[REVEALED] How to easily run your caravan / RV's power points directly off your inverter!
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- Опубликовано: 29 июн 2020
- DISCLAIMERS:
1) This is for INFORMATION PURPOSES ONLY, so if you decide to do this you do so at your own risk. I feel this is safe on MY van because it has a fibreglass body and timber floor. This means it’s floating from earth, so there’s almost no way for current to get through you and back to earth and give you a shock. YOUR setup may be different, especially if the van has a metal body or there is a physical earth connection. If you choose to follow this, you acknowledge it is COMPLETELY AT YOUR OWN RISK, it may be against local regulations, and I take no responsibility if something goes wrong. While I have taken care to ensure it is as safe as reasonably possible, I make no guarantees that it is, or that a similar installation in a different vehicle will be safe. Make sure you watch all the way to the end for important safety information.
2) I understand best practice is to remove the original Residual Current Device (RCD) and replace it with a Residual Voltage Device (RVD). You may wish to consider this if you're planning to copy this.
OK that said... If you've got an inverter in your caravan or RV installed aftermarket, you've probably wished there was an easy way to have it run all the power points in your caravan, rather than just the one linked directly to the inverter.
Well there is! Your caravan / RV already has a power inlet which you use to power the van at caravan parks, so you just need a neat way to feed the output of your inverter into this inlet - and in this video that's exactly what you'll learn!
There are fancy, expensive, and probably better ways to achieve this outcome, using devices that automatically take care of this switching. However I wasn't interested in spending that sort of money and was looking for a simple but safe solution. I'm pretty sure this is it, and it certainly works.
An inverter takes 12 or 24V DC from your caravan / RV batteries and turns it into 110-240V AC, which is what you need to run normal household appliances.
Link to weatherproof box: www.bunnings.com.au/arlec-ip4... 
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Thats a fantastic idea. Just in the throws of collecting all the gear to set up my van with solar panels etc and was thinking of trying to get to the power supply wiring within the van and put in a selector switch but this is so much simpler. Cheers
Glad it was helpful Rod! Take all due care to ensure electrical safety, but this certainly worked for me!
Thanks Greg, I'm in the process of researching how to configure my inverter, thanks for your video as it's made up my mind. I'm going with an Enerdrive 2000w. The tips on the hotwater and battery charger are great . Thanks
Glad I could help! Thanks for watching!
What a brilliant idea. Just installed our invertor this week so will definitely give that a go.
Great! Just be careful it's done properly and you know what you're doing. While I believe this is safe, others may not agree and there are dedicated switching devices you can get installed by an electrician designed for this purpose.
Genius! Thanks from Dublin 🇮🇪
Glad it helped!
Great video. Just answered all my questions and ironically I have an Expanda!
Glad I could help! Yep Expandas are a great option if you want a bit of extra living space without adding to van size!
Thank you for this brilliant video and idea! I have just done this on our caravan and loving this set up 👍
Great to hear! Make sure you're aware of the risks with a job like this and that the job's done safely. Hope it works well for you!
yes got all the safety fuses installed on the solar and batteries for protection 👍
Thanks just what i was looking for .
Glad I could help! Stay safe though - you need to have your wits about you, and all work is done at your own risk.
You are so brilliant.... you have made my night ...thank you!!!
My pleasure glad it was useful! Stay safe though!
@@TheMusingGreg Been down to Bunnings this morning, got the containers to start the process. notice you do not have AC DC Charger in system...have you added one?
Do you mean a DC-DC charger? If so yes I have one which was installed since this video (AC-DC charger would be the factory mains battery charger which came with the van which is installed too).
You could install a Caravan 240vac outlet and run a small extension lead from this outlet to the Caravan inlet.The caravan outlet does have a flip cover for protection.
Hi mate, yep you could install a separate outlet and wire the inverter up to that instead of doing what I've done; but then you have to have the short extension cord stored around somewhere. The way I did it the cord's permanently connected to the inverter and conveniently located nearby without getting in the way. It also means you don't have to cut through the side wall of the van to install a second power point in a prominent location. But you could do it either way for sure.
Greg, Thanks for the video. I’m looking to run an inverter in my canopy and run a few powerpoints off it. Could you explain how you go from the 240 plug into the back of the powerpoint. Thanks
Hi Charlie, thanks for the comment. The way I've done it I've not fiddled with any of the van's 240V wiring, because while I know what I'm doing I'm not licenced to modify any of that wiring. If you've got an inverter with a 240V 3 pin output, the simplest thing would be to plug a power board into it and run your devices from that. Otherwise you can do what I did in this video and run the output of the inverter into your van's power input. I would not recommend hard-wiring the inverter into the back of power points as it can be a death trap if you get the wiring wrong.
Very smart mate 👍
Glad it was helpful! Do it safely though if you do, our van has a fibreglass body so there's no risk of a shock. Aluminium walls could be a different story.
I had that high pressure hose inlet in the Jayco fail spraying water all around the other stuff in mine which looks the same as yours. I've moved the inlet from on the side to under the van close to the kitchen. It only went into that spot (the thinner black hose and straight out again anyway) because of the connection on the low pressure tank fill panel.
They say electricity and water don't mix, well, water, electricity, MDF and pine certainly shouldn't mix.
