complete version of the original p5.. P5 royal they change the true ending that will lead us to p5 striker which is very obvious.. Some people in google they can't accept that p5 royal is the Canon version.. They keep on insisting that vanilla p5 is the Canon.. Only atlus can answer this question.. But if you played both version the answer is already obvious.. I had the feeling that some fans are Angry that p5 had a new and improved version, they don't want to spend another 60$ ...
@@MrBenedick14 The original is canon to Strikers. It’s two separate canons. We can tell because there’s not even a single reference to Royal anywhere. They never acknowledge Sumire, they never acknowledge Maruki, they never acknowledge Akechi’s surprise resurrection, only to realize he would die again when Maruki’s reality collapsed.
@@pyrocinematics6649 If I remember correctly there's some references to royal like ryuji referencing his and makoto's showtime and a line that haru says in the endgame
Not really. I've played Strikers and while there are no overt references to Royal, nothing about Strikers contradicts Royal or vice-versa. It's just a similar situation with Persona 4 Arena and Persona 4 Golden, where the former project canonically takes place after Golden, but because it came out first or was put in development first, there's no actual content from Golden available in that game. However, the immediate follow ups, Arena Ultimax and Persona Q are written with Golden being the canon version in mind.
With Strikers, it's very much written to be a follow up to P5 and nothing more. People misinterpret what Omega Force said when they said it was a follow up to the original game. They never actually said it was only canon to the vanilla game. And even then, the place the Phantom Thieves are at at the beginning of Strikers does not contradict with the plans they have made in Royal's True Ending. Even Ann being around makes sense if you think about how she probably is putting off studying overseas for after her graduation. You can, in fact, go from one to the other without too much mental gymnastics to make it work.
Basically, what I'm trying to get across is that Royal is the definitive version, as stated by the developers, but Strikers by necessity has to be able to be its own thing considering it was made by another company and was in development at the same time as Royal and only released a few months after Royal in Japan. Trying to put more explicit Royal elements into Strikers was simply not feasible with how games are made over there in Japan. And so don't be surprised if a potential sequel to Strikers ends up having more elements from Royal included, including Sumire and maybe Akechi.
Nice video, i liked your analyses. I wanted to add that asking "which is BETTER?" is such a dumb thing that humanity needs to stop asking, especially when it comes to art or media. It is subjective. humans are all different and each will find a different ending better. i personally accepted maruki's offer, but I wouldn't judge anyone for choosing a different one, i would however defend my position aggressively to any one who challenged me and i would attack back as a reaction.
I admit that while I love both and overall P5R's ending is the one I like better, the final cutscene in P5 is my personal favorite mainly due to nostalgia and other things. Though I will say you've given me a new appreciation for P5R's ending cutscene
Amazing work on this video by the way! My ending opinion is very simple: I prefer Royal because of the more tragic air and the mystifying ambiguity of the coming days. Also I think "Our Light" can be interpreted as Joker coming to terms with the loss of Akechi and that's art to me.
Honestly, I just like the original ending way, way more.
I completely agree, but I treat Royal as it's own thing/a seperate story ark. Not as a replacement.
@@Ookamiryoshi Splish splash your opinions are trash.
12:04 This were my thoughts, as well. I felt that Goro suffered from rough writing, but the devs did manage to show a boy who just wanted someone to love him.
My only problem with Royal's ending is the final cinematic where before the protag gets on the train, he bumps into Sumire and she has her ponytail tied up even though the story went over what that symbolized. so for her hair not to be down is a really inconsistent/confusing detail that just didn't sit well with me.
Not to mention that she was not with the gang at the end in the car made her also feel rather distant instead of being a new ally.
if you maxed Sumire she will be open to wearing her hair up again if i remember correctly. Yeah maybe she should have been in the car with the rest of the crew but she wasn't really a phantom thief which is why they didn't put her there.
Sumire keeping her hair up is a sign of resolve, shown at the last rank of her confidant. She doesn't tie it up because she wants to be Kasumi, but because she accepts she needs to work for their dreams. Think of it as a self reminder of her sister
I much prefer Royal's ending. The decision with Maruki is a little more iffy than the clear cut decision with the god of control. We've all been there in moments of weakness wishing for our pain to go away and be erased. However, the game heavily implies that the reality Maruki would create would effectively remove their humanity. Experiencing pain and hardship is what allows us to grow as people. And so in the royal ending I do love how everyone is splitting up to pursue their own goals in life. Something a lot of media does not portray is the passage of time and how people come in and out of your lives eventually as things change. The ending wants you to believe that yes hardship sucks and can be painful but overcoming that and foraging your own future will make you a happier, stronger, and more fulfilled person than the alternative of Maruki's future of staying stagnant in your wishful desires never experiencing failure.
Regardless of what is the best ending, I think Maruki is one of the best Persona antagonists.
My biggest and really only issues with Royal were, the ending cutscene and the talk about separation from between PT's. But mainly the conversation, while the cutscene sucks in comparison to the vanilla one, withou the previous conversation the thought of them separating wouldnt even cross my mind, but the game deliberately goes out of its way to force this resolution of theirs upon us even if it doesnt make any sense withing their character. For example Ann leaving abroad, less then a year after her horrible experiences and after she found the place where she belongs, she immidiately leaves it behind. The way its setup and what it means is just terrible to me, especially considering majority of the news are barely anything out of the ordinary, like Makoto and Haru finding their own places to live.
I simply did not believe in the bonds as protrayed by P5R ending and that just crushes me because thats what Persona is about to me.
Regardless great analysis, its always fantastic to see through lenses of someone else :)
I love talking about this, do you have a Discord channel?
That's a fair take! Though of course, I can't say I agree, since I think each character's updated resolve in P5R shows actual individual growth on his or her own end. But then again, I'm of the opinion that the bonds shown in Royal are even more meaningful *because* they know they don't need to be together in order to still support one another. That's due to my own personal life experience though, since the friends who have been my biggest support system over the years have, more often than not, been separated by distances of thousands of miles~
But it's as you say- it's always interesting to hear someone else's perspective!
And yes, I have a joint discord server that's always in my video descriptions ^^ Here's a link: discord.gg/96SQABN
@@LadyVirgilia Ah, missed the discord, I shall join you there presently :D
I was never a fan of the no matter how far apart we are we will always be friends. Friends want to spend time with each other, they want to talk and have fun, they want to experience stuff together, in whatever form available. R is pushing their future over their current lifes, over their current relationships. It hardly feels justified or correct given that majority of the cast are still highschoolers, at that point hardly anyone has their life together or life goals properly set. Having a reliable group of friends that you can trust and that has helped you overcome what amounts to life changing world shattering troubles, is far more important imo.
It is clear that they pushed the new lesson over the bonds, given how much emphasis they put on them going their own ways and focusing on their future.
