Tempo Reality Check: Chopin, Etude Fm, Op. 10/9 - Feat. Pollini
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2024
- Pollini's Chopin recordings rightfully belong to the pinnacle of piano playing. And they are simply marvelous. In this series however we try to figure out how close (or far) they are to (or from) what Chopin intended. Checking the tempo is crucial since the tempo dictates many aspects of a performance including the character of the piece, something the composer definitely cared about.
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0:00 How do we know what Chopin intended?
3:05 Which methods we have to check tempo
4:02 Average tempo Pollini compared to Chopin
4:32 Opening tempo Pollini compared to Chopin
5:45 bar 29-36
6:48 bar 23-29
7:33 bar 49-57
8:18 bar 57-60
9:10 bar 61-62
11:49 Annick Goetler and Pollini synchronized
13:11 The score is important 
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As musicology is a poorly developed science. They can learn something from the beta sciences. Falsifiability by Karl Popper. A theory is falsifiable if it can be logically refuted with an empirical test. And single beat is proven wrong over and over again through many empirical examples. Hence single beat is falsified and thus incorrect.
@@dorette-hi4j not really as single beat believers claim it is always correct and the only correct interpretation of the metronome mark reading. Since it can be demonstrated over and over again that this is impossible for a lot of composed pieces. Hence single. Beat is falsified and incorrect.
Double beat works in all cases, yet certain pieces could be regarded as too slow...but now it becomes complicated. What is too slow? According to taste or personal preferences? Technically not possible?
So a lot simpler than you think.
@@solesius What makes you go wrong is that you look at metronome marks as if they were the laws of nature.
They are not, they are all - man made.
This is a
'blind spot' for wholebeaters.
I can write a m.m that is too fast for any number of reasons, if I use the metronome in single beat it is still - a single beat m.m.
And as long as there is no real evidence for whole beat - like a source that clearly explains that the metronome should be used that way - a too fast m.m is just, a too fast m.m.
@@olofstroander7745 That's a non-argument.
A metronome mark is a specific and clear indication on the speed intended by the composer. Tens of thousands or more pieces have EXACT numbers. You can downgrade it all you want. But the composer didn't write as fast as you like.
Thats a fact. Hence falsifiability can be applied here. Can't play it in single beat on superior piano's and 200+ years of padagogic and didactic development. Your single beat interpretation of the MM is incorrect.
Want to play it faster fine, play it slower fine. But if you can't reach the exact MM it can't be historically correct. Again logic and critical thinking skills would tell you this.
Denying the obvious and sticking once head in the sand and pretend there is nothing wrong is unscientific.
@@dorette-hi4j sure you can play it slower or faster. It's fun. I am sure Composers did it aswel in different venues. But most if not all composers had an original intended tempo. Hence EXACT MM. Not being able to play that speed is an empirical example of how an interpretation on MM is incorrect by definition. As it creates a problem instead of solving it. In beta sciences a theory that does this would not be taken seriously.
That's why musicology is illogical in it's inability to use logic to come to a reasonable conclusion.
Indoctrinated performance practice stops musicians from logically coming to the conclusion that single beat can't be correct because they can't play it in far too many cases, and in order to actually play it numerous alterations in the score have to be made not indicated by the composer.
@@dorette-hi4j This is a perfect example of how a musician or amateur musician, not sure if you are either, is not rigorously using logical reasoning and dancing around the problem instead of addressing it head on.
After everything that has been said…the issue isn’t wether composers were fluid in their MM. It’s not relevant at all. Nor is it relevant wether they stopped using them or not.
The problem is that many MM that were given, are too fast to play or sing. And considering we were building pyramids circa 4500 years ago. I am pretty sure these very intelligent and skilled composers with an uncanny feeling for rhythm and tempo were able to give accurate MM for their compositions. I highly doubt they used darts to determine their MM and accidentally ending up with an unplayable tempo.
Wether you believe WB is correct or not doesn’t matter. Logically you have to come to the conclusion single beat can’t be correct. Now the question becomes…’what solution is there for this (well documented since the 19th century) problem?
For any solution keep in mind Occam’s razor…’the solution with the least assumptions has to be the right one’.
This piece is for me exponentially more musical and intuitive in whole beat than in single beat.
