8 MPG?! - EFF THAT!
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- The 1990 Firebird is getting 8 MPG, when it should be getting 20 MPG. What the heck is going on?! Winston tackles the issue, but it turns out to be much more complicated that we previously thought.
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If you watch the latest episode of "Junkyard Digs"...they encounter similar problems on a 1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass.
You'll get it right
8 mpg :)
One can say its maybe not exactly a prius :)
Some of the fuel economy problem, is the TBI itself. The car has to inject more fuel because it heats up on it's way to cylinders and not all of it makes it to the correct cylinder at the time, plus more for cooling. Port injection, (TPI,) is better and you can get TPI for your engine. TPI also looks badass. 1987 had TPI as an option on the 305. Not sure what's legal for your area though. You can find out by calling the EPA for your area and asking questions. An older system may not be allowed. On my 92 Camaro I had issues that caused me to remove the thermostat. A friend of mine drove the car on a trip and he thought it got great MPGs over the 500 mile trip. Cooler, the ECU will inject less fuel, is the theory on that. The TPI made more power too
When it gets that low, it’s no longer mpg, it’s gpm
Literally stopped what I was doing to watch this.
As an older-car guy, not an older car-guy, this should be a really fun video. Just replaced a 22 year old OEM fuel filter the other week, and hoping that's going to help a bit with fuel economy, and throttle response.
Edit: You definitely picked the right car for this channel, because you've got a bit of work ahead of you, bro.
I'm calling it the "White Albatross".
@@williamswenson5315 - I can get onboard with that. Let's see if we can either make it a thing, or see what else [bird pun]s up.
Replacing the fuel filter won't do a damn thing for fuel economy. A clogged fuel filter will reduce fuel pressure, and the engine computer will compensate by keeping the fuel injectors open for a longer "duty cycle" to ensure the correct amount of fuel gets into the engine. If your fuel economy is bad, the VERY FIRST THINGS you should do are to clean the intake airflow sensor and replace the exhaust oxygen sensor. Those are the two most important parts that control the air:fuel ratio, and therefore the fuel economy, on ANY fuel-injected car.
@@deusexaethera I'm not even a fuel injection guy but I would have went for the oxygen sensor first. It's common knowledge. Probably spark plugs also. Plug wires rotor button. Quick easy and obvious things. A bad oxygen sensor will tell the computer it needs more fuel or it's getting too much.
@@paulshamblin6260 I take I you learned that from trial and error? Best way to learn.
Powernation just did a three part video for improving fuel efficiency on a 3rd gen Camaro. That might help.
I was pretty disappointed by that powernation segment. They did the worst stuff for economy. I have a 92 Camaro with a 5.0L tbi/4 speed auto.
I have not touched the computer or fuel injection. I put on a set of 1.5 roller rockers, full msd ignition system, flowtech headers and y pipe to a Flowmaster muffler, and a 14x3 k&n filter. I have 255/50r16 tires on all 4 corners. I regularly pull down 26.5mpg. It is much livelier than before and gets great mileage. The sticky 255 tires are not as much fun because the long burnouts aren't as easy without the brake pedal. It rides like it's on rails.
87 iroc. Last year of 4bbl 305. I was clocking around 28mpg As Long as I Didn't get Into The 4bbl
@whittney shackleburst we old farts like automatics. We've done too much shifting, drag racing, road touring in our days. Gotta go back to my silver singles website. Hahaha
Just did? Those episodes aired in 2008.
@@wade998 They just uploaded them to RUclips then.
You are single handily keeping my childhood dream cars on the road.
My solution for 4 1/2 mpg in my 1967 Ford f100 429ci pickup was to buy a Honda to commute in. Excellent video have a great day stay awesome.
That just might be the fix for my 2008 Fusion getting 20 MPG
That makes me feel a little better only getting 8mpg in my 1983 Chevy K30.
List of things that could cause problem: 1) a thing that requires time consuming rebuilds and several new parts. 2) an expensive new ECM. 3) an inexpensive thing that is simple to replace. Hmmm, let's leave number three for last.
I have a 88 Iroc-Z (LO3) 305tbi 5 speed...drove my dad nuts of the same thing, surging rpm...there was no service engine on...so we took a guess O2 sensor-it was bad, and also found out the Smog air diverter valve was causing the low idle during startup when it was at operating temp-meaning the bad diverter valve was pushing air onto the O2 sensor thinking I opened the throttle, so the computer was flooding the intake and would have rev my engine to not wanting it to die
My 85 Corvette got 32mpg after I put a Doug Nash 6 speed in it that transmission had a double overdrive.
Congrats. My 2000 Vette gets 32mpg also with 6speed Tremec.
I always picture you in a suit working on the cars!
Wasn't too fond of this channel when you first made it but, now can't stop watching them. Got me into the world of wanting a sports car
Winston, I don't recall you mentioning this, but if you haven't, please do a compression and vacuum check on that engine. Also, check valve and ignition timing (stroboscopic timing light) so you know where you are starting from with this probable high mileage engine. If it's a chain-driven camshaft, it could have jumped a link or it could be worn enough to effect performance. If the fundamentals are all good, I'd look for something more exotic.
