Ancient Faith Today - Will All Be Saved? Examining Universalism and the Last Judgement (w/ Fr. Tom)
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
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Ancient Faith Today - Will All Be Saved? Examining Universalism and the Last Judgement (w/ Fr. Tom)
#orthodoxchurch #easternorthodox #orthodoxy #ancientfaith
Thank you Fr. Tom for showing kindness and respect to every interviewer. This unbiased approach is not only humble, but inspiring and well appreciated.
I like the very end. The call to daily repentance, humility, and love should be supreme in our lives as Orthodox.
The arguments for universalism are deeply compelling.
Yes, they are. Universalism has the three-legged stool of support: Sacred Scripture from the Greek (i.e. PROPERLY interpreted), the Fathers of the Church and the first 500 years of the Church, in which Universalism was believed and taught by a large mass of people, and finally, and most important, the character of God, who is LOVE.
Hellism, or the belief in eternal torment, stands on three rotten legs which are about to collapse: the Western (Latin) translation of Scripture, which is horribly wrong, a few Fathers of the Church, and the idea that God is angry, vengeful, and like the pagan "gods" of old who in their character are like savages.
The greatest problem we face is that somehow, the Universalism of the first 500 years of the Church was slowly eroded and taken away, and as hellism became the overarching teaching of the West, it has come to be accepted as truth without question. Add to that the many bogus "visions" and "dreams" of hell (the holy Fathers of Mt. Athos strictly warn us against putting confidence in any such experiences!!) and you have a large mountain to climb.
Exactly what I was thinking!
I am blown away by how good the arguments are for Universalism!
I like this way of putting things by St Gregory the Theologian:
I know also a fire that does not purify but indeed punishes: either the fire of Sodom, which the Lord rains down on all sinners mixed with brimstone and tempest; or that prepared for the devil and his angels; or that which goes forth before the face of the Lord and burns up his enemies all around; and, what is even more fearful than these, that which does not rest and is deployed with the worm, which is not extinguished but remains forever for the wicked. For all these fires belong to the destroying power, unless some prefer even here to understand this fire as showing more love to humankind, in a way worthy of the punisher.
Why are we even having this discussion. This was condemned.
Do you think so? Where? Surely, you aren't referring to the 5th Ec. Council...
But, look, if the idea of sinners being saved is so loathsome to you, you are welcome not to think about it.
Scripture says and Ozzy sings, "Day of Judgment God is Calling!"
Question for AFR to answer: does the concept of Universalism fall into the category of theologoumena?
You would have to ask your priest or someone more qualified for an answer on that
@@AncientFaithMinistries Thanks for answering. Respectfully, I think it is important for you to know this before understanding if/how to make spiritually beneficial presentations on the topic.
@@nonnymoose6260 There is no official catalog in Orthodoxy of theologumena. As many of the presentations clearly state, the idea that all are eventually saved (or put another way, that the punishment of hell is not eternal) has been condemned in various ways and at various times, most explicitly in the Synodikon of 843. However, this does not mean that a few Orthodox Fathers and later writers and theologians have not asserted the idea of eventual universal salvation.
Father Tom, that makes it sound like it would fall into the category of theologoumena - therefore, my understanding is that, despite those few Fathers assertions, the idea is contrary to Orthodox tradition, and it should be rejected and disregarded by the faithful rather than explored as a possible alternative teaching for the Orthodox to subscribe to. Imho, it seems unwise to give air time to people who are teaching against Orthodox tradition on this channel - it could just lead to confusion among some of the listeners. Just expressing my honest critique.
@@nonnymoose6260 I understand that there are some who fear giving those who may hold unOrthodox positions any air time. This has never been my approach. Instead, I am of the opinion that answering them directly so that we can uphold the Orthodox faith is ultimately more effective.
How do we listen to the individual interviews?
ruclips.net/video/AcCQOPw_0rw/видео.html&pp=iAQB
Glad you asked! You can find them in this playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLZxCUWw2kdo0RNDxCTxNIyAoaxz02-Gio
@@AncientFaithMinistries thanks!!!
"I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and He heard me. Out of the belly of hell cried I, and Thou heardest my voice." - Jonah 2:2
Jonah repented in hell. This proves that post-mortem repentance is possible, contrary to what they say in the interviews.
I am an orthodox Christian and this podcast was very difficult and a little disturbing to hear in some parts.
First of all the different views and inconsistencies on the orthodox stance on Universal salvation.
The biggest issue I have is that if there is a chance of Universal Salvation and everyone is saved then Orthodoxy doesn’t really matter.
Why take communion?
Why go to confession?
Why Repent?
And why does it matter if you’re Protestant , Catholic, or Orthodox ?
If confident universalism is preached then I don’t have to struggle and do all this asceticism Orthodoxy suggests.
Especially fasting.
Yeah there may be some consequences in the in between stage when soul is separated from body,
But ultimately I will be saved so why all the religion and more importantly
Orthodoxy?
Thank you.
