Also the calf kick in MMA is lower risk because it's harder for the many wrestlers to catch, and obviously while kick catching exists in Kickboxing, it's more dangerous in MMA. Few guys will check kicks in MMA due to the risk of being taken down while on one leg. It's perfectly suited for MMA honestly
The guy presents a point and gives an argument that gives completely different result than what his point was and he doesnt realize it. Basically he said that caf kicks are good in mma cuz their legs arent as conditioned as the KB guys. Okay, so that would make caff kicks even more effective in KickBoxing, no? As they are not being used right now, guys arent prepared to deal with them. He claims mma guys cant take as many low kicks. If that was the case they wouldnt need to switch to a calf kick, and could continue kicking the legs above the thigh onto "weak mma legs". How does his logic work? What i hear is bias towards his discipline. I agree withh him on them not being a game changer.
I personally really like the idea of changing your guard and stance depending on the situation and that you can do something of the opponent allows it. People say you can't bob and weave in kickboxing because knees but you can still uppercut in boxing.
Knee and shin can catch you lower.. Boxers are not used to it.. Its all muscle memory.. That said you cant do most kicks against a good grappler like khabib.. Boxers have to close the gap quick to avoid kicks, connor changed his style, after the first calf kick he should have adapted. Muscle memory is hard to change and takes time to condition.
That’s a man that becomes articulate by being studious of his craft and being willing to share the information. He’s not coming up with answers on his own at all, he’s talking logic with previous examples off the top of his head to paint the picture for us. Wow. Could listen to it all day.
He'd be the best commentator ever at least in terms of understanding what's going on in the cage. Maybe Mike Goldberg would be the OG voice, but Bazooka Joe would certainly be the best in terms of understanding.
Hey guys, just want to say "Thanks" for the inspiration and quality content. I am a Wrestler who is now inspired to start Kickboxing. You guys have a welcoming vibe, unintimidating yet educational. I expect this channel to blow up in some months so it's cool to say I've come relatively early. All the best guys, excellent stuff.
The future of striking may be using more styles of footwork, movement, & stances than just 1 or 2. More practice of diff stances/exits with the knowledge of the purpose of them may lead to fluid striking masters. Right now we see more stance-switches than any time in the past- and more advanced fighters in general with better strategies/toolboxes than any time in the past so it's only a matter of time before someone gets great at doing something like transition from Philly Shell to... [arm out to create distance/barrier + switch stance] a muay thai stance where they can then launch a teep kick or feint 1 and come in with a 12 O clock rear elbow. I wanna try stuff like this myself but stupid lockdown from Covid has prevented me from ever sparring
Really enjoying these. Would be awesome if in one episode u spoke about elite kickboxers these days and their tactics. Are they different to the k1 max masato era?
I'm a long time MMA fan and I have to say there was a period where EVERYBODY was throwing leg kicks in MMA. Maybe it was around when Nick Diaz lost to Condit and when Silva lost to Weidman but everyone was definitely doing it and I would say majority still do- but they don't overuse it....Gaejthe did against Dustin- to the point that he neglected his boxing.
@@THIS---GUY Yes, you're right. I haven't seen the Diaz vs Condit fight in many years and now that I look back they were kicks on the thigh. Heh. Did Aldo and Jones throw calf kicks? Was it Israel that made it more popular? I know Cejudo had it done to him and that drew a lot of attention...
Benson Henderson (Former UFC LW Champ) was the most famous for using them. However, they've actually been around for much longer. Anderson Silva threw them back in the day.
I use the peek a boo style a lot during kickboxing sparring. I grew up a Tyson fan and I love boxing. I started out doing that at home for a few months before joining a gym. I have to switch guards a lot and fast for various reasons and it can deff have its faults trust me lol But it can also throw them off and work in your favor
Interesting that in the end you described keeping the lead hand lower for MMA. This helps defend takedown and maintain distance better than the Pilar as you mentioned. Different guards for different types of fighters and situations in the fight make sense as well. Good breakdown. 👍
They are talking about the Philly Shell in kickboxing. I think it would be less effective In Muay Thai, seems like it would be easy to get the plum on someone always bending at the waist.