@@plowe6751 Yes, that's a good trick, or filling the cylinder with small dia. rope with the end trailing out. No pressure change to worry about then. While difficult on some engines (#1 spark plug on the '70's Dodge Dart's 225 slant six for example), it's usually not impossible; it's just a pain to do. While worn valve guides will lead to oil loss, any lack of power would not be owing to them. Remember, if the valves are seated and patent and the rings are good, you should have full power provided the timing and air/fuel mixture is right. What he could do is pressurize the cylinders at TDC with about 100 psi air and listen at the exhaust (exhaust valves), the oil dipstick port (rings) and the induction (intake valves). If it's hissing through any of those, there's your problem. If it's high miles and not well-maintained, it probably has ring, valve and valve guide wear. If you are lucky, on some engines, the valve seals can be changed without pulling the head. If it were me, I'd do the diagnostic and if the rings are OK, I'd pull the heads, new guides and seals, grind/replace the valves and change out the timing chain. Yeah, he'd need a decent machine shop for that.
@@plowe6751 No, but doing a complete diagnostic on the basic integrity of the engine is not time wasted. As I said, on this car with its unknown mileage, I'd pressure test the cylinders and then replace/repair what you have to. Off throttle braking and ash deposit on one side of the spark plugs would be good indications of worn valve guides along with high oil consumption and the tell-tail blue smoke on startup that requires a bit of engine running time to clear. He can change the valve stem seals, but if that doesn't fix the oil control problem, then the guides are going to have to be pressed out for replacement. If you going that far, why not just do the heads while you have it apart? That would fix the problem, unless the engine has worn cylinder bores and/or rings. Those are going to be a deal breaker. As I recall, the 305 was a popular engine; I'd bet a remaned short block is available for it although the 350 is probably also. I don't envy him; the engine is probably worn out from a combination of high miles and poor maintenance.
It is a good thing you love this car because it is clear it is a money pit
anything that isnt a 94 celica is an endless money pit
@@KORTOKtheSTRONG Scotty??
@@KORTOKtheSTRONG Scotty go home
not really. id have chunked that doo-doo tbi in an instant. advance the timing, get a proper carb tune, and it would get better mileage than the tbi.
Fix the valve seals. Compressed air, and remove the seal and replace the springs at the same time. I cant believe anyone who cannot do simple maintenance. I spent less money on my 1981 White Mustang.....all pre OBDII Big Four cars are easier to fix than any other car on Earth...easier than Toyotas, Scions, Nissans, Hondas etc
You have to have someone follow you but if you blow blue smoke accelerating, it's your rings. If you expel blue smoke decelerating it's your valve seals.
Get a scan tool and make sure your ECM is seeing the correct engine temperature. Also make sure it's going into closed loop.
You can clean up your cat and combustion chamber with GM Top Engine Cleaner. Mix it 50/50 with water into a jug and suck it in through a vacuum port at 2000 rpm being careful not to stall it while the engine is hot.
dont you mean open loop after reaching temp?
@@rctopfueler2841
In open loop the ECM only looking at what it's putting in.
In closed loop it's also looking at what's coming out which forms and closes a loop.
To simplify.
MAF>ECM open, it's not getting feedback
MAF>ECM
@@Foche_T._Schitt ok you lost me ,so when the motor is cold it runs off a pre determined set of values in other words its not using any sensor input only ,right and once operating temperature is reached it then uses the information from oxygen sensor map maf tps,crank and cam sensors ect to adjust what it needs ,air fuel timing accordingly wich would be a open to open to self adjust as needed is that not correct?
@@rctopfueler2841
It isn't open to "adjust," it's open because there's no feedback *loop.*
You have a loop (a circle of information) that isn't closed, what's going out the tailpipe isn't being measured until it's hot. The MAP, MAF, etc don't need to be warmed up to get a reading. The ECM is only seeing input values, not output values.
i bow to you gracefully sir N.U K E. you are right i had it backwards for the most part its all kinda confusing and im no ase certified guy ,just a guy doing whatever it needs to keep my rigs going and 40 years of never using a repair shop but i learned something new today. thanks
"Keep it between the ditches" reminds me of a friend's father, who says "keep it between the mustard and the mayo." :p
As pilots, we say greasy side down and sunny side up.
And send her to the ketchup? (red line her)
@@XiamaraTheToxicMu Hmm. The originator of that one probably ate a lot of fast food in their car.
Reminded me also of Prozzie's "keep your stick on the ice"
@@williamswenson5315 drunk burnouts on a trailer. his channel is zipties and biasplies.
I drove the TBI on a caprice taxi cab for ten years before port injection came along without any problem over 550,000 miles . I came into work one day and they stripped it for body parts for a new cab that was hit in the side and front.
I just spent ten hours today trying to diagnose and repair a hydraulic pump, and after using the precision of a surgeon, one wheel still isn't working. I'm impressed you went to the trouble to figure all this out. 👍👍👍💪💪💪
That’s the problem with a closed loop system. Carbs and old mechanical fuel injection systems are open loop. Doesn’t matter if the valve stem seals or rings are shot. It will continue to meter air and fuel just as if nothing is wrong, environment be damned.