@billkanelopoulos it was a documentary which refuted those who assert universalism. You can't refute someone unless they articulate their POV. Otherwise, those who hold the Orthodox position are accused of misrepresenting the "confident universalist" position.
You really haven't thought this the whole way through. You need to imagine what the world would be like circa AD 30 and before, when the darkness of mankind ruled. We are getting a taste of it today. Do you like women being treated as sexual chattel? Do you like thieves and robbers breaking into your computer to rob you blind? Do you like the hatred among races and peoples? Do you like people enslaved to pornography, drugs, alcohol, and other addictions which tear apart lives and families. Look at the condition of the world today and ask yourself if this is the way that you want life to be and if this is what God has in mind for us to have "life more abundantly."
All of the goodness that is in the world comes from changed lives, lives that are changed by the Holy Spirit and the Sacraments of the Church. Without them, we are barbarians and life is a constant struggle just to survive the behavior of others. As our world gets farther and farther from Christ, we are seeing it plunge deeper and deeper into this darkness. Do you like it?
Only the life-giving Gospel will change hearts and lives here and now, regardless of whether there is Universal salvation or not. My coming to believe in Universal Salvation has not changed me one iota. I have not returned to drugs, fornication, drunken binges, and other horrors of life which I had without Christ. Why? Because I don't want to return to an unending (at least in this life and part of the next) nightmare. Life without Christ is a nightmare, and we need to tell people that there is a full and joyful life in Him. People are looking for that which will make their lives meaningful and good, and they are not finding it outside of Christ. Because of this, the world suffers.
Orthodoxy matters. The Sacraments matter. And Universal Salvation matters also because people are tired of hearing of a vicious God who exacts a revenge far beyond what is required of justice. Since almost everyone has heard of the idea of an eternal hell and yet people in this age are filled with violence, greed, sexual lust, and a multitude of other sins, I would say that the threat of hell isn't doing a very good job of scaring people to Christ. Maybe hearing of the abundant love of God will do what fear cannot do.
You said "Yeah there may be some consequences in the in between stage when soul is separated from body," I'm going to tell you something you need to understand. I had a very small taste of hell 20 years ago. Hell is when you come to Christ and you stand in the truth of what you have done with no excuses. I experienced an inner revelation like this regarding how I treated my first wife before she passed. I thought I was a real good Christian because I kept all the rules and believed the right things. But I was harsh and unloving, and when God showed that to me -- my friend, you DO NOT want to experience the fiery pain of truth such as I did. One second into the hell of truth and people will wish they hadn't been so cavalier about their lives. I just got a very small taste of this. I cannot begin to imagine the level of pain that awaits the wicked as they are chastened for their wicked lives.
Universalism does not change the fact that our world needs the Gospel and people need Christ. Without Him there is nothing but evil, pain, and sorrow. Will some people abuse this knowledge? Yes, of course. That's human nature. But it does not change the love of God, the consequences of our sins, and the need for the Gospel to change the world.
@@tomsoroka With all due respect to you as one of God's chosen priests -- the documentary did nothing of the sort. The evidence is far, FAR too great on the side of Universalism and you hardly scratched the surface of the issue. It really wasn't even a debate, per se, which would have been far better in order for those on the Universalist side to ask some probing questions. For instance, David Bentley Hart's first meditation in his book in which he asks the simple question (which has gone yet unanswered) - if God foreknew that to do the creation would result in the eternal suffering of billions of sentient beings, without relief, remedy, or even good purpose, why then did He go forward with it and of what character would be such a God who would do such a thing? After all, if He foreknew the outcome of the fall would have such results, and yet He went ahead with creation, then the heretical Calvinists are correct and it was His inscrutable will from the beginning to create the majority of mankind for one purpose only - to suffer horribly for all eternity.
Perhaps you would like to take a crack at answering this?
@@IrishEddie317 why put David Bentley Hart's name on it? That same blasphemy was spoken from the beginning. And for that reason our Lord said of the betrayer "it would be better had he not been born".
Imagine that there is a painful, debilitating disease that goes away after 10 years if untreated, but in weeks if treated. Would it be right to proclaim “why even bother getting treated if it will eventually go away on its own?,” or would it be better to get treated and back to health in a few weeks rather than enduring ten years of suffering?
This is analogous to the fallacious reasoning behind the “why even bother if everyone will be saved?” perspective. The Christian way of life is beneficial here and now, for the problems we face in our current lived reality.
Even more concerning than this, though, is that it betrays how difficult it is for some Christians to see beyond fear-based religion. The most obvious answer to “why be Christian if everyone will be saved?” is love, and the fact this escapes so many is quite telling.
After listening to most of this podcast, I have to say that I am profoundly disappointed in it. There are so many errors from the hellists that were not attacked and dismantled, such as the statement that there are "so many scriptures that speak of the eternality of hell." Balderdash!!! The KJV and the Douay-Rheims are two of the most horrible translations of the Greek that have infested the earth. There is no verse of Scripture that states talks about hell or eternality.
