Geoff! I work as a part of the East Coast Digitalisation Programme and may be able to help you make contact with a few of the people involved with the First in Class fitment of a Class 66 Freight Train at DBCargo's depot in Doncaster. The people there are lovely and would no doubt be more than happy to provide you with some insight into how ETCS will be affecting the Freight community (maybe even set you up with a depot visit to see where the magic happens)!
ETCS operates within a wider framework known as ERTMS (European Rail Traffic Management System). Once the Northern City Line is ready, the rest of the East Coast Main Line from King's Cross to Stoke (between Grantham and Peterborough) will be upgraded to ERTMS (with a long-term vision of ERTMS all the way to Edinburgh). Then the legacy line-side signals will be removed too, so all trains operating will be required to be ERTMS-equipped. One of the biggest benefactors of the East Coast Digital Programme, as it's called, will be the InterCity operators LNER, Hull Trains, and Lumo. Their Hitachi (Azuma, Paragon) trains will be upgraded to run at 140 mph rather than the current 125 mph. There are no plans to fit ERTMS to the InterCity 225s, which means, as things stand, they will be phased out before the line-side signals are removed.
@@bfapple That's true. The Mark 3 OLE used on the ECML was designed for speeds of 100 mph, not even 125, let alone 140. It's why the ECML suffers from frequent dewirements - the OLE is completely overwhelmed with so many high speed trains using it at the same time. Headspans are the main culprit, and the masts are also much further apart than the WCML. However, rebuilding the OLE is by no means an easy job. Level crossing closures is a long term goal, which should hopefully happen anyway. However, if we think realistically here. It's not like being hit by a train at 140 is significantly less survivable than being hit by a train at 125. Both will kill you instantly. Barriers on the fast lines make sense, but Potters Bar for instance has trains passing at 115 mph without barriers, and I've never seen anyone get pulled too close there. However, the main point I was making was that the fitment of ERTMS will remove the most major obstacle to 140 mph running. When the InterCity 225s came out the lack of in-cab signalling was the primary, if not the only, reason why they were limited to 125 mph in passenger service, despite being tested at 140 mph.
@@bfapple There was an incident some months ago when the Thameslink semifast, which runs fast from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park, got horribly late, and ended up stopping on the fast line platform so it could make up some of the time (and to avoid getting stuck behind the all-stops service which had by this time gone ahead of it). With fencing on the fast lines, this would not be possible (though it is possible to fit sliding fence gates like those at other stations). The next time the train got that delayed, the train stopped on the slow platform but moved onto the fast line just after leaving. This would have to be the way it's done in future. Once I was coming into Elstree on the MML, Thameslink services run 24-hours and it was the middle of the night, the train was a Brighton to Bedford all-stations service and it was running on the fast lines, because no other passenger services were using them (at night the only Thameslink services that run are Bedford to Brighton all-stations, and EMR trains don't run). When we got into the station, the gate across the stairs to the footbridge was open so we could go through.
The infrastructure isn’t fit for 140mph…. The current geometry isn’t suitable for 125mph in places - hence the lower speeds. The dynamic forces exerted by trains > 125mph would also change the service life of some component’s….
So that's why they were diverting the trains from Finsbury park to Kings cross almost every weekend the other year! Love the Northern and City line! Hope they get increased frequency eventually and maybe some nice new developments near their stops
I'm a signalling engineer for the Bucharest metro. I worked with Alstom on implementing a similar system for our Line 5. Hopefully I'll get to ride a ETCS equipped Class 700 😊
As a young teenager, I rode the Standard Stock from Moorgate, and more recently the 717 stock. Really fascinated to see that line is "honoured" to be where this Signalling Upgrade is rolling out!
It’s my company doing the designs. I’m not directly involved, but Tornado is an interesting challenge - how to interface with the drivers on a unique environment.
I am guessing in the future when the system is countrywide, all locos will need to have it fitted - will be interesting to see how it will be fitted into the entire heritage fleet of locos - steam, diesels and electric. I just hope the cost of fitting such equipment is not so high that it end's up making it not financially viable to keep many of the loco's mainline capable.
@@100SteveB that’s a problem with these 60+ year old heritage steamers and diesels. Almost every single vehicle is unique; we can’t make a “one size fits all” design. Expensive.
Very interesting! So eventually all line side signals will disappear. That is a shame, but that is the future of railways. But for ETCS you need coverage of GSM-R, also in the underground sections. Now I know from experience that there is already cellphone coverage all over the London Underground network, so that will be no problem. Thanks for offering a good night sleep to produce this video!
As a North London local who has been keeping up with the Digital ECML project, thank you for making such an excellent and comprehensive but also entertaining video on the topic! We are very proud in North London to have such great investment in improving our (very) crowded railway!
Hello Geoff! I started watching your videos a few years ago as a way to familiarize myself with transport in the UK. Two UK trips later I still enjoy watching from Florida. Thanks!
