I believe what you mentioned around minute 6:00 is inaccurate. The gain control actually comes before the analog-to-digital conversion, which is why it still matters on a digital console. We adjust the gain to optimize the signal for the converters, helping them perform as well as possible. While I agree that increasing gain doesn’t “open up the sound” (since 99% of digital mixer preamps are very transparent and converters dynamic range is usually adequate even without a very loud signal), gain control is still a digital interface for an analog process. Setting the gain 6 dB higher and then reducing the fader by 6 dB isn’t the same as doing the opposite, even without factoring in nonlinear processes like compressors or gates. This difference occurs because one adjustment happens before the ADC (analog-to-digital conversion) and the other after. It may not create a noticeable difference in sound, but it’s not the same process. The same concept applies to output. For instance, cranking your power amps while trimming the signal significantly from the matrix output isn’t equivalent to the reverse, though in this case, your method is more practical.
This is also another reason (besides the one you already mention in the video) why balancing levels solely with the gain control is generally not an ideal practice.
This is correct. The preamp gain is analog. What he described would be more akin to digital Trim. Trim is just raising or lowering the digital signal. To understand the difference between preamp gain and say fader level we can pretend for a moment that our audio system runs on water. If our audio systems were water based the preamp gain is more like a pump and the fader level is more like a valve. One can increase the amount of water flowing through the system and the other can only decrease it. Of course, this is only an example and not really how it works weather analog or digital.
@@SamueleForte depends on the environment and what you're actually tweaking. some consoles have an automatic pregain on the analog stage, which you don't get to tweak, and then you have a digital trim control. i don't understand how this could be better than what you mentioned tho.
Just to add, when working with A&H digital mixers, setting input gain to 0.db on the meters equates to -18dbfs in the digital realm as opposed to -18 on the Midas mixers. All the same outcome, just a different approach from the various manufacturers.
I realized that mid broadcast a few weeks back when none of my "-6dB" sources were hitting yellow, lol. No wonder I was fighting the desk so hard up til then...
You are right on point. Another option to pull things up or down for an improperly sized speaker system is to use a DCA. Just did it the other day, needed to be outputting roughly -30 because the venue speakers were that overpowered. Threw everything on a DCA and pulled that back. Perfect. I can properly gain stage and use all the faders, including the master, in the sweet spot. One thing you missed though is that gain does effect the sound. On a digital console you are adjusting the preamp into the AD converter. You aren't getting the most out of that conversion if your gain is too low. A little bit isn't gonna be that bad, but you are losing detail.
I agree with the last part; however, reducing the signal by 30 dB before the DAC has a similar problem, just in reverse. You’re essentially removing 30 dB of dynamic range from the DAC instead of the ADC.
@SamueleForte Absolutely which is why it's important to properly size and level the speaker system itself so that you can come out of the board at a good full level. At my gig I used as an example turning the amps down on the PA would have been a way better solution. But sometimes you can't do that (the venue didn't want the amps touched) and at that point it becomes a question of where to take the hit. In general I lean towards taking the hit on the output. Maximizing what I have to work with throughout and taking one hit on the way out. But there is a point where you are losing so much fidelity on the DA side that you end up better off giving up a little bit on the AD side to leave a bit more to be had on DA.
With all the information on the internet concerning gain, I'm surprised this still needs to be explained to people. Such a fundamental concept. That being said....great video.
I learned this concept about gain structure maybe about two years ago. Some of my instructors, self taught at that, didn’t set up gain this way. I’d always been taught to place it at zero and then begin adding gain. 🤷♂️ And I’ve met other engineers who set gains so randomly and somehow manage to make it sound presentable. 😅
Great video. Only thing i dissagree with is when you said there is no difference between gain kmob gain or fader gain. There is only one gain knob. The fader is a volume or level control. Sure they both can turn a signal up or down. The gain knob adds the voltage a mic needs to be at a proper signal to noise ratio. Imagine the gain knob like its a flow valve for a plumbing system. If a person has a fader way up and the gain too far down the mic wont sound its best because its kinda choked out or restricted. So gain does open up the sound of a mic for fidelity. You did hit the nail on the head about the system volume being up too loud. I think thats where many screw up. Always finish up with metering from the mixer then slowly turn up your amps to an appropriate level. So in a way the mixer itself is like a valve sending flow to the amp.
I brought up the same issue. A gain control can alter, or harm the signal. A volume control can't. If the faders control volume, which they almost always do, then he's right. You can put the volume anywhere you want and it won't harm the signal. You can't do the same with gain control.
I've been mixing live shows for 25 years and do everything exactly as you have described. I would agree with video 100% and preach that gain-staging is the most important part of mixing.
You're in correct in stating that gain will not open up the sound. Always remember, to get the full resolution from any digital desk, i.e., 48k, your gain stage must be at least -16dbfs RMS. This comes directly from Robert schovill.
Gain can't effect your bit rate. Its an analog adjustment that's made by varying the signal strength. Digital gain, or trim, is adjusted by altering the bit rate. As you lower your trim, resolution goes down the more you lower it. That's why its recommended to set your analog gain first, and can be a large adjustment. Trim is meant to be used for small adjustments. What your post is referring to is adjustments made while the signal is digital. For full resolution, all digital gain and volume controls have to be set to max. Bringing any of them down will lower resolution. In reality, as long as you are working with good quality digital, 16/44 and up, small adjustments will not be audible.
You spot on with this. I couldn't have said it better. I've seen too many operaters make the same mistaks and over gain. It sound distorted and has no dynamics. Live mixing is totally different to recording. Always make sure you have a good sound check. My hint is get the bass player to slap the bass, that one always causes popping when you don't want it.
I actually found live mix to be really close to studio recording, just the focus is more on problem solving and less on finding the perfect sound. But I started as a live mix engineer and now mixing in studio a lot of the knowledge translated directly, specially the monitor mix knowledge
I would like to add something about this. Because a digital desk uses A/D conversion, the digital signal is in bits. So low signal results in less bit, so a lower resolution. This is not only for the direct signal of a mic, like the singers voice, but also for crosstalk of other acoustic sounds the singers mic is capturing. So you need to get the best of both worlds. Good gain for good signal resolution, but also keep in mind to have a good fader resolution.
I'm not a trained sound guy, but know a little from experience and self reasoning. In theory, where the gain is applied does not matter. But this is only true if all your sound equipment is noise free. If you have a piece such as an amp, electronic drums kit, bad microphone that hisses when it's gain is turned up, then that is a time to consider where the gain is applied. We have an electronic drum kit that hisses when its own volume is turned up, so gain staging here is important to eliminate that hiss, turn the volume knob down on the kit and turn the gain up on your much better sound board.
On the topic of right gain staging before effects, most of my professors have stayed unanimous with the following logic: you can't get the best result out of your fancy plugins, if you cant gain stage right. The idea behind it was that quality plugins tend to be emulations of physical effect units, and since the old physical effects tended to expect the signal coming in at about 0 VU, or as we now call it -18 dBFS, that makes it so the plugins too, are expecting the signal at about that level, and it has to do not just with staying in the limits of your thresholds or whatever, but also about the intended coloration of the sound, which was embedded in the design of the original effect unit.
I'm new to mixing, using a small simple digital mixer ( XR18 ). After studying things I made my first live mix pretty much the way you described. I figured out how important setting my gain was. While not necessarily shooting for -18, I was watching the meter on every channel and setting gain to between -20 and -15. That seemed to give me the headroom yet full sound I needed without maxing the faders on channels or main. Thanks for the video, I have so much to learn. I view this as the basics, everything seems to build on this.
At our venue, there is a London Soundweb Blu-50 processor, setup by the installers years ago. I have just now discovered what it actually does, the installers put a global input gain of 18 db before it went to the crossover, eq, delay, and output gain sections they setup. I knew I was fighting something trying to get the board gain up so I could use the multiband compressor. All the wireless mics had their sensitivity turned way down to accommodate this. For the past 3 months I've been inching that gain down to 6 db now so as not to have a drastic noticeable change in the venue that I couldn't overcome with on-the-fly adjustments.
Great video. When I worked at my old theatre house I found that putting all my faders at 0 and gaining them to almost feedback level and then bringing the faders down to -5 gave me the best gain to work with. This was also after years of working in the same house and just doing musicals and plays with them. Very sensitive mics and lots of dynamic range, and this was the most efficient gain staging for it because you could also run all the mics at level and essentially have everyone be the same level. This came in handy when I needed to find parts in a harmony. I only ever gained this way in that house though and found that knowing proper gain staging techniques really matter when working in a house you’re not as comfortable in.
Great tutorial and hits home with me moving to a digital mixer, as you say totally different gain structure. I bought the Yamaha DM3 which is an amazing little board but the gain structure has taken some getting used to.
I am one of these guys that I use the unity gain as a starting point on faders and turning on the gain knob till reaching the -18 to -12 dBfs, in order to have the best resolution that I can. If the speaker system is overpowered then I am turning down the system, as if you have an overpowered system and you leave it like this then you overpower all the noises from the electronic circuits and all the interferences and also in case of any unpredictable feedback the situation is going very bad. In case of a need of more power to any output like the monitors outputs, there is a solution that the mixing station has (if you have a digital mixer that is supported from the mixing station) that is called Re-Gain . Is an amazing solution that you can adjust the gain from your channel without messing up with all the other sends that are related to this channel, as it lowers all the sends accordingly with the gain increasments.
What’s generally worked for me over the years is to align the clip points of the mix master, mix bus EQ (flat) and amplifier inputs. Reduce amplifier sensitivity until it clips when the EQ does, which should clip when the bus driving it does - this gets you darn close to good fader resolution.
I believe it depends on the sound source. For example a drum. The fundamental note is the strongest but there is more information that follows. So if you set the gain to the fundamental notes volume then the rest of the information is too low. Which then means you will have to boost a lot in the eqs higher register to pull out any stick definition. I believe using an RTA showing the overall picture is a good approach. That way the entire signal is strong and any frequencies that are offensive can easily be turned down with eq. Drums are just one example of this.