I have always felt that way about Chopin without knowing why I didn't care for his music when people like Robert Schumann considered it of the highest genius. Now I hear it and have played it. I felt the same about Mozart, always wondering why I loved his "slow" movements but didn't find much to like in the "fast" ones. Now I know why Hayden and Beethoven held him in such high regard.
My piano teacher taught me to play this on whole beat. He just didn't explain it to me and I didn't know what I was doing!
Very persuasive.
Curious what your evidence might be that 1.) Pollini considers achievement of the metronome mark as a necessity to an “authentic” or musically viable performance, and that 2.) this recording / performance is the fastest Pollini could possibly play it, notwithstanding any musical considerations.
And if you want to do a “tempo reality check,” why not one of the faster available recordings, like Solomon, who basically hits single beat tempo on the head?
@@zulice4341 typical of WW’s videos. He chooses some popular pianists and pretends as if tempi the pianists chose are their limitation even though they tried to reach metronome markings. In reality most of pianists wouldn’t try to play in exact tempo!
That is not the point- Pollini chooses a tempo that is not Chopin's. That's a fact, a choice, not a problem. One could debate the question forever if the original metronome mark drives musicians to these very high untenable speeds or not, but let's keep it there is a high chance they do. Reverse the idea: what would Pollini answer to the idea that Chopin's MMs were original WB? Point is that, even Pollini is slower than Chopin, he must slow down so much on several places, and almost the entire last page, to speeds exactly or lower than WB, that one can safely says a) he doesn't follow the intention of the composer since none of that is indicated in the score nor a practice of that time/Chopin and b) the compromises were made because of the too high tempo- at the minimum compared to what he thought necessary in the last page - while being 20% under Chopin's indicated (supposedly) tempo. That is the point of these videos. It proves that SB tempi could never have been the intention of the composer. All the rest - what Pollini's intention is, thought process, .... is unimportant.
Great Video!
I've been looking forward to more on Chopin because I really want to finally love his music.
Very funny to hear someone talk about 'the character of the piece' who at the same time thinks that a piece marked - molto agitato -
should be played so slowly, that the possibility of any agitato character at all is next to zero.
When you drive hours on the German highway to then access a normal road at 70, it will feel slow. I do not recommend stepping out of the care though.
@@dorette-hi4jIn 1820 Paris already had rail road. By the year of 1849 there were a lot of destinstions going from Paris, you can check it in Chopin's agenda of 1849. Of course they were slow... But for that time it was the fastest they could ever travel.
@@dorette-hi4j I was just making clear that traveling at fast speed was a new trend in the time of Chopin, and yes, trains have influenced a lot of music... But that is not the point. Pianoforte can play fast but can't repeat fast, so you still have a problem... That quintuplet is just unplayable in a modern piano, muchless in a pianoforte pleyel with simple escapment action.
@@dorette-hi4j According to a Chopin's Student, Chopin's Pleyel responded better than Liszt's Erard, that's how good Erads were back in the day... Even with double escapment... The vienese pianos were the fastest back in the day. There is also a quotation on a Chopin's recital in Britain about an Etude in F minor that people refer as the op 25 n2 but for me it's op. 10 n.9 saying that he played an etude in F minor that regarded an Opera Aria. If it's about op. 10 n.9 i think it's clear the freedom that Chopin took in that Etude (he was very hill in that concert and had to be taken in arms to the piano).
@@dorette-hi4jthe analogy is perfectly sound. It has nothing to do with mode of transportation, but with perception of speed. 70km/h feels excruciatingly slow when you slow down from 160+ km/h, but quite fast when you speed up from 40 km/h. The same is true for tempo if you are accustomed to Pollini and are suddenly confronted with whole beat.
Francis Plantes recordings disprove your theory, he heard chopin playing himself and he plays sometimes at a very fast tempo, but never in a very unusual slow tempo.
Hello, I found a Michalowski print, edition Gebethner & Wolff ca.1927, where the marking tempo for the pointed crotchet is 88. I don't know but this might be another level of problem, the different editions, and which one is the accurate, or which one is accurate for a particular pianist rather than another one.
