Winchester G30M
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
- / forgottenweapons
With the death of Jonathan "Ed" Browning in 1939, development of the Winchester G30 rifle was passed into the hands of a new employee at Winchester by the name of David Marshall Williams. Williams would become widely known as "Carbine" Williams in later years thanks to Jimmy Stewart and Hollywood, but we will be to that part of this story later.
What Williams did to the G30 was to replace Browning's annular gas piston with his own short stroke tappet system (this being the first rifle to use that system of Williams'). This substantially improved the gun's reliability, and Winchester was able to submit it to Marine Corps trials in 1940 alongside the Garand and Pedersen rifles under the designation G30M. The Marine Corps was legitimately interested in the G30M, as it was expected to be both faster and cheaper to manufacture than the Garand.
Ultimately the trials were won by the Garand, with the G30M placing third in total malfunctions and broken parts. This had involved 37 different tests and more than 12,000 rounds through each rifle. The Garand had 1,480 total malfunctions and 49 parts broken, replaced, or repaired. The Johnson had 1,547 and 72 respectively, and the G30M 2,864 and 97 (roughly double the number of problems as the Garand).
Despite this failure, Winchester was encouraged to continue working on the rifle, if for no other reason than the possibility of foreign purchasers. Williams' next step would be to replace the Browning tilting bolt with a Garand-type rotating bolt, which would result in a rifle Winchester would call the M2, or "the seven and a half pound rifle". We will examine that rifle in the next video...
This is the best firearms channel on youtube. So many wannabe spec ops beard channels out there - Forgotten Weapons is a breath of fresh air.
yeah, even for those who are a bit against guns, its nice to learn about them and history ofcourse. he is very smart.
This is as much a channel for like... would-be gunsmiths as it is shooting enthusiasts. I love it from the bottom of my heart.
That reason is why I patreon this channel
seems my comment was removed lol
Totally agree. This, all the others with Ian (InRange, GunLabDotNet) and Hickok45 are my favorites on RUclips. I like to veg with them before or after work, makes my day.
I have a suggestion: George Orwell wrote about some very poorly designed hand grenades he was issued when he fought in the Spanish Civil War. He described the grenade as having two pins that had to be pulled out before the grenade was thrown.
The poorly designed feature was that one of those pins was very hard to pull out, while the other one was dangerously loose.
Maybe that nasty device could be an interesting subject?
Thank you for your great videos!
I love the idea that they used modified BAR mags during the design process. Just a minute glimpse into the thought process of the engineer. I got a mental picture of someone standing at a bench vise carefully away cutting slices in order to create the curve.
+Rod 1984 I get that a lot. People don't really understand that many of the constitution and declaration of independence signatories were masons. Conspiracy theories are more fun to believe, I guess. FYI George Washington and Ben Franklin were masons, and the guys who threw the tea into boston harbor in protest of taxation without representation were also masons.
@@tackleberry5402 u don't mean freemasons do you ?
11:40 We revel in the return of the Forgotten Weapons Patented Universal Disassembly Tool.
Where do I place my order?
They actually sell them at staples under the acronym PEN, which I am pretty sure stands for Perfunctory Equipment Non-assembly.
Ian, let someone print forgotten weapons on pen caps and sell them. I would buy one. Yeah.
Guys, I'm working on something, keep it hush hush ;)
+Omnihil777 Sign me up for one too! 😁
More than worth every penny spent on Patreon for this. Just walking through the museum you would never know about the internal design of the gun. Fascinating piece of engineering history.
the final design is incredible. I like this design. It is a shame it didn't get wide use.
gun goes PLEHHH!
Carbine Williams, and his lesser known criminal compatriot Artillery Luger Davidson.
I am a WWII nerd and I would just like to say that almost every one of your videos teaches me something new. Thank you very much, please keep up the good work.
You're a really rad guy Ian. I thank you for all you do
10:46 "Typical military sight" meaning absurdly complicated and optimized for shooting at paper.
The action reminds me in many ways of the FN FAL with the rat tail actuating the recoil spring in the stock and the locking action
These two look like they could have actually been adopted if circumstances were different.
These guns remind me of semi auto shotguns. That rear plunger, the cylinder gas system, even parts of the bolt lock up. Very cool guns indeed. Thanks for sharing.
as a Canadian I'm sad we dident get a semi auto like this or the M1 Garand foe WW2
thanks for not making us wait long for follow-up episode. :)
Interesting story and well told. Thanks Ian.
Thanks to you I was able to correct my know it all brother the other day. That felt good!!
I own two Garands and one 41' Johnson and to me they are equals. There is a reason the military didn't replace the M1 with the Johnson, not because it was bad, but it was pretty much an equal and they were already tooled up for M1 production. The Marines who used the 41' loved them and refused to give them up for M1's for the most part.