To give a specific example that I just cant forgive, I will again use Ann. Given that the MC can be in a relationship with Ann for about a year now, isnt she a horrible person for deciding to just go abroad and follow her career (at 17 mind you and for no reason whatsoever) without even talking it over first? Its as if the writers automaticaly expect that the player and Joker would be ok with that. Thats not the character having more control, its just forcing them apart for drama's sake, as her resolution has been same by the end of the social link, now its just with the aditional, unneccessary and out of character separation.
The tone is simply all wrong to me, its as if they are ending their friendships, severing their bonds, rather then gaining strength from them, moving on from their past and looking solely to the future rather then learning and accepting it, abandoning their place to belong to join the cruel reality. I get that is the point, but the question is why is it neccessary. And it just isnt to me, it feels hamfisted in for the sake of justifying the ending and the message.
Sorry for the long post :D
I do understand why some, you included prefer the Royal ending, I suppose it just comes down to the mindset and expectations as with most things :)
@@KaiSaeren as a person who has also been greatly impacted by friendships hundreds of miles away from me I’m greatly saddened that they tried to go this direction in P5R
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It isn’t that I don’t believe friendships can work or are that they’re less meaningful when so far away but as someone that’s always lived through that I loved so dearly the thought of having a group of friends that close that are actually near me, and with the way P5R ended it just felt hollow
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The character motivations for a lot of the stuff too don’t add up
Ryuji in base game made a point that he doesn’t belong with the track team anymore and that you as well as the rest of the team were the people he belonged with, I fully believe him wanting to get PT for his leg but the fact that he wants to rejoin the track team doesn’t sit well with me.
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Haru and Makoto getting their own places shouldn’t be painted as a huge deal tbh, as so long as they stay in the city, even if in a different district they’re still in train distance
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Ann going abroad by itself doesn’t feel out of place, but when it’s for as long as she’s doing it, it does. I can fully picture her going over summer break but I can’t see her wanting to leave the thieves behind for a whole year, I’d think she’d want that home base of acceptance
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Futaba starting to go to school is chill, as well as Yusuke not going anywhere because it just makes sense
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Them taking away the road trip at the end will never not make me mad though
I can see why people would prefer the Royal ending, as it presents thought-provoking themes on the nature of individuality and happiness, however I do prefer the original ending with Yaldabaoth as the final enemy. It falls more in line with the journey prior. Teenagers rise against the injustices of society, gradually facing antagonists of greater scope and influence, until they are faced with a literal God of Control-the ultimate representation of social injustice. This wraps up the archetypal Hero’s Journey that was built upon organically throughout the game. It makes sense.
When we, the player, are faced with yet another antagonist in Maruki, the story thematics can be interpreted as taking a complete 180 (so to speak). What was the point of fighting the God of Control? His existence as an enemy seems invalidated. And therefore not necessary. (I believe that story beats should serve an explicit purpose in any overarching narrative. If there’s no actual purpose to a story beat, then why is it even included in the narrative?).
While a very human and well-written ‘enemy’ for the Phantom Thieves, Maruki doesn’t exactly fall in line with the theme of teenagers rising against social injustice. It’s more of a human battle vs. Maruki as an individual, and not vs. society as a whole-the latter being the overarching theme thus far. This is why enemies up until this point seem cartoonishly evil; they almost have to be, to represent the evils of a corrupt society. The more human they are, the more the conflict shifts from a man vs. society conflict to a man vs. man conflict. Not that one type of conflict is better than the other, it just depends on which one is being focused on in the narrative, P5’s primarily being man vs. society.
As someone who played both games at their respective launch dates, this is something I immediately noticed upon completing Royal. Although a beautifully written story arc, I do think it deserves to be-and could even be unpacked more-as its own standalone story in a new Persona installment. Not tacked on to a cohesively concluded narrative in P5.
These are the exact thoughts I had when I played P5R the first time! Having not played the original, I was taken aback by the thematic shift of Maruki's storyline going from fighting the impersonal God of Control who represented all the corruption in society to fighting a delusional scientist who has well-intentioned and understandable yet extreme motives. It didn't quite feel like a natural progression of the conflict. While I agree that the third semester is amazingly well written, it felt more like an extra storyline or a sequel than a conclusion. Still one of my favorite games!
@@Naoto-kun1085 wholeheartedly agree! when I wrote this almost a year ago I wasn’t sure if people had the same feelings; I fell in love with the original P5 and this was kind of a rant of my distaste for some of the Royal additions (it’s still a good game though!). I’m glad to see that my thoughts hit home for some people. Cheers!
@@Codsniper52 I feel like it would've made more sense to swap Maruki and Yaldabaoth's levels? Like have Maruki's Palace come BEFORE Yaldabaoth's.
I don’t know if you’ll see this but I just want to say I just beat p5 royal recently for the first time and I’ve been absolutely loving your videos and the detailed analyses you provide. I know I’m about 8 years late to the party but I’m glad to discover this channel. Please keep up the good work, I pray you stay in good health.
See, I like literally everything about the P5R ending more than the original.. EXCEPT FOR THE FINAL ANIME CUTSCENE. It just felt off that Joker would take a taxi ride from Maruki to the subway instead of having one last hangout with his homies. I think a little cameo where Maruki is seen at a stop light and they share a few words before the light goes green would've hit much harder, and after all we went through with Sumire? I feel like there should've been more with her. I also REALLY dislike the "omg is Akechi actually alive uwu???" tease at the end as it feels like Atlus was to scared to commit to killing off a fan favorite character and wanted to leave it ambiguous... which expands to all media that does fake out deaths, I just hate that trope in general. One I can deal with but TWO? Idk man it just feels like you're trying to hard at that point. This is also more of a personal take but I just like With The Stars and US a lot more than I did Our Light. Don't get me wrong, Our Light is still a masterpiece and one of the best songs to ever be composed like... ever... even when looking outside of the context of video games (like most of the Persona ending themes) but man something about With The Stars and Us just gives me chills everytime I think of that chorus... it just hits me so much harder than Our Light did.
Memories of You is still best song in the series, I will fight you on this and you will lose because you objectively have just the wrong opinion if you say otherwise, this is not a joke, I will find you.
What bugs me about the Royal ending is how they treated sumire's scene. Sure, your video honestly made have a better opinion on the Royal ending, but the sumire scene was so small. She was a main focus of the new semester along with akechi but the fact that you dont even get to say good bye the day before and then you just happen to meet her on the train station was bad. Hell not even a text before hand. The scene itself feels like it was pasted near the end of the production of the anime cutscene and bam done. They honestly should've added sumire in the van along with the rest of the cast, but its left a bit ambiguous even though we know she will want to pursue Kasumi and her dream but the lack of a good bye makes it feel bland or empty.
my exact thoughts!
honestly, i prefer this way... sumire was never a true friend of the pt's, she only had relevance during the whole game because she had a crush on joker and pursued him until the end (and was also, maruki's first patient). but even preventing maruki's reality, she still... acted like her sister, she still wanted to be like kasumi (even if she doesn't say clearly). not having her there shows the fact she was never a close friend for them, but still had a special place for joker
@@abigailfn I have to strongly disagree with you there.