I agree with everything you said, except that the gain gain is the same as the fader gain. Gain gain is always (as far as I know) the gain of the analog preamp _before_ the AD converter: it’s not, by definition, a linear kind of gain, while fader gain is linear, meaning it doesn’t introduce any kind of harmonic content into the signal. That said, I don’t think that on any digital mixer this is in any way relevant: what makes the preamp introduce harmonics or change the sound is not the amount of gain you introduce, but the level the signal comes in at. If I have a low signal and I need lots of gain to get it to -18dBFS it will sound exactly the same (especially in the context of a live mix) as if the same signal was much louder and I needed little to no gain to get it to my target This is all to advocate that the gain should be set with the meters and with a specific target in mind, and not in any other way, as you will load the preamps differently from channel to channel and from night to night, introducing the potential to make them sound slightly different every time (of course these preamps are made to be as linear as possible, they’re not at all like the preamp on a studio console that introduce lots of coloration, so I’m sure that everything I said in real life is much less exaggerated than I made it out to be)
I was going to say something very similar as I'm currently learning the specifics of an older (early 2000's) Tascam DM4800 digital mixer and the manual explicitly delineates gain applied to the analog input section prior to A/D conversion from the digital "trim" that happens just after the conversion. In essence, I can drive the analog preamp into saturation with the gain knob (without clipping the A/D converters) and still lower the digital gain back to -16dbfs RMS before the signal hits my channel, using digital trim. However, I have no experience with modern digital mixers and how their design might differ, but I have to assume they follow this same logic unless it's uncommon to include a digital trim function. I think of it as analogous to a digital interface with my DAW, where I can take I'm a hot signal but "clip gain" the recording down before the signal hits, say an analog-modeled plugin for example.
@ Personally, I’ve never worked with a modern mixer with a digital trim. I know they exist, but I think they might be included only on higher end models (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). But in my opinion it’s not worth chasing the preamp saturation on these mixers anyway, as the preamps are cheap-ish and I just risk clipping the converter (which nobody wants). If it’s present then the digital trim serves only the purpose of getting the fader to sit around the 0 mark, not correcting any overgaining of the signal in input. Of course in the studio, with higher end or even boutique preamps, it’s a whole different story.
Hey thanks for the comment. You're right I could have been a little clearer when talking about the preamp gain being before the converter so they're not exactly the same. As I'm sure you gathered though, the main point was to advocate for proper gain staging and show people I do it, and justify why I do it that way. If I'd written all of the above then a beginner would simply give up, but I do think it's important and I should've mentioned preamp gain vs digital gain. So I hope you'll forgive my technical oversight :)
@@OffshoreAudio There can be some different behaviour with digital mixers regarding gain and trim functions, especially when using stage boxes. For example, if you have a single DL32 and connect two M32 mixers, or daisy chain two DL32's to a single network cable to a M32 and then daisy chain a second M32. In the Midas ecosystem (and I believe this applies to other brands as well), only one mixer can control the gain of the preamp in the stage boxes, which is selectable in the settings (headamp control). The other mixers will switch to digital trim, using the gain knob to control it. Sounds logic when you think about it, but can be a real hussle in the field when running such setups, and can get really complex real fast, not resulting in the gain staging you prefer. You can simulate this behaviour using M32 Edit. Switch inputs in the routing screen (local to AES50A and back) and watch what happens to the channel input section. It will change between gain and trim, while also changing the scale of the control. With actual gear, when set to AES50, the trim is displayed. As soon as you connect a stage box to the mixer, the mixer will enable headamp control and change the control to gain. Immediatly after disconnect, the mixer will change back to trim.
I've had a similar experience with an M32R connecting to a stage box (Midas DL16), and daisy chained through the DL16's AES50B port to a Behringer SD8 on the AES50A port. All kinds of controls were lost on the SD8, such as gain (it went into trim mode) and 48V switchability. Really frustrating.
My personal steps are (and the way I was taught): 1) Mute the channel 2) Set the Gain to between -18 and -15 dB 3) Unmute the channel and slowly bring the fader up 4) Set the Noise Gate 5) Set the Compressor or Freq Filter 6) EQ I do disagree with what you said that the Gain doesn't change the sound. It may not change it in a way that a person with a booming voice will suddenly sound like Mickey Mouse, but it DOES change the sound enough that you WILL have to re-EQ. If you need to re-EQ, then that means the sound changed.
isnt it smarted to set the compressor after the eq? eq cuts and boosts will affect general volume, compressing after eq gives you more control, and increase the compressor performance as it will not have to treat frequecies that you will be cut anyways
@@MrProveyron As a general rule I prefer not to boost anything with the EQ, I rather use the EQ to cut almost exclusively, save a few exceptions, particularly with instruments. The compressor will diminish all frequencies, unless used as a freq filter. When used as a regular compressor, I use it mostly to prevent saturation and distortion. That way I can use the EQ only on those problematic frequencies. The only case on which I may use the compressor after the EQ would be when using it as a freq filter, to remove the "SS" for example. That's at least the way I use and view things, not saying my way is the only correct one 😅
"I do disagree with what you said that the Gain doesn't change the sound." That's not something to debate. You have it right. Gain does change how something sounds. That's why its so important to gain stage properly. A volume control can't alter the signal, only gain can. There's a reason why you never hear the term volume staging. As far as the signal itself goes, it doesn't matter where a volume control is set. In the video, he should have said volume faders, not gain faders. He seems like he really knows what he's doing. I'm sure he'll update the post.
I disagree with your "all gain is the same comment". preamps have a character when driven hard. When I am on a M32, I tend to gain the bass channel up until the clip indicator is flickering, then compress the signal and /or run the fader well down below the zero mark. The sound of the bass opens up at this level of gain, It sounds better. its in a sweet spot. It is a technique I learned on an H3K, the midas preamps change when you push them. it is really wonderful.
Another thing to consider is what type of person will using the mic, if is a rock star that scream a lot or a man doing a lecture on a university class. And what type of voice is, if it a soft-spoken person (call angel voice) or a person with a loud voice. So there is not a "one for all" setting.
-18db is a good starting point for digital mixer. however some model like Allen & Heath Qu and SQ series, uses Analog meters in digital boards, so we still aim for 0 to -10db (depending on the dynamic range of instrument). Good to check with the manuals what meters is being used. *i presume this design is for easier transition for those from analog mixer and also safer to avoid clipping.
One part of gain staging I never hear people talk enough about is the gain nob on the wireless mic receiver or instrument and/or instrument Amp? Keyboard player has a volume nob? Bass Amp has a master volume nob? Guitarist has a volume nob on his guitar? At what point and how to set THOSE levels???
keyboard all the way up, cause they always turn it up mid-performance. Bass and guitar amp you should let the musicians be confortable with their volume, if it’s a small venue it’s better to keep it low and send it on monitors, if it’s a bigger stage as loud as they want/need
A guitar volume knob is really part of the player's tonal pallette. Many players modulate it to achieve specific tones. Others just leave it wide open when playing. As long as you get a line check with it wide open, you'll be good. I don't chase guitar knobs with my preamp gain - if needed I use the fader.
in my digital guitar pedalboard the volume knob is basically a trim (like an audio inferface monitor knob), so basically if you set proper gainstaging while creating patches you can leave it at max.
So in my experience, the answer really varies. Ideally the musicians would set their volume and then if they needed more of themselves later in the show they would ask the engineer for more monitor signal and not turn up on their own as that would affect not only the gain stage, but any FX or Dynamics processing down the line since it bascially is the same as the vocal example listed in the video. While some guitarists and bassists have a specific sound they are going for based on their amp, depending on the venue and set up, it is ludicrous to expect the majority of the sound to come out of their amp, therefore, same concept as what someone mentioned earlier and let the system do the work and the amps for the musicians to feel good on stage. A bass amp turned up all the way will be blasting to try and keep up with a pair of subs at the front of the stage or whatever. It would produce a more even sound and distribute lows better across the audience then having them turn up on stage so much that you are just introducing mud from the FOH system. Let alone timing issues with delay if you want to really start to get into the weeds about it. TL;DR Let the musicians be at a comfy level and ask them to just communicate with the engineer if they need more in the monitors and ask them not to turn up if avoidable and to communicate if they need to do so.
Very helpful as both an overview and a reminder. However since so much of this video is oriented to the sound tech using a digital mixer (other than a brief mention at the beginning about the history of gain staging), it might be valuable to expand the gain plan to encompass those who still use analog. I expect that there are many small venues, bands, and tech teams who, like me, still use analog.
Oh and another thought/question for the crowd: should powered speakers always be turned up all the way? It seems like a good way to be sure that you aren’t limiting yourself but also seems to be a good way to lose control quickly…. JAT (just a thought)
@@capriccioespagnole778 I use a SM58 with 25db of gain and turn up the PA until it feels good to me and with time i have my references so i know if the Pa is loud enough
@@capriccioespagnole778 Yeah I don't agree with the full volume on the speakers either, you get a bunch of unnecessary white noise by doing that, it is always better to set the speakers to the top desired volume using a controlled source, for example a phone, plug it into the mixer, play music, set the master fader to 0 and adjust speaker volume to get the MAX amount of volume you might need, then add a bit more just in case and call it a day, you get less noise and even less feedback, since the speakers will contribute less noise to the stage sound
What you are saying is very true. -18dbfs is the " digital equivelent " in most mixers for a 0db reference level. This is not a hard fast rule, but as long as you are at or slightly above -18dbfs, you are in the " textbook " range for setting level. When you " cook " the headamps, you are setting yourself up for trouble. Fader resolution is a thing, and even digital mixers use a logarithmic curve on all the trims. This can lead to a hair trigger with the sends for how much signal is sent. This is really bad for monitors. After years of testing the theory, gain is gain is gain. Feedback will occur at the same relative SPL regardless of where the trims are set, but since the resolution is so bad at lower trim settings, a small change can be enough to be stable/not stable with the touch of the knob. Gain staging is real, and perhaps less pertinent than it used to be, where you had to use " every bit " avaialable, but is still important. Do it right, and the mixer will operate in an expected and repeatable manor.
Becomes interesting when you have a DJ board. I would like to know your thoughts on using an external device like a DDJ-800 board and how you would set the gain on the channel(s) it is running into while still allowing the DJ to turn up the volume when applicable.
I remember being taught the fader at zero the gain up at uni for one particular reason. The lecturer said you'd do that if you're working a venue where the public is more capable of coming up and ruining you're mix. If they start messing with faders then you just set them back to 0 instead of trying to remember where everything was. But that advice feels outdated with most digital systems (might still be useful for analogue). Cause in venues like that, just lock the desk when you're done!
I agree with you 90% of the video. But the part that gain doesn’t do anything to the signal, and is just like a input fader I really disagree. I’ve tested my self recording the same audio on diferent input levels and then Normalize them to check the diferences and even in the wave you can see that there is a difference, and yes, sound wise, there is too. Of course if you re talking about a 100$ mixing board it doesnt make a difference but with a bit more expensive ones, you start to hear it for sure. No to say that you should hear it and turn it up until it sounds “good”, but there will be a difference in diferent levels.
