Also love how the slugs are easy to avoid, but the society of Finetime are so stupid they literally walk into them or don't notice them. Anyone else would survive pretty easily.
Great to have Agatha back on this one, she’s a wonderful guest :) On watching, my preference was also that the Sluggos are the native species, would add an undertone to the already existent colonialist aspects, but I appreciated the commentary here on how they don’t quite make sense and are almost a kind of breaking down of narrative logic.
please please Please say you're doing a video on Douglas is Cancelled, you probably will anyway but goddamn i am teeming with thoughts and I'd love to hear you lot's opinions on it 💓 (massive improvement on Inside Man, there is hope for Moffat yet 🙏😌😌)
I also don't know how well this _"litmus test"_ of white actors works in a season with no Black side characters outside of Carla, Cherry, and Jocelyn. The Devil's Chord has none, Boom has none, 73 Yards has none, Rogue has none, Empire of Death has none. Space Babies has one Black side character, Legend of Ruby Sunday has two.
I think that depends how charitably one is inclined. Roger Ap Gwilliam’s head of communications may not be a very big part, but he is a side character, and he is Black.
@@tommarshall4561 - yess, someone pointed out him and Harriet Arbinger to me. I think he's well a prominant enough character to count towards rep, he's got a fair few lines. I think the latter maybe feels less so, she only has one or two lines before the reveal if I remember correctly. And I have to assume both were open-casted: especially the former. Does not read at all as a far-right Black character specifically. And there is something to be said for the negativity of the rep. But not really imo, just need more of it. You'd think there'd be more given it's the first Black Doctor (and the twist of Dot and Bubble specifically).
I'm glad you guys mention that this is a story about racism, by white people, for white people. I've barely seen it mentioned, which made me a little angry. It is the least interesting version of itself, given that, and also inappropate in places as a result. And for it to be celebrated so loudly by white audiences is pretty damning too. It's all very self-congratulatory. Doctor Who's second story about racism, Ncuti's first story acknowledging his race, and first he shot, and he isn't even the lead character. No, that's a white woman. The most white-centric perspective of a black story imaginable. How useful is that? How _interesting_ is that? I cannot state enough how angry it makes me that this episode is being celebrated. That there are white people pointing out microaggressions like easter eggs. _"I noticed that one too!!"_ And then other white viewers, holding their hands up, _"Wow, this was so powerful, I've learnt a lot about my privilege."_ Why is this about you? Why is this for you? 'Black story' made in the most comfortable way for white consumers. You don't even have to so much as look at a black person until the final scene! And that's Dr. Who! Comfy familiar policeman-doctor British iconography in man-shaped-form! It is embarrassing. Maybe RTD and and co should drop their own bubble, and let some black people into the clique. Just look at how Mark Tonderai got the job, as you made me aware! And yet Russell and his team and his fans and his viewers pat themselves and each other on the back for being so damn progressive. While also stanning Ricky September for being _"A Good one."_ They have just unmasked themselves in that last action: that is how they view themselves. And I agree that they're like Ricky! I just don't mean it as a compliment haha. At least Rosa materially, in the real world, paid a black writer, black lead roles, and black side characters. This episode did none of that. It contributed nothing but relieving white guilt. The fact that ""progressive"" whotubers are ranking this in their tops 3s is really upsetting to me. It's not just bad: it surely should never have been made. My very least favourite Doctor Who story. Cos the pace, structure, and set-pieces (what set-pieces?) were so dull, on top of the grisly politics beneath, and context beneath that.