A.) Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus DO NOT MEAN HELL!!! They mean exactly what they say, that is, Sheol (Hades in the NT) is simply the place where souls went to await the coming of Christ and His victory on the Cross. Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem. No Jew listening to Jesus speak of "Gehenna" would have thought of a place of eternal, fiery, burning torment. He would have gone away puzzled and wondering what it meant that people would wind up in the Valley of Hinnom. This is ATROCIOUS Bible exegesis. You don't change the meaning of words to support the agenda you are determined to defend!!!
B.) Dr. Illaria Ramelli, a brilliant Greek scholar, has written a book of over 700 pages in which she clearly defines that the word "aionios" in the Greek text of the Scriptures means "age-lasting." The same is true of the Hebrew word which is translated "eternal" in the OT - onan. It in no way connotes the idea of never-ending, and one of the speakers even brought forth this point in his confusion over God's promise of an "everlasting" covenant and then the fact that this covenant was later destroyed.
C.) Some of the worst thinking comes at the end of the blog in the section about "Repentance after death." The idea that I can somehow "repent for another person" is laughable. Have these men forgotten that this is a very PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP which is likened in Scripture to marriage? I can't marry a woman for another man, and neither can I repent for another person who has spent his/her whole life hating God and wanting nothing to do with Him. Repentance is personal, and if what these men are saying is true, that through my prayers God will have mercy on the obdurate, disobedient, and God-hating soul, and thus bring it to salvation (AGAINST ITS OWN WILL!!) then this is the very determinism which they all to a man decried in the podcast. Do they not realize this??? If God just merely forgives, then let Him forgive all and be done with it. On the other hand, it would seem more reasonable that my prayers for the deceased would help them to come to the point of repentance so that they could do what they need to do - kneel before Christ and beg forgiveness because they have had a change of mind.
Furthermore, the hellists insist that because there will be no body present, the souls of the wicked will not be able to repent because they body is needed for repentance. This is WRONG on two counts: 1.) Repentance (metanoia) simply means "to change the mind." Thus, we see that a body is not needed for repentance (changing the mind) because some of the angels changed their minds and rebelled against God and were cast out of heaven, right? THEY DIDN'T HAVE BODIES!!! 2.) Those being interviewed admitted that all bodies shall be resurrected and joined to their souls. Thus, what they are saying contradicts their assertion that souls will not be able to repent because they will not have bodies. What they are really saying is that God will not allow them to repent once they have seen their sins and wish to turn from their ways to the living God. Is that the God of love, that He only allows repentance in this life. Furthermore, what of those who are psychologically damaged from abuse in this life and go into sin, hardened against life and God? What of those who have never heard and have no idea of what sin is (I am thinking of pagan tribes who have never heard the Gospel.)
D.) There was no discussion of the character of God and of David Bentley Hart's First Meditation on God - Creatio Ex Nihlo. We agree that God is all-knowing, standing outside of time and knowing the beginning from the end. Thus, He knew that mankind would fall and (if eternal hell is true) that BILLIONS of sentient beings would spend forever in unspeakable torments. Yet, having NO NEED to create because He, God, is perfect and lacking in nothing, and knowing that the fall would take place and thus doom billions, He went ahead with creation anyway. This means that the suffering of billions for all eternity is the will of God from the beginning of mortal time. Of what character would you say would be a Being who would do such a thing when there was no need so to do? Is that love, or an action that is so heinous that it defies any attempt to describe it?
E.) Luke 16 is a PARABLE!!!! It is not reality, yet constantly hellists treat it as if it is a real description of life immediately after death. It is a parable which, like Matthew 21: 33-46, Jesus spoke in the presence of the Pharisees and in which He CONDEMNS THEM and all of Israel for her apostasy. The rich man is symbolic of national Israel. The poor man is the Gentiles. The riches of the rich man is the Law of God and the relationship with God through the ordinances of Judaism, which the poor man, the Gentile nations, did not have. Note that the rich man was dressed in "purple and fine linens." Well, GUESS WHAT???
That's the dress code of the Levitical priesthood!!! It is also the clothing of the tabernacle in the wilderness. LOOK IT UP!!!
The torment of the rich man and the separation from Abraham's bosom is the ending of the Covenant of God with Israel and being separated from being the special people of God. Everything that Israel had was lost upon the killing of their Messiah. It destroyed their covenant with God (symbolized by the tearing of the veil of the Temple, thus exposing the Holiest of All and thus ending Yom Kippur for Israel) and cast them out of the status of being God's chosen people.
Every Jew listening to this, especially the Pharisees would have immediately known that this parable was spoken against them, yet those who are determined to make God a God of revenge, see the words "tormented" and "flame" assume that this means that there is an eternal hell.
Hellists don't have a leg upon which to stand, other than their corrupted Scriptures, a few Fathers of the Church, and the idea that somehow, God needs to extract a violent revenge upon those who have sinned rather than being a true Father and healing them, no matter how long that process takes.