That's fascinating, the in-cab displays are just like what Train Simulator shows! And here I thought that was unrealistically easy/hand-hold-y. It totally makes sense how it takes them a while to get used to looking for waypoints on a screen over keeping an eye-out for lights, but also just how much more information it provides so I can see why they prefer it once they've gotten used to it. I remember being annoyed in 2009 that signalling upgrades kept being delayed/cancelled since the 80s, and in a way it sucks that it's taken another 10 years or so to really happen, and will probably not be finished across the UK until 2040 or 2050... who knows if the Pendolinos will even be in service and running at their design limit of 150mph by the time it covers the WCML! But still, it's really good that it's finally happening. We're massively overdue, but this is hugely important for modernising our railways. Speeds can be higher, track rework can be easier, and that should pay itself forward.
There's a rare upgrade to ETCS happening soon beyond Europe - the regional train operator in Toronto, Canada, GO Transit, is embarking on a massive system upgrade including electrification of numerous lines and their construction consortium (which includes Deutsche Bahn) have indicated signal upgrades to ETCS will be included.
GO is actually far from being a unique adopter: [In Europe, with railways using different signalling systems, a train that crosses borders must have equipment for each country. The European Train Control System (ETCS) was devised to solve this problem with a common system. It has spread to countries around the world - including Australia, China, India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, South Korea and Taiwan - because it offers improved safety, performance and headway times.] - Advanced signalling will allow more frequent GO Train service
You doing this Geoff; rather reminds me of a time when I got up at 4/4:30am, to get to Swanwick and ride on the first passenger service over a new section of rail (at the rear of my previous address). This was at least 10 years ago and was on the Fareham to Southampton Central line, the new section was between Netley (NTL) and Sholing (SHO) and it was on a Southern 377. The things we do for the railways ah?! 😂
I just love how the tornado steam train is being fited with ETCS. What steam train is next, flying Scotsman? Fantastic video as always Geoff! Such as inspiration! Seeing you and the GTR guy on the floor drawing the map just made my smile! Cracking video as always, Geoff!
If a steam engine (or vintage diesel) is to be mainline-certified, they need to be fitted with the latest train control equipment, be it cab signaling equipment and/or digital train radio systems so it can safely interact with other traffic on the network. The alternative is to cease mainline operations of heritage equipment as closing a mainline to ordinary traffic to allow a special to run just isn't a viable operations method. Closer to my home, all 'heritage' locomotives have to carry a digital train radio. No radio, no mainline running. Fortunately, they developed a 'portable' unit that can be moved from locomotive to locomotive as required. This avoids expensive kit needing to be fitted to a locomotive that may venture onto the mainline only a handful of times a year.
@@bfapple Presumably over time as ETCS signalling rolls out over the network, more of the mainline-certified heritage stock will have to be fitted with ETCS equipment to maintain its mainline certification. This is just the beginning..
PTC is just a requirements/concepts that the signaling system in a US FRA regulated railroad must have. Whereas ETCS/ERTMS is a interoperable signaling system. In fact, ETCS implementations can be used to satisfy PTC requirements. And PATH uses Siemens CBTC to satisfy their PTC requirements.
Brisbane, Australia is currently replacing the signalling on all of its lines with the ETCS and has built a new train depot to fit out all the existing rolling stock. This is in conjunction with the rail megaproject currently under construction known as Cross River Rail - Brisbane's first underground rail line.
Great video, as always, Geoff. ETCS is fantastic, but the UK is way behind compared to Europe. For example, Slovakia have just announced that they're about to install ETCS on the 329 km cross-country route from Varín to Čierna nad Tisou on the Hungary/Ukraine border. Getting to just north of Peterborough on the ECML by 2029/30 doesn't sound too ambitious.
Geoff I just want to know when you will do the next tram network. I know you've been ticking off light railways, subways, metros and trams around UK. I know you have done London, Dublin, Glasgow, Tyne & Wear, Nottingham, Manchester and Sheffiels so far. You still have Birmingham Trams, Blackpool trams and Edinburgh trams to do yet
Does ETCS mandate a change to the emergency procedures for the northern city line? I recall reading that these procedures are quite different from other underground railway tunnels.
Once I was on a class 700 arriving at a terminal platfrom at Blackfriars and the driver had to apologise because the doors did not open automatically and he had to do a rest to enable manual opening, It took what seemed qyite a while to do.
Good to see railways - especially busy urban railways - adopt modern signalling systems for improved safety, service levels, and the like. Way too many railway mishaps have been attributable to signalling failures, and having a more reliable, modern signalling system will help vastly reduce the chances of such accidents occurring.
I believe they will be upgrading many classes, including the LNER/Hull Trains/Lumo 80Xs, the Grand Central 180s, and possibly the remaining 225 sets as well
@@andrewreynolds4949 The 800 series trains already have ERTMS. The 387s are getting them fitted, and maybe the 180s (which are an obstacle to 140 mph running and should really be replaced with bi-mode 800s to phase out diesel under wires for long distances). The 225 group tell me that there are no plans to fit InterCity 225s with ERTMS, and they will be phased out before the removal of line-side signals.
😯The trains are becoming sentient! Next they'll be like the new 720 greater anglia trains where they refuse to open the doors and let you off! The one I was on a few weeks ago, they had to shut the whole train down and "reboot" it to get the doors to open!