Interesting, I've not heard of that happening although it's only a plastic fitting so that's quite foreseeable. Sounds like you came up with a good solution!
A great idea that works for you.
Question if ok.
What size cable you use from the battery to inverter?
Do you have a circuit breaker or fuse between the battery to inverter, if yes size?
Thanks in anticipation.
G'day Steve, thanks for the comment. The cables I use from the battery to the inverter are the thick ones the Giandel inverter came with - check out ruclips.net/video/JYKiR7f_UxY/видео.html which would show them. I can't recall their exact thickness but they're pretty thick.
I don't have any fuse or circuit breaker between the battery and the inverter. It would have to be enormous though - from a 12V supply, this 1200W inverter would be drawing 100A, and it can supposedly draw up to 2400W peak (which is 200A). In this situation you could go for a 250A fuse if you can find one but I don't think it's necessary. I'm preparing a short series on things like current, power and voltage, so please subscribe if you think that might be useful (the info in that video would help you calculate fuse sizes).
Cheers,
Greg
Having your inverter power charge the batteries would work is wouldn't do any physical harm but of course in producing the 240 volts in the inverter you incur losses and the same is true of your battery charger therefore even without anything turned on you would flatten your battery over time.
What type of batteries have you got and how many do you have
I have been thinking of doing similar to what you have done.
Yep that's spot on Steven. I've inadvertently had the charger connected when running the inverter and it works OK, just draws more power and flattens batteries quicker. I've got 2x100Ah AGM batteries in parallel.
That’s a great idea
Glad it was helpful!
Hi I have been looking at doing the same in my van. looking into it more it's not safe due to RVD and no safety switch in case of a short to earth. You can get an ampfibian adaptor from bunnings for about $124 cheep a safe
Thanks for the comment Frank, and I appreciate your consideration.
I'm not sure how an Ampfibian adapter would help this particular situation. As far as I can tell it's just a 10A-15A adapter which incorporates a 10A circuit breaker and a RCD. There's no mention of RVD capabilities.
My inverter can only deliver 1200W (5A) continuous (it's rated 2400W peak but I've never managed to get more than about 1500W (~6A) out of it probably due to insufficient current from the batteries / wiring), so my power supply is physically incapable of delivering more than 6A into the 240V van input.
As far as a short to earth, let me say upfront that I am not a qualified electrician, but I do have a electronics qualifications and some knowledge of the theory of 240V systems, and from my non-expert analysis I can't see exactly where my setup would fail. But this is how I see it.
The only way you can get an electric shock is if there's a path through your body from one voltage to another (in this case from Active to Neutral or Earth). If either the input or the output of your body is isolated from one side of the supply you don't have a complete electric circuit and you can't get a shock. This is why birds sitting on power lines don't get electrocuted - their bodies might be at 415V relative to earth but they're completely safe provided they don't touch a neighbouring line at the same time (or someone doesn't run a wire from their beak to the ground!). As I see it, the whole caravan is floating relative to earth - it's more like a double-insulated appliance than a house where the whole slab under your feet is in direct contact with the earth. The only contact points to earth are rubber tyres, rubber jockey wheel and plastic feet under the legs which are all insulated. You could be unlucky and have dirt or water running over the legs which could connect those to ground, but even then it will only link the chassis to earth - inside the van you're standing on a wooden platform which is insulated from the chassis, so if you got 240V on you inside the van the only way I can see 240V getting back to earth is if you touched the kitchen sink which is earthed. The caravan has a RCD of its own, however that's unlikely to trigger anymore than the RCD within the Ampfibian if there's a fault in the caravan because nothing inside the van is connected to earth.
But even all that is only relevant if the power being fed into the van comes from an outside source which is earthed down to the physical earth (e.g. at a caravan park). If the power is being generated inside the van by an inverter and there's no path to earth, it doesn't matter if something touches the ground - 240V has no natural affinity to soil just for the sake of it, it only happens because the Neutral line is usually tied to Earth at the meter box of your premises. So I cannot see how you'd get a shock unless you touch the Active with one part of your body and (in my case) the sink with another (as the earth terminal on my inverter is connected to the van's earth which is in turn tied to the sink).
Again, I am not an electrician so anyone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!
🎉You nailed the question on my mind for days! Thanks. My 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter arrives tomorrow. We have 100 AH AGM hooked to 170 watt panel. The inverter only has one outlet. We have the same fridge as you. Can I basically mimic your setup?
I can't see why not. Take careful note of the disclaimers though and make sure it's safe. A better way to do it is really to use a transfer switch like this www.ebay.com.au/itm/166545709954. However I used the method in this video for a couple of years with no problems.
Hi Greg, thanks for all your help, I bought a 600-1200 watt inverter and it's trips out sometimes when the fridge motor starts up, but just ordered a 1000-2000 watt inverter, hopefully that fixes the problem, just wondering how did you wire up the inverter on/off switch? My inverter didn't come with that. Just the switch on the inverter it self.
No worries Dean, glad to help.
What wattage is your fridge? If yours has a motor there will be a spike in current as the motor starts up so you may need more than it says.
I made sure I got one with the remote on/off switch so it could be mounted out of sight and activated remotely. It just plugs into a RJ12 port on the side of the inverter. I'd recommend seeing if you can get an inverter with the remote included, or contact Giandel and see if they'll sell you the remote separately. Should be possible. Otherwise you'll need physical access to the inverter to push the start button.
