Please note that I'm not saying the katana is inferior. Anyone who says that isn't discussing history or swords. But it just doesn't do something it wasn't built for.
@THECHEESELORD69 Swords were used quite a bit, just less as a primary weapon on a battlefield. Whether as side-, self-defense or dueling weapons, swords were significant. And you cannot forget about large battlefield swords either, even if they are a lot more niche than spears, other polearms, bows or gonnes... While the significance of spears and polearms is being rightfully brought to attention, it doesn't mean that we should think that swords were useless.
You can also twist to lock the opponent's blade between your blade and the crossguard. Doesn't really work on the tsuba, but binding and the guard were always less significant in Japanese swordsmanship, as far as I can tell.
Something that should also be noted is that the Katana also by design have their hilt and guard easily replaced. So in times of war the katana guard would be bigger
Some people mock the pin system (despite the messer using pretty much the same and no one caring), but you can't deny how easy it is to repair, clean, and modify that blade over one with a peened pommel.
@@MarcusVanceThe difference is that messers had metal pins that were way more securely fastened. Katana flicks weren't for getting blood off, they were for feeling/hearing if the bamboo pin had broken. Metal pins don't have that problem.
@@farkasmactavishI never liked that theory that chiburi was meant to check the mekugi. If it was broken then chance that the inertia from the swing would send the blade flying out of the handle is to high to even seem reasonable. Also the mekugi were tightly fitted, if it broke it may be tighter so how would you hear anything especially when it’s under your hand? I’d be more hesitant before exclaiming that was its purpose when really we still don’t know definitively
@@farkasmactavish there are various chiburi that make wide and fast swings. If the mekugi is broken it is possible for it to fly out. Even if you wanna say the mekugi didn’t completely break, it can still be heavily fractured yet still sound tight in the tsuka. At that point, it fails at telling you anything. You could also easily mistake it for the tsuba rattling. There’s no reason to risk any of that when you can just look down and inspect it yourself. I’m not saying the theory is fruitless, but we need to acknowledge it as just a theory and stop talking about it as if it’s fact.
Many later European swords also had side rings on both sides, making their hand protection basically perfect. Or, as perfect as would be until swept and other complex hilts developed.
I studied Kenjutsu for many years. There are techniques that if you twist the katana while performing parries you can lock the other sword onto the Tsuba(hand guard). And during actual battle, certain samurai would switch out the tsuba with one that is larger in diameter.
Why not both? Many Crossguards were fitted with a ring guard, which offered similar protections to the tsuba and while katanas and katana-like swords like some daos usually didn't had crossguards, some rare ones did (well, they were more of an S-guard if anything)
My understanding is that because of the hardness of the katana’s edge, one should never ever parry with the edge if at all avoidable. Instead, they parry with the side, or even spine of the sword. Thus, the greater side protection of the katana’s hilt makes more sense.
Yeah, the biggest advantage of the tsuba is the enhanced range of motion. The longsword guard protects more of the arm but restricts certain movements and forces larger motions for certain strikes than you can achieve with a tsuba
@@Candlemancer agenda officer candlemancer here reinforcing the narrative! Youre dramatizing the "restriction" of a cross guard but then again youre here pushing some kind of agenda so im not surprised
The ones with less hands gaurds are due to the advent and use of gauntlets. The over size quillons many times was to make it easier to index in the hand while bot being able to feel thru metal gloves and mail. If they didnt use gauntlets or mail theyd use versions with more handgaurds.
And this is why the Cutlass continues to be my favorite. Designed to be one-handed, light and maneuverable, and with a sweeping guard that protects nearly the whole hand
The tsuba on katana is mainly used to draw the sword as you push it with your thumb, and avoid slipping when you thrust. the guard is just a bonus but it’s not thought to be used this way
There is no real debate. The western cross guard is better. I've done Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, and HEMA. There is no contest. I like Japanese swords a lot, and have more experience with them. That said. Hand shots are way easier with the Tsuba.
