I'm blown away by the response to this video & have deep gratitude for everyone who responded. But I simply cannot respond to each of you anymore so here are some OTHER ways to connect! If you resonated with a lot of what is in this video, you'd probably love to do a retreat with me and you can learn all about those here: melmitchelljackson.com/book-a-retreat If you're interested in community, I've got a Persistent Bloom discord server over here: discord.gg/8MCVYUkQQZ And I have an email newsletter/membership over on the platform Substack! melmitchelljackson.substack.com which is free to join or you can subscribe for monthly exclusive content and creative prompts. ⭐ - Mel
It's a damn good video. I received my BFA in Graphic Design from KU in 2017. I know a bunch of folks who went to the KC Art Institute and JCCC. I was always envious of coworkers who got degrees at JCCC (3 miles from where I grew up). If I could go back, I would have gotten my degree there and saved some major dough. Your advice is spot on what I would tell anyone looking to get a BFA in Art. You rock!
I can understand what “collective Power” would mean to coop galleries, creativity, and encouraging each other. But I cannot quite understand how that will meaningfully impact the market and buyer ceilings for fine or handmade arts and crafts, domestic or otherwise.
Most artists (including myself) don't make a living from it. Why bother with the massive expensive art school when can learn art skills without that huge expense?
totally fair. I think that people like me were influenced by adults who wanted to see us find success, and to them, there would be huge limits for us without a degree, no matter what that degree was. But to the highschoolers I teach now, I am much more willing to speak frankly and with caution.
@@MelMitchJackArt it is worthwhile having some small group tuition from various artists. For example, I did evening classes & oils decades ago & some of those skills were transferable to acrylics which I specialise in. Different teachers have various things to offer. Now all that info is conveniently on platforms like this. I was put off art at school as the teacher was too critical & "fixed" the students' art. I picked up art again as an adult & learned different things from different artists who also did small group classes or camps.
@@soarpurpose i love that you had great experiences with evening courses and through other platforms. I teach in community art centers, at a local farm in their event space, and online -- basically anywhere that will let me use the space -- and its so freeing. i love offering affordable classes and building lasting relationships with students.
@@MelMitchJackArt I think most fulltime artists either teach and/or do commissions. I don't have social capacity to teach in person (even though ironically I have a teaching qualifications). I do like sharing bits & pieces from what I've learned, which people have said has helped them.
As a retired private college financial administrator, I offer several observations: 1. Most colleges and universities are in the business of overcharging students. In other words, they are not trying to keep the cost of a college education down, but they are instead trying to figure out how to maximize their return on each student. Financial aid is really a process of trying to load as much debt onto students as possible while raising tuitions as rapidly as possible. 2. Government loans are not helping. They have the simple effect of subsidizing the goals of the college or university. If the government gives x in loans, the institution raises its rates by, you guessed it, x. 3. The single most pervasive problem in college administration is the balooning cost of administration. Professors are clamoring for administrative roles, and often roles are created out of whole cloth to be able to line the pockets of specific professors. While even tenured professor salaries are not particularly high, the actual annual income of those professors, all in, is due to those add-ons--chair person of the department, made up titles, etc. 4. Every prospective student that comes in the door is a mark. If the institution manages to get that student to attend, the student serves to prop up the feeding frenzy that is higher ed. 5. PhDs in all fields are severely over-produced. Why, then, are there not pressures to lower the cost of professors? First of all, there are such pressures: Adjunct professors are paid enough to pay for rent and food, that is all. Adjuncts are the dregs, the benchers, the non-anointed ones. Second, the pressure is held off by imposing very high bars for the selection of new tenure track professors. With high barriers to entry into professorships, the professors on the inside of the barrier are running an ologopoly or monopoly, and can hike their own compensation. 6. Do educational institutions care that the birth rate fell and the end is nigh? No, not at all. They are far too busy on the merry go round, lining their own pockets, to plan for downsizing. Most of the administrative types are far too drunk on money and prestige to even care.
I agree 100%. Speaking of titles and do-nothing jobs: I'm from Wyoming, I joined the Navy for the college money, did a 6 year enlistment, and attended a U in Utah (it was not BYU). Since I was using my GI Bill to pay for college, I went to the U's veteran's assistance office. They get so few people going through there that when I showed up, I made the lady jump in surprise because she's so used to going days/weeks/months without anybody seeking services. I figured out pretty quick that it's a do-nothing job that they throw to old ladies as a twilight soon-to-retire "job". She had no idea how to do anything, that was a system that I had to figure out and navigate myself. The only military people that come through that place are ROTC that haven't served active-duty yet and have their own administration set up for their needs. Veterans are as rare as hen's teeth in that place, I never encountered another veteran in 5 years there (in an engineering program that started with about 200 people and pared down to 40 by graduation). If you tell anybody that you served overseas, they think you were out on a mormon mission. (I quickly nicknamed that place "BYU-wannabe".) Since I had just gotten out of the Navy, I luckily had some good practice dealing with and navigating a bureaucracy. At the ole U, there were plenty of those kind of do-nothing jobs, people just sitting behind a desk drinking coffee, playing solitaire on their computer, listening to podcasts, etc.
Exhibit A - Claudine Gay, who despite having to resign in disgrace as Harvard’s president, still maintains her tenured position and will make plenty of money despite being an academic fraud.
I went to a fine art school, but now work in illustration. When I was going to school, the school completely villainized illustrators and illustrative art styles as "selling out" and not "real" art. I later started getting work in illustration and am now lucky enough to make a living doing illustration in a niche field that has so far been untouched by AI and may never be affected by it. I'm incredibly lucky and grateful. I just think that if my school didn't brainwash me into believing that illustration or the decorative arts were "less than" then I could have gotten into this field much sooner and made a lot more money than I have now. Instead I toiled away for years trying to break into "fine art" which I learned later was bogus anyway, like you said.
Almost all my favorite living artists are book illustrators, tarot artists, and board game artists. Media illustration is where most of the classically beautiful art is, that I've seen.
I was once told if you are a great and talented artist but bad at business and marketing, you will fail, but if you are a mediocre artist but an amazing business and marketing person, you will succeed. I have seen this over and over again in the business of art.
:( I wanted to go, I got into art school... but 9k a semester ever after scholarships (mind you 9k is just 4 classes) not including housing, food, etc.
for all you art students right now in art college: YOUR GRADES ABSOLUTELY DO NOT MATTER. YOUR PORTFOLIO WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT GETS YOU A JOB.
I got a scholarship to Art Center College of Design because of my high school grades and had to maintain standing on the Deans List to keep it. So grades can matter.
@@Bluetree0502 I believe the comment about grades not mattering was referring to the job market. I've hired many graphic designers over the course of my career, and never once asked about grades - it's all about the portfolio, and the how and why design solutions were achieved.
Just get a damn degree... That's what matters. Even the cheapest, low hanging fruit of a degree will bear the biggest rewards and opportunities - as opposed to NOT having one.
"why do colleges keep investing in over-the-top construction projects?" because it's alllll speculative real estate investment, baby! there's very little more profitable than real estate - education certainly isn't more profitable than it! your tuition is just their starting capital.
hehe i love this comment. and HATE THAT ITS TRUE. but yes. they are speculative real estate, baby! The more i got to know how a lot of galleries operate as loss leaders for larger real estate businesses the more i realized i was trapped in a tax dodging scheme for the owning class.
@@mggardiner4066facts. I went to BU, and spent my junior year in a rodent-infested dorm that hadn’t been renovated since the 70s. meanwhile, brand new center for computing and data sciences with very few usable student spaces…
This is not only for artist, this is for Architects, Graphic, Industrial/Product, Fashion, interior designers, musicians and music producers... even for IT people and engineers who want to be independent, etc.
Yeah, well I always say, never studying ANYTHING that has a small demand for. Art, basket weaving, social science, and other subjects that either are not in demand, or pay very little is a waste of time.
@@JohnBowl14690 Problem is, when you need one of those services and no one knows how to do them what do you do? In order for knowledge to be passed on people have to keep it alive otherwise it becomes forgotten. The problem isn't willingness to learn, but the gatekeeping keeping the knowledge at a premium to keep people out.
@@JohnBowl14690 Dude, plumbing, carpenters, there are lists of jobs people are not learning and the masters of the trades are all retiring due to health issues or aging out. Majority of able body young adults went into tech, or soft easy carriers because they know those trades kill your body and don't rewards you for the wear and tear on your body. This I only do it for the cash mentality leads to everyone earning the same wage across the board. The equality of outcome.
@@Galahad993 The government doesn't tell us these things to begin with so how would they fucking know to begin with? The education system doesn't teach them shit about debt in highschool. They don't teach us about taxes. They don't teach us how to be smart with our money. That should be a responsibility of the education system, a system run by, guess what, the government. Not to mention not everyone has parents that know this type of shit so they can't blame the parents either.
Paying this and not even GUARANTEEING a job after school is so dystopian. I truly dont understand why I didn’t go to a community college for school. I def drank the kool aid
I went to community college, learned a lot but the degree has yet to earn me more than $25/hr which is not enough to live alone on a studio in my state 🙃
Tbh I want to a community college but even I havtn managed to make my degree work. Places don’t wanna give me the 5 years experience I need to use it☠️
good thing i decided to go to community college and not a university. it seems like i made a good choice even tho i have to accept not going to my dream uni after :/
@@HotCocoRockkah Now imagine if you had gone to art school and your student loan payments were much higher, and you still only made $25 an hour. You did the better thing.
@elipotter369 yeah I get that... but it is basic risk management. The odds of being financially successful are ifintesimally small. Combine that w compounding interest rates AND the idea you lose out on other skills and experiences you could be building during that time. So... ppl need to think about mitigating risk of not being successful. Plenty of ways to do that. Be thoughtful. Make good decisions... sucks to suck.
@@Afrez1189 - Adult minds think of those things. But an 18 yr old high school student making college decisions does not. Their brain isn’t even finished developing. The parent is either ill informed or doesn’t want to talk the kid out of their blind ambition. I get it, it’s a tough situation all around. Who wants to be the parent who wouldn’t let their kid follow their passion.
@67NewEngland I'm straight up refusing to fund my daughter's art nonsense post highschool. She can do what she wants... but I'm not participating in it.
YEEEEP. I think its hard because kids going to these schools are so malleable and often felt like misfits or were bullied earlier in life. They just want to make their teachers (who function like heroes to them) impressed or happy with their choices. I was under the mentorship of a former professor that ended up taking a very dark turn. But all i ever wanted was to try and be good enough in his eyes. I made a lot of choices that looking back now were egregious class warfare against myself because i just wanted to fit in.
@@MelMitchJackArt me at 33 back in art school again for the second time, wanting to impress my instructor to feel like I belong. A grown man. Me. Realized nobody gaf and I'm not sure I want to make art a career.
@@jonathanthompson592 it’s okay to leave and come back. I definitely did, I also realized that I stopped trying to impress certain people when their life was not one that I wanted for myself.
Exactly. This is the mindset that is killing art schools. They are SO against entrepreneurship while simultaneously taking all your money! 😂 Now with the internet available, they can no longer compete.
Yes, Marxism has ruined every aspect of Higher Learning by simultaneously making students debt slaves while making students completely ignorant and opposed to finding any ways not to be a debt slave. Leftism is Cultural Cancer the world over. Just try to think of the most interesting, or impressive works of "Socialist" art, music, sculpture, architecture, etc........See, there are none. Get woke. Go broke........Every. Single. Time.
I’m a self taught artist and always love wanting to go to art school, but it was way too expensive but now I just click on RUclips and there’s some great instructors and great artist that I could learn from and I just want to say thank you so much for your videos. You’re awesome.
@@G5020-gb5zq youtube is an awesome resource for beginner & experienced artists. I don't put my tips behind pay walls as I see art as a therapeutic endeavour & should be made accessible to anyone, including those on low incomes.
Art school was fun. But they literally said out loud that the only way to make a living was with teaching. Which required more school. But then that changed, and now teaching full time isn’t a thing. The only way it makes sense to go to art school is to be born rich. Be born rich or you simply won’t be able to get along in art school.
@@Accountdeactivated_1986 It is true they said teaching or just "moving to New York" but luckily i came from an art youth program for under-resourced communities. the friends i made there i STILL have and they helped me realized teaching didnt have to happen at higher ed and my existing degree was plenty. its how i make a living still!
@@G5020-gb5zq agreed- there are fantastic online teachers and discourse! I am “returning to painting” after 20 years, and wanted to go back to school to fill in a bunch of holes in my art education from the later ‘80s (where expressionism was KINGQUEENTHEWHOLEROYALFAMILY)… I watch RUclips videos and have recently taken a year long course with a favorite painting teacher(with Ian Roberts -a fantastic teacher)- entirely online, for a tiny fraction of what a year back in art school would have set me back. Yes, great conversation, I look forward to the revolution… a la salon de refusé! We are creatives, creating
@@recynd77 You are right. Even subsidized can be hard to repay, but the private loans have no special repayment options such as Income-based and Income-contingent. Also, subsidized loans can be forgiven, as we have seen.
For these reasons I opted not to pursue art school, rather I started working regular jobs and using that to collect professional grade art materials, paints brushes and linen canvas. While along the way studying from books and video on how to paint and draw realism. I haven’t reached commercial success but I’m very happy with my work and the smiles I’ve gotten from others.
Thank you for your insight. I'm a Graphic Designer based in Los Angeles. In 2009, I couldn't attend Cal Arts due to financial constraints, so I chose to study at CSULA, graduating with under $10,000 in debt. Today, I'm a Graphic Designer in the fashion industry. I once believed that missing out on the art school experience was a setback, but I've since realized it wasn't necessary for my success. Your perspective reinforces that one doesn't need to attend an expensive art school to thrive in this field. Thank you for that reassurance.
I'm a prof at a Cal State school in an allied healthcare discipline. My students spend a small fraction of what they would pay at USC and are equally well prepared to enter the work place. I've taught back east too and the Cal State schools are one of the remaining affordable university systems. BTW, in a previous life, I went to art school at a UC in the early 80s and paid about $500 a year for tuition. My understanding is that tuitions have gone up in a lot of the state university systems because we don't devote nearly as much tax dollars to systems. So, slowly, over time, tuitions crept up...
I'm so hyped. I got my first bachelor's degree in art from an expensive private (non-art) university. While I graduated and ended up starting my own photography business in LA then worked as a graphic designer-engineer, the price was nowhere near worth it compared to a State school at the end of the day (I originally started at SDSU). I'm starting a second bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering this fall at CSULA and I'm really impressed at the affordability and what is available in the engineering department. I feel like the CSU's do a really good job at preparing you for getting a job and I was disappointed that I no longer had the resources that SDSU had once I transferred to the small private school. & I recently saw a comment on reddit where someone who was a hiring manager stated that some of the best hires have come from CSULA over other top performing engineering schools. The vibe I've been getting from CSULA already has been really unique compared to my experience at other schools. They really seem to be operating with intent and a focus on collaboration, hands-on experience, and community. I haven't gotten to see much of the Art department at CSULA but from what I've seen it looks really nice & they offer wayyyy more than what was available at the private school I went to!
Great video that speaks volumes, thank you! I went to art school in the 80's ( SAIC & Pratt ) and it wasn't nearly as expensive as the numbers you're quoting today. The business part of art was never taught in school but I wish they did. We all had desires of making a living in art but were aware of the slim chance that would ever happen. Art education was about enriching our lives as creative people, not business.
@@sacdigitaldesignwebso true. especially using federal aid and there are a gazillion scholarships that exist. it just takes time to find them and apply
I would love to see more conversation about this. Student debt is outrageous, but the discussion IMO should be about why the costs are high, not why we should forgive student loans.
As a recently retired Professor of Art, I couldn't agree more. Way to GO! You're just years too late with this, but So Much better to blow the whistle finally.
I went to the American Academy of Art in Chicago in 1971-1974. The tuition was around $1000 per year. In today's money that is $9,000. I worked to pay the tuition. I was able to spend 37 years working as a graphic artist and oil paint as a hobby.
@@annewebbpots Some believe in tradition or doing certain things at certain age when that is not physically viable by any means today. They truly believe you can and must "do what they did". There is an old lady who believes in getting real estate, North Korea range of haircuts and wearing formal beige office clothes the moment you hit 20. Anything else is frivolous uncouth failure.
@@InternetNonsense sounds like a criticism that every generation has of the ones before them, to be honest. Don’t think that boomers didn’t have their own struggles, just different struggles for a different time. Is that ‘old lady’ with the beige suits a random person or one of your profs?
That's indeed criminal .... far far far worse than Medical School. Cheaper to get a plane ticket, a work visa, and go live in Europe for a few years while young. After a few years apply as a temp resident to Oxford or Cambridge or one of the premier Art schools ..... it will be 10x cheaper & 100 x better. There are no rules in Art. Status quo Art profesores are simply inhibitors of and detrimental to art. Famous artists become so when they paint like themselves (their own style) and not like someone else whose name is already known. Problem is, we don't live in the big ancient civilizations' thinking & grandeur. They (Ancients) valued art, science, learning, and knowledge. Built outstanding architecture, made advances that we use today. Our culture values nothing but the acquisition of gold. (Money) Rock pet fetish.
The past thousands of years of exploration in arts has exhausted all creative originality. We don’t need more arts. We can just appreciate what we’ve gotten already.
My partner went to cranbrook for his masters. About 150k in debt, hasn’t been able to even get a job in art or grants or any programs. Was the poorest kid in the school, realized how elitist the art world is.
True. I hope he heals and gets out of his debt. But unfortunately, he is right about the art world being elitist. It’s…pretty much always been that way throughout history. From the Medicis sponsoring artists and artisans, to the infamous “Austrian artist” (I didn’t even know at first that he was an artist) and how his work being rejected motivated him on his…goals, and even throughout periods such as the 60s where rich people gathered around artists and up to today where also rich people wanted to pay for a banana taped on a wall.
Of course it is and always has been. Only rich people can/will pay for luxury items like art. Virtually every "great artist" you've ever heard of relied on the charity and good graces of their "patrons"(public and private) to fund their career, and it's no different than folks on RUclips that now rely on "Patreon". "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
@@MelMitchJackArtI can asure you it is not ‘universel’. In Belgium, no matter what you want to studie at university, you NEVER pay more than €1.000. So that will be like 3500 for 4 years and mostly your parents pay everything( including books, materials, housing, food etc). If your parents don’t make enough money the government helps pay the costs. I don’t think anyone here in Belgium has studentdebts.
I have a BFA from what I consider a deeply flawed program. At the time I went, illustration was peaking and unfortunately on the decline with every year I was there. This was the early 90’s. I had a decent scholarship that knocked off half my tuition the first two years. I can’t imagine going to that same school today. Tuition has almost quadrupled in price. They have a comics illustration degree. For the love of god, do not go to a school to study how to make comics. Not only can you learn the craft for almost free on your own, but you will never recoup the $200k plus tuition doing comics alone. Just don’t.
deeply relatable. and fully agree! I feel most of the same way about studying Painting BUT glad that i learned technique, didn't give into the pressure to just make ~*~*relational aesthetics~*~*
Well put. I took exactly one computer arts course and it was so slow and outdated, that it was a complete waste of tuition. Everything else has been learned through online lessons or working with peers.
As a animation major with the same flawed curriculum and seeing all the news about the industry and strikes I'm not looking forward to graduation by next semester
I went to a very prestigious fine art school. A number of artists in my fine art graduating class became "art stars." there were extremely exceptional artists whose work you couldn't ignore - but ironically, those artists tended to be the ones who got critiqued hardest with the most cruel comments by teachers and peers during class - they were bullied and even told to stop making art. So the outdated view of the art world being taught is def not on the pulse anymore. One of these art stars made it big with NFT's and is now a millionaire. A few are social activists for their specific cultures and as their social work gained fame so did their art. Plenty of them came from money or inherited a ton of money and were therefore able to continue making art after college without working. One thing people don't talk about is that many famous artists never went to art school... the ones we study, some had ateliers but most modern artists just made art. It's really who you know. My biggest regret about art school is that I should have spent more time schmoozing and building close relationships with my peers vs making art all the time. Group shows get recognition and nobody is gonna invite you to a group show with them if you aren't friends. Same thing with film school - if you're going to an arts school then go with the intention of networking, with art making being secondary. Otherwise save your money and instead make art / films!