@@TheMusingGreg Hey Greg, thanks for getting back to me, it's a standard bar fridge in my caravan, not sure of the wattage , I wished I would have asked you this question before I bought my second inverter, as I noticed I doesn't have the remote switch either but I just noticed if I had payed a bit more and got the 1200 watt inverter it comes with the remote switch, l might just resell the inverter when it arrives and buy the 1200 watt inverter with the remote switch. Cheers
Great idea :) Why not use a selector 3 way power switch so that you can never have the battery charger on while the inverter is feeding power?
Yep that would be another way of doing it for sure!
I'm looking at getting a kings 3000w inverter, at the back of the inverter it just has a positive and negative connection, this might sound like a stupid question but it positive inverter to positive battery & negative inverter to negative battery not negative to van earth??
Not a silly question but yes you're right. The van earth may or may not be connected to the battery earth but just run the black wire back to the battery negative (and positive to positive) and you'll be good.
I’ve done the same. It works great, have you checked that your van Rcd trips if using a fault occurs. I’ve found it wont unless there is a earth neutral bond on the ac.
I haven't but I don't think it would for the reason you said. About the only thing on the van that could be earthed is the sink which my inverter is earthed to - everything else is floating -wooden floor and rubber tyres.
Exactly Mitch. This setup creates a floating 240Volt supply. As in no "earth" to ground to allow the RCD (residual CURRENT device) to sense a current flow and to trip the RCD. The new device recommended for generators and Inverters is the RVD (residual VOLTAGE device). This device trips at 40 Volts. Not yet law but will eventually be.
Test your inverter output with a socket tester. If it has a "floating" earth the tester will show "no earth" and your rcd will not function if connected in this way.
Hi great vidio just asking I have a aircon on roof and wife runs her hairdryer so what size batter will I need and once battery gets flat how do I charge it?
Thanks for the questions.
1) For the first question on battery size, it depends HOW LONG you want to be able to run the hairdryer and aircon; but work on about 100Ah battery capacity per hour of airconditioner run time [Here's why: Most airconditioners draw around 6A at 240V when they're running, which is about 1500W (240Vx6A). So running continuously for an hour at full power (which they don't tend to do mind you), a 12V battery would need a capacity of about 125Ah (1500W/12V). Allowing for some compressor off-time within that hour, 100Ah would get you around an hour of run time].
2) For the second question regarding charging, you'd need to charge the battery from either 1) a 240V lead plugged into the power inlet such as at a caravan park (presuming your van has a 240V battery charger included which most in the last 25 years would have); 2) the 12V input from your vehicle if you have an Anderson plug fitted, or 3) a solar panel either on the roof of the van or a portable one. However if you're going to put a lithium battery into your van to run power-hungry appliances like an air conditioner, you'll need to be able to push enough current into the battery in a day's driving to fully charge it, which will require a high-current DC-DC charger.
These are fairly general answers as there are many variables as to what will be the best solution for you. A caravan auto electrician would be able to give specific advice for your van and power needs once they have all the information needed, but hopefully this points you in the right direction.
Cheers,
Greg
Thanks, I was just about to test my system - I have an aditional RCD inline - however I would have forgotten about the hotwater service...Also, I was told and have read that I needed an RCD because I'm taking 240 10A into a 15A wiring... and that the RVD's are required for new RS2 inverters because they are double insulated and the erth pin in the GPO is not connected to the chassis. My inverter doesn't seem to be double insulated and needs to be earthed to the caravan shassis, so i'm thinking it's ok
You could be right Peter, I'm not really too sure on those things so I'd be checking with an electrician. The 12V -ve terminal of the tow vehicle and the internal batteries are connected to the caravan's chassis but I'm not sure how it goes also connecting a 240V earth to the same chassis.
@@TheMusingGreg I'm just about full of info now my brain hurts. I read now that the new standard (RS2) inverters don't have the earth pin connected. but. mine is 2015 standard and needs an earth wire. so,...I'm happy with using the set up I have. I have so many safety fail safes i'm confident it will be ok. .Thanks
@@PHancock11 Cool good luck mate!
Hey mate, nice simple and easy set up. What batteries do you run? Lithium or conventional AGMs? Also, how big are your solar panels? Thanks
Hi mate, I have 2x100Ah AGM batteries in parallel which get charged by solar blankets. As I've been reviewing solar blankets I've had a few different types but mostly I was using a 200W Kings unit and a 150W Redarc unit.
@@TheMusingGreg thanks mate, similar to mine. Good to know. 👍
What size is the inverter and how many batteries are you running..? do you have solar panels to charge batteries, or they charge only via mains?
The inverter is 1200W, see ruclips.net/video/JYKiR7f_UxY/видео.html
I'm running 2x105 Ah batteries in parallel. I charge then via the Redarc DC-DC charger while driving, and a solar blanket while we're camped. I don't use the mains charger that often as we usually free camp. The DC-DC charger is brilliant and the batteries are usually full after a day of driving even if they're empty at the start. Here's my review on it if you haven't seen it:
ruclips.net/video/a3uE9EKA3mA/видео.html
How about using 15A lead, but just shave the bottom male pin down so that it fits into the Inverter 240V socket?