So, even without the nobs and upswept quillions, you can trap a blade by twisting your hand. The side thing on a katana is almost nil unless you hold it back a bit from the tsuba...which makes you lose control one handed and control AND power two handed.
tsuba was designed to be easy and convinient to carry and parrying wasnt that important to begin with since katana was a last ditch weapon anyways, also just imagine if both katana and wakizaahi had western style guards, youd be unable to wear them together
I prefer the American "beavertail" style handguard, but then again, I practice the Dr. Jones school of swordfighting. Bottom line is, the only handguard that is worth a damn is the one you're trained to use.
Don't forget half swording. Nothing like the ol' grab your sword by the blade with both hands and batter your opponent with the crossguard like it's a hammer.
Has there been an attempt to make a katana crossguard that has a lifting portion on the edges like the european crossguard style? To gain both benefits? Or would that end up to unweildly and weird to properly handle?
Not in Japan that I'm aware of, but in China, civilian dao often had raised lids, though suggested more as additional insurance against rain rather than any deliberate catching on the round guard. See Chinese niuweidao.
I don't inherently like this style of quillions. That little hook is not going to add that much of an advantage. IMO do a simple straight cross guard or do a more aggressive style for catching blades. If they're going through the effort to do a complex shape for the guard do it right and don't just halfa** it. It's fine to have a simple guard but it's lame to have a mediocre guard cause they don't want to commit.
Later European swords kind of did, adding side rings to the longsword guard for that purpose. The downside is it makes the sword more cumbersome to wear, which is what you're doing with it 99% of the time.
@@Candlemancer ohhhh, they couldn’t fix that? Also I really kinda wanna hear way more of whatever you got to say. I have at looked at ur channel yet but I’m already so impressed bro😎 Edit: damn you comment a lot and it all sounds so interesting pls talk more on the internet do you have a blog or anything?
@@einarr7301 oh wait really? Oh oh no 😭 I guess I’ll just find something else then. Do you know any nice channels? I always have so much trouble learning anything new because I can’t figure out where to look. I think at least three different things as of late, whenever I search for anything I think might be related, I just get shown different things. I also just really prefer videos because I use my phone, and so I’m plagued by people building rgb gaming pcs when I just want to learn other stuff. Sorry for ranting so much. Thank you so so so much though
@@einarr7301 swords come in a variety of weight distributions. Some hit heavier than others. Swords also aren’t the only weapons on the battlefield. Plenty more are even weightier. Steel back then was also much worse quality than it is now and much more unpredictable. There’s also no guarantee the crossguard would even be hardened steel. Modern day feders and reproductions aren’t good ways to test such things. Even then, if you wanted to use modern reproductions, Skallagrim tested the mordhau with a modern Albion which is the best you’ll find and the handle started to bend. He also mentions that he prefers hitting with the pommel because it is more robust and you can bend the guard. I imagine period crossguards would do much worse. I think what I said still applies: force can be more easily applied to the crossguard because it is a longer, thinner structure.
the cross guard is objectively superior. there is no debate. i do not say this to be a troll or a condescending contrarian. just look at them both. its completely obvious which one has more versatility and offers more protection. even in full plate, when the cross guards protection becomes unnecessary as the wielder is encased in steel, the cross guard still has a multitude of offensive capabilities that the tsuba just does not have. the cross guard does everything the tsuba can do, and more.
Does it protect your knuckles, thumb and fingers? No? The Tsuba does tho bc it's round shape which protects all sides of the hand, not just the front and rear. Which means it does perfectly what it's meant for, light weight all round protection. Samurai were blitz attackers, they relied on lightning fast strikes and reflexes, not only this but damaging your sword is uncalled for when you can avoid it and still strike back. Meaning bind work was less of a thing for Samurai, unlike European swordsman. Could also have something to do with the toughness of the steel during those times, but ik that samurai were taught to avoid damaging their blade if possible, meaning they always dodged first and only parry deflect when necessary. Unless they can attack first by simply timing an enemies strike and beating them to it. Their strategies are really different from European ones is all I mean lol
@@joshuapena4684 He kinda addressed that though. Wearing plate armor your knuckles would be safe anyways. The japanese also had similar hand protection outside of the sword's guard.