@@stevebb2915 Lol me. Not so much. I learned that from watching a guy who is very knowledgeable on martial arts. His name is Sayf Carman. Check out his RUclips channel
That's so true, but back then the American kickboxing was more Karate influenced than the k1, or the ones we see it in glory, we must wait until a fighter of that style starts using it. At least for that set of rules works pretty well, thanks to Bill 🙏
When shoulder rolling you can easily throw a side kick. Then spin kick to the liver. Study James Toney. His shoulder rolll can be offensive. Like Joe said, use more than 1 guard. A fighter should know 3 guards and study pros and cons of all three. The high, long, and shell can work for kickboxing.
@@emilobey234 I mean, shit we can sprout wings and fly if you want to assume we aren't speaking within reason here, which should be assumed anyway. But since you want to go there, anything that is practical and has been used on a combat stage of any kind can work if used correctly.
I don't think you can really condition yourself much to take a calf kick. As one of the doctors explained it, the reason why it's easy to harm the peroneal nerve is because there's little to no muscle protecting the nerves that are responsible for the movement of the foot.
@@wrestler-kickboxer2524 tough to say if it will break your bones. But with the stance they have it's really just a small twist, pivot of the leg to make you hit full on block.
Philly shell I only use if its straight boxing. Kickboxing that lead leg is open to get blasted all day. MMA my stance is more between boxing stance and grappling stance. It is tricky though because if you are light on front leg take down is much easier for guys to hit. Grappling stance is wide to avoid the takedown. MMA I found I really just had to know the style of who I go with. I think that is just something you learn along the way. But I completely agree philly shell your lead leg is going to get blasted all day. Dustin has a nice way of blocking though. He blocks by trying to hit the incoming punch with point of the elbow I noticed. If you ever punched someone who defends like that you know how much that hurts even with gloves on. One guy at the gym is really good at blocking like that. Throw kicks high and he will get it with the below 7 out of 10 times. Dustin has that mastered though with punch defense using elbows
I feel like Joe missed the biggest reason, MMA has adopted more of a boxing centric approach ro striking and wrestlings influence leads to fighters being much heavier on their lead leg which makes it far more difficult to check kicks. The other parts I agree with though.
Asual brilliant knowledge and breakdown from bazooka joe !!!, best you tube guy around,and great discussion with the philly shell as think it works great,but only in small times of use,he’s spot on calf kicks not really that important in kickboxing as there elite strikers and used to leg kicks,Mma fighters are just not at that elite level !!!but to be fair also in there defence have to worry about so many different other weapons coming at them to,
Id still suggest not using it in mma bc keeping ur lead hand that close to ur body is just asking to be taken down or clinched cuz u cant get ur underhook in if u want to use a philly shell type defense watch izzy he keeps his lead hand low but out so he can catch body kicks but it works for him cuz hes really rangy n can see u shootin from a mile away n hell just pull the head kicks instead of blocking so it can wrk just under a bunch of variables that u may not even have control over
The Philly shell doesn’t work in kb. Are you gonna try to headkicks on your shoulder? You’d also have to be at an angle which would leave you open to leg kicks.
The Karate style is a great antithesis of the Muay Thai stance, but the Thai stance will absolutely ruin a boxing stance and that's what happened to Conor
@@reservoirfrogs2177 I dont think it is. The Muay thai stance ruins both the boxing and karate stance. You should watch Bazooka Joe's fight with Raymond Daniels. Daniels is an amazing karate fighter but he got his legs destroyed and then knocked out. Nothing is stopping from Muay thai or kickboxers from going into a karate stance but they usually don't because its harder to stop kicks.
Guys like joe valtellini, should be in conors camp for his next fight. The kickboxing/muay thai knowledge and experience valtellini would bring to conors camp would be amazing. Plus he could give conor some good sparring session. To help gain experience in the kickboxing department.
I personally think they work just not as much. Like I’ve seen in Muay Thai (rarely mind you) when someone goes to check a kick and they put their calf in the way instead and get finished, but because they’re stance and style of fighting this rarely happens. For the philly shell kinda the same idea
the point you are missing here bro is if you try to check kick in mma you are extremely vulnerable to getting takendown and conor catched porier's kicks if some wrestler was in the place of dustin he could have taken him down
Yea but no wrestler would be in Mcgregor’s stance to begin with. Dustin would probably not throw calf kicks on a squared stance. He’d just pepper him with boxing. It’s much harder to catch kicks in Mcgregor’s stance and Dustin knows this.