You could, but in my situation the system can't output more than 10A anyway.
I like it 👍
Cheers!
Do you use lithium batteries in your caravan?, I just bought a 135AH AGM battery but I'm worried it will give off fumes inside the caravan especially when charging it, it says on the battery "don't recharge in a sealed container" so I thought I can't charge it inside the battery box inside the caravan, I'm starting to think I should have bought a lithium battery, I'm getting confused
Nah you'll be right. Mine are both AGM batteries. They would be referring to not charging it in a 100% airtight box, and if you've got a battery box inside your van it wouldn't have needed to be airtight. Lead-acid batteries give off small amounts of fumes when charging and these need to be able to escape, however I believe AGM batteries give off way less that wet lead-acid batteries as you have in a vehicle, which is why they're sealed up units anyway.
I'm thinking of doing this myself, with the battery fully charged how long do you get before the battery goes flat? I know this question is like how long is a piece of string but I'm trying to get some ideas, cheers
Hi Dean,
Mate that's correct, it totally depends on your setup and what you're running from it. For example a 1x 50Ah battery are running a 240V TV, fridge and charging laptops is going to last a lot less than 2x150Ah batteries running just 12V devices.
For what it's worth, we have 2x100Ah batteries, LED lighting and a gas fridge, so we only use the inverter for charging laptops and a dustbuster vacuum cleaner. If we weren't topping up the batteries in between (which we almost always do), we would probably get two, maybe three days' use max from the batteries.
Hope this helps!
Greg
@@TheMusingGreg Hi Greg, thanks so much for the reply, I really appreciate it, I'm thinking of doing a set up with solar panels recharging the battery, I'm new to all this caravan stuff, I have a bit learn, just wondering would it be worth paying the extra for a 2000 or more watt inverter so you could run your microwave and hot water?
@@Djr67 Hi Dean,
I wouldn't try to run hot water through an inverter. A gas hot water system would be far more efficient, and most caravan hot water services have a gas heating system (as well as a 240V when you're at a caravan park). Anything that generates heat will draw a lot of current (blow heaters, toasters, kettles etc), so since you have gas onboard and gas creates lots of heat when burnt, it's the best thing to use for heating when possible.
For the microwave, possibly so if you want to do that but it's a question of whether the batteries and wiring can supply enough current that quickly. 2000W is 167A (Current = Power / Voltage), which is an awful lot of current. It's the sort of current a starter motor might draw. It would be possible if you've got a couple of batteries wired up in parallel and with very thick wiring, but you'd be best to talk to an expert to work out exactly what's required. I went with the 1200W mainly because it was the biggest I could fit in the space I had available, and was happy to forego the microwave (we've travelled for 15 months without really missing it).
Cheers,
Greg
hey mate how you going, doing my own electrical system right now and wondering how you wired a power point from the inverter which is essentially another power point? is there a specific cable to do this? cheers heaps!
Hi mate, firstly I'd always recommend getting an electrician to do wiring if you're not sure what you're doing. But that said, no it's not a special cable - it's basically just an extension cord with a 15A socket on one end instead of the standard 10A socket.
My inverter has two standard 240V power outlets, so I simply bought a 3m extension cord from Bunnings, cut the socket end off, poked the now-plugless cable through the hole as shown, and then wired up a new 15A socket on the bare end once it was outside the van. So you end up with an extension cord cable with a standard 3 pin plug going into one of the 240V outlets on the inverter, and the other end has a 15A socket (instead of the standard 10A socket) which plugs into the van's power inlet. Of course it's critical that whoever wires up the plug makes sure it's wired correctly otherwise you could be in a lot of strife!
Theoretically, a 15A socket should be on a 15A cable. However I know my inverter can only provide 1200W (5A), so there is never going to be more than 5A going through that cable. If you had an inverter which could provide more than 2400W you would want to use a 15A cable.
Good luck, and stay safe!
Greg
@@TheMusingGreg thanks heaps mate, really really appreciate it! massive massive help!!!
No problems mate, good luck with the work!
Greg
Hi Greg great idea except your lead from the inverter to the caravan input has gone from normal at one end to a 15amp at the other is that legal. Ken
Technically probably not legal Ken, but consider WHY it would be illegal to have a cord with a 10A plug supplying a 15A socket. It's obviously because the supply is only designed to deliver 10A but the caravan may draw up to 15A which could lead to overloading the supply. In my case, the inverter can only deliver 10A (2400W) peak (in practice the batteries can't deliver enough current to supply that anyway). So my supply can never deliver more than 10A anyway, so there is no way it could ever supply 15A. The overload protection would kick in before it got anywhere near 15A. So in my situation it would be impossible for the caravan to draw more than 10A through that cable which is why in my case I'm comfortable with that setup.
You could add a 10amp - 15amp RCD unit just to be on the safe side. That would protect your inverter, as it does when you hook up your van at home into the 10amp outlet. In that case it protects your home circuit.
I'm looking into doing something similar but from what I've read your rcd won't work off your inverter.
It needs to run through an rvd.
Hi Justin you could well be right on that. I wasn't in a position to test that but I've heard of RVD's being useful. I'd recommend investigating that for sure!
