Inside a combined power bank and jump starter
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- Опубликовано: 1 июл 2022
- I got this unit to explore it as an option for providing a high current 12V power supply for short term use. It's a car jump starter and USB power bank. The 12V output is direct from the lithium battery pack with no protection, so care would need to be taken not to over discharge the pack when using it as a 12V supply.
The connector is a standard EC5 high current battery connector, which is handy. The USB connector has floating data pins, so it may not be recognised by some devices.
It's a very modular design. A microcontroller that displays charge level and controls the buck regulator for the 5V output that is also used for the LED, and a current regulator for charging the lithium pack that has a three cell protection chip and matching charge/discharge control MOSFETs. One oddity is the use of the microcontroller to directly drive the charging buck regulator's MOSFET.
The Battery pack has a four pin connector for charging and monitoring individual cell voltage. There's no balancing, just a shut-off when one of the cells reaches about 4.25V. It also has the high current connector tapped directly across the pack that then feeds a plug-in jump start module that contains the anti-reverse charging diodes and the MOSFETs used to switch the output to the beefy alligator clips when a separate microcontroller detects that suitable conditions have been met.
The lithium cells used in these are usually the high current type that have a different internal construction from normal cells. Instead of the electrode foils being long spiral-wound strips, the high current cells often have a stack of alternate layers of electrode foils and dielectric separators with a cluster of parallel tabs brought out the end of the cell. This allows discharge at very high currents, in brief bursts of hundreds of amps.
It looks a fairly sensible design, but as with most of these jump starters it's only really suited to an occasional quick jump start as opposed to endless cranking of an engine with issues that caused the car's battery to go flat in the first place.
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The chat about the mAh rating is exactly why these things should exclusively use mWh/Wh instead as that builds in the voltage element.
Absolutely, 100% correct.
I agree. Ah is basically counting the number of electrons it can output, which is not a useful piece of information. What matters is the energy it can output, which is what Wh tells you.
Err, no! Clearly the English branding was done by somebody who didn't know what they were doing, or using trickery, referring to what the USB port can output rather than what the 12V output could... the answer is to provide the correct number, not ban the use of one way of measuring something. It would be helpful when doing comparisons to have the Wh number provided also, but "exclusively"? That's not helping anyone.
Yes. This. Its so annoying seeing capacity listed as mAh... goddamit just use Wh!
I'm still confused that 3x2600 = 8000 when 3x26=78 🧩🤷😁
A family friend swore by one of these for a while, had a car with a very low battery drain so wouldn't start if left for a week or two. Not worth getting fixed and a new battery didn't solve. This saved her multiple times, great little device as far as I'm concerned.
Always amazed at these little things - I used to have one years ago the size of a suitcase (it had wheels!) and it would struggle with some bigger engines or diesels, now I have one I can slip in my coat pocket and it has no issue spinning my current 3 litre diesel.
Om606 by any chance?
When I turned over my mom's car with a jump starter slightly bigger than this unit she didn't think it would work. It worked just fine, car started right up.
That's pretty interesting. I guess I would never have thought that anybody would have bothered with a battery-powered jumpstarter before Li-Ion ones became commonplace. Was the "suitcase" one a lead-acid battery? Was it charged by a trickle charger?
Ahh but the suitcase model was built better I bet😊
I suspect the limiting factor with the large lead acid jump starter battery design was the resistance of the connecting cables and alligator clips. As a good quality lead acid battery has a very low internal resistance. Hence why they were used for starter motor batteries in the first place. Of course this assumes that the battery in the jump starter is a good quality high current type and has been maintained and kept charged…
To power 12V LEDs with cell protection, strip off all the control stuff on the 12V board except the switching transistors. Take a feed from the USB output just to turn them on as needed. Then it's battery monitoring will cut it off due to imbalance or excessive discharge, which will in turn shut off the 12V output.
Smart that they went with a 15V charging voltage, as that means you can easily charge it from you vehicle after its stated.... since a running vehicle (with a good alternator) outputs anywhere from 14V to 14.8V.
Took it to bits without us! Great episode regardless, thanks Clive!
This topic is worthy of a separate channel. Clive is doing excellent work on this so far. I tried to post the message below last night but it got blocked (presumably because I had included a link to an ebay ad for a 60w charger - mine was 200w). The chargers are called "Charger/Discharger". They will disharge all cells down to 3.7v if you are not planning to use them for a long period. People need to be aware that these things are dangerous. Whenever I was charging larger batteries then I always had an "escape route" planned (for me + battery) - just incase.
-----previous deleted message -----
Even that isn't as powerful as the ones I was using. I had firebags, trays, etc, etc...
I love the excellent work that Clive is doing with batteries because the more people who understand how lethal these things are -> the better. These things even managed to ground the entire fleet of Boeing 787's having caught fire. They ain't funny. I had a £350 mountain bike light that actually caught fire *_in my hand_* !!!
For the smaller diesels, these are amazing little devices. We keep one in the Wife's Holden Rodeo "just in case", and it has proven itself very useful on the many occasions we've needed it. Obviously perfectly capable of starting the smaller (10hp) diesel generators if needed (i.e. when the "trickle charger" wasn't actually plugged in . . . :-) )
Until it catches on fire. 😉
@@Vousie The car or the jump starter?
@@Vousie Even more multi-purpose! (now has an added "hand warmer" function!) :-) :-)
For protection, maybe add a big relay powered from the USB 5V output? This way, the device will shut off when cells are discharged. Remember to cut off the high current board too, as its microcontroller draws significant current the whole time it's connected.