And I don't lean on tube doors anymore, eversince I was almost ejected out and under the carriage from a Victoria Line tube when the doors on the wrong side opened at Green Park station.
I’ve had a cab ride in an Austrian Loco en route to Slovenia. That had a screen telling you everything. What track you were programmed to take. If level crossing gates were down etc. A fantastic way to visit a new country.
I would have thought that ATO would be perfect between Drayton Park and Moorgate, seeing as it’s only class 717s on that route and there is the pantograph switchover at Drayton Park.
While it's nice to see ETCS/ERTMS finally rolling out to more lines, the Digswell Viaduct (Welwyn) and tunnels around the aforementioned are a bottleneck that will continue to cause issues...
@@andrewreynolds4949 it's close to impossible to do that, especially for the digswell viaduct. impossible meaning that the cost would not be worth the increase in capacity. HS2 is a much much better and more cost efficient option actually. the calculations have been done by people who are cleverer than I am!
@@Nooticus Maybe for the WCML, but I don't really see much benefit for the ECML. I'm not saying upgrading that bottleneck on the ECML is worth its cost, but I don't think HS2 east would be an effective replacement. Far more effective for the ECML would be targeted upgrades like the dive-under project north of Peterborough, and ERTMS moving block implementation. As a side note, the Digswell Viaduct looks less like a problem to me than the constrained area at Welwyn North station. Additional spans can be built alongside the existing structure if that's what's needed. Putting 2 more lines through the station and the cutting/tunnels north of that would require a lot more rebuilding and property acquisition.
What is the reason for not implementing ATO at this time? I think of several possibilities and wonder what the real reason is? 1. A desire to not change too much at once? 2. Additional technology required other than ETCS? 3. Unsuitability to the section? 4. Something else?
Hoping this can mean a higher speed limit on the ECML. The 225s and Hitachi's are capable of 140mph although the 225s will probably be gone by then. Not sure if Grand Central's 180s can do 140mph? They'll probably get Hitachi's by then anyway since every operator seems to be getting them. Shame about the heritage services but sometimes you have to make sacrifices for progress and if they can upgrade Tornado then they might upgrade others
In theory, this would allow us to finally raise the speed limit on the ECML. Do you know if that’s on the roadmap? Loving the fit on Tornado and Class 55 (best diesel EVAH). Amazing that we will, for a short while, have everything from mechanical semaphore to in-cab across the network.
In theory there are a few very limited sections which could be raised to 140 mph on this part of the ECML. I'm not sure if that's in the plan. Most of this section is only good for 125 or less due to other limitations. As a side note, trains on HS1 have had in-cab signaling for around two decades now
I could've saved you the night turn and shown you the Heathrow Airport branch! All trains have been using ETCS Level 2 (Overlay) since December 2020.... The section from Airport Junction to Ealing Broadway should go live in November, the class 387 simulator at Reading already has this available for training....
Another good video. Just one thing puzzled me. It was when you said at 12:40 "With no physical signals on the track to go wrong ... this should reduce delays too". It seems to me that the signals are effectively being replaced with fancy radio transmitters and receivers. Anyone with a temperamental WIFI setup knows that these can go wrong. It will be interesting to see how reliable the new equipment is once the "shine of newness" has disappeared from it. We will probably have to wait a couple of years until it suffers from the usual level of neglect and dust/particle contamination. As the electronics has control of the brakes I hope the installations are always well-shielded. I would hate to be the passenger on a phone call which causes it to overshoot its stopping point. I am certainly not a luddite but I think the "sales pitch" for this stuff should not be accepted uncritically. Just my thoughts.
There is a more basic version of this system already operating in central Wales, and there are other routes in Europe that have been operating on ETCS for years or decades as well. It’s not exactly an untested system.
Absolutely Patrick - I thought that was a brave claim ! And presumably the radio receivers are physically on the line - so it's actually *different* equipment to go wrong !! Hopefully the increased frequency and newer equipment will be worth the enormous investment.
This will also bring the Northern City Line a bit more in line with the rest of the ECML. Currently, the signalling is the same as the Underground used to have: it uses tripcocks and tunnel telephones instead of more modern system. In a previous video from Geoff, they briefly mention all the equipment that is needed just for the NCL and how old it was - the tunnel telephone receivers were even made out of bakelite.
Thought the tunnel telephone wires/system was more about the traction current in the tunnels (the East London Line had them but I believe they were replaced with handsets) As for trainstops though, they seem to have already been removed, with TPWS loops taking their place? (e.g. Moorgate at 12:48, there's a TSS where there would be a fixed trainstop, and looking at the platform, mini-OSS loops where the timed train stops used to be)
The signalling was upgraded last year, trip cocks are long gone thankfully and TPWS and Axle counters are now in place, the tunnel telephone system is still there though!!