When you plug into mains you get your earth from the supply if your van is wood and fibreglass where is it made ? I’m commenting on Australian vans most are aluminium. I have been through this and was told if I touched the van whilst on the ground I could cause a circuit to be made. I wanted to do almost exactly that you are trying to do.
I was told it is something to do with a MEN and I would need a change over switch. I’m not a sparky btw but what I was told makes cense.
Yeah it's a good question. As far as I can see the van is floating from earth when the power points are being fed from an inverter, ie there is no connection to physical earth, as you don't drive an earth-wired stake into the ground when you pull up for the night. With this inverter install I tied the earth post on the inverter to the caravan's earthing system, but the only metal thing inside the van that was tied to was the kitchen sink so it's not doing a whole lot. My van was fibreglass so it didn't matter as much.
As far as I can see, if the inverter is generating its own 240 volts on board there's no link to physical earth. So even if that somehow got to the body of the van, even if you touch the body of the van while standing on the ground there's no link to physical earth back from the inverter, so no reason for the current to flow through you.
Note that this is just my opinion, I'm not an electrician, but I'm just thinking through the logic and I can't see how that would cause a problem.
A caravan doesn't have a MEN. A change over switch really would be best, or an inverter with an automatic transfer switch, but that's still doesn't solve the problem of what to do with the earth!
The system you have created can sometimes mean the RCD won't trip if the earth is floating. Needs an earth stake but possibly still not safe or legal .
Thanks for the comment Don. As I've thought more about this I think that's actually true even if you had a mains lead plugged into a GPO. As far as I can tell, the whole caravan is floating relative to earth - inside there's a wooden floor, and below the chassis you've got rubber tyres, plastic feet below the corner steadies and a rubber jockey wheel as the only contact points with the ground, all of which are insulators. The only thing accessible inside the van that's earthed is the sink, so the only way you could get a shock as far as I can tell would be to touch the active with one hand and the sink with the other, a pretty unlikely combination. If you're just standing on the floor, as far as I can see there's no path for the electricity to get through you and to earth.
Thoughts?
unless you are getting in and out of the van and holding a metal handle or step?@@TheMusingGreg
Can I charge the battery with the solar panels and run the inverter at the same time?
Yep absolutely. The solar input to the batteries is a completely separate process to the inverter. Just make sure the 240V battery charger is turned off otherwise you'll be using battery power to run the inverter to power the charger to charge the batteries! The power will just go around in a loop and waste power.
@@TheMusingGreg sorry for all the questions, so the solar is connected to the battery terminals same terminals as the inverter?
@@Djr67 No hassles mate, ask away👍. Yep that's correct: solar blanket -> solar regulator -> battery terminals; and battery terminals -> inverter input. You might think this means the regulator output is connected directly to the inverter input but it's not - having the battery sitting there on the same set of terminals is what makes the difference. The regulator is expecting a battery there, and the battery acts like a giant sponge and can absorb pretty well whatever the regulator throws at it. Whereas the inverter will only be drawing as much current as the load needs, which may only be an amp or two, compared to the battery being able to absorb 15-20A if the regulator could deliver that. Something would die quickly if you connected the regulator output directly to the inverter input. The battery has to be there to smooth out the fluctuations in current and deliver a constant output into the inverter.
Putting a 15amp plug on the end of a 10 lead is illegal in most states. What did you do?
The reason it's illegal is because most domestic 10A power circuits are protected by a 16A circuit breaker, which means a 10A cable could potentially deliver up to 16A if it was connected to a device which could draw more than 10A (like a caravan).
The difference with my setup is that my inverter is only capable of delivering 10A anyway, so regardless of what plug's on the end I'm never going to get more than 10A flowing through my 10A lead. This is why I'm comfortable with this setup.
Does the extension cord need to be 15amp plug??
The socket on the outside of the vehicle has to be as the power inlet into your van will be a 15A plug. On the other end you'll just need a standard 10A plug to go into your inverter. The simplest way to do this is to get a right angle extension cord from Bunnings and a separate 15A socket. Cut the 10A socket off and replace it with the 15 amp socket.
@@TheMusingGreg thankyou very much mate
@@marksmith9303 No problems mate, take care.
Hi, Are you still running this same setup? Looks like something I want to do to my caravan :)
Yep been running this setup for the past two years, still working great! The only problem I had was the cable cover came open once on the Oodnadatta Track and the cable fell down and got pulled under the wheel and ripped out of the inverter! Thankfully no damage to anything but the cable and cover. Apart from that all good
Would you do better installing an outdoor socket under the caravan floor and using a jump lead (or the hookup cable) to link it to the caravan inlet.
Get a qualified 240v electrician to fit a relay to switch over from external power to inverter power, and run your inverter to the relay. Just did one works fine. No plugs required.
How much did it cost if you don't mind sharing? I didn't do this originally because I was only going to keep the van for 6 months.
@@TheMusingGreg Hi Greg, I'm an electrician in Perth, Relay was $132, $33 for power lead which you have, $15 for 4 pole load centre. Plus labour depending on you van 3-4 hours prob less the $500 for labour.
I would have to look at it to be more definite on price. Hope this helps.
@@shanek105 Cool thanks mate. I had heard around $600 which sounds to be about on the money.