22:29 Nah, this is a very reductive take and it's messing up everything else. It's not _just_ about racism, but about epistemic bubbles in _general._ This is why Ricky September is portrayed as a largely sympathetic character, *even in his interactions with the Doctor* - he doesn't go outside when he turns the bubble off, he stays inside and *reads history.* Bigotry _comes_ from epistemic bubbles, but it's not the sole focus of the episode. It also comments on how skill sets atrophy, how culture turns towards the banal, and how people forget crucial information that's needed in emergencies - how they won't even realize that emergencies are happening. (And, for the record, some of the people I've seen talking about this episode pushing the "it's only about racism" angle, _including PoCs_ have said some of the most bigoted shit I've ever seen. They're in their own epistemic bubbles that causes these things. The hypothetical audience being discussed here is not the only one that the narrow point speaks to, even if Davies is making a broader point.) (On a related note, while I think there's a clear misfocus on parts of RtD's intent - and the comment of his cited shows this, I do think that it should have focused on a PoC POV, and his intent should have been different. The points made about black joy, etc, by Agatha are well taken.) 1:08:03 I mean, _Class?_ :P 1:12:54 Nah, Lindy was also going to get disciplined. (This is part of my problem with the episode, while the people are pretty clearly too aggressive in dealing with the Doctor, and there's only white people, many of the hints actually make sense in referring to normal things in the episode, because RtD wants to preserve the twist. It's just trying to be too clever for that shock value at the end, when it could have focused more on PoC POVs.)
I don’t think you’re quite right on your last point, she isn’t going to get disciplined, she’s told by her friends “you’re going to get disciplined for this. **Seriously, does that even exist?**” - so they think disciplining could be a myth, or (another interpretation) they’re specifically thinking that disciplining for white rich kids like Lindy is essentially mythical, a “could that really happen???” sort of far fetched possibility.
@@tommarshall4561 That's fair! But it's at least raised as possible for Lindy, and I think the larger point I'm referencing there is still solid. (eg, while it's clear what Davies is going for with "I thought you just looked the same" imo, I could forgive someone who interpreted it as just Gatwa looking like, well, Gatwa.)
_"It's not just about racism, but about epistemic bubbles in general"_ - I totally agree. It's a shame that the wider issues raised in this episode have been overlooked/over-ridden by the "Shock horror! Racism!" reveal at the end.
@@ftumschk If you're interested, Traldi has a book out recently that touches on these issues, political epistemology. It's open access. _Political Beliefs: A Philosophical Introduction._ I will warn you that Traldi is a bit of a... provocateur, and is probably best described as a libertarian. So that's important context for parts of the book, where his views slightly flavor it. But in general it's a decent text.
There’s a lot to unpack about what you guys were saying about the audience. What I gathered, and correct me if I’m wrong, was you were arguing that the episode’s admonishing of its presumably white audience is still a form of pandering, which the racism at the end plays into with the Doctor being victimised for being black. To that, I have to disagree. The Doctor’s position within the story is not that of a victim. His tears at the end to me aren’t those of a powerless victim, but a benevolent god-shepard resigned to the fact his children have strayed too far. From the Doctor’s pov, “blackness” has got nothing to do with it. Like 13’s sex, Agath’s worry about 15’s “blackness” potentially only being deployed in a negative context rubs up against the fact that the Doctor is a shape-shifting alien. They inherently have none of the context to comment believably on gender or race therefore they themselves can’t celebrate it. (Plus, I don’t think there is a right way to celebrate being “black”.) Ncuti’s Scottish heritage is easy enough to use within the show because you can rationalise the kilt as the Doctor dressing up for fun, but his race is more difficult without breaking the character’s internal consistency, or having an episode where that disconnect from his own body is the point. Haven’t finished the podcast yet, so maybe these points have already been redressed, but either way fascinating discussion. Addendum: When it comes to what you were saying about what the story avoids, like saying the words “black”, “white”, “racism”, I wonder if it’s not so much avoiding it and more just letting it speak for itself.