@@joshuapena4684 spring steel longswords in 15th century europe can withstand abuse that differential hardened katana cannot stand up against. Suffering cuts to the parts of your hand not protected by the crossguard, while completely possible, wasnt a big enough or common enough problem to warrant side rings or various other forms of side guard which seemingly werent deemed to be necessary until the 16th century which is where we see this type of thing really take off. We have to remember that longsword fencing is very orientated towards defense. The wielder also knows where his weak points are and will defend accordingly. Side rings and other forms of side guards existed on late medieval swords but it was pretty rare. Medieval people werent incompetent. If lack of side guard was a serious enough issue, they would of been standard. This is also in an armorless context. When youre wearing steel gauntlets, a side ring would be far less useful
i could write an entire thing about the ways this is just wrong but instead i'll simply make 2 points 1. the guy making the video has more then enough experience and info on the subject that you should be listening when he says one isn't objectively better and 2. you clearly seem to know a lot about longswords but you really need to look into more things with japanese swords since a tsuba did in fact have more uses then just protecting the hand
@@chrono-eventless6956 no, im not wrong, and no, i do not think vance is always correct and at times i disagree with him. no hate, nothing wrong with disagreement. i respect that he has experience in the things he talks about. however, that does not make him infallible.
No more easily than European swords of the same periods. And before you say it, spring steel was not remotely the norm for European swords at any point in the medieval period.
@@Candlemancer spring steel was not the norm but it wasnt uncommon either. Knights were filthy rich and could afford themselves the best equipment. There were far more spring steel longswords than you will admit. You and vance always going on about some agenda. Its pure projection. Its you guys running an agenda. Now begone thread cop
@@Candlemancer spring steel was not the norm but it wasnt nonexistent either. Knights were very wealthy and could afford top of the line equipment. Spring steel swords are frequently depicted in contemporary art and we have surviving examples. We even see metal crossbow limbs which have to be spring steel or the crossbow wont work. Spring steel is not some magical arcane creation. Medieval people had it and used it. Cope harder
![Tee Grizzley - Robbery 8 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/34_vkNV6wrU/mqdefault.jpg)
Please note that I'm not saying the katana is inferior. Anyone who says that isn't discussing history or swords.
But it just doesn't do something it wasn't built for.
European or Japanese cross guards? Well to doesn’t matter anyways because your using a spear and shield (or spear)
@THECHEESELORD69
Swords were used quite a bit, just less as a primary weapon on a battlefield. Whether as side-, self-defense or dueling weapons, swords were significant. And you cannot forget about large battlefield swords either, even if they are a lot more niche than spears, other polearms, bows or gonnes...
While the significance of spears and polearms is being rightfully brought to attention, it doesn't mean that we should think that swords were useless.
You can also twist to lock the opponent's blade between your blade and the crossguard. Doesn't really work on the tsuba, but binding and the guard were always less significant in Japanese swordsmanship, as far as I can tell.
@@somberyu oh I forgot that some people had money back then. My fault.
@@THECHEESELORD69 this is such an odd response to his well written well thought out explanation.
Something that should also be noted is that the Katana also by design have their hilt and guard easily replaced. So in times of war the katana guard would be bigger
Some people mock the pin system (despite the messer using pretty much the same and no one caring), but you can't deny how easy it is to repair, clean, and modify that blade over one with a peened pommel.
@@MarcusVanceThe difference is that messers had metal pins that were way more securely fastened. Katana flicks weren't for getting blood off, they were for feeling/hearing if the bamboo pin had broken. Metal pins don't have that problem.