@@shanek105 mate i have a van with an inverter i have installed. the inverter has an ATS built into it so i have the run out of the inverter to a power point.... when shore power is plugged in the inverter cuts out. my question is how to i run the inverter power lead internally into the back of the shore power to make all the 240v power outles in the van live off the inverter?
Hi Brayden, in Australia you need to get a qualified 240v electrician to fit a relay to switch over from external power to inverter power, and run your inverter to the relay. Just did one works fine. No plugs required.@@braydenwest6178
I bought a camper where the last owner had created a port inside specifically for wiring an inverter directly to the inner AC wiring. However, now that I see your video I am realizing that his hack has likely skipped the input breaker box and thus is an unsafe method.
Yeah I was a bit unsure about that sort of thing and figured simply plugging it into the normal inlet would be the safest method. It also means there's no chance of being on park power and accidentally firing up the inverter and having two non-phase-synced 240V supplies running into each other (i.e.bang!). It means too that the input runs through the breaker, but I don't know how effective a RCD would really be with power from an inverter though.
@@TheMusingGreg Is there a safe way to test & see what would happen? I'm not even sure what the bad event would be that would cause a trip. A short circuit in the AC wiring?
@@surfreadjumpsleep The biggest problem I see is that when the inverter starts up, its AC supply is almost certainly going to be out of phase with the caravan park's AC supply. Both will be roughly 240V 50Hz, but the 50Hz sinewaves won't be in phase - that is to say, when one is at the peak of its waveform, the other will be somewhere else in its waveform. So you'll get a lot of current going from one supply straight into the other, and neither supply is designed to absorb power, they're designed to deliver power. The inverter almost certainly will be the weakest link. If you're lucky some protection might kick in but since they're not designed for that type of situation it's more likely the inverter will be damaged. You could also knock out a circuit breaker in the caravan park or worse.
So all round it's a bad idea to have two independent power generators driving into each other! :D
@@TheMusingGreg I was thinking about this.. instead of routing outside and then back inside the camper, I think what I'll do is cut the connection from the external to the breaker box. Then I'll make an input plug to the breaker box. Either the line to the outside, or a line from the inside inverter will go to the breaker box input.
@@surfreadjumpsleep Yep I think that would work just as well, as it'll make sure there is only one power input to the system. I mean if you were going to get fancy about it you could have them both hard-wired in and have a break-before-make 240V 15A changeover switch which switches from one supply to another. There are other solutions too but either way you want to make sure you only have one supply connected to the van at a time.
I was told the cheater lead you made (15amp one end 10amp other) are against the standards and not allowed.
I do what you have done only use an amphibian adapter to make it legal and I have a Electric Power Cord Cable hatch in side of van just under 15amp inlet instead of going through floor.
With the isolated inverter the rcd in caravan does not work so I have had fitted an rvd for safety several years ago.
There is a lead you can get with an rvd in it so all is safe in the van.
Sounds fine. Technically you're right that a 10A plug on a 15A lead would be against the law, and that law is in place to prevent overloading of cables only designed to carry 10A. As I mentioned my inverter is a 1200W unit, which means it can only put out 5A - so there's no way the lead will be even carrying its rated 10A, let alone 15A! That's why I was happy to do it here - following the principle of the law, not the letter.
@@TheMusingGreg just a question/observation. Isn't 1200w ÷ 12v = 10a? If it's a 12v system.
@@stevecrowe176 that lead is on the 240v (output) side of the inverter so 1200W/240V=5A. (And on the 12v (input) side you'd have 100A, not 10A :-) and that's why the battery->inverter cable has to be that chunky... and probably has a CB or fuse inline somewhere)
That is illegal in Australia
Officially you may be right. But functionally it's no different to running your van from a caravan park's power supply other than the earthing side of it. As far as I can tell, with this setup, even if you touched the Active pin you wouldn't get a shock (unless you were touching the kitchen sink, in which case the inverter's protection should cover you), because the rest of the van is isolated from the inverter, so there's no path back to the Neutral side of the inverter to complete the circuit. That said I would not want to try it to be sure but that's how it looks to me. In an ideal world I would pay a pile of money to an electrician to wire in a fancy auto-switching setup.
As I mentioned, I'm not recommending anyone does this, I'm just showing how I did it and mentioning the risks and other options. Any modifications people make is on their own head and up to their own decision.
@@TheMusingGreg It does not have a MEN link in the caravan or the inverter. The MEN link is a critical safety function that is installed at the switchboard in your home or at a caravan part etc. The inverter does not require this when plugging in an extension cord or power board directly to the device. When you leave the relative safety of cord/cables with moulded plugs and enter the power point wiring which has cables in the walls and GPO's with exposed terminals, then you enter the higher risk area. The RCD is there to protect this setup, but will only operate when connected to mains power.
Thanks for the insight mate, that's helpful information to know. Doing a risk assessment on it as I write, when I first pulled a power point off in my van (Jayco) I was surprised to find an insulated flat socket on the end of each length of internal 240v wiring which connects to an insulated on the back of the power point. So there is actually no exposed wiring or terminals even on the back of a power point. You'd have to go another layer deeper and dismantle these connectors to actually get to the 240V wiring. So I think the risk in my case is pretty low, even though I appreciate it's not a perfect setup. But I appreciate your perspective and will mull over future plans with this setup.