These are super items to have if your vehicle will not start up. I am amazed at how small they are yet pack a punch so large.
We used the Ablic IC for secondary OVP for an ASIL-D 12V automotive pack. It’s definitely shouldn’t be used as a substitute for charging. There are standalone true BMS IC’s but I understand why most manufacturers don’t use them, they can be quite complex little systems. But this is the safest approach.
Speaking of automotive applications… Sometimes we will put redundant parts in series or parallel parts to take more current but specify different part numbers to get a better FIT rate and also to ensure during mass production if a batch of parts has an issue, it’s not effecting the second part. In this product it might be they were available but yeah it’s a common practice in safety critical systems.
designed a car amp/battery, bro 🤣
@@808bigisland What?
It looks the same as the 1 you took apart before, the 1 with blown mosfets. Great video as usual Clive.
I know the Genius Noco are over priced but I love my NOCO jump starter. Never lets me down even with a big V8.
Thanks Clive for another great circuit breakdown. A lot of what you mention is above my limited A level knowledge from over 30 years ago but I can relate to a lot of what you say from things that come back to me. I find them really entertaining and have admiration for your highly superior knowledge and experience. Thanks again and look forward to future posts. Kevin
Fab vid again as usual : 2 thingys however.
1. One thing that rarely get any mentions is the "C rating" of the battery. That's it's ability to shoe out maximum current without damaging itself. It's actually a very important value to larger drone flyers. I used to have a 6s 22.2v 30c battery to power a dji s800. It was actually quite scary - larger than a house brick and twice as heavy.
2. My understanding from about 10 years ago is that the way the charger brings all of the cells up to 4.2v is that if one has reached 4.2v but others are still around 4.0v then it actually automatically *_discharges_* the 4.2v cell in order that it can continue charging the other two - that's what the balance lead is for if you are charging via the main high current leads. This knowledge might be out of date.
You can't discharge an individual cell if its sense wire is connected to a microcontroller sense pin and to nothing else (as is the case with this device). There is no discharge path.
@@Slicerwizard Hi matey. I should have made it clear that I'm not talking specifically about this device but rather ones which are charged by 200W external chargers where there is most definitely a discharge path back out again.. Sorry for the confusion there. My bad.
Clive specifically mentions that this circuit only does sensing/protection, not balancing. Common among smaller BMS circuits, really. You can get separate cell balance circuits that are speced by how many amps they'll send between cells, to attempt to match voltages.
Any sparks working with actual figures should be made aware, the LiPo market is packed to the gills with absurdly irresponsible ratings. I did a quick eval on probably a dozen brands and not one met rating. I'm talking 200-500% over-rated, with catastrophic heat and voltage drop at continuous "rated" current. Vet yourself a real manufacturer and perform your own discharge tests to be sure. Personally I got the hell out of prismatics.
@@ryanrehfuss Yeah - these lipos are getting insanely powerful today. I had one that could (and DID) start a car. And that one was only the size of two "candy bar" mobile phones trapped together. I had a much bigger one than that. Just look at how many fires that the fire service is now having to deal with.... And they can't extinguish them. There needs to be at least some kinda "moritorium" on these because they are fk terryfying. I'm not for governance of everything but in the case of these things ...... well .... they are a "clear and present danger". I've got a couple sitting outside such that if anything goes wrong then they are in a place where they won't take down buildings or lives.
I have two of these such devices to jump start my Cummings diesel. When you go to use them.. I miss the old school battery charger/ jumper. I so miss old school. And as always, love your content. You taught me a lot. As many of the public. I was surprised they don't have the smart charger attachment. Because I fly radio control. Three four and six cell. And they have that alternative plug just saying
I carry one of these and love it for most of my cars. Most. The poor things really don't like the 390c.i./6.4l V8 in our '61 Thunderbird. I had one smoke itself just trying to turn over that big American beast. Honestly, I kind of expected that. :-)
You can get beefier ones for the bigger engines.
@@bigclivedotcom Where's the fun in that?
Can you get a geared starter motor for your V8? I have one in my 6.0L V12 Jag and it is way more efficient than a regular starter motor.
I have a Duracell one it’s started a 3 litre diesel 3-4 times in a row pretty good to get out of trouble.
You have to be a American? more cylinders, bigger engine, more fuel, louder, turbo, supercharger, big tires
I’ve had a few of these when they used SLA batteries, they required a handle due to the weight. Now I’ve got one of these types now and it’s amazing the size engine it can start.
The phones BigClive mentions are the Samsung Galaxy Note 7. The issue with those was actually slightly different from what BigClive describes -- no real fault of his, it's hard to find out what actually happened. I no longer remember my source (perils of ADD-associated and other memory issues) but it was extremely trustworthy.
Basically what happened was, lithium cells, especially pouch cells, need a very tiny amount of extra space allocated to them when charging, because charging makes them swell very slightly. During the design phase of the phone in question, this space was not allocated, as a management directive over the protests of the engineers. Thus, when charging is attempted, the battery kind of swells into itself, if that makes sense, and shorts out internally... which, because it's a lithium battery, means that extraordinary energy density kind of lets loose all at once.
For the less-technical amongst us: an internal short in a battery is the equivalent of connecting the two battery terminals directly together with a bit of wire, but INSIDE the battery. If you've ever done that thing where you test a car battery by twiddling a wrench between the terminals to get sparks, you kinda know what you're in for here. If not... well, the spectacular shows the Note 7 put on are pretty well documented at this point... other videos on YT will help. Basically imagine one of those cheap home fireworks sets you get at Wal*Mart going off inside your phone -- the _entire_ set, all at once! (In the famous word of Wile E. Coyote: YIPE.)