@@farkasmactavishI never liked that theory that chiburi was meant to check the mekugi. If it was broken then chance that the inertia from the swing would send the blade flying out of the handle is to high to even seem reasonable. Also the mekugi were tightly fitted, if it broke it may be tighter so how would you hear anything especially when it’s under your hand? I’d be more hesitant before exclaiming that was its purpose when really we still don’t know definitively
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 Well the blade wouldn't fly out, you'd just feel a rattle.
@@farkasmactavish there are various chiburi that make wide and fast swings. If the mekugi is broken it is possible for it to fly out. Even if you wanna say the mekugi didn’t completely break, it can still be heavily fractured yet still sound tight in the tsuka. At that point, it fails at telling you anything. You could also easily mistake it for the tsuba rattling. There’s no reason to risk any of that when you can just look down and inspect it yourself.
I’m not saying the theory is fruitless, but we need to acknowledge it as just a theory and stop talking about it as if it’s fact.
Many later European swords also had side rings on both sides, making their hand protection basically perfect. Or, as perfect as would be until swept and other complex hilts developed.
Later European swords added parts like side-rings to the crossguard, giving a wider range of protection, like the Japanese tsuba (guard)
I studied Kenjutsu for many years. There are techniques that if you twist the katana while performing parries you can lock the other sword onto the Tsuba(hand guard). And during actual battle, certain samurai would switch out the tsuba with one that is larger in diameter.
Why not both? Many Crossguards were fitted with a ring guard, which offered similar protections to the tsuba and while katanas and katana-like swords like some daos usually didn't had crossguards, some rare ones did (well, they were more of an S-guard if anything)
Real chads throw pummels
🤓
Another benefit of the cross guard was how it allowed for additional styles such as thumb gripping making it slightly more versatile.
How about we making a sword with round guards, but the guards have 4 quillon like parrying dagger
Pretty sure they made those
I'm personally a fan of European style straight swords ⚔️
some German Messers also have a protruding metal bit (called Nagel/nail) on their lateral side to provide an additional small protection to the hand
My understanding is that because of the hardness of the katana’s edge, one should never ever parry with the edge if at all avoidable. Instead, they parry with the side, or even spine of the sword. Thus, the greater side protection of the katana’s hilt makes more sense.
Vertical sword guard hit my forearm all the time when I swing with my wrist, I enjoy oriental swords more, or claymore with a tilted guard.
Yeah, the biggest advantage of the tsuba is the enhanced range of motion. The longsword guard protects more of the arm but restricts certain movements and forces larger motions for certain strikes than you can achieve with a tsuba
@@Candlemancer agenda officer candlemancer here reinforcing the narrative! Youre dramatizing the "restriction" of a cross guard but then again youre here pushing some kind of agenda so im not surprised
The ones with less hands gaurds are due to the advent and use of gauntlets. The over size quillons many times was to make it easier to index in the hand while bot being able to feel thru metal gloves and mail. If they didnt use gauntlets or mail theyd use versions with more handgaurds.
And this is why the Cutlass continues to be my favorite. Designed to be one-handed, light and maneuverable, and with a sweeping guard that protects nearly the whole hand
I just always found it funny that it always comes down European swords a whole continent of swords vs a small island nation sword.
Can we get a mix of both?
The tsuba on katana is mainly used to draw the sword as you push it with your thumb, and avoid slipping when you thrust. the guard is just a bonus but it’s not thought to be used this way
crossguard with rings: 🗣️🗣️
I think it just comes down to personal preference.
Can we have the cross guard frankensteined onto the tsuba?
There is no real debate. The western cross guard is better. I've done Kendo, Kenjutsu, Iaido, and HEMA. There is no contest. I like Japanese swords a lot, and have more experience with them. That said. Hand shots are way easier with the Tsuba.
So, even without the nobs and upswept quillions, you can trap a blade by twisting your hand. The side thing on a katana is almost nil unless you hold it back a bit from the tsuba...which makes you lose control one handed and control AND power two handed.
tsuba was designed to be easy and convinient to carry and parrying wasnt that important to begin with since katana was a last ditch weapon anyways, also just imagine if both katana and wakizaahi had western style guards, youd be unable to wear them together
Day 195 of asking Marcus to review Tau pulse weapons
Day 196 of asking Marcus to review Tau pulse weapons
I prefer the American "beavertail" style handguard, but then again, I practice the Dr. Jones school of swordfighting.