I will give you that she should not be in the van because she was kind of like a add on in regards to the pt's, but she was set up to be way more to joker (and she was more to me in my playthrough) and this ending did her dirty
I like it, it's intentional. So far up to that point it's all been long somber goodbyes. After having spent a good portion of the last semester of the game interactioning with her it's supposed to be a bit of irony that she is just casual says bye like that, the idea is supposed to be that nothing needs to be said. It's also supposed to be a bit hopeful, reminding you or the player character that's not actually end and they will probably see each other again.
I enjoyed my time with Royal so much. I loved playing through Maruki's palace. But I thought that narratively, vanilla had the tighter ending. It felt like a true culmulation to all the narrative threads and themes that had precedded it. Royal felt like a sequel, something set apart that explored themes that built on the the conclusion of vanilla. It deserved to be a new game, set after vanilla rather than a part of it.
Another insightful analysis video. Here's my perspective. I'm a veteran Persona fan and played 3, 4 and their respective remakes. However, I skipped Persona 5 Vanilla due to lack of PS5s and skipped straight to Royal. For the most part, I enjoyed everything. Maruki as an antagonist is so multi-faceted, so morally grey, and a much better character than "pure evil" Shido.
However, when it came to the ending, the saying goodbyes to all Confidants and the ending cinematic, I felt ripped off. Disappointed. For one thing, Sumire. She was just gone. Nowhere to be seen in Kichijoji. I remember walking everywhere in Tokyo looking for her. Nope. Not there. Then there was the train ending. Okay, the Phantom Thieves were there. What? They're being tailed? They're gonna try to lose them? Great. Maruki's a taxi driver? That's nice. So, where are the goodbyes? What? A quick "bye" at the train station?? What the h*ll?? That's it?? Oh there's Sumire... wait, she's gonna barely pretend you don't exist? THIS ISN'T WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR!!
Look. I love the Persona series. The endings of 3 and 4 have been seared into my mind permanently as the greats of video games. I can recall with perfect clarity Aigis comforting Arisato Minato as he closes his eyes to rest as the rest of SEES rush up to them. I can never forget the heartfelt goodbyes the rest of the Investigation Team shout to Narukami Yu as his train departs Inaba. They showed the clear camaraderie, the bonds they have forged with each other over the ordeal of the past year. So, when I finished the True Final Ultimate ending of Persona 5 Royal, I was utterly underwhelmed by what I got. Joker deserved more than a quick "bye" at the train station. We players deserved more than that.
And then I saw the True ending of Vanilla Persona 5. That's then I *knew* I was ripped off. The Phantom Thieves were there in the van, waiting for Joker. They then point out the cops whose feelings were hurt is still tailing Joker, trying to find a charge to stick to him. By rights they should all be laying low until the heat goes off and any conspicuous activities like gathering in a broken down van in the middle of Shibuya should be a no-go. But they do anyway, because it doesn't matter what other people think, as long as they are okay with themselves. Even though they have to say goodbye to each other, they still have time for one last road trip and that, is a beautiful twist compared to the irrevocable separation the previous teams had to endure. In a final icing on the cake, Morgana steals the cops' spark plug, fixing their van and sticking it to rotten adults in one swoop, just another day with the Phantom Thieves.
Keep in mind that in Royal's ending, the Phantom Thieves were practically surrendering to the pressure of those corrupt cops. Slinking around with decoys, cutting goodbyes short just to avoid the police that they had no problem defying in the Vanilla ending? No. That's a regression. You could have kept the road trip ending and it still would have made sense even in the face of the Phantom Thieves disbanding to pursue their own dreams. Add Sumire to the van trip, let the player say goodbye to Maruki the day before (where he can spell out the implications of his taxi job better than subtext) and just let Akechi go already. He's not the first social link to die. (Remember Akari in Persona 3?) Persona 4 had perfected the "goodbye" formula already, why fix what ain't broken? As a result, Royal's ending felt neutered. Most of what made it were there, but it lacked the feels to truly make it potent.
I never played Persona 5, only Royal, so from my perspective, its ending feels like a natural extension of the themes seen in the base game. Since I wasn't really able to see the original ending before the Royal one just due to how things lined up, it felt kind of unsatisfying to leave off on the note it did. It's kind of like how P4G added the extra scenes at the end of the game that wasn't there before. To me, it made perfect sense to expand upon what you're truly fighting for when it comes to facing corruption, and there are times where your own resolve, and maybe even morals, positions, and motives will be tested. P5 seemed to paint a very clear picture of where the Phantom Thieves were objectively right basically at every turn, but Royal legitimately posed hard questions the base game never dared to ask. To me, that's a perfect way to finish off the game, and the antagonist they added was a near-flawless and natural addition in my opinion.
While I am still curious enough to see the new content myself, I get the feeling that P5R's new ending and themes were written to countermand the idea of a second run through the game, where you think "this time, it'll be perfect". No, and that's okay too. At some point, the adventure comes to a definitive end, and it's time to move on.
Perhaps I'm overthinking it?
For context, it took me not just 100 hours, but over two years to finish the game. I played it with my family watching. I have a feeling they are not up for retreading 89% of the same ground as before for another 2 years. I don't blame them
Honestly absolutely hate how Royal just does 180 on the vanilla story and goes like "yeah, your friends are unimportant (except akechi), screw them" and the ending is just the final nail in that coffin.
I like both endings, but if i have to choose, i prefer P5R for one only reason: After 230 living with all this guys, don´t want say goodbye, instead, i just want to keep playing and seing Phantom thieves adventures. But, know what? Every adventure in life has and end, and same as the characters, if i want grow up, i have to leave, move forward and pursue my own objetives. For a moment, i feel like i was part of Phanthom Thieves and i´m saying goodbye too. It´s sad, but also i´m happy because i keep with me all the lessons i learn with this people.
So, i think the final message in the game is: Stop playing, stop living in confort, doesn´t matter what happened in the past, be brave, go outside and take your dreams. After all, you have friends who support you, right? So, you know, wake up, get up, get out there, if you believe, life will change and now is your time to create rivers in the desert. At least that is what i think.
Oh, sorry for the bad english, this is not my native languaje. Also, i hope you understood my comment.
I personally lean more towards the original ending it really seems to encapsulate the phantoms friendship and resolve to live as they want regardless of society's approval. But the Royal ending does show the phantoms' individuality more, but it does seem a bit lonelier for Joker. Maruki becoming a taxi driver still seems a bit weird to me he didn't have to give up counselling all together.