We have Michalowski’s recordings which are very fast and leave no doubts of how he had read and interpreted metronome indications. The fact that he changed ("corrected") this marking (to make it more suitable for pianos of his era) only confirms it.
Dear Vim. I am real enthusiast of your work. I’d love to see a thorough review about Schubert Impromptus. I feel they are a bit fast and unarticulated especially the G-flat major.Andras Schiff had a lovely masterclass for 2 impromptus and he said the G-flat has to flow like a little channel or river but I feel it is just too fast. Please make a recording if you can. I’d love to hear your honest opinion. 😊
If that was true, shouldn't the metronome be built to click only every other swing?
Is it perfectly clear and out of discussion that early metronomes were exactly based on bpm like today's? Not that they were inaccurate or broken, but just different, like Celsius vs Fahrenheit...?
Is Op 10. No 6. already played in WB conventionally by the majority of modern pianists? Chopin gives dotted 1/4 note = 69, but most performances are 1/8 note = 69 (with some newer editions even changing the original tempo marking).
How about John Browning's version?
Hey, Wim. After seeing some comments regarding your remarks on the importance of the character of the piece yet you playing the piece "so slowly," despite Chopin marking it "Allegro molto agitato," I feel like I should make a comment of my own, not to fight/argue, or to prove/disprove whole beat/single beat, but just to give my honest two cents, so hopefully no one starts a fight in the replies 😅 BUT I know how the internet works, so I'm already bracing myself 😂The first time I've heard this Étude was actually in whole beat, from one of your videos, Wim, and, when I heard it, played exactly as Chopin marked it, dotted quarter note = 96, I immediately felt/understood why he marked it "molto agitato." Unlike what some say, it doesn't feel slow at all to me in whole beat. In fact, it feels very agitated, actually, and quite restless, as Chopin indicated. I can even imagine Chopin himself in front of his piano, playing this piece restlessly at the speed he indicated with his metronome mark. The first time I ever heard it played in single beat, or as close as one can get to it anyway, was through this video, Pollini's performance, and, I have to say, at that speed, for me personally, it doesn't feel like "Allegro molto agitato" anymore. At that speed, it just feels like Prestissimo, play as fast as you can. This might sound weird, and, again, feel free to disagree, but, for me, at some point, it becomes so fast that you hardly feel the "agitation" anymore. It's like when something is moving fast enough that it essentially becomes invisible or like a blur. That's what it felt like to me when I heard Pollini played it. It surprised me somewhat 'cause it's just so fast that, again, it's basically a blur at that point and you don't have time to really feel/process anything, even agitation.
Again, I'm not really trying to argue for/against here, just trying to give my honest feelings. Looking at it from that respect, what Wim says DOES actually make sense. I can actually hear and feel it, not just taking his word for it, you know. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't always agree with everything he says/does, how he responds to criticism sometimes, for example. But, for the most part, personally for me, when I hear these pieces played in WBMP, it DOES feel right. It makes sense. I've heard others describing the Italian tempo words, "Allegro," "Adagio," "Lento" and all that, as not a direct indication of speed exactly but more of the character of the piece, like Wim says, or the mood, if you will, and I can kinda see that. After all, that's why the metronome was invented in the first place, right, so musicians at the time could give a less vague and more direct speed indicator. For this particular Étude, played exactly according to Chopin's own metronome mark, dotted quarter note = 96, the character of the piece DOES feel exactly "Allegro molto agitato," as Chopin indicated.
Anyway, like I said, these are just my honest two cents. Feel free to disagree, though I'm hoping everyone will be civilized 😅 Regardless of whether the WBMP is true or not, I DO enjoy listening to these amazing, beautiful pieces/compositions at these slower tempi/speeds, so please keep doing what you're doing, Wim. I always look forward to whatever you or Alberto will play next 🥰 Thanks for all your hard work!
I would also recomend Bernhard Ruchti recording in WBMP of op.10. There are smorzandos that justify some of Pollini's tempo changes but not everywhere... Also reading hairpins as an agogic marking and not a dinamic marking afects tempo changes. Nevetheless "a tempo" means going back to tempo primo and in this case whole beat is the only solution because is THE solution to all this nonsense speeds people whant to play because they eared someone play that way... It's like the "wrecked phone". Pollini was my introduction to Chopin Etudes back in the 90´s and is a super pianist, but we have to face the facts...