In Toronto there was/is an artist who makes very good stuff at a pretty high volume and often is changing styles. He is very good at selling the work and building a waiting list. When there's an opening it's like a 'drop' people have already been waiting months to buy. He is collected by celebrities and so on. But he is disliked by "the community" of artists because he doesn't go to their (mostly lame) shows. And people are jealous because he's very productive and successful. Making is high priority. He used to make things under assumed names to sell on ebay to figure out people's tastes. I'm not sure his business tactics at the moment. But he's put together very impressive packages to send to galleries in major cities and eventually one picked him up. But that was years ago now. Not sure if he went to art school or not. But he's got good taste in my view. (I have an MA and am a part time art/design prof sometimes.)
@@BenWeeks-ca Good for him! The art world is just so snobby sometimes. It's really unfortunate... unnecessary gatekeeping. Much art we study through history was made to sell. The idea of the starving artist is no longer romantic. This guy gets it though - art is at the end of the day, a product. No matter how deep or conceptual it is. It's a product for a market to be sold... There should be no shame in treating it as such.
@Betcaligarcia some Vtubers are artists. Ina and Roara of Hololive do drawing livestreams. Others do too but those especially. Shiguri Ui too. She got into Vtubing because she was making the models. You don't have to do traditional art.
I graduated from Chouinard Art Institute in Los Angeles in 1970. It later became CalArts. At that time the mythology was that you were somehow supposed to work a 40 hour week in the studio, whether anyone was buying your art, paying your bills for you, or not... the model for this was all the admittedly great abstract expressionists in New York who spent all their time in the studio or in the Cedar Bar, or in LA, Barnie's Beanery. Needless to say, this left a glaring question unanswered ..."What did they live on?" They were doing this before they were selling. We were all bewildered by this but had no answers..and felt very guilty because we couldn't put that off,,,. until we discovered.......THEIR WIVES SUPPORTED THEM! These women pretty much all worked for the NY Public schools, and they supported these guys asses for years, and got NO credit. The art world is FULL of lies about money. The things that they did teach about money were mercenary in the extreme. For my four years, I basically got a full ride, something I deeply appreciated, and made it possible for me to be there. But this lying about the realities of surviving while an artist is an old story and is still going on. The best advice I ever heard was... " learn a skill you are at peace doing and get a part time job, and do your own work In your own way, in your own time, either that or learn to write grants and get really good at it." My advice is for shows.... don't frame stuff. It will bankrupt you. Find ways to present your work without investing more money in having a show than you can make back unless you sell every single piece. You are totally right on. The way the art world operates at the higher levels is really repellent. Making art is the voice of the heart. It should never be treated like a 12 year old child being sold for sex. In the face of all this grubby sordid world, both I and my husband are in our 70s and we are still doing our work, it is the best and truest it has ever been. It makes us happy. Even if we put it all on our funeral pyres when we die, we have done what we are called to do, and are happy.
The only thing that surprises me in that entire comment of yours is that the artists were congregating at Barney's Beanery??? 😅😅 the one in Glendale? That's where my alumni association sets up shop to watch football games and I simply cannot wrap my brain around that being an hip art spot 😂 I will have to pay more attention to the place clearly.
Bingo. Without the support of my wife I'd be dead much less able to do my art. Of course this was after I had compromised and became a furniture and woodworker for 30 years when my business that I had struggled and died in 2006 after 8 years of business. My wife saw where I was. At the end. I offered divorce and separation but she wouldn't have it. Sometimes you have to tell God who you are and stick to it no matter what the cost.
The prices are absolutely insane, especially for something that 1) You are not likely to be able to live off of, and 2) You can easily study independently and/or find far cheaper classes elsewhere, like the small gallery my sister took classes at.
Oh I agree. Back in 2009 the wealth of info online was not quite as expansive and RUclips was still mostly funny skit videos. Things have definitely changed and I think these places really need to change how they run things if they have any chance at a future.
WOOOOOAH I actually attended the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts my freshman year. I do not consider art school a complete waste, but it most definitely set me back in my art career. NONE of the teachers or mentors taught me that the sky is the limit with what I can do in freelance. I am just now getting back on my feet creative wise, but unlearning that self-doubt they instill in you is no joke.
Yeah, there's so much derision for doing things that aren't trying so hard to be avant garde. I had so many professors who were more content talking about their own mediocre work instead of teaching. And the artist statement gobbledygook is so absurdly awful that it's purely performative at this point.
My grandpa was a professor at U of Arts in Philly, he taught silversmithing there many decades ago. So when I heard it closed, I was curious about it & looked on their website. The tuition alone was $51,000/yr, & that was just tuition only. So you still need to buy books, supplies, food, & housing. I couldn't believe it.
And even at the student cafe coffee costs $6. I was one of the UArts graduate students that just lost my school, my degree , my money with only one summer semester to go. And the school was no help at all. Hey told us if email the night before that they wouldn’t exist in the morning. No transition process, nothing.
it's so absurd cuz it's like how did they possibly think that that model was going to work to make the University like function I just don't get it. so few people can pay that and even the ones who can aren't going to go because becoming an artist isn't what the children of millionaires generally are doing. they're becoming influencers lol
@@cj222100 I remember visiting the animation fair in Stuttgart, Germany Back in 2018 and they had an animation school from New York trying to recruit potential students there. The lady behind the table went on and on about how they're one of the most affordable art schools in NY with the most student-friendly offers. The school was 44 thousand a year, also tuition only. She did not understand why I was refusing and laughing at her offer.....
ABSOLUTELY. buy a big house OR buy land and split it up and live on an artist commune with your friends. Teach each other stuff and study at online art schools, and then the interest and money you pay in is equity NOT student loan debt.
@@MelMitchJackArt Young people who can sign their futures away for student loans are almost uniformly unable to qualify for mortgages to get a house. I guess if you could swing it, you could take out a crazy student loan, use it to buy a house (assuming you have access to the down payment somehow) then rent the house and use the rent to pay tuition.
@@zoetribur3394 My roommate took out extra money for all of her other expenses. Housing, car, leisure and entertainment. She got a doctorate in nueroscience, and was gobsmacked when her student loan payments started. She used to always reference her professor/boss in terms of what her professional track would resemble. The reality was that she’d have to wait for this guy to move on (promotion/retirement/passing) to make room for her to have THAT job. Her lab pay was essentially minimum wage. This is happening to many/most students, not just the arts.
The only real thing art school did for me was heavily contribute to my anxiety issues, gave me my first panic attack, and PTSD. I remember right before graduating going to the career services office and asking them how to find a job as an illustrator (because my teachers all failed to answer this - giant red flag) and they straight up wanted me to sit next to them at a computer and they opened Google.. I nearly fainted and I told them “I’m not feeling well” and ran away and never went back. I graduated, but I felt sick to my stomach.
Oh wow. We have a kinship. Career services emailed me a link to the Arts and Design page of the U.S. Dept of Labor's Occupational Outlook Handbook, which said "About 95,800 openings are projected each year." Huh. Well, I'll just sign up for opening 95,799 by writing a letter to the Secretary of Labor or what exactly? Career services was having high turnover at the time and was unable to assist further, according to a follow-up email that also told me that building my future was MY responsibility. True. But why then repopulate career services when its existence proclaims that we whiny stupid in-debt babies can expect some kind of... career services. 🙄
Wow! I had similar situation. Senior year I was asking teachers and career services what previous fine art majors were doing after graduating. Teachers avoided the question, and career services handed me a gallery guide and told me to look there. As if it's so easy to get in those high end places. A few years later, after I graduated, someone new was hired. I had hopes she could help, but the same thing - take a gallery guide. 🙄
I've been a professional photographer for 30 years. My 27 year old son is an illustrator. Neither of us has ever had a job as an artist; there are NO JOBS. You have got to be a small businessperson to make a good living. I'm semi-retired now, but I made a middle class income and was able to support myself and my son (I raised him by myself without any involvement from his mother who chose not to be part of his life). My son has a degree in computer science and works as a software engineer; but he actually makes enough to live off his illustration work, done in his spare time, if he didn't have his job. He just saves and invests his income from art, and a large part of what he makes as a software engineer too, since the cost of living is low here and he is making 3-4x what most workers here earn. He got one commission from a big aerospace company that made him $40,000 a few yrs ago. I taught him the stuff that art schools refuse to teach students: how to find and cultivate clients, how to negotiate commissions, and what to charge. I struggled for several years after I graduated from art school because we got NOTHING on how to make a living. Fortunately, I was a photographer, and photography is an easier art field to earn a living in than something like painting or sculpture..
That’s a problem with a lot of universities. I went to film school and none of them told me how to find a job or even what a PA was. Luckily I found a mentor who helped me. But it was tough for a bit. In my opinion, there should not be art schools. Just art trade schools or community college classes. Getting in debt should only be for careers like doctors, lawyers, etc. Aka careers where you NEED through knowledge and time to make connections.
You have really done creative people a service here. I went to art school but have worked most of my life in jobs that use my creativity. It hasn’t been the pure art life that is modelled in college but I’ve made a sustainable living. As I head towards retirement I can do more and more of my own work. What you have articulated is so important.
Art schools are definitely way too expensive and most are not very good at teaching art. I'm in the process of opening an art academy to teach people how to paint realistically in oils.
My daughter was quite skilled in art and dance. I went with her to a well known private Art Institute in Seattle, WA. We sat through presentations on Graphic Design and Dance. One parent asked the dance school presenter about employment after completing four years. After listening for the reassurance that gainful employment was possible it became obvious that graduates struggled and had to secure other employment to do dance for free. My daughter later graduated with a degree in dance from a state university, but ended up getting a three year degree in physical therapy (Dr. PT) by taking on quite a debt load. She is now a practicing physical therapist and ballroom dances with her husband for fun.
27:58 100%. If you want to make a living as an artist, you have to approach and treat it like a business. Being a full-time artist is a job. This is why the starving artist trope exists--most artists either don't realize this or refuse to accept it. There are like six people in the world who are savants that can produce one work per year and sell it for tens of thousands and live off of it until they decide to make another painting, and chances are, you the reader are not one of them. So if you're already full-time or planning to go that route, make a business plan if you haven't already (seriously, *make a business plan*), set realistic expectations and sales goals, organize your planner and board so you stay on track, and prepare to work.
i love this comment. first off, those folks aren't so much savants as people with wealthy parents.... to sell a painting for 10K means you have connections to the blue chip gallery system which is a wealthy exclusive elitist club. HOWEVER making a business plan is 100% the first step. I didn't ever actually consider doing this (lol) until I watched Kelsey Rodriguez's videos here on youtube. After I made my business plan it transformed my biz. SUCH an important thing.
@flowerbloom5782 yeah! I would suggest my friend Kelsey Rodriguez as her content is hyper-focused on art business. She also has a free discord server where folks help support one another on their art business journeys. Such an amazing and powerful resource.
@soarpurpose i think this is why the concept around having different income streams (i teach, constantly! its where 70% of my income comes from) is so important. and also being realistic as to when is the right time to walk away from a day job vs keeping something part time to keep income flowing but not burning yourself out.
I never knew about you guys. People who follow an “Art Proffession”. I am almost 80 years old. I am an artist. I’ve made very little money with my art. I grew up in NYC. I went to the High School of Music and Art, and I loved it. I didn’t have the money to go to college and get a degree. But I did judge shows, I taught art to children and adults. I’ve had two solo shows. I’ve sold my work.I won awards and recognition. I’ve been the featured artist at Festivals. I’ve managed a gallery and had newspaper articles written about me. I didn’t have college debt. I’ve exhibited my work in galleries. I have printed, painted, drawn and sculpted. I’ve did take some courses at community colleges. As of late I’m learning a lot from RUclips artists. I’m now mostly doing Pastels cause I love color, Realism. A couple of days ago I drew a dog portrait in Pastels that made me cry when I profoundly felt the connection to “Lucky”. I am an artist. I remember laughing when someone told me that So and So was an artist cause he graduated Art School. I thought it was a weird definition of an art. I’ve learned enough about famous artists’ bios to be envious, amazed and be proudly touched by their work. I have tried to sell my work, write my statements and follow the prescribed course. I will actually be 80 next month. In August. I brought up my five children and have grandchildren. I am happy and still I wish I could choose jut one medium. But I can’t. Watercolor, oils, printmaking, ink and Pastels all call me at once. I keep away from clay but I am thrilled to now be living in Fort Collins, Colorado, Vera Loveland where there are so many marvelous bronze statues 😂that I can touch!! In NYC the statues are out of reach, in pedestals or in watchful eyes of museum guards. Now I can touch to my hearts content. What I mean to say is I’m sorry for you kids that have been burdened with the cost of your education, but now we have the Internet, books and nature. Recognize that becoming an artist is not defined by a college degree, but it is who you are. I had some crappy little jobs but my degree is in Mothering. My Passion is being an artist. You know if you are without a piece of paper. Once someone asked me how I saw my future or something like that, I remember saying that if i had no money or anything, I would still be happy to be drawing with a twig and a puddle of water. I love being an artist.
oh my gosh, i love this comment so much! I love your attitude, desire to keep learning, and what you call your "degree in mothering"! Folks like you are always some of my favorite students when i teach at the community center and farm. Y'all make such cool work because you're completely free from the expectations to make something look or feel the way someone else told you to. "Recognize that becoming an artist is not defined by a college degree, but it is who you are." thats going on my studio wall for sure 💕
I loved your story. I found a book about how to find art supplies in nature - and this changed my life. I was able to afford to paint again. ruclips.net/video/ro87-LJ39pQ/видео.htmlsi=CXpoLKmLHhB4346O I save up materials so I can share them with people in other areas.
Crazy expensive. I am so happy for you that you were able to keep costs down and kudos for working so hard to do so! These numbers are ridiculous and not feasible for most people.
Yes, haven’t it kinda been wisdom among anybody that it’s extremely difficult to make a living with art, doesn’t every parent tell that to their creative kid?
One time in art school, I asked a visiting artist/professor who was working on her clay culture in our class, if the client requested a certain theme or image. She looked at me distainfully and said, “I would never allow a client to influence my work.” I was like, wow, that’s arrogant.
@@down-to-earth-mystery-school to each their own. Everyone has a measure of compromise they can live with. This changed for me as I grew older. Art is my gift to do with as I choose.
@downtoearthmysteryschool. It's not necessarily arrogant for an artist to insist on doing the artwork they want rather than doing artwork that someone else wants (client or potential clients). I'm 76, have been an artist pretty much all my life (since I was 3 or 4 & could hold a pencil), & I've heard this argument repeatedly: should an artist create work that they think will appeal to others, or should the artist create work that is not aimed at pleasing others or at making money? An artist friend (in his 80s now) made a good living from an early age by selling his prints (he printed his own work, before computers), mainly prints that were similar to his paintings. He'd studied with an artist who was part of the Am. Regionalist School (Thomas Hart Benton, etc., a style popular from the late 19-teens on). This style was always fairly popular & appealed to a much wider audience than most modern styles. My friend was taught oil techniques but was also taught how to compose paintings which had popular appeal. For example, in this style of art, you were taught to include a subject of human interest if you were painting a landscape, such as including some visual reference such as a small cabin in the distance. Landscapes without such a reference to human presence were not as popular, but students weren't always told that reason but were rather told that inclusion of an object indicating human presence made a landscape more interesting, more appealing. (I was taught the same thing by my private art teacher in 6th grade---this idea was very popular.) My printmaker friend made a very good living from his early 20s on, always working in this general style. Not that he wasn't a good artist---he was. But his work always had popular appeal to the public, not just to art collectors. On the other hand, I chose not to create art that was designed to appeal to the public. Art was not, for me, something that needed to be popular. By the time I was about 19, I had made that decision. By that time I knew what I wanted to do, knew why I had to paint, & it had nothing to do with making my art popular. Since I could paint in a naturalistic style, I probably could've made a living at painting portraits and/or doing landscapes in popular style, but why should I want to do that? Painting in a style meant to be popular usually means the artist must seriously compromise how they paint & what they paint. For me, my art was always centered around my spirituality, not just as an adult but from the time I was a very young child. And my spiritual views were never aligned with an organized or popular religion, so I couldn't change my art in order to appeal to the wider public without omitting my own spirituality. (The closest I can get to explaining my spirituality briefly is to say I view the earth as alive, with every part of earthly life containing a sacredness within itself. And I don't divide nature into the animate & inanimate, the mainstream view in western culture for centuries. I've always experienced the earth, the sky, mountains & plants & animals---everything---as alive, each with its own sacredness within. A view that's closer to many traditional Native/Indian spiritual views than to views found in organized religions such as Christianity & Islam. The only other well known spiritual view similar is Zen. No deities, no hierarchies, no division of animate & inanimate. I suppose if an artist's views are similar to their society's popular views, then that artist could create paintings that appeal to the wider public without having to create works that are connected with the artist's own ways of seeing. It would not be a choice between creating art that is one's own or creating art meant to please others. Another problem with creating art meant to appeal to others: how does the artist determine what will appeal to others? I've always thought it was rather presumptuous to assume I know what will appeal to others. The problem you mentioned--an artist refusing to consider changing her art in order to include a subject someone else wanted to see---is not so simple that one can blame the artist with being arrogant. I have a few times (when I desperately needed money) agreed to do a painting for a client that centered about a particular subject, & without exception what resulted was a painting that was missing any deeper meaning. The result was, each time, a dead painting that might be very attractive to the client but that had no inner life, had no spirit. And when you do paintings for others in this way, if you do this beyond a few times at least, it has a visible effect on how you paint afterwards. Your hand learns to paint in certain ways, just as your mind does. I could never understand how someone could genuinely admire your artwork but then want you to paint in a way that they choose. This is very arrogant, in my opinion. A prospective client might think very highly of your work but instead of buying a painting you've done, they want you to do another painting that relies on their preferences---as if they are capable of composing your painting better than you are. Don't you see how this kind of request can easily be insulting to the artist? It's a fine line. Maybe we're talking about two different kinds of art---commercial art & fine art. But for an artist to try to do both often ends up making the artist lose their own view, their own way of seeing & of painting.
Adjunct faculty are taken advantage of no matter what institution they teach at, not just art schools. People have no idea how poorly adjunct professors are treated. The weird thing is, is that all departments could't run effectively w/o adjuncts.
100% couldnt agree more. The way adjuncts are treated is truly trash. Its why i walked away from all this stuff and I'm on youtube and teaching in a community art center now!
oh no! Do you feel like particular things were super detrimental (critiques, readings, teachers) ? I'm glad you're making SOME art but of course, I would love to make more videos on how you could get back to making more!
I’m getting a BA, but have also had to deal with burnout. I held it off by doing art for me. The stuff I liked. Art that wasn’t for my job or homework. And I know it’s after… but maybe doing art for yourself in a way that avoids any trauma from school can help you heal??? If you’ve already tried, I hope you find healing someday ❤
Ah yeah. I can somewhat relate. When I took an art class, I hated how “boxed” it was because the students had to follow certain criteria, and my work and their work was put up on a bulletin board just to see how everyone did. It was like comparing others’ artworks to each other’s (even though the purpose was to help others improve and see what others did to make the sphere drawings realistic). This was just from my perspective though. After art class, I don’t think I drew for a while up until a few months later when I started to experiment with my art again on my own terms. I felt much more free than I did being in that class. I still draw to this day, and I’ve started animating. Still, aside from my experience, it looks like you’ve been through a lot while going to art school. I hope that you are healing, and that when you do want to try to get back into art, maybe start small a bit? That way, you don’t stress yourself out and remember the art school. Sorry, this is just a suggestion; I’m not sure if it could work for you. But still, aside from this, I hope you are healing (or I hope you heal), and I hope you have a good day!