Its all situational though. You gotta understand your match up and read your opponent. You can't just start doing that shit soon as the bell/timer starts in the centre of the ring. It all depends what's going on
No anything new about Calf kick low kick leg kick, i saw it all in MT match in Thailand since i was young. And i saw Changpreuk did it to Rufus long time ago.
Like when Real Deal tried it with Holzken in their rematch to negate Nieky's combos. Didnt really work. Kudos to Daniel's for trying something different, but yeah. I agree with you. The philly shell seems more tailored strictly for boxing.
what's fucked up about this is.. even if you start getting a grasp of how to defend striking variations... you then meet a khabib or a dangerous BJJ guy.. it's endless. Respect fighters
Man, Baz Joe should have been the one battling Firas Zahabi in the RUclips UFC 1 style championship final, not Sensei Seth. Love Seth but Joe would beat him in the semifinal.
Damn he really breaks it down good!
Also the calf kick in MMA is lower risk because it's harder for the many wrestlers to catch, and obviously while kick catching exists in Kickboxing, it's more dangerous in MMA. Few guys will check kicks in MMA due to the risk of being taken down while on one leg. It's perfectly suited for MMA honestly
Exactly
Khabib caught Gaethje's calf kick and took him down.
@@zimelo6957 that wasn’t a calf kick
@@PiffFighting yes it was a calf kick!
Watch at 7:40 in the fight ruclips.net/video/MQcXEWPesAw/видео.html
The guy presents a point and gives an argument that gives completely different result than what his point was and he doesnt realize it. Basically he said that caf kicks are good in mma cuz their legs arent as conditioned as the KB guys. Okay, so that would make caff kicks even more effective in KickBoxing, no? As they are not being used right now, guys arent prepared to deal with them. He claims mma guys cant take as many low kicks. If that was the case they wouldnt need to switch to a calf kick, and could continue kicking the legs above the thigh onto "weak mma legs". How does his logic work? What i hear is bias towards his discipline.
I agree withh him on them not being a game changer.
I personally really like the idea of changing your guard and stance depending on the situation and that you can do something of the opponent allows it. People say you can't bob and weave in kickboxing because knees but you can still uppercut in boxing.
Knee and shin can catch you lower.. Boxers are not used to it.. Its all muscle memory.. That said you cant do most kicks against a good grappler like khabib.. Boxers have to close the gap quick to avoid kicks, connor changed his style, after the first calf kick he should have adapted. Muscle memory is hard to change and takes time to condition.
@@boshirahmed the point is when you're s skilled striker, bobbing and weaving type head movement does work in mma.
That’s a man that becomes articulate by being studious of his craft and being willing to share the information. He’s not coming up with answers on his own at all, he’s talking logic with previous examples off the top of his head to paint the picture for us. Wow. Could listen to it all day.
Bazooka Joe should do a few UFC fight night commentarys. I'd like to hear his input. Maybe work his way up to the UFC analytical team.
He'd be the best commentator ever at least in terms of understanding what's going on in the cage. Maybe Mike Goldberg would be the OG voice, but Bazooka Joe would certainly be the best in terms of understanding.
Hey guys, just want to say "Thanks" for the inspiration and quality content. I am a Wrestler who is now inspired to start Kickboxing. You guys have a welcoming vibe, unintimidating yet educational. I expect this channel to blow up in some months so it's cool to say I've come relatively early. All the best guys, excellent stuff.
Always great to hear a true expert give his take on subjects. Good stuff.
MMA is a game of constant adaptation, who ever capitalizes on an opponent who doesn’t adapt, will win.
And kickboxing is fake fighting.
way to state the obvious
@@chitoes1707 and no
@@somedude4693 and yes
@@chitoes1707 lol what? Explain so we can have a proper internet fight.
