I think something you should look into is the fact that Toriyama had heavy involvement with Dragon Ball Online (more than the Super anime/manga) and roughly the same involvement with Xenoverse as confirmed in the one-off Xenoverse manga. In other words Toriyama supports multiple continuities.
i care, db is much more than what it is today (pushed by toei) and lives with the fans. That's why well thought out what ifs or re-writes are cool asf , like multiverse of instance
@@deckzone3000 See, here's the problem with that line of thought: Does that then entail that if he did make it, it's automatically canon by default? Are Granolah and the Heeters therefore not canon since they were made by Toyotarō and not Toriyama? Are the movies canon because Toriyama designed characters like Dr. Uiro, Slugg, Coola and his soldiers, Artificial Humans Nos. 13, 14, and 15, Broli, Bojack and his crew, Tapion and Minoshia, etc.? Are the anime-exclusive "filler" segments that Toriyama came up with story ideas and/or character designs for, such as the Fire-Eating Bird, Yamucha's baseball career, the Snake Princess's castle, Gregory, Kaiō-sama telling Gokū about the history of the Saiyans and Tsufurians, the Dai Kaiō, Paikuhan, etc. therefore canon? Is GT canon because Toriyama came up with most of the new designs for the main cast (not just Gokū, Trunks, and Pan, but Vegeta, Goten, Gohan, Videl, Mr. Satan, Oob, Blooma, Bra, and multiple others as well), as well as designs for the group's spaceship, some of the planets they visit and their inhabitants, and some of the story ideas? When you try to simplify everything in the franchise down to "everything Toriyama made is canon and everything he didn't isn't"... you get a LOOOOT of conflicting shit. That is NOT a good gauge to use as a be-all, end-all answer for the absurd "canon" argument.
GT is "canon" in the sense that it is an official part of the body of works that is referred to as "Dragon Ball". As such, another way of putting it is that it is a part of the official "Dragon Ball" canon. However, it's not canon in the sense of being part of the same in-universe continuity as the rest of the series. There's technically three or four different continuities, not counting the video game stuff. These are (in order of Toriyama's involvement): 1. OG Dragon Ball - The end of the Freeza Saga. Technically ends with Trunks getting killed by Cell, and it is from this continuity that Cell comes from. 2. OG Dragon Ball - The end of Z (Without Super). This is the split timeline created in the manga that the Android/Cell Saga and the Buu Saga take place in. 3. OG Dragon Ball - The end of Z (With Super). This is an expanded version of continuity number 2 which fills in the gap between the Buu Saga and the End of Z with additional story content. Most fans regard either 2 or 3 as the main, prime continuity when referring to what is "canon". 4. OG Dragon Ball - GT. This is another variant of number 2 which does not include Super, and has it's own differences regarding lore which are inserted through content taking place after the end of Z. So in short, whether you consider GT canon or not depends on exactly what you mean by "Canon". If you mean in regards to how much involvement Toriyama had in it, it's not much and so it's not technically a part of Toriyama's Dragon Ball Canon. If you mean whether or not it's a part of the official body of works regardless of Toriyama's involvement, then yes it is a part of the Canon. If you mean in regards to it taking place within the same timeline of events as everything else, OG Dragon Ball and Z do happen in the GT Canon, but this is a separate canon to the rest of the series.
Canon doesn't really matter to me anymore. I used to be very particular about it, but it not any more. Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball to me and I want the IP to succeed.
I ultimately agree. I think people are too harsh on it. I've seen so many stories I love peak and descend into madness (The Terminator) that I can pretty much accept the climax of Dragon Ball was probably the Freeza saga. We all hope they can bring it back to those stakes, with all the characters we love being on equal footing again, and we should advocate for that, but I like Super and don't think it ruins anything for now. It's just fun...and I just turned 37! I like having an animated show that's positive and fantasy/science-fiction oriented that doesn't have to be edgy and X-rated, not that I mind that, either.
@Pink Morales That’s pretty subjective no. Many people enjoy Super but I understand you, as well as many others, don’t. I don’t want to use ergo decedo reasoning but you shouldn’t force yourself to watch something you hate.
I like to think as every thing after Future Trunks appearing as a cascading time ripple. From the moment Trunks used the machine the story was given infinite variations. That is to say, the manga is the original and I dont dispute it but I grew up with the anime so that's the one that's nostalgic to me. I think many are similar and argue it because they feel attacked for that same feeling.
Well if you flat out refuse to consume the original material and you are unaware of the difference between canon and non canon events you most likely feel guilt. Less and less people care about whether you prefer one medium over the other.
Facts definitely agree with this, I always felt the in universe explanation for a number of events such as movies, filler, anime continuity etc, happens likely due to future trunks and cell time traveling creating potentially many different timelines/Alternate universes.
Technically Dragon ball nothing is non canon base on how Toriyama sees things. like GT and the movie he mostly considers them as happening in an alternate timeline from the original.
Nope, there is an established canon already. This is just something that people used to say so that they could believe DBZ Broly and DBGT were canon, but its false.
@@commanderchungusboi6758 Which is? Super isn't following Z at this point anymore. You can go ahead and argue all you like, but Super isn't canon. Seems like you're just saying that because you're part of that side of dragon ball who thinks any series beyond Super shouldn't have any fans
One of the things that DBSuper changed is Goku's motivation for fighting if we compare between the original Goku and Super Goku about thier motivation for fighting we find it not the same. The orginal Goku's motivation for fighting: "And for all of the Saiyans that you've killed, as well as the people of this planet......I will take you down". -Dragon Ball Chapter 318 "Let's fight for and win a better peaceful future". -Dragon Ball Chapter 336 "No matter how I look at it, this is the only way I could think of to save the earth". -Dragon Ball Chapter 412 "It's not my turn to save the earth anymore. -Dragon Ball Chapter 475 "This isn't about just protected earth". -Dragon Ball Chapter 518 But let's see what Super Goku's motivation for fighting is: "I just wanted to fight the strongest guys out there". -Dragon Ball Super Manga 61 After Goku said that we hear Piccolo's worst line ever: "You haven't changed a bit from day one". WHAAAAAAT.
The Dragon Ball Super outline is a draft of key characters and details for Dragon Ball Super created by original author Akira Toriyama. God of Destruction Beerus Saga Toriyama suggested that the Battle of Gods movie be adapted into a saga of the Dragon Ball Super anime.[6] Golden Frieza Saga Toriyama suggested that the Resurrection ‘F’ movie be adapted into a saga of the Dragon Ball Super anime.[6] Universe 6 Saga Toriyama designed Champa[7], Vados[8], the five members of Team Universe 6 and Monaka.[9] "Future" Trunks Saga Toriyama designed Goku Black, with the designs noting that he could transform into a Super Saiyan and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color - which he also provided the design for.[1] Toriyama designed Zamasu.[10] The setting being Future Trunks' alternate future, Zamasu's fall to the dark side, the lack of knowing Goku Black's true identity early on in the saga.[2][3] Fused Zamasu as a foe that two Super Saiyan Blues would be more than enough to hold off long enough for his fusion time to run out, Fused Zamasu's immortality being key.[2][3] Toriyama drew part of ""Future" Trunks' Past".[11] Universe Survival Saga Toriyama designed the Tournament of Power arena and the characters Jiren, Top, Dyspo, Ribrianne, Sidra, Quitela, and Korn.[12][13][7] Toriyama jointly designed Belmod and Heles with Toyotarou.[7] After Toei created Kale, Toriyama created Caulifla to go along with her.[13] Super Saiyan is achieved through concentrating energy in the back, causing a tingly feeling.[5] The Tournament of Power was to be eighty people fighting in a jumble.[13] Initially no overview for Jiren's personality was given, but his backstory of his parents and master being killed was added, along with his silent nature.[13] Top is a God of Destruction candidate.[13] The course of events for every Universe 7 warrior (e.g. Piccolo losing to Damon, and who survives until the end).[13] The twist of Majin Buu being replaced by Frieza.[13] The course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11.[14] Perfected Ultra Instinct as a new form for Goku, separate from the Super Saiyan forms.[13] Toriyama drew part of "The Man Named Jiren".[15] Toriyama drew part of "The Super Warriors Gather!, Part 2".[15][16] Toriyama drew part of "Quirky Competitors".[17] Beerus calling Ribrianne cute.[18] Rozie and Kakunsa having the ability to stretch their arms.[18] Toriyama drew part of "Jiren vs. Universe 7".[19] Broly Toriyama wrote the full version of the script.[20] He added much to the character of Broly, notably a sense of innocence.[20] Designs for Cheelai, Lemo and all of Broly's appearances aside from his green-haired Legendary Super Saiyan state.[21] Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga Produced jointly with Toyotarou.[22] Some story elements were entirely created by Toriyama.[23] Toriyama drew part of "To Each Their Own Plans".[24] Toriyama drew part of "Son Goku, Galactic Patrol Officer".[25] Granolah the Survivor Saga Toriyama wrote the draft for this arc.[26] Including elements such as the new information on the Namekians' origins, the introduction of a new set of Dragon Balls, as well as Zuno's role in the story.[27] Toriyama and Toyotarou decided that Vegeta's development would go down a different path from Goku's.[27] Toriyama designed Monaito, originally naming him Slug before changing his name to avoid confusion.[28] Toriyama designed the Sugarians.[28] The Heeters were created by Toriyama.[27] Toriyama helped Toyotarou with his designs for Granolah and the Heeters,[28] putting emphasis on getting the Heeters' designs right.[27] Super Hero Toriyama provides the original concept, wrote the script (including every detail of the dialogue), and drew character designs for the film (changing pre-existing characters to their manga designs rather than those used in the anime). It has been said that he is even more invested in this film than the prior three he wrote.[29]
What matters is his statement, saying, GT is a side-story and everyone shall enjoy it as they please. Side-story to what I would ask ? To the actual "canon" of Dragon Ball Super. And it means, both are "side-stories" on their own, they are, both, not canon, because they both aren't part of the original run of Dragon Ball. Akira Toriyama supervise Toyble's work. It's uncanon, and will always be to my eyes.
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 Doesn't change the fact that Dragon Ball GT's ending is canon to Dragon Ball itself as that's the intended ending for the series(Outside of the Shadow Dragon Saga, of course).
For me core canon will always be the first thing that came out and got finished by the same author,everything else is part of a multiverse. In the case of Dragon Ball the first edition of the manga (AKA the one that was published in Weekly Shonen Jump and/or the first Tankobon) is the thing i see as the core canon,everything else is its own thing.
Yep, finally someone says it! I feel like Db and DBZ are Canon because only the creator worked 100% in it. Dragonball Super is canon too because everything got scripted with Toriyama together. But, the Hero series is just a Fan Service, what i know is, that Toriyama is not writing nor reading the Story.
@@zdc8914 If that's the case, though, it feels like we may as well call GT Canon since Akira Toriyama has roughly about the same involvement in it as he does Super. The involvement process is pretty similar in the fact that he just puts a concept out there and the writers work with said concept.
This is how I look at things... The original Manga, the Dragon Ball and Z parts are Canon to themselves, but not to the Anime, but both Dragon Ball and Z Anime's are Canon to each other. Everything takes place in their own self contained timelines. The Manga is the prime timeline, then you have the original Anime, then branching off of that is the Super Manga and Anime, with each movie taking place in their self contained timelines, I would even have GT branching off the original Anime too. But that's just me.
@@YangyChaddyDad dragon ball and z anime have fillers and GT is connected to them While the super isn't connected to the db manga because it has brought back filler characters and contradict the timeline So super split off from the timeline right after the buu saga
Whenever I see someone saying that Super is "canon", my first question to them is... "Which one? WHICH Dragon Ball Super?" The TV anime? The manga? The movies? Seriously, there are THREE DIFFERENT official versions of the God and God ("Battle of Gods") arc alone... which one is "canon"? It CAN'T be all three. I mean, let's be real... the fact that the VERY FIRST ARC in Dragon Ball Super started out with THREE differing incarnations, and it wasn't even the case that one was an adaptation of another like it was with the original manga and anime of DB/Z... that's NOT a good sign for the simplicity and consumability of your brand. But no, that weird divide just continued and the manga, anime, and movies have continuously intersected and come apart in various unexplained and confusing ways since 2015 and hence Dragon Ball Super has become this insanely confusing mess of a series that has managed to completely turn me off of a franchise that I used to adore. I still love the original run of the series, but 98% of what's come out of the Dragon Ball franchise since 1997 has been a severe disappointment to me at the very least. But, no... I've legitimately had idiots respond to me that they're ALL "canon" because they're all based on Toriyama's story outline notes, and they flat out say that anything that had Toriyama's direct involvement is therefore automatically "canon" by default. Problem with that is, these same fools don't consider the movies, GT, or the anime filler in DB & Z to be "canon", despite the fact that there was a significant amount of character designs and plot ideas that he directly contributed to all of those. Are they "canon" because of that? (Answer: NO.) There are so many different TV series, movies, specials, OVAs, spinoff manga, original stories in video games, etc., etc., etc., in the Dragon Ball media franchise and almost all of them clash with one another in a variety of different ways. If you try to parse out what's "canon" and what isn't out of that humongous mess, you will never arrive at a satisfactory answer and you will have vastly different answers all varying from person to person, and it doesn't help that NO ONE from among Toriyama or anyone at Shueisha, Toei, etc., have ever said anything official on the matter of "canon". That's why I just disregard the question of "canon" entirely. I look at the matter in the most simple and accurate and true way as can possibly be by viewing it like this: The Dragon Ball manga, written and illustrated by Toriyama Akira and serialized in Weekly Shōnen Jump magazine for 519 chapters from November 20th, 1984 to May 23rd, 1995 (some sources will instead say December 3rd, 1984 and June 5th, 1995 respectively, but those are the publication dates printed in the Jump issues, whereas the aforementioned dates are the dates that the issues actually physically went on sale. You see the same exact thing with American comic books and magazines and have for decades upon decades) is the original work that began the Dragon Ball franchise, and everything else in said franchise is some form of adaptation, sequel, spinoff, remake, some combination thereof, etc., that all stem directly from that original, primary source material. Any viewpoint other than that inevitably involves fanon headcanon and I for one am sick and tired of putting up with that headache-inducing argument after 25 years of being in the Dragon Ball fandom.