I have a niece who grew up making tons of art, winning art contests and stuff, who then went on to art school. After graduating, she never makes art anymore. She's over 40 so she graduated about 20 years ago, and has never used that degree. It's sad how art school seems to suck the art right out of people sometimes.
@@sharimeline3077some might call that life. The endless responsibilities of work etc etc. Very few have an easy ride and all have sxxt to deal with no matter how much money they have. If I had known what I know now I would have put in a couple hours every night. Art is a discipline and it's never easy. At least for me.😊
One thing people can do to get away from the mess that is arts business and culture is become a plein air painter. Seriously. Getting outside, away from institutions, and having a one-on-one with nature - which is a challenge in itself - is incredibly liberating and rewarding. And if you do it for yourself and do it with authenticity, it might be the most rebellious thing you can do as an artist. Worked for me.
Thank you so much for telling the truth. I have a 24 year old daughter who is an artist. She is not interested in going to college and I consider her wise. I know many people have a different opinion about this. I don’t know the solution for young people today. I’ll help my daughter while she finds her way in this world and not push for college. I know that all of what you’re saying about art school is true.
I'm so happy that you're such a supportive parent of your artist daughter and see her decisions as wise! Glad this video helped solidify your perspective!
It's sad because the college experience itself can be valuable in so many ways, but not at the price they're asking. I would suggest paying for some classes at your local community college to expand her techniques and competence (there may be other types of classes offered in your community too), but there's no need to go to art school or take on a huge loan.
@@sharimeline3077 I have actually paid for and attended with her, a couple of classes at our local art college. It was a very enriching (and fun) experience for both of us.
There were many rich kids at art college in Exeter UK, and many from Germany, Poland, Ireland and from the US. It was interesting to meet so many people interested in art. There were no business instruction, however many students had an idea of what they could do afterward, but the rich students did not have to worry about working and earning money. The age was 1975 and I had a few lectures with more famous artists. Interesting times.
I remember in high school I was upset I didn't get to go to art school in my state because it was too expensive. I got my BFA and MA for $20,000 at a state school. Every day I thank my past self for not going to an Art School.
As an aspiring art student, this video is SO important. I’ve been planning and creating a portfolio to apply to art school- RISD in particular; realizing that my dreams are most likely never going to come true is saddening. After seeing so many videos similar to this, I wonder what I’d even do aside from art. Thank you for this video, it means a lot.
I’d also like to note that my aunt went to art school. It’s been over 15 years since then, and she’s not in an art job (she works at the DMV), and is still paying off her loans to the point of almost extreme debt.
And every art teacher I’ve asked about applying has ALWAYS told me to go for a different field. My AP drawing teacher tells me that she regrets going into the art field every day.
I’m in the same situation, same prospective school. I’m not sure what my contingency should be. My other college paths (English, music) seem to have similar issues with their institutions. I wonder what we should do if those plans fall through?
@@msunflowers I have similar side-options (English and education). If we were to choose not to pursue art, going into the other fields of choice would still result in financial difficulties. For now, I’m still pursuing the arts, while also putting focus into my studies. By keeping my grades high, I’m hoping to have other options aside from art school- I.e,. STEM related fields, which are more likely to provide high-paying jobs. An option to look into would be the RISD-Brown dual-enrollment? The acceptance rate is low, though 😭
Thank you, I know a young lady studying fine arts at a university in Canada. I'll know what her world is more about, even if she is starting to figure it out. Society needs artists, you reflect our spirit as human beings, and give us an imagination that we never realized we needed. You help us grow as individuals and as a society.
There’s a great cut scene from Godfather II where Michael Corleone’s niece introduces her fiancé to her Uncle Mike to get his blessing. Nice kid, asks for her hand, and impresses Uncle Mike for showing respect like that. He asks what he’s studying in college. Fine Arts, he says. “And how are you going to support your new wife on Fine Arts?” Kid’s kind of embarrassed, but explains he comes from a wealthy family. Mike gives his blessing, but does advise him he should maybe take some business courses too. Pacino at his absolute best. Great scene and very true to life in many ways.
I sell at outdoor art festivals. I don’t make a lot, but I’ve probably earn more than most working artists. The gallery model isn’t sustainable for artists. I show my work twenty times a year to tens of thousands of people. A artist in a gallery shows every 12 to 18 months that maybe reach a thousand or two people. The way I sell now was never even spoken of during art school. Selling at an art festival was beneath them. My school closed about eight years ago. I no longer recommend art school.
THIS! So glad that you commented. I was guilty of not thinking about or taking art festivals seriously until I started watching artists like Megan Wang, littletinyegg, and Katie Mai here on youtube who were doing it. All of a sudden a light CLICKED in my head and it has been a huge success for me too! There is something so magical when people who might be afraid to walk into a gallery walk into your booth, you can connect with them as humans and geek out about why you painted a particular subject. that connection IS the magic.
@@JustinThorntonArt yes there can be a snobby element with some artists. I have exhibited in small galleries which would be lucky to get a hundred people through. I have very low energy socially so markets would be hard for me. Although it seems some local artists are territorial about it. One suggested for me to try markets. Another said there are already enough artists (including themselves).
@@soarpurpose the ones worth doing have a jury, so any territorial arts have nothing to say if you get in but they don’t. But yes these shows do require a lot of social interaction. I’m definitely not interested in socializing for a few days after one of these shows. I need time to recover.
@@JustinThorntonArt I have very low social capacity which makes things hard. Might take part in a group exhibition. Less pressure. But might still be very socially taxing. Another problem is that the markets expect cheaper paintings but I spend a long time on my paintings & don't want them to be dirt cheap (would rather shred them).
@@soarpurpose as for price you just need to find the right events. Not markets, fine art festivals. I sell works on paper for up to $2500 and paintings on large canvases can go for up to $10,000. The social thing gets easier with practice, you will just be really worn out by the end of the day. I also have a limited social battery. Make a few scripted things you can say to people so you don’t have to think about it. It makes it more manageable.
It’s insane how normalized it is to get into insane amounts of debts regardless of your major. At least with going the doctor route, it will eventually pay off due to the high salary, but artists are constantly underpaid, overworked, and constantly at risk at losing their jobs :(
Not getting intonthe PhD program I was going for was retrospectively the best thing that happened to me financially. Not art school but academia is trapped in the same echo chamber and my current career owes nothing to all the money I poured into higher ed
PREACH IT! As someone in a similar journey as you: BFA, MA, and MFA in painting...the dream was to be a professor(currently am after 160 applications over 3 years of applying post MFA graduation...yes 160 is correct)and I was told almost an identical lie in every avenue you described as a student, but I know I am lying to every studio major student to keep the numbers afloat for enrollment. I do try and encourage them to minor in something practical like marketing or graphic design, which most do thankfully. Also, another factor to why our professors who are a couple generations older than us is that the art world functioned much different in the 80s-90s when most of them "made it". Galleries were plentiful, lower tier and mid tier collectors were plentiful and opportunities cost less if nothing at all for gallery representation. We were all lied to.
I went to Parsons back in 1979, hated it, lasted one semester. (I did end up illustrating some books for major publishers which was the reason I went in the first place). So refreshing to hear your take on this, it so often feels like the art world is a toxic combo platter of high school cool cliques, corporate ass kissing, professional victim identity politics, bs artspeak, making yourself into a product...
My ambition is to create Art with a Capital A while having a interesting and sustainable job, at least in the first few years. I went to a top liberal arts college, Parsons, and took classes at an art & media training school. Turns out that my undergrad and the training courses were much useful than my Parsons degree lol
Schools like Parsons accept a lot of student with the sensitive flair but lacks concrete understanding about the nature of art, society, human condition, etc. Understanding ‘issues that matter’ requires hard work, in-depth emotional understanding, etc. ‘Suffering’, basically. Not surface level engagement.
What really bothered me about my college education is that they didn't discuss the art business. They advised me to be an illustrator and I had no clue after graduation where the money was in illustration. They actually told me to go to design studios and advertising agencies which told me they almost never used illustration. I tried to join the society of Illustrators and they told me I couldn't join because I wasn't making a living at doing illustration. I went to CSUN in California. It was a horrible state university. My professors were more concerned about helping themselves. One of my instructors got another job he wanted more during the semester. Another professor wouldn't answer my question when I asked him how you make a living as an illustrator. Most of my instructors were professional instructors and not professionals in the industry. One of my art projects from college infuriated people and I lost jobs because of it. The critiques were worthless. In regards to getting your student loans forgiven, doesn't that ONLY apply to art TEACHERS? It's interesting. I think the college forgiveness is for nurses and fire fighters when the arts are more difficult to succeed at.
Oh no! This story is SO frustrating but thank you for sharing with me. I also tried an illustration pivot (I’m a digital painter too!) and then realized most big companies hire illustration work at contract only so I had to shift gears. It sounds like your profs were clueless on how to apply your skills to the real world. Hopefully you’ve started to find your own way? I follow a lot of successful illustrators here on RUclips. Katie Mai and Fran Menses immediately come to mind. And to your point about forgiveness, yeah, precisely. It only applies to people who get a full time position at a non profit school that stays open for 10 years. I’m still really angry at the prof who told me this because he really did not have my best interests at heart in the long run. Glad I moved thousands of miles away from that man because his web was a dangerous and harmful spiral for me.
One of my friends went to CSUN for her art degree and really loved it, but that was a long time ago. Well, all I can say is that professors only know how to make money teaching. They aren't making it in the so-called art world, they're just teaching. They should have people that CAN teach students exactly that - how to make a living doing this thing they're teaching! But they don't. That's a big flaw in the system.
@@sharimeline3077 I totally agree with your statement. I think a lot of artists go into the art world because art is what they do best but what they are lacking are business skills.
If an institution no longer exists then the debt should be removed. If the institution failed then their service was clearly not to the standard they were charging.
Yes, this!! My little brother went to a music school that shut down months before he was due to graduate. There was one week of notice and teachers that didn't bail stayed to help students finish what they could for their credits. My brother was cheated out of a bachelors degree and ended up with debt and a drinking problem from the anxiety. I think he's doing better now but he never got to use those credits. He works in an auto shop now, and while he likes it it's not what he got in debt for. I hate the times we live in.
No. That's nonsense. The debt is to the party which lent you the money. If I lend you money for a car that no longer exists because it got totaled, you still owe me the money.
@@sail2temporary Clearly you don’t understand analogies. The correct analogy would be lemon laws in which the government forces car sellers to refund buyers for faulty vehicles. Not only that but if the institution doesn’t exist who is getting that money? It’s just a way to tax people who were essentially threatened with being shunned by family and society if they didn’t accept the debt. Student debt is legalized coercion.
@@nicholascollins4907 You’re confusing both car dealerships and schools with lending institutions. All of how it works is regulated by the government and no, the government is not there to help you. The government is there to help the lending institutions. If you doubt this, google “bank bailout”, read up on them and then google “student loan forgiveness”. Compare the results. Banks DO get bailed out and student loans ARE NOT forgiven. The political left in America believes that government solves problems and should be expanded. The political right in America believes that government creates problems and should be reduced. Nearly 100% of the public education system AND the higher education system is run by left leaning people. That’s easy as hell to verify. The reason is that they benefit from government spending and regulation. Those educational institutions reap those benefits at the expense of their customer base - the students. Students are the fuel that makes the engine run. Coercion is the spark that ignites the fuel and the work that the engine does is the expansion of both government and the educational system. Once you see it, you will tend to lean right for the rest of your life. At that point, they’ll call you a racist and your thoughts & opinions will be wholesale ignored, ensuring that the next generation falls for the same trap. You’re welcome……
Bless you and your video. I graduated from UCLA in '90 as a History Major, but also as a life-long artist. I worked for the first 8 years post-UCLA as an Illustrator (with aspirations of transitioning to being a Fine Artist. I did the whole New York thing a few times-flying out to show my portfolio, meeting Steven Heller at the NYT, etc. I showed in a few national publications and a few regional. But by the late '90s I was completely poor, couldn't pay my rent, and thoroughly disillusioned, finally putting away all my art materials one night, never to touch them again. And this was by someone who went to a school who's quarterly tuition, by 1990, did not exceed $300 (I know: completely unbelievable (but true)). So it is utterly UNIMAGINABLE to think that there are aspiring artists out there spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to art school. This was the major reason-even back then-why I never even considered going to an art school (as a Pasadenan, Art Center was literally visible in the distance, and Cal Arts was a mere 30 minute drive away): I couldn't fathom paying the huge amounts of money to do something that had been given to me at birth: being an artist. The skills that you guys learn at Art School are prodigious and undeniable-there are still things I know I would be better at as an Artist if I chose to go to Art School and learn from there-and yet I also knew that anything that I truly wanted to learn about my craft I could-and would-learn on my own if I chose to. So I didn't then-and I'm not sure if I do even now-see all the logic for choosing Art School-especially at the prices you'll face today. I think perhaps the single best suggestion you uttered was that all those aspiring artists out there investigate the options available to them in the way of public institutions like community colleges. MAKE the art world change by simply refusing to play their game, and start by refusing to pay these utterly ridiculous tuitions. I wish you the absolute best! I think you're doing really important work.
+1 to everything you said. Preying on the hope of young, naive students is disgraceful. I never became so jaded about art until I finished my art degree. Some people dropped out, and now I consider them wise. Not only do classes never teach you important skills for business, but also thinking about other people other than artists. I learned more about how to have empathy and understand how creativity can be applied to solving problems from business content than I ever did in art school. Also, for some reason, absolutely no one told me the link between how creativity and trauma are interlinked. I lost stability from an unstable family situation, parent death, and social ostracization right before my freshman year... I was super depressed and I couldn't draw the way I did before all that happened. Everyone just said that practicing more is the key the success, but I couldn't keep it up -- I just thought I was a poor student and a failure as an artist. I graduated without a large amount of debt, and I'm just as jaded as some of these folks who had take out all loans. Why? Because core problem is identical - which is the fact that art school doesn't prepare you for life.
Wow. Thank you for sharing. Art really does not prepare you for life and you bring up two BIG points. Art school doesn’t teach people how to communicate with an audience outside of other artists or “art world educated” people. AND art schools focus so much on hustle culture and meritocracy that it really harms students with disabilities. “Just practice more” when you’re dealing with grief and loss is bad advice. But these people got MFAs, they don’t know how to properly handle trauma, mental illness, grief, and other disabilities in the classroom and it’s a damn shame. Because often administration punishes students for being unwell. 😭
Yuppp... Went to school for art therapy after seeing the art/trauma overlaps in so many kids/friends/students/myself.. dreamed of making a positive change.. now my school went out of business this year.. got a basic teaching job but.. school politics is its own broken nightmare.. we are not rewarded financially in this society for bringing joy into the world or trying to help fix roots of problems.. putting people over policy & profit is career suicide.. and yet, i hafta keep trying 🫠
I am a graphic designer and went to community college and finished my degree at an art and design school that was purchased by a state school. Fast forward 5 years within my career, I volunteer as a designer mentoring other younger designer and I tell them not to go to art school to get into this profession. Go to a state school or try to build your career by freelancing for your community. Most of the relevant skills can be learned by working at local print shop and seeking mentors in your community. Overall these institutions do not create community, and do not set their students up for success. Most of my friends who I went to art school with do not practice art or design, and it really makes me sad. I was extremely lucky and with scholarships and saving money by working in school I graduated debt free. But now I see others who took out loans and it rips my heart out, and they can't even work professionally or enjoy it has a hobby anymore. They paid all this money to resent something that enriched their lives, and its all capitalism fault. Our system doesn't support the human drive to be creative, and bring others joy with our craft.
glad to hear you are mentoring the next generation and guiding them towards more sustainable means. I have lots of friends and former classmates who have completely stopped the practice they went to school for. It is partially classism, partially elitism, and of course late-stage capitalist expectations of individual exceptionalism. none of these things are helping us :(
@@MelMitchJackArt thank you! Just wanna look out for the young creatives. But its sad artists are expected to be writers, designers, marketers, salesmen, college educated, content creators, etc.) to be successful and then get blamed for being incompetent if they can't succeed. The bar is so high to achieve a sustainable lifestyle. No matter the creative profession the bar is high and the pay is always being threatened and devalued. Humans need artists just as much as we need any other profession is this world. Capitalism can't quantify enriching other peoples lives and because it can't we are deemed worthless. Its really sad.
I too am a graphic designer. In the eighties when I attended art college, Fine Art was all about abstract and so, as it was recognized that I could draw, the tutors on my foundation course suggested graphic design or illustration as the specialism. I too feel lucky that I've been able to work in the profession for years. I bumped into a fellow student in a bookshop some 15 years after college. She was working there and admitted she had never worked as a designer since graduating. I didn't stand out at college in any way but I was lucky getting my first job in a small design studio. I was also extremely fortunate to have a free education here in the UK. This is not the case for today's students. That also breaks my heart.
I'm so happy to hear someone say this. I didn't find my groove until after art school. I had to pursue another career to figure out what making art meant to me. Can't wait to hear more from you
Something that was very quietly insidious about my school was the way they took advantage of international students. My school was located in Canada, and had a huge focus on getting a Canadian industry job. This makes sense locationally, but they put absolutely zero focus into anything else, despite the large amount of internationals and domestic students looking to work for foreign studios. With that, they also refused to acknowledge the very real barrier to getting a Canadian job-- most studios will only hire domestic workers for tax purposes. The result was that during 3rd year mandatory internships, as well as during the hunt for jobs in 4th year, most international students were left out to dry without warning-- forced to job hunt with no aid in a market that did not want them, despite paying 2 to 3 times the price of domestic tuition (in my year this was for 0 studio access and zoom classes lol). Those who did find work either found it remotely from their home country through their own efforts, or took whatever they could in Canada, which was often low paying if not outright unpaid altogether. It makes me sick thinking about all the alumni who worked so hard to make a name for themselves landing at foreign studios like Pixar and Disney, with 0 help from (and likely in-spite of) these schools, who are then paraded as examples of why you should let their alma mater take advantage of you. Horrible, broken industry.
oh my god, thank you for sharing but this sounds so terrible! i take it your 4th year was fully remote? Really unfortunate they were opting out of acknowledging the needs you were expressing. this is awful!
Universities in Canada love to talk about their ethics and ideals, but the truth is that they care more about making money than about anything else. I taught English as a Sessional for several years and was shocked by how many foreign students were in my classes who could barely read or understand the language. Why were they there? Because the universities wanted their high tuition payments and didn't care how lonely and miserable and isolated these students often were. It was disgusting. But attend any university event and some well-paid administrator will make a land acknowledgement with a big look of fake compassion on his/her face. Massive hypocrisy.
I was about to enroll to VFS and NYFA after I graduated on Film and Television, but I felt disappointed due to the high costs and the requirements to get a "scholarship" when in reality is a simple loan. Besides that, I felt regret to enroll a postgraduate in Screenwriting on the same college, only for a single semester while the other wasn't full enough to take the classes. Instead, I went to a workshop in documentary filmmaking and read some books about screenwriting, which I learned more.
Also, healthcare is broken in the same way. Working as a nurse and wanting out I take art classes on weekends at college in my city. They have classes for community that are not too expensive for me.
oh man healthcare is so broken. I have a chronic illness and noone understands it.... at all. Plus after the way the pandemic ran roughshod over y'all... the burnout and anger must be so real.
I did the opposite. I got an art degree at a state school, saw my friends get an mfa and struggle. I decided to become an RN so I could afford to be an artist. 😅
The Italian Renaissance was over 1500 years ago. That is the time period I dreamed of living in as an artist. Imagine the regard, respect and prestige to be an artist then. Keep it real. Keep it internal you terrific young artist.