Ruchti generally plays considerable faster than whole beat, and the rubati he makes are of the same nature. it is a much different approach then ours
Looking very much forward to the release of Alberto's Chopin recordings! I've been working on a couple of Waltzes marked 'Lento' and only using the pedal where Chopin indicated it.. a challenge, at least on a modern piano, but with practice things start to fall beautifully into place! Putting pedal everywhere now makes the music sound 'wrong', the brain has adapted to something else.
@@dorette-hi4j Totally agree. What I meant is using exactly the pedal markings that Chopin gave (where possible to ascertain that), which are not exactly the indications that appear in some later editions of his music or that are employed by pianists. So I am not talking about choice of pedalling, but about following Chopin's choice, or at least that which most likely would have been his choice, that notated in the score, exactly for the reason explained in your quote.. people's overuse of the pedal.
The closest to a 'Chopin Pleyel' that I have tried is an early 19th century Broadwood fortepiano. In spite of the two pianos being very different instruments, they share a 'grand English action' (even though I am not sure whether they are exactly the same, need to check..) and both are straight strung. In terms of pedalling, I noticed that it is possible to keep the pedal down for longer on the Broadwood compared to a modern piano before the sound starts to become muddled. So, maybe when playing at the modern piano one needs to do more pedal changes vs the notated ones in the score, for obvious reasons. However, I believe, not the opposite, which is using the pedal in places where there shouldn't be any according to the score. At least one should try for enough time before dismissing the possibility.
My experience with the waltzes I mentioned, is that I used to play them with pedal throughout and it is taking me quite a while to find the flow without pedal. I am however finding it and enjoying it very much! The release of the note plays an important role. The music changes completely, in my case, to my delight. But to make the change, it takes time!
Totally agree that there is much to be learned from Chopin’s pedal markings and rethinking our inheritance of late 19th- and early 20th-century pedal technique. I have yet to see this manifest in any of the recordings posted on this channel, though.
@@zulice4341 Specifically talking about Chopin, Alberto's recordings of the Preludes do follow Chopin's pedal markings.
@@theclavierist They may follow the pedal changes more or less, but using a late 19th-century technique. To be fair, I don’t know if I have ever heard a pianist or fortepianist pull this off- but the recordings I’ve heard here use syncopated pedaling, a technique that comes mostly from the generation after Liszt. It’s how all pianists today learn how to use the pedal, so it’s very tricky to unlearn. It’s not difficult to see from Chopin’s careful markings that he did not use the pedal for legato connection between harmonies and phrases the way we do now- but rethinking this is pretty radical and would take a lot of work. (Necessary though, I think, if one is going to suggest using “authentic” pedaling!)
@@zulice4341 I understand your point and it is interesting. I don't know enough on the subject to elaborate. I guess though that the answer may remain a mystery to us unless Chopin came back and showed us exactly what he did :-) maybe, for the genius that he was, he used the pedal in all sorts of ways, unbound to the common pedalling technique of his contemporaries, who knows.. At least we can use the pedal where he marked it and that is a good starting point and it is an objective piece information. It may take us closer to the answer regardless of technique.
By the way, could you point me to any source that describes with some degree of clarity this early 19th century pedalling technique you mentioned? I would be curious to look at it.
Tempo is defined by various functions that are found in every piece, but mainly harmony and thematic development, but mainly harmony is the main driving force of tempo... more analysis of harmony is needed... Read the harmony part by Wallace Berry. It deals with the definition of tempo and other factors in musical interpretation...
Why the tempo marking then? Of course it has an impact but don't you think that's over the tempo marking as an indicator of doing whatever you like. First tempo indication, THEN and only then slight tempo fluctuations made by the harmony.
@@davcaslop this is about interpretation of each interpreter can find some fluctuations in tempo, depends on each person in music thinking...
@@alcoreiter2 Again, once you obey the initial tempo. You are not a machine, and some passages suggest slight rits and accel. But you cannot, to start with, pay attention to the slightest detail harmonically to justify that you didn’t read one of the firsts things that are on the score. That’s the point. And to argue that those numbers aren’t important is just laying down to everyone that Chopin’s biography hasn’t been read or any info about tempo indications. I am not accusing you of any of this. Just accept that those numbers are there and we have to do something with them.