The kicker here is that the space required for the battery to properly function was a mere one-tenth of one millimeter. That distance is imperceptible to the human eye. If you want to try and conceptualize it... go to an office supply store, they sell 0.5mm (half-millimeter diameter) pencil lead for mechanical pencils. Look at the pencil lead in that size and imagine something 1/5 as thin... or go to Wal*Mart and look at the 0.7mm lead and divide by seven instead of five. (or divide by eight, it's easier -- divide in half, then in fourths -- and there's essentially no difference at that point lol.)
Management people do dumb stuff sometimes.
I think one corner of the cell space was also compromised and made that size change during charging more critical.
@@bigclivedotcom I've not heard that, but I've not heard a lot. Could be.
I can't remember which game it was, but theychanged the 3d model for a hand grenade into a Samsung note7 around that time. It was hilarious to see combatants in game tossing Samsung's into bunkers and then they explode.
One of these has proven itself a couple of times for me, really handy compared to those massive jump starter packs. Though I switched to a car with a much larger engine so I'm not sure if it would handle it anymore, probably wouldn't work too well on a diesel either
The mAh ratings of these things are reminiscent of the home stereo amplifier wattage ratings of the 1960s and 1970s. The sky was the limit when it came to wattage numbers and how they were contrived. All were inflated, none were believable. Car stereo amplifiers' output power numbers today are still part of the gobbledegook that marketing teams love so much. Thanks for the video Clive.
Looks very clever thanks for the explanation Clive
So handy on a farm in winter when batteries start showing their age. Helps get another 9 months life out of starting batteries. Several years for my ride on.
This even starts our EVs when the accessory battery goes flat inexplicably, very occasionally.
Buy a reputable brand starter pack for longer life.
I clip the positive straight to the starter positive for my tractor, as the battery is complicated to access. Ground is always tricky to find.
I have a simple trick for finding ground, take a ball, hold it out in front of you and then let it go. It will usually travel towards ground.
I own the same powerbank/booster. ive had it for 3 years and was a great investment!! i live in a block of flats and through lockdown not using my car much it would have been a pain in the arse to charge the battery so this tiny little unit fired up my 1.6 zafira when the battery was flat no problem at all. being able to charge via usb is also incredibly handy. the only downside is that when charging something via usb the torch light keeps blinking randomly. Other than that its a great little product.
Mr.Big Clive..
Tx.a Lot....
Hello from Latvia....
And Yes..good job
Keep up.
Between a group of us, one had a dead car and another had an apparently identical device to jump start it with success recently! I didn't realize the unit also serves as a usb charger, but I can imagine routinely keeping a phone charge fresh would limit expectations as an emergency car starter! X-)
This is amazing to me. Last time I checked in on portable jump-starters, they were the size of a cinder block and about as heavy
Yeah that would be because the traditional jumper packs have a lead acid battery in them, exactly what's in the car but a slightly smaller version. Still extremely heavy though. Really impressive to pull hundreds of amps from a small lithium battery without blowing it up
Excellently explained as always Clive. My friend fried my sons ECU with one of these on his VW Polo. The battery of the car was very flat and he killed it..
Did he connect it backwards?
@@fredbloggs5902 No. It was the surge of power I think..
It's usually a reverse connection that blows up the ECUs.
A very good Sunday morning to you all from Wellington Somerset
Interesting device - I'd not seen these before.
Now I'm expecting to find that someone has made a USB powerbank that can be used to start a railway locomotive. Their starter batteries are just a weeny bit bigger than most cars, vans and lorries. ;-)
I used to jump start them when I was an apprentice, Used welding cables and another running loco. And lots of easy start.
If someone has access to a loco and a spare one of these it would be fun to try it
@@ianhosier4042 I have access to a 23L cummins marine diesel, unfortunately the starter is 24V otherwise I would be tempted.
If only they realized that the rails conduct electricity which could be used to power the train. The Japanese did that nearly 60 years ago.
@@NiHaoMike64 Maybe that's why electric locomotives were invented.
Not exactly sure about the one you tested, but, I've had a similar one for several years now and have started a couple of cars with flat batteries although none of them mine.
One was just a guy on the side of the road with his bonnet/hood open.
The last one was about a month ago and only just got it started because I hadn't charged the pack for quite a few months.
For their size and portability I think they're amazing.
This one has USB sockets, torch, flashing red and blue lights and a bunch of DC plugs to run a laptop or whatever all in a handy hard plastic case.
For $45AUD (50% off the normal price) was a great investment.
It surprising how well this little lithium batteries work as jump starters, mine has saved my ass multiple of times.
I literally think to myself there is no way it will start my diesel lol.
Remember the old lead acid ones lol, frigging big and heavy.
AvE was giving you a big shout out!
I have one of these, it takes several goes to start my 1.6L petrol focus if the battery is dead, but it does work in the end.
My banggood special one of these is still going strong. It even has a 19V output and a set of connectors to run a laptop.
My old boat diesel needs a nominal 70 amps for the starter motor, so this little thing should in theory be able to turn it for over 2 minutes then, that's quite impressive.
I bought a similar cheap device, except instead of jump-starting, it plugs into the cigarette lighter to trickle-charge a vehicle battery without having to remove the battery from the vehicle.
It worked great. It took a dozen charge cycles over three days to recharge a dead car battery to the point it could start itself. And now I have a USB power bank with a cigarette lighter adaptor to recharge itself in the car.
It sounds ridiculous.