As someone who couldnt afford to go to an art college, I feel like the biggest profit you could get from attending is making connections. I've worked on my craft enough for it to be praised and all, but it is just so hard to get a hand in the industry without previous networking. and to think that those networking opportunities are not only hand-picked but also influenced by favoritism and classism is just frustrating. boo
I had some wonderful teachers at my community college, including one who hooked me up with her old boss at a design studio, which gave me real life work experience. i continued my education at an over priced art school. Honestly, I learned so much more from the cc instructors and felt they were truly interested in helping me get somewhere with my art. The art school was an unnecessary waste of money
The 'connections' are still out of most art students reach. Possibly in the very tops schools, but I remember a couple of lines from Joni Mitchell's A Free Man In Paris:: "There was nobody calling me up for favors; And no one's future to decide." She is referring to the music industry of course but a lot of musicians, including Joni, attended art school. But you are correct; the whole system is engineered for competition and grace and favor at the very top.
I wish this was a video I could show my mom when I had told her that I didn't want to go to college. I have my BFA in digital arts and animation. Its currently on the wall of my apartment collecting dust.
I made this to try and save future students from my fate! I dont hate everything about my art school experience but ive become increasingly bitter the further out i get. Hope you are finding ways to be creative with that degree even if its just for yourself or in your hobbies to bring joy to your life!
ah fuck. i'm preparing to apply to digital art/animation programs, because not going to college isn't an option and it's the only thing that doesn't make me depressed to think about doing for the rest of my life. is it actually not worth it? i want to do things like character design or storyboarding.
@@firelordoregano5632I have a BFA in animation and I also focus on more of the concept art side rather than technical aspects. And I am in the same situation that my diploma is just collecting dust, and I struggle to find any degree related job. Unfortunately the competition for storyboard/concept art is wild, and if I were to give advice to someone willing to go for animation - better focus on technical skills ie coding, rigging, simulations, vfx- specialist in these areas are both higher in demand and better paid. Overall I kinda regret that my curriculum barely included anything coding related, bc now I have to learn it on my own and being able to code is a great skill
@@firelordoregano5632 you could make a living out of it, but you're gonna need energy and resources (money, mental health, support system, emotional intelligence) for that so you're gonna have to honestly ask yourself how much drive, energy and Varied Resources (tm) you already have on your own without college. If the answer is "not much lmao", dw you can try the approach other people are trying: Apply to a college that lets you get a career in a job that pays well enough to allow yourself to learn animation self-taught (and maybe get experience in how to get clients), get a "regular day job" which, again, is what a TON of artists do so nothing strange there, it's just you taking a shortcut to a better paid day-job, and then use that salary to fund your way through storyboarding (i recommend storyboarding first because it's more possible you'll find someone willing to hire you since character design is saturated, however, do also keep in mind storyboard artists are getting more and more exploited as years go by). College will charge you an obscene amount of money for a few classes where the teacher may not even know what they're doing, but online you will find realized artists from movie studios and production houses selling courses on what they learned to do for cheaper, or sometimes for free, AND you get to support them directly. That way you can try and build a portfolio to test the waters without risking your income, your housing, or a bad move against the IRS (tax systems in several countries often do not offer protections to freelance workers). It'll take a couple years and mayhaps a bit of moving in and out of big cities to establish yourself in the art world but you'll eventually land a safer job with less precariousness and debt than if you went to animation college asap with half energy, full debt, and negative motivation. I am NOT saying this to suck all motivation out of you. I'm just saying that, among people who went to an art college or pursued an animation degree as their first or only option, there is DEFINITELY a pattern and it's not painting a pretty picture, but fortunately there are ways to avoid it.
I’m an aerospace engineer, not at all in the art world. You painted a very clear picture (pun intended) of the problems with art schools. More importantly, you seem to have a very solid and viable solutions. You should build an art school the way it should be: affordable and offering practical skills to live from the craft they teach.
honestly, this is the first vid i see talking about art school where the problems and sollutions aren't talked about vaguelly and there's an actual person that can empathise. I'm tired of my professors making bank while abusing their teaching positions and the toxic favoritism in my university where sex sells (quite literally). I'm tired of how i'm not here to get better but to i honestly don't even know, perfecting my skill is something i have to do in my free time but simultaniously not having time to bc i have to make a bunch of themed drawings limited to just papes and nothing else. It's such a waste of time
hey thank you for this! I will admit part of why i drank the kool aid so long is that i benefited from that toxic favoritism. I had a prof take me under his wing and mentor me long after graduation. That relationship was so toxic and i talk about that struggle in my video about quitting art... Those people dont really have it better, they just are subjected to more delusion. I shared this with others but you can 1, walk away and choose a more affordable degree elsewhere... i made this vid during the summer on purpose. and 2, demand change by organizing with your classmates. Y'all have more power as a collective than you do as individuals. In business terms, you are paying for a service that you are unsatisfied with.
@@MelMitchJackArt And you aren't the first nor the last subject of that particular professor's "toxic favoritism" I guarantee it. Professors that do this stuff are notorious and they are everywhere in art schools. If I could give my best advice to someone entering art school it would be to avoid any type of friendship with a professor. Thing is, it's those very friendships that land people in plumb prestige situations. I would say to avoid art school altogether and maybe attend some sort of atelier and then take business and marketing at a community college if you want to be a working artist. You won't land the prestige or gallery gigs but you will be able to make a living.
So appreciate your well-supported POV on status/issues of traditional formal art education. A bit older than some of your viewers i suspect, I was encouraged to NOT pursue art education at the University level because I "wouldn't be able to pay the bills" upon graduation. This was 1977! Retired now for Special Educational and running a non profit i am finally returning to my art (mixed media painting and writing). So many fabulously talented folks on Patreon and You Tube. Current technology, techniques and skills right at your fingertips and Kelsey Rodriguez. And you. Keep encouraging beauty and happiness.
I love this share! Glad you have found your way back to art. Kelsey is a good friend! Both of us will keep encouraging beauty and happiness 💕 You keep making as well! Persistently bloom! :)
Its so crazy to hear, I'm at a college in philly in an art program and I had friends that went to UArts and it was crazy hearing how it just shut it's doors so suddently.
as someone who didnt go to art school, and opted to practice + learn + sell work on my own, this video rules. you're so real. thank you for speaking on how broken these institutions are. we need a new art world that is less intersectional with the 1% - and more intersectional with the real world everyone else lives in.
One of the key things I've grown to understand with time(I graduated into the 2008 recession with an econ degree - then immediately found work in video games, which sent me on an arts trajectory) is that the basis of our economy is political because of that convergence between "having the gold" and "making the rules" - and therefore most of the things you can be funded for, including the culture, will be downstream of some elite interest, speculative bubble, government subsidy, tax benefit, etc. If there isn't *continual reinvestment* in a field, employment in it naturally trends downwards to a minimum of sustainability - a niche that keeps the torch lit, but nothing more. So the overall tone of culture turns on the election cycle, because that sets the policy and investment climate. Right now borrowing is curbed on a national scale by high federal interest rates, and therefore all of the industries went on layoff sprees. That also affects the colleges since they are usually some mix of leveraged up(and vulnerable to losing their own investments) and tied down by their own donors(who will ask for a building or something). The actual skills have only been a small factor: if being technically adept is useful towards someone's empire, they employ you. This has led to a climate in places like the tech industry where the prevailing entry-level employment strategy is to always hop on the next trending buzzword and announce that you are an expert in it - even if you aren't. If it's new, you can claim the credentials without much pushback. The advantage of arts skills in this sense is that they are relatively enduring: shape and form are a more universal language than English, and far more durable than any computer language. However, it's also more of a commodity skillset for the same reasons: for most tasks, people don't need to hire the 99%th percentile draftsman if an 80% one is available and cheaper. And as we've turned towards using more technology, we keep carving away chunks of the lower percentiles. That alone makes a strong case against arts as a four-year degree, since that would mean you expect a moonshot kind of career trajectory, versus a sustaining one.
1) private equity firms pillaged Art Institute and Ex'pression. 2) the same mechanism that caused the housing crisis is causing the student loan crisis.
The Debt Collective for sure gives me hope in terms of strategies out, but it really is just letting speculation in the private sector run rampant into delusion
It’s so important to make this economic link. Art school tuition wasn’t always a risky decision, but private equity shenanigans have made our country desperate and poor.
And the private equity investors are pillaging elsewhere. They dealt the death blows to newspapering and radio and are even now bilking every single the medical field - even veterinary medicine. They work off the same script wherever they launch their bust outs.
Love your honesty, openness and your brains girl! This is why after studying Graphic Design and not fine arts (parents forced me) I decided getting into debt to study art, was not going to be my path. My parents did not wanted me to succeed in anything, not marry, not anything, less be whom I was born to be: an artist. So, they’re out, I did take art classes at different places, as a guest student, workshops, etc. but with Graphic Design studies, even though I did not like it, I had a good base, and they gave us an obligatory course about finances, it was HARD, even for students in finances, but it was GOLD, I rudimentary understood what it means to sell, to open a business, budgeting, etc. So, I’m so happy I did not invest in air, bc I already had to battle at home fir the right to have a life and be someone, so, I chose by battles as wisely as I could and thank God! I WON 😍💪🎨❤️🍀🕊️🙏
I am a self-taught graphic designer. What saved me in this career was the fact that I had previously worked in sales and marketing-without that knowledge I would have struggled. All education should be free.
These days, with RUclips tutorials and so many learning sources, I can’t see why you would pay almost $100,000 to go to school to learn the Adobe suite If you’re a photographer, you don’t need to go to school to learn how to be a photographer you go out and take pictures and you put yourself in situations. Will you have to learn How to compose a good photo. And yes, I have a degree in industrial design and I was lucky enough to work for a company who paid 100% of my MBA degree
Wow! You described my art school experience so perfectly. The realization of classism around you, the way theee professors would discourage and talk down to anyone who needed to work, the way they didnt teach how to use your skills to make money, and having to unlearn many things. I am shocked that my experience actually ended up being so common. I felt very lonely and out of place with my peers who in hind sight were much more well off.
The professor made money from teaching, they didn’t live off their art but encourage their students to do so, without telling them how, because the professors don’t know.
Thank you for being 100% transparent. Going the path of the creative though is uncertain. That’s the price. Art is largely speculative and opinion based. That’s why it’s important to find something you can do to pay the bills and do art on the side. Relationships are key to success with art.
Great video. I went to Columbia Chicago, which I know is not a prestigious art school-but still a bit pricy! They are in massive debt and cutting departments left and right. I feel like they’re going to close soon. It’s disappointing to see, but I came to a realization early on that if I wanted a creative job it would never be making art. This is why I went into marketing and advertising, and that can feel like a sell out but frankly it’s put me in a position to fully understand how to market myself in freelance and side jobs. I think advertising classes are so helpful for any artist and I wish art schools put emphasis on marketing. I think everyone is playing the social media content game and it’s just competitive and full of clutter, we need to teach artists the skills to build community and define what that means to them.
Columbia! That's where my dad went (for TV) Sad to see they are struggling too. Marketing and advertising are important, but mostly for artists its about finding that community and our audience in a way that feels authentic (rather than the short form content slot machine)
@@jordenjay1106 people "play the social media game" as it costs less than ads. Which some platforms now require to have stuff seen. To then not sell anything. Creative pursuits are worthwhile but the reality is, few actually make a living from it. This includes books, visual arts, photography etc.
Yup I went to Columbia College Chicago some years back. Big regret. I was an illustration major and game art minor. They were so unorganized. Game art didn't have drawing classes, Illustration didn't have anything dealing with character design. Just terrible.
Thank you for this. I was horrified to learn what people are paying for art school. Your points about the invisible classism in the art world are well-made, too. I have been an artist my whole life, living off the sale of my artwork. About the time you went to art school, I took on my one and only student/apprentice. He was 18. I promised his parents that I would get him into at least one gallery after a year with me. We succeeded. Today, he is on the verge of becoming a full-time Painter, with sales as his sole income. One point I think worth your exploration is the fact that most art schools promote art reflective of today’s art world, by which I mean art that is only about art, not life. Art that is cold, elitist, inpenetrable. I gave my apprentice a few simple tips that helped him succeed; Make at least some art each day that is meant to sell, that is well-crafted, beautiful in the Keatsian sense, that you are happy to make, and that will further your knowledge of your craft. The sales of this art will buy you the time to make art that pushes the envelope. Thanks again for a revelatory video.
I've always felt a really deep sadness that I couldn't go to art school, in part because of my disability, and in part because of financial constraints. This video has really opened my eyes about what land mines I dodged, and I feel really comforted. You've inspired me to find ways to celebrate my art and creativity without higher education 💖
I really regret going to art school man. My animation program didnt even have an animation professor for like a year of my BFA. They had to pull in people from other programs to teach the 3D class so they were learning alongside us, which isn't really what you want when learning something new! We never had animation classes focused on any particular kind of animation, and we never even learned to storyboard. I appreciate how hard my professors worked, but the department was so poorly focused and financed. Most of my memories of college are taking classes that had nothing to do with animation and feeling overjoyed when id get ONE in a semester. Many of the programs got cut and professors retired or left. And oh my god that was such a good point near the end about construction projects!! My college was CONSTANTLY doing construction projects that lasted years and never seemed to be done. Fences everywhere blocking off walkways but no one ever working behind them.
@@MelMitchJackArt it was a joint animation/illustration bfa (the two were one degree), so they had the illustration professor teach animation and they pulled a film professor in to veeeeery quickly learn 3D. i felt bad cause sometimes we had questions he had no idea the answers to 😭 it was real scrappy, but the profs did their best and imo went above and beyond their pay grade trying to help us 🙏
@@NonstopFFriday yeah its my bad for not looking into the future to see that the animation professor was going to leave my junior year. ill consider that next time 😔
LOL omg I can relate. We had a class that focused on web design and our prof was so old he never designed websites in his prior jobs, had no idea what he was doing.
One of my favorite things you touched on was how colleges can sometimes help applied art majors get jobs in their fields, but in a lot of cases colleges actively kneecap students. At one of my last jobs I was a creative director. I went to the art college I attended back in 2010 to try and set up paid internships for students. We were offering $18hr in Milwaukee (that's actually very good here), and we wanted young talent we could mold into how we do things. I was ghosted by the schools administration, and when I finally set up a meeting, they said "sure we'll do it" and then continued to ignore my contacts. When I went to this school in 2010, it was $40k a year. The students should riot.
Ur prof giving you a low grade for working while in school is so unhinges, wowwwww. Great vid, thanks for making it, currently doing an MFA in Canada so costs aren’t so bad but very eye opening being in the Institution
I’m genuinely sorry you had to endure so much over the years. However I am so happy to see your transformation. You have become a better person, and artist, and did it all by yourself.
I totally agree. 45 year old artist, with a training that angles towards fine art gallery stuff and working full time in finance to get loans forgiven. Think the problem is even bigger though. The pace and cost of everything, a regular non artist is a slave to debt and survival. It's a machine that ate up it's resources.
yes. Capitalism eats itself. Everything, Art , real estate, sports, health care EVERYTHING is hyper inflated and overexposed. GREED. And now ai which is making any untrained person an “artist” , or filmmaker or musician overnight by simple prompts.
I found out early that being an artist with a complementary day job was most empowering. I freelanced (photography) straight out of high school and got day jobs. One job led to a new job as a printer and later as a Print Manager. I made enough money to pay rent and bills and save. Later, I worked the day Job, freelanced and went to college part time. Year one was out of pocket (City College) after that I scored a full scholarship for my 2 year degree (Business and Marketing) and a 4 year degree (Marketing and Visual Communications). I've been an artist with a day job for many years. Remote contract Web design and content creation work is now the day job and I do commissioned digital art and photography on the side. Debt for me is scary, It's robs you of your freedom. Everyone pushes teens and 20 somethings to college immediately not many people (parents, etc.) pay the freight. I wasn't having it, I don't believe any debt is good debt. If you can avoid debt, please do.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm blown away by the response to this video & have deep gratitude for everyone who responded. But I simply cannot respond to each of you anymore so here are some OTHER ways to connect!
If you resonated with a lot of what is in this video, you'd probably love to do a retreat with me and you can learn all about those here: melmitchelljackson.com/book-a-retreat
If you're interested in community, I've got a Persistent Bloom discord server over here: discord.gg/8MCVYUkQQZ
And I have an email newsletter/membership over on the platform Substack! melmitchelljackson.substack.com which is free to join or you can subscribe for monthly exclusive content and creative prompts.
⭐ - Mel
It's a damn good video. I received my BFA in Graphic Design from KU in 2017. I know a bunch of folks who went to the KC Art Institute and JCCC. I was always envious of coworkers who got degrees at JCCC (3 miles from where I grew up). If I could go back, I would have gotten my degree there and saved some major dough.
Your advice is spot on what I would tell anyone looking to get a BFA in Art. You rock!
I can understand what “collective Power” would mean to coop galleries, creativity, and encouraging each other. But I cannot quite understand how that will meaningfully impact the market and buyer ceilings for fine or handmade arts and crafts, domestic or otherwise.
Your discord link doesn’t work
Your discord link has expired
@@andreasfort1599just fixed it!
Most artists (including myself) don't make a living from it. Why bother with the massive expensive art school when can learn art skills without that huge expense?
totally fair. I think that people like me were influenced by adults who wanted to see us find success, and to them, there would be huge limits for us without a degree, no matter what that degree was. But to the highschoolers I teach now, I am much more willing to speak frankly and with caution.
@@MelMitchJackArt I have a science degree I don't use. When I studied though was before the days of getting into massive debt just to study.
@@MelMitchJackArt it is worthwhile having some small group tuition from various artists. For example, I did evening classes & oils decades ago & some of those skills were transferable to acrylics which I specialise in.
Different teachers have various things to offer. Now all that info is conveniently on platforms like this.
I was put off art at school as the teacher was too critical & "fixed" the students' art. I picked up art again as an adult & learned different things from different artists who also did small group classes or camps.
@@soarpurpose i love that you had great experiences with evening courses and through other platforms. I teach in community art centers, at a local farm in their event space, and online -- basically anywhere that will let me use the space -- and its so freeing. i love offering affordable classes and building lasting relationships with students.
@@MelMitchJackArt I think most fulltime artists either teach and/or do commissions. I don't have social capacity to teach in person (even though ironically I have a teaching qualifications). I do like sharing bits & pieces from what I've learned, which people have said has helped them.
As a retired private college financial administrator, I offer several observations:
1. Most colleges and universities are in the business of overcharging students. In other words, they are not trying to keep the cost of a college education down, but they are instead trying to figure out how to maximize their return on each student. Financial aid is really a process of trying to load as much debt onto students as possible while raising tuitions as rapidly as possible.
2. Government loans are not helping. They have the simple effect of subsidizing the goals of the college or university. If the government gives x in loans, the institution raises its rates by, you guessed it, x.
3. The single most pervasive problem in college administration is the balooning cost of administration. Professors are clamoring for administrative roles, and often roles are created out of whole cloth to be able to line the pockets of specific professors. While even tenured professor salaries are not particularly high, the actual annual income of those professors, all in, is due to those add-ons--chair person of the department, made up titles, etc.
4. Every prospective student that comes in the door is a mark. If the institution manages to get that student to attend, the student serves to prop up the feeding frenzy that is higher ed.
5. PhDs in all fields are severely over-produced. Why, then, are there not pressures to lower the cost of professors? First of all, there are such pressures: Adjunct professors are paid enough to pay for rent and food, that is all. Adjuncts are the dregs, the benchers, the non-anointed ones. Second, the pressure is held off by imposing very high bars for the selection of new tenure track professors. With high barriers to entry into professorships, the professors on the inside of the barrier are running an ologopoly or monopoly, and can hike their own compensation.
6. Do educational institutions care that the birth rate fell and the end is nigh? No, not at all. They are far too busy on the merry go round, lining their own pockets, to plan for downsizing. Most of the administrative types are far too drunk on money and prestige to even care.
Thank you
Man, this is a very in-depth explanation that also managed to be an entertaining read. Thank you.
WOW. thank you so much for sharing all of this context about what is happening below the surface of the water
I agree 100%. Speaking of titles and do-nothing jobs: I'm from Wyoming, I joined the Navy for the college money, did a 6 year enlistment, and attended a U in Utah (it was not BYU). Since I was using my GI Bill to pay for college, I went to the U's veteran's assistance office. They get so few people going through there that when I showed up, I made the lady jump in surprise because she's so used to going days/weeks/months without anybody seeking services. I figured out pretty quick that it's a do-nothing job that they throw to old ladies as a twilight soon-to-retire "job". She had no idea how to do anything, that was a system that I had to figure out and navigate myself.