I personally would have had the original ending of the road trip home with the addition of Sumire and Maruki seeing you off and the end credits still showing what each phantom is up to post story. Even if the future is uncertain after every thing they've been through they'll face it with hope, courage and friendship.
Persona 5 R's final semester was such a huge opportunity. It had a lot of consistency with itself, but it was a complete whiplash compared to the rest of P5. Maybe it was the 2nd "we're bringing you back for one last gig" thing, the tacked on "we're all going to move EXTRA far away now" bit, or just that Maruki felt way different than anything else in the game. The writing felt extremely different as soon as I hit the 3rd semester and I ultimately feel like it would be much better if that new writing was expanded upon in a Persona 6 where the nature of happiness vs freedom can be fully explored.
Just imagine that Kasumi/Sumire was a party member from the get-go and it wasn't until the final palace that the big reveal happened. They could even throw in extra confidant ranks for if you try to max her out early, only to reveal that it was all a farce and change her arcana like adatchi. I think an emotional through-line like that could really be awesome if a whole game was planned around it
oh yes i love royals ending but we were on the fourth "final" mission at that point first sae which is less convincing to the players then shido then god of control and finally maruki honestly i half suspected another palace somehow after maruki as i dont really get how something born from human cognition can just end
Great analysis! This was pretty much how I felt about the endings as well - the somber, but still hopeful tones of P5R’s ending just resonated more with me as an older young adult. I never understood why so many people disliked it so much compared to the original’s ending. Love your content!
Maybe people like vanillas and happy endings? Idk but P5R is far and away superior than P5
Really? I'm a jaded working adult and I found the ham fisted attempt at a bittersweet ending to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. No sweetness, no satisfaction. I already have to deal with disappointment, sadness, etc. IRL so to find that the MCs friends are basically ditching him for bigger and better things made me so angry. Good thing I didn't buy my copy of Royal and borrowed it from a friend. I'm definitely not giving ATLUS $ for half assed spinoffs like this. At least I could actually enjoy Strikers. Royal took itself too seriously, like the writers wanna do some kinda Yoko Taro artsy game that ended up being even more style and less substance than the original.
@@Ookamiryoshi you’re looking at the ending at a very surface level. No one is ditching joker as they’re all still in contact. They’re just deciding to move on and grow. If you romance one of your teammates they’ll continue the relationship. In all honesty you saying they’re all leaving joker seems more like head canon then what actually happened
Outstanding analysis! I definitely prefer Royal ending over vanilla since it’s just on a different emotional level and the themes of the third semester resonated deeply with me (and because of that I can’t listen to “Our Light” without getting emotional).
Hey! I just wanted to let you know...
You're awesome! Keep up the great work.
Royal’s ending, in my opinion, is better. It’s less feel-good, sure, but it shows so much more growth in each individual Phantom Thief and you see how much they’ve matured after having to face reality after rejecting the happy life Maruki created for them.
Brilliant video, Lady. I would elaborate more, but I've had a few too many adult beverages and got my more sober buddy to type this for me. I look forward to future content. P.s. DP's buddy here. This took 20 minutes to write because it was difficult to get a coherent sentence out of him lol.
LOL DP!
I also relate to Royal more, even though Vanilla was the first game that made me cry. I've lost my grandma 3 years ago, and it was hard(and still is) to move on and finish school without her seeing, or going to university(the one she kind of helped me figure out, on the subject that both of us loved -History-), but I keep Charging and going, for her and for me, to achieve my dreams and become the person that I want to be, even though that makes me want to go to another continent to study, away from my most dear friends(even though one is going to the US, so we will be more far apart then ever, but it is for our dreams, so we keep support ourselves). I love Royals part when the talked about the future, and after that I couldn't contain my tears cause Ann, Makoto, Haru all said what I am going to do. It is hard growing up and leaving somethings/someone behind, but there's a world waiting for you, so go take it. That's my interpretation of P5Royal and it is my favorite game ever.
This was an excellent video and a great breakdown of the messages in each version.
I personally prefer Royal's ending over Vanilla's due to each member of the Phantom Thieves having their own individual goals to pursue along with the themes represented in Royal's third semester.
Though I can see why Vanilla's would be enjoyed more by others due to it's upbeat message, to each their own of course.
Regardless, I can't wait to see more from you, this and your many Persona 3 analysis videos have been a blast to watch!
My problem with either version's ending is one about how Japan views criminals. Even cleared the stigma of being convicted would stick with Joker throughout his life. Him going home is not actually a good thing as his parents and home town will still view him as a criminal and the local police will go after him for any crime that they don't have clear evidence of who did it. He is leaving those who would standby him when others would suspect him and discriminate him for his record regardless of it being cleared. Japan has a once a criminal always a criminal mentality and being proved innocent of false charges means nothing in clearing that mindset. Thus Joker is leaving a caring if difficult environment for one that will be abusive and next to impossible without support as his parents clearly didn't care about him after he was convicted as they never check up with him personally and possibly not at all.
If I have to compare the two endings, I would say Royal has the better one. I completed P5 around what, 4 years ago now? And watching the ending for the first time was just... Breathtaking. My first Persona game ever, and man, was it great. But the story, and the ending itself, never really stuck with me. Then I played Royal, and truth be told? The 3rd semester completely blew me away. I am a HUGE sucker for philosophy (which is why NieR:Automata is my favorite game), and the core question of the 3rd semester really, really stuck with me. I still think about it to this day. Maruki himself was masterfully written as well, and the entire conflict between him and Thieves was great. But the ending...
The first time I beat Royal, it was around 2am. And let me tell you, seeing the ending in the dead of night really set the mood. Then the credits started and I heard "Our Light" for the first time. I just sat there, in the dead of night, staring at my TV listening to Lyn's incredible voice. It was incredible. But enough fluff, let's get back to the point at hand. Why is Royal's ending better?
Before the credits, there is a scene where the Thieves sit in LeBlanc and discuss how their future will now. And they all more or less have the same realization: The paths they have chosen will most likely separate them, be it for a short time or for a lot longer. But no one suddenly decides to give up on their dreams just to avoid the pain of separation. Their hearts and minds are set, and nothing will stop them from pursuing their dreams. The future they have chosen, the future they fought Maruki for, they will follow it. That's why "Our Light" is so good IMO. It's tone just fits so well with the thought of everyone going their own way, no matter how hard it will be. And I think I appreciate this message more than the ending of vanilla P5.
Sorry for the long rant, those games just mean a lot to me. Tl;dr P5R has the better ending because it fits better with its themes
I largely dislike Royal's ending cause it leaves mysteries open for other games, which P3 and P4 managed not to do, and rather than making the other party members feel more like individuals, the framing seemed more like they were satellites around Joker.
Even in P4 vanilla, where the protagonist and the others are separated, the perspective came back to them after they had parted ways.