The new hertford switch back (Platform 5) from Stevenage station has been ECTS for a few years now even before the new Platform 5 was built last year. This has been in place between Stevenage and the first part of the Hertford Loop line and been subject to testing the past few years. The new Hertford switchback is its own track to Stevenage station thus no longer needing to use the last two miles of the east coast main line. so more traffic can run on the east coast main line.
simple answer is we officially became a metric country quite late and the switch metric units would be very expensive for very little benefit, same also applies to the UK road network and while we're officially metric in practice people use a mess of both metric and imperial depending on the situation
The question has to be asked why is it taking 7 years to get up to Peterborough? And why no further? York or Doncaster would seem appropriate staging points if the full benefits of increased capacity are to be gained as soon as possible. The technology is well proven so it seems quite a long time to just install standard kit (I'm aware that the signalling system also has to be upgraded but 7 years for 80 odd miles of track seems 'tardy' - or is this Treasury withholding funding?
@@andrewreynolds4949 7 years is still a long time. If I understand correctly lineside signals will initially remain but controlled from York. The basic Radio Block Centre / ETCS technology can be installed and non ETCS trains can still run - as they will have to as there cannot be a Big Bang "All ETCS" from Monday approach. I understand that train fitout is problematic but fixed ETCS infrastructure is not (these days) rocket science. I don't think that Level 3 is proposed which would , I agree, significantly add to testing time. Maybe I'm reading too much into 7 years and that is the date when all trains will run under ETCS as opposed to the date when ETCS will first be available for use.
Geoff! I work as a part of the East Coast Digitalisation Programme and may be able to help you make contact with a few of the people involved with the First in Class fitment of a Class 66 Freight Train at DBCargo's depot in Doncaster. The people there are lovely and would no doubt be more than happy to provide you with some insight into how ETCS will be affecting the Freight community (maybe even set you up with a depot visit to see where the magic happens)!
Yes I’ve heard some interesting things about how different the locos will be to drive under ETCS.
ETCS operates within a wider framework known as ERTMS (European Rail Traffic Management System).
Once the Northern City Line is ready, the rest of the East Coast Main Line from King's Cross to Stoke (between Grantham and Peterborough) will be upgraded to ERTMS (with a long-term vision of ERTMS all the way to Edinburgh). Then the legacy line-side signals will be removed too, so all trains operating will be required to be ERTMS-equipped.
One of the biggest benefactors of the East Coast Digital Programme, as it's called, will be the InterCity operators LNER, Hull Trains, and Lumo. Their Hitachi (Azuma, Paragon) trains will be upgraded to run at 140 mph rather than the current 125 mph.
There are no plans to fit ERTMS to the InterCity 225s, which means, as things stand, they will be phased out before the line-side signals are removed.
Not quite enough. 140mph operation also requires OHLE upgrades, level crossing closures, fenced platforms e.g. Biggleswade and St Neots.
@@bfapple That's true. The Mark 3 OLE used on the ECML was designed for speeds of 100 mph, not even 125, let alone 140. It's why the ECML suffers from frequent dewirements - the OLE is completely overwhelmed with so many high speed trains using it at the same time. Headspans are the main culprit, and the masts are also much further apart than the WCML. However, rebuilding the OLE is by no means an easy job.
Level crossing closures is a long term goal, which should hopefully happen anyway. However, if we think realistically here. It's not like being hit by a train at 140 is significantly less survivable than being hit by a train at 125. Both will kill you instantly.
Barriers on the fast lines make sense, but Potters Bar for instance has trains passing at 115 mph without barriers, and I've never seen anyone get pulled too close there.
However, the main point I was making was that the fitment of ERTMS will remove the most major obstacle to 140 mph running. When the InterCity 225s came out the lack of in-cab signalling was the primary, if not the only, reason why they were limited to 125 mph in passenger service, despite being tested at 140 mph.
@@bfapple There was an incident some months ago when the Thameslink semifast, which runs fast from Potters Bar to Finsbury Park, got horribly late, and ended up stopping on the fast line platform so it could make up some of the time (and to avoid getting stuck behind the all-stops service which had by this time gone ahead of it).
With fencing on the fast lines, this would not be possible (though it is possible to fit sliding fence gates like those at other stations).
The next time the train got that delayed, the train stopped on the slow platform but moved onto the fast line just after leaving. This would have to be the way it's done in future.
Once I was coming into Elstree on the MML, Thameslink services run 24-hours and it was the middle of the night, the train was a Brighton to Bedford all-stations service and it was running on the fast lines, because no other passenger services were using them (at night the only Thameslink services that run are Bedford to Brighton all-stations, and EMR trains don't run). When we got into the station, the gate across the stairs to the footbridge was open so we could go through.
@@bfapple And I’m saying that’s true, but apart from signaling and OLE the other things are a lot less major
The infrastructure isn’t fit for 140mph…. The current geometry isn’t suitable for 125mph in places - hence the lower speeds. The dynamic forces exerted by trains > 125mph would also change the service life of some component’s….
I admire how you managed to survive being out at night for so long, but of course we train enthusiasts would do anything for a behind the scenes :)
So that's why they were diverting the trains from Finsbury park to Kings cross almost every weekend the other year! Love the Northern and City line! Hope they get increased frequency eventually and maybe some nice new developments near their stops
I'm a signalling engineer for the Bucharest metro. I worked with Alstom on implementing a similar system for our Line 5. Hopefully I'll get to ride a ETCS equipped Class 700 😊
As a young teenager, I rode the Standard Stock from Moorgate, and more recently the 717 stock.