The "problem" with a closed-loop system is it recognizes when something is wrong and it can't do a good job? Okay...
@@deusexaethera No, it tries to adjust its operation to get the mixture back to stoichiometric in the exhaust, causing the AFR in the engine itself to be weird, potentially damaging it by leaning out the mixture. It never recognises that something is wrong at all; it just thinks it needs to readjust itself.
@@Jupiter__001_: Exhaust oxygen sensors ALWAYS "fail rich". An old or failed oxygen sensor will never cause the engine to run lean. They are designed this way specifically to prevent engine damage.
You realize that TBI, as well as virtually all EFI, also operate in open loop? The only time they are in closed loop is when the engine is cold. It has little to do with emission controls.
@@Lykoloo: EFI operates in open-loop when the engine is cold or when engine load is high, because in those circumstances the required air/fuel ratio is too rich for a narrowband exhaust oxygen sensor to monitor in realtime. EFI runs in closed-loop when the engine is warm and engine load is low, which represents the vast majority of the time the engine is running.
1985 Firebird was my 1st car I owned. Quite the nostalgia looking at all the parts. The main problem I had with this vehicle was the system that lifted the front headlights
Same. I was always blinking at people. ;(
Keep the videos coming. My son bought a 1991 with the 305 throttle body and I'm learning everything I can. Your videos are helping.
I know it's not low mileage. But makes for great videos. These early fuel injection & emissions cars get really dirty from EGR. Figuring out EGR paths and cleaning them out makes a world of difference (EGR, EGR pipes and paths, throttlebody butterfly, etc.)
I knew I recognized SerpentZA's voice from the beginning
I couldn't place the voice at first and then it hit me!
You should try running some high mileage oil in the car. It can sometimes stop the valve stem issue all together. They put swelling agents in the oil to make the seals supple again. Only issue is that you must continue to use the oil for the rest of the life of the car to continue having no issues. Stopped my cars valve stem issue and stopped the burning of oil.
Yes Winston, I've a '91 Chevy Blazer with a 350 TBI, I too had a once in a great while "Stumbling Idle". Well, I went to buy some rebuilt INJECTORS,,,,, and learned that there are 2 types.... DO NOT GET the POLICE CRUIZER Type,,, they'll eat more gas , etc. Maybe you've got something like that? Marcel in Yuma
can't wait for that LS swap. this thing is going to be an absolute monster
They'd have to leave California first.
Rick C I think Edelbrock makes a crate LS3 that’s compliant with California’s emission
@@matthewklosowski7851 Yep, you can definitely upgrade to a newer more fuel efficient engine, it just has to be complete. Say, like an 02 Trans AM with all the emissions equipment and everything, OBD II port near the driver's seat. Everything.
Ahh cant wait to watch another video stay healthy and awsome to you and your families. Much love from Canadian audience to the north.
Remember that 1986 Sci-Fi Horror film "Aliens"? I'm reminded of a quote... *"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from . It's the only way to be sure."*
I'll put in a "Like", with any reference to Aliens. Nice connection:)
I got 95 Chevy 1500 with tbi 350. 200k miles. Bought it at 130k. It's had a 16 or 20 foot landscape or dump trailer hooked to it non stop. Mow lawns all week on a tank of gas. Good power output. No tbi issues ever. You got good plugs, wires, cap, rotor and coil? Yeah it may just be the oil burning through exhaust messing o2 up. Those motors though we're fairly simple. What about timing and stretched timing chain? If valves not opening at right time you may be losing gas through exhaust. Rebuild heads. Check for cracks. New timing chain. Maybe new cam. Put on headers if it don't have them
I understand your frustration and admire your willingness to go the extra mile. When you get it right it feels great. So many people just throw it away or replace with all modern components. It worked once. Get it done.
I'm considering doing a coffee table photo book featuring dead Camaros in the yard. Within a 25 mile radius of my home, there are enough examples to fill two volumes.
Love how you worked thru each step to find the problem. We have changed those valve seals on a lot of GM cars. We used a system that didn't require removing much more than the valve covers. We would pressurize the cylinder and use a tool to compress the spring, remove the spring and then install Ford style seals. Really enjoying your series.
I bought one of these brand new in 1989. It was the black Formula Tuned Port Injection 350 (upgrade from the earlier earlier throttle body and made more power) which was out of the corvette however had something like 10 hp less than the Corvette due to the exhaust differences (of course) between the Firebird chassis and Corvette. I remember owners complaining about the limited slip cone clutches wearing out prematurely allowing one wheel to spin like an open differential when tracking. Mine started burning oil at 12k because of deflective valves seals however Pontiac replaced them under warranty. I sold it right after and bought a late 1980 928 auto euro imported to the US model and never had an issue with it. I sold that after five years and bought a manual 928 in 2000 which I still have and the limited slip still locks like new on it with 108,000 miles and being 41 years old. Since 2000, I've never owned another automatic car again, even my daily drivers and and will never own one again.