Also there was the treatment of Sumire with her briefly appearing (looking exactly like she did at the start of the game) to remind the player she exists, then leaving.
Finally, the original ending remembered that Joker doesn't need glasses now that he's a free man. Royal, they have to keep them on most of the time cause it's an iconic look now.
Great Video!
You helped me to appreciate the ending of P5R more, even though I'm still uncertain about it.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the bad ending of P5R and on the (almost) absense of Sumi in the ending.
Your videos are so well done, major claps
In terms of endings i go with P5R's ending while in Vanilla p5 its just you fighting a corrupted sociaty in turn ending with the clash against Yaldabaoth, P5R's 3rd Semester while only a month arc is one of the most beautiful pieces of storytelling in modern persona cause you genuinely dont know which side to pick do you chose Maruki's Ideal Reality, and everyones happy, or the real reality where every single party members had there own time to grow. The best characters to see the stark diffrence in realities is Ann and Futaba, in marukis reality Ann has Shiho, and Futaba has her mom Wakaba. It also shows the lose, or shiho moving in anns case grow as characters
I strongly prefer the vanilla one personally :) I know the themes for the Royal were different and it "fits" there or is more "realistic", but for me it ruined a lot of what I love about Persona. The friendships felt less impactful, less important and less believable, its the struggle between what I prefer and between how the developers meant it. The whole meaning of the journey of the bonds, of the power of friendship was diminished and played second fiddle to the leaving your past behind you, even tho it makes no sense for teenagers such as them, all of a sudden in less then a year they wanted to leave their "place to belong" and move on. The vanilla ending just fits Persona better in general, but it works better even for Persona 5 Royal because majority of the game is the same, just the ending is different for the most part, it shouldnt undo everything else that has happened in the game previously. Meaning the themes of P5 are still also present in P5R, hence the clash and hence why I dislike it so much. The new ending and "lesson" feels hamfisted, just stuck there for sake of yet another resolution for already set and resolute characters.
Mind you I dont mind the message or the themes, but it just doesnt fit Persona 5 for me, its like they tried to remake it but this isnt a new game its just an upgrade, changin the whole theme simply cant work, its not Persona 5, its not Persona. The story is well told and the themes are interesting, I just dont like how it shits on the previous themes and essentially ruins what was already set up and what already happened for a different lesson.
Not surprised you prefer Royal, it had Akechi in it, not very fair contest :D
Id love to hear your thoughts :)
Um, were we playing the same game? To me it honestly sounds more like they aren't leaving their place to belong, but instead that they are saying all of them need to move forward *together* but that it requires them to actually follow their dreams to do so. Hence:
Ann goes to *study* abroad and learn more about modeling and fashion wand intends to *return* to Tokyo to be with her friends.
Ryouji goes to get physical therapy so he can start running again, and in no way precludes him from returning to Tokyo for better or worse.
Yusuke (to my memory) never even mentions leaving Tokyo or not hanging out with anyone, just that he's doubling down on his arts.
Makoto's ENTIRE MOTIVATION is becoming a *Tokyo* police commissioner and is still studying within the Tokyo Prefecture for that purpose.
Futaba literally isn't going anywhere as she *just* started high school.
Haru is attending university (in Tokyo?) for the express purpose of being able to lead Okumura Foods, *headquartered* in Tokyo.
Goro is MIA so N/A.
Lavenza is a wild card so to speak whose return or absence is debatably up to fan canon.
I'll include Sae, Sojiro, Sadayo, Ichiko, Mishima, Toranosuke, Munehisa and Maruki here, who also seem to not be going anywhere unless they die or are called by the protagonist/Phantom Thieves. Sae literally even gives him her number and business card should he need her help.
And Sumire is still a high school student athlete living in Tokyo.
The only ones who leave, which is up to individual fan canon as to whether or not it is permanently, are Ren/Akira and Morgana. And *that* is up to *you*.
@@Heartrose7 I agree, this is how it should have been, how it should have felt. There shouldnt have been any big sappy scene where they make it seem like they are leaving, tho Ann's actions still do not make sense, since she directly says herself in rank 10 of her confidant that she is fine not being number 1 right now, she wants to do things properly and slowly, but whatever.
However that is not how it feels to myself and many people besides, the game goes out of its way actually to show how leaving the past behind and moving forward is the best way, there is no togetherness there at all, as is seen by the ending cutscene and the scene I was talking about where they all anounce their rather mundane and expected news as if it means they are splitting up.
It is of course assumed that they will keep being friends, after all the bonds is what Persona is all about, thats simply not what the lesson of the third sememster teaches at all.
I would say we were definitely playing the same game, if you see the third semester as simply an extention of what has happened before and this is still the feeling you get from it im happy for you, but that was neither the intent nor the feeling of it. It was a hamfisted lesson to add another resolution to the characters who were already moving forward together, as it is, it only seems to move them apart, as leaving the past behind and forging a new future in this world they chose regardless of how harsh it is, is what the third semester is about, sadly that also implies that if neccessary for their future and careers they will separate, of course always remaining friends in their hearts etc, but that is only a small relief. You cannot deny that P5R goes out of its way to have different ending than P5 even tho the same one could have been used, that is simply because the events were different and it changed the dynamics of the group, forcefully, so as to have that ending, otherwise, can you really imagine Ryuji just leaving Akira alone to wait for the train at the station? It suits the message of that ending, it isnt true to the relationships and bonds that were created throghout the game.
As others have said more conscisely and better, P5R ending is consistent with itself, with the message of the third sememster, it is however not consistent with the hundred or so hours of Persona 5 before it and it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth of those who prefered that ending.
@@KaiSaeren I feel as if I understand your side a bit better from this reply and while don't completely agree, I can at least meet you part of the way.
That is a very, very interesting interpretation for me, especially since you put it so eloquently. For me it's the opposite, I've always felt that the original ending was naive, forced and disingenuous. These kids have too much trauma to end in such a positive note. BUT I totally understand now that I read this. Guess I'm just more of a glass half empty kinda person. I'm glad that both endings can exist.
Omg, this analisys is absolutely awesome, as the game. I was a bit off with royal, that the phantom thieves don't take joker to the station, but now i comprehend.
I can't tell which finale i love more, but i'm sure that i learn a lot, and that this characters will be supporting me in my heart forever, and that is the most precious thing that we can have.
Pd: sorry if this text is full with mistakes, english isn't my first language
Thanks for the video
Thanks so much for tuning in to the premiere! 'twas fun! :)
I personally thought P5R was unnecessary. I almost felt like the story got to the point that it got too complex to be enjoyed as a game. Sure it was good, just not enjoyable. I felt like P5R just added more cliffhangers that will never be explored such as the glove from Akechi from Justice Rank 8, who made the metaverse app, seeing Akechi in the after credits, and Joker seeing his metaverse self in his reflection. Sure I could see these being moving past fond memories and going forward in life, but it made me feel dissatisfied. A good example of a good ending is the True ending in P4G. Murderer is caught, why people had specific powers to go into the shadow world, all ends tied up, how everyone continues their life. P4G made me feel complete, and P5R made me feel despair. However that’s how I view each game.