The johnson had A LOT of trouble with sand and mud. Men in the Pacific jettisoned the Johnson ASAP.
@@TheIrishAmish You are thinking of the Reising. The Johnson rifle was in fact loved by the marines, the johnson light machine gun was even more well liked. The Johnson in fact performed well in sand, mainly because it was a closed system with only the bolt buffer tail exposed but when actuated when fired the debris would be cleared as the short recoil system operated. Marines refused to give them up and marine raiders and parachutists didn't. The only drawbacks really reported with any frequency was early on there were complaints about possible small parts getting lost during cleaning/field stripping, the other was the bayonet. When engaged with the enemy and the bayonet on the rifle the barrel could push back when the enemy was stabbed and the bolt would disengage. Once the bayonet was removed from the person the barrel had to be grabbed and locked back forward. In fact what was thought was an early drawback was actually a gift, the first production, no letter prefix 41's didn't have a bolt hold open, so last shot the bolt closed, keeping the system closed. later models had them but they were indifferent in use.
The Johnson system was revolutionary for it's time with a closed rotating bolt system and buffer return. In fact when Johnson Automatics closed Melvin Johnson went to work for his college friend as an engineer at his company, Armalite. Johnsons 1941 led to the development of the AR15, it's a 41' Johnson bolt system with a gas operation. it fathered the AR.
The rear sight on the second rifle (the one which gets stripped) is very reminiscent of the machined, micrometer sights fitted to some Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 rifles. IIRC they were the earlier sights used before myriad simplified, war expediency sights were fitted.
You know, I've been looking to see if a weapon ever had this sort of design for a while. I don't really like AR pattern charging handles with their flimsy feeling and awkward location, but the value of that design cannot be overlooked. Their indirect connection to the bolt carrier away from the ejection port allows for their full port dust cover and the fact that the handle is pulled out of the weapon nearly eliminates the chance of debris getting into the weapon via the charging handle's travel area. This G30 design also has an ejection port that could be easily covered in the style of an AR and the charging handle is pulled out of the weapon when used without the bad location and flimsiness of an AR 'T' handle. In fact, I'll bet that handle has a satisfying AK feel to racking it. It's a shame the marines didn't go with this option, it would've been neat to see how this action might have evolved with modern weapon design.
MUD TEST IT!
Seriously though, I wonder how this rifle performed against the Garand. That is a very slick and clean looking rifle.
It's a shame they didn't get to present that to the Canadians. Who knows, we could have ended up with a bunch of these things still in circulation. Great video as always!
Good series of videos.
Man, that op-rod is beefy. I would imagine that is quite a durable and reliable design. It makes you wonder what might have happened if they had gotten there just a little earlier.
This is a cool looking/working rifle, i could totally see myself buying something like this.
thanks for making this video
Such cool rifle especially with that bolt, it really is sad that nothing came of this design though it seems from the description and I think you've talked about it before (or I've at least seen something about it before) the M2 is next, it seems to be a completely different rifle. It seems the G30 could have made a nice sporting rifle with a more sporting style stock and that flush magazine!
A curved magazine makes sense to me given the amount of taper on a .30-06 case. The recoil spring in the stock is similar to that 1950's design by Eugene Stoner, what was it called again? Oh yeah, the AR-15/ M16. The op rod definitely looks stronger and less likely to bend than the strange shape of the M1 and M14.
Would the G30's performance in dirt or mud be similar to the M1 Garand ?
I suspect it probably would be.
+Forgotten Weapons i suppose a inrange mud test is out of order ;)
That magazine is so interesting. So funky.
The fact this is was handled by the inventors is 🤯
Long Stroke Piston: I'm going to push the bolt all the way open!
Short Stroke Piston: I'm going to push it part of the way and let Sir Isaac Newton do the rest!
"Carbine" Williams' Gas Tappet System: Have you ever heard of the "one inch punch"?
I had a Mini-30 that used to come apart on its own as you described, until i re-bent the trigger guard so it had more tension.
My Mini 14 did the same; bent it with Channel Locks and it worked perfectly.
That's a neat video. It's easy to speculate on "might have been" if the rifle had actually gone into military production. The detachable box magazine was a good idea. It's also interesting to speculate about any growth potential in the design - the M1 carbine grew into the selective fire M2, one might wonder how a selective fire G30M would have fared when the military went shopping for a new rifle.
I suspect that a select-fire G30M would be a royal pain. If you simply added a selector switch it would be uncontrollable in full-auto and prone to overheating. Think of an M-14 with serious Roid Rage. If you added enough weight to make it controllable and converted the design to open bolt? Then you'd have a... BAR.
But what would have happened if Winchester had produced a scaled down model in an intermediate cartridge? Would this have supplanted our beloved AR-15?