Cheers,
Greg
@@TheMusingGreg I paid about $400 to have it done by an electrician who installed a circuit breaker plus a double pole switch that activates all GPO’s plus the aircon but excludes the HWS and the battery charger (else we would disappear up our backside). So it is park power or inverter power.
Cool thanks that's not too excessive I guess.
I notice you've got a microwave connected to the 1200W inverter. How curious that the inverter later failed!! I wonder how many other things overloaded the inverter too.... it sounds like your fridge might be the first example... You discuss knowing how to use things "happily off the inverter".... but that doesn't mean every person in your van knows and will remember peculiarities.
Hooking the inverter into the caravan power circuitry is ingenious... and potentially lethal, but you know that... Hopefully viewers will also understand this.
It would be pretty sad if (for example) someone standing on the outside of the van touched any bare metal (doorknobs, window linings, aluminium cladding etc) and dropped dead.
240V wiring and water lines in the same place is deliciously exciting.... when when when will vibrations split that plastic water line!
Caravan wiring can be notoriously bodgey. On a new van, one wrong screw/rivet in cladding installation for example.
On an older van, one wrong screw/rivet in cladding maintenance/repair... and a million other things.
I hope things are going well for you, and continue to do so.... but this really is a video and technique you shouldn't be sharing.
It's one thing to do a quick bit of DIY electrical of you know what you are doing and comply with rules.... but quite another to do DIY wiring in a manner utterly illegal in any state of australia. (Ironic that you didn't want to play around with caravan wiring, but did the 15A plug "trick".)
PS... will everyone know that the electrical safeguards to avoid death in say...a caravan park power system (which is what should plug into the van's 15A socket), and a stand alone inverter.... are rather different?
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your concern, but there are a number of things in your comments which aren't relevant to our situation.
The inverter is rated for 1200W continuous and 2400W peak, so our 1200W microwave should be within its abilities. However we've never used the inverter to run the microwave because the batteries can't deliver the 100A the inverter would need to output 1200W - the batteries are the limitation here, not the inverter. As for the fridge, it's a gas one so we've never needed to run it from the inverter, but if we did it only consumes 180W.
The bottom line is that our inverter is far from overloaded. The most we've drawn from it has been about 300W when charging three laptops at the same time, which is only 1/4 of its rated output.
Yes there are potentially risks with this method, which I explain in the description, but touching door handles or windows isn't one of them because our van has a fibreglass skin and plastic door handles. Any metal parts like the door are connected to a timber / composite frame so it's all isolated electrically. In fact the only way you could get a shock is by physically touching the Active and Neutral of a power point at the same time, or by connecting the Active to the kitchen sink and then touching the sink plus the Neutral. You won't get a shock through the floor because that's all plywood and in any case the whole van is floating relative to earth - there is no return path from the body of the van back to the Neutral / Earth of the inverter.
This method may not be appropriate for everyone, or for other types of vans, but I am simply showing what I did. I am not recommending anyone else does this, and I say as much in the disclaimer.
As far as the 15A plug 'trick', I've mentioned this to others who've said the same thing. This is where it's important to understand the principle behind the rules, rahter than just blindly follow a rule without understanding why it's there. The 10A and 15A plugs are simple ways of preventing 15A being pulled through wiring and connectors only designed for 10A. My inverter is only a 1200W inverter, which means at 240V it can only deliver 5A (240x5=1200). So not even 10A, let alone 15A! So even if we had some bizarre situation where some ignoramus tried to run 2x 7.5A heaters off the inverter at the same time, the inverter would simply shut down immediately. If they kept trying they might eventually damage the inverter, but they're never going to pull 15A through the 10A wiring which is exactly what the wiring rules are there to prevent. A dodgy 10A-15A cable which plugs into a mains 10A socket is a completely different situation to what I've done, because in that situation the 10A socket is usually protected by a 16A breaker, so it can absolutely feed 15A if something in the van called for it. That's why those cables are, and should be, illegal. But my situation is different because the supply (the inverter) simply cannot deliver 15A or anything close to it.
Again, I thank you for your concern, but these are all factors I considered when deciding to use this method, and it's why the disclaimers tells people it's for information purposes only and that it may not be suitable for their situation.
You made a point of showing the microwave and the fridge in your video, only to say you don't use the inverter for these because there isn't the required power from the battery. Hypocritical????
This is illegal you must have an RVD safety chord to earth it properly It is dangerous!!
The issue is that the whole chassis is floating relative to earth, and almost everything in the van is insulated too. It might be different if this was a metal-bodied van, but it's fibreglass with timber floors and timber cupboards. The sink is the only thing that's metal, and that's earthed to the inverter anyway.
I’m a bit late to the party here, but where’s your safety? No RCD or RVD ! Not sure you’d be happy to see your family running off your invertor. It’s a false perception that invertors are safe because they run off 12v.
All comments welcome mate. The 12V side of it, as you say, is irrelevant and wasn't a consideration. The thing here is that the whole van has a fibreglass / composite skin, all the wall surfaces are timber and so is the floor. The only thing that's earthed is the kitchen sink, so the only way you could get a shock would be if you leaned against the sink while sticking your finger into the Active. A pretty unlikely proposition I'd think.