Really fascinated to see that line is "honoured" to be where this Signalling Upgrade is rolling out!
Absolutely honoured indeed!
Oh what changes since my youth and this Finsbury Park to Moorgate Line was a Northern Line Branch with ancient passenger stock.
Thank you Geoff!
Wild to think that they're going to fit Tornado with ETCS!
Thanks for the video Geoff, a thoroughly enjoyable and educational production!
It’s my company doing the designs. I’m not directly involved, but Tornado is an interesting challenge - how to interface with the drivers on a unique environment.
Wow, a steam locomotive with ETCS signalling?!
@@EonityLuna such a funny contrast between electronic screens and the controls lol.
I am guessing in the future when the system is countrywide, all locos will need to have it fitted - will be interesting to see how it will be fitted into the entire heritage fleet of locos - steam, diesels and electric. I just hope the cost of fitting such equipment is not so high that it end's up making it not financially viable to keep many of the loco's mainline capable.
@@100SteveB that’s a problem with these 60+ year old heritage steamers and diesels. Almost every single vehicle is unique; we can’t make a “one size fits all” design. Expensive.
Great to see Matt pop up, love a felt tip pen drawing!
I like trains
Me too
Brian in asdfmovie catchphrase
me too
*trains suddenly come out of nowhere at max speed*
Me 3
Very interesting! So eventually all line side signals will disappear. That is a shame, but that is the future of railways. But for ETCS you need coverage of GSM-R, also in the underground sections. Now I know from experience that there is already cellphone coverage all over the London Underground network, so that will be no problem. Thanks for offering a good night sleep to produce this video!
As a North London local who has been keeping up with the Digital ECML project, thank you for making such an excellent and comprehensive but also entertaining video on the topic! We are very proud in North London to have such great investment in improving our (very) crowded railway!
Hello Geoff! I started watching your videos a few years ago as a way to familiarize myself with transport in the UK. Two UK trips later I still enjoy watching from Florida. Thanks!
Steam Train and ETCS, don't just sit there Geoff, get going, we need to see this!
What a lovely night out! Thank you for taking us with you! 👍🥰
That simulator is so realistic, the sounds too
It's suppose to be
@@kevingraham3161 does it have the smells too !
Well done making a technical topic quite interesting. Looks like everyone enjoyed their late night out.
Enjoying the videos geoff, huge rail enthusiast keep up the work.
A very train spotter-ish video. Still enjoyed it through, and have been enjoying geoff's posts for quite a few years now.😁
It’s nice to see a video on the channel. Hope you’re doing well.
MA of 3000 m and a max speed of 30 mph. Love the blend of units.
That's fascinating, the in-cab displays are just like what Train Simulator shows! And here I thought that was unrealistically easy/hand-hold-y. It totally makes sense how it takes them a while to get used to looking for waypoints on a screen over keeping an eye-out for lights, but also just how much more information it provides so I can see why they prefer it once they've gotten used to it.
I remember being annoyed in 2009 that signalling upgrades kept being delayed/cancelled since the 80s, and in a way it sucks that it's taken another 10 years or so to really happen, and will probably not be finished across the UK until 2040 or 2050... who knows if the Pendolinos will even be in service and running at their design limit of 150mph by the time it covers the WCML! But still, it's really good that it's finally happening.
We're massively overdue, but this is hugely important for modernising our railways. Speeds can be higher, track rework can be easier, and that should pay itself forward.
There's a rare upgrade to ETCS happening soon beyond Europe - the regional train operator in Toronto, Canada, GO Transit, is embarking on a massive system upgrade including electrification of numerous lines and their construction consortium (which includes Deutsche Bahn) have indicated signal upgrades to ETCS will be included.
GO is actually far from being a unique adopter:
[In Europe, with railways using different signalling systems, a train that crosses borders must have equipment for each country. The European Train Control System (ETCS) was devised to solve this problem with a common system. It has spread to countries around the world - including Australia, China, India, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, South Korea and Taiwan - because it offers improved safety, performance and headway times.]
- Advanced signalling will allow more frequent GO Train service
@@stephensaines7100 Auckland in New Zealand also uses ETCS.
Really interesting video Geoff!
Hi Geoff, Another great video as always, I found this extremely interesting! 😊
Great video. One day, I'd love to see you do an explore of the old Smithfield Market sidngs etc..
You doing this Geoff; rather reminds me of a time when I got up at 4/4:30am, to get to Swanwick and ride on the first passenger service over a new section of rail (at the rear of my previous address). This was at least 10 years ago and was on the Fareham to Southampton Central line, the new section was between Netley (NTL) and Sholing (SHO) and it was on a Southern 377.
The things we do for the railways ah?! 😂
I just love how the tornado steam train is being fited with ETCS. What steam train is next, flying Scotsman?
Fantastic video as always Geoff! Such as inspiration! Seeing you and the GTR guy on the floor drawing the map just made my smile!
Cracking video as always, Geoff!