Same. I mean I like Maruki and Sumire, they’re great characters. But, I feel like they should’ve just do a new game after Strikers or Vanilla Persona 5 instead of just re releasing the same game that has been over 3 years. That would’ve been an ending that we said a final goodbye to the Phantom Thieves.
P4 is happier and P5 is more “real” if that makes sense
@@sergiosalazar8702 Persona 5's writing is the worst out of the series. Everything is way more anime.
@@moonbug7252 It has the “worst” writing bc it kinda focuses on your experience with the rest of the PT and what happens to all of you. Not that brilliant, but not that bad imo. About it being “happy”, Have you seen P4 and played P5R? 🤔
its simple for me i liked royals ending better because its the only one i played lol allso maruki's palace theme gentle madman is just such a banger
They are the exact same with minor differences, Akechi being Alive, Sumire saying good bye to Ren and Maruki driving Ren home instead of his Team
The p5r ending is consistent...with itself. Its not however consistent with the other 100 hours of content.
So much this. Its not a new game, its not even a remake, its an update, the R ending just doesnt fit with everything you have previously experienced. Its simply another resolution hamfisted in there.
Ohhh you've actually given me another great video idea :3
@@LadyVirgilia Good to hear :D And thanks for answering to my other comment :) I also made another one even longer but who would want to keep up with my crazy rumblings :D
This is my colossal issue. Its like if they hamfisted the plot of P3 after the final boss of P4. Its a great self-contained story but a fucking horrendous ending to the 100 hour game before it.
@@cloodstroof7786 I agree going through the game with knowledge of the original Maruki, and Kasumi just feel...out of place. Like they're not meant to be there. More so than even Marie.
Personally I have a strong preference for the P5 ending. It just feels weird that the phantom thieves you just saved the world with twice basically aren't really involved and instead the guy who tried to dominate the world drives you to the train station, where you proceed to pretty much treat Sumire like she is some vague acquaintance. The fact that Joker goes back by train, while a worse option, doesn't really bother me that much.
But the biggest problem I have with the third semester in general. It just feels odd. The biggest issue being its placement in the timeline. It really messes up the resolution of the main game, which is basically thrown in as an afterthought at the end. I feel like it would've been so much better if you basically first had all of P5, including cutscene, and then Joker returns in the summer or whatever (basically where Strikers takes place) where the third semester things including cutscene take place.
Totally agree it would have better to have taken place after the original's ending. And just before you think the credits will start rolling or even AFTER the credits. But I think they just wanted to do what they did in Persona 4 and have it take place in the jump from the December finale to March.
I'm honestly leaning more into Vanilla's ending.
As much as I appreciate the growth that each of the thieves gets to experience in Third Semester, *one* last road trip together is absolutely not going to stop their dreams. They *deserve* that last "hurrah" together as both the Phantom Thieves and as friends before parting ways and leaving childhood behind.
And with how every spin-off afterwards has ignored Royal and it's "everyone's moving on from the Phantom Thieves life" vibe... It's just jarring to come back to.
(On top of that... I'm so sick and tired of Maruki ruining Joker's chances to say goodbye to people he cares about, by virtue of being one of the writer's favorites. Akechi? Nope. The Thieves? Nope. Sumi? Barely anything.)
My only issue thematically with Royal's ending is Akechi's characterization during the third semester. Theoretically, he shouldn't be "Dark Akechi" anymore because he's started a new life: He's refused to let anyone else manipulate him anymore (At least, if we're supposed to believe his non-metaverse dialogue). Yes, he should still be utterly broken and instinctually distrustful after everything he's gone through, but for whatever reason in Maruki's palace he's just the evil psychopath he revealed himself to be back in November, despite seemingly having grown and learned about himself since then.
Similarly I felt like Sumire's true awakening should have come with her own outfit and Persona, but that can at least be handwaved away a bit.
So it came down to “your mileage may vary” for the decision on which ending is best? If you relate to one more than the other than that one is the better of the 2? I’ve come down to this when referring to pretty much any narrative. After watching/reading hundreds of anime/manga many of which refuse to end the ending is the most important part because that is the ultimate opportunity to make a statement on the themes a creator wants to convey. This is especially true when people come back from the dead in a story because it is the only chance for a definitive overarching message considering that there is no conclusive finality to any particular event in the rest of the plot. The ending of this video leaves a little to be desired because of the wiggle room left in the “this ending is most relatable to me” conclusion. It all but screams “the video’s tittle is designed almost solely to get you to click so I can do a good but very conventional analysis of the two games”
People thinking derivation of human free will is a good ending is highly concerning. It's probably because they never excercised their free will to change their fate and do not know the value of it.
There's a lot of people who don't believe free will exists because we can't prove it exists. There are quite a few scientific studies and religious beliefs that argue that our lives might be outside our own control.
Besides you can still obtain the Vanilla true ending in Royal, by not doing the Maruki social link. And Kasumi/Sumire social link, either you do only the first 5 parts or complete her social link, she still doesn't appear in the goodbye part of your completed social links. And for some odd reason, the white day event in March, doesn't occur, I don't know why, simply because it wasn't in Vanilla. 😅
the end of p5R seems much better and closer to the player. The comments that Maruki makes in the final fight to each of the PTs, remind you of everything they leave behind in this new reality. that was what touched me the most at the end of the game, especially akechi
You said it so well. I'm partial to P5R's ending myself~
and yeah...Akechi
Ah yes, the 5 different endings to Persona 5. Or, as I like to call them: The Traitor, Bad, Good, Ideal, and Real Ending, respectively. Because I think I'm clever.
Now, I don't know why, but P5's Good ending always just felt... off, to me. It seemed almost *too* perfect, dreamlike and unreal. Basically, it felt a lot like the beginning of the third semester. Except of course that Royal had yet to even be announced. And it felt kind of empty, like when you end P4 without fighting Izanami. Like, yeah, it's a good ending, there's nothing obviously wrong with it, but something feels... *missing.* I'm not even kidding.
It might've been how, the whole game, nothing had ever gone completely right. Every victory had come with a sacrifice. But now, the *very concerning* fact that Joker still has secret agents following him is just blown off with a gag about Mona still being their transportation, like it's nothing at all. It just made me uncomfortable. Then, the Thieves driving Joker home is nice, but feels like putting off the inevitable, like they're refusing to acknowledge the reality that they're still going to have to say goodbye. That, combined with Morgana's speech about one's personal cognition shaping their reality, (and probably the lingering trauma of P3's ending, if I'm being honest,) made me genuinely wonder if the protagonist was just hallucinating the whole thing, either in prison or while dieing from the strain of killing Yaldabaoth.