Dragon Ball super is officially written by toriyama, it's canon, it's follows the same storyline but sdbh is noncanon, it's follows a different storyline but officially of dragon ball universe. A franchise doesn't only have one storyline and only one writer, it has many and that doesn't mean it's not officially part of db universe, For u people 🤦🤦🤦🤦 there is only one writer, which is wrong
Ok...which one. The movies? The manga? The anime? Theres 3 canons now. The manga and anime follow different events. Which is canon goku going kaioken vs hit or goku going ssg vs hit?
@@modernwarrior24 u literally Don't know anything about it, sdbh and xenoverse Manga is different story, it has its official original manga officially written by toyotarou and other official writers and part of dragon ball universe, A fictional universe doesn't only have one storyline and only one writer, Dragon ball universe also has different storylines and writers but officially of their respective universes
Bro in db universe noncanon means a different storyline but officially a part of db universe, but if u say noncanon in western comics it's means unofficial or fan-made, that's why many websites writes wrong and around 70% people got mislead about sdbh which is officially canon in terms of officially part of db universe
I just find it funny how someone who doesn't work in the db franchise decides to make a video and say oh Db super isn't canon when the creators themselves informs us that it's canon. Lmaoo I done seen it all.
A bit dark, but in regards to the absolute highest level of canon "prime timeline" possible for the series, the characters we all come to know and love are all dead aside from a select few. In that original timeline that wasn't at all tampered with by time travel, the original Future Trunks returned from the past having grown stronger from defeating the Androids with the other Z-Fighters of the past timeline he had traveled to, and finally with his own now increased power was able to destroy the Androids in his own time only to end up getting killed by Cell after, who then stole his time machine. We don't know what happened to that original world after this point. The Z-Fighters are pretty much all dead, very few characters we would be familiar with are still alive, but humanity is still around on Earth albeit in smaller numbers due to the Androids. There could still be some kind of room to tell some kind of story there, but it would no longer generally be about the same characters anymore. Effectively, the original, unmodified timeline is one in which everything leading up to that point in the story has ended. This means that a large chunk of the stuff that people consider to be canon is actually in fact parallel universe content. Everything up until the end of the Namek Saga is safe, but from then on things get much more complicated. The Buu Saga in particular is the first full saga to take place entirely within a timeline that is not the original one, and even the Android/Cell Saga barely even mentions it with Cell being the only character in the story being from the original prime timeline who appears in person. As such, the prime timeline's direct storytelling actually ends with the ending of the Namek Saga, and it's relevance ends with the defeat of Cell. From that perspective, not only is Super technically non-canon in the sense that it does not happen within the prime timeline, but it's a continuation of events that already weren't part of the prime timeline.
As much as I HATE super BOTH supers are canon. Manga AND anime. And you know what? GT is also canon. They’re just rotate canons. Like how each bond actor is a different canon for bond. Gt is canon to DBZ anime,super anime is canon to Kai,supers manga is toriyama manga canon. Everyone has something to enjoy :)
Man you lost a lot of weight since this video good shit. Anyways these videos are really getting me through some hard times and some crippling anxiety I'm having. Just want you to know you're making a big difference in my life. Thank you for what you do
Before I say anything else, good video as usual. Now, that title annoys me. It's not up to you it's up to the creators, even if you personally don't agree with it and trust me, I've been there. I was expecting definitive proof, as I do with all things in life. While your information is intriguing, it's still Canon. If your title said "why I think dragon Ball super is not canon", I would not even be writing this message. I think a lot of us can agree that dragon balls creators are not the best writers but for some reason we keep watching because we love the characters.
@@PotentSenzu yea this is why I don't like the Dragon ball community their always infighting and being toxic to the point we're im ashamed to be apart of this fanbase.
even that doesn't work since "canon" isnt subjective. If this guy just wanted to say his piece he shouldve ditched the canon angle entirely but eh, youtube money
@@PotentSenzu Yeah being toxic by being logical. I also said it was a good video and I also said I agree with the points and more words or less. Trying to make someone out to be something they're not just makes you look bad. That phrasing. You know what toxic is? Gaslighting. Let's do an example, you get a letter from a doctor for the sake of his argument, that says you have cancer. You set an appointment you go in, and the doctor says "Let me tell you why I think you have cancer." You can agree to that, but it's not an official, objective, truth until the lab that does the testing comes back and says that you do. But the phrasing of the letter you got was stating that you definitively had cancer. That is the issue.
@@PotentSenzu you responding to the original poster that had a complaint about the video how the fuck is that being a blind supporter? Aside from that, I incorrectly read your comment, and that it's a mistake I can own. If you read the responses phrase towards you, because I thought you were calling me toxic, my mistake.
I discussed this with a buddy a couple of years ago, since we discussed the end of Z and how Super maybe actually have an open ending, since it lies in another timeline or whatever. so, thinking that, Super can still surprise us and doesnt really need to have the end of Z in it at all and, can do whatever they want with it.
They should just say it's a different timeline.end of story why people want them to line it up with Z so bad...for example it can be the timeline where Z didn't happen after the buj saga
technically the canon timeline is future trunks and it was destroyed. everything else is an alternate timeline and debatably stopped being canon at the moment he arrived in the past
To clarify, the movies 1 through 6 are officially Lucas Canon since he made them, especially the prequels since he made them exclusively on his own (which is sighted often to be problem with the prequels and how nobody objected to his ideas). There is no arguing their canonisity.
Yeah i found it weird that he used this as an example, as even though i have heard of and seen people who dont like them, everyone in the fanbase does seem to consider the prequels 100% canon, despite any retcons or contradictions
@@SauronIH well see that's the thing, they are 100% canon and by technicality don't actually recon anything in the Original Trilogy. They only truly retcon stuff introduced in the novels, games, comics, cartoons but till that point, which is fine because if you actually look it up, Lucas had never said His Canon and the Novels were the same Canon, he has always maintained that they are a separate Canon from his own.
I didn’t directly say the prequels were non-canon in the video, just that there’s an argument they don’t belong to the same level of canonicity as the original trilogy. As there are a number of factors working against it. Like the time in between, Lucas’ original intent behind things like the Clone Wars, rise of the Empire and transformation of Anakin to Vader. As others have pointed out, there are some inconsistencies between both trilogies as well. If you want to count them as the Lucas 6 or “real Star Wars movies” then go ahead. But the argument that they’re not on the same level of canon even with Lucas’ increased involvement is still there. And it only becomes even more complicated when you include his original intended version of Star Wars be it in the script stages or prior to Marcia Lucas re-editing episode 4.
While gt was bad… It didn’t butcher Gokus character and ruin it. It wasn’t full of bullshit power creep. It wasn’t poorly written with lazy transformations and constantly pulling shit out of its ass. It was creative. Maybe it wasn’t the best but I prefer it over the shit show we currently have
The way I see it pretty much all official DB material is "canon", each separate story/series just takes place in it's own timeline. I believe this mainly because we know from Xenoverse and Heroes that there are infinite timelines in the Dragon Ball verse.
Sdbh Manga was officially written by official writer toyotarou and got released in 2012, it's a different storylines but officially a part of db universe, Dragon ball also has many other official writers other than akira toriyama, like toyotarou and other they are literally official writers of dragon ball. Yes the anime was made for the promotion of the game but the manga was officially released in 2012, that's officially of dragon ball universe not just for the game
@@Shahaneh Bro in db universe noncanon means a different storyline but officially a part of db universe, but if u say noncanon in western comics it's means unofficial or fan-made, that's why many websites writes wrong and around 70% people got mislead about sdbh which is officially canon in terms of officially part of db universe
While the video made some good points at the beggining, at the end it all boiled down to " i dont agree with the author" which is completely ridiculous and definitely not objective( the video actually deforms at the end into an angry critique of the product). Toyotaro says in the first volume " all that has to do with the story comes from Toriyama sensei, i come up with ideas every now and then". And considering that the general outline of the story of the anime is largely the same as the manga, Toriyamas involvement is definitely not small.
Yeah that canon debate stuff doesn't really matter. If you like something you like it and enjoy watching it if however you don't then you don't that's all that matters Nothing comes close to beating the original run regardless
@@crystalwater505 always has been pretty lame people act like man childs just cause they don’t like super it’s weird to me super definitely isn’t amazing but it generally had some great moments, so take it or leave it simple.
Ever since future trunks was introduced I realized that dragon ball exist on a multiverse type of plane I brush off the non Canon as a completely different multiverse and just enjoy the anime as it happens lol. Super only solidified my multiverse theory even more. I came up with it when dbgt came out. Even gokus personality is different in all series I know this is just my own justification and is only backed by my on rationalization and the only way I can just say it's all Canon which it should be since it's all official dragon ball content and not like fan art
This statement is true despite what people say or how they feel about the show. You don't need to fully support or not criticize something if you like it. Everything you said was very true and I have recently come around to not going with "word of God" statements. Even if Toriyama literally wrote the whole thing it's like if it doesn't line up it doesn't line up and souch time has passed he is not going to be in the same mindset as when he made the original
@@lost.name636brother9he is, but once toyotaro becomes the owner of db he will be the writer, watch everyone say dbs is non canon bc the owner of db didnt write db
Just because dbs has diffrent writers, it doesn't mean that it is or isn't canon. Shows on tv has diffrent writers for each of it's episodes too - that doesn't mean that they are all diffrent continuities. Each of the episodes and seasons are made to tell a bigger story. One big continuity. If Toriama starts writing his own db manga again, and he picks up the story from where his own db manga ended, with Goku flying of with Uub, and he includes ultra instict, Beerus, and everything else from dbs, in his own manga, thats when we will know if he sees dbs as true or at least close to true canon,.. or if Toriama just straight out says that it is or isn't. Everything is canon until it's not, thats what im trying to say. And just because you don't like how something is written, doesn't mean that it isn't canon, even something like gt.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 its co-written. And people use that as a reason for it to not being canon to dragon ball. Some people think that Toriyama has little to no involvement in the making of super, just like gt
@@edwardjones1482 thats not exactly what i took from the video. Didnt he say that it is secondary canon or something. So not part of the main continuity that is dragon Ball. A spin off that is its own continuity, so not canon. Even the title of the vid is why dbs isn't canon, and im trying to say that it is
I tried explaining to someone that toriyama didn’t have much to do with it and is not canon on instagram and everyone went off on me telling me that I have no idea what I’m talking about and he worked very closely with everyone. They are just saying that he worked super closely on everything to keep the purists interested. These people need to just admit that they don’t care about the story and like super for what it is. They told him that they were going to continue the story that he ended with or without him and that’s that. Super can’t make a single good villain except beerus and they made him a good guy. Loved the battle of gods movie but it will never feel canon
Toriyama also outlined the plot for dbs, not the story. This still makes its more canon than gt, which means, out of all dbz sequels, it is the most plausible canon. Also, a lot of people seem to forget that battle of gods was made in response to dragon ball evolution. Toriyama hated it so much that he decided to continue the story from dbz. Battle of gods is canon 100% as, based on your comment, it is the author giving it 100% of his effort. It may not necessarily be in manga originally, but toriyama being so pissed about an american dbz that he wanted battle of gods made is 100% author effort.
In terms of prequals, the original author has nothing to do with canon. Berserk, Naruto-Boruto, HunterXHunter and so fourth all have different story writters. Canon is whats official and works in the story. Lots of anime have multiple writters and not just anime. For elder scrolls there is a writter who left bethesda yet the story he writes is still canon despite being entirely new writters being paid to make the stories. I agree Super isnt canon but not because of Akira, it doesnt fit in the story.
@@colmeiadaangela1026 except he did. Why you think he writes the drafts of what happens in both arcs and gives them to both the tv and manga team? Because he’s in control
Remember when jiren was the cloaked apprentice in the episode preview but they then switched it all of a sudden before the launch of the coming episode *that's because after the frieza revival arc they were just coming up with random target board scenarios and seeing whatever made sense to them. It wasn't a fully realized story being told/shown to us , all concepts were all being done on the fly* they did us dirty.