Hi everyone, I think what him metioned around minute 6:11 is incorrect. I think the gain knob is adjust the analog preamp on the digital mixer, it's amplify the signal and add more saturations, or colors that can change the sound source! Who can tell me the true? Feel free to discuss. Thanks all
Feel like anyone that says gain doesnt affect the sound of a mic hasnt done livestreams with lapels and/or lecterns. Interested to hear if people still try to get them to -18dbfs (at actual talking distance) or if you can settle on lower in that case. From my experience the difference between a 22db microflex and a 35db microflex is quite big, especially when it comes to how distance affects level output.
So most times when am at an event I mute all the I/O first and then I set my gain first making sure it's hitting the 18-20dbfs and that's when I set where my Bus fader and Channel sends faders level after... This helps me to get the desirable sound and optimize my speakers 🔊
You don't have to do that. dbfs is referred to as digital gain (trim), but it doesn't work the same way as analog gain. Analog gain adjusts signal strength, and trim adjusts bit rate. The highest you can set dbfs is 0. That's full resolution. It can never go higher. When you lower it, all you do is throw information away. The process is sometimes referred to as bit stripping. You should keep dbfs at 0, or as close as possible. If lowering dbfs fixes a problem, its indirect. If you can, fix the real problem.
Probably the first time I've vehemently disagreed with you, but yeah, I always teach my engineers to do it with faders at unity and go up by ear, using meters just to make sure you're not clipping. Our productions are large, so every time we have a new guy that wants everything to be - 18dbfs (that recommendation is in rms btw, so it's already a blurry target in that regard) they inevitably clip the mixbus once the show starts. If one vocal mic signal actually averages - 25 instead of - 18, you won't lose detail or ruin your monitors or stream mix. Unless your system is wildly unsuited for the space, you'll be fine. Also, turn down with subgroups.
I'm with you. Also audio gear and musicians gear used needs to be taken into account (output volume, tone/tuning, clarity, etc). Gaining everything to -18db always ends up too loud on our system and the mix just sounds like a wall of frequencies/sound that the guys have trouble reigning it in later. I also like faders to unity cause during the set it's visually clear where things are at and reduces volume creep (ie. compensating for multiple changes and losing track).
Wonderful video as usual Andrew. But I have a question, I find myself always picking up soo much ambient noise and static with my "Headset microphones" as I work in Live production ( Studios, analysts, casters etc.. Not musicians ). I still haven't done multiple shows because I don't have the equipment, only the mixer. So I have to always adapt to whatever microphones we can get our hands on. What's a useful thing to do here when you see that your signal needs to be HELLA boosted with gain just for it to sound crispy without getting evvvvverything around. And the noise ofcourse.
This is a well timed video for me. I've been doing live sound for over 10 yrs, and this year invested in a number of Meyer Sound speakers. I always thought I was gain staging properly, and never even pushed my older analog speakers into limit, let alone clipping. To my surprise and embarrassment, I found my Meyer speakers and subs starting to clip, when in my mind they were only getting half the signal possible. Of course this wasn't the case. Meyer input sensitivity maxes out +2.2 dbu (-16), which of course means I was sending it too much signal. I was extremely confused by this. I've spent years watching others and also myself, driving Midas consoles up as high as -6 and never seeing a limit light or clipping happening with my speakers. I've come to discover that most speakers input sensitivity are set at 0 dbu (-18) and can't for the life of me understand why consoles are capable of pushing out +20dbu when this is the case. Presonus Studio live consoles output +26! What's the point of this or even having 18db of headroom on the master if most amps and powered speakers will already be well into clipping by that point?
I'm glad it was well timed. Thanks for the comment, it's made me think about some of the meyer systems that I work on and that I should take a look. I've also been driving a midas quite hot into a processor but the processor has like 30db of headroom. I always found that a bit excessive but this makes sense. I think I've got a bit of research to do!
@@OffshoreAudioIve been trying to figure this out myself, and cant find any answers. One thing in my case is that I dont have a processor. I go straight out of the board into the speakers. I imagine having will help me monitor my levels better. I understand the idea of having that much headroom on channels, but what is the point of that much head room on the master, if speakers max out at +4?
The reason why is the "most" that you qualified your statement with. Far better to have that level available and not need it than to need it and not have it available.
@@brendonwood7595 Of course it makes sense to have that much headroom on the master, but if the vast majority of amps and speakers max out at +4, what's the point in having it available? It makes more sense to me to have +4 represented at the clipping point. At least then you have a better metering idea of how much headroom you actually have.
"If someone questions your gain settings" just slap them. Lol . If I were working front of house at any respectable event, the proper use of electronic devices and meters would be employed over my "Ear O' Meters". With those being applied secondary. Yes, Hi-Fidelity is found in the numbers. Just don't forget its art meets science. And why music is so very Cool.
The preamp gain control Is the only gain control and important that it is set right The rest of the faders And amplifier input are all attenuators if the input gain is not set right the function of the EQ will be affected I'm only talking about analog mixes mixes are actually suming amplifier so when two inputs or more are the same pitch and in phase they will sum and the level will increase so I always go for below 0db -3/-7db depending on the sourc this applies to a band with lots of sources a solo artist guitar vocals 0db Is fine i've often thought when you understand a mixer is not a mixer but suming amplifier gain staging Will become easier and sudden increases in level explained
Er, no. The rest of the faders can add up to 10dB of gain as well as attenuating. the signal. The same goes for EQ, dynamics, FX - they can all add positive or negative gain to the signal.
@ yeah I'm wrong I've just been looking at schematics And the big mixes do you have a gain after the fader and before the suming amp but the fader is wired as an input accumulator and the amplifier has a fixed gain The input amp gain control is the only control that actually adjusts the gain of the amplifier smaller mixes don't have the extra amp 😊 and the video Is right on I have seen guys mixing on the gain Controls very difficult when you've got the fader around zero dB you've got that subtle Control you need to make a mix
To be honest, you both lack a complete understanding. Hypon is "more right", I guess. Anyway, if you want to see where the both of you are going wrong, explain what the difference is between gain and volume. You need to know that before we can move on.
100% faders to 0 and gain up (or gain to whatever sweetspot you believe in and trim down, but fader still at 0). Same with monitor mixes. If you set their vocal lets say at 0 on the send and gain it up til they're happy, you aren't going to have to push their master to +12. Same with FOH mixes, you get higher resolution with your faders at 0 for smaller movements. It sounds to me like people just have terrible gain structure and we're making excuses for them.
Line level is correct. The "mic level" mode is only for compatibility with some consumer-grade equipment (e.g. karaoke machines, outdoor battery-powered speakers) which have limited gain adjusment capability and thus cannot accept line-level signal from its mic port without clipping.
Am I the only one that usually sets gain to where they peak right before yellow or barely touching yellow? For example, on a Digico I gain at around -12. Seems to work well for me. I don’t like running sources past green, maybe transients hitting yellow but not past that.
Why do my Sennheiser EW-D packs have a gain adjustment within themselves? Should I be boosting the gain in them at all, or leave them at zero and increase the gain on my X32 only? In other words, is there a case where I should be boosting the gain on my individual mics? Thank you for your content and for any light you can shed on this.
You mentioned that we should set the PA speakers to max volume while controlling via a matrix.. will there be any risk of blowing the speakers, or somebody's ear drums if the mix engineer makes a mistake?
I find gain adjustments aren't perfectly linear across all frequencies. But I agree with the theory. I find the best sound comes from having 70-80% "volume".
Gain is not volume. Its completely different. Overall, this video was very good, but a few of us noticed that some of what he said wasn't entirely correct. I'm sure he will post an update. If not, its something you want to look into if you work with this type of equipment. Having a complete understanding of gain and volume will make your life a lot easer.
Overall, I thought it was a good video, but I think there may have been some mistakes. The one thing that stood out was I don't recall you mentioning volume. Most people only have at best a partial understanding of what the difference is between gain and volume. You used the term fader gain a couple of times. Faders are typically volume controls, not gain. And you went on to say you can set fader gain wherever you want and it won't effect the signal. That would be true if you're dealing with a volume control. A volume control can't harm, damage, alter, etc.... the signal. It attenuates, and nothing morel. And that's why you hear the term gain staging and not volume staging. So, the only way your statement can be true, is if the faders are really volume controls, because they can't alter the signal. One other thing I noticed was you never mentioned the term trim. I think that's important because adjusting gain typically refers to an analog adjustment. Trim is considered to be a digital gain adjustment, and there's a difference between the two. When you adjust gain on an analog signal, signal strength is varied. Trim is adjusted by altering bit rate. So, the more you lower trim (digital gain), the signals bit rate comes down the lower you go. Because of this process, sometimes called bit stripping, gain staging typically involves making big adjustments while the signal is analog. Once the signal is converted to digital, small adjustments are made with trim.
Thanks for the video. A lot of guys around here suggest keeping the speaker volume at unity, but you had suggested to put your speakers to max volume, is that correct?
Good question. I think I wasn't clear about that. I would agree with Unity. On some speakers unity is max. The main takeaway I wanted people to get was don't turn down the speakers, reduce how much you're sending to them to give yourself headroom. Hope that clears it up!
Would it be possible to attach several very small pieces of tape alongside your gain knob or fader, to represent landmark levels, such as -18db and 0db? I suppose this would require some assistance to set up, but once it's done, it might give you what you need. Cheers and best of luck in your mixing.
Now that is a great idea I use a few analogue desks and certainly a little mark would really help thank you for the suggestion as I said I really enjoy your shows and have learned so much thank you
@@josephdeery4931 Glad I could help. Just to let you know, I'm not the guy who made this video, I just saw your comment and the tape idea occurred to me. I really hope it works out for you.