That probably sounds ridiculous, but I honestly, sincerely felt like what I was watching wasn't *real.* I was legitimately waiting for the scene to cut to a shot of Joker just... staring into the middle distance... creating a cognitive world he could cope with after being broken by reality. I figured out eventually that I was supposed to take the ending at face value, but that was a wild ride, lemme tell you.
Anyway, suffice to say Royal's Real ending was a lot more satisfying to me, even if Bokura no Hikari lacks that gorgeous leitmotif from Swear to My Bones that I adored so much in Hoshi to Bokura to. And as for the argument that Royal's new story and themes felt tacked on to what was already there, I get the argument, but I disagree. For me it seemed very much like both an escalation and a deconstruction of the established themes.
It's easy to turn against a malevolent god. It's a lot harder to take back control from someone who genuinely only wants to make you happy. We've gone from: "Show your rebellion against the rotten adults!" to: "How much do you really value your autonomy? Did you want to be truly free, or did you just want the freedom to be happy?" And from: "Trust in your friends!" to: "How much do you really respect the people you love? Will you let them make their own decisions, or force them into what you believe is best?" It's a new layer, but they're the same themes, and I think that's fitting for the climax of a story.
(Do I wish we'd been able to properly say goodbye to Sumire? Yes, absolutely, I think Atlus dropped the ball on that one. But honestly, I consider that to be a small issue in the grand scheme of things.)
TL;DR, the Good Ending was objectively nice, but just didn't sit right with me. The Real Ending fixed that and, in my opinion, was overall better without creating any glaring new problems.
So yeah, I'll take Royal's Real ending any day.
I did both endings
the New bad ending
and the new true ending
I must say in my own opinion that I would love to take the fake ending .
I'm late to the party... Just finished Royal today. I have to say I preferred the original Ending because this one leads to P5Strikers.
I liked both. The original ending to me felt like the end while the Royal Ending to me feels like an "after story"
P5R ending just feels empty to me. P5 ending was way more satisfying. Like my playthrough actually meant something. P5R made me feel hollow inside.
Hollow is definitely a word I'd use to describe my feelings after finishing Royal. Glad to know I'm not the only one.
Am I the only one after seeing the text in P5R can't go back to the old stretch text in the original game?
I think this is extremely subjective for all the reasons you stated in your video, but one of the main reasons I find P5R's ending to be far more fitting is simply the fact that, at the end of the day, they're not fighting some big evil deity of sloth who wants nothing more than to cast humanity into eternal servitude - because yeah, I want to fight that guy, there's no two ways about it. But after all of the terrible people the Phantom Thieves fought to take down for a 100 hours, at the end of the day, their last target is their school counsellor, and something about that just hits different. It's very telling, because as human beings, we're always our own worst enemies. I'd much rather fight a flawed human being than some unfathomably otherworldly entity. There's also something incredibly poetic about how, despite the fact that the Phantom Thieves deeply relied on each other and constantly bolstered one another, the only way they could keep from stagnating and truly moving on with their lives is by having to leave one another. I think P5R is the writers going back and adding what was missing from P5V. I think P5R is a story about hope and acceptance, and how life really is what it is, and that's neither a good or bad thing. People see it as tragic, and to a certain degree I understand why, but there was something hopeful about the way Joker chose to take the train by himself, in his final parting words with Sumire, in that glimpse of Akechi he caught through a train window that may or may not have been a trick of the light. P5V was a great game, but P5R left me feeling both hollowed out and extremely satisfied at the same time. Neither ending is without its flaws, but P5R did something beautiful for me, and I don't think any piece of media has ever made me feel as much as it did when I watched those credits roll for the first time. It easily elevated P5 as one of my favourite games of all time. So for me, P5R will always be vastly more impactful, because it feels so much more grounded in reality, bittersweet as it may be.
A lot of people don't seem to address how Royal ends with Ren discarding his glasses and feeling more confident about himself.
Vanilla ends the same way. In the truck with his friends, Ren is able to stick his head out and look into the world without having to hide behind the glasses. He embraces his true self thanks to the support of his friends. Meanwhile, Royal is about some lid going back in line, remembering his place. Really tired of ppl glorifying Royals ending bc apparently sad equals good. It's a garbage ending to a garbage game imo
28:17 that Joker Artstyle comparison tho.. P5 definitely is better XD but Royal has better Ending
My biggest problem with Royal hinges entirely on that one conversation with Akechi where he confirms that no, this isn't a false reality at all, Maruki literally does have the power to bring the dead back to life. In other words, this means that Makoto, Futaba, and Haru are all effectively re-murdering their own parents because apparently their own trauma-induced character growth is more important than any of their parents' lives?
I spent hours waiting for the game to address this at any point, but instead we get almost the exact opposite. Maruki spends the entire palace begging to just talk things out and see if there's a way for them to reach a compromise, and all he gets from them in return is "Absolutely not. We don't negotiate with reverse terrorists. How dare you bring our parents back to life you monster." There might have possibly been a way to resolve the whole situation without violence where Maruki tries to use his powers to bring people back to life without overriding anybody else's free will, but the Phantom Thieves never even really try.
If Atlus wanted to create a story where the main characters were so dedicated to their own values of free will that they're willing to sacrifice their own family to make it happen, then they should have actually committed to it, not dropped this "Oh by the way if we take down Maruki we'll be killing your friend's parents all over again" bombshell out of nowhere and then never brought it up again.
The fact that no else ever comments on this fact again after this one conversation instead just sort of implies that Joker is intentionally keeping this information from his teammates because he's decided that his own ideals are more important than the lives or autonomy of anyone else. It's like he's chosen the bad ending from the original P5 all over again, except here it's treated as a mandatory part of the "good ending" instead. The writers should have just said that Maruki's reality was 100% fake all along, declaring otherwise just completely muddles an otherwise good storyline and introduces a ton of disturbing implications/dangling plot threads that really had no reason to exist in the first place.
I got the vanilla ending when I played royal. Guess I have to play it again and not screw up this time.
All you have to do is get Maruki to rank 9 by 11/17
> Graham-kun
*Ries likes this*
She sure does heh
Realistically, shouldn’t Maruki be arrested? I mean he psychologically corrupted so many of his patients, especially Sumire. He should’ve lost his medical license or something. But no, let’s let him off the hook free to be a cab driver? Also, why is Sumire taking on Kasumi’s appearance in that ending? That doesn’t make sense either.
This ending works as dlc, not a direct chapter to the main story. After Yalda, this game felt like it was taking too long to end and retreading the same stuff you did RIGHT before this chapter-fighting a giant godly boss fight with new music interspersed in it, signifying an ending. What’s funny is I hated the original for shoehorning Yaldabaoth. But Royal made me realize that original ending was less egregious by comparison. By Maruki, I was ready for the game to end. I think they should’ve made this story take place between Okumura and Sae’s palace, but because of the way the game is designed, they can’t place it in that timeframe, so they tack it on at the end.