@@_mango_ yes, they literally changed plot information at the last moment before airing. It was if they weren't satisfied even though they went it over with the other directors and producers
I mean the Dragon Ball manga was the same it's the reason we got 17, 18 and Cell plus all his forms. We have to take into consideration that at the end of the day all these stories are someone's first experience we have to accept that.
@@thequestion174 yeah but Akira had a good sense of theming. Instead of going from serious to nonsensical, it stayed consistent and changed slowly. Android 17, 18, 19, Gero and Cell were all treated as big foes with a serious and mature tone. The arcs prior were also very serous. You didn't go from a silly adventure style saga to a suddenly serious saga like GT and Super. It grew slightly darker each arc. Plot holes aside, with a little suspension of disbelief you get a thematically and meticulously crafted story.
It's your opinion dude, but Akira Toriyama would have the say that Dragon Ball Super is apart of the Prime Cannon timeline. Also, Toriyama probably would love to fill that time Gap for the longest time. But it's never easy to explain it.
I'm planning on doing a video, saying why the "so-called" end of z isn't canon, first of all we have to use z manga and pair it to yo son goku and his friends return special, which is canon seeing it took place after few years of the buu arc, then that led to a month later after the special battle of gods, then a year later for revival of freiza
@@maymay5600 Yeah more like it was going to be expanded upon at some point, and Akira Toriyama is still involved by emails and Manuscripts, people refuse to see that Toriyama would like to fill the time Gap from the end of the Buu saga to the time of the 28th martial arts tournament. And people just refuse to see that. As anyways Dragon Ball Super will cover that event and then expand on it as well as go past that original ending starting to go into the time of which if GT was written by Toriyama then that's what you'd see. I'm also sure that if they'll reuse some characters from that show and rework them at some point.
Also remember toriyama doesnt even write the super manga. All he does is literally send bullet points in emails and corrects a few things. Toyotoro and toei are the ones who do the rest.
@@modernwarrior24 In the case of this current arc the Super manga is in, Toriyama is writing it for the most part but Toyotaro is writing the dialogue for the first few pages with input from Toriyama himself. Technically, Toriyama wants to leave the series with someone he can trust as when he passes in the future, Dragonball can keep thriving.
Finally I hear a Dragon Ball channel owner that says he doesn't like DBS. I am with you Mike I didn't like DBS either while I absolutely love GT and I don't give a damn if it's not canon as in my opinion only it's a more relatable story. Hack the movies are not canon while some of them fit perfectly into the normal timeline, besides the fact that for a plot service Kakarrot seems to forget he is a SSJ. Also let's not forget about DBS that so many love about dear Kakarrot who caused the tournament of power just for the pleasure of fighting, while putting his family, friends and other universes in danger. That doesn't mean he is a bad guy but certainly not much thinking there.
DBS is not canon because is his own continuity of the story, just like the TMNT comics are a separated continuity to the cartoons and movies. The only real canon is the DB manga.
considering that toriyama himself has admitted to not only forgetting, but not even bothering to go back and check his previous works to keep it consistent, the issue of "canon" in dragon ball is a fruitless one. if toriyama himself doesn't care, then it would be pointless for me to...so basically everything is canon- even if it contradicts
The creators (toriyama and toei) never used words "canon" or "not canon". They said "Dbs is the official story". But US translators decided that it meant "canon" for some reason. DBGT by the way also "the official story".
@@Cure4Brains thats because NOBODY uses the words "canon," not even Toriyama. The word might as well be meaningless if you gonna get that pedantic about it
If you actually look Into Super ina deeper level, you really shouldn’t even be thinking it’s canon. Better to see it as a side thing rather than canon.
Not really. Toriyama and toei never used words "canon" or "not canon". They said "Dbs is the official story". But US translators decided that it meant "canon" for some reason. DBGT by the way is "the official story" too.
@@Cure4Brains thats because NOBODY uses the words "canon," not even Toriyama. The word might as well be meaningless if you gonna get that pedantic about it
Ok but whats canon? The beerus saga had 3 freaking different iterarions. The movie the anime then the manga. The goku vs hit fight has hin going ssb kaioken in the anime but in the manga has goku going ssg??? Which is canon. None of this would of been messy if the anime simply followed the manga.
Well anything from Toriyama himself is Canon. So yes super is Canon but if your opinion it's not Canon then that's your opinion and I will respect that but disagree with you. You got my like though.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 There is no logical explanation. Toriyama owns the show. What he says goes. It's canon. and LSM is a 🤡 for being so salty he'd say toriyama is wrong about it being canon LOL End of story.
*dragon ball super retcons goku having always been an adult created by the gods and sent to earth to protect it* DBS fans: "Guess the first 6 arcs of dragon ball are non-canon now."
My fundamental issue with Dragon Ball Super is that is does contradict the ending of Z. If Goku and Vegeta are able to evolve into Ultra Instinct and Super Ego respectively, then why would Goku feel the need to train Uub at the end of the series to be the protector of Earth? Goku doesn't seem like the type of character to pass the buck onto someone else. He wants to get stronger. So does Vegeta. Vegeta even said during the Brolly movie that he is going to keep training to be on guard in case Freiza tried anything. So we're meant to believe both these guys at some point in the future of this timeline will go "Here you go kid, its up to you to defend the Earth against God level threats." I don't care how much God Ki Uub has inside him, no chance he will stand a chance against any future threat. Not like Goku and Vegeta are going on vacation. To put another way, I see Super as a "What if they went in this direction after the Buu arc." I see Dragon Ball GT as "What if this happened after the ending of Z." Like Mike said, its there own thing. Dragon Ball ended with the Buu arc. Everything else? No more than What If stories.
If Saiyans can only stay in their prime for a finite amount of years and assuming the end of Z has Vegeta and Goku reaching nearly 50 years of age or being a lil past that, you would only have x amount of decades left before they start rapidly aging and not being able to have the amount of powers they had in their physical prime. Goku himself knew that he's not gonna be around forever and preparing the next generation is the best thing for him. Uub has the potential to essentially use Ultra instinct if taught by Goku. And from what I know from what Geekdom explains, Toriyama is involved no matter what, through emails and manuscripts. Dragon Ball Super is meant to explain everything that's gone on between the end of Buu saga to the tournament at the end of Z. I do disagree with Mike and you. But I'd like both of you to read between the lines. Super exists to fill the time Gap of the last Saga of the original run and the ending of that manga, a creator still can be very involved in their own way but they don't have to be the one drawing each panel.
Um no... This is just blatant downplay of uub and by this logic the end of z makes no sense so is it even Canon? If it doesn't fit Goku's character than end of z isn't Canon I guess. What if Goku did this after the end of dragon ball is basically DBZ in a nutshell. This argument doesn't downplay the continuity of dbs. Buu arc is basically what if this happened after the cell saga. Like really? This idea has no real value.
@@maritimesteak8540 I disagree to an extent, you can say portions of the end of Z with the tournament wouldn't make sense anymore as with Toriyama and Toyotaro further continuing the story, as Toriyama writes a manuscript or story while also communicating via email... It essentially expands what Toriyama intended for the end of the original manga. Z wasn't a what if, they put Z as a way in the anime to explain that this is Goku's adventures and battles in his adult life. That's why they didn't call that portion DragonBall. And then the future trunks stuff in Super like the blue hair for future trunks was to differentiate between the kid Trunks in Super and Future Trunks.
I think too many people put stock behind the ending of Z. It's not like Toriyama hasn't retconned things before (DB Minus comes to mind). But basically, Super is the current storyline that Toriyama and Toyotaro are working and adding to. GT has, at this point, been relegated to a alternate timeline/universe. So that really should be all the answer needed to this question.
There are a lot of other retcons and conflicts super introduces that don't even need to tie back to the end of Z or even Z at all to introduce problems. That being said it still makes more sense than Z does and it doesn't matter to me because none of Z, Super or GT is anywhere remotely close to as good as OG Dragonball to begin with
The way this media franchise is implemented & designed like power scaling and who can beat who for example in this day and age due to the size of the product is to make it universal for years to come for future readers & viewers so they look back into the old scripts (manga) which ends up maintaing a fandom (community), leading to speculative fans eating every crumb & wanting more like toys and cards DBS & DBH, even though the canon, the mainline script is not 110% accurate, it's a smart business idea really.
Both DBGT and DBS are kinda bad, and neither one deserves to be considered canon. To me Dragon Ball ended with Z, and I don't accept anything that came after as anything but side stories.
I see this way: Canon: Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z Alternative Timeline: Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z + Dbz movies + GT Alternative Timeline 2: Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z + Dragon Ball Minus + Dragon Ball Super
the way i see it mike, everything is cannon, even heros anime, games etc. just a different timeline/universe. like i see where you are coming from sayin it is it's own continuity, kinda dug a hole with super and the end of z, now it really is starting to feel kinda like a GT. but we will just have to see what happens as the current super arc is deathly close to the end of Z
I'll be honest: I agree that contradictions makes "canon" vague. However, I disagree with you in terms of what Toriyama considers canon. As far as anyone is concerned, what you mentioned in this video can be said about a thousand things, and yet, in the end, the one who has the last word is Toriyama, and if he has contradictions or nit in his story, many can make their own opinions, but ultimately, if he decides it's canon, unless it ruins or contradicts his work in a big way, it's canon. Period. If there are contradictions or not isn't what makes Toriyama's work canon, he does, and if we can give those contradictions an explanation, neat, but it won't change canon.
LITERALLY. Laughingstock media proved himself to be unreliable with this, and it's something i remembeer when i hear him trying to upgrade confirmed gohan feats, like saying adult gohan who fought dabura would beat super perfect cell when he nearly one shotted ssj2 TEEN gohan. He hits adult gohan one time and gohan is gone.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 and in dbs super heroes movie bulma wish to shenron for stop my aging and maintain my younger version and in the end of the Z bulma is too much old and Super events is Contradict the end of Z like just a Joke and nothing happens like Z???
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 ya i am also think everyday super is actually non canon and may be Dbs is The Alternate timeline of dbz Multiverse like future trunks timeline and DBGT timeline
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 gt not canon the story was made by toei while for super akira does drafts for the story, gt is consistent to the anime of z but contradicts db manga, super does contradict but let’s be real akira and toyotaro are people who mainly write the story as it moves they don’t look back into everything from 30 years ago so they eventually gonna contradict the story for the plot or cause they forgot
@@KaiserMattTygore927 they obviously didn’t, the cut not even halfway because they got emotional since that’s what fanboys do. He clearly states what’s canon and not at least to him.
Super literally keeps retconning the entire series multiple times so I'd say it isn't canon. It's pretty lazy to keep retconning dbz. Like if you care about your story then you'll stick with it
@leonardoalvarenga7572 yes it is the retcons. The story of super could be terrible and not retcon the crap out of everything. At least leave what came before alone. But nope they have to ruin all of that too.
Toriyama won't say anything is canon because Toei doesn't use the word. In DB the only thing that is canon is the manga, and everything else is derivitive of it. GT is based on the anime. The movies are original ideas, and Super is based on the post Buu saga movies, not written by Toriyama. His name is just used for marketing. Toyotaro mostly does his own thing with the manga, and Super does entirely their own thing with the anime. Toyotaro might just briefly keep Toriyama up with his ideas and thats it. People really think DB is the same as comics, but its nott.
I look at it this way: DB and Z are followed up by GT. DB and then Kai are followed up by Super. It's just a different timeline. That's the only way I can make sense of all the retcons that Super provided. Different timeline, different rules.
Gt isn't Canon super and Kai are just adaptations of the same book the Manga is Canon it's that simple anime onlys don't understand that everything is just a side story or adaptation of the Manga It's not hard to understand
@@dafade2254 As much as I HATE super BOTH supers are canon. Manga AND anime. And you know what? GT is also canon. They’re just rotate canons. Like how each bond actor is a different canon for bond. Gt is canon to DBZ anime,super anime is canon to Kai,supers manga is toriyama manga canon. Everyone has something to enjoy :) Kai is seperate canon from z like how z is from the z portion of the manga.
I mean at the end of the day, he still wrote out the plotlines for Super and did character designs, if he literally didn’t do anymore stories for Dragonball, Super really wouldn’t be seen as canon. I’m not saying you don’t have a point in regards to his memory on things but Toriyama had no reason to even do more Dragonball if he was truly done with it. It had been 18 Years and yes, it would make sense he’d want to come back after after almost 20 Years but the fact he continued to make more when he didn’t have to just can’t make me ignore Super as Canon. As up and down this series has been with it getting higher by TOP, Broly, Moro and Grahnola and Super Hero with still some flaws but not as much as it used to be, I can’t really be as upset with it as I was after the end of the Future Trunks Arc.
Yea they are like literally toei is pathetic and still holding one piece captive with its 1 chapter per episode pacing and toriyama just said its cannon to cash out🤷♂️ same with kishimoto. Look at harry potter just cause an author tacs on a bunch of bullshit 20 yrs aftwr the stories over because there senile doesn’t make it really cannon. Logic should overrule the authors word in very specific cases
Super isn't canon because The original manga of Dragonball make it not possible. Just like how GT cannot be canon, because Cooler appears in 1 singular frame
Duuude don't ruin my anime nowwwww :P I recently watched Super after MANY years of not watching Dragon Ball/Z/GT. I'm 26 and used to watch DB when I was a kid. Cannot tell you how happy I was when i discovered super and the super related movies. Great Stuff! Great Animation and just good ole DBZ!