Do it by ears ! -18db is not a proper way to think about it ! Put your faders at 0db and turn up the gain until it feels good to you (eventually it will land around that gain) If you think about numbers and meters too much it will ruin you mixes, its all about earing not seeing ;)
Excellent tutorial here and very very well explained , its only been a year now I have moved completely over to Digital , reluctant at first to be honest, it is a big step , analogue for the last 30years Dynacord Power mate , moved by selling on my powermax 5 PA and I bought the New RCF's 935A's and for my digital desk ( Presonus 16:4:2 ) ok its old school but it really was what I think the best introduction to digital sound , right now looking at the desk I have my master fader just under just under the 0 for example to picture the top end of the fader touching the zero line , all other channel faders at zero , this would be my starting point , the gains mainly at 10/11 0 clock , do this seem ok to you , as for my RCF's I hear you say on your tutorial to crank them up full volume, this has kinda put me thinking am I under powering my RCF's where I have them set Linear at 2 on the clock , never needed to go to 3 , If I crank my speakers up full volume I wonder what will this firstly do the speakers themselves and with regards to my settings on my digital desk Presonus 16:4:2 , my thinking would be that I will be dropping all the channel faders way below zero , if im to leave my master fader close to zero , I have been told multiple times never to turn my speakers up full , am I driving the speaker amps too hot then or if you would oblige me by reading into all i said above in that you being the expert here, firstly tell me is my settings ok and where im going wrong and what you suggest I do to get the absolute best out of both the desk and the RcF's , I did contemplate one night to bring the Rcf's to max ,well pretty close to full but quickly changed my mind and left them at 2 clock setting , I dont know but what I have learned in all the years in my music career is that every day is a school day , you have gained another subcriber for sure here and I will definitely be taking time out to view many of your other videos you put up , thank you in advance for any constructive information you can advise me on ,👍
I try to have the master gain knob a little higher at 1 - 2 O'clock. I think, that allows one to get that "headroom" everyone likes to talk about if your amps have good dynamic power. Generally, not turning everything up to 11 is the best for long term use of your eqpt regardless what Spinal Tap may say. LoL
The only addition I would add is to check the level coming into the mixer at the device itself. Having a healthy signal before hitting the mixer is important for gain staging. If you have a wireless mic, let's say a G-50, and the output setting is switched on "mic level", the signal will be different than the "line level" for example, and the gain amount at the board will differ as well. The same logic applies to synths. Old analog synths will have a sweet spot on the output that maximizes signal and minimizes the noise, if you adjust it just right. Hitting the board with a cleaner signal pays off as well, unless of course you are going for that shitty garage band sound. "Art is art", right?
Every once in a while I run into a speaker (person) that simply doesn't have enough natural volume. If I then gain the microphone to a level such that the channel runs at -18dB I run into feedback issues. How would you tackle this? Another thing is that when all instruments are gained to -18dB, I see that some instruments need to be at a fader level -40dB for example. Would it then not be better to change those instruments to a lower gain level such that all channels are around fader level 0 so you have the highest resolution for all instruments?
you should put your fader at 0db before turning up the gain. That way you have more control on your faders because of the logarithmic scale. Having a fader at -40 is not the way to go you will have a harder time mixing. The same thing apply to your other issue and you should also use an 31 band EQ on your PA to eliminate the problematic frequencies
If the speaker doesn't have enough volume, it's usually a lack of instruction for the speaker on how to position the microphone properly. People that have soft voices can still be picked up pretty good if the microphone is close enough to their mouth. Of course, the gain levels will differ between someone who shouts into a microphone at close range versus someone who more or less mumbles at the same distance. An approach for loud instruments is to assign them to a subgroup (that sends to main) and have the subgroup fader at a lower level, such that you can mix the instruments at a higher resolution, while still keeping overall volume at an acceptable level. You could roughly set the subgroup to -20dB and raise the instrument fader to -20dB to have more control over the mix of the particular loud instruments. I'm not sure why some commenters think setting faders at 0dB before setting gain is a good idea. If you only focus on the faders (that usually end up in the main mix), you'll miss a proper signal level for, as the video also mentions, monitoring, recording outputs, etc. It's easier to attenuate a signal later on in the chain (e.g. assigning to subgroup and set the subgroup fader to a lower output level before going to the main mix) than to amplify an already weak signal. If your faders are set to 0dB (for example on the Midas M32R in the video), that means you'll have at most 10dB of amplification left. When you've set gain properly, and end up at -30dB on the fader, you'll have 40dB of headroom to play with!
@MrNGm, thank you for the comments, I do agree with the microphone placement thing, but I am struggling with some people with a lavalier that is placed at the exact same location as with others but they are still too soft. Effectively that causes feedback as I need to gain way more. So in order to resolve that issue I then have to apply a parametric EQ on the mic input?
@@MrBoogiee If you have preparation time, have the person using the lavalier come to you beforehand and place the lavalier at an appropriate spot (maybe a bit higher for soft speakers, and a bit lower for loud speakers). For wireless lavaliers there may be a configurable pre-amp on the transmitter. Configure the pre-amp on the transmitter they'll be using while keeping an eye on the wireless receiver for the audio levels. If that time isn't there, or the same lavalier is regularly switched, you'll need to adapt (a stage hand with proper instructions might help as well, give them a bit of guidelines on lavalier placement with regards to the loudness of someone's voice). That could mean higher gain on the mixing desk, but also another look at EQ's for the lavalier, monitors and house. The exact frequencies that need attention differ per setup, but a guideline I've been using is dipping 630Hz, 1kHz, 6.3kHz some -3 to -6dB on house (simple 31-band EQ), and a low-shelf and high-shelf on monitors as well as dips on 1kHz and 6.3kHz with a parametric EQ (width could be some 150Hz both sides, dip to -3dB or -6dB). For vocals, you can usually apply low- and high-shelf as well, and fiddle a bit with the frequencies in between if the voice is too bass-heavy, or doesn't sound crisp. And it doesn't hurt to apply a bit of compression to vocals for sudden loudness spikes, if you have that available. Another thing to consider is overall stage sound if you're using wedges on stage. If you'll need more gain on the lavalier, decrease the send to the monitor or the overall monitor volume. If the lavalier is the only source of sound on stage, mute all other channels, to prevent other microphones to pick up the monitor sound of the lavalier. (I think that's a good practice, as it eliminates other sound sources from interfering with your expected stage sound). Hope this helps!
If it works for you then by all means go with it…… as for me all my meters must hit a certain level as an average and peak at least a few dBs above that for all my channels. I get a clean signal and I get to s of head room from how I approach it.
People please remember that clipping damages your speakers. I see professional engineers constantly hitting the reds on everything and it really pisses me off. Also I have to agree that faders to zero isn't the best option, and in my personal experience, having worked in places where musicians on stage can hear the PA, it's better to set monitor levels with the PA out muted, cause that way they end up wanting their monitoring levels much quieter!
Clipping your signal is not killing speakers. Only clipping amps kill speakers. Think of the scenario when driving your guitar amp input into distortion. That distortion isn’t a square wave the speaker is seeing.
@@cweednz the distortion you'd get on a guitar is usually completely different to clipping. anything like saturation is not going to damage speakers. only flat clipped waves do that. yes a clipping amp is going to kill speakers, but sending an already clipped signal to an amp that's not clipping isn't going to change anything! (remember that digital consoles clip on 0dBFS, just like an audio file)
I am sorry but this video is so full of misinformation about audio engineering, I know we are in the same field but it really does feel like we have incredibly different lived experiences. This video has multiple flaws: 1. GAIN happens BEFORE the analog to digital conversion, this is why it is so incredibly important to set right. TRIM happens after the conversion and is no different than turning up or down the fader. They really do sound different when turned up, I implore everyone to give that a go sometime and hear the difference for yourself. Of course you definitely do not want to clip in your Analog to Digital conversion stage. 2. In the section about gain staging problems you mentioned precisely WHY I gain on 0dB faders, I do not want to have to work with little control over my fader down in the logarithmic hell of -10 to -∞ for my main mix. That absolutely is starting from the start with the end in mind, the end in mind is 0dB on my faders. If a channel is too loud or too quiet coming in I will go to the sound source and either turn it up or down or ask the person in control of the sound source to change the volume. I already had a sense that you didn't run your video ideas by peers when you made a video about VCA's and making them control the FX returns rather than FX sends, controlling the FX send will let you keep the tail end of a reverb or delay when you cut the volume or let you drive a compressor more or less. In this video you do not tell us *why* your fellow professional peers gain to 0dB on the faderfader, you also clearly did not fact check your claim that the gain stage is different than the trim & fader stages. Its really upsetting to me that you would upload these videos because I know you do this out of passion for the craft and you want to teach others how this field works and I have learned some things from your channel! I will not be unsubscribing, I want to see you grow Andrew. With kind but critical regards, Goblin 🌺
It’s better to have your levels full and green and using a compressor to keep it there than to clip your master bus when a vocal or a snare or a kick or a bass gets out of control
This is so not the way to setup gain in a live situation In studio your way of doing it is good but in live you should put all you faders a 0db and then turn up the gain to adjust the balance You should almost mix with gain during sound Check and solo are almost never needed in live sound ;)
I believe what you mentioned around minute 6:00 is inaccurate. The gain control actually comes before the analog-to-digital conversion, which is why it still matters on a digital console. We adjust the gain to optimize the signal for the converters, helping them perform as well as possible. While I agree that increasing gain doesn’t “open up the sound” (since 99% of digital mixer preamps are very transparent and converters dynamic range is usually adequate even without a very loud signal), gain control is still a digital interface for an analog process.
Setting the gain 6 dB higher and then reducing the fader by 6 dB isn’t the same as doing the opposite, even without factoring in nonlinear processes like compressors or gates. This difference occurs because one adjustment happens before the ADC (analog-to-digital conversion) and the other after. It may not create a noticeable difference in sound, but it’s not the same process.
The same concept applies to output. For instance, cranking your power amps while trimming the signal significantly from the matrix output isn’t equivalent to the reverse, though in this case, your method is more practical.
This is also another reason (besides the one you already mention in the video) why balancing levels solely with the gain control is generally not an ideal practice.
Totally agree, this is probably the most important reason to set gain correctly - faithful A-D conversion
This is correct. The preamp gain is analog. What he described would be more akin to digital Trim. Trim is just raising or lowering the digital signal.
To understand the difference between preamp gain and say fader level we can pretend for a moment that our audio system runs on water. If our audio systems were water based the preamp gain is more like a pump and the fader level is more like a valve. One can increase the amount of water flowing through the system and the other can only decrease it. Of course, this is only an example and not really how it works weather analog or digital.
Came here to say this.
@@SamueleForte depends on the environment and what you're actually tweaking. some consoles have an automatic pregain on the analog stage, which you don't get to tweak, and then you have a digital trim control. i don't understand how this could be better than what you mentioned tho.
Just to add, when working with A&H digital mixers, setting input gain to 0.db on the meters equates to -18dbfs in the digital realm as opposed to -18 on the Midas mixers. All the same outcome, just a different approach from the various manufacturers.