The future of striking may be using more styles of footwork, movement, & stances than just 1 or 2. More practice of diff stances/exits with the knowledge of the purpose of them may lead to fluid striking masters. Right now we see more stance-switches than any time in the past- and more advanced fighters in general with better strategies/toolboxes than any time in the past so it's only a matter of time before someone gets great at doing something like transition from Philly Shell to... [arm out to create distance/barrier + switch stance] a muay thai stance where they can then launch a teep kick or feint 1 and come in with a 12 O clock rear elbow. I wanna try stuff like this myself but stupid lockdown from Covid has prevented me from ever sparring
Agree to but the problem is gonna be the iq of people and coaches to apply most people fall into old patterns
You already see this type of striking in the lighter weight classes. TJ Dillashaw was probably the best stance switcher in the game.
100% agreed
some great insights from Joe, particularly the upward punches from philly shell as a threat to wrestlers.
Really enjoying these. Would be awesome if in one episode u spoke about elite kickboxers these days and their tactics. Are they different to the k1 max masato era?
Thais>western kickboxers
I'm a long time MMA fan and I have to say there was a period where EVERYBODY was throwing leg kicks in MMA. Maybe it was around when Nick Diaz lost to Condit and when Silva lost to Weidman but everyone was definitely doing it and I would say majority still do- but they don't overuse it....Gaejthe did against Dustin- to the point that he neglected his boxing.
Kicks work against an oponent who has a similar high stance, once a low or sqaure stance, kicks are too risky for getting it grabbed by a grappler.
Historically most leg kicks were to the thighs now you rarely see thigh kicks and everything is targeted at the lower leg.
@@THIS---GUY Yes, you're right. I haven't seen the Diaz vs Condit fight in many years and now that I look back they were kicks on the thigh. Heh. Did Aldo and Jones throw calf kicks? Was it Israel that made it more popular? I know Cejudo had it done to him and that drew a lot of attention...
Benson Henderson (Former UFC LW Champ) was the most famous for using them. However, they've actually been around for much longer. Anderson Silva threw them back in the day.
I use the peek a boo style a lot during kickboxing sparring.
I grew up a Tyson fan and I love boxing. I started out doing that at home for a few months before joining a gym.
I have to switch guards a lot and fast for various reasons and it can deff have its faults trust me lol
But it can also throw them off and work in your favor
Everyone talking about calf kicks like its a new thing is imbaressing
true, it’s so weird they’re talking about it that way
I know right?! I was doing calf kicks in schoolyard fights 25 years ago before I even knew about MMA lol
Even more embarrassing, spelling the word 'imbaressing'
no one is, people are mentioning it because of how devasting it was to Conor and y'know he just had a fight.
Thought i was the only one.. lmao like what ? Its been around for awhile
What amazing breakdown, certainly a guy that knows what he’s talking about ! Subscribing right now 👍🏻
back in the day, bill wallace fought out of the philly shell basically. but he didn't have to worry about leg kicks.
Give me link boi
Surprised we never got to hear your thoughts on holloway vs kattar
Wanted to hear his thoughts also
love your explanation on calf kicks thanks
Shout-out to Samkor & Dany Bill, two legendary leg destroyers ☠️
Or Ernesto hoost, bills sweeps were beautiful though
Dany Bill most underrated combat sport guy ever imo
the sound effect at 6:18 is hilarious
Brilliant question about philly shell and we’ll answered.
Also something which is rarely talked about or enforced in most k1
rules you have to kick 3 inch above the knee
Interesting that in the end you described keeping the lead hand lower for MMA. This helps defend takedown and maintain distance better than the Pilar as you mentioned.
Different guards for different types of fighters and situations in the fight make sense as well. Good breakdown. 👍
Man, I love Joe's videos and interviews.
Excellent advice again thanks joe!
Incredibly insightful.
They are talking about the Philly Shell in kickboxing. I think it would be less effective In Muay Thai, seems like it would be easy to get the plum on someone always bending at the waist.
Really good explanation by Joe.
Love the podcast!
"it skips off and... Bing"
beautiful insight
Man dropping gems
Bill Wallace was a kickboxer who used the Philly Shell
a man who knows his history
@@stevebb2915 Lol me. Not so much. I learned that from watching a guy who is very knowledgeable on martial arts. His name is Sayf Carman. Check out his RUclips channel
That's so true, but back then the American kickboxing was more Karate influenced than the k1, or the ones we see it in glory, we must wait until a fighter of that style starts using it. At least for that set of rules works pretty well, thanks to Bill 🙏
When shoulder rolling you can easily throw a side kick. Then spin kick to the liver. Study James Toney. His shoulder rolll can be offensive. Like Joe said, use more than 1 guard. A fighter should know 3 guards and study pros and cons of all three. The high, long, and shell can work for kickboxing.