Bottom line is, the only handguard that is worth a damn is the one you're trained to use.
Wasnt there a video of an actual master from japan using a western style sword and he talked about how much he loves the guard
Don't forget half swording. Nothing like the ol' grab your sword by the blade with both hands and batter your opponent with the crossguard like it's a hammer.
For european crossgaurds if you just twist slightly to either side you extend the guards reach
Why not combine both of them?
I hate tsubas so much. Every time I try to block with one the sword just bounces off and hits my hand anyway
How is the Katana used in comparison to European swords?
Horray for types 4,8, and 9
The most obvious advantage of having the Arming Sword over the Katana is that you won't be called weeb for owning it... just weird.
Has there been an attempt to make a katana crossguard that has a lifting portion on the edges like the european crossguard style? To gain both benefits? Or would that end up to unweildly and weird to properly handle?
Not in Japan that I'm aware of, but in China, civilian dao often had raised lids, though suggested more as additional insurance against rain rather than any deliberate catching on the round guard. See Chinese niuweidao.
I don't inherently like this style of quillions. That little hook is not going to add that much of an advantage. IMO do a simple straight cross guard or do a more aggressive style for catching blades. If they're going through the effort to do a complex shape for the guard do it right and don't just halfa** it.
It's fine to have a simple guard but it's lame to have a mediocre guard cause they don't want to commit.
Cheers. If I may. Suba is wee bit balance, mostly,quick draw. I don't rely on the Suba. European is way superior. Cheers ☘️
Why don’t they do both? Just combine all of the beneficial parts in a design? Does that not work? Seems interesting
Later European swords kind of did, adding side rings to the longsword guard for that purpose. The downside is it makes the sword more cumbersome to wear, which is what you're doing with it 99% of the time.
@@Candlemancer ohhhh, they couldn’t fix that? Also I really kinda wanna hear way more of whatever you got to say. I have at looked at ur channel yet but I’m already so impressed bro😎
Edit: damn you comment a lot and it all sounds so interesting pls talk more on the internet do you have a blog or anything?
@@AnonUserAgain this guy candlemancer is very condescending and pretentious. Its typical amongst fans of this channel. I wouldnt listen to him
@@einarr7301 oh wait really? Oh oh no 😭 I guess I’ll just find something else then. Do you know any nice channels? I always have so much trouble learning anything new because I can’t figure out where to look. I think at least three different things as of late, whenever I search for anything I think might be related, I just get shown different things. I also just really prefer videos because I use my phone, and so I’m plagued by people building rgb gaming pcs when I just want to learn other stuff. Sorry for ranting so much. Thank you so so so much though
You can also turn the sword slightly so that it protects your hand better plus I’d trust steel more
Trust steel more than what? They're both steel.
@@Candlemancer officer candlemancer on patrol
Their steels were on par also a disc is a stronger design whereas the crossguard will bend easier bc force is easier to apply onto it
@@outsideiskrrtinsideihurt699 sword blades dont bend crossguards... you just made that up. Thats some potent cope.
@@einarr7301 swords come in a variety of weight distributions. Some hit heavier than others. Swords also aren’t the only weapons on the battlefield. Plenty more are even weightier. Steel back then was also much worse quality than it is now and much more unpredictable. There’s also no guarantee the crossguard would even be hardened steel. Modern day feders and reproductions aren’t good ways to test such things.
Even then, if you wanted to use modern reproductions, Skallagrim tested the mordhau with a modern Albion which is the best you’ll find and the handle started to bend. He also mentions that he prefers hitting with the pommel because it is more robust and you can bend the guard. I imagine period crossguards would do much worse.