I realized that mid broadcast a few weeks back when none of my "-6dB" sources were hitting yellow, lol. No wonder I was fighting the desk so hard up til then...
yeah does anybody know why A&H uses analog metering on digital mixers?
@@mongarcia9151 - Not sure, maybe it is to make those moving across from analogue more at home and familiar?
@@leeroysilk I guess that's understandable. They probably just applied it to all their products to lessen confusion.
Yep, I was about to comment about out that
I do it how you describe everything sir. Can’t argue with the method at all . i like how you take time to explain everything.
You are right on point. Another option to pull things up or down for an improperly sized speaker system is to use a DCA. Just did it the other day, needed to be outputting roughly -30 because the venue speakers were that overpowered. Threw everything on a DCA and pulled that back. Perfect. I can properly gain stage and use all the faders, including the master, in the sweet spot.
One thing you missed though is that gain does effect the sound. On a digital console you are adjusting the preamp into the AD converter. You aren't getting the most out of that conversion if your gain is too low. A little bit isn't gonna be that bad, but you are losing detail.
DCA is even easier to use then Matrix's and nobody talks about them. Analog mixers only had some version of DCA.
I agree with the last part; however, reducing the signal by 30 dB before the DAC has a similar problem, just in reverse. You’re essentially removing 30 dB of dynamic range from the DAC instead of the ADC.
@SamueleForte Absolutely which is why it's important to properly size and level the speaker system itself so that you can come out of the board at a good full level. At my gig I used as an example turning the amps down on the PA would have been a way better solution. But sometimes you can't do that (the venue didn't want the amps touched) and at that point it becomes a question of where to take the hit. In general I lean towards taking the hit on the output. Maximizing what I have to work with throughout and taking one hit on the way out. But there is a point where you are losing so much fidelity on the DA side that you end up better off giving up a little bit on the AD side to leave a bit more to be had on DA.
Yeah... Insufficient gain means insufficient voltage coming into the ADC, resulting in waste of sampling bit depth and downgrading of sound quality.
If the venue speakers are overpowered by 30 dB, just turn the amps down.
With all the information on the internet concerning gain, I'm surprised this still needs to be explained to people. Such a fundamental concept.
That being said....great video.
I learned this concept about gain structure maybe about two years ago. Some of my instructors, self taught at that, didn’t set up gain this way. I’d always been taught to place it at zero and then begin adding gain. 🤷♂️
And I’ve met other engineers who set gains so randomly and somehow manage to make it sound presentable. 😅
Great video. Only thing i dissagree with is when you said there is no difference between gain kmob gain or fader gain. There is only one gain knob. The fader is a volume or level control. Sure they both can turn a signal up or down. The gain knob adds the voltage a mic needs to be at a proper signal to noise ratio. Imagine the gain knob like its a flow valve for a plumbing system. If a person has a fader way up and the gain too far down the mic wont sound its best because its kinda choked out or restricted. So gain does open up the sound of a mic for fidelity. You did hit the nail on the head about the system volume being up too loud. I think thats where many screw up. Always finish up with metering from the mixer then slowly turn up your amps to an appropriate level. So in a way the mixer itself is like a valve sending flow to the amp.
I brought up the same issue. A gain control can alter, or harm the signal. A volume control can't. If the faders control volume, which they almost always do, then he's right. You can put the volume anywhere you want and it won't harm the signal. You can't do the same with gain control.
I've been mixing live shows for 25 years and do everything exactly as you have described. I would agree with video 100% and preach that gain-staging is the most important part of mixing.
You're in correct in stating that gain will not open up the sound. Always remember, to get the full resolution from any digital desk, i.e., 48k, your gain stage must be at least -16dbfs RMS. This comes directly from Robert schovill.
Your signal has likely been lost in the noise floor long before you run out of resolution so this isn't really a problem for most sources.
-20dbfs RMS. Avid master class of Robert Scoville
20 bumfuckspoons
Whereas a guitar amp would need to be turned up loud enough to get proper tone, yeah?
Gain can't effect your bit rate. Its an analog adjustment that's made by varying the signal strength. Digital gain, or trim, is adjusted by altering the bit rate. As you lower your trim, resolution goes down the more you lower it. That's why its recommended to set your analog gain first, and can be a large adjustment. Trim is meant to be used for small adjustments. What your post is referring to is adjustments made while the signal is digital. For full resolution, all digital gain and volume controls have to be set to max. Bringing any of them down will lower resolution. In reality, as long as you are working with good quality digital, 16/44 and up, small adjustments will not be audible.
You spot on with this. I couldn't have said it better. I've seen too many operaters make the same mistaks and over gain. It sound distorted and has no dynamics. Live mixing is totally different to recording. Always make sure you have a good sound check. My hint is get the bass player to slap the bass, that one always causes popping when you don't want it.
I actually found live mix to be really close to studio recording, just the focus is more on problem solving and less on finding the perfect sound.
But I started as a live mix engineer and now mixing in studio a lot of the knowledge translated directly, specially the monitor mix knowledge
I would like to add something about this. Because a digital desk uses A/D conversion, the digital signal is in bits. So low signal results in less bit, so a lower resolution. This is not only for the direct signal of a mic, like the singers voice, but also for crosstalk of other acoustic sounds the singers mic is capturing.
So you need to get the best of both worlds. Good gain for good signal resolution, but also keep in mind to have a good fader resolution.
I'm not a trained sound guy, but know a little from experience and self reasoning. In theory, where the gain is applied does not matter. But this is only true if all your sound equipment is noise free. If you have a piece such as an amp, electronic drums kit, bad microphone that hisses when it's gain is turned up, then that is a time to consider where the gain is applied. We have an electronic drum kit that hisses when its own volume is turned up, so gain staging here is important to eliminate that hiss, turn the volume knob down on the kit and turn the gain up on your much better sound board.
I do it how you describe. Can’t argue with the method. If you want pristine sound, gotta keep it in the best range for resolution.
On the topic of right gain staging before effects, most of my professors have stayed unanimous with the following logic: you can't get the best result out of your fancy plugins, if you cant gain stage right. The idea behind it was that quality plugins tend to be emulations of physical effect units, and since the old physical effects tended to expect the signal coming in at about 0 VU, or as we now call it -18 dBFS, that makes it so the plugins too, are expecting the signal at about that level, and it has to do not just with staying in the limits of your thresholds or whatever, but also about the intended coloration of the sound, which was embedded in the design of the original effect unit.
Great video dude! Im a 2nd year Allround Event- and Stage Technician student and this helps a ton
I'm new to mixing, using a small simple digital mixer ( XR18 ). After studying things I made my first live mix pretty much the way you described. I figured out how important setting my gain was. While not necessarily shooting for -18, I was watching the meter on every channel and setting gain to between -20 and -15. That seemed to give me the headroom yet full sound I needed without maxing the faders on channels or main. Thanks for the video, I have so much to learn. I view this as the basics, everything seems to build on this.
@DManBreaux I’ve found the same thing. I watched a lot of videos that were adamant to reach -18 dB . I don’t contest anymore.
Interestingly you reached by practice the same end result, -18 is pretty much in the middle of your target range haha, pretty cool.
At our venue, there is a London Soundweb Blu-50 processor, setup by the installers years ago. I have just now discovered what it actually does, the installers put a global input gain of 18 db before it went to the crossover, eq, delay, and output gain sections they setup. I knew I was fighting something trying to get the board gain up so I could use the multiband compressor. All the wireless mics had their sensitivity turned way down to accommodate this. For the past 3 months I've been inching that gain down to 6 db now so as not to have a drastic noticeable change in the venue that I couldn't overcome with on-the-fly adjustments.
Great video. When I worked at my old theatre house I found that putting all my faders at 0 and gaining them to almost feedback level and then bringing the faders down to -5 gave me the best gain to work with. This was also after years of working in the same house and just doing musicals and plays with them. Very sensitive mics and lots of dynamic range, and this was the most efficient gain staging for it because you could also run all the mics at level and essentially have everyone be the same level. This came in handy when I needed to find parts in a harmony. I only ever gained this way in that house though and found that knowing proper gain staging techniques really matter when working in a house you’re not as comfortable in.
Great tutorial and hits home with me moving to a digital mixer, as you say totally different gain structure. I bought the Yamaha DM3 which is an amazing little board but the gain structure has taken some getting used to.
I am one of these guys that I use the unity gain as a starting point on faders and turning on the gain knob till reaching the -18 to -12 dBfs, in order to have the best resolution that I can. If the speaker system is overpowered then I am turning down the system, as if you have an overpowered system and you leave it like this then you overpower all the noises from the electronic circuits and all the interferences and also in case of any unpredictable feedback the situation is going very bad. In case of a need of more power to any output like the monitors outputs, there is a solution that the mixing station has (if you have a digital mixer that is supported from the mixing station) that is called Re-Gain . Is an amazing solution that you can adjust the gain from your channel without messing up with all the other sends that are related to this channel, as it lowers all the sends accordingly with the gain increasments.
What’s generally worked for me over the years is to align the clip points of the mix master, mix bus EQ (flat) and amplifier inputs. Reduce amplifier sensitivity until it clips when the EQ does, which should clip when the bus driving it does - this gets you darn close to good fader resolution.
I believe it depends on the sound source. For example a drum. The fundamental note is the strongest but there is more information that follows. So if you set the gain to the fundamental notes volume then the rest of the information is too low. Which then means you will have to boost a lot in the eqs higher register to pull out any stick definition. I believe using an RTA showing the overall picture is a good approach. That way the entire signal is strong and any frequencies that are offensive can easily be turned down with eq. Drums are just one example of this.
I agree with everything you said, except that the gain gain is the same as the fader gain. Gain gain is always (as far as I know) the gain of the analog preamp _before_ the AD converter: it’s not, by definition, a linear kind of gain, while fader gain is linear, meaning it doesn’t introduce any kind of harmonic content into the signal.
That said, I don’t think that on any digital mixer this is in any way relevant: what makes the preamp introduce harmonics or change the sound is not the amount of gain you introduce, but the level the signal comes in at. If I have a low signal and I need lots of gain to get it to -18dBFS it will sound exactly the same (especially in the context of a live mix) as if the same signal was much louder and I needed little to no gain to get it to my target
This is all to advocate that the gain should be set with the meters and with a specific target in mind, and not in any other way, as you will load the preamps differently from channel to channel and from night to night, introducing the potential to make them sound slightly different every time (of course these preamps are made to be as linear as possible, they’re not at all like the preamp on a studio console that introduce lots of coloration, so I’m sure that everything I said in real life is much less exaggerated than I made it out to be)
I was going to say something very similar as I'm currently learning the specifics of an older (early 2000's) Tascam DM4800 digital mixer and the manual explicitly delineates gain applied to the analog input section prior to A/D conversion from the digital "trim" that happens just after the conversion.