Blue smoke on cold start is usually valve stem seals. It's common on that era GMs. Some shops have a less expensive way to replace them w/o pulling the head. Compressed air is forced into the cylinder via the spark plug hole to hold the valves in place when springs and keepers are removed. Then a special machine drills out the old seal and a new one is pressed in. Springs and keepers are returned and on to the next cylinder. Huge labor savings not having to remove the heads.
I had a 1984 Mustang Svo that I got in 85 and kept for 3 or 4 years and never had any issues with the fuel injection. Car had turbo and intercooler too. Loved that car so much. GM system looks different and old school.
Again its a base model V8. the no HP one to be honest.
TPI Multiport was optional and a completely different engine.
in 1985 the TPI first apear. in 87 they released the 5.7L TPI(L98)
and the 1990 to 1992 took care of the MAF that was really an issue and use speed density on both 5L and 5.7L tpi.
the LB9(5L TPI) in the 5spd package had 230hp/215hp with the autotrans.
this TBI(L03) is barely making 170hp.
my 2.8L 1985 5spd was making 140hp. 😂 and was multiport.
drove it to 330.000km with the factory powertrain before going 5.3L 6spd LS.
I remember in the old days if we had blue smoke I'd park the car on a hill facing uphill if it didn't smoke I knew it was the front valves, if it smoked it was the rear valve seals. Then check for wet plug , replace that seal and test again. Today, I would change the seals all at once. Back then we always had extra seals in the garage and only used what we needed.
I was a mechanic for 28 years... Never heard "tryagnosis" before. Brilliant. I don't know if it's been said in the comments or you thought of if but I've seen those TBI injectors so dirty, the car won't even start. You can watch fuel dump out of them but the spray pattern is so affected they won't fire up.There is a screen in the injectors too, that can get dirty, When you had them apart it would have been a good time to clean them. Places do it, some use an ultrasonic bath. Sometimes replacement is the only fix. I would imagine it could affect fuel economy as well. My two cents of tryagnosis
Thanks mate, yeah I checked them and replaced them to be sure
@@serpentza You replaced both injectors?
@@oceania2385 yes both because I was worried someone put 350 injectors on the 305
@@serpentza Bummer, One funny thing that hopefully you've checked. One rear tire with 10 psi in it will drag economy down in that range and still look inflated. I'm with you, without OBDIII live time data and codes its super tough to check Cat converter functions and 02 sensor activity at a glance. Practical checks are difficult with those systems, Possible but a pain in the rear. If it has a hotwire airflow sensor they make great aerosol cleaners specifically for the wire now. More Tryagonis please ! 8 mpg is no bueno
Winston, one thing that I always recommend to my family and friends, when they purchase a used car (especially an older model), is to get a few bottles of Seafoam; and treat the use it in the intake manifold.
That smoke you're seeing when you start the engine could also be carbon buildup on the valves. After a couple of Seafoam treatments, you could end up blowing all the carbon off the valves with an Italian tune-up. (a.k.a. driving the piss out of the car, but below the redline)
I don't both with the Seafoam spray. Instead, I use the liquid Seafoam; and introduce it to the manifold via a homemade atomizer.
1. Ensure the engine is hot (after a normal 30 minute drive, it's sufficient... unless you're doing it in the Winter, where temps hover and dip below freezing)
2. Use about ⅓ of the bottle. (You might need a friend to keep the RPMs up; and avoid stalling the engine)
3. Cut the engine; and let the Seafoam bake into the manifold and valves for 15 minutes.
4. Repeat steps #2 & #3 until the bottle of Seafoam is empty.
5. After the 3rd and final treatment from the bottle of Seafoam has been applied... and you've allowed it to bake for another 15 minutes, drive the car at high RPMs for 30 minutes. After each treatment, you should see a heavy amount of blue smoke coming from the exhaust, but it should clear up as the carbon buildup gets ejected through the exhaust.
For larger engines, cars with high mileage or older vehicles, you may want to repeat the process again, immediately after finishing the first treatment.
I've done this on many vehicles:
- My VW Tiguan 2.0T (every 50K km)
- My Chrysler 300C 5.7L HEMI
- Pickup trucks
- Friend's Honda Prelude
- Friend's '78 Camaro
- Dad's '77 Mercury Marquis Wagon
...and a bunch more.
Each time I show someone how easy it is to do it, they do it themselves thereafter. Only once did it not make a difference; and that was because the pickup truck needed a ring job.
If you know anyone with a turbo direct injection engine (that's most small cars with 2.0L engines), this is necessary to do every 50K km, because of the carbon buildup in the intake manifold. The only other options are to install a catch can, or remove the intake manifold and sandblast the carbon off with crushed walnut shells. (The last choice is expensive)
The 12 ton double decker bus I drive in Scotland gets 11.5 mpg and believe me my foot is always hammering the floor!
When I lived in South Africa Durban, I bought a Merc 380SE then bought a 5.0 liter Holden (Australia) V8, slapped a brand new 450 CFM Edelbrock carb on top.