I would recommend AGAINST using any product that uses the cigarette lighter socket for jump starts or charging. Thin wiring to the socket, questionable quality of electrical connection at the socket, some cars require the ignition be left on to close the circuit to the lighter socket, and the circuit is typically fused at 10A.
@@dashcamandy2242 Obviously, jump-starting off a cigarette lighter wouldn't work, because it would just blow the fuse. Assuming it didn't trip overcurrent protection on the battery bank first.
10A is already considered a 'fast charge' for a lead-acid battery, most standard lead-acid battery chargers are only 5-6 Amps, with trickle chargers being 1-3 Amps. At that point it hardly matters whether you're directly on the battery terminals or not.
it jumpstarted my sunday
Output for voltage is protected. The mosfets are controlled and will not allow it to deplete the cells too low.
I recently cooked one of these things (car wont start and i tried for a lil bit too long). Whole pack grew like 20% in size. Also it was a much bigger pack like yours here, almost 4x in size (not sure baut the capacity) Now its sitting in a bucket of sand waiting for disposal
Funny enough I used one to try and start a car with starting problems and after cranking for almost 2 minutes I decided to try and use the starter motor to help with pushing it. That stalled the starter, which drew peak current at that point
The battery pack survived, because the positive lead unsoldered itself from the protection circuit when the diodes got hot enough to melt the solder. Even more impressive: I soldered it back on and it still works as of today.
Used 2 of these to start my totally flat focus. My family are great ones for flattening car batteries. Lol
Sounds a lot like the DeWalt flexvolt batteries (can be used in 60v and 20v tools), where they advertise them as being 60 volt, 9 amp hour. But in the fine print, they mention is 60 volt, 3 amp hour, or 20 volt, 9 amp hour. Its 3 banks of 20v 3 amp batteries, and the controller on the battery either runs them in series or parallel depending on the tool youre using.
More safe than I expected.
A trick that is used on car battery chargers and some jump starters to make the output "short circuit proof" when not connected to a battery, is to use one or more High power MOSFET's in series, and the Gate(s) are powered by the battery voltage to turn on the MOSFET's that then pass the high circuit through.
"Do not open!"-Batterybank
"too late" -Clive
Awesome Video big clive
I sell the NOCO brand large versions of these. Big enough to start a semi truck. They always scare me because that is so much energy to be using on the side of the road by a mechanic that just throws it around like a rag. 💥
Another great choice of tear down and reverse engineering. I own a Schumacher V8 1200 amp one $100 at Walmart. Thing is really good, zero polarity or short protection as I found out being ultra distracted by a woman hooking it to her broken car backwards... It did go into some protect after a huge amount of sparks being thrown and thankfully was no worse for wear. Be careful with these I'd say it could be a stick of dynamite easily. Cheers Happy 4th of July.
Having the 12V circuit separate makes shutdown due to low cell voltage difficult. The charge control output that drives the 5V could be leveraged to signal the 12V side but that requires at least another connection.
But if you're in the business of selling tat, such niceties are counter-profitable
That little button on the external Anderson connector is a Reset for when there's a short or reverse polarity.
Morning Clive me old mate!
Golly you do work around the clock, I am ill so up at all sorts of time, what’s your excuse? Lol
You are still the only channel I can click ‘thumbs up’ before I even watch because your work is so reliable. And once again I enjoyed this video it explains a lot.
Kindest
Bob
England
I'm super-nocturnal.
Thanks.
Ah-ha! I too have a blatant disregard for the words "do not open" printed on items! 😆 I seriously believe that Big Clive could find a way to explain a paperclip that would keep me interested. 😀
Clive would at least give an honest current rating for the paperclip.
.. Cheers to you. ..
These things are lethal if you leave them in the sun on your vehicle dashboard as the battery 'Envelope' expands like an old school military explosive
It occurs to me that the four-pin connector might couple with the pins on an external balancing circuit which provides "bottom balancing" by reading the cell voltages and then discharging the higher cells down to the same level as the lowest cell.
I have a couple of those external balancers. I think they're branded as "Cellmate" or something similar.
If the USB port in that power bank can only supply 1 Amp then leaving the data lines unconnected should cause anything plugged in to default to 1A or lower. If the port can supply more current, then it should be easy to add a couple of quarter-watt resistors to "announce" the current limit.
I made my own battery bank and since it can supply at least 4A, I linked the two data lines with a piece of wire. That tells anything to which it is connected that this is a dedicated power supply and so it can take as much current as it likes, right up to the maximum current limit for USB ports.
Please give more details so I can build the same thing please! I've been looking for something that will truly give more than 2.4A
@@user-nn1ct9ph4u My method isn't for everyone. What I ended up with isn't exactly portable, but it suits me just fine.
The heart of the whole thing is a simple "buck converter" which takes a 12V input (but can take anything from around 9V up to 30V) and I've adjusted it to provide a 5V output.
I bought the buck converter online and, assuming that claims made about how much current it can supply have been vastly exaggerated, I'm saying that it can probably supply up to 4A.
I use a bank of lithium-cell batteries which I charge via a solar panel through a balancing circuit, also purchased online.
So I'm sorry but I have no simple description for you as to how I did it.
These devices are so interesting: it's such an obviously useful device. Completely replace jumper cables, don't need a second donor car.
But they are ALL made by these random nameless companies, there are essentially NO name brand ones backed by any reputable company. The reviews for all of them are a bell curve of of "this is great", "it didn't work", and "it went on fire". Is it just *not possible* to make these reliable? Or would it be so expensive then, that no one would buy them? I can't believe there's no market for really good reliable jumper packs.