Dragonball Super kind of undermines the 10 year time gap episodes of Z. Who cares about the reincarnation of Buu when you introduce gods that can literally make universes disappear? Uub kind of loses importance.
let's be honest. canon or not doesn't matter. some of my favorite dragonball content is non canon. Cooler for example. Really loved both his movies and technically Metal Cooler remained unbeaten. If Goku never overloaded the big Gete Star, no Shot Vegeta and Goku at their max back then would have beaten him. The movies and the music were phenomenal. Janemba was also a character I really liked. What do I care if they are canon? I already made "canon" memories with them :D
I agree, a lot of my favorite Dragon Ball things ever are considered "non cannon" What annoys me though, is how Super fans crap on great DBZ stories just because they aren't "canon" they seem to only see the value in something that is recent, popular, and connected to Super.
This is why I’m subscribed to this channel, this guy takes my thoughts and conveys them into full sentences and puts them in a well put video. Great video mike, I know damn well the crayon eaters are not gonna like this one, but that’s okay the ones that like to be edgy and bitch about shit like this are the ones that know the least of what they’re talking about about.
people care way too much about what's "officially" canon and what's not. Pick and choose what you want to believe is canon. If you don't like something, come up with your own headcanon, nobody is stopping you... just don't try and force your opinions on other people.
By the way, instead of seeing it from the perspective of canon, I would recommend you consider looking at it in the sense that all contradictions and retcons, as well as "true endings" and what-not as prototypes, because, by the end of the day, Toriyama still continues to make more DB content with Toyotaro as his illustrator, so, basically, you could argue that the essence of what made DB canon was lost, yet it won't really change the canon of current DB, since, as far as the manga's continuation and adaptation, the canon of Dragon Ball has always been part of what Toriyama is doing from moment to moment, so everything before is meaningless if he decides to move on from that, and that would make everything that transpired before just a stepping stone for what comes next, because it didn't end in the Frieza arc, it didn't end in the Cell arc, it didn't end in the Buu arc, and while it's true that DB used to have an "ending", it was only valid until Toriyama decided to continue DB with DBS, since, wether or not the "ending" is retconned or not, Toriyama is still working on it, and the story continues, so, really, opinions aside, the essence of DB will be decided by him, not by "prototypes" or "past contradictions and retcons" that hold no meaning in the current manga. In any case, Toriyama considers it canon, and so it is.
The real question is has Toriyama ever used the term “canon”. It’s fans interpreting what they think he would consider “canon”. In fact, it’s only ever so called fans claiming xyz to be “canon”.
Sdbh Manga was officially written by official writer toyotarou and got released in 2012, it's a different storylines but officially a part of db universe, Dragon ball also has many other official writers other than akira toriyama, like toyotarou and other they are literally official writers of dragon ball. Yes the anime was made for the promotion of the game but the manga was officially released in 2012, that's officially of dragon ball universe not just for the game
Super introduces so many new characters and lores into the dragon ball universe. These elements such as angle powers and godlike transformations regardless of their quality(or lack there of) are undeniably Canon. Dragon ball has never been logically sound in its worldbuilding and narratives, and in an unorthodox way this has become one of its trademark characteristics. What is thematically consistent is the continuous dissection and development of essential characters. Although some of these character developments are only present within their own self-contained arcs and can gradually become stagnant due to the writer's change of mind, they still serve as important bedrock and springboard for the new current character development to happen.
Character development? But most of the main cast regresses in character rather than develop. For example, in the Buu saga, Chi-Chi is fine with Goten fighting and training and she even trains him herself. Yet in Dragon Ball Super, she regresses back to how she was in the Saiyan saga and doesn't want Goten to train, she wants him to stay at home and study.
Honestly dragon ball super is just a huge shit stain on the franchise’s legacy. Toriyama really should have just retired and instead had someone who actually knew what they were doing take over instead. Dragon ball super, especially episode 66 onwards is a travesty. The absolute worst writing in dragon ball history.
My opinion on the matter is that it all comes down to author’s intent, if Toriyama says it’s canon then it’s canon end of discussion. Saying that something isn’t canon even though it is a definitive continuation created by the original creator is just so negative in my opinion, sometimes it can be fun to over analyze the connectivity of things but when you start saying something matters less than another thing it starts getting toxic, I don’t like GT but I’m not going to tell someone that they’re invalid for preferring it to DBS, at the end of the day we’re all just people with opinions and preferences so I don’t like it when people say certain preferences matter less than others.
Tip: don't think about it canon and non cannon is just different timelines. Thinking It like that makes it way less messy. All dbz media was all just different timelines
Personally, it hasn’t been canon in a very long time not even Dragon Ball Z is canon if you think about it because at the end of Dragon Ball Z they had an episode for Uber, which is non-canon but then again and super direct and like that episode didn’t exist because later on when he’s searching for 17 before the tournament of power, if you actually watched dragon ball, super closely supreme court, not supreme Kai, but then they mentioned something about a kid which is Uber that was born with extra powers that he needs me
And technically as explained in this video everything that's official dragon ball made content is it's own continuity in the dragon ball verse. Meaning everything is canon. But the 1st broly movie isn't Canon to the z anime but it's own separate continuity. Just because something isn't made by the same writer doesn't make it not cannon. Does it make it difficult yes and in some cases requires retcons. But it is canon in one way or another whether we like it or not. It's Canon and it's the main continuation of z Kai.
if it's the continuation of kai then why is buu in super? Its obvious super's retcons makes it invalidate it's own existence to z and kai. I think he did a good job in the vid explaining cannon and using it as a ranking system. Where he sorts works of the dragon ball franchise at different levels of cannons, instead of labeling them as being either fully cannon or non cannon. And you are 100% right super is cannon because it was official and was made to be a interqual, or sequal?? if it was db kai, of the dragonball franchise, there is no changing that, but each of these retcons for z and kai super makes, makes it less cannon to the original base. This was the main point laughing stock media was trying to make in his vid. He doesn't cover the cannon level of movies really in the vid but they are obviously on the bottom tier of the cannon list, since they are in all sense non cannon to the original stories. And dragon ball super should be right below dbz and db, not on the same level but close. Since the only differences are retcons here and there.
@@michealbanksjr.3630 fat buu wasn't in z kai at all. Infact z kai ended at the cell saga when trunks killed imperfect cell in the future timeline. It's true z kai would be a proper start though for db super compared to regular dbz. And I don't want to use majin buu not being in kai to prove why kai can't be a continuation of super when you can chalk that up to it having happened off screen. But you never know. Super still has it's inconsistencies to even kai.
@@coolergurp8921 you are right and wrong. You’re right because z kai did end when future trunks killed cell, but you’re also wrong because the kai dub came back a few years later and finished the dubbing the buu saga. Fat buu or majin buu in general is in fact shown in kai.
![Megan Thee Stallion - Bigger In Texas [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QxTkZTLWdo4/mqdefault.jpg)
I think something you should look into is the fact that Toriyama had heavy involvement with Dragon Ball Online (more than the Super anime/manga) and roughly the same involvement with Xenoverse as confirmed in the one-off Xenoverse manga. In other words Toriyama supports multiple continuities.
Wait he had involvement with Xnoneverse??
@@StevenJones851 he created the base of dragon ball xenoverse
@@mohamedlamin2968 well that's cool
ok and?
@@afroanime4589 it means anything can be a canon
The way I see it is simple: If Toriyama doesn’t care, then why should I?
Thank you.
FACTS
i care, db is much more than what it is today (pushed by toei) and lives with the fans. That's why well thought out what ifs or re-writes are cool asf , like multiverse of instance
@@motozappa225 yeah but it gets too a point where it's not good anymore
@@deckzone3000 See, here's the problem with that line of thought: Does that then entail that if he did make it, it's automatically canon by default?
Are Granolah and the Heeters therefore not canon since they were made by Toyotarō and not Toriyama?
Are the movies canon because Toriyama designed characters like Dr. Uiro, Slugg, Coola and his soldiers, Artificial Humans Nos. 13, 14, and 15, Broli, Bojack and his crew, Tapion and Minoshia, etc.?
Are the anime-exclusive "filler" segments that Toriyama came up with story ideas and/or character designs for, such as the Fire-Eating Bird, Yamucha's baseball career, the Snake Princess's castle, Gregory, Kaiō-sama telling Gokū about the history of the Saiyans and Tsufurians, the Dai Kaiō, Paikuhan, etc. therefore canon?
Is GT canon because Toriyama came up with most of the new designs for the main cast (not just Gokū, Trunks, and Pan, but Vegeta, Goten, Gohan, Videl, Mr. Satan, Oob, Blooma, Bra, and multiple others as well), as well as designs for the group's spaceship, some of the planets they visit and their inhabitants, and some of the story ideas?
When you try to simplify everything in the franchise down to "everything Toriyama made is canon and everything he didn't isn't"... you get a LOOOOT of conflicting shit. That is NOT a good gauge to use as a be-all, end-all answer for the absurd "canon" argument.
When you think about the limited contributions Akira has made to super, it gives GT just as much canon credibility.
No it doesn't
Limited contributions? you mean the entire story outline for the anime and the manga?
No, it doesn't. It's not canon deal with it.
@@-Alpeter it is
GT is "canon" in the sense that it is an official part of the body of works that is referred to as "Dragon Ball". As such, another way of putting it is that it is a part of the official "Dragon Ball" canon. However, it's not canon in the sense of being part of the same in-universe continuity as the rest of the series.
There's technically three or four different continuities, not counting the video game stuff. These are (in order of Toriyama's involvement):
1. OG Dragon Ball - The end of the Freeza Saga. Technically ends with Trunks getting killed by Cell, and it is from this continuity that Cell comes from.
2. OG Dragon Ball - The end of Z (Without Super). This is the split timeline created in the manga that the Android/Cell Saga and the Buu Saga take place in.
3. OG Dragon Ball - The end of Z (With Super). This is an expanded version of continuity number 2 which fills in the gap between the Buu Saga and the End of Z with additional story content. Most fans regard either 2 or 3 as the main, prime continuity when referring to what is "canon".
4. OG Dragon Ball - GT. This is another variant of number 2 which does not include Super, and has it's own differences regarding lore which are inserted through content taking place after the end of Z.
So in short, whether you consider GT canon or not depends on exactly what you mean by "Canon". If you mean in regards to how much involvement Toriyama had in it, it's not much and so it's not technically a part of Toriyama's Dragon Ball Canon. If you mean whether or not it's a part of the official body of works regardless of Toriyama's involvement, then yes it is a part of the Canon. If you mean in regards to it taking place within the same timeline of events as everything else, OG Dragon Ball and Z do happen in the GT Canon, but this is a separate canon to the rest of the series.
Why Dragon Ball Super isn't Canon
DBS haters: This does put a smile on my face
Neither fanboy, nor hater: Well, that's just how it is.
There’s some parts I like, but I genuinely hate it.
High IQ play by Mike. DBS fanboys will blow this video up to defend it.
I actually do hate dragon ball super lmao
@Pink Morales u don’t have to acknowledge it as long as u know it’s canon then u good
Canon doesn't really matter to me anymore. I used to be very particular about it, but it not any more.
Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball to me and I want the IP to succeed.
I ultimately agree. I think people are too harsh on it. I've seen so many stories I love peak and descend into madness (The Terminator) that I can pretty much accept the climax of Dragon Ball was probably the Freeza saga. We all hope they can bring it back to those stakes, with all the characters we love being on equal footing again, and we should advocate for that, but I like Super and don't think it ruins anything for now. It's just fun...and I just turned 37! I like having an animated show that's positive and fantasy/science-fiction oriented that doesn't have to be edgy and X-rated, not that I mind that, either.
@Pink Morales By rise from the ashes do you mean be relevant to you or consistently profitable?
@Pink Morales That’s pretty subjective no. Many people enjoy Super but I understand you, as well as many others, don’t. I don’t want to use ergo decedo reasoning but you shouldn’t force yourself to watch something you hate.
@Pink Morales Disagree but I respect your opinion.
@Pink Morales arc black, power tournament, arc moro and arc granolah laughed at you...
I like to think as every thing after Future Trunks appearing as a cascading time ripple. From the moment Trunks used the machine the story was given infinite variations. That is to say, the manga is the original and I dont dispute it but I grew up with the anime so that's the one that's nostalgic to me. I think many are similar and argue it because they feel attacked for that same feeling.
Yeah there's multiple Dragon Ball Timelines
Go watch Rick and morty
@@dunkdon158 that show sucks no offense
Well if you flat out refuse to consume the original material and you are unaware of the difference between canon and non canon events you most likely feel guilt. Less and less people care about whether you prefer one medium over the other.
Facts definitely agree with this, I always felt the in universe explanation for a number of events such as movies, filler, anime continuity etc, happens likely due to future trunks and cell time traveling creating potentially many different timelines/Alternate universes.
Technically Dragon ball nothing is non canon base on how Toriyama sees things. like GT and the movie he mostly considers them as happening in an alternate timeline from the original.