With upgraded manifolds and she was a monster 😁
But boy did she love the juice
Reminds me so much of my red 1988 Firebird that was my first car. I still miss that car so much. It was slow by today’s standards, but it sounded good and looked cool. Mine also had the puff of blue smoke on start-up but it cleared up immediately. I routinely got over 20 mpg in mine with the 4 speed automatic, usually between 22-24 mpg, and that is with a heavy footed teenager driving it. Those cars pale in comparison to their modern counterparts in power and speed, but they sure were fun back in the day
Another interesting video. My $0.02: on my 89 TBI Formula, I had a vacuum leak A/C side heading into the firewall. Controlling the blend door for the A/C. It was discovered by a friend while helping me do some mechanical work. It was a barely audible hiss whenever I had it on MAX. Anyway, just by slightly adjusting the AC switch, the leak disappeared. It was affecting the vacuum mechanism and my mileage went from 12mpg to 16mpg. It's worth a look.
I was getting around 8 mpg in a stock 1980 Firebird (turbo). I bought the car from a consignment shop and the Rochester carb, both idle mixture screws were 8 turns open! Ran both screws all the way in and back out 1.5 turns and after 5 minutes of sooty smoke staining the driveway, it was running much better and getting closer to expected mileage.
I had an 84 with the electronic quadajet, was actually a good piece, about 16-20 mpg.
I later did extensive modifications to the engine, flat top higher compression pistons, cam, intake, edelbrock TES full exhaust. Lightly ported heads. It ran great and the carb worked great. I believe fuel economy went up while HP was up probably 100+ from stock.
Those were some really choked up engines especially the base 305
As someone who spent five years chasing the faults on a 1985 IROC-Z L69 with the E4ME computer Qjet, I feel your pain! Being in the UK didn't help - as all parts had to be carefully bought online and expensively imported! Runs like a champ now though, and I'm glad I fought for it, despite the naysayers telling me to stick on a carb. These quasi-fuel injection systems are weird as hell, but they're of their time and part of the character of the car.
1986 Trans Am...1988 Camaro Z28 .......1989 Trans AM -GTA...I I always had a problem you always have to fix on them and work on them constantly but when you get them running rite watch out ...a super fun car to drive and will get side ways easy..just take your time to get it rite... Cheers
This is a great series of videos. Really appreciate sharing your grief and some success on your formula. I have feeling it will get to the level of reliable, fun, and efficient motoring! More Power!!!!
I got about 10mpgs in a foxbody 5.0 I used to own, it needed a total overhaul on the fuel/ignition system and then only got about 16mpgs with the 5spd manual
I was a GM mechanic from the early 90's to 2001. After that I had my own independent shop. TBI engines are really good but most mechanics working on them back in the day didn't understand them and as a result they are often dismissed as junk. Here's a little tip to get the most out of a GM TBI engine from this era. The factory specifies initial timing to be set at 0 degrees, at least on 4.3s, 5.0's and 5.7's. This is at idle with the timing wire disconnected or on some models with the DLC connector grounded. It will tell you which procedure to use on the underhood emission sticker. Timing chain stretch causes the timing to slowly retard over time. Most vehicles I checked were 3 to 5 degrees ATDC. Anyone who knows engine timing knows that ruins performance, and fuel economy. Reset the timing using the proper procedure but don't set it at 0 degrees. I found that in most instances you can get away with 2 degrees BTDC. Any more and the engine will detonate under hard acceleration. But going from 5 degrees ATDC to 2 degrees BTDC will make you feel like the car has 150 more horsepower and you'll get a corresponding increase in fuel economy. Every customer I did this to over the years, mostly on trucks, came back in within a few days to shake my hand stating their vehicle never ran that good ever. It was such a small thing and I never told my secret at the time, when these vehicles were on every corner. Hey, I had to have a reason to draw the customers. Today I tell everyone as these vehicles just aren't around much anymore. Good luck!
Throttle body is basically an electronic carburetor. You gain a higher pressure fuel system & better control over fuel delivery. It's still not as efficient as tuned port, which the Corvette got first. It eventually became an option for that car, after eventually being offered in the Camaro. You don't have to worry about triggering the choke in cold weather, though. (or priming the carburetor)
A great diagnostic program for pre OBD-II GM cars and trucks is WINALDL, and it is FREE for download off the internet, all that is needed to run the program is a simple cable to connect to the cars ALDL, and you can build the cable yourself with instructions off the internet, and use old win-98 laptop computer to display all the DATA simultaneously.
I used WINAL when building my 1986 Monte Carlo SS, and also used it on my 1988 Chevy 2500 w/350 TBI, it saves a lot of headaches not having to fire off the parts cannon!!
Top content. I remember struggling with the valve stem keepers. Looking forward to your videos.
Love these vids as I still lust after a 78-84 Trans Am.
The Car's ECM Prom might be wrong, thus the Lookup timing advance lookup table might be for the wrong car.