Though this is my least favourite episode of Doctor Who, and the subversion is one of its biggest downfalls, I will say it is quite savvy to switch from a social media story to a racism story the way it does. We go into the episode already knowing what we're getting, and knowing that Old-Man-Russell will mess it up and we'll all hate it. And we watch it, and that's exactly what happens. Fans even having dubbed it _"The cringe one"_ and ranking it 8th in predictions. We're safe and comfortable in our projected bubbles of expectations, feeling superior to the writer because of his demographic, before the bubble is popped and the wider story of racism and ethnostates is revealed. Russell weaponises the prejudice fans have against him (myself included) to align the audience with the racists of the story. It's a clever structural trick to demand introspection. There are many issues with this, however. The first: this needed a second part. Unveiling the story to be about racism shouldn't be a _"twist at the end",_ as you put it, but a feature. Part 2 should have featured an all-black cast, and probably a black writer/director, right? Flip-Flop gets flip-flopped. Finetime is a dome: we need to see the full bubble. Flip the camera, i.e. Flesh and Stone. From overclass to underclass. I dunno, _Black and White_ by Russell T Davies and Malorie Blackman, and _White and Black_ by Malorie Blackman and Russell T Davies. I don't imagine a world in which there will ever be an RTD Doctor Who series _not_ majoritively penned by Russell. But it's the better one. He only needs to be doing 4/9 now, surely? And that's the second core issue: as I have gone over, this is a story about racism _by_ white people _for_ white people. Without part 2, the episode exists only to scrutinise (and I do wonder if also to congratulate and reassure) white people. Why? Who cares? Racism stories should feature, and be about, and be for, people who undergo racism. If nothing else, it's just more interesting a story. But there is a hell of a lot _else,_ of course.
@@nightowl8477but DiC dwells for far far longer in its prickly and uncomfortable elements. The whole back half recontextualises the first. It’s not like it just drops the bombshell with 10 minutes to go that actually this story has been about misogyny all along, it has real time - agonising amounts of time - to explore that.
Also love how the slugs are easy to avoid, but the society of Finetime are so stupid they literally walk into them or don't notice them. Anyone else would survive pretty easily.
Great to have Agatha back on this one, she’s a wonderful guest :)
On watching, my preference was also that the Sluggos are the native species, would add an undertone to the already existent colonialist aspects, but I appreciated the commentary here on how they don’t quite make sense and are almost a kind of breaking down of narrative logic.
thumbnail be thumbnailin'
So excited t o hear yalls thoughts
please please Please say you're doing a video on Douglas is Cancelled, you probably will anyway but goddamn i am teeming with thoughts and I'd love to hear you lot's opinions on it 💓
(massive improvement on Inside Man, there is hope for Moffat yet 🙏😌😌)
Of course! It's coming!
I also don't know how well this _"litmus test"_ of white actors works in a season with no Black side characters outside of Carla, Cherry, and Jocelyn. The Devil's Chord has none, Boom has none, 73 Yards has none, Rogue has none, Empire of Death has none. Space Babies has one Black side character, Legend of Ruby Sunday has two.
I think that depends how charitably one is inclined. Roger Ap Gwilliam’s head of communications may not be a very big part, but he is a side character, and he is Black.
@@tommarshall4561 - yess, someone pointed out him and Harriet Arbinger to me. I think he's well a prominant enough character to count towards rep, he's got a fair few lines. I think the latter maybe feels less so, she only has one or two lines before the reveal if I remember correctly. And I have to assume both were open-casted: especially the former. Does not read at all as a far-right Black character specifically. And there is something to be said for the negativity of the rep. But not really imo, just need more of it. You'd think there'd be more given it's the first Black Doctor (and the twist of Dot and Bubble specifically).
Remember, it's not "Lindy Peppa Bean" but "Lindy Pepper Bean", with a hard R.
har har
I'm glad you guys mention that this is a story about racism, by white people, for white people. I've barely seen it mentioned, which made me a little angry. It is the least interesting version of itself, given that, and also inappropate in places as a result. And for it to be celebrated so loudly by white audiences is pretty damning too. It's all very self-congratulatory.