In essence, I can drive the analog preamp into saturation with the gain knob (without clipping the A/D converters) and still lower the digital gain back to -16dbfs RMS before the signal hits my channel, using digital trim.
However, I have no experience with modern digital mixers and how their design might differ, but I have to assume they follow this same logic unless it's uncommon to include a digital trim function.
I think of it as analogous to a digital interface with my DAW, where I can take I'm a hot signal but "clip gain" the recording down before the signal hits, say an analog-modeled plugin for example.
@ Personally, I’ve never worked with a modern mixer with a digital trim. I know they exist, but I think they might be included only on higher end models (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). But in my opinion it’s not worth chasing the preamp saturation on these mixers anyway, as the preamps are cheap-ish and I just risk clipping the converter (which nobody wants). If it’s present then the digital trim serves only the purpose of getting the fader to sit around the 0 mark, not correcting any overgaining of the signal in input. Of course in the studio, with higher end or even boutique preamps, it’s a whole different story.
Hey thanks for the comment. You're right I could have been a little clearer when talking about the preamp gain being before the converter so they're not exactly the same. As I'm sure you gathered though, the main point was to advocate for proper gain staging and show people I do it, and justify why I do it that way. If I'd written all of the above then a beginner would simply give up, but I do think it's important and I should've mentioned preamp gain vs digital gain. So I hope you'll forgive my technical oversight :)
@@OffshoreAudio There can be some different behaviour with digital mixers regarding gain and trim functions, especially when using stage boxes. For example, if you have a single DL32 and connect two M32 mixers, or daisy chain two DL32's to a single network cable to a M32 and then daisy chain a second M32. In the Midas ecosystem (and I believe this applies to other brands as well), only one mixer can control the gain of the preamp in the stage boxes, which is selectable in the settings (headamp control). The other mixers will switch to digital trim, using the gain knob to control it. Sounds logic when you think about it, but can be a real hussle in the field when running such setups, and can get really complex real fast, not resulting in the gain staging you prefer.
You can simulate this behaviour using M32 Edit. Switch inputs in the routing screen (local to AES50A and back) and watch what happens to the channel input section. It will change between gain and trim, while also changing the scale of the control. With actual gear, when set to AES50, the trim is displayed. As soon as you connect a stage box to the mixer, the mixer will enable headamp control and change the control to gain. Immediatly after disconnect, the mixer will change back to trim.
I've had a similar experience with an M32R connecting to a stage box (Midas DL16), and daisy chained through the DL16's AES50B port to a Behringer SD8 on the AES50A port. All kinds of controls were lost on the SD8, such as gain (it went into trim mode) and 48V switchability. Really frustrating.
My personal steps are (and the way I was taught):
1) Mute the channel
2) Set the Gain to between -18 and -15 dB
3) Unmute the channel and slowly bring the fader up
4) Set the Noise Gate
5) Set the Compressor or Freq Filter
6) EQ
I do disagree with what you said that the Gain doesn't change the sound. It may not change it in a way that a person with a booming voice will suddenly sound like Mickey Mouse, but it DOES change the sound enough that you WILL have to re-EQ. If you need to re-EQ, then that means the sound changed.
isnt it smarted to set the compressor after the eq? eq cuts and boosts will affect general volume, compressing after eq gives you more control, and increase the compressor performance as it will not have to treat frequecies that you will be cut anyways
There isn’t no right or wrong way, I have used both ways depending on the source. Sometimes I want to level the dynamic before I eq.
@@MrProveyron As a general rule I prefer not to boost anything with the EQ, I rather use the EQ to cut almost exclusively, save a few exceptions, particularly with instruments.
The compressor will diminish all frequencies, unless used as a freq filter.
When used as a regular compressor, I use it mostly to prevent saturation and distortion. That way I can use the EQ only on those problematic frequencies.
The only case on which I may use the compressor after the EQ would be when using it as a freq filter, to remove the "SS" for example.
That's at least the way I use and view things, not saying my way is the only correct one 😅
"I do disagree with what you said that the Gain doesn't change the sound."
That's not something to debate. You have it right. Gain does change how something sounds. That's why its so important to gain stage properly. A volume control can't alter the signal, only gain can. There's a reason why you never hear the term volume staging. As far as the signal itself goes, it doesn't matter where a volume control is set. In the video, he should have said volume faders, not gain faders. He seems like he really knows what he's doing. I'm sure he'll update the post.
I disagree with your "all gain is the same comment". preamps have a character when driven hard. When I am on a M32, I tend to gain the bass channel up until the clip indicator is flickering, then compress the signal and /or run the fader well down below the zero mark. The sound of the bass opens up at this level of gain, It sounds better. its in a sweet spot. It is a technique I learned on an H3K, the midas preamps change when you push them. it is really wonderful.
Another thing to consider is what type of person will using the mic, if is a rock star that scream a lot or a man doing a lecture on a university class. And what type of voice is, if it a soft-spoken person (call angel voice) or a person with a loud voice.
So there is not a "one for all" setting.
-18db is a good starting point for digital mixer. however some model like Allen & Heath Qu and SQ series, uses Analog meters in digital boards, so we still aim for 0 to -10db (depending on the dynamic range of instrument). Good to check with the manuals what meters is being used. *i presume this design is for easier transition for those from analog mixer and also safer to avoid clipping.
My first 20 minutes mixing on an SQ had me scratching my head, as reaching 0 dB was still throwing green, lol.
One part of gain staging I never hear people talk enough about is the gain nob on the wireless mic receiver or instrument and/or instrument Amp? Keyboard player has a volume nob? Bass Amp has a master volume nob? Guitarist has a volume nob on his guitar? At what point and how to set THOSE levels???
keyboard all the way up, cause they always turn it up mid-performance. Bass and guitar amp you should let the musicians be confortable with their volume, if it’s a small venue it’s better to keep it low and send it on monitors, if it’s a bigger stage as loud as they want/need
they should always be confortable in monitors, otherwise they’ll keep turning it up ruining your gainstaging
A guitar volume knob is really part of the player's tonal pallette. Many players modulate it to achieve specific tones. Others just leave it wide open when playing. As long as you get a line check with it wide open, you'll be good. I don't chase guitar knobs with my preamp gain - if needed I use the fader.
in my digital guitar pedalboard the volume knob is basically a trim (like an audio inferface monitor knob), so basically if you set proper gainstaging while creating patches you can leave it at max.
So in my experience, the answer really varies. Ideally the musicians would set their volume and then if they needed more of themselves later in the show they would ask the engineer for more monitor signal and not turn up on their own as that would affect not only the gain stage, but any FX or Dynamics processing down the line since it bascially is the same as the vocal example listed in the video.
While some guitarists and bassists have a specific sound they are going for based on their amp, depending on the venue and set up, it is ludicrous to expect the majority of the sound to come out of their amp, therefore, same concept as what someone mentioned earlier and let the system do the work and the amps for the musicians to feel good on stage. A bass amp turned up all the way will be blasting to try and keep up with a pair of subs at the front of the stage or whatever. It would produce a more even sound and distribute lows better across the audience then having them turn up on stage so much that you are just introducing mud from the FOH system. Let alone timing issues with delay if you want to really start to get into the weeds about it.
TL;DR Let the musicians be at a comfy level and ask them to just communicate with the engineer if they need more in the monitors and ask them not to turn up if avoidable and to communicate if they need to do so.
Very helpful as both an overview and a reminder. However since so much of this video is oriented to the sound tech using a digital mixer (other than a brief mention at the beginning about the history of gain staging), it might be valuable to expand the gain plan to encompass those who still use analog. I expect that there are many small venues, bands, and tech teams who, like me, still use analog.
Oh and another thought/question for the crowd: should powered speakers always be turned up all the way? It seems like a good way to be sure that you aren’t limiting yourself but also seems to be a good way to lose control quickly…. JAT (just a thought)
@@capriccioespagnole778 I use a SM58 with 25db of gain and turn up the PA until it feels good to me and with time i have my references so i know if the Pa is loud enough
@@capriccioespagnole778 Yeah I don't agree with the full volume on the speakers either, you get a bunch of unnecessary white noise by doing that, it is always better to set the speakers to the top desired volume using a controlled source, for example a phone, plug it into the mixer, play music, set the master fader to 0 and adjust speaker volume to get the MAX amount of volume you might need, then add a bit more just in case and call it a day, you get less noise and even less feedback, since the speakers will contribute less noise to the stage sound
What you are saying is very true. -18dbfs is the " digital equivelent " in most mixers for a 0db reference level. This is not a hard fast rule, but as long as you are at or slightly above -18dbfs, you are in the " textbook " range for setting level. When you " cook " the headamps, you are setting yourself up for trouble. Fader resolution is a thing, and even digital mixers use a logarithmic curve on all the trims. This can lead to a hair trigger with the sends for how much signal is sent. This is really bad for monitors. After years of testing the theory, gain is gain is gain. Feedback will occur at the same relative SPL regardless of where the trims are set, but since the resolution is so bad at lower trim settings, a small change can be enough to be stable/not stable with the touch of the knob. Gain staging is real, and perhaps less pertinent than it used to be, where you had to use " every bit " avaialable, but is still important. Do it right, and the mixer will operate in an expected and repeatable manor.
Becomes interesting when you have a DJ board. I would like to know your thoughts on using an external device like a DDJ-800 board and how you would set the gain on the channel(s) it is running into while still allowing the DJ to turn up the volume when applicable.
I remember being taught the fader at zero the gain up at uni for one particular reason. The lecturer said you'd do that if you're working a venue where the public is more capable of coming up and ruining you're mix. If they start messing with faders then you just set them back to 0 instead of trying to remember where everything was.
But that advice feels outdated with most digital systems (might still be useful for analogue). Cause in venues like that, just lock the desk when you're done!
A&H CQ-20B. Gain Assistant each channel, and then turn them all down 2-3 dB. Keep Auto Gain enabled where necessary.
Gain = signal/noise ratio.
You either amplify a good signal or a noise signal.
Bring that signal (gain to 0dB just below clipping) up.