Since the car's ECM (computer) was not original , the prior owners may or may not have swapped out the original Prom to the newer ECM. The prom on early 3rd gens had a 3 letter code, 1986 had 3 and 4 letter "Production Broadcast Codes"; 1987 had 4 letter codes on the Camaro. "F" Car ECM Component Cross Reference Chart shows up on google for Camaro.
On my 1982 Camaro the ECM has a number 1225610 on the Computer with the code BND on the outside for the Prom. GM used that same 1225610 computer with 7 different Camaros in 1982. plus other GM cars too. The wrong prom might work but run not as well.
The ECM sets the timing to the distributor via a look up table when in EST mode . It uses the MAP sensor, Temperature sensor etc , RPM etc to move the timing from base timing.
The base timing is when one grounds the ALDL connector in test mode and you use a timing light.
regards with your project
There is a trick for doing valve stem seals on older engines without removing the heads, Using cotton rope about 1/4 inch thick, remove the sparkplug and fill cylinder with about 2 feet, compress the rope against the valves by rotating the engine, that way the valves won't fall out when taking off the springs and retainer's. Make sure your on the compression stroke, you will have to do one at a time. You can do that engine in about 5 hours, Cheers
hey guys , i was remembering your video using cassette tape adaptors in old radios , you dont need that junk anymore . now you can use a cigarrette lighter adaptor to work blutooth between old stereos and mobile devices .
Winston when you replace the valve stem seals you do not have to take the heads off of the vehicle. Get yourself an air compressor then a fitting to go into the spark plug threads to pressurize each cylinder one at a time to 60 pounds per square inch. Then obviously at this point your valve covers and rockers arms will be removed... then you can proceed to compressing and removing your valve springs then sliding off the old valve stem seals and installing the new ones. I highly suggest using Umbrella style seals as replacements, Reinstall in reverse order and you'll be good to go no more smoke. And since you're in California I would also suggest a 160 degree thermostat, it will help your vehicle run about 35 degrees Fahrenheit cooler. I just replaced the thermostat that was in my firebird and when I pulled it out the one that was in was 195 degree Fahrenheit thermostat. It took no time at all for this vehicle to get up to temperature and also not much time thereafter to get up to 220 degrees at that point the electric fan would kick on. It was just happening too quickly and the car was running to warm, hence the replacement to the 160 degree Fahrenheit thermostat. Now the vehicle runs much cooler, it has better throttle response and even after running the vehicle on 90 degree days there is an absolute noticeable difference in the heat that the engine is throwing off by placing my hand directly on the hood. The combination of this and the cowl induction drawing cool air directly into the TBI unit has made a significant difference in performance an overall running of the vehicle.
This is a great video Winston. Being a big time car guy myself, It's really cool to see this different side of you.
I remembered doing this on my high school friend's Brougham Cadillac he got as his first car from his dad.
I recognized the man with the sunglasses in the thumbnail immediately. Glad I found out about this channel of his.
Maybe do a compression test as well, Winston. You'll never know as the head might have to come off as well. ;D'
Bad compression will affect horsepower, not fuel economy. If the fuel economy is bad, THE VERY FIRST THINGS you should do are clean the intake airflow sensor and replace the exhaust oxygen sensor. Those are the two most important parts for controlling the air:fuel ratio, and therefore the fuel economy, on ANY fuel-injected car.
So many times I see people just firing the parts cannon at these old EFI engines. GET AN OBD1 SCANNER! They are out there along with cables and software for a laptop. Check fuel pressure, learn to use a multi-meter. Do some actual diagnosis. You’ll save money and a lot of aggravation in the long run.
That is right. We used to have to diagnose these accurately. It can be done. It was NEVER acceptable to waste customers money by guessing. There is a HUGE difference between "working on a car" and "repairing a vehicle".
Obd1 systems are actually more easier to understand with an open mind. If you had a scanner that can plug into the ALDL connector One thing to look for specifically is the block learn integrator information . This can tell you where your data numbers are in regards for fuel trim. The number you are looking for is 128 with "KOEO," once it starts you will want to look into where the numbers go once it warms up (close loop). Anything over 128 is considered the system going "rich" meaning the ecm is trying add more fuel to the system. Anything under 128 the system is trying to subtract. Also monitoring the 02 sensor is a good way to understand how the exhaust system is registering the spent gas. However the best way to follow it is by graphing the wave pattern which I believe seeing 5 waves (up and down motion) in 5 seconds tells that the 02 sensor is functioning properly. But as you said the 02 sensor is bring tarnished by the burning oil which can make the o2 sensor give falsify readings.. . Sorry for blabbing on but I used to do alot of this diagnostic "old school repairs". Its just nice to see a nice ride like yours and I hope you are able to resolve your problems soon. Happy motoring!
I just used a paperclip to jump the obd terminals at a minimum. Had an 89 that needed a lot of work and that's all I had to go on most of the time lol
I use to have a 91 trans am that was painted light blue. It smoked blue on start up and on heavy acceleration. My friends would ask me how I got my car to smoke the same color as the paint, that it looked cool! It was due to bad rings, so I just slapped a new 350 in place of the clapped out 305. It was really a fun car. If anyone is going to get a 3rd-4th gen F body, I would recommend to only get one with a stick shift. It makes them 10 times better/funner.