It's honestly a chemical problem. Most "portable car starters/jump starters" come into two different categories
Li-ion/pol battery based one, just like what Clive has here. The disadvantage is when you start a car it needs a brief amount of a lot of current. Lithium batteries don't take super well to this kind of ultra high current situation. A lot of complicated control circuitry and a much beefier case/cable set, more R&D. So that's why most of these are disposable, use once or twice and toss when it melts type deal.
You can also get much bigger, bulkier jump-starters that aren't nearly as cheap, but actually have a near/full sized Lead Acid car battery. So it's basically another car battery in a box with wires. They're a lot more reliable given they have similar current ratings to a normal car battery, but , the big downsides are the weight and bulk , as well as LeadAcid having a (comparing to lithium based) high self discharge, these types of units often need to be
-trickle charged off your vehicles main charging system to keep it topped up.
-charged up every few months
It is very interesting though
@@SolluxDivide "You can also get much bigger, bulkier jump-starters that aren't nearly as cheap, but actually have a near/full sized Lead Acid car battery."
I have one of these, and it has a lot of other useful functions, such as a USB output, a 12 cigarette lighter socket, a light, and a compressor.
In a power cut, I can stay on the internet, by running my tablet and router off it.
@@BedsitBob yep! Many of them can act as a power supply in a pinch, but I'd personally suggest getting a UPS for the modem/router/laptop so that they are more protected from electrical faults && will automatically kick to stored power when the line gets funny.
I actually have a Noco, which I'd call a brand one. Works great, and chargeable by USB so it's really handy. Can definitely recommend it.
Part of the issue i see, having worked for seems to be down to two things.
1: The makers cheap out and use only 3 cells instead of 4 in series, while, at least for GM, a 14v lithium jump starter would function much better within its limitations.
2: Lithium batteries aren't really made for ultra high current (1Kw+ at 12v), and so they don't seem to last long compared to a lead acid based jump starter....
There is a reason dealership mechanics use lead acid jump starters, even if the better quality ones are much more expensive. They last through 100s if not 1000s of jumps, and being able to just leave them plugged in, and having the internal battery maintainer deal with keeping them charged is HUGE reason to keep using them.
I personally made my own jump starter out of a very expensive deepcycle/starting battery for a Hybrid vehicle, a set of cables from a failed commercially made jump starter, and a smart battery maintainer, and it works even better then any jump pack i used.
I'm not sure if I missed this point in your discussion, you mentioned powering high-powered LEDs using the 12 V output. On my jump pack it will not output anything to the 12 V jumper cables until it sees a battery connected. Also, I'm not sure if you mentioned it but maybe some of the circuits are to protect connecting the jumper cables in reverse, mine has that feature. It sure was fun listening to you go into details on how my pack may work.
My jumper lead circuit is dead on one of our battery packs. But the connection still runs 12 v.
In conclusions I decided the leads protection circuit is probably toasted, likely by any one of the times we used them to jump start a dead battery because someone left the cars lights on after their journey.
But I also own a Telescope. One with a 12 volt input. Or an option to cram it with a pile of 1.5 volt batteries. It explicitly states do not use Rechargeables in the booklet, so presumably they want a full 12 volts.
Well Guess what? You can buy cigarette plug attachments for these battery packs.
And my telescope doesn't draw much if any current based on battery pack inspection. So in conclusion: it works for a low power application beautifully and I don't have to lug around our backup Car battery we used for jump starts after the jump starter circuit failed us.
Much more convenient.
I'd not be using the external module.
@@glenmcgillivray4707 The reason why they state not to use rechargables is because rechargables can supply a lot more current than dry cells. I'm presuming that your telescope has a motor in it to allow it to track the sky? If so, a stalled motor could easily draw so much current from a rechargable that it burns out the control circuitry, the wiring and the motor, completely ruining the whole thing.
On this type of unit there is usually a "secret" method to activate the output without a battery detected. It might have been something like holding the button while plugging it in.
@@eDoc2020 that blew up. Which is inconvenient when my main use was to get a car that had a flat battery due to aforementioned lights or whatever being left on overnight/all day.
Hence the need for a jump starter.
I think they use different diode packages (back-charge protection on the 12V side) in order to have some redundancy. In case one diode fails, you might want to have the other diodes - which the failed one is parallel to - selected from a different production line, so they don't *all* have the same going-up-in-smoke kind of behaviour. Just like they implement some systems in aviation etc. so that one "action path" of a multi-redundant system is operated microcontroller/servo-based, another one purely mechanically.
What you describe is something you absolutely do not want when putting diodes in parallel. Parts from the same batch are much more likely to have very similar specs (especially forward voltage in this case). If you mix different batches the tolerances mean that one diode will have a significantly lower forward voltage than the others. That diode will take a lot more current than the rest and almost certainly fail first at some point. Then the same happens again to the next diode aso.
The diode packages are the same, clive just said they have different text, which was a different date code. Which means they were likely salvaged parts, or possibly placed and soldered by hand from a bin.
I wonder if we'll ever get one of these designed with protection on the 12v output. Would be great for tinkerers and they could sell accessories like 12v lamps
You can get protected 12V packs. But they are only suitable for a few Amps of current.
Use 4s lipo batteries for jump starting. That extra bit of voltage helps keep the current a bit less ridiculous!
Exelente vidios
I have a similar one of those, however its weird because it has two full size usb ports on it and the way you charge it is through one of those ports. The unit came with a usb cable that has the same end on both sides.
The protection diodes failed in mine so I bridged them with solder. One day while on a job I forgot to disconnect the pack from the vehicle battery for a few minutes and the jump pack inflated and caught alight. Fortunately I noticed before flames occured, but the jump pack ended up as a smouldering pile of carbon.