KJ It very nearly did. Winchester entered a rifle, called the LMR, into the SCHV trials the Army was running to decide on an intermediate cartridge service rifle. After the G30M failed to unseat the Garand in 1940, Winchester used a revised action designed by David Williams to create the G30R, an even more amazing rifle than the G30M. Unfortunately, it didn't get adopted either, but later it was scaled down and adapted as the LMR, which was chambered for the .224 Winchester E2 cartridge, an early rival to what was to become the 5.56x45mm NATO.
www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/02/20/bruce-canfield-on-the-winchester-lmr-at-american-rifleman/
+ostiariusalpha Thanks for the info. Check out the TRW LMR. If you can beg, borrow, or steal a copy of "The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons" there's a little piece on it. I'd love to own a semiauto version.
I wonder if this would hold up better in adverse conditions due to not having a large opening behind the bolt like the garand
gotta say, check a cut-away view of a bar. aside from the williams piston, and the lack of a "slam fire hammer" (because ol ed used 2 links, not a lug), this is the action of the bar (less the "tuck in the wrist gee whizzery"). i guess he got an "improved" patent on the bar patent (wrist tuck), so could market it as "original". that sight base/loading bridge is basically that classic bar "quasimodo hump" under some camo, with a modified ejection port locale. this would certainly explain the bar lineage of the maggie, as well as browning's insistence not to modify his baby (lest his patent no longer apply). i actually REALLY like the idea of a white "steam valve" or williams "short stroke" piston being married to the basic bar "links n lifts" action, as it lends itself really well to "inertia carry" after a rapid violent whack on the nose, while stagier, cammier actions might be more inclined toward "cumulative losses" of momentum, and resultant loss of reliability. also very reminiscent of the sks (inverted though), with the captive under sight short piston doing "williams duty" with a pretty vanilla bore to gas piston face interface (and lots more mass shoving the carrier in a longer thrust, probably because the reciprocating bits are so much lighter)
A ballistic oprod; that's quite an interesting detail.
I would love to see how this rifle could have been developed. If Canada had continued a bid, if it was not .303, I would be shooting it. Nice IF.
If it uses a slightly altered bar magazine, does that mean it can use full size ones? (With the modification, of course)
Don't know if anyone noticed, but the bolt tail and bolt hold open lever remind me of the FAL...
I love that there are absolutely no dislikes on this video thus far.
Fascinating to see the process of this rifle coming into fruition. I'm kind of glad that Canada went with the No.4 Lee Enfield though, and kept with it through to Korea. Awesome bolt action.
Glad for the history. Probably not so glad for soldiers in combat using bolt action firearms.
Damn, one of history's "If only"
I like Winchester's head thinking at the time that a more complicated rifle to disassemble is superior to the easier to do so.
What is the battle sight typically zeroed to?
very interesting design
Your a really good presenter. Good job
Makes me want to look for Jimmy Stewart`s movie.
Is this the man called "Carbine Williams"? May only be a name I recall from the movies
I came so early I might be a father now :/ Fascinating piece of firearm history.
Cool rifle mechanism.
How similar are these designs to the gas system on a mini 14?
the "wrist" area on the stock of the gun in that first close seems very patchwork. any idea what' s going on with that?
Is there a way to make this gun fireable again?
Great video. If the G30 series borrowed so heavily from the 1911, was the gas system even necessary? Or is it a matter of the gas pressure imparting more energy than the recoil impulse?
You want to shoot these rifles much further with more potent ammunition compared to pistols, thus more force is necessary.
it looks like a carbine had sex with a '03 springfield.
Between the Winchester G30 and the Pederson which do you think is the better rifle?
Permission to say that this mag looks BADASS!!! :D
+Nerfin Merfitt Twas boi
Do you think The Cody Museum will open more of their collection to you sometime in the future?
Yes, I expect so.
+Forgotten Weapons Great to hear
It is so great that they have a so friendly curator, willing to let you show to us all the nice things! :D
This is the first rifle I've seen that uses an off-axis bolt. Do you think that a significant angle between the bolt and bore axis would have let them fire 30-06 in blowback or do you think it would still have extraction issues?
Blowback? No, definitely not.
Has this museum the Soviet АВС-36 (Simonov automatic rifle)? And of course Winchester-100? It would be intresting to look videos about these two items.
Yes, they actually do have an AVS-36. I didn't have a chance to look at it closely, though. Same with the Model 100.
Really neat rifle
seems like a quite violently operating system, that probably brings some extra weight to the system in the form of thicker parts.
I need a gif of Ian saying "Pwehhhh". For reasons.
that extended mag is wicked cool looking
don't let the libs brain wash you that is a standard mag
Part of me REALLY wishes that there was a firearms manufacturing company whose sole aim was to accurately reproduce functional and identical versions of weapons like this for purchase by enthusiasts. I know it's a niche market, I know it wouldn't be profitable. It's a cool dream, though.
Looks like if a M1903 and M1 carbine were mixed.