Looks like he spent a lot of unnecessary money by firing the old parts canon!
My 1996 Crown Vic 4.6 liter had almost 300k miles on it and it never burned or leaked oil. I ended up selling it a few days after advertising it for sale.
My ‘97 Grand Marquis had close to 200k miles no oil burning or leaks, sold that one.
Sold my ‘83 Grand Marquis with 5 liter EFI with around 150k miles.
Good grief. My 1988 Camaro IROC-Z 5.0 TPI used to get 27mpg. I thought that was bad.
I had an IROC-z with a 350
Maybe it was after market?
My 73 chev k-20 gets 13mpg.
@@MrScoobieman I was silly really to try and run an old American car here in the UK. A full tank of fuel is about £73 ($110 USD). And that would only get me 180 miles. We now only really drive cars that give 700 miles per tank, such as my 2016 Merc A220d AMG 2.2.
27 is pretty good for a v8 tbh
4:20 Don't go in a automatic car wash if you remotly care about your paint !
Southern California is a desert. I wouldn’t be surprised if washing your own car with a hose is illegal. Save water and the environment and all that. Car washes probably have to recycle the water and be all carbon neutral and stuff. :)
In certain parts of California its illegal to wash your car if there is any run off. So you have to wash your car like in your lawn, or have some sort of system to collect the run off water before it enter the gutter
Good thing the paint on this car is absolute trash
@@MyDailyUpload This is the law during drought years. We're not currently in one rn though. Car washes do in fact have to collect their water, but it's more about not letting the oils and metals from runoff seep into the ground. As the other person stated, during drought years you can wash your car on your lawn, but it has to be during certain hours, like not peak daylight or something.
@@laowhy86 All it need is some coating like wax
love it nice break down of the steps
You are lucky. ! I got the 1983 with the crossfire injection
Ouch!
laowhy86 lol u know!!!
Calculator watch, dope.
It's funny how old cars used to advertise what are now basic features. I have never changed spark plugs so I can't really give any good advice or comment but I'm really wondering about the fuel pump because from my experience in watching RUclips videos the fuel pump is always a problem but I found out later that older cars didn't use fuel pumps made of plastic. My last piece of uninformed advice is why not grab a newer v8 from the junkyard and do a engine swap. Just for entertainment when the car is finished we need some burnouts and maybe some drifting
He spent more trying to figure out what was wrong with a trash 305 than he would just doing a swap
The idle controller is a stepper motor that screws and unscrews the plug to let air in or prevent air from coming in depending on throttle position. And the TBI system is incredibly reliable, almost bulletproof. They don’t make much power but can be setup for decent power. I just built an arduino based controller for a Tbi system using the Multec Injectors that gm used on the gas powered big blocks (GMC Kodiak Ex.) and a wideband 02 sensor, with a 91 octane tune it put down 278hp / 312tq. But any efi system from 30yrs ago is going to be a headache but overall the Rochester tbi systems are very good for what they are
To be clear this comment wasn’t meant to bust your chops or anything, I learned most of this stuff because I couldn’t understand how Holley / Edelbrock etc... could sell their “new” efi kits (which are essentially tbi systems for $1000+ when I could do the same thing with custom or repurposed OEM hardware. And at the moment I’m putting together a 355 sbc with dual tbi’s (on a Chinese dual carb intake) with the aforementioned injectors , but this time the ecu will be a factory unit from 1990 and instead of having to burn chips to make it run, I’ll be using an EPROM emulator connected to Tuner Studios which will let me tune the engine while it’s running. Emulator from “My Geeky Hobby” $55, chip adapter from “Red Devil River” $35, junkyard ecu and wiring $50 and Tuner Studios is free open source tuning software, as are the b.i.n. files (Factory engine calibrations)
One thing that may help the smoke on startup issue is a high mileage oil as they contain additives that help moisturize, condition and essentially swell older dried out seals. Ive seen it work in some cases if the seals aren't super worn out.
I was thinking "valves and rings" at the top, thinking I'd remembered a blue smoke story. Also, I probably would have tried the computer first, but it wasn't the issue, so there.
the title of this vid is not lost on us South African fans. lol. Cheers, boet!
Nice work
nice video on my 89 camaro i pulled the 305 and put a 327 in it that i had rebuilt myself very fun car now lol
You can do valve stem seals without pulling the heads. Put compressed air into the spark plug hole of the valves you want to replace, then when you take the springs off it'll hold the valve closed so you can do seals
Finally got my 87 s10 running right after literally replacing every part that could be associated with bad mpg and hesitation. New spark plugs, c02 sensor, egr valve, all new vacuum lines, tps, air idle control valve, map sensor, rebuilt the throttle body, temp switch, tps switch, air filter..... other crap. All along it was the dam egr solenoid.
I had a 3.0 V6 Camry that overnight started getting 6 mpg and would barely idle . I scanned it and kept getting random lean codes on both banks even though the exhaust smelled like gas and it was smoking badly , it was obviously running extremely rich . Turned out to be the downstream o2 sensor , it had gone bad and was showing a maxed out lean condition all the time , but was not actually throwing any codes that would indicate a a problem there . What a pain that was to find .