Doctor Who's second story about racism, Ncuti's first story acknowledging his race, and first he shot, and he isn't even the lead character. No, that's a white woman. The most white-centric perspective of a black story imaginable. How useful is that? How _interesting_ is that? I cannot state enough how angry it makes me that this episode is being celebrated. That there are white people pointing out microaggressions like easter eggs. _"I noticed that one too!!"_ And then other white viewers, holding their hands up, _"Wow, this was so powerful, I've learnt a lot about my privilege."_ Why is this about you? Why is this for you? 'Black story' made in the most comfortable way for white consumers. You don't even have to so much as look at a black person until the final scene! And that's Dr. Who! Comfy familiar policeman-doctor British iconography in man-shaped-form! It is embarrassing.
Maybe RTD and and co should drop their own bubble, and let some black people into the clique. Just look at how Mark Tonderai got the job, as you made me aware! And yet Russell and his team and his fans and his viewers pat themselves and each other on the back for being so damn progressive. While also stanning Ricky September for being _"A Good one."_ They have just unmasked themselves in that last action: that is how they view themselves. And I agree that they're like Ricky! I just don't mean it as a compliment haha.
At least Rosa materially, in the real world, paid a black writer, black lead roles, and black side characters. This episode did none of that. It contributed nothing but relieving white guilt.
The fact that ""progressive"" whotubers are ranking this in their tops 3s is really upsetting to me. It's not just bad: it surely should never have been made. My very least favourite Doctor Who story. Cos the pace, structure, and set-pieces (what set-pieces?) were so dull, on top of the grisly politics beneath, and context beneath that.
22:29 Nah, this is a very reductive take and it's messing up everything else. It's not _just_ about racism, but about epistemic bubbles in _general._ This is why Ricky September is portrayed as a largely sympathetic character, *even in his interactions with the Doctor* - he doesn't go outside when he turns the bubble off, he stays inside and *reads history.* Bigotry _comes_ from epistemic bubbles, but it's not the sole focus of the episode. It also comments on how skill sets atrophy, how culture turns towards the banal, and how people forget crucial information that's needed in emergencies - how they won't even realize that emergencies are happening. (And, for the record, some of the people I've seen talking about this episode pushing the "it's only about racism" angle, _including PoCs_ have said some of the most bigoted shit I've ever seen. They're in their own epistemic bubbles that causes these things. The hypothetical audience being discussed here is not the only one that the narrow point speaks to, even if Davies is making a broader point.)
(On a related note, while I think there's a clear misfocus on parts of RtD's intent - and the comment of his cited shows this, I do think that it should have focused on a PoC POV, and his intent should have been different. The points made about black joy, etc, by Agatha are well taken.)
1:08:03 I mean, _Class?_ :P
1:12:54 Nah, Lindy was also going to get disciplined. (This is part of my problem with the episode, while the people are pretty clearly too aggressive in dealing with the Doctor, and there's only white people, many of the hints actually make sense in referring to normal things in the episode, because RtD wants to preserve the twist. It's just trying to be too clever for that shock value at the end, when it could have focused more on PoC POVs.)
I don’t think you’re quite right on your last point, she isn’t going to get disciplined, she’s told by her friends “you’re going to get disciplined for this. **Seriously, does that even exist?**” - so they think disciplining could be a myth, or (another interpretation) they’re specifically thinking that disciplining for white rich kids like Lindy is essentially mythical, a “could that really happen???” sort of far fetched possibility.
@@tommarshall4561 That's fair! But it's at least raised as possible for Lindy, and I think the larger point I'm referencing there is still solid. (eg, while it's clear what Davies is going for with "I thought you just looked the same" imo, I could forgive someone who interpreted it as just Gatwa looking like, well, Gatwa.)
_"It's not just about racism, but about epistemic bubbles in general"_ - I totally agree. It's a shame that the wider issues raised in this episode have been overlooked/over-ridden by the "Shock horror! Racism!" reveal at the end.