Nope, there is an established canon already. This is just something that people used to say so that they could believe DBZ Broly and DBGT were canon, but its false.
The only movie i could find canon (for both Z and GT) is Cooler's revenge, Bojack unbound, fusion reborn and wrath of the dragon
@Duc Pham Hoai that maybe true because let’s be honest the fans love the fuck out of this franchise and won’t just let it die
Agree
@@commanderchungusboi6758 Which is? Super isn't following Z at this point anymore. You can go ahead and argue all you like, but Super isn't canon. Seems like you're just saying that because you're part of that side of dragon ball who thinks any series beyond Super shouldn't have any fans
A rare camera appearance by the legendary Mike himself. But would a appearance by Harold be more legendary???
Legendary Super Saiyan Mike
@@robotmafia000 it doesn't matter the size of the camera, Harold's muscularity couldn't fit in frame.
@@ericocccams5865 he's swole
He’s simply possess him with his “SPOOKY GAINS” again anyways.
Maybe at 150K subscribers?
One of the things that DBSuper changed is Goku's motivation for fighting if we compare between the original Goku and Super Goku about thier motivation for fighting we find it not the same.
The orginal Goku's motivation for fighting:
"And for all of the Saiyans that you've killed, as well as the people of this planet......I will take you down".
-Dragon Ball Chapter 318
"Let's fight for and win a better peaceful future".
-Dragon Ball Chapter 336
"No matter how I look at it, this is the only way I could think of to save the earth".
-Dragon Ball Chapter 412
"It's not my turn to save the earth anymore.
-Dragon Ball Chapter 475
"This isn't about just protected earth".
-Dragon Ball Chapter 518
But let's see what Super Goku's motivation for fighting is:
"I just wanted to fight the strongest guys out there".
-Dragon Ball Super Manga 61
After Goku said that we hear Piccolo's worst line ever:
"You haven't changed a bit from day one".
WHAAAAAAT.
Thank you! I hate how people say he was the same in the original manga - it's not true at all!
Don't take quotes out of context next time and it'll all make sense.
@@N.N01 what are you talking about?
Goku's motivation is clearly changed in Dragon ball super whether you like it or not.
@@unboxingthepast they didn't watch the manga clearly or even the anime that's why they said that.
@@spiritualwarrior5690 no, Goku has multiple motivations, one of which you cherry picked to devalue the others.
Not being able to remember is an excuse. Literally he can just read.
The Dragon Ball Super outline is a draft of key characters and details for Dragon Ball Super created by original author Akira Toriyama.
God of Destruction Beerus Saga
Toriyama suggested that the Battle of Gods movie be adapted into a saga of the Dragon Ball Super anime.[6]
Golden Frieza Saga
Toriyama suggested that the Resurrection ‘F’ movie be adapted into a saga of the Dragon Ball Super anime.[6]
Universe 6 Saga
Toriyama designed Champa[7], Vados[8], the five members of Team Universe 6 and Monaka.[9]
"Future" Trunks Saga
Toriyama designed Goku Black, with the designs noting that he could transform into a Super Saiyan and a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color - which he also provided the design for.[1]
Toriyama designed Zamasu.[10]
The setting being Future Trunks' alternate future, Zamasu's fall to the dark side, the lack of knowing Goku Black's true identity early on in the saga.[2][3]
Fused Zamasu as a foe that two Super Saiyan Blues would be more than enough to hold off long enough for his fusion time to run out, Fused Zamasu's immortality being key.[2][3]
Toriyama drew part of ""Future" Trunks' Past".[11]
Universe Survival Saga
Toriyama designed the Tournament of Power arena and the characters Jiren, Top, Dyspo, Ribrianne, Sidra, Quitela, and Korn.[12][13][7]
Toriyama jointly designed Belmod and Heles with Toyotarou.[7]
After Toei created Kale, Toriyama created Caulifla to go along with her.[13]
Super Saiyan is achieved through concentrating energy in the back, causing a tingly feeling.[5]
The Tournament of Power was to be eighty people fighting in a jumble.[13]
Initially no overview for Jiren's personality was given, but his backstory of his parents and master being killed was added, along with his silent nature.[13]
Top is a God of Destruction candidate.[13]
The course of events for every Universe 7 warrior (e.g. Piccolo losing to Damon, and who survives until the end).[13]
The twist of Majin Buu being replaced by Frieza.[13]
The course of the battle between Universe 7 and Universe 11.[14]
Perfected Ultra Instinct as a new form for Goku, separate from the Super Saiyan forms.[13]
Toriyama drew part of "The Man Named Jiren".[15]
Toriyama drew part of "The Super Warriors Gather!, Part 2".[15][16]
Toriyama drew part of "Quirky Competitors".[17]
Beerus calling Ribrianne cute.[18]
Rozie and Kakunsa having the ability to stretch their arms.[18]
Toriyama drew part of "Jiren vs. Universe 7".[19]
Broly
Toriyama wrote the full version of the script.[20] He added much to the character of Broly, notably a sense of innocence.[20]
Designs for Cheelai, Lemo and all of Broly's appearances aside from his green-haired Legendary Super Saiyan state.[21]
Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga
Produced jointly with Toyotarou.[22] Some story elements were entirely created by Toriyama.[23]
Toriyama drew part of "To Each Their Own Plans".[24]
Toriyama drew part of "Son Goku, Galactic Patrol Officer".[25]
Granolah the Survivor Saga
Toriyama wrote the draft for this arc.[26] Including elements such as the new information on the Namekians' origins, the introduction of a new set of Dragon Balls, as well as Zuno's role in the story.[27]
Toriyama and Toyotarou decided that Vegeta's development would go down a different path from Goku's.[27]
Toriyama designed Monaito, originally naming him Slug before changing his name to avoid confusion.[28]
Toriyama designed the Sugarians.[28]
The Heeters were created by Toriyama.[27] Toriyama helped Toyotarou with his designs for Granolah and the Heeters,[28] putting emphasis on getting the Heeters' designs right.[27]
Super Hero
Toriyama provides the original concept, wrote the script (including every detail of the dialogue), and drew character designs for the film (changing pre-existing characters to their manga designs rather than those used in the anime). It has been said that he is even more invested in this film than the prior three he wrote.[29]
@GOLD King the kid you ok dude??
What matters is his statement, saying, GT is a side-story and everyone shall enjoy it as they please.
Side-story to what I would ask ?
To the actual "canon" of Dragon Ball Super.
And it means, both are "side-stories" on their own, they are, both, not canon, because they both aren't part of the original run of Dragon Ball.
Akira Toriyama supervise Toyble's work.
It's uncanon, and will always be to my eyes.
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 makes sense
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 Doesn't change the fact that Dragon Ball GT's ending is canon to Dragon Ball itself as that's the intended ending for the series(Outside of the Shadow Dragon Saga, of course).
@@IfritBoi According to whom?
For me core canon will always be the first thing that came out and got finished by the same author,everything else is part of a multiverse.
In the case of Dragon Ball the first edition of the manga (AKA the one that was published in Weekly Shonen Jump and/or the first Tankobon) is the thing i see as the core canon,everything else is its own thing.
Yep, finally someone says it! I feel like Db and DBZ are Canon because only the creator worked 100% in it. Dragonball Super is canon too because everything got scripted with Toriyama together.
But, the Hero series is just a Fan Service, what i know is, that Toriyama is not writing nor reading the Story.
@@zdc8914 If that's the case, though, it feels like we may as well call GT Canon since Akira Toriyama has roughly about the same involvement in it as he does Super. The involvement process is pretty similar in the fact that he just puts a concept out there and the writers work with said concept.
This is how I look at things...
The original Manga, the Dragon Ball and Z parts are Canon to themselves, but not to the Anime, but both Dragon Ball and Z Anime's are Canon to each other.
Everything takes place in their own self contained timelines. The Manga is the prime timeline, then you have the original Anime, then branching off of that is the Super Manga and Anime, with each movie taking place in their self contained timelines, I would even have GT branching off the original Anime too.
But that's just me.
No your right anime and manga are their own canons
Great way of putting it. Totally agree!
@@schemar17 what are the biggest differences
@@YangyChaddyDad dragon ball and z anime have fillers and GT is connected to them
While the super isn't connected to the db manga because it has brought back filler characters and contradict the timeline
So super split off from the timeline right after the buu saga
100% agree
Whenever I see someone saying that Super is "canon", my first question to them is... "Which one? WHICH Dragon Ball Super?"
The TV anime?
The manga?
The movies?
Seriously, there are THREE DIFFERENT official versions of the God and God ("Battle of Gods") arc alone... which one is "canon"? It CAN'T be all three. I mean, let's be real... the fact that the VERY FIRST ARC in Dragon Ball Super started out with THREE differing incarnations, and it wasn't even the case that one was an adaptation of another like it was with the original manga and anime of DB/Z... that's NOT a good sign for the simplicity and consumability of your brand. But no, that weird divide just continued and the manga, anime, and movies have continuously intersected and come apart in various unexplained and confusing ways since 2015 and hence Dragon Ball Super has become this insanely confusing mess of a series that has managed to completely turn me off of a franchise that I used to adore. I still love the original run of the series, but 98% of what's come out of the Dragon Ball franchise since 1997 has been a severe disappointment to me at the very least.
But, no... I've legitimately had idiots respond to me that they're ALL "canon" because they're all based on Toriyama's story outline notes, and they flat out say that anything that had Toriyama's direct involvement is therefore automatically "canon" by default. Problem with that is, these same fools don't consider the movies, GT, or the anime filler in DB & Z to be "canon", despite the fact that there was a significant amount of character designs and plot ideas that he directly contributed to all of those. Are they "canon" because of that? (Answer: NO.)
There are so many different TV series, movies, specials, OVAs, spinoff manga, original stories in video games, etc., etc., etc., in the Dragon Ball media franchise and almost all of them clash with one another in a variety of different ways. If you try to parse out what's "canon" and what isn't out of that humongous mess, you will never arrive at a satisfactory answer and you will have vastly different answers all varying from person to person, and it doesn't help that NO ONE from among Toriyama or anyone at Shueisha, Toei, etc., have ever said anything official on the matter of "canon".
That's why I just disregard the question of "canon" entirely. I look at the matter in the most simple and accurate and true way as can possibly be by viewing it like this: The Dragon Ball manga, written and illustrated by Toriyama Akira and serialized in Weekly Shōnen Jump magazine for 519 chapters from November 20th, 1984 to May 23rd, 1995 (some sources will instead say December 3rd, 1984 and June 5th, 1995 respectively, but those are the publication dates printed in the Jump issues, whereas the aforementioned dates are the dates that the issues actually physically went on sale. You see the same exact thing with American comic books and magazines and have for decades upon decades) is the original work that began the Dragon Ball franchise, and everything else in said franchise is some form of adaptation, sequel, spinoff, remake, some combination thereof, etc., that all stem directly from that original, primary source material. Any viewpoint other than that inevitably involves fanon headcanon and I for one am sick and tired of putting up with that headache-inducing argument after 25 years of being in the Dragon Ball fandom.
I talked about Dragon Ball until the sun went down.
Kind of like Goku vs Jackie Chun at the 21st Tournament…
Dragon Ball super is officially written by toriyama, it's canon, it's follows the same storyline but sdbh is noncanon, it's follows a different storyline but officially of dragon ball universe. A franchise doesn't only have one storyline and only one writer, it has many and that doesn't mean it's not officially part of db universe, For u people 🤦🤦🤦🤦 there is only one writer, which is wrong
Ok...which one. The movies? The manga? The anime? Theres 3 canons now. The manga and anime follow different events. Which is canon goku going kaioken vs hit or goku going ssg vs hit?
And its not written by toryiama that is 100% false.
@@modernwarrior24 if ur saying dragon Ball super is not written by toriyama u know nothing about it,
@@modernwarrior24 u literally Don't know anything about it, sdbh and xenoverse Manga is different story, it has its official original manga officially written by toyotarou and other official writers and part of dragon ball universe, A fictional universe doesn't only have one storyline and only one writer, Dragon ball universe also has different storylines and writers but officially of their respective universes
Bro in db universe noncanon means a different storyline but officially a part of db universe, but if u say noncanon in western comics it's means unofficial or fan-made, that's why many websites writes wrong and around 70% people got mislead about sdbh which is officially canon in terms of officially part of db universe
I just find it funny how someone who doesn't work in the db franchise decides to make a video and say oh Db super isn't canon when the creators themselves informs us that it's canon. Lmaoo I done seen it all.
When did the creators say that 🧐
@@adaurysantos the manga of dbs is literally written by the creator himself it’s definitely canon.
@@michealbanksjr.3630 No it's not, it's written by Toyotaro. Toriyama merely creates the overall plot and most of the character designs.
@@adaurysantos Toriyama literally writes the super manga. What are you talking about?
@@michealbanksjr.3630 Alright I'm about to make you look real stupid. If Toriyama writes the story, what does Toyotaro do?
Even though it's said that everything is canon in its own continuity, I have my own headcanons on how canon something is.
the only true canon is the og manga.
Yup
What ever the writer himself invest into fully is canon to me …. F super and F GT with a passion!