If a steam engine (or vintage diesel) is to be mainline-certified, they need to be fitted with the latest train control equipment, be it cab signaling equipment and/or digital train radio systems so it can safely interact with other traffic on the network. The alternative is to cease mainline operations of heritage equipment as closing a mainline to ordinary traffic to allow a special to run just isn't a viable operations method. Closer to my home, all 'heritage' locomotives have to carry a digital train radio. No radio, no mainline running. Fortunately, they developed a 'portable' unit that can be moved from locomotive to locomotive as required. This avoids expensive kit needing to be fitted to a locomotive that may venture onto the mainline only a handful of times a year.
Deltics next.
@@bfapple Presumably over time as ETCS signalling rolls out over the network, more of the mainline-certified heritage stock will have to be fitted with ETCS equipment to maintain its mainline certification. This is just the beginning..
I'd love to learn more about how Tornado is getting equipped for ETCS. That sounds like an interesting challenge!
The A1 Trust has several interesting news articles about it on their website
@@andrewreynolds4949 indeed and I think there have been at least a few stakeholder presentations recorded.
Geoff, you made signalling interesting! Fantastic!
Now I'm intrigued if that Simulator does have the Class 365 on it! Great Video Geoff and nice to see Moorgate again
Fascinating video Geoff!
That was a total geek fest.
Loved it! 😊
I wonder if anyone has looked at HUDs for trains equipped with in cab signalling. Could be useful for encouraging eyes to always looking outside.
Good to see you back Geoff. Was a
Bit worried as you hadn't posted for a while.
Jeff on the 'tube, my week is complete. 🤟
Nice view of the greathead shield at the end geoff!
ETCS sounds like it's similar to PTC here in the states. So cool!
PTC is just a requirements/concepts that the signaling system in a US FRA regulated railroad must have. Whereas ETCS/ERTMS is a interoperable signaling system. In fact, ETCS implementations can be used to satisfy PTC requirements. And PATH uses Siemens CBTC to satisfy their PTC requirements.
I want them to fit ATO to the steam train - that'll be fun to see in operation!
Hi Geoff, you should do a video on the Bluebell Railway. I'm surprised you haven't already!
Brisbane, Australia is currently replacing the signalling on all of its lines with the ETCS and has built a new train depot to fit out all the existing rolling stock. This is in conjunction with the rail megaproject currently under construction known as Cross River Rail - Brisbane's first underground rail line.
W😮W - all them letters that you are keep on talking about making lost - also up-dating The Tornado - Crumbs - that's amazing 😮🚂🚂🚂
all the riveting content
Great video, as always, Geoff. ETCS is fantastic, but the UK is way behind compared to Europe. For example, Slovakia have just announced that they're about to install ETCS on the 329 km cross-country route from Varín to Čierna nad Tisou on the Hungary/Ukraine border. Getting to just north of Peterborough on the ECML by 2029/30 doesn't sound too ambitious.
The UK’s rail system is a lot more insular than Central Europe, I don’t think it’s needed quite as much
The Northern City line is a bit of a mystery. I didn't know it existed until recently. Should have kept being a Tube line. Very spooky stations.
i really enjoy it as an non-Tube option for getting into town :)
@Alice Warburton good that it is useful !
Geoff I just want to know when you will do the next tram network. I know you've been ticking off light railways, subways, metros and trams around UK. I know you have done London, Dublin, Glasgow, Tyne & Wear, Nottingham, Manchester and Sheffiels so far. You still have Birmingham Trams, Blackpool trams and Edinburgh trams to do yet
Nice The Jam reference. A+++
Does ETCS mandate a change to the emergency procedures for the northern city line? I recall reading that these procedures are quite different from other underground railway tunnels.
I thought that was because of how narrow the tunnels were
Where did you get your knowledge from (love your videos Geoff)
Something hilariously British about the mishmash of Metric and Imperial units.
As always a super interesting video!
Once I was on a class 700 arriving at a terminal platfrom at Blackfriars and the driver had to apologise because the doors did not open automatically and he had to do a rest to enable manual opening, It took what seemed qyite a while to do.
Good to see railways - especially busy urban railways - adopt modern signalling systems for improved safety, service levels, and the like. Way too many railway mishaps have been attributable to signalling failures, and having a more reliable, modern signalling system will help vastly reduce the chances of such accidents occurring.
e-g- the Ladbroke Grove accident - the signal lamp aligned with the sun at a certain time of day.
They also happen to be upgrading the cab systems within the Class 387s
I believe they will be upgrading many classes, including the LNER/Hull Trains/Lumo 80Xs, the Grand Central 180s, and possibly the remaining 225 sets as well
Everything that operated on East Coast will need ETCS onboard fitting. Including freight and heritage locos.
@@andrewreynolds4949 No, it’s just all of Great Northern and Thameslink’s fleet because of the Northern City and Canal tunnels
@@bfapple I believe most stock is already fitted with this.
@@andrewreynolds4949 The 800 series trains already have ERTMS. The 387s are getting them fitted, and maybe the 180s (which are an obstacle to 140 mph running and should really be replaced with bi-mode 800s to phase out diesel under wires for long distances). The 225 group tell me that there are no plans to fit InterCity 225s with ERTMS, and they will be phased out before the removal of line-side signals.
WEL (WELLINGBOROUGH)? I feel at home. Welwyn Garden is 40 miles away!