@@TheMusingGregit’s entirely up to you the risks you are happy to accept, but giving electrical hook up demonstrations on you tube is another matter. I take it from your reply that your van isn’t equipped with earth an leakage device. There are more ways to get electrocuted than you suggest. Plugging into power at a caravan park you will most likely be covered by their RCD. Plugging in an invertor like you have gives no protection. I have to work on caravan electrics for a living and unsafe DIY practices are a constant concern. My
family like me to come home at night. Sorry to pull you up on this but encouraging others to circumvent Standards is risky. I hope you make changes to your system.
@@wozzatherockdog1778 Thanks for your comment mate. It does have an RCD but as you'd know that's not going to help, but it doesn't have a RVD. I'm not trying to encourage people to go around standards, I understand they're there for a reason. But I have a background in electronic engineering and, to date, no-one has been able to explain how I could get a shock with this setup. I am willing to be further educated. But I've got a pretty clear disclaimer in the description, and I certainly can't vouch for the setups other people might have, so I'm not encouraging people to do it as such, just showing them how I've done it.
@@TheMusingGreg there can be a problem with having two appliances that have a three pin plug on the bench at the same time as an example. Part the reason we always use double pole power points in caravans. Also a damaged cable can be another potential problem. Always a chance wires can rub through and contact say the metal chassis then run into gas pipes etc. As you know electricity is always looking to make a circuit. As much as we think we know it’ll want to catch us out in a way we’ve never thought of.
Sorry but you really need to get some professional advice from a qualified 240v electrician. This is so dangerous!!! You cannot just simply connect a battery to supply 240v through caravan mains. You're not protected for voltage drops & It is not earthed properly. Heaven forbid if you get a leak in your van the power doesnt cut off from the inverter. People also do the same thing by connecting their generators to the van, its really unsafe. You need at least an RVD safe connection this automatically cuts off power to the van if it detects any issues. 240v power is not something you want to mess with. It's fine to pass a lead from your inverter to an appliance, but within caravan wiring it's more complicated
Please talk to an electrician & please remove this video as people copy these thinking it's safe & really it's just dangerous.
Thanks for your concern. The floor of our caravan is plywood, the caravan has a timber frame with composite fibreglass wall panels, and the whole van is sitting on rubber tyres; so I cannot see any path to physical earth. The only part of the body of the van which is metal is the kitchen sink and this is connected to the earth of the inverter.
I was cautious when I first had the idea, but I cannot see a path for current back to the earth unless I was to poke my finger into the Active and then touch the sink with my other hand.
Several folks have expressed concern about this, but so far no-one has been able to explain the conditions under which I'd actually get a shock. However if you can explain this please do so as I'm not interested in handing out false information.
@@TheMusingGreg I have done this, 400amp lithium and 3000w inverter, Best thing ever :)
@@mystq101 Glad it was helpful mate! Stay safe!
simply add in a RVD lead as a precaution but im not sure you can run a RVD if your van has a RCD fitted like vans have had for the last 25 years (MEN wiring)
@@HWAFFI Yep that would be a good addition if it will work.
This is dangerous and incorrect.
Dangerous - potentially, if you don't know what you're doing or you get a very unusual fault. Hence the safety disclaimer I provide in the description.
Incorrect - in what way? I've been using this system successfully for the past two years so I'd argue it's not only correct, but functional and effective.
@@TheMusingGreg are you in Australia? Do you know about the MEN system we use? This configuration would either provide no MEN or two MEN in some scenarios both of which are illegal and dangerous. Again I’m only assuming because I haven’t seen a wiring diagram.
Hi yep I'm broadly familiar with that system, my background's in electronics not electrical but in my training I had a fair exposure to electrical wiring and systems.
The only metal surface inside the caravan is the kitchen sink. If this somehow became connected to the Active and was touched, there is still no path to physical earth because the rest of the caravan is floating relative to earth (carpet over wooden floors, and rubber tyres to earth). Even within the floating electrical system of the van, if there was a fault and the sink somehow became live, the only way I could get a shock would be to touch the sink and poke my other finger into an earth or neutral pin at the same time. Not a very likely set of circumstances, although not entirely fool-proof. This is why I have the disclaimers. The difficulty in actually completing a circuit from Active to Neutral / Earth is what makes it so difficult to get a shock in this situation, as I see it.
@@TheMusingGreg so your willing to risk your life to save a few dollars on getting it done by a licensed electrician? It’s these kind of videos which kill people. Not only is it not properly wired but there is no isolation devices and no RCD. It’s an accident waiting to happen.
I understand your thinking, but to answer your question; knowing what I do about electricity, about this specific setup and with the theory I explained in my last comment, I'm comfortable with this.
I would be interested in your analysis of my previous reply and, as I see it, how difficult it would be to actually get a shock, which ultimately is what the standards are there to prevent. Is there some other more likely way someone could get a shock which I've missed?
I'm not telling anyone else to do it, I'm just explaining what I did. If people choose to copy this or so something similar it is at their own risk. I would certainly not advise a novice DIY'er to take this on with a different setup
In New Zealand, any 240 v.a.c work on a caravan must be completed by a licensed electrician. Your setup is entirely illegal. You are being irresponsible with this posting.
In that case, don't follow this information guide. As per the disclaimer in the video description, "This is for information purposes only, so if you decide to do this you do so at your own risk."
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you flogger