The only military people that come through that place are ROTC that haven't served active-duty yet and have their own administration set up for their needs. Veterans are as rare as hen's teeth in that place, I never encountered another veteran in 5 years there (in an engineering program that started with about 200 people and pared down to 40 by graduation). If you tell anybody that you served overseas, they think you were out on a mormon mission. (I quickly nicknamed that place "BYU-wannabe".) Since I had just gotten out of the Navy, I luckily had some good practice dealing with and navigating a bureaucracy. At the ole U, there were plenty of those kind of do-nothing jobs, people just sitting behind a desk drinking coffee, playing solitaire on their computer, listening to podcasts, etc.
Exhibit A - Claudine Gay, who despite having to resign in disgrace as Harvard’s president, still maintains her tenured position and will make plenty of money despite being an academic fraud.
I went to a fine art school, but now work in illustration. When I was going to school, the school completely villainized illustrators and illustrative art styles as "selling out" and not "real" art. I later started getting work in illustration and am now lucky enough to make a living doing illustration in a niche field that has so far been untouched by AI and may never be affected by it. I'm incredibly lucky and grateful. I just think that if my school didn't brainwash me into believing that illustration or the decorative arts were "less than" then I could have gotten into this field much sooner and made a lot more money than I have now. Instead I toiled away for years trying to break into "fine art" which I learned later was bogus anyway, like you said.
Almost all my favorite living artists are book illustrators, tarot artists, and board game artists. Media illustration is where most of the classically beautiful art is, that I've seen.
@@akirathedog777 Okay but can you find me any person who asked?
@lifeisadrag7705 that thing is just a rage bait bot, don't bother feeding it
I was once told if you are a great and talented artist but bad at business and marketing, you will fail, but if you are a mediocre artist but an amazing business and marketing person, you will succeed. I have seen this over and over again in the business of art.
I see it again and again. It's so extremely true.
See for example the life and times of the late Thomas Kinkade.
this is sadly a very big truth.
I'm being optimistic: art is a talent and business is a skill which can be acquired by any artist.
Who are you creating for? You or them. Believe in yourself.
These tuition costs nowadays is complete crackpipe
its a runaway train!!!
And I smoked it! lol (crying in the cold shower)
:( I wanted to go, I got into art school... but 9k a semester ever after scholarships (mind you 9k is just 4 classes) not including housing, food, etc.
but i also want to add that i did end up getting an associates in arts, paid out of pocket. Now I am just practicing and trying to build a brand!
@@MelMitchJackArt ai is coming for our job
Comparing the "legitimate" art career path to someone trying to pitch an MLM is so on point, it hurts. Amazing video!
for all you art students right now in art college: YOUR GRADES ABSOLUTELY DO NOT MATTER. YOUR PORTFOLIO WILL BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT GETS YOU A JOB.
for CalArts and Cooper Union you have to have a professional level portfolio to even get accepted
Grades mattered a fuckin' lot at my school (Art Institute). If your grade was 69 or lower then you'd have to retake the class (which meant more loans)
I got a scholarship to Art Center College of Design because of my high school grades and had to maintain standing on the Deans List to keep it. So grades can matter.
@@Bluetree0502 I believe the comment about grades not mattering was referring to the job market. I've hired many graphic designers over the course of my career, and never once asked about grades - it's all about the portfolio, and the how and why design solutions were achieved.
Just get a damn degree... That's what matters. Even the cheapest, low hanging fruit of a degree will bear the biggest rewards and opportunities - as opposed to NOT having one.
"why do colleges keep investing in over-the-top construction projects?" because it's alllll speculative real estate investment, baby! there's very little more profitable than real estate - education certainly isn't more profitable than it! your tuition is just their starting capital.
@@AllisonPerryart colleges & universities are businesses.
hehe i love this comment. and HATE THAT ITS TRUE. but yes. they are speculative real estate, baby! The more i got to know how a lot of galleries operate as loss leaders for larger real estate businesses the more i realized i was trapped in a tax dodging scheme for the owning class.
Damnnnnnnnnn
Except not good dorms🙃 look at Boston and Cambridge and NYC and what their housing system is like for prestigious universities
@@mggardiner4066facts. I went to BU, and spent my junior year in a rodent-infested dorm that hadn’t been renovated since the 70s. meanwhile, brand new center for computing and data sciences with very few usable student spaces…
This is not only for artist, this is for Architects, Graphic, Industrial/Product, Fashion, interior designers, musicians and music producers... even for IT people and engineers who want to be independent, etc.
Dancers as well
Yeah, well I always say, never studying ANYTHING that has a small demand for. Art, basket weaving, social science, and other subjects that either are not in demand, or pay very little is a waste of time.
@@JohnBowl14690 Problem is, when you need one of those services and no one knows how to do them what do you do? In order for knowledge to be passed on people have to keep it alive otherwise it becomes forgotten. The problem isn't willingness to learn, but the gatekeeping keeping the knowledge at a premium to keep people out.
@@TheMasterOfShadows - What specific service are you talking about?
@@JohnBowl14690 Dude, plumbing, carpenters, there are lists of jobs people are not learning and the masters of the trades are all retiring due to health issues or aging out. Majority of able body young adults went into tech, or soft easy carriers because they know those trades kill your body and don't rewards you for the wear and tear on your body. This I only do it for the cash mentality leads to everyone earning the same wage across the board. The equality of outcome.
I wish getting in debt at 18 was illegal
At this rate, you'll be paying a mortgage on your groceries.
@@davidlafleche1142I have heard rumors that Walmart might start using buy now pay later on groceries so you might not even be wrong
@joametteIs that because of legal reasons or because of insurance doesn't trust under 25 y/o
Use your head and think for yourself instead of expecting the government to do it for you
@@Galahad993 The government doesn't tell us these things to begin with so how would they fucking know to begin with? The education system doesn't teach them shit about debt in highschool. They don't teach us about taxes. They don't teach us how to be smart with our money. That should be a responsibility of the education system, a system run by, guess what, the government. Not to mention not everyone has parents that know this type of shit so they can't blame the parents either.
Paying this and not even GUARANTEEING a job after school is so dystopian. I truly dont understand why I didn’t go to a community college for school. I def drank the kool aid
I went to community college, learned a lot but the degree has yet to earn me more than $25/hr which is not enough to live alone on a studio in my state 🙃
Tbh I want to a community college but even I havtn managed to make my degree work. Places don’t wanna give me the 5 years experience I need to use it☠️
the job market right now is a dumpster fire! but also, its ok we both drank it, now were figuring out other options!
good thing i decided to go to community college and not a university. it seems like i made a good choice even tho i have to accept not going to my dream uni after :/
@@HotCocoRockkah Now imagine if you had gone to art school and your student loan payments were much higher, and you still only made $25 an hour. You did the better thing.
- And these schools don’t explain to you there are basically no jobs for your degree that pay anything livable. Complete disservice.
It should be obvious.
@@Afrez1189it is obvious. But every student in the creative arts thinks they are going to be the one who makes it.
@elipotter369 yeah I get that... but it is basic risk management.
The odds of being financially successful are ifintesimally small.
Combine that w compounding interest rates AND the idea you lose out on other skills and experiences you could be building during that time.
So... ppl need to think about mitigating risk of not being successful. Plenty of ways to do that.
Be thoughtful. Make good decisions... sucks to suck.
@@Afrez1189 - Adult minds think of those things. But an 18 yr old high school student making college decisions does not. Their brain isn’t even finished developing. The parent is either ill informed or doesn’t want to talk the kid out of their blind ambition. I get it, it’s a tough situation all around. Who wants to be the parent who wouldn’t let their kid follow their passion.
@67NewEngland I'm straight up refusing to fund my daughter's art nonsense post highschool.
She can do what she wants... but I'm not participating in it.
Too expensive when they teach you that you shouldn’t even want to make a living from your art, because that’s so bourgeois
YEEEEP. I think its hard because kids going to these schools are so malleable and often felt like misfits or were bullied earlier in life. They just want to make their teachers (who function like heroes to them) impressed or happy with their choices. I was under the mentorship of a former professor that ended up taking a very dark turn. But all i ever wanted was to try and be good enough in his eyes. I made a lot of choices that looking back now were egregious class warfare against myself because i just wanted to fit in.
@@MelMitchJackArt me at 33 back in art school again for the second time, wanting to impress my instructor to feel like I belong. A grown man. Me. Realized nobody gaf and I'm not sure I want to make art a career.
@@jonathanthompson592 it’s okay to leave and come back. I definitely did, I also realized that I stopped trying to impress certain people when their life was not one that I wanted for myself.
Exactly. This is the mindset that is killing art schools. They are SO against entrepreneurship while simultaneously taking all your money! 😂
Now with the internet available, they can no longer compete.
Yes, Marxism has ruined every aspect of Higher Learning by simultaneously making students debt slaves while making students completely ignorant and opposed to finding any ways not to be a debt slave. Leftism is Cultural Cancer the world over. Just try to think of the most interesting, or impressive works of "Socialist" art, music, sculpture, architecture, etc........See, there are none. Get woke. Go broke........Every. Single. Time.
I’m a self taught artist and always love wanting to go to art school, but it was way too expensive but now I just click on RUclips and there’s some great instructors and great artist that I could learn from and I just want to say thank you so much for your videos. You’re awesome.
Aw that's awesome! I appreciate your support! RUclips is an amazing place for learning art nowadays... its pretty incredible!
@@G5020-gb5zq youtube is an awesome resource for beginner & experienced artists. I don't put my tips behind pay walls as I see art as a therapeutic endeavour & should be made accessible to anyone, including those on low incomes.
Art school was fun. But they literally said out loud that the only way to make a living was with teaching. Which required more school. But then that changed, and now teaching full time isn’t a thing. The only way it makes sense to go to art school is to be born rich. Be born rich or you simply won’t be able to get along in art school.
@@Accountdeactivated_1986 It is true they said teaching or just "moving to New York" but luckily i came from an art youth program for under-resourced communities. the friends i made there i STILL have and they helped me realized teaching didnt have to happen at higher ed and my existing degree was plenty. its how i make a living still!
@@G5020-gb5zq agreed- there are fantastic online teachers and discourse! I am “returning to painting” after 20 years, and wanted to go back to school to fill in a bunch of holes in my art education from the later ‘80s (where expressionism was KINGQUEENTHEWHOLEROYALFAMILY)…
I watch RUclips videos and have recently taken a year long course with a favorite painting teacher(with Ian Roberts -a fantastic teacher)- entirely online, for a tiny fraction of what a year back in art school would have set me back.
Yes, great conversation, I look forward to the revolution… a la salon de refusé! We are creatives, creating
I went to art school AND later, Financial Planning school. PLEASE DO NOT EVER BORROW MONEY TO PAY FOR SCHOOL UNLESS THAT LOAN IS FEDERALLY SUBSIDIZED.
Even then, they can’t be discharged in bankruptcy and can ruin people financially.
@@recynd77 You are right. Even subsidized can be hard to repay, but the private loans have no special repayment options such as Income-based and Income-contingent. Also, subsidized loans can be forgiven, as we have seen.
For these reasons I opted not to pursue art school, rather I started working regular jobs and using that to collect professional grade art materials, paints brushes and linen canvas. While along the way studying from books and video on how to paint and draw realism. I haven’t reached commercial success but I’m very happy with my work and the smiles I’ve gotten from others.
I read art school (and Ivy league schools) is for networking, not talent teaching, not even skill.
@@Skitdora2010well, that’s not true. My school was basically a boot camp and professors deliberately weeded out the ones who couldn’t hack it.
Thank you for your insight. I'm a Graphic Designer based in Los Angeles. In 2009, I couldn't attend Cal Arts due to financial constraints, so I chose to study at CSULA, graduating with under $10,000 in debt. Today, I'm a Graphic Designer in the fashion industry. I once believed that missing out on the art school experience was a setback, but I've since realized it wasn't necessary for my success. Your perspective reinforces that one doesn't need to attend an expensive art school to thrive in this field. Thank you for that reassurance.
This was years ago, but I was able to land a great job as a graphic artist with an Associates in Graphic Arts degree.
I'm a prof at a Cal State school in an allied healthcare discipline. My students spend a small fraction of what they would pay at USC and are equally well prepared to enter the work place. I've taught back east too and the Cal State schools are one of the remaining affordable university systems. BTW, in a previous life, I went to art school at a UC in the early 80s and paid about $500 a year for tuition. My understanding is that tuitions have gone up in a lot of the state university systems because we don't devote nearly as much tax dollars to systems. So, slowly, over time, tuitions crept up...
I'm so hyped. I got my first bachelor's degree in art from an expensive private (non-art) university. While I graduated and ended up starting my own photography business in LA then worked as a graphic designer-engineer, the price was nowhere near worth it compared to a State school at the end of the day (I originally started at SDSU). I'm starting a second bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineering this fall at CSULA and I'm really impressed at the affordability and what is available in the engineering department. I feel like the CSU's do a really good job at preparing you for getting a job and I was disappointed that I no longer had the resources that SDSU had once I transferred to the small private school. & I recently saw a comment on reddit where someone who was a hiring manager stated that some of the best hires have come from CSULA over other top performing engineering schools. The vibe I've been getting from CSULA already has been really unique compared to my experience at other schools. They really seem to be operating with intent and a focus on collaboration, hands-on experience, and community. I haven't gotten to see much of the Art department at CSULA but from what I've seen it looks really nice & they offer wayyyy more than what was available at the private school I went to!
Great video that speaks volumes, thank you! I went to art school in the 80's ( SAIC & Pratt ) and it wasn't nearly as expensive as the numbers you're quoting today. The business part of art was never taught in school but I wish they did. We all had desires of making a living in art but were aware of the slim chance that would ever happen. Art education was about enriching our lives as creative people, not business.
College in general is too expensive...
100% Agreed. Letting college costs be up to the private sector is seriously one of the WORST neoliberal policies. Its a runaway train bound to crash.
Community colleges are still affordable
@@sacdigitaldesignwebso true. especially using federal aid and there are a gazillion scholarships that exist. it just takes time to find them and apply
I would love to see more conversation about this. Student debt is outrageous, but the discussion IMO should be about why the costs are high, not why we should forgive student loans.
Rand Paul had a good model for why college is too expensive and how to lower costs of it.
Not an artist myself, but I'm lowkey mad things are this bad in art schools and the art community.
thanks, its maddening truly.
@@MelMitchJackArt the whole AI art thing makes it even better! Yippee! Humanity is DOOMED
As a recently retired Professor of Art, I couldn't agree more. Way to GO! You're just years too late with this, but So Much better to blow the whistle finally.
Thank you! WOW. Wild how many profs see the problem too.
I went to the American Academy of Art in Chicago in 1971-1974. The tuition was around $1000 per year. In today's money that is $9,000. I worked to pay the tuition. I was able to spend 37 years working as a graphic artist and oil paint as a hobby.
If only all of that were still possible. Boomer still haven't realized how lucky they were and easy they have it.
truly wish that these schools focused on keeping tuition aligned with inflation instead of putting profit before people.
@@DonnaFoxy Boomers are not as obtuse as you may think.
@@annewebbpots Some believe in tradition or doing certain things at certain age when that is not physically viable by any means today. They truly believe you can and must "do what they did". There is an old lady who believes in getting real estate, North Korea range of haircuts and wearing formal beige office clothes the moment you hit 20. Anything else is frivolous uncouth failure.
@@InternetNonsense sounds like a criticism that every generation has of the ones before them, to be honest. Don’t think that boomers didn’t have their own struggles, just different struggles for a different time.
Is that ‘old lady’ with the beige suits a random person or one of your profs?
That's indeed criminal .... far far far worse than Medical School. Cheaper to get a plane ticket, a work visa, and go live in Europe for a few years while young. After a few years apply as a temp resident to Oxford or Cambridge or one of the premier Art schools ..... it will be 10x cheaper & 100 x better. There are no rules in Art. Status quo Art profesores are simply inhibitors of and detrimental to art. Famous artists become so when they paint like themselves (their own style) and not like someone else whose name is already known.
Problem is, we don't live in the big ancient civilizations' thinking & grandeur. They (Ancients) valued art, science, learning, and knowledge. Built outstanding architecture, made advances that we use today. Our culture values nothing but the acquisition of gold. (Money) Rock pet fetish.
@@UJB123 today's society values tech & don't get outdoors anymore
The past thousands of years of exploration in arts has exhausted all creative originality. We don’t need more arts. We can just appreciate what we’ve gotten already.
@@sacdigitaldesignweb That is one lame and defeatist attitude.
@@sacdigitaldesignweb I'm sure you would agree the same on literature/film
Patronage- we don’t have much of that now.
I heard someone say that what separates successful artists from ones that fail is that the successful artists understand business.
My partner went to cranbrook for his masters. About 150k in debt, hasn’t been able to even get a job in art or grants or any programs. Was the poorest kid in the school, realized how elitist the art world is.
this is HAAAAARD. :| It is wild to me how universal this experience is. i hope he is finding ways to access his creativity still regardless.
True. I hope he heals and gets out of his debt. But unfortunately, he is right about the art world being elitist. It’s…pretty much always been that way throughout history. From the Medicis sponsoring artists and artisans, to the infamous “Austrian artist” (I didn’t even know at first that he was an artist) and how his work being rejected motivated him on his…goals, and even throughout periods such as the 60s where rich people gathered around artists and up to today where also rich people wanted to pay for a banana taped on a wall.
Of course it is and always has been. Only rich people can/will pay for luxury items like art. Virtually every "great artist" you've ever heard of relied on the charity and good graces of their "patrons"(public and private) to fund their career, and it's no different than folks on RUclips that now rely on "Patreon". "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
@@MelMitchJackArtI can asure you it is not ‘universel’. In Belgium, no matter what you want to studie at university, you NEVER pay more than €1.000. So that will be like 3500 for 4 years and mostly your parents pay everything( including books, materials, housing, food etc). If your parents don’t make enough money the government helps pay the costs. I don’t think anyone here in Belgium has studentdebts.
@@coolrunnings3 Yes, that's how a modern country should be run. We're not that blessed in the U.S.
I have a BFA from what I consider a deeply flawed program. At the time I went, illustration was peaking and unfortunately on the decline with every year I was there. This was the early 90’s. I had a decent scholarship that knocked off half my tuition the first two years. I can’t imagine going to that same school today. Tuition has almost quadrupled in price. They have a comics illustration degree. For the love of god, do not go to a school to study how to make comics. Not only can you learn the craft for almost free on your own, but you will never recoup the $200k plus tuition doing comics alone. Just don’t.
deeply relatable. and fully agree! I feel most of the same way about studying Painting BUT glad that i learned technique, didn't give into the pressure to just make ~*~*relational aesthetics~*~*
Well put. I took exactly one computer arts course and it was so slow and outdated, that it was a complete waste of tuition. Everything else has been learned through online lessons or working with peers.
As a animation major with the same flawed curriculum and seeing all the news about the industry and strikes I'm not looking forward to graduation by next semester
I went to a very prestigious fine art school. A number of artists in my fine art graduating class became "art stars." there were extremely exceptional artists whose work you couldn't ignore - but ironically, those artists tended to be the ones who got critiqued hardest with the most cruel comments by teachers and peers during class - they were bullied and even told to stop making art. So the outdated view of the art world being taught is def not on the pulse anymore. One of these art stars made it big with NFT's and is now a millionaire. A few are social activists for their specific cultures and as their social work gained fame so did their art. Plenty of them came from money or inherited a ton of money and were therefore able to continue making art after college without working.
One thing people don't talk about is that many famous artists never went to art school... the ones we study, some had ateliers but most modern artists just made art. It's really who you know. My biggest regret about art school is that I should have spent more time schmoozing and building close relationships with my peers vs making art all the time. Group shows get recognition and nobody is gonna invite you to a group show with them if you aren't friends.