I think what I said still applies: force can be more easily applied to the crossguard because it is a longer, thinner structure.
Why not both?
What about the mordhau?
I once saw a sword with a cross guard as long as the blade.
yoru?
@@brain724 Could be. I think it was Katana style so it almost looked like an umbrella.
I think about this toy katanas I don't know why cuz it looks like it'll easily break
I've studied Kendo and I prefer European swords.
Use a basket hilt
Japanese. Cuz I'm a katana guy.
Female Custodes enthusiast.
Easy, combine them
❤
the cross guard is objectively superior. there is no debate. i do not say this to be a troll or a condescending contrarian. just look at them both. its completely obvious which one has more versatility and offers more protection.
even in full plate, when the cross guards protection becomes unnecessary as the wielder is encased in steel, the cross guard still has a multitude of offensive capabilities that the tsuba just does not have. the cross guard does everything the tsuba can do, and more.
Does it protect your knuckles, thumb and fingers? No? The Tsuba does tho bc it's round shape which protects all sides of the hand, not just the front and rear. Which means it does perfectly what it's meant for, light weight all round protection. Samurai were blitz attackers, they relied on lightning fast strikes and reflexes, not only this but damaging your sword is uncalled for when you can avoid it and still strike back. Meaning bind work was less of a thing for Samurai, unlike European swordsman. Could also have something to do with the toughness of the steel during those times, but ik that samurai were taught to avoid damaging their blade if possible, meaning they always dodged first and only parry deflect when necessary. Unless they can attack first by simply timing an enemies strike and beating them to it. Their strategies are really different from European ones is all I mean lol
@@joshuapena4684 He kinda addressed that though. Wearing plate armor your knuckles would be safe anyways. The japanese also had similar hand protection outside of the sword's guard.
@@joshuapena4684 spring steel longswords in 15th century europe can withstand abuse that differential hardened katana cannot stand up against.
Suffering cuts to the parts of your hand not protected by the crossguard, while completely possible, wasnt a big enough or common enough problem to warrant side rings or various other forms of side guard which seemingly werent deemed to be necessary until the 16th century which is where we see this type of thing really take off.
We have to remember that longsword fencing is very orientated towards defense. The wielder also knows where his weak points are and will defend accordingly. Side rings and other forms of side guards existed on late medieval swords but it was pretty rare. Medieval people werent incompetent. If lack of side guard was a serious enough issue, they would of been standard.
This is also in an armorless context. When youre wearing steel gauntlets, a side ring would be far less useful
i could write an entire thing about the ways this is just wrong but instead i'll simply make 2 points
1. the guy making the video has more then enough experience and info on the subject that you should be listening when he says one isn't objectively better
and 2. you clearly seem to know a lot about longswords but you really need to look into more things with japanese swords since a tsuba did in fact have more uses then just protecting the hand
@@chrono-eventless6956 no, im not wrong, and no, i do not think vance is always correct and at times i disagree with him. no hate, nothing wrong with disagreement. i respect that he has experience in the things he talks about. however, that does not make him infallible.
Katanas break easily
No more easily than European swords of the same periods. And before you say it, spring steel was not remotely the norm for European swords at any point in the medieval period.
@@Candlemancer spring steel was not the norm but it wasnt uncommon either. Knights were filthy rich and could afford themselves the best equipment. There were far more spring steel longswords than you will admit.
You and vance always going on about some agenda. Its pure projection. Its you guys running an agenda. Now begone thread cop
@@Candlemancer spring steel was not the norm but it wasnt nonexistent either. Knights were very wealthy and could afford top of the line equipment. Spring steel swords are frequently depicted in contemporary art and we have surviving examples.
We even see metal crossbow limbs which have to be spring steel or the crossbow wont work. Spring steel is not some magical arcane creation. Medieval people had it and used it. Cope harder
Give it up weebs. The Katana is inferior to an actual sword.
We can infer *so much* about your political views from this comment it's not even funny.
@@Candlemancer stop policing this thread
Why not both?