I'm amazed how much current those diodes can handle though. They failed after several attempts to jumpstart a diesel range rover that was in gear
I went with a supercap based jump starter. Lighter, more durable and heat/cold tolerant, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.
And it dies far too quickly. And expensive AF.
Tremendous engineering skill and creativity on display.
For a change of pace, however: I would love to see another distillation/carbonation experiment. Maybe try it with an american whiskey, just to see what happens. Jack Daniels, Makers Mark, there's some others. Or maybe an aperitif - dummonet, aperol, campari, punt e mes maybe.
I remember Photonicinduction playing around with one of these. I think the 12V connection had just the diodes for protection, nothing else. He actually started his car with just this thing, disconnected the cars internal battery (NEVER DO THAT). Just shows how much current these things can deliver. Pretty scary, carrying that around in your pocket (I certainly wouldn't trust them, at least not in my pockets, or in a car, that can get pretty hot while parked in direct sunlight).
I still have that same model. Works every time. No stupid pushbuttons to turn it on. Just connect the leads, let it put some juice into the dead battery for a while (duration depends on just how dead the car battery is), then start. It has even started and run vehicles with dead batteries and dead alternators long enough to get them home (you've got 10 to 15 minutes, max; helps to disconnect the DRLs and stay off the brake pedal)
clive once did shortcircuit one of these with a copper tube and measured the max. amps. can't remember exactly but it was over 200A IIRC.
I have one of these combined power bank and jump starters and it has come in handy a few times over the last couple of years. And the only difference mine has over the one in the video is a button you have to press when you are connected to a car battery to initialize the process and it squeals at you when the car etc has fired up to force you to disconnect it to prevent damaged. "Arteck Car Jump Starter Auto Battery Booster and 8000mAh External Battery Charger Car Jumper for 12V Automotive, Motorcycle, Tractor, Boat, Phone" and it's no longer listed.
You don't see the pushbutton? It's on the small board clear as day.
@@Slicerwizard I had been up for a long time when I watched the vid.
1:02 Since the battery has the two separate connectors a RC model battery balance charger can balance charge it. The multi cell chargers are amazing they can charge almost all rechargeable batteries. They are programmable,?monitor temperature and discharge for storage.
I just saw something almost identical billed as a spot welder with two contact leads.
Awesome video. I have some higher capacity more “professional” units that I use in my day to day at an automotive shop. I’ve not found anything my NOCO GBX155 won’t turn over. Not even massively upfitted motor homes with 4 or more 12v batteries in parallel. Even with our dual full-sized battery jump start cart, we used to have to disconnect some or all of the batteries to get those beasts running if they were really dead. The Schumacher DSR128 is my second option that the shop owns and then I’ve also got a Amazon special for home use. All three of the ones I own/use have internal disconnects and nothing in the cables as the more run of the mill units do. They each sound as though they have contactors inside them. Any chance you might be able to do a video on a more professional unit like one of the NOCO GBX series or the Schumacher DSR128 or equivalent?
Are the 4 huge in parallel not for the living quarters rather than the starter?
Clive's got an autopsy on at least one NoCo...disengenuously titled "Genius", IIRC. Appealing to the Apple "I" crowd, no doubt :- P
Project Farm did a good shoot-out of a half dozen or so models, a few years back.
I’ll be honest, the municipal garage I work for hasn’t had any luck whatsoever with the NOCO Genius units. My $60 Amazon special GooLoo jump starter seems to turn over our 3-cyl diesel mower engines better than even the mid-sized NOCO does - I thought maybe we got a few duds, but then I saw Project Farm’s review videos which seemed to verify the issues we’ve had with them. They work, they just seem to be rated much higher than the units are capable of.
@@rimmersbryggeri So it depends on who up fitted it and who owns it. As stock straight from the OE manufacturer, the most starter batteries available on the diesel cab chassis is two. A single starter battery is standard with a second being optional. There are also different sized battery options from the OE as well. Most vehicles have one or two 80AH batteries but they can be spec’d with two 100AH batteries. There is also a dual alternator option from the OE. Generally most up fitters will spec the cab chassis as dual battery dual alternator and leave it as is and then add a bank of 4 or 6 deep cycle house batteries. However it is insanely easy to add two more batteries into the starter circuit with bolt on battery mount kits available from many aftermarket suppliers. The kits usually include the required cables as well. Just about anyone with minimal hand tools and technical knowledge can install these two additional batteries in a few hours. The most time consuming part being running the new cables and how clean you want the install to look. In this configuration there will be 4 batteries in parallel in the starter circuit. This is before someone decides that if 4 is good then 5 is better and manages to cobble together a mount and hide a 5th starter battery somewhere. This is very rare but we have seen it. Then we sometimes run into someone who connected the starter batteries to the house batteries without any sort of battery management installed and man that can be a major pain to deal with. Honestly the worst offenders though is the state department vehicles. They will never ever share any information with us about the up fits on the vehicles and because the vehicles are heavily armored it’s often difficult if not impossible to tell what batteries are where with just a quick visual inspection. Also I’ve never seen two identical state department vehicles so you can’t even formulate a standard setup. Sorry to take a short answer and make it long but I get the distinct impression you know what you’re talking about.