Same thing with film school - if you're going to an arts school then go with the intention of networking, with art making being secondary. Otherwise save your money and instead make art / films!
In Toronto there was/is an artist who makes very good stuff at a pretty high volume and often is changing styles. He is very good at selling the work and building a waiting list. When there's an opening it's like a 'drop' people have already been waiting months to buy. He is collected by celebrities and so on. But he is disliked by "the community" of artists because he doesn't go to their (mostly lame) shows. And people are jealous because he's very productive and successful. Making is high priority. He used to make things under assumed names to sell on ebay to figure out people's tastes. I'm not sure his business tactics at the moment. But he's put together very impressive packages to send to galleries in major cities and eventually one picked him up. But that was years ago now. Not sure if he went to art school or not. But he's got good taste in my view. (I have an MA and am a part time art/design prof sometimes.)
I didn't go to film school. I watched films. -Quentin Tarantino
@@BenWeeks-ca Good for him! The art world is just so snobby sometimes. It's really unfortunate... unnecessary gatekeeping. Much art we study through history was made to sell. The idea of the starving artist is no longer romantic. This guy gets it though - art is at the end of the day, a product. No matter how deep or conceptual it is. It's a product for a market to be sold... There should be no shame in treating it as such.
FYI, they are probably not “all stars “
⭐️ but a group of privileged individuals all sharing the same contacts
@Betcaligarcia some Vtubers are artists. Ina and Roara of Hololive do drawing livestreams. Others do too but those especially. Shiguri Ui too. She got into Vtubing because she was making the models. You don't have to do traditional art.
“ And, truly, artists and creative people - we want to know paths to freedom, not to prestige.“ - I love this quote.
i draw to be free so theres that too
you're going to love the vid that just went up!
I graduated from Chouinard Art Institute in Los Angeles in 1970. It later became CalArts. At that time the mythology was that you were somehow supposed to work a 40 hour week in the studio, whether anyone was buying your art, paying your bills for you, or not... the model for this was all the admittedly great abstract expressionists in New York who spent all their time in the studio or in the Cedar Bar, or in LA, Barnie's Beanery. Needless to say, this left a glaring question unanswered ..."What did they live on?" They were doing this before they were selling. We were all bewildered by this but had no answers..and felt very guilty because we couldn't put that off,,,. until we discovered.......THEIR WIVES SUPPORTED THEM! These women pretty much all worked for the NY Public schools, and they supported these guys asses for years, and got NO credit. The art world is FULL of lies about money. The things that they did teach about money were mercenary in the extreme. For my four years, I basically got a full ride, something I deeply appreciated, and made it possible for me to be there. But this lying about the realities of surviving while an artist is an old story and is still going on. The best advice I ever heard was... " learn a skill you are at peace doing and get a part time job, and do your own work In your own way, in your own time, either that or learn to write grants and get really good at it." My advice is for shows.... don't frame stuff. It will bankrupt you. Find ways to present your work without investing more money in having a show than you can make back unless you sell every single piece.
You are totally right on. The way the art world operates at the higher levels is really repellent. Making art is the voice of the heart. It should never be treated like a 12 year old child being sold for sex.
In the face of all this grubby sordid world, both I and my husband are in our 70s and we are still doing our work, it is the best and truest it has ever been. It makes us happy. Even if we put it all on our funeral pyres when we die, we have done what we are called to do, and are happy.
The only thing that surprises me in that entire comment of yours is that the artists were congregating at Barney's Beanery??? 😅😅 the one in Glendale? That's where my alumni association sets up shop to watch football games and I simply cannot wrap my brain around that being an hip art spot 😂 I will have to pay more attention to the place clearly.
You Tube: Fat Electrician -CIA and Modern Art. He shows the money trail from the CIA to the abstract artists.
@@afreaknamedallie1707 nope.. not Glendale… West Hollywood on Santa Monica. There was just the one in those days
Bingo. Without the support of my wife I'd be dead much less able to do my art. Of course this was after I had compromised and became a furniture and woodworker for 30 years when my business that I had struggled and died in 2006 after 8 years of business. My wife saw where I was.
At the end. I offered divorce and separation but she wouldn't have it. Sometimes you have to tell God who you are and stick to it no matter what the cost.
This comment needs to be enlarged into a poster and pasted on the columns of every art school.
As my sculpture prof said “To get ahead in the art world, it’s not what you know, it’s who you blow,”
The prices are absolutely insane, especially for something that 1) You are not likely to be able to live off of, and 2) You can easily study independently and/or find far cheaper classes elsewhere, like the small gallery my sister took classes at.
Oh I agree. Back in 2009 the wealth of info online was not quite as expansive and RUclips was still mostly funny skit videos. Things have definitely changed and I think these places really need to change how they run things if they have any chance at a future.
WOOOOOAH I actually attended the Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts my freshman year. I do not consider art school a complete waste, but it most definitely set me back in my art career. NONE of the teachers or mentors taught me that the sky is the limit with what I can do in freelance. I am just now getting back on my feet creative wise, but unlearning that self-doubt they instill in you is no joke.
The artist's statement is the game changer between success and failure.
Yeah, there's so much derision for doing things that aren't trying so hard to be avant garde. I had so many professors who were more content talking about their own mediocre work instead of teaching. And the artist statement gobbledygook is so absurdly awful that it's purely performative at this point.
@@kickstandism Art is dead.
My grandpa was a professor at U of Arts in Philly, he taught silversmithing there many decades ago. So when I heard it closed, I was curious about it & looked on their website. The tuition alone was $51,000/yr, & that was just tuition only. So you still need to buy books, supplies, food, & housing. I couldn't believe it.
And even at the student cafe coffee costs $6. I was one of the UArts graduate students that just lost my school, my degree , my money with only one summer semester to go. And the school was no help at all. Hey told us if email the night before that they wouldn’t exist in the morning. No transition process, nothing.
it's so absurd cuz it's like how did they possibly think that that model was going to work to make the University like function I just don't get it. so few people can pay that and even the ones who can aren't going to go because becoming an artist isn't what the children of millionaires generally are doing. they're becoming influencers lol
@@cj222100 I remember visiting the animation fair in Stuttgart, Germany Back in 2018 and they had an animation school from New York trying to recruit potential students there. The lady behind the table went on and on about how they're one of the most affordable art schools in NY with the most student-friendly offers. The school was 44 thousand a year, also tuition only. She did not understand why I was refusing and laughing at her offer.....
The RISD BFA cost is insane....what in the hell, buy a house at that point
ABSOLUTELY. buy a big house OR buy land and split it up and live on an artist commune with your friends. Teach each other stuff and study at online art schools, and then the interest and money you pay in is equity NOT student loan debt.
@@MelMitchJackArt Young people who can sign their futures away for student loans are almost uniformly unable to qualify for mortgages to get a house. I guess if you could swing it, you could take out a crazy student loan, use it to buy a house (assuming you have access to the down payment somehow) then rent the house and use the rent to pay tuition.
@@zoetribur3394 My roommate took out extra money for all of her other expenses. Housing, car, leisure and entertainment. She got a doctorate in nueroscience, and was gobsmacked when her student loan payments started. She used to always reference her professor/boss in terms of what her professional track would resemble. The reality was that she’d have to wait for this guy to move on (promotion/retirement/passing) to make room for her to have THAT job. Her lab pay was essentially minimum wage. This is happening to many/most students, not just the arts.
The only real thing art school did for me was heavily contribute to my anxiety issues, gave me my first panic attack, and PTSD. I remember right before graduating going to the career services office and asking them how to find a job as an illustrator (because my teachers all failed to answer this - giant red flag) and they straight up wanted me to sit next to them at a computer and they opened
Google.. I nearly fainted and I told them “I’m not feeling well” and ran away and never went back. I graduated, but I felt sick to my stomach.
that's so so wild. unacceptable for them to charge this much and not actually prepare students to make a living. so sorry you went through this.
Oh wow. We have a kinship. Career services emailed me a link to the Arts and Design page of the U.S. Dept of Labor's Occupational Outlook Handbook, which said "About 95,800 openings are projected each year." Huh. Well, I'll just sign up for opening 95,799 by writing a letter to the Secretary of Labor or what exactly?
Career services was having high turnover at the time and was unable to assist further, according to a follow-up email that also told me that building my future was MY responsibility. True. But why then repopulate career services when its existence proclaims that we whiny stupid in-debt babies can expect some kind of... career services. 🙄
Wow! I had similar situation. Senior year I was asking teachers and career services what previous fine art majors were doing after graduating. Teachers avoided the question, and career services handed me a gallery guide and told me to look there. As if it's so easy to get in those high end places.
A few years later, after I graduated, someone new was hired. I had hopes she could help, but the same thing - take a gallery guide. 🙄
I've been a professional photographer for 30 years. My 27 year old son is an illustrator. Neither of us has ever had a job as an artist; there are NO JOBS. You have got to be a small businessperson to make a good living. I'm semi-retired now, but I made a middle class income and was able to support myself and my son (I raised him by myself without any involvement from his mother who chose not to be part of his life). My son has a degree in computer science and works as a software engineer; but he actually makes enough to live off his illustration work, done in his spare time, if he didn't have his job. He just saves and invests his income from art, and a large part of what he makes as a software engineer too, since the cost of living is low here and he is making 3-4x what most workers here earn. He got one commission from a big aerospace company that made him $40,000 a few yrs ago.
I taught him the stuff that art schools refuse to teach students: how to find and cultivate clients, how to negotiate commissions, and what to charge. I struggled for several years after I graduated from art school because we got NOTHING on how to make a living. Fortunately, I was a photographer, and photography is an easier art field to earn a living in than something like painting or sculpture..
That’s a problem with a lot of universities. I went to film school and none of them told me how to find a job or even what a PA was. Luckily I found a mentor who helped me. But it was tough for a bit. In my opinion, there should not be art schools. Just art trade schools or community college classes. Getting in debt should only be for careers like doctors, lawyers, etc. Aka careers where you NEED through knowledge and time to make connections.
You have really done creative people a service here. I went to art school but have worked most of my life in jobs that use my creativity. It hasn’t been the pure art life that is modelled in college but I’ve made a sustainable living. As I head towards retirement I can do more and more of my own work. What you have articulated is so important.
thanks!
Art schools are definitely way too expensive and most are not very good at teaching art. I'm in the process of opening an art academy to teach people how to paint realistically in oils.
i love this! good luck!
@@MelMitchJackArt Thanks! Its a lot of work but I hope to help a lot of people.
I like how the Renaissance taught art. One great artist taking on an apprentice or two, and so on and so forth.
Please never stop talking about this. It needs to be discussed more and you will really make a difference. I am with you!!
Yes!!!!!!
My daughter was quite skilled in art and dance. I went with her to a well known private Art Institute in Seattle, WA. We sat through presentations on Graphic Design and Dance. One parent asked the dance school presenter about employment after completing four years. After listening for the reassurance that gainful employment was possible it became obvious that graduates struggled and had to secure other employment to do dance for free. My daughter later graduated with a degree in dance from a state university, but ended up getting a three year degree in physical therapy (Dr. PT) by taking on quite a debt load. She is now a practicing physical therapist and ballroom dances with her husband for fun.
27:58 100%. If you want to make a living as an artist, you have to approach and treat it like a business. Being a full-time artist is a job. This is why the starving artist trope exists--most artists either don't realize this or refuse to accept it. There are like six people in the world who are savants that can produce one work per year and sell it for tens of thousands and live off of it until they decide to make another painting, and chances are, you the reader are not one of them. So if you're already full-time or planning to go that route, make a business plan if you haven't already (seriously, *make a business plan*), set realistic expectations and sales goals, organize your planner and board so you stay on track, and prepare to work.
Do you have any resources or videos that you suggest for artists to learn business strategy?
@@wwm84 burnout city. Not many artists sell their work enough to live off. Even if treat it like a business & work hard.
i love this comment. first off, those folks aren't so much savants as people with wealthy parents.... to sell a painting for 10K means you have connections to the blue chip gallery system which is a wealthy exclusive elitist club.
HOWEVER making a business plan is 100% the first step. I didn't ever actually consider doing this (lol) until I watched Kelsey Rodriguez's videos here on youtube. After I made my business plan it transformed my biz. SUCH an important thing.
@flowerbloom5782 yeah! I would suggest my friend Kelsey Rodriguez as her content is hyper-focused on art business. She also has a free discord server where folks help support one another on their art business journeys. Such an amazing and powerful resource.
@soarpurpose i think this is why the concept around having different income streams (i teach, constantly! its where 70% of my income comes from) is so important. and also being realistic as to when is the right time to walk away from a day job vs keeping something part time to keep income flowing but not burning yourself out.
I never knew about you guys. People who follow an “Art Proffession”.
I am almost 80 years old. I am an artist. I’ve made very little money with my art. I grew up in NYC. I went to the High School of Music and Art, and I loved it. I didn’t have the money to go to college and get a degree.
But I did judge shows, I taught art to children and adults. I’ve had two solo shows. I’ve sold my work.I won awards and recognition. I’ve been the featured artist at Festivals. I’ve managed a gallery and had newspaper articles written about me. I didn’t have college debt. I’ve exhibited my work in galleries. I have printed, painted, drawn and sculpted.
I’ve did take some courses at community colleges. As of late I’m learning a lot from RUclips artists.
I’m now mostly doing Pastels cause I love color, Realism. A couple of days ago I drew a dog portrait in Pastels that made me cry when I profoundly felt the connection to “Lucky”. I am an artist.
I remember laughing when someone told me that So and So was an artist cause he graduated Art School. I thought it was a weird definition of an art. I’ve learned enough about famous artists’ bios to be envious, amazed and be proudly touched by their work.
I have tried to sell my work, write my statements and follow the prescribed course.
I will actually be 80 next month. In August. I brought up my five children and have grandchildren. I am happy and still I wish I could choose jut one medium. But I can’t. Watercolor, oils, printmaking, ink and Pastels all call me at once. I keep away from clay but I am thrilled to now be living in Fort Collins, Colorado, Vera Loveland where there are so many marvelous bronze statues 😂that I can touch!! In NYC the statues are out of reach, in pedestals or in watchful eyes of museum guards. Now I can touch to my hearts content.
What I mean to say is I’m sorry for you kids that have been burdened with the cost of your education, but now we have the Internet, books and nature. Recognize that becoming an artist is not defined by a college degree, but it is who you are.
I had some crappy little jobs but my degree is in Mothering. My Passion is being an artist. You know if you are without a piece of paper. Once someone asked me how I saw my future or something like that, I remember saying that if i had no money or anything, I would still be happy to be drawing with a twig and a puddle of water. I love being an artist.
oh my gosh, i love this comment so much! I love your attitude, desire to keep learning, and what you call your "degree in mothering"! Folks like you are always some of my favorite students when i teach at the community center and farm. Y'all make such cool work because you're completely free from the expectations to make something look or feel the way someone else told you to. "Recognize that becoming an artist is not defined by a college degree, but it is who you are." thats going on my studio wall for sure 💕
This is such a beautiful comment!❤
I loved your story. I found a book about how to find art supplies in nature - and this changed my life. I was able to afford to paint again.
ruclips.net/video/ro87-LJ39pQ/видео.htmlsi=CXpoLKmLHhB4346O
I save up materials so I can share them with people in other areas.
Crazy expensive. I am so happy for you that you were able to keep costs down and kudos for working so hard to do so! These numbers are ridiculous and not feasible for most people.
even if art school was cheaper, the high competition for art jobs still pushes people to decide to not do art as a living.
Wonder if AI will push more away?
AI is already affecting many careers.
Yes, haven’t it kinda been wisdom among anybody that it’s extremely difficult to make a living with art, doesn’t every parent tell that to their creative kid?
One time in art school, I asked a visiting artist/professor who was working on her clay culture in our class, if the client requested a certain theme or image. She looked at me distainfully and said, “I would never allow a client to influence my work.” I was like, wow, that’s arrogant.
Why should she? She was presumably hired because of her own body of work and merit, so why would this issue even arise?
@@aurelia5614 Looming threat of homelessness and hunger will change that tune REAL quick.
@@juniorjames7076 Perhaps Business Finance or Accounting would have been a more sensible choice for some.
@@down-to-earth-mystery-school to each their own. Everyone has a measure of compromise they can live with. This changed for me as I grew older. Art is my gift to do with as I choose.
@downtoearthmysteryschool. It's not necessarily arrogant for an artist to insist on doing the artwork they want rather than doing artwork that someone else wants (client or potential clients).
I'm 76, have been an artist pretty much all my life (since I was 3 or 4 & could hold a pencil), & I've heard this argument repeatedly: should an artist create work that they think will appeal to others, or should the artist create work that is not aimed at pleasing others or at making money?
An artist friend (in his 80s now) made a good living from an early age by selling his prints (he printed his own work, before computers), mainly prints that were similar to his paintings. He'd studied with an artist who was part of the Am. Regionalist School (Thomas Hart Benton, etc., a style popular from the late 19-teens on). This style was always fairly popular & appealed to a much wider audience than most modern styles. My friend was taught oil techniques but was also taught how to compose paintings which had popular appeal. For example, in this style of art, you were taught to include a subject of human interest if you were painting a landscape, such as including some visual reference such as a small cabin in the distance. Landscapes without such a reference to human presence were not as popular, but students weren't always told that reason but were rather told that inclusion of an object indicating human presence made a landscape more interesting, more appealing. (I was taught the same thing by my private art teacher in 6th grade---this idea was very popular.)
My printmaker friend made a very good living from his early 20s on, always working in this general style. Not that he wasn't a good artist---he was. But his work always had popular appeal to the public, not just to art collectors.
On the other hand, I chose not to create art that was designed to appeal to the public. Art was not, for me, something that needed to be popular. By the time I was about 19, I had made that decision. By that time I knew what I wanted to do, knew why I had to paint, & it had nothing to do with making my art popular. Since I could paint in a naturalistic style, I probably could've made a living at painting portraits and/or doing landscapes in popular style, but why should I want to do that? Painting in a style meant to be popular usually means the artist must seriously compromise how they paint & what they paint.
For me, my art was always centered around my spirituality, not just as an adult but from the time I was a very young child. And my spiritual views were never aligned with an organized or popular religion, so I couldn't change my art in order to appeal to the wider public without omitting my own spirituality. (The closest I can get to explaining my spirituality briefly is to say I view the earth as alive, with every part of earthly life containing a sacredness within itself. And I don't divide nature into the animate & inanimate, the mainstream view in western culture for centuries. I've always experienced the earth, the sky, mountains & plants & animals---everything---as alive, each with its own sacredness within. A view that's closer to many traditional Native/Indian spiritual views than to views found in organized religions such as Christianity & Islam. The only other well known spiritual view similar is
Zen. No deities, no hierarchies, no division of animate & inanimate.
I suppose if an artist's views are similar to their society's popular views, then that artist could create paintings that appeal to the wider public without having to create works that are connected with the artist's own ways of seeing. It would not be a choice between creating art that is one's own or creating art meant to please others.
Another problem with creating art meant to appeal to others: how does the artist determine what will appeal to others? I've always thought it was rather presumptuous to assume I know what will appeal to others.
The problem you mentioned--an artist refusing to consider changing her art in order to include a subject someone else wanted to see---is not so simple that one can blame the artist with being arrogant. I have a few times (when I desperately needed money) agreed to do a painting for a client that centered about a particular subject, & without exception what resulted was a painting that was missing any deeper meaning. The result was, each time, a dead painting that might be very attractive to the client but that had no inner life, had no spirit.
And when you do paintings for others in this way, if you do this beyond a few times at least, it has a visible effect on how you paint afterwards. Your hand learns to paint in certain ways, just as your mind does.
I could never understand how someone could genuinely admire your artwork but then want you to paint in a way that they choose. This is very arrogant, in my opinion. A prospective client might think very highly of your work but instead of buying a painting you've done, they want you to do another painting that relies on their preferences---as if they are capable of composing your painting better than you are. Don't you see how this kind of request can easily be insulting to the artist? It's a fine line.