And DB online's story too, it follows the og manga continuity, and now Daima
A bit dark, but in regards to the absolute highest level of canon "prime timeline" possible for the series, the characters we all come to know and love are all dead aside from a select few. In that original timeline that wasn't at all tampered with by time travel, the original Future Trunks returned from the past having grown stronger from defeating the Androids with the other Z-Fighters of the past timeline he had traveled to, and finally with his own now increased power was able to destroy the Androids in his own time only to end up getting killed by Cell after, who then stole his time machine.
We don't know what happened to that original world after this point. The Z-Fighters are pretty much all dead, very few characters we would be familiar with are still alive, but humanity is still around on Earth albeit in smaller numbers due to the Androids. There could still be some kind of room to tell some kind of story there, but it would no longer generally be about the same characters anymore. Effectively, the original, unmodified timeline is one in which everything leading up to that point in the story has ended.
This means that a large chunk of the stuff that people consider to be canon is actually in fact parallel universe content. Everything up until the end of the Namek Saga is safe, but from then on things get much more complicated. The Buu Saga in particular is the first full saga to take place entirely within a timeline that is not the original one, and even the Android/Cell Saga barely even mentions it with Cell being the only character in the story being from the original prime timeline who appears in person. As such, the prime timeline's direct storytelling actually ends with the ending of the Namek Saga, and it's relevance ends with the defeat of Cell.
From that perspective, not only is Super technically non-canon in the sense that it does not happen within the prime timeline, but it's a continuation of events that already weren't part of the prime timeline.
❤
Also Super sucks and just does not Feel like Dragonball/Z
widow from z talking crap as usual
As much as I HATE super BOTH supers are canon. Manga AND anime. And you know what? GT is also canon. They’re just rotate canons. Like how each bond actor is a different canon for bond. Gt is canon to DBZ anime,super anime is canon to Kai,supers manga is toriyama manga canon. Everyone has something to enjoy :)
Man you lost a lot of weight since this video good shit. Anyways these videos are really getting me through some hard times and some crippling anxiety I'm having. Just want you to know you're making a big difference in my life. Thank you for what you do
Before I say anything else, good video as usual. Now, that title annoys me. It's not up to you it's up to the creators, even if you personally don't agree with it and trust me, I've been there. I was expecting definitive proof, as I do with all things in life. While your information is intriguing, it's still Canon. If your title said "why I think dragon Ball super is not canon", I would not even be writing this message.
I think a lot of us can agree that dragon balls creators are not the best writers but for some reason we keep watching because we love the characters.
@@PotentSenzu yea this is why I don't like the Dragon ball community their always infighting and being toxic to the point we're im ashamed to be apart of this fanbase.
even that doesn't work since "canon" isnt subjective. If this guy just wanted to say his piece he shouldve ditched the canon angle entirely but eh, youtube money
@@PotentSenzu Yeah being toxic by being logical. I also said it was a good video and I also said I agree with the points and more words or less. Trying to make someone out to be something they're not just makes you look bad.
That phrasing. You know what toxic is? Gaslighting.
Let's do an example, you get a letter from a doctor for the sake of his argument, that says you have cancer. You set an appointment you go in, and the doctor says "Let me tell you why I think you have cancer." You can agree to that, but it's not an official, objective, truth until the lab that does the testing comes back and says that you do. But the phrasing of the letter you got was stating that you definitively had cancer. That is the issue.
@@PotentSenzu you responding to the original poster that had a complaint about the video how the fuck is that being a blind supporter?
Aside from that, I incorrectly read your comment, and that it's a mistake I can own.
If you read the responses phrase towards you, because I thought you were calling me toxic, my mistake.
@@PotentSenzu yea a lot of anime communities are toxic but dragon ball is at top of the toxic communities
I discussed this with a buddy a couple of years ago, since we discussed the end of Z and how Super maybe actually have an open ending, since it lies in another timeline or whatever. so, thinking that, Super can still surprise us and doesnt really need to have the end of Z in it at all and, can do whatever they want with it.
They should just say it's a different timeline.end of story why people want them to line it up with Z so bad...for example it can be the timeline where Z didn't happen after the buj saga
It could be end of z and then gt then dragon ball online
7:36 Toriyama is NOT George Lucas, what the hell? You're downplaying how much an outline affects a story.
Once he said that I was like -_-
Dbs is trash
@@申月営無営月無営有申 you said that already
@@edwardjones1482 imma say it again
@@edwardjones1482 dbs is trash
technically the canon timeline is future trunks and it was destroyed. everything else is an alternate timeline and debatably stopped being canon at the moment he arrived in the past
To clarify, the movies 1 through 6 are officially Lucas Canon since he made them, especially the prequels since he made them exclusively on his own (which is sighted often to be problem with the prequels and how nobody objected to his ideas). There is no arguing their canonisity.
Yeah i found it weird that he used this as an example, as even though i have heard of and seen people who dont like them, everyone in the fanbase does seem to consider the prequels 100% canon, despite any retcons or contradictions
@@SauronIH well see that's the thing, they are 100% canon and by technicality don't actually recon anything in the Original Trilogy.
They only truly retcon stuff introduced in the novels, games, comics, cartoons but till that point, which is fine because if you actually look it up, Lucas had never said His Canon and the Novels were the same Canon, he has always maintained that they are a separate Canon from his own.
I didn’t directly say the prequels were non-canon in the video, just that there’s an argument they don’t belong to the same level of canonicity as the original trilogy. As there are a number of factors working against it. Like the time in between, Lucas’ original intent behind things like the Clone Wars, rise of the Empire and transformation of Anakin to Vader. As others have pointed out, there are some inconsistencies between both trilogies as well.
If you want to count them as the Lucas 6 or “real Star Wars movies” then go ahead. But the argument that they’re not on the same level of canon even with Lucas’ increased involvement is still there. And it only becomes even more complicated when you include his original intended version of Star Wars be it in the script stages or prior to Marcia Lucas re-editing episode 4.
You must be glad that dislikes were removed huh....
I think this is why he ended his channel lmao
While gt was bad…
It didn’t butcher Gokus character and ruin it. It wasn’t full of bullshit power creep. It wasn’t poorly written with lazy transformations and constantly pulling shit out of its ass.
It was creative. Maybe it wasn’t the best but I prefer it over the shit show we currently have
The way I see it pretty much all official DB material is "canon", each separate story/series just takes place in it's own timeline. I believe this mainly because we know from Xenoverse and Heroes that there are infinite timelines in the Dragon Ball verse.
facts
Plus Toriyama actually wrote Online and Xenoverse 2.
@@Shahaneh actually toyotarou wrote xenoverse manga, I know that's also officially of dragon ball universe but just different storyline
Sdbh Manga was officially written by official writer toyotarou and got released in 2012, it's a different storylines but officially a part of db universe, Dragon ball also has many other official writers other than akira toriyama, like toyotarou and other they are literally official writers of dragon ball.
Yes the anime was made for the promotion of the game but the manga was officially released in 2012, that's officially of dragon ball universe not just for the game
@@Shahaneh Bro in db universe noncanon means a different storyline but officially a part of db universe, but if u say noncanon in western comics it's means unofficial or fan-made, that's why many websites writes wrong and around 70% people got mislead about sdbh which is officially canon in terms of officially part of db universe
People...if you ask me, you should just consider whatever you like as canon, and damn be what others will say.
While the video made some good points at the beggining, at the end it all boiled down to " i dont agree with the author" which is completely ridiculous and definitely not objective( the video actually deforms at the end into an angry critique of the product). Toyotaro says in the first volume " all that has to do with the story comes from Toriyama sensei, i come up with ideas every now and then". And considering that the general outline of the story of the anime is largely the same as the manga, Toriyamas involvement is definitely not small.
Yeah that canon debate stuff doesn't really matter. If you like something you like it and enjoy watching it if however you don't then you don't that's all that matters
Nothing comes close to beating the original run regardless
Yep, it's all fiction anyway. Debating canon and non canon is pointless.
@@crystalwater505 always has been pretty lame people act like man childs just cause they don’t like super it’s weird to me super definitely isn’t amazing but it generally had some great moments, so take it or leave it simple.
Ever since future trunks was introduced I realized that dragon ball exist on a multiverse type of plane I brush off the non Canon as a completely different multiverse and just enjoy the anime as it happens lol. Super only solidified my multiverse theory even more. I came up with it when dbgt came out. Even gokus personality is different in all series I know this is just my own justification and is only backed by my on rationalization and the only way I can just say it's all Canon which it should be since it's all official dragon ball content and not like fan art
I guess anything Akira made for DB is non canon now
@Gamer Ben yea if you look to deep nothing makes sense it would all be non Canon lol
@@SFUFATALFOX So the main canon by the creator of DB is no longer canon because you said so
@@benpage11 well I'm saying everything he made is Canon even though it doesn't make sense
@@benpage11 Yes. I really don't care the same man who confused ssj2 for ssj3 and vice versa has to say anymore
This statement is true despite what people say or how they feel about the show. You don't need to fully support or not criticize something if you like it. Everything you said was very true and I have recently come around to not going with "word of God" statements. Even if Toriyama literally wrote the whole thing it's like if it doesn't line up it doesn't line up and souch time has passed he is not going to be in the same mindset as when he made the original
Toriyama: Thus saith the Lord, "Buu was created not by Bibidi, but from time immemorial did he live. Amen"
Then by that logic Dragon Ball super manga, isn’t cannon because Toriyama isn’t writing it right?
@@lost.name636brother9he is, but once toyotaro becomes the owner of db he will be the writer, watch everyone say dbs is non canon bc the owner of db didnt write db
Facts
Just because dbs has diffrent writers, it doesn't mean that it is or isn't canon. Shows on tv has diffrent writers for each of it's episodes too - that doesn't mean that they are all diffrent continuities. Each of the episodes and seasons are made to tell a bigger story. One big continuity.
If Toriama starts writing his own db manga again, and he picks up the story from where his own db manga ended, with Goku flying of with Uub, and he includes ultra instict, Beerus, and everything else from dbs, in his own manga, thats when we will know if he sees dbs as true or at least close to true canon,.. or if Toriama just straight out says that it is or isn't.
Everything is canon until it's not, thats what im trying to say. And just because you don't like how something is written, doesn't mean that it isn't canon, even something like gt.
But Super is being written by Toriyama right now so it's canon unless he says otherwise.
@@cheeseburgerfreddy6350 its co-written. And people use that as a reason for it to not being canon to dragon ball. Some people think that Toriyama has little to no involvement in the making of super, just like gt
@@GiveMeVigor Yet he's writing the current arc Lols
@@GiveMeVigor that’s exactly what laughing stock thinks
@@edwardjones1482 thats not exactly what i took from the video. Didnt he say that it is secondary canon or something. So not part of the main continuity that is dragon Ball. A spin off that is its own continuity, so not canon. Even the title of the vid is why dbs isn't canon, and im trying to say that it is
I tried explaining to someone that toriyama didn’t have much to do with it and is not canon on instagram and everyone went off on me telling me that I have no idea what I’m talking about and he worked very closely with everyone. They are just saying that he worked super closely on everything to keep the purists interested. These people need to just admit that they don’t care about the story and like super for what it is. They told him that they were going to continue the story that he ended with or without him and that’s that. Super can’t make a single good villain except beerus and they made him a good guy. Loved the battle of gods movie but it will never feel canon
Toriyama also outlined the plot for dbs, not the story. This still makes its more canon than gt, which means, out of all dbz sequels, it is the most plausible canon.
Also, a lot of people seem to forget that battle of gods was made in response to dragon ball evolution. Toriyama hated it so much that he decided to continue the story from dbz.
Battle of gods is canon 100% as, based on your comment, it is the author giving it 100% of his effort. It may not necessarily be in manga originally, but toriyama being so pissed about an american dbz that he wanted battle of gods made is 100% author effort.
In terms of prequals, the original author has nothing to do with canon. Berserk, Naruto-Boruto, HunterXHunter and so fourth all have different story writters. Canon is whats official and works in the story. Lots of anime have multiple writters and not just anime. For elder scrolls there is a writter who left bethesda yet the story he writes is still canon despite being entirely new writters being paid to make the stories. I agree Super isnt canon but not because of Akira, it doesnt fit in the story.
Akira works directly on super. Therefore it’s canon
@@benpage11 Just because someone draws some art or pitch some ideas doesn't make it canon, or else GT is canon by that reasoning.
@@YoMamaBih except Akira didn’t make GT. He made super. So yes super is canon
@@benpage11 He didn't make Super tho, he is involved, but it's not HIS project, that's why so many anime only elements are part of it
@@colmeiadaangela1026 except he did. Why you think he writes the drafts of what happens in both arcs and gives them to both the tv and manga team? Because he’s in control
Remember when jiren was the cloaked apprentice in the episode preview but they then switched it all of a sudden before the launch of the coming episode *that's because after the frieza revival arc they were just coming up with random target board scenarios and seeing whatever made sense to them. It wasn't a fully realized story being told/shown to us , all concepts were all being done on the fly* they did us dirty.
Can you reiterate this comment so I can understand better?? You're saying they just threw shit at the wall and aired whatever stuck?