First the “fake your own death” twist, then the Yaldaboath twist with people wanting to be controlled, and then ANOTHER twist with Maruki. This chapter overstayed it’s welcome by trying to take place right after that momentous boss fight with another boss who is the size of a skyscraper. The stakes of the fight don’t change, it’s just the same thing we had in the penultimate chapter but with a different theme.
TL DR; Royal’s new chapter works best as a stand-alone dlc mission. Not right after the main story and not by changing the ending.
tbf sumire initially did want that. he didn’t go against her will
P5のエンディングはP4Gと近くって、P5RのエンディングはP3FESに近かったと思う。
曲はどっちも最高なんだよね。
Despite of the Fantastic Final Boss fight in Royal, I absolutely hate its new ending cutscene, it just feel like a cheap rip-off of Vanilla P4's Ending.
I mean, I get the whole thing about the individual maturity stuff, but they were still going to take the same ride of the Original Ending, and then Maruki is shoved in the Ending (strike 1), then once Joker arrives the station he encounters Sumire, who's pretty much acting just like at the start of the game, reminds you she exists. Then she pretty much just says k'bye and leaves (strike 2). And then the Akechi part that just contradicts all of the "bittersweet" justifications, by just undoing Akechi's death, when his death was the only true reason for making this Ending a "bittersweet" one (strike 3).
Honestly, I never felt so apathetic and unfulfilled since I watched GOT's finale (yes, it's that bad). But at least this new ending taught me that "bittersweet" and tragic doesn't always equal good.
Interesting take you have there. I honestly think you’re being a bit melodramatic with that GOT comparison but I can understand where you are coming from, it isn’t as cohesive as the OG ending but to me it was much more relatable and with that it felt more like I can empathize with the PTs that life does have to go on and that it’s still possible to go on while staying connected with old friends even when accepting that people grow distant in time.
@@phillemon7664 The thing is, P4's original ending already did that by far better, which leaves P5R's new ending as a lame and soulless copy.
@@GaeaRage0798 Tf you talking about?
NO WAY this ending is as bad as GOT
I agree that it lacks something, but it elevated some other points (it feels more realistic that you and your friends might go different ways, specially in the way that the members of the PT lived)
I feel that there should have been 2 bad endings
I have to say I think the bad ending should have been changed if you do it at the second opportunity. Like the party have changed as people so their ideal world would change. I imagine this hypothetical second bad ending being one were Sumrie remains Sumrie and the phantom thieves have false memories of winning and by extension believe the new reality to be the original one they saved living in happy ignorance of the truth.
What are your thoughts everyone ?
I would've loved that! It honestly felt lazy to me that both of those decisions lead to the same ending.
@@flameindigo8035 happy someone agrees with me.
15:19 Atlus actually got that Smash Bros. 😂. Joker was a DLC character in Smash Ultimate 😂.
Through this window I like the original ending better. Doctor becomes a cabbie strikes me as odd. I respect cab drivers, I just don't see that happening. My buddy running like Forrest Gump doesn't inspire me. The good and bad ending in Vanilla both hit me. I can't feel the grey Royal ending but maybe I would if I actually played it.
I’ll be honest (and i’ll probably get a lot of hate for this) i personally thought that the vanilla final boss was so cheesy. The concept of defeating an all powerful god like being with the power of friendship has been overused.
Royal on the other hand was fantastic. It kept me second guessing whether or not i was doing the right thing in reject a world where everyone can be happy. Maruki was great as antagonist. He’s far more interesting than Shido and Yaldabaoth because he’s not one dimensional. He truly believes that he’s doing the right thing.
I much prefer the individual take Royal took with the party members (after all P3 is my favorite for that reason). BUT having played vanilla, the changes made weren't enough to change my outlook on them and were also forced some times. The ending also feels like it down plays/ forgets what happened with the whole yaldabaoth thing. If it were in a different game or it were simply clearly divided like the journey and the answer I'd have enjoyed more...
However, none of this fucking matters because of that shit with the ambiguous akechi death. Don't get me wrong. I love the character (and watched your whole video about him) but I just HATE when death is taken back. Specially when the original wasn't ambiguous. And it isn't even ambiguous really! If that wasn't him, then what was that? A joke? Imagine if it was revealed that no that wasn't him. What would be the purpose of that scene? Also I want explanations as to how the fuck he survived.
And that invalidates the whole game to me and also made the credits song sound like the worst to me.
Feels good to take this out of my chest.
yeah, i really don't think the last second akechi tease should have been there
This whole comment section is onto some unhealthy shit 🤣🤣🤣
Good stuff 👍 How have you been btw? Haven't talked in ages.
You didn't really talk about P5R's bad ending. Nothing relevant to say, or did it conflict with your thesis?
I think the new Bad ending is the happiest. This game game made me question my beliefs even if I ultimately disagreed with game. Great game.
Royals ending is more satisfying for all the characters, more cohesive with the themes of the game, keeps a sense of intrigue and mystery, and has a better message for it's audience.
But damn, the vanilla game's end song is so much better. Do not like Royal's credit song.
"So we've rejected Maruki's offer."
What. I didn't do that LOL
According to atlus when i was in japan.. P5 royal is the complete version of the original p5.. I think p5 royal is the canon obviously because of the true ending that will lead to p5 striker
Don't be a Canon Crusader. Frankly, if be glad if I never had to hear about Maruki, Sumi or any of Royals nonsense ever again. I'm aware I'm in the minority, of course.
great game but persona 4 golden true ending is the best of the entire series .
Wait, there’s people who don’t think Royal’s ending is vastly superior to the original?
@@Ookamiryoshi Are you being serious? That's not how the real world works, ya know. You won't always have the support of friends, loved ones, etc. But even so, you have to continue to strive towards your goals because that's the right thing to do.
In my opinion royal did have the best ending hitting everyone with a snap back to reality, that not everything have a happy ending and separation and with a potential of not seeing all Akiras friends.
After giving it some thought, I agree with you that P5R has the better ending. While I miss the implied friend road-trip from the vanilla ending and it’s banger of a credits song, I also find the tone of royal’s more relatable. Somber and uncertain, yet hopeful- just like real life, which is fitting since getting this ending requires that you reject Maruki’s idealized cognitive world of illusion.
I still choose Maruki's offer. All that crap about self growth Is stupid. In the ideal perfect world you will get all your important growth experience in another way. In simple terms if I could wish anything into existence I would over a striving persevere life
Everyone is Maruki’s slave and his reality is his interpretation of a world without sadness. It’s literally the point that it isn’t perfect and people will never grow because with growing as a person comes pain and maruki would never allow that. Giving humanity’s free will to one god contradicts why the phantom thrives fought Yaldy