@@ftumschk If you're interested, Traldi has a book out recently that touches on these issues, political epistemology. It's open access. _Political Beliefs: A Philosophical Introduction._ I will warn you that Traldi is a bit of a... provocateur, and is probably best described as a libertarian. So that's important context for parts of the book, where his views slightly flavor it. But in general it's a decent text.
There’s a lot to unpack about what you guys were saying about the audience.
What I gathered, and correct me if I’m wrong, was you were arguing that the episode’s admonishing of its presumably white audience is still a form of pandering, which the racism at the end plays into with the Doctor being victimised for being black.
To that, I have to disagree. The Doctor’s position within the story is not that of a victim. His tears at the end to me aren’t those of a powerless victim, but a benevolent god-shepard resigned to the fact his children have strayed too far. From the Doctor’s pov, “blackness” has got nothing to do with it.
Like 13’s sex, Agath’s worry about 15’s “blackness” potentially only being deployed in a negative context rubs up against the fact that the Doctor is a shape-shifting alien. They inherently have none of the context to comment believably on gender or race therefore they themselves can’t celebrate it. (Plus, I don’t think there is a right way to celebrate being “black”.)
Ncuti’s Scottish heritage is easy enough to use within the show because you can rationalise the kilt as the Doctor dressing up for fun, but his race is more difficult without breaking the character’s internal consistency, or having an episode where that disconnect from his own body is the point.
Haven’t finished the podcast yet, so maybe these points have already been redressed, but either way fascinating discussion.
Addendum:
When it comes to what you were saying about what the story avoids, like saying the words “black”, “white”, “racism”, I wonder if it’s not so much avoiding it and more just letting it speak for itself.
Though this is my least favourite episode of Doctor Who, and the subversion is one of its biggest downfalls, I will say it is quite savvy to switch from a social media story to a racism story the way it does.
We go into the episode already knowing what we're getting, and knowing that Old-Man-Russell will mess it up and we'll all hate it. And we watch it, and that's exactly what happens. Fans even having dubbed it _"The cringe one"_ and ranking it 8th in predictions. We're safe and comfortable in our projected bubbles of expectations, feeling superior to the writer because of his demographic, before the bubble is popped and the wider story of racism and ethnostates is revealed. Russell weaponises the prejudice fans have against him (myself included) to align the audience with the racists of the story. It's a clever structural trick to demand introspection.
There are many issues with this, however. The first: this needed a second part. Unveiling the story to be about racism shouldn't be a _"twist at the end",_ as you put it, but a feature. Part 2 should have featured an all-black cast, and probably a black writer/director, right? Flip-Flop gets flip-flopped. Finetime is a dome: we need to see the full bubble. Flip the camera, i.e. Flesh and Stone. From overclass to underclass. I dunno, _Black and White_ by Russell T Davies and Malorie Blackman, and _White and Black_ by Malorie Blackman and Russell T Davies. I don't imagine a world in which there will ever be an RTD Doctor Who series _not_ majoritively penned by Russell. But it's the better one. He only needs to be doing 4/9 now, surely?
And that's the second core issue: as I have gone over, this is a story about racism _by_ white people _for_ white people. Without part 2, the episode exists only to scrutinise (and I do wonder if also to congratulate and reassure) white people. Why? Who cares? Racism stories should feature, and be about, and be for, people who undergo racism. If nothing else, it's just more interesting a story. But there is a hell of a lot _else,_ of course.
I think Douglas is Cancelled does something very similar.
@@nightowl8477but DiC dwells for far far longer in its prickly and uncomfortable elements. The whole back half recontextualises the first. It’s not like it just drops the bombshell with 10 minutes to go that actually this story has been about misogyny all along, it has real time - agonising amounts of time - to explore that.
Congrats on the back pay + tv work!
@@najawin8348 - thank you! Might invest in HBO to finally catch The Time Traveller's Wife
@@nightowl8477 Or you might be able to get it as a DVD from your local library.