Maybe we're talking about two different kinds of art---commercial art & fine art. But for an artist to try to do both often ends up making the artist lose their own view, their own way of seeing & of painting.
Adjunct faculty are taken advantage of no matter what institution they teach at, not just art schools. People have no idea how poorly adjunct professors are treated. The weird thing is, is that all departments could't run effectively w/o adjuncts.
100% couldnt agree more. The way adjuncts are treated is truly trash. Its why i walked away from all this stuff and I'm on youtube and teaching in a community art center now!
Bravo, I'm going to send this to my community college students so they realize that they need to think like business people as well as being artists.
Fuck no, that's the death of art. Fuck capitalism.
Definitely relate to no longer making art after art school. I make so much less now than I did before going.
oh no! Do you feel like particular things were super detrimental (critiques, readings, teachers) ? I'm glad you're making SOME art but of course, I would love to make more videos on how you could get back to making more!
I’m getting a BA, but have also had to deal with burnout. I held it off by doing art for me. The stuff I liked. Art that wasn’t for my job or homework.
And I know it’s after… but maybe doing art for yourself in a way that avoids any trauma from school can help you heal??? If you’ve already tried, I hope you find healing someday ❤
Ah yeah. I can somewhat relate. When I took an art class, I hated how “boxed” it was because the students had to follow certain criteria, and my work and their work was put up on a bulletin board just to see how everyone did. It was like comparing others’ artworks to each other’s (even though the purpose was to help others improve and see what others did to make the sphere drawings realistic). This was just from my perspective though. After art class, I don’t think I drew for a while up until a few months later when I started to experiment with my art again on my own terms. I felt much more free than I did being in that class. I still draw to this day, and I’ve started animating.
Still, aside from my experience, it looks like you’ve been through a lot while going to art school. I hope that you are healing, and that when you do want to try to get back into art, maybe start small a bit? That way, you don’t stress yourself out and remember the art school. Sorry, this is just a suggestion; I’m not sure if it could work for you. But still, aside from this, I hope you are healing (or I hope you heal), and I hope you have a good day!
I have a niece who grew up making tons of art, winning art contests and stuff, who then went on to art school. After graduating, she never makes art anymore. She's over 40 so she graduated about 20 years ago, and has never used that degree. It's sad how art school seems to suck the art right out of people sometimes.
@@sharimeline3077some might call that life. The endless responsibilities of work etc etc. Very few have an easy ride and all have sxxt to deal with no matter how much money they have. If I had known what I know now I would have put in a couple hours every night. Art is a discipline and it's never easy. At least for me.😊
You are correct, young lady. The system is broken.
One thing people can do to get away from the mess that is arts business and culture is become a plein air painter. Seriously. Getting outside, away from institutions, and having a one-on-one with nature - which is a challenge in itself - is incredibly liberating and rewarding. And if you do it for yourself and do it with authenticity, it might be the most rebellious thing you can do as an artist. Worked for me.
Thiiiiis is my entire practice now. Rebel forever.
Absolutely. Plein air is so liberating. You can never say you have nothing to do!
Thank you so much for telling the truth. I have a 24 year old daughter who is an artist. She is not interested in going to college and I consider her wise. I know many people have a different opinion about this. I don’t know the solution for young people today. I’ll help my daughter while she finds her way in this world and not push for college. I know that all of what you’re saying about art school is true.
I'm so happy that you're such a supportive parent of your artist daughter and see her decisions as wise! Glad this video helped solidify your perspective!
It's sad because the college experience itself can be valuable in so many ways, but not at the price they're asking. I would suggest paying for some classes at your local community college to expand her techniques and competence (there may be other types of classes offered in your community too), but there's no need to go to art school or take on a huge loan.
@@sharimeline3077 I have actually paid for and attended with her, a couple of classes at our local art college. It was a very enriching (and fun) experience for both of us.
There were many rich kids at art college in Exeter UK, and many from Germany, Poland, Ireland and from the US. It was interesting to meet so many people interested in art. There were no business instruction, however many students had an idea of what they could do afterward, but the rich students did not have to worry about working and earning money. The age was 1975 and I had a few lectures with more famous artists. Interesting times.
I remember in high school I was upset I didn't get to go to art school in my state because it was too expensive. I got my BFA and MA for $20,000 at a state school. Every day I thank my past self for not going to an Art School.
As an aspiring art student, this video is SO important. I’ve been planning and creating a portfolio to apply to art school- RISD in particular; realizing that my dreams are most likely never going to come true is saddening. After seeing so many videos similar to this, I wonder what I’d even do aside from art. Thank you for this video, it means a lot.
I’d also like to note that my aunt went to art school. It’s been over 15 years since then, and she’s not in an art job (she works at the DMV), and is still paying off her loans to the point of almost extreme debt.
And every art teacher I’ve asked about applying has ALWAYS told me to go for a different field. My AP drawing teacher tells me that she regrets going into the art field every day.
I’m in the same situation, same prospective school. I’m not sure what my contingency should be. My other college paths (English, music) seem to have similar issues with their institutions. I wonder what we should do if those plans fall through?
@@msunflowers I have similar side-options (English and education). If we were to choose not to pursue art, going into the other fields of choice would still result in financial difficulties. For now, I’m still pursuing the arts, while also putting focus into my studies. By keeping my grades high, I’m hoping to have other options aside from art school- I.e,. STEM related fields, which are more likely to provide high-paying jobs. An option to look into would be the RISD-Brown dual-enrollment? The acceptance rate is low, though 😭
Thank you, I know a young lady studying fine arts at a university in Canada. I'll know what her world is more about, even if she is starting to figure it out. Society needs artists, you reflect our spirit as human beings, and give us an imagination that we never realized we needed. You help us grow as individuals and as a society.
thank you for this!
Fine arts has always been a wealthy child industry
i have hope that it doesnt have to be.
There’s a great cut scene from Godfather II where Michael Corleone’s niece introduces her fiancé to her Uncle Mike to get his blessing. Nice kid, asks for her hand, and impresses Uncle Mike for showing respect like that. He asks what he’s studying in college. Fine Arts, he says. “And how are you going to support your new wife on Fine Arts?” Kid’s kind of embarrassed, but explains he comes from a wealthy family. Mike gives his blessing, but does advise him he should maybe take some business courses too. Pacino at his absolute best. Great scene and very true to life in many ways.
Most times it’s used for money laundering 😂😂
@@keithjackson2035 yep - a huge portion of current art "investing" is a tax dodge.
I love your honesty. I love art and creating it but hate the toxicity of the scene. Can’t stand the snobbery.
thank you and hell yeah! Definitely check out the pinned comment because im hoping to build community that is very "anti art world"
This is a great video with a great message, thanks for sharing your thoughts on this!
I sell at outdoor art festivals. I don’t make a lot, but I’ve probably earn more than most working artists.
The gallery model isn’t sustainable for artists. I show my work twenty times a year to tens of thousands of people. A artist in a gallery shows every 12 to 18 months that maybe reach a thousand or two people.
The way I sell now was never even spoken of during art school. Selling at an art festival was beneath them.
My school closed about eight years ago. I no longer recommend art school.
THIS! So glad that you commented. I was guilty of not thinking about or taking art festivals seriously until I started watching artists like Megan Wang, littletinyegg, and Katie Mai here on youtube who were doing it. All of a sudden a light CLICKED in my head and it has been a huge success for me too!
There is something so magical when people who might be afraid to walk into a gallery walk into your booth, you can connect with them as humans and geek out about why you painted a particular subject. that connection IS the magic.
@@JustinThorntonArt yes there can be a snobby element with some artists.
I have exhibited in small galleries which would be lucky to get a hundred people through.
I have very low energy socially so markets would be hard for me. Although it seems some local artists are territorial about it. One suggested for me to try markets. Another said there are already enough artists (including themselves).
@@soarpurpose the ones worth doing have a jury, so any territorial arts have nothing to say if you get in but they don’t.
But yes these shows do require a lot of social interaction. I’m definitely not interested in socializing for a few days after one of these shows. I need time to recover.
@@JustinThorntonArt I have very low social capacity which makes things hard. Might take part in a group exhibition. Less pressure. But might still be very socially taxing. Another problem is that the markets expect cheaper paintings but I spend a long time on my paintings & don't want them to be dirt cheap (would rather shred them).
@@soarpurpose as for price you just need to find the right events. Not markets, fine art festivals. I sell works on paper for up to $2500 and paintings on large canvases can go for up to $10,000.
The social thing gets easier with practice, you will just be really worn out by the end of the day. I also have a limited social battery. Make a few scripted things you can say to people so you don’t have to think about it. It makes it more manageable.
It’s insane how normalized it is to get into insane amounts of debts regardless of your major. At least with going the doctor route, it will eventually pay off due to the high salary, but artists are constantly underpaid, overworked, and constantly at risk at losing their jobs :(
This advice and commentary is excellent. The same holds true for the writing community, especially the issue of when to do as advised and when not to.
Not getting intonthe PhD program I was going for was retrospectively the best thing that happened to me financially. Not art school but academia is trapped in the same echo chamber and my current career owes nothing to all the money I poured into higher ed
PREACH IT! As someone in a similar journey as you: BFA, MA, and MFA in painting...the dream was to be a professor(currently am after 160 applications over 3 years of applying post MFA graduation...yes 160 is correct)and I was told almost an identical lie in every avenue you described as a student, but I know I am lying to every studio major student to keep the numbers afloat for enrollment. I do try and encourage them to minor in something practical like marketing or graphic design, which most do thankfully.
Also, another factor to why our professors who are a couple generations older than us is that the art world functioned much different in the 80s-90s when most of them "made it". Galleries were plentiful, lower tier and mid tier collectors were plentiful and opportunities cost less if nothing at all for gallery representation.
We were all lied to.
I went to Parsons back in 1979, hated it, lasted one semester. (I did end up illustrating some books for major publishers which was the reason I went in the first place). So refreshing to hear your take on this, it so often feels like the art world is a toxic combo platter of high school cool cliques, corporate ass kissing, professional victim identity politics, bs artspeak, making yourself into a product...
the art speak is so bad!
My ambition is to create Art with a Capital A while having a interesting and sustainable job, at least in the first few years. I went to a top liberal arts college, Parsons, and took classes at an art & media training school. Turns out that my undergrad and the training courses were much useful than my Parsons degree lol
I’m also represented by a major publisher in my home country as an author-artist haha
Schools like Parsons accept a lot of student with the sensitive flair but lacks concrete understanding about the nature of art, society, human condition, etc. Understanding ‘issues that matter’ requires hard work, in-depth emotional understanding, etc. ‘Suffering’, basically. Not surface level engagement.
What really bothered me about my college education is that they didn't discuss the art business. They advised me to be an illustrator and I had no clue after graduation where the money was in illustration. They actually told me to go to design studios and advertising agencies which told me they almost never used illustration. I tried to join the society of Illustrators and they told me I couldn't join because I wasn't making a living at doing illustration. I went to CSUN in California. It was a horrible state university. My professors were more concerned about helping themselves. One of my instructors got another job he wanted more during the semester. Another professor wouldn't answer my question when I asked him how you make a living as an illustrator. Most of my instructors were professional instructors and not professionals in the industry. One of my art projects from college infuriated people and I lost jobs because of it. The critiques were worthless. In regards to getting your student loans forgiven, doesn't that ONLY apply to art TEACHERS? It's interesting. I think the college forgiveness is for nurses and fire fighters when the arts are more difficult to succeed at.
Oh no! This story is SO frustrating but thank you for sharing with me. I also tried an illustration pivot (I’m a digital painter too!) and then realized most big companies hire illustration work at contract only so I had to shift gears. It sounds like your profs were clueless on how to apply your skills to the real world. Hopefully you’ve started to find your own way? I follow a lot of successful illustrators here on RUclips. Katie Mai and Fran Menses immediately come to mind.
And to your point about forgiveness, yeah, precisely. It only applies to people who get a full time position at a non profit school that stays open for 10 years. I’m still really angry at the prof who told me this because he really did not have my best interests at heart in the long run. Glad I moved thousands of miles away from that man because his web was a dangerous and harmful spiral for me.
One of my friends went to CSUN for her art degree and really loved it, but that was a long time ago. Well, all I can say is that professors only know how to make money teaching. They aren't making it in the so-called art world, they're just teaching. They should have people that CAN teach students exactly that - how to make a living doing this thing they're teaching! But they don't. That's a big flaw in the system.
@@sharimeline3077 I totally agree with your statement. I think a lot of artists go into the art world because art is what they do best but what they are lacking are business skills.
If an institution no longer exists then the debt should be removed. If the institution failed then their service was clearly not to the standard they were charging.
fully agree 100%
Yes, this!! My little brother went to a music school that shut down months before he was due to graduate. There was one week of notice and teachers that didn't bail stayed to help students finish what they could for their credits. My brother was cheated out of a bachelors degree and ended up with debt and a drinking problem from the anxiety. I think he's doing better now but he never got to use those credits. He works in an auto shop now, and while he likes it it's not what he got in debt for. I hate the times we live in.
No. That's nonsense. The debt is to the party which lent you the money. If I lend you money for a car that no longer exists because it got totaled, you still owe me the money.
@@sail2temporary Clearly you don’t understand analogies. The correct analogy would be lemon laws in which the government forces car sellers to refund buyers for faulty vehicles.
Not only that but if the institution doesn’t exist who is getting that money?
It’s just a way to tax people who were essentially threatened with being shunned by family and society if they didn’t accept the debt.
Student debt is legalized coercion.
@@nicholascollins4907 You’re confusing both car dealerships and schools with lending institutions. All of how it works is regulated by the government and no, the government is not there to help you. The government is there to help the lending institutions. If you doubt this, google “bank bailout”, read up on them and then google “student loan forgiveness”. Compare the results. Banks DO get bailed out and student loans ARE NOT forgiven.
The political left in America believes that government solves problems and should be expanded. The political right in America believes that government creates problems and should be reduced. Nearly 100% of the public education system AND the higher education system is run by left leaning people. That’s easy as hell to verify. The reason is that they benefit from government spending and regulation. Those educational institutions reap those benefits at the expense of their customer base - the students. Students are the fuel that makes the engine run. Coercion is the spark that ignites the fuel and the work that the engine does is the expansion of both government and the educational system.
Once you see it, you will tend to lean right for the rest of your life. At that point, they’ll call you a racist and your thoughts & opinions will be wholesale ignored, ensuring that the next generation falls for the same trap.
You’re welcome……
Bless you and your video.
I graduated from UCLA in '90 as a History Major, but also as a life-long artist. I worked for the first 8 years post-UCLA as an Illustrator (with aspirations of transitioning to being a Fine Artist. I did the whole New York thing a few times-flying out to show my portfolio, meeting Steven Heller at the NYT, etc. I showed in a few national publications and a few regional. But by the late '90s I was completely poor, couldn't pay my rent, and thoroughly disillusioned, finally putting away all my art materials one night, never to touch them again. And this was by someone who went to a school who's quarterly tuition, by 1990, did not exceed $300 (I know: completely unbelievable (but true)).
So it is utterly UNIMAGINABLE to think that there are aspiring artists out there spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to go to art school. This was the major reason-even back then-why I never even considered going to an art school (as a Pasadenan, Art Center was literally visible in the distance, and Cal Arts was a mere 30 minute drive away): I couldn't fathom paying the huge amounts of money to do something that had been given to me at birth: being an artist.
The skills that you guys learn at Art School are prodigious and undeniable-there are still things I know I would be better at as an Artist if I chose to go to Art School and learn from there-and yet I also knew that anything that I truly wanted to learn about my craft I could-and would-learn on my own if I chose to. So I didn't then-and I'm not sure if I do even now-see all the logic for choosing Art School-especially at the prices you'll face today.
I think perhaps the single best suggestion you uttered was that all those aspiring artists out there investigate the options available to them in the way of public institutions like community colleges. MAKE the art world change by simply refusing to play their game, and start by refusing to pay these utterly ridiculous tuitions.
I wish you the absolute best! I think you're doing really important work.
+1 to everything you said. Preying on the hope of young, naive students is disgraceful. I never became so jaded about art until I finished my art degree. Some people dropped out, and now I consider them wise. Not only do classes never teach you important skills for business, but also thinking about other people other than artists. I learned more about how to have empathy and understand how creativity can be applied to solving problems from business content than I ever did in art school. Also, for some reason, absolutely no one told me the link between how creativity and trauma are interlinked. I lost stability from an unstable family situation, parent death, and social ostracization right before my freshman year... I was super depressed and I couldn't draw the way I did before all that happened. Everyone just said that practicing more is the key the success, but I couldn't keep it up -- I just thought I was a poor student and a failure as an artist. I graduated without a large amount of debt, and I'm just as jaded as some of these folks who had take out all loans. Why? Because core problem is identical - which is the fact that art school doesn't prepare you for life.
Wow. Thank you for sharing. Art really does not prepare you for life and you bring up two BIG points. Art school doesn’t teach people how to communicate with an audience outside of other artists or “art world educated” people. AND art schools focus so much on hustle culture and meritocracy that it really harms students with disabilities. “Just practice more” when you’re dealing with grief and loss is bad advice. But these people got MFAs, they don’t know how to properly handle trauma, mental illness, grief, and other disabilities in the classroom and it’s a damn shame. Because often administration punishes students for being unwell. 😭
Yuppp... Went to school for art therapy after seeing the art/trauma overlaps in so many kids/friends/students/myself.. dreamed of making a positive change.. now my school went out of business this year.. got a basic teaching job but.. school politics is its own broken nightmare.. we are not rewarded financially in this society for bringing joy into the world or trying to help fix roots of problems.. putting people over policy & profit is career suicide.. and yet, i hafta keep trying 🫠
I am a graphic designer and went to community college and finished my degree at an art and design school that was purchased by a state school. Fast forward 5 years within my career, I volunteer as a designer mentoring other younger designer and I tell them not to go to art school to get into this profession. Go to a state school or try to build your career by freelancing for your community. Most of the relevant skills can be learned by working at local print shop and seeking mentors in your community.
Overall these institutions do not create community, and do not set their students up for success. Most of my friends who I went to art school with do not practice art or design, and it really makes me sad. I was extremely lucky and with scholarships and saving money by working in school I graduated debt free. But now I see others who took out loans and it rips my heart out, and they can't even work professionally or enjoy it has a hobby anymore. They paid all this money to resent something that enriched their lives, and its all capitalism fault. Our system doesn't support the human drive to be creative, and bring others joy with our craft.
Yep, it was capitalism all along. The system is so broken.
glad to hear you are mentoring the next generation and guiding them towards more sustainable means. I have lots of friends and former classmates who have completely stopped the practice they went to school for. It is partially classism, partially elitism, and of course late-stage capitalist expectations of individual exceptionalism. none of these things are helping us :(
@@MelMitchJackArt thank you! Just wanna look out for the young creatives. But its sad artists are expected to be writers, designers, marketers, salesmen, college educated, content creators, etc.) to be successful and then get blamed for being incompetent if they can't succeed. The bar is so high to achieve a sustainable lifestyle. No matter the creative profession the bar is high and the pay is always being threatened and devalued.
Humans need artists just as much as we need any other profession is this world. Capitalism can't quantify enriching other peoples lives and because it can't we are deemed worthless. Its really sad.
I too am a graphic designer. In the eighties when I attended art college, Fine Art was all about abstract and so, as it was recognized that I could draw, the tutors on my foundation course suggested graphic design or illustration as the specialism. I too feel lucky that I've been able to work in the profession for years. I bumped into a fellow student in a bookshop some 15 years after college. She was working there and admitted she had never worked as a designer since graduating. I didn't stand out at college in any way but I was lucky getting my first job in a small design studio.
I was also extremely fortunate to have a free education here in the UK. This is not the case for today's students. That also breaks my heart.