@@davcaslop ya no te voy a responder, no me estás entendiendo... aquí se acaba esta discusión...
yes, but that results in "a" tempo choice. Which Chopin marked for his piece. It's a choice to respect that or not but few musicians will say they do not. While in practice they actually do, mostly unwillingly because of the unattainable speeds in single beat
Those who have ears, let them hear 🙂⭐❤🙏🏼
Wouldn't there have been student lesson books in the 19th century? Surely these would have explained exactly how the metronome was used? And if the meaning had changed over the century there would be documentation of this change or at least a different explanation early in the century from later in the century.
Czerny wrote instructions and this channel has covered this topic. There are several interpretations of his words. Your interpretation depends on whether you believe Czerny's instructions were beginners or experienced players. If his instructions were for beginners then beginners should be able to play his metronome marks, yes?
yes, there is, our book will provide lots of material. The bottom line here is - if Single Beat causes so many problems and in many instances is not even possible - then single beat should not be seen as the (at the minimum only) default position. One cannot expect history to give an answer to a wrong perspective on it, those answers will come only when one considers the other option as default.
@@dorette-hi4j There's also the Moscheles/Feti "Method of Methods" which was one of the most widely used manuals in the 19th century.
The description of the metronome use leaves no doubt one should read it in single beat.
Slowing down is totally fine and appropriate. Sure, Chopin didn’t mark it ritenuto. But just do the obvious.
Why would a composer ever want the pianist to slow down to ca. half tempo when using fast note values? And why is that slowdown then not indicated when other tempo changes are explicitly indicated?
Hmm, your quest on „what the composer had in mind“ should result in a composer zombie mob screaming „what are you doing to our music?“ It seems like you are seriously trapped in your utterly dogmatic way of thinking.
Ahh Pollini! The very reason I stopped listening to piano music (So rushed and unmusical to my ears). This channel brought me back. Thank you!
In my youth when learning piano, I often found Tempo Markings to be either impossibly fast, or painfully slow. I tried, what I now know, to be called Single Beat and Whole Beat interpretations. Neither seemed to work well.
Do you think that the Whole Beat Tempo Markings may have been provided for a "general public" without any special skills or musical aptitude so they could get started learning a piece of music without being intimidated into not trying?
Perhaps they indicated the "slowest tempo" a piece could be played at, and would still approach the Composer's intentions. As in my youth, I still find Whole Beat Tempo Markings to sound about 20-35% too slow. It's clear that Single Beat is usually physically impossible, or sounds ridiculously unmusical.
The way we perceive sound is heavily based around our lives and the sounds we were to exposed to during our upbringing, it is completely possible that the tempi we find too slow were perfectly fine at the time. I thought about solutions like what you proposed, but iirc there are cases of some of these composers being very strict about their tempi being followed.
@@DMSBrian24 Certainly our upbringing can have a significant and long lasting impact on our lives. In my case, I rejected many more deeply ingrained customs, teachings, and traditions than I've retained, and substantially and happily embraced different and better informed ones. Still, subconscious tendencies can persist, but we can be more flexible/adaptable, and transformative than we might expect. Who I was in my youth and who am now as an adult are more than worlds apart.
@@picksalot1 Take some Beethoven sonata and give the whole beat another try. Even the slow movements. Didn't take me long to adjust, add some rubato, move tempo up and down with hairpins.
@@tamirlyn I've done such tests with other Composers many times. Years ago, I suggested to Wim to use software to adjust performance tempos so we could hear them at Whole and Single Beat Tempo, as that is very revealing and dramatic.
I have a free plugin for my browser called "Enhancer for RUclips" that lets me easily speed up and slow down video/audio small increments . Sometimes I like the audio at Whole Beat Tempos, but usually find it too slow. I've also spent time listening to longer pieces at Whole Beat Tempos, and that does help them sound more natural.
Whole Beat tempi are not for "amateurs" either. Just ask a music school student today to play the opus 10/9 in whole beat strictly in time. But of course - technically it becomes easier which should not surprise us. We travel back (also technically) almost 200 years in time!
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