@@_mango_ yes, they literally changed plot information at the last moment before airing. It was if they weren't satisfied even though they went it over with the other directors and producers
@@lapplandkun9273 can i get some potential sources on this? This is fascinating and infuriating
I mean the Dragon Ball manga was the same it's the reason we got 17, 18 and Cell plus all his forms. We have to take into consideration that at the end of the day all these stories are someone's first experience we have to accept that.
@@thequestion174 yeah but Akira had a good sense of theming. Instead of going from serious to nonsensical, it stayed consistent and changed slowly. Android 17, 18, 19, Gero and Cell were all treated as big foes with a serious and mature tone. The arcs prior were also very serous. You didn't go from a silly adventure style saga to a suddenly serious saga like GT and Super. It grew slightly darker each arc. Plot holes aside, with a little suspension of disbelief you get a thematically and meticulously crafted story.
It's your opinion dude, but Akira Toriyama would have the say that Dragon Ball Super is apart of the Prime Cannon timeline. Also, Toriyama probably would love to fill that time Gap for the longest time. But it's never easy to explain it.
I'm planning on doing a video, saying why the "so-called" end of z isn't canon, first of all we have to use z manga and pair it to yo son goku and his friends return special, which is canon seeing it took place after few years of the buu arc, then that led to a month later after the special battle of gods, then a year later for revival of freiza
@@maymay5600 Yeah more like it was going to be expanded upon at some point, and Akira Toriyama is still involved by emails and Manuscripts, people refuse to see that Toriyama would like to fill the time Gap from the end of the Buu saga to the time of the 28th martial arts tournament. And people just refuse to see that. As anyways Dragon Ball Super will cover that event and then expand on it as well as go past that original ending starting to go into the time of which if GT was written by Toriyama then that's what you'd see. I'm also sure that if they'll reuse some characters from that show and rework them at some point.
The point is there is a manga and anime with different events that take place. Thats the issue.
Also remember toriyama doesnt even write the super manga. All he does is literally send bullet points in emails and corrects a few things. Toyotoro and toei are the ones who do the rest.
@@modernwarrior24 In the case of this current arc the Super manga is in, Toriyama is writing it for the most part but Toyotaro is writing the dialogue for the first few pages with input from Toriyama himself. Technically, Toriyama wants to leave the series with someone he can trust as when he passes in the future, Dragonball can keep thriving.
dragonball fans foolishly trying to make dragonball like starwars in terms of canon will never not be funny.
So i guess the only canon things are what isn't different between the anime and manga
Finally I hear a Dragon Ball channel owner that says he doesn't like DBS. I am with you Mike I didn't like DBS either while I absolutely love GT and I don't give a damn if it's not canon as in my opinion only it's a more relatable story. Hack the movies are not canon while some of them fit perfectly into the normal timeline, besides the fact that for a plot service Kakarrot seems to forget he is a SSJ. Also let's not forget about DBS that so many love about dear Kakarrot who caused the tournament of power just for the pleasure of fighting, while putting his family, friends and other universes in danger. That doesn't mean he is a bad guy but certainly not much thinking there.
DBS is not canon because is his own continuity of the story, just like the TMNT comics are a separated continuity to the cartoons and movies.
The only real canon is the DB manga.
what? it takes place between the 10 year timeskip at dbz bruh and its made by toriyama of course its canon
@@krixiangd The bizarre amount of contradictions and plotholes it has makes it non-canon.
@@krixiangd We are at the end of it.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 like db and dbz?
@@Eric6761 Explain.
considering that toriyama himself has admitted to not only forgetting, but not even bothering to go back and check his previous works to keep it consistent, the issue of "canon" in dragon ball is a fruitless one. if toriyama himself doesn't care, then it would be pointless for me to...so basically everything is canon- even if it contradicts
The creator disagrees with this entire video. Don’t even need to watch it
The creators (toriyama and toei) never used words "canon" or "not canon". They said "Dbs is the official story". But US translators decided that it meant "canon" for some reason. DBGT by the way also "the official story".
@@Cure4Brains “they never used the words canon” they literally have a DB bible showing what’s canon what are you even talking about
@@Cure4Brains your also forgetting that they called the new Broly film “a canon version of broly’s story in the current canon”
@@Cure4Brains thats because NOBODY uses the words "canon," not even Toriyama. The word might as well be meaningless if you gonna get that pedantic about it
@@benpage11 American translators most likely called it a canon, but not the Japanese. They do not divide db into canon and non-canon.
People also ignore that the first episode of Super is literally filler.
What if it’s figuratively filler
That's incorrect the creators even said it was canon
If you actually look Into Super ina deeper level, you really shouldn’t even be thinking it’s canon. Better to see it as a side thing rather than canon.
It’s cannon and it’s shit
Not really. Toriyama and toei never used words "canon" or "not canon". They said "Dbs is the official story". But US translators decided that it meant "canon" for some reason. DBGT by the way is "the official story" too.
@@Cure4Brains thats because NOBODY uses the words "canon," not even Toriyama. The word might as well be meaningless if you gonna get that pedantic about it
Ok but whats canon? The beerus saga had 3 freaking different iterarions. The movie the anime then the manga. The goku vs hit fight has hin going ssb kaioken in the anime but in the manga has goku going ssg??? Which is canon. None of this would of been messy if the anime simply followed the manga.
Well anything from Toriyama himself is Canon. So yes super is Canon but if your opinion it's not Canon then that's your opinion and I will respect that but disagree with you. You got my like though.
It's not his opinion, he is providing a logical explanation as to why it isn't canon.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 There is no logical explanation. Toriyama owns the show. What he says goes. It's canon. and LSM is a 🤡 for being so salty he'd say toriyama is wrong about it being canon LOL
End of story.
@@DragonClapTV You sound like a religious extremist, limão.
$uper's plot holes are enough to make it non-canon.
*dragon ball super retcons goku having always been an adult created by the gods and sent to earth to protect it*
DBS fans: "Guess the first 6 arcs of dragon ball are non-canon now."
😂😂
When the hell did that retcon even come from??
My fundamental issue with Dragon Ball Super is that is does contradict the ending of Z.
If Goku and Vegeta are able to evolve into Ultra Instinct and Super Ego respectively, then why would Goku feel the need to train Uub at the end of the series to be the protector of Earth? Goku doesn't seem like the type of character to pass the buck onto someone else. He wants to get stronger. So does Vegeta. Vegeta even said during the Brolly movie that he is going to keep training to be on guard in case Freiza tried anything. So we're meant to believe both these guys at some point in the future of this timeline will go "Here you go kid, its up to you to defend the Earth against God level threats." I don't care how much God Ki Uub has inside him, no chance he will stand a chance against any future threat. Not like Goku and Vegeta are going on vacation.
To put another way, I see Super as a "What if they went in this direction after the Buu arc."
I see Dragon Ball GT as "What if this happened after the ending of Z."
Like Mike said, its there own thing. Dragon Ball ended with the Buu arc. Everything else? No more than What If stories.
I like this take on things.
If Saiyans can only stay in their prime for a finite amount of years and assuming the end of Z has Vegeta and Goku reaching nearly 50 years of age or being a lil past that, you would only have x amount of decades left before they start rapidly aging and not being able to have the amount of powers they had in their physical prime. Goku himself knew that he's not gonna be around forever and preparing the next generation is the best thing for him. Uub has the potential to essentially use Ultra instinct if taught by Goku. And from what I know from what Geekdom explains, Toriyama is involved no matter what, through emails and manuscripts. Dragon Ball Super is meant to explain everything that's gone on between the end of Buu saga to the tournament at the end of Z. I do disagree with Mike and you. But I'd like both of you to read between the lines. Super exists to fill the time Gap of the last Saga of the original run and the ending of that manga, a creator still can be very involved in their own way but they don't have to be the one drawing each panel.
Um no... This is just blatant downplay of uub and by this logic the end of z makes no sense so is it even Canon? If it doesn't fit Goku's character than end of z isn't Canon I guess. What if Goku did this after the end of dragon ball is basically DBZ in a nutshell. This argument doesn't downplay the continuity of dbs. Buu arc is basically what if this happened after the cell saga. Like really? This idea has no real value.
@@maritimesteak8540 I disagree to an extent, you can say portions of the end of Z with the tournament wouldn't make sense anymore as with Toriyama and Toyotaro further continuing the story, as Toriyama writes a manuscript or story while also communicating via email... It essentially expands what Toriyama intended for the end of the original manga. Z wasn't a what if, they put Z as a way in the anime to explain that this is Goku's adventures and battles in his adult life. That's why they didn't call that portion DragonBall. And then the future trunks stuff in Super like the blue hair for future trunks was to differentiate between the kid Trunks in Super and Future Trunks.
Super is literally setting up for the z ending goku hadn’t met nor fought uub yet.
I really don't like Super as a whole, the manga seems okay but the anime is just a cash grab.
Nah both are great
Both suck
@@schemar17 says the gt fan
@@lxfj2128 gt is a lot better than super. Fact.
The anime’s writing is piss poor but the manga is genuinely better in many areas.
I think too many people put stock behind the ending of Z. It's not like Toriyama hasn't retconned things before (DB Minus comes to mind). But basically, Super is the current storyline that Toriyama and Toyotaro are working and adding to. GT has, at this point, been relegated to a alternate timeline/universe.
So that really should be all the answer needed to this question.
There are a lot of other retcons and conflicts super introduces that don't even need to tie back to the end of Z or even Z at all to introduce problems. That being said it still makes more sense than Z does and it doesn't matter to me because none of Z, Super or GT is anywhere remotely close to as good as OG Dragonball to begin with
The way this media franchise is implemented & designed like power scaling and who can beat who for example in this day and age due to the size of the product is to make it universal for years to come for future readers & viewers so they look back into the old scripts (manga) which ends up maintaing a fandom (community), leading to speculative fans eating every crumb & wanting more like toys and cards DBS & DBH, even though the canon, the mainline script is not 110% accurate, it's a smart business idea really.
Ngl chief, this argument sounded like a whole lot of nothing
it’s head-non-canon
He just hates that he’s the only one that likes gt so he tries to put super down
Both DBGT and DBS are kinda bad, and neither one deserves to be considered canon. To me Dragon Ball ended with Z, and I don't accept anything that came after as anything but side stories.
There's no need for him to try and put Super down. It's already the lowest Dragon Ball has ever been.
I see this way:
Canon: Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z
Alternative Timeline: Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z + Dbz movies + GT
Alternative Timeline 2: Dragon Ball + Dragon Ball Z + Dragon Ball Minus + Dragon Ball Super
I'm fine with Super and gt both being canon. Viewer's choice.
I still count gt
This aged like the finnest wine
the way i see it mike, everything is cannon, even heros anime, games etc.
just a different timeline/universe.
like i see where you are coming from sayin it is it's own continuity, kinda dug a hole with super and the end of z, now it really is starting to feel kinda like a GT. but we will just have to see what happens as the current super arc is deathly close to the end of Z
Cooler was in GT, GT will never be canon deal with it.
I'll be honest: I agree that contradictions makes "canon" vague. However, I disagree with you in terms of what Toriyama considers canon. As far as anyone is concerned, what you mentioned in this video can be said about a thousand things, and yet, in the end, the one who has the last word is Toriyama, and if he has contradictions or nit in his story, many can make their own opinions, but ultimately, if he decides it's canon, unless it ruins or contradicts his work in a big way, it's canon. Period. If there are contradictions or not isn't what makes Toriyama's work canon, he does, and if we can give those contradictions an explanation, neat, but it won't change canon.
it shouldn't need to be explained that what the mangaka says goes.... he is law.
@@selfishbeats
Then why are fans so fixed on canon. Toriyama and Toei don’t use such a term.
LITERALLY. Laughingstock media proved himself to be unreliable with this, and it's something i remembeer when i hear him trying to upgrade confirmed gohan feats, like saying adult gohan who fought dabura would beat super perfect cell when he nearly one shotted ssj2 TEEN gohan. He hits adult gohan one time and gohan is gone.
Akira: Goku was always a homosexual
Fanboys/Simps: Protect this information at all cost, it's cannon and true to DB!
"Vegeta is cheating on Bulma, preserve this information at all costs !"
“It’s not canon because it doesn’t fit in my head canon!”
Bulma aging and having not seen Gokuh in 5 years at the end of the original manga is headcanon?
@@leonardoalvarenga7572 and in dbs super heroes movie bulma wish to shenron for stop my aging and maintain my younger version and in the end of the Z bulma is too much old and Super events is Contradict the end of Z like just a Joke and nothing happens like Z???
@@sagargupta9446 Super isn't canon...
@@ZERARCHIVE2023 ya i am also think everyday super is actually non canon and may be Dbs is The Alternate timeline of dbz Multiverse like future trunks timeline and DBGT timeline
If you're saying that dragon ball super is not canon.
Then what is canon to you?
The main story (I.e. the original Dragon Ball Manga)
Z,DB. GT is debatable and Super doesn’t fit in the established timeline. it’s retconned way too much and changed things like pans and bullas birth
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 gt not canon the story was made by toei while for super akira does drafts for the story, gt is consistent to the anime of z but contradicts db manga, super does contradict but let’s be real akira and toyotaro are people who mainly write the story as it moves they don’t look back into everything from 30 years ago so they eventually gonna contradict the story for the plot or cause they forgot
@@PotentSenzu Watch the entire video.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 they obviously didn’t, the cut not even halfway because they got emotional since that’s what fanboys do. He clearly states what’s canon and not at least to him.