That's interesting. My buddies Toyota V6 truck did the same thing. It was probably that in the end.
@@laowhy86 It's a good chance . I know the trucks will do that too .
About the only things left:
(1) Low compression. Easy to check.
(2) Vacuum leak. These cars have furlongs of fragile old rubber vacuum lines. Any crack or leak and the MAP sensor thinks you have the throttle wide open so the computer enriches the mixture and leans out your wallet. Needs a smoke test.
(3) Exhaust restriction. If the engine sounds like a braying mule at half throttle, the cat is badly clogged. If the engine goes hisssss for three seconds after turning it off, the cat is really badly clogged. A few days of soaking the cat in carbon cleaner or lye can do wonders.
I had an issue with the coolant temperature sensor on my 1990 K5 Blazer. Would send the wrong info to my computer and keep think it was cold. Making it always run rich.
Looking forward to the next video as my '86 TA has the same valve seat issue. It's been doing it for years but my car still idles beautifully (knock on wood).
I love your “Formula”! I’ve always wanted a “Trans Am” but I raised the bar and have a “ Corvette C6” and still I long for my parents once ’85 Trans Am” . Okay listen? Back then I had a brand new ‘89 Pontiac Le Mans” (yours a G.M. Pontiac -‘90) that did the exact same thing, it started to surge. I tracked it down to one defective spark plug wire. I don’t know if this helps but I wanted you to know!
Rob
My Fiero has a similar TBI system. You CAN hook u a scantool to these older cars and read sensor readings, my favorite is the Snap On MT2500. It looks like the vacuum lines are original, do you have a vacuum gauge? Coolant temp sensor (ECM) and oxygen sensor would be my primary culprits at this point.
I have an 89 with the mpfi v6, its been surging and even stalling sometimes, I've cleaned the IAC and replaced/adjusted the TPS. Hopefully cleaning the MAF or replacing the O2 sensor will fix this. Love these types of videos. Good luck on your valve stem seals
Been a while since I've seen a video from you. Your whole voice and demeanour seems more relaxed since leaving China. Glad to see you have time to do cool little projects like this.
Very interesting video! Thanks for your work!
Great video. Very informative. Looking forward to seeing the valve stem seal fix.
Yeouch! My 1994 Suburban with a 5.7L 350 gets 12-14 mpg, and it's been modified with a 4-barrel carburetor!
My chevy truck of the era (1990) gets over 20 mpg. Its a matter of checking spray pattern, checking all 3 sensors. The tbi was the simplest electronic fuel iection system invented.
Throttle body injection. My 89 Plymouth had the same sort of design. It had a really rapid spike of fuel when you touched the gas on it though. Made it a bit hard to drive.
For what its worth, Check the leads for the ECM, they get hot on the TBI systems and cause corrosion inside the connectors. Using electrical cleaner will help connectivity. Replacing the computer should only be done after each connecter is cleaned and fails. 90% of my TBI work has discovered burned connectors and poor conductivity. Hard to see with the eye unless your looking for it.
'Lovely stuff'. Not my words Michael. The words of Shakin Stevens
As in Alan Partridge😂👍🏼
20 is exactly what I got on mixed driving from a 305 tbi Iroc.
This is the early days of fuel injection. And 1956 or 57 Chrysler put out a car with port fuel injection. That worked perfectly except for the fact that they did not properly Shield the electronics package from stray Transmissions from bad Transformers on the power grid. And occasionally when you got near one of these bad Transformers the car would not run properly. When you take these boxes of part and you rewrap the problem resistors with the right insulating tape, they work flawlessly.
That said, the TBI system actually works quite well. The problem is the fact that they tried to cut so many corners to make it cheap enough to build and make plenty of money on. That and their learning curve was prohibitively slow, especially at General Motors.
Change valve springs while you're in there.
Blue puff of smoke on startup - yup - just saw that on a recent episode of Wheeler Dealers; you're right, they changed those rubber "umbrella" seals over the valve stems. Instant cure. Good luck!
For testing purposes an oxygen sensor can be replaced with a resistor, providing the same resistance as it gives for stoichiometric. This will affect consumption while cruising or idling though, since the defaults are safe values on the rich side. However, it will not affect consumption/mixture during acceleration, that is running in open loop, since o2 sensors are too slow.
For this car, replacing the o2 sensor with a resistor would probably give it a consumption comparable to a carb.
Stem seals are easy. Dont pull the heads. Just drill out a plug and tap it to a air fitting. Pressurize the cylinder and pull the springs. If its anything like my 88 sierra, an intake gasket is probably in your future as well. Your lucky you dont have the automatic. My favorite was when the modulator valve went and I ended up with transmission fluid in my radiator....... that was a head scratcher.
Love watching your videos! Also your other channels
My 1989 Chevy Caprice with tbi got 25 mpg on the highway. It made it 350,000 miles with the original engine and transmisson with no rebuilds.