@@97marqedman Completely agree. The smaller and midsized NOCO units aren’t worth a damn. In my opinion and experience, you don’t really start to get anything respectable out of them until you step up to at least a GB150. I’ve also seen the project farm video and purchased a GooLoo 4000 unit for home use and it works fantastic when I’ve needed it. I have put my NOCO GBX155, my GooLoo 4000 (the newer heated unit), a Schumacher DSR128 and a NOCO GB70 unit all on a carbon pile. The NOCO GBX155 was over two hundred amps ahead of the the second place GooLoo at the same voltage of 9V. If memory serves correctly the GooLoo was about 150 amps ahead of the third place Schumacher at the same voltage. The NOCO GB70 will work but it’s really an insult at the performance per dollar you get out of it and in my testing it came in a distant last place finish and it’s definitely not worth the money. Also, as Todd pointed out, what the heck is up with the crappy little bag NOCO?
You can get a 12V Cig Lighter Socket for these that plugs via the jack on the jump part if it has one, or plugs into the same connector on the pack. No protection or fuse though, other than the fuse in the plug if any.
The problem I've found with those is that they seem to overpower my 12v appliances. I was wondering if it was better to use the lighter socket or use a usb to 12v adaptor. The adaptor is less efficient but it would seem it might be safer, both for the battery and the overpowered appliances.
@@thomaswilliams2273 They shouldn't overpower a device designed for a 12V socket, as the ones in your car are not generally regulated to 12V, they connected via an ignition relay and a fuse only normally so they output whatever the battery or battery+alternator voltage is which could be between 11-14.8V and this will output somewhere from 11-15V depending on charge.
A USB to 12V would generally be a noisy source of 12V but at least a constant voltage but a 5V@2.3A source is likely to give less than 800mA at 12V converted even if it's a very efficient buck converter.
I purchased another brand of jump pack a few weeks ago, it was hopeless because it demanded you had to connect to the vehicle within 30 seconds of plugging in the cable (if you didn't you had to wait iirc 15 minutes for it to reset) That was an insanely short time to make the connection for such a long reset if you failed. I promptly returned it to the shop and got my money back.
for a long time i have wanted to see a version of this that uses a standard 18v power tool battery. and which then limits the current to a discharge rate which is low enough not to ruin the power tool battery. so not a 'direct jump start'. but instead a rapid rescue partial charge. that is just enough to get the car battery back up high enough to crank the engine. after which point the alternator can take over responsibilities.
however i never see such a product or design anywhere. and perhaps that is due to it simply being uneconomical to include such a high current llimiter (we are talking on the order of tens of amps, perhaps around 40-60 amps typically, or as high as about 100a). so it is much cheaper to actually include a cheap chinese 3s pack configuration as shown here. so the double duty as a usb power bank is really quite a clever value add
so if 18v really is off the table... the i suppose we could achieve this objective more easily with the m12 power tool batteries (or even with a 14.4v battery platform might also be feasible). which might be cool, just to not have dead flat (discharged) lithium pack in the glove box for 2 years, for that 1 time when you actually desperately need to jump start a vehicle during winter time. so by having that 2nd purpose (either as a usb power bank or as a power tool battery pack). then that helps to keep the cells in daily use and therefore is a very good and practical safeguard against being caught out
@bigclive
Could we soon make a diy video of interior lights for cars.
Alot of people need them in warm White with and without CANBUS🙂
Thanks for all your videos over the years🙂👍🏼
The canbus feature on eBay bulbs is often just a load resistor.
@@bigclivedotcom
Hi clive yes i have seen some of them.
And i dont Think many of them is looking safe. And as a mechanic a have a couple times made burned wires on cars with Chines “canbus” bulbs.
You could make them safer for us with less heat i Bet🙂👍🏼
Thanks for answering🙂
The purpose of these starting dongles is, primarily, to guard against accidentally massively overcharging the car battery. If you connect it directly, it will start putting all it's got into the battery, which, if you leave it there for a while, is almost certain to overpressure. Therefore, the module watches the voltage it's connected to, and keeps the boost pack disconnected until it notices a big dip in the voltage (i.e. when you try starting) and turns on then. That's a very good strategy - in fact, when jump starting you're supposed to connect everything but the positive and have a helper that will connect it immediately before you turn the key (and disconnect it immediately after). I have a different type, with a mechanical relay which you can hear click when engaged, but the function should be the same (otherwise, there'd be no point in having MOSFETs here, right?)
The problem with all this is that it's overly cautious. I was working on my car once and accidentally discharged the battery (which was at its EOL anyway and is since replaced) so that you could just hear the solenoid engaging and the engine turning a bit, but it couldn't turn it over. Which is precisely the situation in which the boost pack is supposed to be used. But when I connected it, it would immediately indicate an error and refuse to work. The error was "false polarity or bad connection". Apparently, it was detecting too low a voltage from a battery (which, again, was not totally dead and only just below the level required to turn the engine over) and refusing to work. Luckily, there's an override - the button is not to activate the unit (it starts automatically as soon as it is powered), if you hold it down for a couple of seconds it will override the detection and just turn the unit on manually. Which is really stupid since the lower the battery is, the more current it will accept and the more easily it will overpressure. So I disconnected the ground (I have an easy-detach clamp there), attached the device to the lead, overrode the automatic in the dongle, started and then reconnected the battery while the car was running. This dongle is a very clever idea, but unfortunately executed very poorly and stupidly. I wonder how many non-technical people, who are unable to analyse the problem and work around it, are left stranded because of this stupidity, despite having enough charge in the booster unit which "doesn't work".
Well hopefully if you are stranded, you didn't throw out the manual, as something like this would usually be described within. They often come with carry cases to hold the leads and manual.
@@jaro6985 Mine didn't. The manual was next to useless iirc, very terse and not very clear. I essentially had to figure it out myself by trial and error and trying several ways of connecting the thing.