Evreything after Z is extra content . It ended at Z for me and many others . Its all down hill from there in a soulless cashgrabbing fashion .
They make the saiyans look soft and weak/ we’ll Granola is interesting
@@NastalgicCLOWN80687 exactly. Did you see how the retconed Bardock?
All Dragon ball stories are canon because of Bulma, Gohan and Trunks future changes!
Super literally keeps retconning the entire series multiple times so I'd say it isn't canon. It's pretty lazy to keep retconning dbz. Like if you care about your story then you'll stick with it
It's not even just retcons, they are literal and straight up plot holes.
@leonardoalvarenga7572 yes it is the retcons. The story of super could be terrible and not retcon the crap out of everything. At least leave what came before alone. But nope they have to ruin all of that too.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572you're delusional if you think all retcons are automatically bad.
@@sydneyowusu3750 Learn to read.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572who TF is talkin to you.
Dragon Ball Super is canon to itself. AKA I'm fine to mentally quarantine to its own continuity
That's what I do, too. With all of its retcons, it doesn't fit into the original DB and Z canon at all.
If I was Akira Toriyama I would've done my dude diligence and re read my previous works so that I could craft a better narrative.
The creators say its canon. So how isnt it
These peasants have no say so on what's canon and non canon. There just dbs haters.
It's canon to the DBZ movies.
I stopped watching super... I prefer db and dbz hands down
Ok?
GT>Super
besides ssj4 goku vegeta and gogeta it’s trash lol
@@sejhehsidbdsbs6682 idk baby is a pretty good villain. rilldo is cool so is omega shenron.
GT is the GOAT 🐐
Just because it's cannon doesn't mean it's good. I still prefer GT to Super and people will say oh GT's not cannon
Finally someone calls it out. Even if Toriyama says it's canon, unless it fits in with the rest of the story, it being canon has no meaning.
Toriyama won't say anything is canon because Toei doesn't use the word. In DB the only thing that is canon is the manga, and everything else is derivitive of it. GT is based on the anime. The movies are original ideas, and Super is based on the post Buu saga movies, not written by Toriyama. His name is just used for marketing. Toyotaro mostly does his own thing with the manga, and Super does entirely their own thing with the anime. Toyotaro might just briefly keep Toriyama up with his ideas and thats it. People really think DB is the same as comics, but its nott.
@@GeteMachine the DBS Timeline is based on Dragon Ball Minus
@@SuzukiCabs what is Dragon Ball Minus?
@@nicholasolivas317 it's toriyama's manga of bardock and goku's backstory. It's the one you saw in dbs broly.
@@SuzukiCabs It's not canon.
It's just a retcon. It alters the OG run.
Dragon Ball just should've ended after Cell. I think a lot of us can agree. That said, I like Super. I understand why others may not but, I like it.
I look at it this way: DB and Z are followed up by GT. DB and then Kai are followed up by Super. It's just a different timeline. That's the only way I can make sense of all the retcons that Super provided. Different timeline, different rules.
Kai isn’t even a different story though just less filler
Gt isn't Canon super and Kai are just adaptations of the same book the Manga is Canon it's that simple anime onlys don't understand that everything is just a side story or adaptation of the Manga
It's not hard to understand
@@dafade2254 As much as I HATE super BOTH supers are canon. Manga AND anime. And you know what? GT is also canon. They’re just rotate canons. Like how each bond actor is a different canon for bond. Gt is canon to DBZ anime,super anime is canon to Kai,supers manga is toriyama manga canon. Everyone has something to enjoy :)
Kai is seperate canon from z like how z is from the z portion of the manga.
Dragon Ball ISN'T OWNED by Akira Toriyama (for all you guys who didn't know) he JUST MADE IT, GT is technically MORE CANON than Super
Silly Billy, Dragon Ball Super is a show not a cannon.
I mean at the end of the day, he still wrote out the plotlines for Super and did character designs, if he literally didn’t do anymore stories for Dragonball, Super really wouldn’t be seen as canon.
I’m not saying you don’t have a point in regards to his memory on things but Toriyama had no reason to even do more Dragonball if he was truly done with it. It had been 18 Years and yes, it would make sense he’d want to come back after after almost 20 Years but the fact he continued to make more when he didn’t have to just can’t make me ignore Super as Canon.
As up and down this series has been with it getting higher by TOP, Broly, Moro and Grahnola and Super Hero with still some flaws but not as much as it used to be, I can’t really be as upset with it as I was after the end of the Future Trunks Arc.
"Why Dragon ball super isn't canon"
Toriyama & Toei Animation : am i a joke to you
The movies anime and manga say otherwise...
Yea they are like literally toei is pathetic and still holding one piece captive with its 1 chapter per episode pacing and toriyama just said its cannon to cash out🤷♂️ same with kishimoto. Look at harry potter just cause an author tacs on a bunch of bullshit 20 yrs aftwr the stories over because there senile doesn’t make it really cannon. Logic should overrule the authors word in very specific cases
They said it to get everyone's attention and $ bro
Super isn't canon because The original manga of Dragonball make it not possible. Just like how GT cannot be canon, because Cooler appears in 1 singular frame
Duuude don't ruin my anime nowwwww :P I recently watched Super after MANY years of not watching Dragon Ball/Z/GT. I'm 26 and used to watch DB when I was a kid. Cannot tell you how happy I was when i discovered super and the super related movies. Great Stuff! Great Animation and just good ole DBZ!
I really wish Beerus was allowed to fix the timelines to solve this paradox of lore for us. For good.
Your just wrong its okay if u don't like it but it is canon sorry not sorry
My man Mike plays guitar?! #respect
Dragonball Super kind of undermines the 10 year time gap episodes of Z. Who cares about the reincarnation of Buu when you introduce gods that can literally make universes disappear? Uub kind of loses importance.
Don't give up and never give in
let's be honest. canon or not doesn't matter. some of my favorite dragonball content is non canon.
Cooler for example. Really loved both his movies and technically Metal Cooler remained unbeaten. If Goku never overloaded the big Gete Star, no Shot Vegeta and Goku at their max back then would have beaten him. The movies and the music were phenomenal. Janemba was also a character I really liked. What do I care if they are canon? I already made "canon" memories with them :D
I agree, a lot of my favorite Dragon Ball things ever are considered "non cannon"
What annoys me though, is how Super fans crap on great DBZ stories just because they aren't "canon" they seem to only see the value in something that is recent, popular, and connected to Super.
@@coatguy2990 you can enjoy DBS as a standalone piece of art
This is why I’m subscribed to this channel, this guy takes my thoughts and conveys them into full sentences and puts them in a well put video. Great video mike, I know damn well the crayon eaters are not gonna like this one, but that’s okay the ones that like to be edgy and bitch about shit like this are the ones that know the least of what they’re talking about about.
cringe
Must’ve hit a nerve I see.
@@Nikketmzee not what that means
people care way too much about what's "officially" canon and what's not. Pick and choose what you want to believe is canon. If you don't like something, come up with your own headcanon, nobody is stopping you... just don't try and force your opinions on other people.
Facts at it's purest form.
Yup that's what I've always done tbh
True just don’t use headcanons in arugements whether it is or isn’t but again when it’s official you can’t argue with headcanons but agree
By the way, instead of seeing it from the perspective of canon, I would recommend you consider looking at it in the sense that all contradictions and retcons, as well as "true endings" and what-not as prototypes, because, by the end of the day, Toriyama still continues to make more DB content with Toyotaro as his illustrator, so, basically, you could argue that the essence of what made DB canon was lost, yet it won't really change the canon of current DB, since, as far as the manga's continuation and adaptation, the canon of Dragon Ball has always been part of what Toriyama is doing from moment to moment, so everything before is meaningless if he decides to move on from that, and that would make everything that transpired before just a stepping stone for what comes next, because it didn't end in the Frieza arc, it didn't end in the Cell arc, it didn't end in the Buu arc, and while it's true that DB used to have an "ending", it was only valid until Toriyama decided to continue DB with DBS, since, wether or not the "ending" is retconned or not, Toriyama is still working on it, and the story continues, so, really, opinions aside, the essence of DB will be decided by him, not by "prototypes" or "past contradictions and retcons" that hold no meaning in the current manga. In any case, Toriyama considers it canon, and so it is.
The real question is has Toriyama ever used the term “canon”. It’s fans interpreting what they think he would consider “canon”.
In fact, it’s only ever so called fans claiming xyz to be “canon”.
Sdbh Manga was officially written by official writer toyotarou and got released in 2012, it's a different storylines but officially a part of db universe, Dragon ball also has many other official writers other than akira toriyama, like toyotarou and other they are literally official writers of dragon ball.
Yes the anime was made for the promotion of the game but the manga was officially released in 2012, that's officially of dragon ball universe not just for the game
Super introduces so many new characters and lores into the dragon ball universe. These elements such as angle powers and godlike transformations regardless of their quality(or lack there of) are undeniably Canon. Dragon ball has never been logically sound in its worldbuilding and narratives, and in an unorthodox way this has become one of its trademark characteristics. What is thematically consistent is the continuous dissection and development of essential characters. Although some of these character developments are only present within their own self-contained arcs and can gradually become stagnant due to the writer's change of mind, they still serve as important bedrock and springboard for the new current character development to happen.
Character development? But most of the main cast regresses in character rather than develop. For example, in the Buu saga, Chi-Chi is fine with Goten fighting and training and she even trains him herself. Yet in Dragon Ball Super, she regresses back to how she was in the Saiyan saga and doesn't want Goten to train, she wants him to stay at home and study.
Exactly
Honestly dragon ball super is just a huge shit stain on the franchise’s legacy. Toriyama really should have just retired and instead had someone who actually knew what they were doing take over instead. Dragon ball super, especially episode 66 onwards is a travesty. The absolute worst writing in dragon ball history.
Is this the true definition of cap?
My opinion on the matter is that it all comes down to author’s intent, if Toriyama says it’s canon then it’s canon end of discussion. Saying that something isn’t canon even though it is a definitive continuation created by the original creator is just so negative in my opinion, sometimes it can be fun to over analyze the connectivity of things but when you start saying something matters less than another thing it starts getting toxic, I don’t like GT but I’m not going to tell someone that they’re invalid for preferring it to DBS, at the end of the day we’re all just people with opinions and preferences so I don’t like it when people say certain preferences matter less than others.
That wasn't ever the point of the video, watch it again.
Tip: don't think about it canon and non cannon is just different timelines. Thinking It like that makes it way less messy. All dbz media was all just different timelines
A franchise doesn't have only one writer and only one storyline, it has many and also is a part of their respective universes
Personally, it hasn’t been canon in a very long time not even Dragon Ball Z is canon if you think about it because at the end of Dragon Ball Z they had an episode for Uber, which is non-canon but then again and super direct and like that episode didn’t exist because later on when he’s searching for 17 before the tournament of power, if you actually watched dragon ball, super closely supreme court, not supreme Kai, but then they mentioned something about a kid which is Uber that was born with extra powers that he needs me
And technically as explained in this video everything that's official dragon ball made content is it's own continuity in the dragon ball verse. Meaning everything is canon. But the 1st broly movie isn't Canon to the z anime but it's own separate continuity. Just because something isn't made by the same writer doesn't make it not cannon. Does it make it difficult yes and in some cases requires retcons. But it is canon in one way or another whether we like it or not. It's Canon and it's the main continuation of z Kai.
if it's the continuation of kai then why is buu in super? Its obvious super's retcons makes it invalidate it's own existence to z and kai. I think he did a good job in the vid explaining cannon and using it as a ranking system. Where he sorts works of the dragon ball franchise at different levels of cannons, instead of labeling them as being either fully cannon or non cannon. And you are 100% right super is cannon because it was official and was made to be a interqual, or sequal?? if it was db kai, of the dragonball franchise, there is no changing that, but each of these retcons for z and kai super makes, makes it less cannon to the original base. This was the main point laughing stock media was trying to make in his vid. He doesn't cover the cannon level of movies really in the vid but they are obviously on the bottom tier of the cannon list, since they are in all sense non cannon to the original stories. And dragon ball super should be right below dbz and db, not on the same level but close. Since the only differences are retcons here and there.
@@coolergurp8921 fat buu or just majin buu in Japanese never died that’s why fat buu is in super same way fat buu was in the ending of z and z kai
@@michealbanksjr.3630 fat buu wasn't in z kai at all. Infact z kai ended at the cell saga when trunks killed imperfect cell in the future timeline. It's true z kai would be a proper start though for db super compared to regular dbz. And I don't want to use majin buu not being in kai to prove why kai can't be a continuation of super when you can chalk that up to it having happened off screen. But you never know. Super still has it's inconsistencies to even kai.
@@coolergurp8921 you are right and wrong. You’re right because z kai did end when future trunks killed cell, but you’re also wrong because the kai dub came back a few years later and finished the dubbing the buu saga. Fat buu or majin buu in general is in fact shown in kai.
@@coolergurp8921 they even show flashback scenes from kai In dbs