Also raise your elbow when shoulder rolling, it will hit the shin or instep then sidekick.
Great breakdown! Thank you :)
fantastic video. thank you.
Very very good explanation. Thank you!
Joe knows his stuff🔥
Anything can work if you use it correctly.
Oh yea I can’t wait to use my tai chi power blast and my pressure point knock outs
@@emilobey234 we already know those aren't even practical, so they aren't even a part of the conversation. Don't play me lol.
@@tmcdougald anything can work if you use it correctly
@@emilobey234 I mean, shit we can sprout wings and fly if you want to assume we aren't speaking within reason here, which should be assumed anyway. But since you want to go there, anything that is practical and has been used on a combat stage of any kind can work if used correctly.
Very smart man
"when it hits the shoulder and skips off the temple and boom you go ouuuwt" boom you know he's Canadian lol my man Valtellini
I don't think you can really condition yourself much to take a calf kick. As one of the doctors explained it, the reason why it's easy to harm the peroneal nerve is because there's little to no muscle protecting the nerves that are responsible for the movement of the foot.
Excellent video
The man bazooka
Try a calf kick in Thailand a sure way to break your own bones.
Why?
The same thing and even worse can happen if you kick the thigh
@@wrestler-kickboxer2524 tough to say if it will break your bones. But with the stance they have it's really just a small twist, pivot of the leg to make you hit full on block.
So what you're saying is that if you've secured a takedown, go for a charley horse! 😂
calf kick been around longer than these dudes been alive lol wtf
What’s the point of this comment lmao.
Philly shell I only use if its straight boxing. Kickboxing that lead leg is open to get blasted all day. MMA my stance is more between boxing stance and grappling stance. It is tricky though because if you are light on front leg take down is much easier for guys to hit. Grappling stance is wide to avoid the takedown.
MMA I found I really just had to know the style of who I go with. I think that is just something you learn along the way. But I completely agree philly shell your lead leg is going to get blasted all day. Dustin has a nice way of blocking though. He blocks by trying to hit the incoming punch with point of the elbow I noticed. If you ever punched someone who defends like that you know how much that hurts even with gloves on. One guy at the gym is really good at blocking like that. Throw kicks high and he will get it with the below 7 out of 10 times. Dustin has that mastered though with punch defense using elbows
Dustin Poirier uses it often
I feel like Joe missed the biggest reason, MMA has adopted more of a boxing centric approach ro striking and wrestlings influence leads to fighters being much heavier on their lead leg which makes it far more difficult to check kicks. The other parts I agree with though.
Asual brilliant knowledge and breakdown from bazooka joe !!!, best you tube guy around,and great discussion with the philly shell as think it works great,but only in small times of use,he’s spot on calf kicks not really that important in kickboxing as there elite strikers and used to leg kicks,Mma fighters are just not at that elite level !!!but to be fair also in there defence have to worry about so many different other weapons coming at them to,
Makes sense that implies that philly shell can be used against a bad kicker
Id still suggest not using it in mma bc keeping ur lead hand that close to ur body is just asking to be taken down or clinched cuz u cant get ur underhook in if u want to use a philly shell type defense watch izzy he keeps his lead hand low but out so he can catch body kicks but it works for him cuz hes really rangy n can see u shootin from a mile away n hell just pull the head kicks instead of blocking so it can wrk just under a bunch of variables that u may not even have control over
I don't see Calf kicks in Muay Thai very often,anyone knows why??
Because it's easy to block
The Philly shell doesn’t work in kb. Are you gonna try to headkicks on your shoulder? You’d also have to be at an angle which would leave you open to leg kicks.