When I get a new device I usually put it through its motions to make sure I know how it works, but in this case it would not have helped me at all. With a charged battery it would either work properly or make no difference whatsoever, in which case I would not know if it worked or not, or would still not know how to use it with a drained battery. The only way to train the usage of it would be on a discharged battery, and I'm not doing that on purpose and reducing it's life just for that. You don't get to use it until you really need it, at which point it may be too late already.
The practice of using just a couple of LEDs with various blinking regimes to indicate various problems isn't very helpful either, particularly when the information about what it means isn't printed on the device itself.
Some crappy thing i have - but still spins vag 3.0 diesel with no problem. I still in amazement
Content free comment to drive engagement numbers for my favorite channels
It is amusing how so many of these packs end up abused because they're assumed to essentially be a battery replacement when a car battery has gone dead, cos really ones of this size are meant to be for a low battery situation to give enough of a current kick to get the engine turning over that first bit of compression, and nothing more, but people just go full crankerwanker and burn the packs out instead...
I work in a shop that sells these things. I always warn the customer that they are a one-shot device, needing to be fully charged between starting attempts. Relating the advertised capacity to the advertised output current, not one of the units is designed to provide its rated cranking current for more than a couple of minutes.
Have you looked at the jump packs that are just capacitors and can charge to jump ,from a dead car battery? I don't hear about them lately, although it sounds great.
My dad uses this exact one
Hi there clive, just seen your video on reusing disposable vape batteries. Me and my room mates tend to take them to recycling centres, but we currently have a couple hundred sitting in our living room. I thought id ask to see if youd be interested in me sending them to you so you can put them to better use?
I think I've seen a similar device on Diode's channel. IIRC, he (or someone before him) blew up the protection.
The Balance connector is for the charger to handle the actual balancing !
Mismatched diodes so that only one will carry the current and they will eventually cascade fail? Interesting choice...
Don't diodes tend to reduce their forward voltage the hotter they get? So yeah, the hot one would sink more and more of everyone's share of current until it dies. If they were mounted on a shared heatsink it would mitigate that a bit.
The fact that the output connector is directly wired to cells and before plugging in the jump leads there is nothing to protect the output makes it a bit of a risky gamble if you decide to carry it in a pocket or glovebox with keys, metal pens, etc.
It has a rubber cap over it.
@@bigclivedotcom And we all know that everybody always takes the time to close those when not in use. Just like they always take the utmost care when transporting and storing RC batteries with exposed terminals.
But that's a user problem, not a manufacturer problem.
Would it not make sense (electric at least) to include a large capacitor? It would cost more of course, but you could charge the capacitor at a rate more suitable for the battery chemistry and then use that to get the engine running. I've even seen a few people who have replaced their starter batteries with ultra capacitor banks with good results, with the trade-off of lower car off accessory capacity.
The diodes will probably be recovered used ones. Good video 👍🏻
Diodes seem to be identical (stps2045ct) but different production dates. Datasheet doesn't seem to have any information on the markings apart from the part number, which says the STPS2045CT is the TO-220AB package. Still a bit odd that they used 3 parts from what seem to be wildly different dates
the parts looked used to me
Cool..
the shock hazard comes from the charger witch connects to any 110 or 220 outlet.
lithium cells can start fire if punctured or damaged.
most mosfets have a current limit much lower because the package has a limit so there will often be lower than the semi conductor material.
i think most of the jump starters are intended to charge the battery up enough to allow you to start the car.
for example lets say you leave your lights on and drain the battery to the point where you cant start the car this is great for that.
you are really pushing the limits of these units trying to start a car from a completely dead battery that is dead because it is old or acid crust builds up on the terminals.
"i think most of the jump starters are intended to charge the battery up enough to allow you to start the car."
No, they put some charge into the battery, then their combined output starts the engine. Can take a minute or two.
Yeah that's exactly like several name brand ones I have taken apart... And they don't actually have enough oomph. I feel like mine also no longer hold a charge after a year or so even with little to no use. Mine actually has a LCD to display the charge in percent and it will say it's 100% than you unplug it and it says it's 70 some percent and if you plug in a USB device it immediately dies.
What's up with the 'modern art' on the silkscreen? It doesn't correspond to traces on the opposite side. Also, any thoughts on the unpopulated P2? Programming header for the microcontroller?
Probably a programming header.
Soooo.... Any chance to plug it to 12v and see if it really blow up those cells if it push those 12v to them? 😅
You mentioned there is no balancing, will the cells become unbalanced and end up swelling and becoming unusable?
Interesting little device, apart from the battery pack having an unfused high current output waiting for a curious kid shorting the connector with pliers or a piece of wire. Kinda scary.
That’s how ‘curious kids’ learn! 😳
Mine will also turn on the output for a totally flat battery if you hold in the start button instead of clicking it (not that I've successfully started my car when the battery is run down before the power jumper says it's drained)
Is that Marking on the battery correct at 29.6Wh at 3.7V or is that marking just for 1 of the 3 cells to output ~12V ?
29.6/3.7 = 8
How do these compare to those supercapacitor ones in real life situations? Supercapacitor ones are useless if the battery is flat, but then again, do the built-in battery ones perform any better? I image they'd drain pretty fast, that's if they even started at all, before the high-current cut-out kicked in. I have a 13 Ah one, but haven't needed to use it yet. When it's -15 C outside and the battery is dead, I'm not gonna get my hopes up with these. 😅
They work. You warm them up first by shoving them down your pants for a while... then clip on to the dead battery for a couple of minutes to bring it back to life, then fire up the engine, then unclip - and recharge immediately...
Hey Clive, what’s up with the silkscreen?