I agree with you 90% of the video. But the part that gain doesn’t do anything to the signal, and is just like a input fader I really disagree. I’ve tested my self recording the same audio on diferent input levels and then Normalize them to check the diferences and even in the wave you can see that there is a difference, and yes, sound wise, there is too. Of course if you re talking about a 100$ mixing board it doesnt make a difference but with a bit more expensive ones, you start to hear it for sure. No to say that you should hear it and turn it up until it sounds “good”, but there will be a difference in diferent levels.
Hi everyone, I think what him metioned around minute 6:11 is incorrect. I think the gain knob is adjust the analog preamp on the digital mixer, it's amplify the signal and add more saturations, or colors that can change the sound source! Who can tell me the true? Feel free to discuss. Thanks all
Feel like anyone that says gain doesnt affect the sound of a mic hasnt done livestreams with lapels and/or lecterns. Interested to hear if people still try to get them to -18dbfs (at actual talking distance) or if you can settle on lower in that case.
From my experience the difference between a 22db microflex and a 35db microflex is quite big, especially when it comes to how distance affects level output.
So most times when am at an event I mute all the I/O first and then I set my gain first making sure it's hitting the 18-20dbfs and that's when I set where my Bus fader and Channel sends faders level after... This helps me to get the desirable sound and optimize my speakers 🔊
You don't have to do that. dbfs is referred to as digital gain (trim), but it doesn't work the same way as analog gain. Analog gain adjusts signal strength, and trim adjusts bit rate. The highest you can set dbfs is 0. That's full resolution. It can never go higher. When you lower it, all you do is throw information away. The process is sometimes referred to as bit stripping. You should keep dbfs at 0, or as close as possible. If lowering dbfs fixes a problem, its indirect. If you can, fix the real problem.
Probably the first time I've vehemently disagreed with you, but yeah, I always teach my engineers to do it with faders at unity and go up by ear, using meters just to make sure you're not clipping. Our productions are large, so every time we have a new guy that wants everything to be - 18dbfs (that recommendation is in rms btw, so it's already a blurry target in that regard) they inevitably clip the mixbus once the show starts. If one vocal mic signal actually averages - 25 instead of - 18, you won't lose detail or ruin your monitors or stream mix. Unless your system is wildly unsuited for the space, you'll be fine.
Also, turn down with subgroups.
I'm with you. Also audio gear and musicians gear used needs to be taken into account (output volume, tone/tuning, clarity, etc). Gaining everything to -18db always ends up too loud on our system and the mix just sounds like a wall of frequencies/sound that the guys have trouble reigning it in later. I also like faders to unity cause during the set it's visually clear where things are at and reduces volume creep (ie. compensating for multiple changes and losing track).
Wonderful video as usual Andrew.
But I have a question, I find myself always picking up soo much ambient noise and static with my "Headset microphones" as I work in Live production ( Studios, analysts, casters etc.. Not musicians ).
I still haven't done multiple shows because I don't have the equipment, only the mixer. So I have to always adapt to whatever microphones we can get our hands on.
What's a useful thing to do here when you see that your signal needs to be HELLA boosted with gain just for it to sound crispy without getting evvvvverything around. And the noise ofcourse.
This is a well timed video for me.
I've been doing live sound for over 10 yrs, and this year invested in a number of Meyer Sound speakers.
I always thought I was gain staging properly, and never even pushed my older analog speakers into limit, let alone clipping.
To my surprise and embarrassment, I found my Meyer speakers and subs starting to clip, when in my mind they were only getting half the signal possible.
Of course this wasn't the case. Meyer input sensitivity maxes out +2.2 dbu (-16), which of course means I was sending it too much signal.
I was extremely confused by this. I've spent years watching others and also myself, driving Midas consoles up as high as -6 and never seeing a limit light or clipping happening with my speakers.
I've come to discover that most speakers input sensitivity are set at 0 dbu (-18) and can't for the life of me understand why consoles are capable of pushing out +20dbu when this is the case. Presonus Studio live consoles output +26!
What's the point of this or even having 18db of headroom on the master if most amps and powered speakers will already be well into clipping by that point?
I'm glad it was well timed. Thanks for the comment, it's made me think about some of the meyer systems that I work on and that I should take a look. I've also been driving a midas quite hot into a processor but the processor has like 30db of headroom. I always found that a bit excessive but this makes sense. I think I've got a bit of research to do!
@@OffshoreAudioIve been trying to figure this out myself, and cant find any answers.
One thing in my case is that I dont have a processor. I go straight out of the board into the speakers. I imagine having will help me monitor my levels better.
I understand the idea of having that much headroom on channels, but what is the point of that much head room on the master, if speakers max out at +4?
The reason why is the "most" that you qualified your statement with. Far better to have that level available and not need it than to need it and not have it available.
@@brendonwood7595 Of course it makes sense to have that much headroom on the master, but if the vast majority of amps and speakers max out at +4, what's the point in having it available?
It makes more sense to me to have +4 represented at the clipping point. At least then you have a better metering idea of how much headroom you actually have.
Yep, you are right on, man! Thanks for the video!
"If someone questions your gain settings" just slap them. Lol . If I were working front of house at any respectable event, the proper use of electronic devices and meters would be employed over my "Ear O' Meters". With those being applied secondary. Yes, Hi-Fidelity is found in the numbers. Just don't forget its art meets science. And why music is so very Cool.
I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts on using trim in correlation with gain. I’m using a Wing console for reference.
The preamp gain control Is the only gain control and important that it is set right The rest of the faders And amplifier input are all attenuators if the input gain is not set right the function of the EQ will be affected I'm only talking about analog mixes
mixes are actually suming amplifier so when two inputs or more are the same pitch and in phase they will sum and the level will increase so I always go for below 0db -3/-7db depending on the sourc
this applies to a band with lots of sources a solo artist guitar vocals 0db Is fine
i've often thought when you understand a mixer is not a mixer but suming amplifier gain staging Will become easier and sudden increases in level explained
Er, no. The rest of the faders can add up to 10dB of gain as well as attenuating. the signal. The same goes for EQ, dynamics, FX - they can all add positive or negative gain to the signal.
@ yeah I'm wrong I've just been looking at schematics And the big mixes do you have a gain after the fader and before the suming amp
but the fader is wired as an input accumulator and the amplifier has a fixed gain The input amp gain control is the only control that actually adjusts the gain of the amplifier
smaller mixes don't have the extra amp
😊
and the video Is right on I have seen guys mixing on the gain Controls very difficult when you've got the fader around zero dB you've got that subtle Control you need to make a mix
@@AlecSpence i'm only talking analog mixes digital mixes don't sum to infinity and the Eq Doesn't filter to infinity
analog mixers do
😊 Only in humour
To be honest, you both lack a complete understanding. Hypon is "more right", I guess. Anyway, if you want to see where the both of you are going wrong, explain what the difference is between gain and volume. You need to know that before we can move on.
Really like this 👍🏼🏴
100% faders to 0 and gain up (or gain to whatever sweetspot you believe in and trim down, but fader still at 0). Same with monitor mixes. If you set their vocal lets say at 0 on the send and gain it up til they're happy, you aren't going to have to push their master to +12. Same with FOH mixes, you get higher resolution with your faders at 0 for smaller movements. It sounds to me like people just have terrible gain structure and we're making excuses for them.
So if I have wireless mics like ULXD, should I have the receiver on line or mic level? I always use line level but I could be wrong.
Line level is correct.
The "mic level" mode is only for compatibility with some consumer-grade equipment (e.g. karaoke machines, outdoor battery-powered speakers) which have limited gain adjusment capability and thus cannot accept line-level signal from its mic port without clipping.
Am I the only one that usually sets gain to where they peak right before yellow or barely touching yellow? For example, on a Digico I gain at around -12. Seems to work well for me. I don’t like running sources past green, maybe transients hitting yellow but not past that.
Happy to this video and where having the same thoughts. Thank you 🙏🏻
Why do my Sennheiser EW-D packs have a gain adjustment within themselves? Should I be boosting the gain in them at all, or leave them at zero and increase the gain on my X32 only? In other words, is there a case where I should be boosting the gain on my individual mics? Thank you for your content and for any light you can shed on this.
You mentioned that we should set the PA speakers to max volume while controlling via a matrix.. will there be any risk of blowing the speakers, or somebody's ear drums if the mix engineer makes a mistake?
Question. If you dont put the fader on zero when setting the gain, where do you set the fader?
I've never understood the argument to put the faders at 0 and adjust the gain to get the volume correct. Why have faders if you're putting them at 0?
What about on an Avantis. It doesn’t make sense.
I find gain adjustments aren't perfectly linear across all frequencies. But I agree with the theory. I find the best sound comes from having 70-80% "volume".
Gain is not volume. Its completely different. Overall, this video was very good, but a few of us noticed that some of what he said wasn't entirely correct. I'm sure he will post an update. If not, its something you want to look into if you work with this type of equipment. Having a complete understanding of gain and volume will make your life a lot easer.
Overall, I thought it was a good video, but I think there may have been some mistakes. The one thing that stood out was I don't recall you mentioning volume. Most people only have at best a partial understanding of what the difference is between gain and volume. You used the term fader gain a couple of times. Faders are typically volume controls, not gain. And you went on to say you can set fader gain wherever you want and it won't effect the signal. That would be true if you're dealing with a volume control. A volume control can't harm, damage, alter, etc.... the signal. It attenuates, and nothing morel. And that's why you hear the term gain staging and not volume staging. So, the only way your statement can be true, is if the faders are really volume controls, because they can't alter the signal.
One other thing I noticed was you never mentioned the term trim. I think that's important because adjusting gain typically refers to an analog adjustment. Trim is considered to be a digital gain adjustment, and there's a difference between the two. When you adjust gain on an analog signal, signal strength is varied. Trim is adjusted by altering bit rate. So, the more you lower trim (digital gain), the signals bit rate comes down the lower you go. Because of this process, sometimes called bit stripping, gain staging typically involves making big adjustments while the signal is analog. Once the signal is converted to digital, small adjustments are made with trim.
Thanks for the video. A lot of guys around here suggest keeping the speaker volume at unity, but you had suggested to put your speakers to max volume, is that correct?
Good question. I think I wasn't clear about that. I would agree with Unity. On some speakers unity is max. The main takeaway I wanted people to get was don't turn down the speakers, reduce how much you're sending to them to give yourself headroom. Hope that clears it up!
Hi I really like your shows I am non sighted how can I get the best gain if if you can not see the meetres?? Thank you very much
Would it be possible to attach several very small pieces of tape alongside your gain knob or fader, to represent landmark levels, such as -18db and 0db? I suppose this would require some assistance to set up, but once it's done, it might give you what you need. Cheers and best of luck in your mixing.