Find and do a video on the winchester Salvo rifles. please!!!!!!!
how do you get to see these guns at all of these museums and auction houses?
I ask nicely.
wow, i didn't know if you were going to reply 10/10 for being involved with the community
:)
they just bow down and deliver their old weird guns
Small anecdote, but I'd never heard of the Cody Firearms Museum before last week. I've been looking at flight costs to Wyoming because of Ian.
Just so I understand it correctly, the tappet system in this firearm is essentially a short stroke piston like can be found in the SKS?
+Tounushi okay, so pretty much the same principle but slightly different flavor in that it travels a shorter distance
What is the difference between a "tapit" gas system and a short-stroke system? Sorry if this has been asked before.
They're essentially the same.
That stock profile looks a lot like the later M1903's. I wonder if they did that to save money on the retooling to make stocks.
Looking at the development of the first successfully adopted self-loading rifles like the Garand I don’t understand why they didn’t go ahead and use detachable 10 or 20 round magazines.
The BAR and its variations were able to make it work so why wouldn’t it be feasible on a late 30’s early 40’s battle rifle?
Were the platforms not robust enough or was it an issue of streamlining production without the extra complication of a box fed magazine system, or ergonomics or potential training problems?
Clips were preferred by the military because they were less expensive, didn't interfere with a low prone position, and easy to carry.
Even in the '80s, authors like Chuck Taylor were opining in their books that detachable magazines were more fragile than a fixed internal magazine. And he was (otherwise) actually a fairly forward thinking guy for the time.
Awesome video, but what in the world is going on with the recommended videos? xD
I thought these looked really buttoned up until I saw the action being worked. Seems like mud or whatever would get dragged right inside.
Hey is there any way you could do a episode on rifle grenades?
Very cool
The G30M looks like it would survive your famous mud tests a lot better than the M1 Garand. Did they do any kind of dirt testing in the trials?
It looks like am elongated m1 carbine.
.........Hmmmmm I wonder why.
Were this my rifle, I'd apply WD40, Crud Cutter or similar to the Piston and gas vent hole. Then place a fired case in the chamber, and apply compressed air to the muzzle. That should free up the piston without damage. That failing, the bore could be filled with oil, included the piston chamber, then a bore diameter plug placed in the muzzle, and struck with a nylon face hammer. Love to see this rifle operational and fired.
How was the piston held in place originally?
Now that the design is to this level, this looks to be a good rifle design. It is a shame it did not go anywhere. The action is a bit more closed up compared to the Garand. That gas system I think is far better, sorry Ed Browning.
Almost looks like my old man's FN49
Any chance of seeing a T-31?
It seems that a Garand style rotating bolt traveling straight back and forth would require less space than the tilting bolt shown here. It would also allow elimination of the bolt tail and the recoil spring in the stock, which should make stock fabrication easier. Still an interesting system, and we know the tappet works well. Definitely had a lot of potential. Prototype and trials rifles are always very interesting. Great video as always. Thank you
Using what was basically a BAR magazine would have been a point in favor in my mind. Where the riflemen are using the same magazine as their support auto rifleman is. Then the BAR gunner can (if needed) scrounge magazines from the fallen and the out of combat wounded.without having to refill magazines.
The most benefit you'd get is probably just ease of manufacture... it looks like the mags for these g30s were nodded enough as to be substantially different.
+ToastytheG *modded
Yes I was thinking the same thing. That feature was a great selling point.
While I'm pretty sure it's only a visual resemblance, the G30M with the extended magazine looks a LOT like an M14.
So it more or less ended up as a marriage between the mechanical features of an M1 Carbine and a 1911, in 30-06.
Seems legit.
As a Canadian, hearing that the US government screwed us out of possibly getting a bunch of G30s really makes me really sad.
Why not just use regular BAR magazines? That would both simplify logistics and give the rifleman more firepower. I know there was a requirement for a flush magazine when the M1 was designed, but was that still a consideration?
Regular BAR mags are not very good mags. They work in the BAR, but not in actions with shorter bolt travel.
the preschool sidebar is slightly disconcerting
I still think Johnson's design is what people should have gone with.
It has a Ross Rifle esque look
Did you accidentally dissemble it again?
5:01 XD
looks like the M14 with the mag
I'm surprised they actually let you disassemble anything since it is a museum
He probably knows th curator personally. Plus they let him take it a part because he knows what he's doing.
Well the last rifle he took apart there he accidentally fixed a 50 year old problem. He has a good track record there, ha.
Hes Ian give me a break they probably contact him when they need to know how to disassemble some of the guns ;')
I can't believe their logic was you need tools to disassemble our gun for the field clean the last thing that a soldier needs is to have to carry a tool kit with them my gun is jammed I need to field strip and clean it oh heck I lost my screwdriver
It looks like a better rifle than the M1
Who?