I'm so happy to hear someone say this. I didn't find my groove until after art school. I had to pursue another career to figure out what making art meant to me. Can't wait to hear more from you
Something that was very quietly insidious about my school was the way they took advantage of international students. My school was located in Canada, and had a huge focus on getting a Canadian industry job. This makes sense locationally, but they put absolutely zero focus into anything else, despite the large amount of internationals and domestic students looking to work for foreign studios. With that, they also refused to acknowledge the very real barrier to getting a Canadian job-- most studios will only hire domestic workers for tax purposes. The result was that during 3rd year mandatory internships, as well as during the hunt for jobs in 4th year, most international students were left out to dry without warning-- forced to job hunt with no aid in a market that did not want them, despite paying 2 to 3 times the price of domestic tuition (in my year this was for 0 studio access and zoom classes lol). Those who did find work either found it remotely from their home country through their own efforts, or took whatever they could in Canada, which was often low paying if not outright unpaid altogether. It makes me sick thinking about all the alumni who worked so hard to make a name for themselves landing at foreign studios like Pixar and Disney, with 0 help from (and likely in-spite of) these schools, who are then paraded as examples of why you should let their alma mater take advantage of you. Horrible, broken industry.
oh my god, thank you for sharing but this sounds so terrible! i take it your 4th year was fully remote? Really unfortunate they were opting out of acknowledging the needs you were expressing. this is awful!
Universities in Canada love to talk about their ethics and ideals, but the truth is that they care more about making money than about anything else. I taught English as a Sessional for several years and was shocked by how many foreign students were in my classes who could barely read or understand the language. Why were they there? Because the universities wanted their high tuition payments and didn't care how lonely and miserable and isolated these students often were. It was disgusting. But attend any university event and some well-paid administrator will make a land acknowledgement with a big look of fake compassion on his/her face. Massive hypocrisy.
I was about to enroll to VFS and NYFA after I graduated on Film and Television, but I felt disappointed due to the high costs and the requirements to get a "scholarship" when in reality is a simple loan. Besides that, I felt regret to enroll a postgraduate in Screenwriting on the same college, only for a single semester while the other wasn't full enough to take the classes.
Instead, I went to a workshop in documentary filmmaking and read some books about screenwriting, which I learned more.
Also, healthcare is broken in the same way. Working as a nurse and wanting out I take art classes on weekends at college in my city. They have classes for community that are not too expensive for me.
oh man healthcare is so broken. I have a chronic illness and noone understands it.... at all. Plus after the way the pandemic ran roughshod over y'all... the burnout and anger must be so real.
I did the opposite. I got an art degree at a state school, saw my friends get an mfa and struggle. I decided to become an RN so I could afford to be an artist. 😅
The Italian Renaissance was over 1500 years ago. That is the time period I dreamed of living in as an artist. Imagine the regard, respect and prestige to be an artist then. Keep it real. Keep it internal you terrific young artist.
As someone who couldnt afford to go to an art college, I feel like the biggest profit you could get from attending is making connections. I've worked on my craft enough for it to be praised and all, but it is just so hard to get a hand in the industry without previous networking. and to think that those networking opportunities are not only hand-picked but also influenced by favoritism and classism is just frustrating. boo
I had some wonderful teachers at my community college, including one who hooked me up with her old boss at a design studio, which gave me real life work experience. i continued my education at an over priced art school. Honestly, I learned so much more from the cc instructors and felt they were truly interested in helping me get somewhere with my art. The art school was an unnecessary waste of money
The 'connections' are still out of most art students reach. Possibly in the very tops schools, but I remember a couple of lines from Joni Mitchell's A Free Man In Paris::
"There was nobody calling me up for favors; And no one's future to decide."
She is referring to the music industry of course but a lot of musicians, including Joni, attended art school. But you are correct; the whole system is engineered for competition and grace and favor at the very top.
I wish this was a video I could show my mom when I had told her that I didn't want to go to college. I have my BFA in digital arts and animation. Its currently on the wall of my apartment collecting dust.
I made this to try and save future students from my fate! I dont hate everything about my art school experience but ive become increasingly bitter the further out i get. Hope you are finding ways to be creative with that degree even if its just for yourself or in your hobbies to bring joy to your life!
ah fuck. i'm preparing to apply to digital art/animation programs, because not going to college isn't an option and it's the only thing that doesn't make me depressed to think about doing for the rest of my life. is it actually not worth it? i want to do things like character design or storyboarding.
@@firelordoregano5632 i'm the exact same way lol so im also interested
@@firelordoregano5632I have a BFA in animation and I also focus on more of the concept art side rather than technical aspects. And I am in the same situation that my diploma is just collecting dust, and I struggle to find any degree related job. Unfortunately the competition for storyboard/concept art is wild, and if I were to give advice to someone willing to go for animation - better focus on technical skills ie coding, rigging, simulations, vfx- specialist in these areas are both higher in demand and better paid. Overall I kinda regret that my curriculum barely included anything coding related, bc now I have to learn it on my own and being able to code is a great skill
@@firelordoregano5632 you could make a living out of it, but you're gonna need energy and resources (money, mental health, support system, emotional intelligence) for that so you're gonna have to honestly ask yourself how much drive, energy and Varied Resources (tm) you already have on your own without college. If the answer is "not much lmao", dw you can try the approach other people are trying:
Apply to a college that lets you get a career in a job that pays well enough to allow yourself to learn animation self-taught (and maybe get experience in how to get clients), get a "regular day job" which, again, is what a TON of artists do so nothing strange there, it's just you taking a shortcut to a better paid day-job, and then use that salary to fund your way through storyboarding (i recommend storyboarding first because it's more possible you'll find someone willing to hire you since character design is saturated, however, do also keep in mind storyboard artists are getting more and more exploited as years go by). College will charge you an obscene amount of money for a few classes where the teacher may not even know what they're doing, but online you will find realized artists from movie studios and production houses selling courses on what they learned to do for cheaper, or sometimes for free, AND you get to support them directly. That way you can try and build a portfolio to test the waters without risking your income, your housing, or a bad move against the IRS (tax systems in several countries often do not offer protections to freelance workers).
It'll take a couple years and mayhaps a bit of moving in and out of big cities to establish yourself in the art world but you'll eventually land a safer job with less precariousness and debt than if you went to animation college asap with half energy, full debt, and negative motivation.
I am NOT saying this to suck all motivation out of you. I'm just saying that, among people who went to an art college or pursued an animation degree as their first or only option, there is DEFINITELY a pattern and it's not painting a pretty picture, but fortunately there are ways to avoid it.
Thank you so much for honesty & transparency 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 This is helping a lot of artists, saving them a lot of time & money. Blessings to you ❤
I’m an aerospace engineer, not at all in the art world. You painted a very clear picture (pun intended) of the problems with art schools. More importantly, you seem to have a very solid and viable solutions. You should build an art school the way it should be: affordable and offering practical skills to live from the craft they teach.
Thank you for this! I am hoping to build something ~*~*like*~*~ an art school but less harmful, more healing. I'm testing some retreats soon!
I wouldn’t be surprised if such and art school would get actively sabotaged by the art industry/ system.
honestly, this is the first vid i see talking about art school where the problems and sollutions aren't talked about vaguelly and there's an actual person that can empathise. I'm tired of my professors making bank while abusing their teaching positions and the toxic favoritism in my university where sex sells (quite literally). I'm tired of how i'm not here to get better but to i honestly don't even know, perfecting my skill is something i have to do in my free time but simultaniously not having time to bc i have to make a bunch of themed drawings limited to just papes and nothing else. It's such a waste of time
hey thank you for this! I will admit part of why i drank the kool aid so long is that i benefited from that toxic favoritism. I had a prof take me under his wing and mentor me long after graduation. That relationship was so toxic and i talk about that struggle in my video about quitting art... Those people dont really have it better, they just are subjected to more delusion.
I shared this with others but you can 1, walk away and choose a more affordable degree elsewhere... i made this vid during the summer on purpose. and 2, demand change by organizing with your classmates. Y'all have more power as a collective than you do as individuals.
In business terms, you are paying for a service that you are unsatisfied with.
@@MelMitchJackArt And you aren't the first nor the last subject of that particular professor's "toxic favoritism" I guarantee it. Professors that do this stuff are notorious and they are everywhere in art schools. If I could give my best advice to someone entering art school it would be to avoid any type of friendship with a professor. Thing is, it's those very friendships that land people in plumb prestige situations. I would say to avoid art school altogether and maybe attend some sort of atelier and then take business and marketing at a community college if you want to be a working artist. You won't land the prestige or gallery gigs but you will be able to make a living.
This video is long overdue ! It’s wildly powerful and insightful. She’s 100% bang on, on so many facets of the art world
So appreciate your well-supported POV on status/issues of traditional formal art education. A bit older than some of your viewers i suspect, I was encouraged to NOT pursue art education at the University level because I "wouldn't be able to pay the bills" upon graduation. This was 1977! Retired now for Special Educational and running a non profit i am finally returning to my art (mixed media painting and writing). So many fabulously talented folks on Patreon and You Tube. Current technology, techniques and skills right at your fingertips and Kelsey Rodriguez. And you. Keep encouraging beauty and happiness.
I love this share! Glad you have found your way back to art. Kelsey is a good friend! Both of us will keep encouraging beauty and happiness 💕 You keep making as well! Persistently bloom! :)
Its so crazy to hear, I'm at a college in philly in an art program and I had friends that went to UArts and it was crazy hearing how it just shut it's doors so suddently.
as someone who didnt go to art school, and opted to practice + learn + sell work on my own, this video rules. you're so real. thank you for speaking on how broken these institutions are. we need a new art world that is less intersectional with the 1% - and more intersectional with the real world everyone else lives in.
Thanks for understanding and the kind words! Hell yes, you get it.
One of the key things I've grown to understand with time(I graduated into the 2008 recession with an econ degree - then immediately found work in video games, which sent me on an arts trajectory) is that the basis of our economy is political because of that convergence between "having the gold" and "making the rules" - and therefore most of the things you can be funded for, including the culture, will be downstream of some elite interest, speculative bubble, government subsidy, tax benefit, etc. If there isn't *continual reinvestment* in a field, employment in it naturally trends downwards to a minimum of sustainability - a niche that keeps the torch lit, but nothing more. So the overall tone of culture turns on the election cycle, because that sets the policy and investment climate.
Right now borrowing is curbed on a national scale by high federal interest rates, and therefore all of the industries went on layoff sprees. That also affects the colleges since they are usually some mix of leveraged up(and vulnerable to losing their own investments) and tied down by their own donors(who will ask for a building or something).
The actual skills have only been a small factor: if being technically adept is useful towards someone's empire, they employ you. This has led to a climate in places like the tech industry where the prevailing entry-level employment strategy is to always hop on the next trending buzzword and announce that you are an expert in it - even if you aren't. If it's new, you can claim the credentials without much pushback.
The advantage of arts skills in this sense is that they are relatively enduring: shape and form are a more universal language than English, and far more durable than any computer language. However, it's also more of a commodity skillset for the same reasons: for most tasks, people don't need to hire the 99%th percentile draftsman if an 80% one is available and cheaper. And as we've turned towards using more technology, we keep carving away chunks of the lower percentiles. That alone makes a strong case against arts as a four-year degree, since that would mean you expect a moonshot kind of career trajectory, versus a sustaining one.
This is such a deep analysis of the factors and forces pulling the levers. Thank you for sharing!
It’s rare to run into such an insightful comment. Had to slow down and read it again.
1) private equity firms pillaged Art Institute and Ex'pression.
2) the same mechanism that caused the housing crisis is causing the student loan crisis.
The Debt Collective for sure gives me hope in terms of strategies out, but it really is just letting speculation in the private sector run rampant into delusion
It’s so important to make this economic link. Art school tuition wasn’t always a risky decision, but private equity shenanigans have made our country desperate and poor.
And the private equity investors are pillaging elsewhere. They dealt the death blows to newspapering and radio and are even now bilking every single the medical field - even veterinary medicine. They work off the same script wherever they launch their bust outs.
Yep, came here to say that.
Damn private equity firms
Love your honesty, openness and your brains girl! This is why after studying Graphic Design and not fine arts (parents forced me) I decided getting into debt to study art, was not going to be my path. My parents did not wanted me to succeed in anything, not marry, not anything, less be whom I was born to be: an artist. So, they’re out, I did take art classes at different places, as a guest student, workshops, etc. but with Graphic Design studies, even though I did not like it, I had a good base, and they gave us an obligatory course about finances, it was HARD, even for students in finances, but it was GOLD, I rudimentary understood what it means to sell, to open a business, budgeting, etc. So, I’m so happy I did not invest in air, bc I already had to battle at home fir the right to have a life and be someone, so, I chose by battles as wisely as I could and thank God! I WON 😍💪🎨❤️🍀🕊️🙏
I am a self-taught graphic designer. What saved me in this career was the fact that I had previously worked in sales and marketing-without that knowledge I would have struggled. All education should be free.
Self taught people are almost always better.
These days, with RUclips tutorials and so many learning sources, I can’t see why you would pay almost $100,000 to go to school to learn the Adobe suite
If you’re a photographer, you don’t need to go to school to learn how to be a photographer you go out and take pictures and you put yourself in situations. Will you have to learn How to compose a good photo.
And yes, I have a degree in industrial design and I was lucky enough to work for a company who paid 100% of my MBA degree
This doesn’t apply to you
Wow! You described my art school experience so perfectly. The realization of classism around you, the way theee professors would discourage and talk down to anyone who needed to work, the way they didnt teach how to use your skills to make money, and having to unlearn many things. I am shocked that my experience actually ended up being so common. I felt very lonely and out of place with my peers who in hind sight were much more well off.
The professor made money from teaching, they didn’t live off their art but encourage their students to do so, without telling them how, because the professors don’t know.
@@down-to-earth-mystery-school That is certainly true.
Thank you for being 100% transparent. Going the path of the creative though is uncertain. That’s the price. Art is largely speculative and opinion based. That’s why it’s important to find something you can do to pay the bills and do art on the side. Relationships are key to success with art.
Great video. I went to Columbia Chicago, which I know is not a prestigious art school-but still a bit pricy! They are in massive debt and cutting departments left and right. I feel like they’re going to close soon. It’s disappointing to see, but I came to a realization early on that if I wanted a creative job it would never be making art. This is why I went into marketing and advertising, and that can feel like a sell out but frankly it’s put me in a position to fully understand how to market myself in freelance and side jobs. I think advertising classes are so helpful for any artist and I wish art schools put emphasis on marketing. I think everyone is playing the social media content game and it’s just competitive and full of clutter, we need to teach artists the skills to build community and define what that means to them.
Columbia! That's where my dad went (for TV) Sad to see they are struggling too. Marketing and advertising are important, but mostly for artists its about finding that community and our audience in a way that feels authentic (rather than the short form content slot machine)
@@jordenjay1106 people "play the social media game" as it costs less than ads. Which some platforms now require to have stuff seen. To then not sell anything.
Creative pursuits are worthwhile but the reality is, few actually make a living from it. This includes books, visual arts, photography etc.
Yup I went to Columbia College Chicago some years back. Big regret. I was an illustration major and game art minor. They were so unorganized. Game art didn't have drawing classes, Illustration didn't have anything dealing with character design. Just terrible.
Thank you for this. I was horrified to learn what people are paying for art school. Your points about the invisible classism in the art world are well-made, too. I have been an artist my whole life, living off the sale of my artwork. About the time you went to art school, I took on my one and only student/apprentice. He was 18. I promised his parents that I would get him into at least one gallery after a year with me. We succeeded. Today, he is on the verge of becoming a full-time Painter, with sales as his sole income. One point I think worth your exploration is the fact that most art schools promote art reflective of today’s art world, by which I mean art that is only about art, not life. Art that is cold, elitist, inpenetrable. I gave my apprentice a few simple tips that helped him succeed; Make at least some art each day that is meant to sell, that is well-crafted, beautiful in the Keatsian sense, that you are happy to make, and that will further your knowledge of your craft. The sales of this art will buy you the time to make art that pushes the envelope. Thanks again for a revelatory video.
That's a great track record, even if it's only one so far. Thanks for sharing that concise counsel.
I've always felt a really deep sadness that I couldn't go to art school, in part because of my disability, and in part because of financial constraints. This video has really opened my eyes about what land mines I dodged, and I feel really comforted. You've inspired me to find ways to celebrate my art and creativity without higher education 💖
I really regret going to art school man. My animation program didnt even have an animation professor for like a year of my BFA. They had to pull in people from other programs to teach the 3D class so they were learning alongside us, which isn't really what you want when learning something new! We never had animation classes focused on any particular kind of animation, and we never even learned to storyboard. I appreciate how hard my professors worked, but the department was so poorly focused and financed. Most of my memories of college are taking classes that had nothing to do with animation and feeling overjoyed when id get ONE in a semester. Many of the programs got cut and professors retired or left. And oh my god that was such a good point near the end about construction projects!! My college was CONSTANTLY doing construction projects that lasted years and never seemed to be done. Fences everywhere blocking off walkways but no one ever working behind them.
wait... WHAT THEY DIDNT HAVE A PROFESSOR IN YOUR DEPT?! how in the administrative gymnastics did they manage that one?!
@@MelMitchJackArt it was a joint animation/illustration bfa (the two were one degree), so they had the illustration professor teach animation and they pulled a film professor in to veeeeery quickly learn 3D. i felt bad cause sometimes we had questions he had no idea the answers to 😭 it was real scrappy, but the profs did their best and imo went above and beyond their pay grade trying to help us 🙏
@@NonstopFFriday yeah its my bad for not looking into the future to see that the animation professor was going to leave my junior year. ill consider that next time 😔
LOL omg I can relate. We had a class that focused on web design and our prof was so old he never designed websites in his prior jobs, had no idea what he was doing.
One of my favorite things you touched on was how colleges can sometimes help applied art majors get jobs in their fields, but in a lot of cases colleges actively kneecap students. At one of my last jobs I was a creative director. I went to the art college I attended back in 2010 to try and set up paid internships for students. We were offering $18hr in Milwaukee (that's actually very good here), and we wanted young talent we could mold into how we do things. I was ghosted by the schools administration, and when I finally set up a meeting, they said "sure we'll do it" and then continued to ignore my contacts. When I went to this school in 2010, it was $40k a year. The students should riot.
I'm 50. All the things i attended school for is obsolete. Mechanics, AutoCad drafting, computer design, Advertising design, Broadcasting.
Ur prof giving you a low grade for working while in school is so unhinges, wowwwww. Great vid, thanks for making it, currently doing an MFA in Canada so costs aren’t so bad but very eye opening being in the Institution
This video should be a PSA on tv.
I’m genuinely sorry you had to endure so much over the years. However I am so happy to see your transformation. You have become a better person, and artist, and did it all by yourself.
I totally agree. 45 year old artist, with a training that angles towards fine art gallery stuff and working full time in finance to get loans forgiven. Think the problem is even bigger though. The pace and cost of everything, a regular non artist is a slave to debt and survival. It's a machine that ate up it's resources.
yes. Capitalism eats itself. Everything, Art , real estate, sports, health care EVERYTHING is hyper inflated and overexposed. GREED. And now ai which is making any untrained person an “artist” , or filmmaker or musician overnight by simple prompts.
I found out early that being an artist with a complementary day job was most empowering.
I freelanced (photography) straight out of high school and got day jobs. One job led to a new job as a printer and later as a Print Manager.
I made enough money to pay rent and bills and save. Later, I worked the day Job, freelanced and went to college part time. Year one was out of pocket (City College) after that I scored a full scholarship for my 2 year degree (Business and Marketing) and a 4 year degree (Marketing and Visual Communications). I've been an artist with a day job for many years. Remote contract Web design and content creation work is now the day job and I do commissioned digital art and photography on the side.
Debt for me is scary, It's robs you of your freedom. Everyone pushes teens and 20 somethings to college immediately not many people (parents, etc.) pay the freight. I wasn't having it, I don't believe any debt is good debt. If you can avoid debt, please do.
This is fantastic! and yes, excellent advice!
Wonderful podcast!! I've been thinking much of what you've just said for quite a while. You are right on. Thank you!!