Now that is a great idea I use a few analogue desks and certainly a little mark would really help thank you for the suggestion as I said I really enjoy your shows and have learned so much thank you
@@josephdeery4931 Glad I could help. Just to let you know, I'm not the guy who made this video, I just saw your comment and the tape idea occurred to me. I really hope it works out for you.
Do it by ears ! -18db is not a proper way to think about it ! Put your faders at 0db and turn up the gain until it feels good to you (eventually it will land around that gain) If you think about numbers and meters too much it will ruin you mixes, its all about earing not seeing ;)
Excellent tutorial here and very very well explained , its only been a year now I have moved completely over to Digital , reluctant at first to be honest, it is a big step , analogue for the last 30years Dynacord Power mate , moved by selling on my powermax 5 PA and I bought the New RCF's 935A's and for my digital desk ( Presonus 16:4:2 ) ok its old school but it really was what I think the best introduction to digital sound , right now looking at the desk I have my master fader just under just under the 0 for example to picture the top end of the fader touching the zero line , all other channel faders at zero , this would be my starting point , the gains mainly at 10/11 0 clock ,
do this seem ok to you ,
as for my RCF's I hear you say on your tutorial to crank them up full volume, this has kinda put me thinking am I under powering my RCF's where I have them set Linear at 2 on the clock , never needed to go to 3 , If I crank my speakers up full volume I wonder what will this firstly do the speakers themselves and with regards to my settings on my digital desk Presonus 16:4:2 ,
my thinking would be that I will be dropping all the channel faders way below zero , if im to leave my master fader close to zero ,
I have been told multiple times never to turn my speakers up full , am I driving the speaker amps too hot then or if you would oblige me by reading into all i said above in that you being the expert here, firstly tell me is my settings ok and where im going wrong and what you suggest I do to get the absolute best out of both the desk and the RcF's
, I did contemplate one night to bring the Rcf's to max ,well pretty close to full but quickly changed my mind and left them at 2 clock setting , I dont know but what I have learned in all the years in my music career is that every day is a school day , you have gained another subcriber for sure here and I will definitely be taking time out to view many of your other videos you put up , thank you in advance for any constructive information you can advise me on ,👍
I try to have the master gain knob a little higher at 1 - 2 O'clock. I think, that allows one to get that "headroom" everyone likes to talk about if your amps have good dynamic power. Generally, not turning everything up to 11 is the best for long term use of your eqpt regardless what Spinal Tap may say. LoL
When setting gain for mics, should we set it while the vocalist or speaker is at the loudest?
What about gain compression? Is something that just affects analog circuits or works with digital mixers as well?
The only addition I would add is to check the level coming into the mixer at the device itself. Having a healthy signal before hitting the mixer is important for gain staging. If you have a wireless mic, let's say a G-50, and the output setting is switched on "mic level", the signal will be different than the "line level" for example, and the gain amount at the board will differ as well.
The same logic applies to synths. Old analog synths will have a sweet spot on the output that maximizes signal and minimizes the noise, if you adjust it just right.
Hitting the board with a cleaner signal pays off as well, unless of course you are going for that shitty garage band sound. "Art is art", right?
Every once in a while I run into a speaker (person) that simply doesn't have enough natural volume. If I then gain the microphone to a level such that the channel runs at -18dB I run into feedback issues. How would you tackle this?
Another thing is that when all instruments are gained to -18dB, I see that some instruments need to be at a fader level -40dB for example. Would it then not be better to change those instruments to a lower gain level such that all channels are around fader level 0 so you have the highest resolution for all instruments?
you should put your fader at 0db before turning up the gain. That way you have more control on your faders because of the logarithmic scale. Having a fader at -40 is not the way to go you will have a harder time mixing. The same thing apply to your other issue and you should also use an 31 band EQ on your PA to eliminate the problematic frequencies
If the speaker doesn't have enough volume, it's usually a lack of instruction for the speaker on how to position the microphone properly. People that have soft voices can still be picked up pretty good if the microphone is close enough to their mouth. Of course, the gain levels will differ between someone who shouts into a microphone at close range versus someone who more or less mumbles at the same distance.
An approach for loud instruments is to assign them to a subgroup (that sends to main) and have the subgroup fader at a lower level, such that you can mix the instruments at a higher resolution, while still keeping overall volume at an acceptable level. You could roughly set the subgroup to -20dB and raise the instrument fader to -20dB to have more control over the mix of the particular loud instruments.
I'm not sure why some commenters think setting faders at 0dB before setting gain is a good idea. If you only focus on the faders (that usually end up in the main mix), you'll miss a proper signal level for, as the video also mentions, monitoring, recording outputs, etc. It's easier to attenuate a signal later on in the chain (e.g. assigning to subgroup and set the subgroup fader to a lower output level before going to the main mix) than to amplify an already weak signal. If your faders are set to 0dB (for example on the Midas M32R in the video), that means you'll have at most 10dB of amplification left. When you've set gain properly, and end up at -30dB on the fader, you'll have 40dB of headroom to play with!
@MrNGm, thank you for the comments, I do agree with the microphone placement thing, but I am struggling with some people with a lavalier that is placed at the exact same location as with others but they are still too soft. Effectively that causes feedback as I need to gain way more. So in order to resolve that issue I then have to apply a parametric EQ on the mic input?
@@MrBoogiee If you have preparation time, have the person using the lavalier come to you beforehand and place the lavalier at an appropriate spot (maybe a bit higher for soft speakers, and a bit lower for loud speakers). For wireless lavaliers there may be a configurable pre-amp on the transmitter. Configure the pre-amp on the transmitter they'll be using while keeping an eye on the wireless receiver for the audio levels.
If that time isn't there, or the same lavalier is regularly switched, you'll need to adapt (a stage hand with proper instructions might help as well, give them a bit of guidelines on lavalier placement with regards to the loudness of someone's voice). That could mean higher gain on the mixing desk, but also another look at EQ's for the lavalier, monitors and house. The exact frequencies that need attention differ per setup, but a guideline I've been using is dipping 630Hz, 1kHz, 6.3kHz some -3 to -6dB on house (simple 31-band EQ), and a low-shelf and high-shelf on monitors as well as dips on 1kHz and 6.3kHz with a parametric EQ (width could be some 150Hz both sides, dip to -3dB or -6dB). For vocals, you can usually apply low- and high-shelf as well, and fiddle a bit with the frequencies in between if the voice is too bass-heavy, or doesn't sound crisp. And it doesn't hurt to apply a bit of compression to vocals for sudden loudness spikes, if you have that available.
Another thing to consider is overall stage sound if you're using wedges on stage. If you'll need more gain on the lavalier, decrease the send to the monitor or the overall monitor volume. If the lavalier is the only source of sound on stage, mute all other channels, to prevent other microphones to pick up the monitor sound of the lavalier. (I think that's a good practice, as it eliminates other sound sources from interfering with your expected stage sound). Hope this helps!
@ thanks!
How would you set gain on a Mackie profx12v3
I canot download that pdf file. It report eror .
‘Get up enough from noisefloor and get down enough from clipping’ after theres the sweetspot 🎉
What is the "matrix" output?
If it works for you then by all means go with it…… as for me all my meters must hit a certain level as an average and peak at least a few dBs above that for all my channels. I get a clean signal and I get to s of head room from how I approach it.
I use the meters
What's your favorite console for live event?
People please remember that clipping damages your speakers. I see professional engineers constantly hitting the reds on everything and it really pisses me off. Also I have to agree that faders to zero isn't the best option, and in my personal experience, having worked in places where musicians on stage can hear the PA, it's better to set monitor levels with the PA out muted, cause that way they end up wanting their monitoring levels much quieter!
Clipping your signal is not killing speakers. Only clipping amps kill speakers.
Think of the scenario when driving your guitar amp input into distortion. That distortion isn’t a square wave the speaker is seeing.
@@cweednz the distortion you'd get on a guitar is usually completely different to clipping. anything like saturation is not going to damage speakers. only flat clipped waves do that. yes a clipping amp is going to kill speakers, but sending an already clipped signal to an amp that's not clipping isn't going to change anything! (remember that digital consoles clip on 0dBFS, just like an audio file)
@LeChapeauMusicyes 👍👍
I am sorry but this video is so full of misinformation about audio engineering, I know we are in the same field but it really does feel like we have incredibly different lived experiences.
This video has multiple flaws:
1. GAIN happens BEFORE the analog to digital conversion, this is why it is so incredibly important to set right. TRIM happens after the conversion and is no different than turning up or down the fader. They really do sound different when turned up, I implore everyone to give that a go sometime and hear the difference for yourself.
Of course you definitely do not want to clip in your Analog to Digital conversion stage.
2. In the section about gain staging problems you mentioned precisely WHY I gain on 0dB faders, I do not want to have to work with little control over my fader down in the logarithmic hell of -10 to -∞ for my main mix. That absolutely is starting from the start with the end in mind, the end in mind is 0dB on my faders. If a channel is too loud or too quiet coming in I will go to the sound source and either turn it up or down or ask the person in control of the sound source to change the volume.
I already had a sense that you didn't run your video ideas by peers when you made a video about VCA's and making them control the FX returns rather than FX sends, controlling the FX send will let you keep the tail end of a reverb or delay when you cut the volume or let you drive a compressor more or less.
In this video you do not tell us *why* your fellow professional peers gain to 0dB on the faderfader, you also clearly did not fact check your claim that the gain stage is different than the trim & fader stages. Its really upsetting to me that you would upload these videos because I know you do this out of passion for the craft and you want to teach others how this field works and I have learned some things from your channel! I will not be unsubscribing, I want to see you grow Andrew.
With kind but critical regards,
Goblin 🌺
Personally I wouldn't turn up my power amps all the way. You said speakers so I assume you're talking about self powered speakers.
Would have really been good with some practical examples
Meters baby. Thought this was rule 101.
Sorry, but I find it ridiculous that there are people who think that low ass gain doesn't matter. Who the hell are these people?
It’s better to have your levels full and green and using a compressor to keep it there than to clip your master bus when a vocal or a snare or a kick or a bass gets out of control
This is so not the way to setup gain in a live situation
In studio your way of doing it is good but in live you should put all you faders a 0db and then turn up the gain to adjust the balance
You should almost mix with gain during sound Check and solo are almost never needed in live sound ;)
And you should turn your system to have a confortable volume with 25db of gain on a SM58
Input gain is like engine oil in your car. If you don’t have enough, the car won’t work right.