😯The trains are becoming sentient! Next they'll be like the new 720 greater anglia trains where they refuse to open the doors and let you off! The one I was on a few weeks ago, they had to shut the whole train down and "reboot" it to get the doors to open!
Not a new problem - I recall a new 158 class at Manchester Oxford Road having a similar issue in the very early 90's ...
And I don't lean on tube doors anymore, eversince I was almost ejected out and under the carriage from a Victoria Line tube when the doors on the wrong side opened at Green Park station.
I’ve had a cab ride in an Austrian Loco en route to Slovenia. That had a screen telling you everything. What track you were programmed to take. If level crossing gates were down etc. A fantastic way to visit a new country.
Not Geoff manifesting that someone messes up on the simulator lmao
I would have thought that ATO would be perfect between Drayton Park and Moorgate, seeing as it’s only class 717s on that route and there is the pantograph switchover at Drayton Park.
They have automatic power changeover at Drayton park.
That was me and my horn at the start!!
Nice one Jon 😂
Nice horn! 😜
While it's nice to see ETCS/ERTMS finally rolling out to more lines, the Digswell Viaduct (Welwyn) and tunnels around the aforementioned are a bottleneck that will continue to cause issues...
But ERTMS can help mitigate those issues
Exactly Andrew. Its not a solve-all situation but it’s the best that can be done (without building HS2 all the way to Leeds… 🤬)
@@Nooticus I think a more efficient way to solve those specific restrictions would be to double/expand/rebuild those viaducts and tunnels...
@@andrewreynolds4949 it's close to impossible to do that, especially for the digswell viaduct. impossible meaning that the cost would not be worth the increase in capacity. HS2 is a much much better and more cost efficient option actually. the calculations have been done by people who are cleverer than I am!
@@Nooticus Maybe for the WCML, but I don't really see much benefit for the ECML. I'm not saying upgrading that bottleneck on the ECML is worth its cost, but I don't think HS2 east would be an effective replacement. Far more effective for the ECML would be targeted upgrades like the dive-under project north of Peterborough, and ERTMS moving block implementation.
As a side note, the Digswell Viaduct looks less like a problem to me than the constrained area at Welwyn North station. Additional spans can be built alongside the existing structure if that's what's needed. Putting 2 more lines through the station and the cutting/tunnels north of that would require a lot more rebuilding and property acquisition.
Can you do a video on the new city bus network in Dunfermline
What is the reason for not implementing ATO at this time? I think of several possibilities and wonder what the real reason is?
1. A desire to not change too much at once?
2. Additional technology required other than ETCS?
3. Unsuitability to the section?
4. Something else?
Guessing also "no real need for it, compared to Thameslink needing it for capacity" may be part of it
I miss the Class 365s. They sounded like something from Star Trek!
Will points be digitized? Also, will ETCS eliminate the disastrous effects of leaves on the line?
Thank you for sharing this video Geoff that was very interesting.
Hoping this can mean a higher speed limit on the ECML. The 225s and Hitachi's are capable of 140mph although the 225s will probably be gone by then. Not sure if Grand Central's 180s can do 140mph? They'll probably get Hitachi's by then anyway since every operator seems to be getting them. Shame about the heritage services but sometimes you have to make sacrifices for progress and if they can upgrade Tornado then they might upgrade others
I'll tell you something
I live on the theamslink route and I had no clue that it ran on ETCS
Fascinating 👌👌👌
Thank goodness i got this to start eventually, i was stuck on an endless loop of Whiskas kitten food ads. IT Crowd rule applied...
Could fork lift trucks be the new allotments in Geoff’s videos?
TSW3 is going to have a 700 coming
@Geoff Marshall Do a Meet and greet at Baker Street station
In theory, this would allow us to finally raise the speed limit on the ECML. Do you know if that’s on the roadmap? Loving the fit on Tornado and Class 55 (best diesel EVAH). Amazing that we will, for a short while, have everything from mechanical semaphore to in-cab across the network.
In theory there are a few very limited sections which could be raised to 140 mph on this part of the ECML. I'm not sure if that's in the plan. Most of this section is only good for 125 or less due to other limitations.
As a side note, trains on HS1 have had in-cab signaling for around two decades now
@@andrewreynolds4949 thanks, dude
The Cambrian route from Shrewsbury to Machynlleth (and onwards) already has a semaphore ETCS transition.
Geoff Marshall what your favourite tube line
So when you going to Wrexham to ride on our 230s?
ETCS is the bees knees (= business). It has been working on the central Wales line for some time already.
It like shallow sub service going deep underground like tube but tunnels are big than tube tunnel?
Is the Hornsey depot where the old Hornsey stream shed used to be?
I’m curious if we can expect ATO to eventually come to the ECML?
Not in this lifetime.
I could've saved you the night turn and shown you the Heathrow Airport branch! All trains have been using ETCS Level 2 (Overlay) since December 2020....
The section from Airport Junction to Ealing Broadway should go live in November, the class 387 simulator at Reading already has this available for training....