I think conor almost looked down on that muay thai style and he often thought his precision would always win out
The Karate style is a great antithesis of the Muay Thai stance, but the Thai stance will absolutely ruin a boxing stance and that's what happened to Conor
@@reservoirfrogs2177 yeah I just think him neglecting muay thai rang true for his whole career
@@reservoirfrogs2177 I dont think it is. The Muay thai stance ruins both the boxing and karate stance. You should watch Bazooka Joe's fight with Raymond Daniels. Daniels is an amazing karate fighter but he got his legs destroyed and then knocked out. Nothing is stopping from Muay thai or kickboxers from going into a karate stance but they usually don't because its harder to stop kicks.
Guys like joe valtellini, should be in conors camp for his next fight. The kickboxing/muay thai knowledge and experience valtellini would bring to conors camp would be amazing. Plus he could give conor some good sparring session. To help gain experience in the kickboxing department.
I personally think they work just not as much. Like I’ve seen in Muay Thai (rarely mind you) when someone goes to check a kick and they put their calf in the way instead and get finished, but because they’re stance and style of fighting this rarely happens. For the philly shell kinda the same idea
Theres alot of mma fighters who were professional kickboxers before lol
You dont have to worry about a guy blasting a double leg in kickboxing
No the stances are different to where calf kicks are more available in an mma fight
Why calf kicks seem to be a new moves loll
the point you are missing here bro is if you try to check kick in mma you are extremely vulnerable to getting takendown and conor catched porier's kicks if some wrestler was in the place of dustin he could have taken him down
Yea but no wrestler would be in Mcgregor’s stance to begin with. Dustin would probably not throw calf kicks on a squared stance. He’d just pepper him with boxing. It’s much harder to catch kicks in Mcgregor’s stance and Dustin knows this.
This guy looks Gabriel rosado
Super foot Wallace used a Philly shell
I believe he fought under a ruleset that didn't allow lowkicks which are the main reason Joe doesn't recommend that stance in modern kickboxing.
He never leg kicked
get on JRE again please
Ohhhh so that's how you K.O Mayweather 😂
Philly shell in a bladed stance say goodbye to your front leg, watch alexei ignashov fight a world champ boxer and youll see what happens.
Its all situational though.
You gotta understand your match up and read your opponent. You can't just start doing that shit soon as the bell/timer starts in the centre of the ring.
It all depends what's going on
No anything new about Calf kick low kick leg kick, i saw it all in MT match in Thailand since i was young.
And i saw Changpreuk did it to Rufus long time ago.
100.000 leg kicks in 100 fights is equal to 1000 leg kicks a fight.
every move is situational, hmm well Philly shell works if a dude is throwing a punch, but throw in a kick and it fucks up the whole dynamic.
The fighters in Kickboxing are better at checking calf kicks so it's not as effective as it would be in MMA. As for Philly Shell I have no idea.
I use a philly shell i knock out everyond and get knocked out by everyone
the Philly Shell is not a good idea against a Competent Kicker.
It's always a battle of range
Like when Real Deal tried it with Holzken in their rematch to negate Nieky's combos. Didnt really work. Kudos to Daniel's for trying something different, but yeah. I agree with you. The philly shell seems more tailored strictly for boxing.
It also opens you up to have your front leg grabbed.
Or you can use a muay Thai guard
Philly shell and shoulder roll are a prevention and cure to punching problems. Not kicking problem
You think MMA fighters can't take leg kicks? Ever heard of Faber when he fought Aldo and GSP when he fought Alves
They’re just not as conditioned as kickboxers. And with most mma stances they’re vulnerable to this.
what's fucked up about this is.. even if you start getting a grasp of how to defend striking variations... you then meet a khabib or a dangerous BJJ guy.. it's endless. Respect fighters
It's a kin to asking a chess master if he's worried about a pawn
Man, Baz Joe should have been the one battling Firas Zahabi in the RUclips UFC 1 style championship final, not Sensei Seth. Love Seth but Joe would beat him in the semifinal.
The guy didnt mention the threat of takedowns even once. Too much of a kickboxer mindset i guess.
👍👍👍
A good boxer can beat any muay thai guy with one arm
Even in K1 the guy with the best hands tends to win
You should go in and fight for the lumpinee title then. Easy with your superior boxing.
There's a reason Floyd didn't fight Tenshin under kickboxing or Muay Thai rules. Philly shell gets worked.
A simple no would have worked. MMA and kick boxing two different animals, why? Insert plug 🔌.