Go Matt🎉
A really enjoyable video but I'm afraid I didn't understand a word of it ! 🤔
Ah well back to the Glasgow and South Western line and the class 156's 🚂
Has there planing to do this signalling up to Grantham if LNER used this system could the trains 🚂 run up to there top speed of 140mph
Hope there's a night tube to get home
Hey Geoff I met you at Acton Depot
Phil is [ unintentionally? ] hilarious. My prediction - a 'spin-off' series [ are you watching HBO? ] and global-fame, await.
Wow Highbury Hill, I used to live there as a kid, though to be honest, my nearest station was Arsenal. Enjoyable video....thank you.
Another good video.
Just one thing puzzled me. It was when you said at 12:40 "With no physical signals on the track to go wrong ... this should reduce delays too".
It seems to me that the signals are effectively being replaced with fancy radio transmitters and receivers. Anyone with a temperamental WIFI setup knows that these can go wrong.
It will be interesting to see how reliable the new equipment is once the "shine of newness" has disappeared from it. We will probably have to wait a couple of years until it suffers from the usual level of neglect and dust/particle contamination.
As the electronics has control of the brakes I hope the installations are always well-shielded. I would hate to be the passenger on a phone call which causes it to overshoot its stopping point.
I am certainly not a luddite but I think the "sales pitch" for this stuff should not be accepted uncritically.
Just my thoughts.
There is a more basic version of this system already operating in central Wales, and there are other routes in Europe that have been operating on ETCS for years or decades as well. It’s not exactly an untested system.
Absolutely Patrick - I thought that was a brave claim !
And presumably the radio receivers are physically on the line - so it's actually *different* equipment to go wrong !!
Hopefully the increased frequency and newer equipment will be worth the enormous investment.
This will also bring the Northern City Line a bit more in line with the rest of the ECML. Currently, the signalling is the same as the Underground used to have: it uses tripcocks and tunnel telephones instead of more modern system. In a previous video from Geoff, they briefly mention all the equipment that is needed just for the NCL and how old it was - the tunnel telephone receivers were even made out of bakelite.
Thought the tunnel telephone wires/system was more about the traction current in the tunnels (the East London Line had them but I believe they were replaced with handsets)
As for trainstops though, they seem to have already been removed, with TPWS loops taking their place? (e.g. Moorgate at 12:48, there's a TSS where there would be a fixed trainstop, and looking at the platform, mini-OSS loops where the timed train stops used to be)
The Northern City has already been converted to AWS/TPWS. Tripcocks are gone.
The signalling was upgraded last year, trip cocks are long gone thankfully and TPWS and Axle counters are now in place, the tunnel telephone system is still there though!!
Northern city line at Moorgate, 1975, gave us Moorgate control. I suppose that is obsolete now.
It's still used on parts of the Sub-surface network, on the Bakerloo, Piccadilly and Waterloo & City lines, but ironically not at Moorgate anymore.
ECTS should reduce the possibility of another Moorgate collision
To the Trains!
I hope that the Northern City Line does get ATO at some point, it just feels wrong to have a deep level tube line without automation nowadays.
There are only 4 stations on the line and no one uses it, it would just be a waste of money
The new hertford switch back (Platform 5) from Stevenage station has been ECTS for a few years now even before the new Platform 5 was built last year.
This has been in place between Stevenage and the first part of the Hertford Loop line and been subject to testing the past few years.
The new Hertford switchback is its own track to Stevenage station thus no longer needing to use the last two miles of the east coast main line.
so more traffic can run on the east coast main line.
I’m fairly sure the Hertford Loop ETCS is for test trains only at this time…
and platform 5, as far as I know, is still conventionally signalled
Question: Why is the British rail system still using the old British imperial measures of MILES?
Miles came first. There's too much measurement miscegenation miles/kms already.
Same reason land surveying in the US occasionally uses units that otherwise went out of common use over a century ago
simple answer is we officially became a metric country quite late and the switch metric units would be very expensive for very little benefit, same also applies to the UK road network and while we're officially metric in practice people use a mess of both metric and imperial depending on the situation
why can you sit next to the driver on some of the new trains but not on others, like the underground
Beaut video.
The question has to be asked why is it taking 7 years to get up to Peterborough? And why no further? York or Doncaster would seem appropriate staging points if the full benefits of increased capacity are to be gained as soon as possible.
The technology is well proven so it seems quite a long time to just install standard kit (I'm aware that the signalling system also has to be upgraded but 7 years for 80 odd miles of track seems 'tardy' - or is this Treasury withholding funding?
This also has to be done while the route is still in service, and all the hundreds of trains involved must receive the signaling system as well
@@andrewreynolds4949 7 years is still a long time. If I understand correctly lineside signals will initially remain but controlled from York.
The basic Radio Block Centre / ETCS technology can be installed and non ETCS trains can still run - as they will have to as there cannot be a Big Bang "All ETCS" from Monday approach.
I understand that train fitout is problematic but fixed ETCS infrastructure is not (these days) rocket science.
I don't think that Level 3 is proposed which would , I agree, significantly add to testing time.
Maybe I'm reading too much into 7 years and that is the date when all trains will run under ETCS as opposed to the date when ETCS will first be available for use.
I think the 7 years is for whole project completion, and it’s coming online in stages before then
That horn at the start